# The Moral Animal 2023 cohorts transcripts

## Cohort 1

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okay Welcome to our new module

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theultimate in the 2023 cours is called

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the moral

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animal

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um what we're going to do in this module

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is um a lot of first person conversation

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trying to get into this concept slowly

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through

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conversation um

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um uh and um there will be prompts so um

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let's though start by spending 10 or 15

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minutes while we wait for people to come

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in um um with questions or comments or

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on on um what this module is about or um

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I know that I also put up the

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individuation because I I kind of wanted

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you to have time to watch the origins of

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the self series again and it's a kind of

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it's a lot of um a lot of time there so

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uh we'll spend F another 12 minutes to

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quarter hour uh just open conversation

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here and then uh let people L skis come

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in and then we'll go into our prompts in

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the breakout

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rooms

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okay

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and we got some new faces hi Cavin or

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Cavin Cavin

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Cavin Cavin Cavin and where are you from

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Cavin Toronto Toronto there's a lot

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happening in

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Toronto um

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yeah well welcome Jump Right In

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Here

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okay I'll

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start uh as I'm sitting here thinking

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about the rest of the year here in the

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popup school I recall

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watching the um Sydney poer video clip

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movie

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clip and I don't really have a lot to

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say right

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now it feels

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like oh you know what you said Bonnie uh

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I can't remember in what session it was

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there's so many

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but you felt like the popup school we

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were at an edge of some

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kind when

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he

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patier settled

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into this loving relationship with his

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father and said there's no way for you

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to

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understand you are a black man and I am

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a

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man what that meant to me to us when we

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watched it was there's no way to go

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back

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generationally once you

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are the self moral animal that you are

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you can't go back and maybe you can go

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forward and it feels like uh that has

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something to do with Where We

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Are

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we as a popup School Gathering

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group yeah and you know they don't make

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movies like that anymore like when he

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was staring but um you know when he's

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mad at his father he's not individuated

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yet right and then of course the music

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in his face changes the music tells you

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that the transformation has been made

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but yes what you said was beautiful and

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it allows for um when you individuate it

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allows for you to

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love for the first time and it gets out

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of the structure when you individuate of

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being his father's

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son um so all of that is

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is it's just such a powerful clip I've

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used it for years in my Master's course

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course

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um and yes in how this man is more moral

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than his father but not in the sense

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that he looks at his father as not a

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moral person it's like the viewfinder

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has

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opened yeah he doesn't look at his

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father as a bad

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person

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it's a kind of morality that's not

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relativistic I'm more moral than you

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it's discontinuous in a pockle

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change

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he um um I didn't think about him not

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having individuated when he was angry

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and then having individuated afterwards

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and how I I experience that when I feel

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into that is

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that when he's angry um his father has

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something of his his own um capacity to

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choose for himself his somehow still

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living inside of his father he's

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fighting his father

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um because he needs his father to change

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in order for him to feel good with his

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choice and then he turns around he says

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okay this is

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mine I I can

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choose and it doesn't matter if he

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doesn't agree with me so he can turn

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around and love his father because he's

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taken that part of himself

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back

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and I know that you're all thinking

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about this already so I'll State the

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obvious there's there's a collective

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analog to it also right to individuate

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from the cultural father or the cultural

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whatever I mean there we were talking

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about the compound individual and then

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the collective and and

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and um

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when we talk about the new

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human um it'll be more it'll be less

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this kind

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of lifespan journey to individuate

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yourself on the personal level and more

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about how does the species

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individuate

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from I don't know but we you know we'll

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talk about that but yeah so both are in

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play um certainly there are very few

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individuated people that I know of

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all those years

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teaching very very few people

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individuate and people individuate when

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when they're much older um but some

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people don't individuate even after

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their parents die from this personal

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kind of um so to then to think about the

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species component is is a interesting

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thing um

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yeah

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okay we're going to go to breakout

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groups and the prompt is

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um tell a

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story when you were

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young and you first saw something an

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adult did and you knew it was

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wrong and talk a little about how did

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you know it was wrong and the biomarkers

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of

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it so that's part one and it can bleed

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into a conversation

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around what happened to that feeling

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that you used when you're

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young what happened to your opinion

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about that that you saw when you were

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young as you Grew Older does that make

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sense so not just tell the story and try

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to remember the biomarker but what

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happened both with that feeling and that

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particular

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issue now how do you understand it now

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and how did it change from the first

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instance to how it lives in you

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now so we're going to go to the top of

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the hour because I think it's

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really um yeah it's really

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productive um

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and um let me do the breakout rooms why

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is it not there it used to be right

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there so we're gon have three to four

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participants so it's a really nice

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conversation and

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um I want to let's

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see I'm going to

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and who's got

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four I kind of want to I'm trying to

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make it so David the four one is David

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and uh yeah so that's fine okay all

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right so I'll see you oh options

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I'll see you at the top of the hour

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enjoy your conversation and enjoy your

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company

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[Music]

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that was

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fun yeah

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Rich we have different prompts for this

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module so next the other ones are pretty

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are good too so just so you

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know

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okay we shall report

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back

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that was fantastic

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um catala summed it up so well right at

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the end that we humans are the moral

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organ of

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nature

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yeah such a good chat I have no idea how

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to summarize it for everyone else like

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I'd love to share

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it okay

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Marie want to give it a

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go I think it's worth Marie sharing the

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the that story from your childhood very

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young oh gosh

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um um

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yeah this one got kind of batted around

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a bit so I had an experience similar to

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Charlie where at first um neither one of

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us we kept we could think of things that

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we overlooked as children like that

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we're wrong that we can look back in

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retrospect and just

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like um give a pass to it and I then I

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hit on an experience um when I was is

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about um between 2 and a half and 3 and

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my mother was getting

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married um for the first time and I went

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into um protest like violent

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protest and and then I was like first

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thought about that so that came to mind

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and I was like there it is and then I

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was like but wait a minute I was was

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that just like protest

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about what I didn't want to happen like

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how is that a a moral move and

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um and then eventually it came back

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around to that

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pro-social impulse in that lives in all

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of us um from our animal nature around

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the responsibility of our caregivers to

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actually

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care and um and that that was perhaps

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what was I I sensed was um the

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violation that sort of sparked my

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protest

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um so I'll let yeah I'll just kind of

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stop there and I would only add that

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Marie's example I found the most

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poignant because she was like

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pre you know pre- logic system online

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right so really more in touch you could

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say with with animal nature she wasn't

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like thinking her way through that

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something was

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wrong there was a lot more in our

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conversation

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if others want to fill in

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the main thing for me that I like really

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hung on to was like and I agree with you

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completely Mar it was like this like I

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weirdly did

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expect expect more from the adult I felt

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like but this is me redoing it now but

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yeah my biggest thing was like I

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couldn't see the reason it wasn't that

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like they did the thing but I was like

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what was the reason like it didn't line

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up and that was what was wrong but I

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wasn't really like thinking wrong at the

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time but I was just like what's the

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reason like where's the reason or the it

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was like didn't seem reasonable and that

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was

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like the the drop in the the shock like

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didn't unexpected so I didn't not

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expect them to do the specific behaviors

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I

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yeah great

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com I just want to Ping on that word um

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reasonableness

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because um it'll become part of what I

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write about because more and there's two

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things here so um most of the

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moral um philosophy we have um work at

00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:55.679
work today is uh moral reasoning and

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what call it's based on judgmental r

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nationalism so that's kind of what Katie

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was saying and so if you ask people if

00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.919
the poor man should steal the medicine

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to save his wife even young people say

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yes but the way they

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rationalize their decision gets more

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complex we got to talk about that too

00:19:19.919 --> 00:19:21.679
this week or this

00:19:21.679 --> 00:19:26.000
month um but and and so judgment so it's

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called judgmental rationalism

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and uh Rory Bashar uh wrote about that I

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change it to

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evaluative

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reasonableness so this notion what you

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just said catala is very is is very

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spot-on from this

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perspective

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because a child is not trying to figure

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out whether it's rational but there's

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some muscle in the moral animal whether

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it's

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reasonable and if you don't have enough

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information you can't evaluate valuate

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it so that's a fancy word that I'm going

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to use but this notion of

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evaluative

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reasonableness and that's what and the

00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.799
reason why this is important is it can

00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.000
move into the nonhuman

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world you could ask is it reasonable for

00:20:15.159 --> 00:20:15.880
a

00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.840
tree to be displaced this way see it's

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not rational to ask it's not a rational

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kind of question but can we evaluate

00:20:23.760 --> 00:20:26.600
things from this notion of

00:20:26.600 --> 00:20:28.720
reasonableness and I just want hold on

00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.520
to that because uh yeah because when you

00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:34.679
when you go back to your experience and

00:20:34.679 --> 00:20:37.679
you saying but what was the reason you

00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:40.120
can get in touch with the physical sense

00:20:40.120 --> 00:20:44.480
of like there's a broad spectrum of Acts

00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:49.320
we can be with if we can evaluate them

00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:52.440
as reasonable in a certain context blah

00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:54.400
blah blah blah blah but that's a very

00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.640
that word is a very and the way you

00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.159
captured it the way you said it is is

00:20:59.159 --> 00:21:01.559
why that word we're going to displace

00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.679
the concept of judgmental rationalism

00:21:04.679 --> 00:21:07.360
with evaluative

00:21:07.360 --> 00:21:09.600
reasonableness um and I just love the

00:21:09.600 --> 00:21:12.400
way you you brought that out and that

00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.400
the child already has

00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.720
this kind of capacity or lives in that

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.880
space yeah confession you helped me with

00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.960
that oh so that was I like I was reading

00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.000
your article and like it was like coming

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.799
up on that and then I was able to like

00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:33.919
go back to or like to things that like

00:21:33.919 --> 00:21:36.159
was just like going around and I

00:21:36.159 --> 00:21:37.840
was like that was why and then

00:21:37.840 --> 00:21:40.039
it just like kind of lined up yeah

00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:41.679
perfect that was why because I

00:21:41.679 --> 00:21:43.080
was going back and forth and I was like

00:21:43.080 --> 00:21:44.919
doing that thing of just like little

00:21:44.919 --> 00:21:47.159
like I didn't get it why I you got that

00:21:47.159 --> 00:21:49.880
it was pointing to a you know very

00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.320
primordial Thing versus

00:21:52.320 --> 00:21:55.760
just madeup word of philosophers like

00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.120
actually from you yeah yeah yeah yeah

00:21:58.120 --> 00:22:01.080
that made it click yeah yeah

00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:03.080
excellent does that make sense to

00:22:03.080 --> 00:22:04.760
everyone that one little

00:22:04.760 --> 00:22:08.679
move um yeah and maybe that's a little

00:22:08.679 --> 00:22:11.080
bit of you know kind of I think it it

00:22:11.080 --> 00:22:12.960
clicks on what Marie was saying a little

00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.840
bit too you know like like

00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:20.480
uh anyways yeah what are what are there

00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.120
some other

00:22:22.120 --> 00:22:25.919
experiences I just want to add that we

00:22:25.919 --> 00:22:28.640
we talked about coherence

00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:32.000
and lack of coherence and

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:36.200
connectivity and um AA was saying that

00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:37.480
when she felt

00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.640
connected then she

00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:45.679
had um that was kind of a the barometer

00:22:45.679 --> 00:22:49.080
I think of of right and wrong and uh and

00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:52.600
and also the gave energy for Action I

00:22:52.600 --> 00:22:55.919
think a I'm not sure if I quite saying

00:22:55.919 --> 00:23:01.159
that right but but the the sense of um

00:23:01.159 --> 00:23:03.840
coherence was

00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:07.520
uh was a way of of navigating and and

00:23:07.520 --> 00:23:08.679
making

00:23:08.679 --> 00:23:11.880
sense and then another term that came up

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.600
for us was

00:23:14.600 --> 00:23:16.440
sovereignty

00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:19.880
um and when that sovereignty

00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:20.880
is

00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.919
[Music]

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:27.200
um uh oppressed in some way or

00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:31.000
disconnected then then then there's a

00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.880
lack then there becomes a lack of

00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:36.039
connectivity and

00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.039
um

00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.760
so yeah

00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:50.039
um since we're

00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:53.039
unmuted

00:23:53.360 --> 00:23:56.880
um what also came

00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.240
up

00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:00.880
at least

00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.159
for cin and

00:24:03.159 --> 00:24:07.400
myself was this

00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:13.919
uh I think for agas oh and I

00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:19.080
think yeah I think for Phoebe as well

00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:22.600
that when we're young and

00:24:22.600 --> 00:24:26.080
notice those outside are power tripping

00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:29.279
or in a control

00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.799
mechanism that we lose

00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.080
our

00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:39.360
um that feeling like Cindy P had when he

00:24:39.360 --> 00:24:40.960
dropped into his

00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.559
individuation that love or that

00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:45.960
coherence or whatever you want to call

00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:51.440
it when we out there sense our tripping

00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:54.480
happening and

00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:56.760
I um

00:24:56.760 --> 00:24:58.360
recognized

00:24:58.360 --> 00:25:01.640
confessed if you will that I picked up

00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:03.000
that

00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.600
power

00:25:04.600 --> 00:25:07.760
potential in controlling my family

00:25:07.760 --> 00:25:11.279
through my young adult

00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.360
life and I've moved

00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:18.840
into a more

00:25:18.840 --> 00:25:21.039
mature

00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.240
unattached view of what happens outside

00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:29.679
of myself to be in that loving space

00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.399
so my point is

00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.159
that there's this natural intelligent

00:25:42.159 --> 00:25:46.320
moral sense that I had as a child that I

00:25:46.320 --> 00:25:50.120
still have and have moved closer

00:25:50.120 --> 00:25:54.360
to with experience in

00:25:56.679 --> 00:25:59.679
life

00:26:15.679 --> 00:26:19.159
I can pick up because it connects um we

00:26:19.159 --> 00:26:24.159
we spent a lot of time lingering on how

00:26:24.159 --> 00:26:26.640
those instances like a moment in time

00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.039
what a reaction was and and how it

00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.799
propagated you know how it still lived

00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:34.600
in us how the narrative self really kind

00:26:34.600 --> 00:26:38.480
of constructed identity around it and um

00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:40.640
specific Logics for Action when when

00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:42.960
being in similar situations or beliefs

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.320
about the world

00:26:45.320 --> 00:26:49.039
and you know like one belief that could

00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:50.679
potentially form for someone obviously

00:26:50.679 --> 00:26:52.880
oh well it's just a doggy dog world out

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.120
there and so everybody for himself and

00:26:55.120 --> 00:26:57.399
that can be become like a principle for

00:26:57.399 --> 00:27:00.880
one to live one's life by but we came to

00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.960
the space of care like oh my God how are

00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:06.240
we not going to Sandra said oh my God I

00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.080
got to ask my children now like what

00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:10.799
what did I possibly do you know to screw

00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.480
them up and um Ray was like thinking

00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:17.440
about his students and so we we actually

00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.679
came there like this

00:27:19.679 --> 00:27:24.000
um like uh yeah a deepening care for the

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:27.640
moment and and her own behavior and also

00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.399
asking retrospectively to did we have a

00:27:30.399 --> 00:27:32.799
choice and also going not just taking

00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:37.039
that moment to be our lives but also

00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.960
okay so how did the be adult in question

00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:43.600
you know come to that kind of behavior

00:27:43.600 --> 00:27:46.159
in their life right so the whole let's

00:27:46.159 --> 00:27:48.799
say the whole lineage of that and how

00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.080
morality is shaped as this kind of uh

00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:53.559
lineage let's

00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:57.240
say um was something that we lingered on

00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:58.720
as well as well as the necessity

00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:00.480
actually for these events to happen and

00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:01.880
so we you know have stopped these

00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:03.760
idealizing projections that we may have

00:28:03.760 --> 00:28:06.720
on adults as an initiator for our uh

00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.559
individuation to some extent as well so

00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:11.440
these were some of the elements that we

00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:15.200
uh talked about so Sandra Ray you want

00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.440
to add something to

00:28:22.159 --> 00:28:24.880
that yeah just briefly that was a really

00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.720
good summation of where how we started

00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.279
and where it went yeah thank you

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:36.919
Evo yeah I think you captured so much of

00:28:36.919 --> 00:28:39.519
it and just

00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:44.240
the there was such a um a deeper sense

00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:49.360
of the interconnection of everything and

00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:54.039
the the grace of that

00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:56.120
interconnectedness the sense of our

00:28:56.120 --> 00:28:58.080
Ingress and

00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:03.320
um being ingressed upon and

00:29:03.320 --> 00:29:07.200
uh you know for me it it kind

00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:12.080
of made compound individual that term

00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:14.720
make a lot more sense like I could

00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:20.039
literally feel that compounding in my

00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:29.320
body

00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:35.799
yeah first off hi cevin I'm so glad

00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:38.519
you're here it's so great to see you um

00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:41.760
welcome um I found I really I really

00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:44.399
like this question and um the biomarkers

00:29:44.399 --> 00:29:47.000
part was something that I was um really

00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.559
curious about and Susan said something

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.919
that really was powerful um she was uh

00:29:53.919 --> 00:29:57.159
talking about um kind of how do you know

00:29:57.159 --> 00:29:58.760
if it's moral or not and she she said

00:29:58.760 --> 00:30:00.799
something like um anything that takes

00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.480
away from the aliveness of the child you

00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:06.200
know there's there's like that's that's

00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.080
like a red flag you know she was talking

00:30:08.080 --> 00:30:10.720
about um being with family and some kids

00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.080
jumping on the couch and the parents

00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:15.000
being like stop that don't do that and

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.240
just noticing the the liveness draining

00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:18.480
like a biomarker just being this

00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.799
aliveness draining out like posture

00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:24.720
collapsing just sort of um that sort of

00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:26.880
being an indicator that something's off

00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.640
and um she said something really uh

00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.799
thought-provoking too that a lot of

00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:34.679
parents can't handle like they they're

00:30:34.679 --> 00:30:36.919
not alive inside or their aliveness

00:30:36.919 --> 00:30:39.399
isn't really online and so they can't

00:30:39.399 --> 00:30:41.600
handle the full aliveness of of of their

00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:44.880
of the children um and then just sort of

00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.720
realizing well actually the children's

00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.880
aliveness is a is an invitation for the

00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:51.120
adults to join in into it and and come

00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:53.760
alive so um I was just really thankful

00:30:53.760 --> 00:30:56.519
for um Susan's Reflections there and

00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:58.960
then we also we're talking about um or

00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:01.679
another thing that that um was

00:31:01.679 --> 00:31:03.720
highlighted for me was how trust is just

00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:05.679
so freely given and children children

00:31:05.679 --> 00:31:08.200
just so freely give trust that some of

00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:09.760
us were having a hard time actually kind

00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:12.559
of going well that was wrong um just

00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:14.600
because you're just in this place of

00:31:14.600 --> 00:31:16.360
trusting your the adults or giving you

00:31:16.360 --> 00:31:20.720
the right origin story or the um so

00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:22.960
those were some things that were came up

00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.240
in our

00:31:26.159 --> 00:31:29.159
group

00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:41.080
yeah I would say too for for me um a

00:31:41.080 --> 00:31:43.720
different experience it was extremely

00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:47.840
clear to me and I could still really

00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:50.600
sense it in my body that what was going

00:31:50.600 --> 00:31:52.600
on was extremely

00:31:52.600 --> 00:31:56.919
wrong and I've always like this is just

00:31:56.919 --> 00:32:00.159
like one incident in my life that keeps

00:32:00.159 --> 00:32:03.039
me connected to that part of myself that

00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:05.519
I can trust

00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:08.679
um from a very young age like there was

00:32:08.679 --> 00:32:11.200
just this awareness and

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.600
this um

00:32:14.600 --> 00:32:16.320
observation

00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:19.000
that I could I can't you know I really

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.200
can't

00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:24.760
trust um these people who happen to be

00:32:24.760 --> 00:32:28.480
my parents and

00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.200
um you know and I see all the ways that

00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.519
that sort of shaped

00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:36.760
me um but I was very it was interesting

00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:38.320
to reflect

00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:42.159
on um these questions um to get a sense

00:32:42.159 --> 00:32:44.320
of that like what Holly was just saying

00:32:44.320 --> 00:32:46.240
like

00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.919
that as children we really do have a

00:32:49.919 --> 00:32:52.840
deep awareness of what's right and wrong

00:32:52.840 --> 00:32:56.600
or you know just the world around us and

00:32:56.600 --> 00:32:59.480
to sort sort of differentiate that from

00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:00.480
the

00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:05.120
conditioning um that's coming toward us

00:33:05.120 --> 00:33:08.039
um all the time you know

00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:14.080
um so yeah I really I appreciated the

00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:28.960
question

00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.240
it strikes me that there's almost a

00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.639
tension there right because one of the I

00:33:44.639 --> 00:33:46.760
think you

00:33:46.760 --> 00:33:51.000
know the morality you know sort

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:54.000
of primary elements that we're born with

00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.960
is

00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.960
to trust that there are wise adults to

00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.799
help us cultivate that

00:34:25.879 --> 00:34:28.879
right

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.240
again I think part of why we're calling

00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:37.760
this the moral animal

00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:39.639
is I mean I'm going to make some

00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:41.119
statements that I don't really believe

00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:44.359
because they're way too one-sided but

00:34:44.359 --> 00:34:48.520
just to to show the kind

00:34:49.399 --> 00:34:52.440
of things that are in play all right so

00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.240
they're they're much more extreme than I

00:34:54.240 --> 00:34:57.680
actually believe myself but

00:34:57.680 --> 00:35:01.839
you know if so we we we have this

00:35:01.839 --> 00:35:05.880
innate muscle that even if we don't

00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:07.960
understand it it it it wants to

00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:09.560
understand it wants to know the reason

00:35:09.560 --> 00:35:12.320
it wants to well it's children are

00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.119
pretty open

00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:19.320
to flowing with all kinds of things you

00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.079
know I mean they have temper tantrums

00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.040
and stuff but the partially is because

00:35:23.040 --> 00:35:28.280
they have no choice um um so but they

00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:29.920
strive

00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.920
for the reasons or they strive for a

00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:37.000
sense of coherence right so let me give

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:38.599
you an example I used to go fishing with

00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:42.440
my father and I had no

00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:44.680
problem uh putting the hook through the

00:35:44.680 --> 00:35:46.599
worm and catching a

00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:50.200
fish and we would go and and eat

00:35:50.200 --> 00:35:52.760
them but when my father caught a fish

00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.160
that was too small and not the right

00:35:55.160 --> 00:35:57.160
kind he would throw it against to rock

00:35:57.160 --> 00:36:00.319
and laugh and I knew somehow I knew that

00:36:00.319 --> 00:36:02.599
was

00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.920
wrong um I grew up I remember very

00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:09.960
vividly I must have been two years old

00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:11.720
on the third floor of my grandmother's

00:36:11.720 --> 00:36:14.000
house they had a closed in porch

00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.359
watching my father and his brother shoot

00:36:18.359 --> 00:36:22.119
birds and I knew it was

00:36:23.240 --> 00:36:28.720
wrong not you know in and

00:36:32.359 --> 00:36:34.839
yeah and for me I mean it wasn't like I

00:36:34.839 --> 00:36:37.040
was afraid of my father they weren't

00:36:37.040 --> 00:36:39.359
violent it it was something they did

00:36:39.359 --> 00:36:44.200
stupid they thought it was fun you know

00:36:47.359 --> 00:36:49.000
um

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.920
yeah and and I knew that that my parents

00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:54.680
were capable of loving but they just one

00:36:54.680 --> 00:36:57.200
time we had these little kids over

00:36:57.200 --> 00:37:00.079
and my mother this is when we lived in

00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.599
this it was kind of like the projects

00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:05.800
but my mother had a big bag of candy

00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.640
when these two little black kids came

00:37:08.640 --> 00:37:11.200
over and stuck their hands in the candy

00:37:11.200 --> 00:37:13.640
then my mother she wouldn't let usat

00:37:13.640 --> 00:37:15.480
touch the candy after that she threw it

00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:19.680
away you know and I just knew I was

00:37:19.680 --> 00:37:23.640
like these people like I mean what the

00:37:23.640 --> 00:37:26.040
way I would say it now I they're just

00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:28.599
you just

00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:31.319
like there's something wrong with this

00:37:31.319 --> 00:37:33.359
picture you know you're you're young so

00:37:33.359 --> 00:37:37.119
you don't have a words in your head or

00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:41.280
something um

00:37:44.520 --> 00:37:48.480
so these positions you're told are

00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:52.319
naive and as you grow up

00:37:52.319 --> 00:37:56.000
you like Evo said you know you get the

00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.839
context of in which supposedly they're

00:37:57.839 --> 00:38:00.160
not wrong

00:38:00.160 --> 00:38:02.599
anymore and that to me so here's the

00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:05.240
provocative statement is what lineage is

00:38:05.240 --> 00:38:08.680
lineage is the propagation of the of the

00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:11.319
illusion that these things are not wrong

00:38:11.319 --> 00:38:14.560
based upon this

00:38:15.319 --> 00:38:17.560
teaching okay so that's what I'm saying

00:38:17.560 --> 00:38:20.200
I don't really believe that but but uh

00:38:20.200 --> 00:38:23.119
you can put it there and the and the

00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:25.200
thing we're saying is what what

00:38:25.200 --> 00:38:27.640
Charlie's saying yes adults should

00:38:27.640 --> 00:38:29.359
support that but what they should

00:38:29.359 --> 00:38:32.000
support is not the lineage teaching of

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:34.960
what's right and wrong but the muscle

00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:36.720
that's already there the potential

00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:39.520
that's already there to reflect back the

00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:41.520
process of someone growing into their

00:38:41.520 --> 00:38:43.240
potential as a moral

00:38:43.240 --> 00:38:46.040
animal and knowing

00:38:46.040 --> 00:38:50.359
that it will be evolutionarily in the

00:38:50.359 --> 00:38:54.640
future so you can't really assess the

00:38:54.640 --> 00:38:57.160
content you have to grow the

00:38:57.160 --> 00:39:00.160
character with the seed that's already

00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:02.920
there and we don't have any lineages

00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:05.359
that do

00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:09.200
this we have some people who practice

00:39:09.200 --> 00:39:12.119
that but lineages are

00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:15.800
codifications of they're exclus they're

00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:18.319
you know they're like exclusion

00:39:18.319 --> 00:39:21.520
principles um so the the notion of the

00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:24.920
nor moral animal moves away from how

00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:28.960
we've always codified morality

00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:32.160
into understanding that it it's it's

00:39:32.160 --> 00:39:35.880
situated in a in an animal nature and

00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:42.440
then it's in uh so haror said

00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:46.640
animals um animals in nature there's

00:39:46.640 --> 00:39:49.960
there's incommensurable Goods it's good

00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.359
that the fox eats the rabbit so she can

00:39:53.359 --> 00:39:55.000
feed her babies and it's good that the

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.640
rabbit gets away so so she can eat their

00:39:57.640 --> 00:40:00.920
babies the thing is they have these have

00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.400
to coexist at the same time and when

00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:05.480
humans

00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:09.560
come we start creating exclusion

00:40:09.560 --> 00:40:13.720
principles right um and let's see what

00:40:13.720 --> 00:40:17.040
does he write here

00:40:17.040 --> 00:40:21.079
uh what frustrates purpose desire and

00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:25.359
choice what frustrates purpose desire

00:40:25.359 --> 00:40:26.880
choice

00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:28.119
and

00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:33.079
decision is purpose desire choice and

00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.200
decision so on the other side of the

00:40:35.200 --> 00:40:38.240
equation there's something in the human

00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:42.920
system that is purpose desire choice and

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.440
decision and then there's it can be

00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.160
frustrated by the same thing on the

00:40:47.160 --> 00:40:49.760
other side of the the condition so it's

00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.119
this level it's a meta way to look at

00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:57.079
morality that's deeper than um the kinds

00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:59.119
of

00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.119
codification um that we've had in the

00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.599
lineages OR in today developmental

00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.599
psychology

00:41:19.319 --> 00:41:22.599
um and then you know we're not trying to

00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:23.960
be retro

00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.599
romantic um if you you

00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.880
know if you watched

00:41:32.359 --> 00:41:38.440
the um short video of this guy who

00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:41.640
killed a mother and her

00:41:41.640 --> 00:41:44.640
children

00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.079
um it's not like you just grow up as a

00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:51.280
kid and you can't have any guidance and

00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:53.160
then you become moral I'm not I'm not

00:41:53.160 --> 00:41:55.839
saying that I'm saying that what has to

00:41:55.839 --> 00:41:58.760
be developed and supported and

00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.880
scaffolded is something that's more

00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:06.200
native to the individual than not now

00:42:06.200 --> 00:42:08.640
having said that there are also

00:42:08.640 --> 00:42:11.599
different capacities I mean all all

00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:15.599
animal species have um some people don't

00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:18.400
have very many pro-social skills all

00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.680
animal species have

00:42:20.680 --> 00:42:23.920
Psychopaths and there is a caring way to

00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:26.880
deal with it and then there's caring way

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.200
to deal with it um no species can

00:42:30.200 --> 00:42:34.480
survive with a psychopath to Pro to

00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:37.319
healthy individuals If the ratio gets

00:42:37.319 --> 00:42:40.079
too much then then it won't survive if

00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:43.960
you're a pro if you're Pro have to be a

00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:46.520
pro-social uh

00:42:46.520 --> 00:42:50.400
species um and there's a lot of videos

00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:53.520
on that how different species they

00:42:53.520 --> 00:42:56.160
usually don't kill the Psychopaths but

00:42:56.160 --> 00:43:01.480
but they um um they maintain them the

00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:02.920
way the

00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.760
way uh neighborhoods used to take care

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:10.000
of the drunk who was jerk and not really

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:13.319
um reliable around kid kids and stuff

00:43:13.319 --> 00:43:15.640
like that they somehow were able there

00:43:15.640 --> 00:43:20.319
was enough uh capacity in the social

00:43:20.319 --> 00:43:24.119
system to you know have one or two in

00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:25.880
the neighborhood that everybody knew

00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:28.680
about out um

00:43:28.680 --> 00:43:32.640
so we're not trying to say that just by

00:43:32.640 --> 00:43:35.720
being born of person you have this

00:43:35.720 --> 00:43:39.400
fantastic moral uh calculator inside of

00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:41.800
you or

00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:58.079
something

00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:31.599
Bonnie we we brought up the the

00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:34.319
incommensurable goods in our little

00:44:34.319 --> 00:44:36.640
group and by way of like you know nature

00:44:36.640 --> 00:44:40.440
doesn't care one way or the other um yet

00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.800
we are nature and and we care like what

00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:46.760
is it in us that cares and then Charlie

00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:50.680
was talking about a story around

00:44:50.680 --> 00:44:54.440
um what were the words you use like what

00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:56.800
I can get away with and it brought up

00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:00.079
the memory for me like when I was very

00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.599
young and nobody was around me and I

00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:04.760
littered you I was like I can get away

00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:06.880
with this and I started to walk away was

00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.800
like I can't get away with it I had to

00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:10.240
go back and pick it up because something

00:45:10.240 --> 00:45:12.559
in me yeah haed right so there's the

00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:15.200
lineage of good and bad which causes us

00:45:15.200 --> 00:45:18.319
to do horrific things on the planet um

00:45:18.319 --> 00:45:22.480
and then there's this innate

00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:24.760
caring yeah there's a couple of things

00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.640
there I remember my my father we used to

00:45:27.640 --> 00:45:30.079
have a woodwork you know like a little

00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.359
woodworking setup

00:45:32.359 --> 00:45:35.040
downstairs and he had underneath the

00:45:35.040 --> 00:45:36.680
stairs he had really nice wood and then

00:45:36.680 --> 00:45:39.000
he had junk wood and when he wasn't home

00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:40.920
I could play with the junk wood and saw

00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:42.319
it up and stuff and one day I was

00:45:42.319 --> 00:45:44.920
working on a project and I really

00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:47.960
needed one of these pieces of wood

00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:49.599
underneath the

00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.280
stairs and at first I just kind of like

00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:53.960
unconsciously went to get it and then

00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:56.960
I'm like uh oh I'm not allowed to take

00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:00.000
that wood um and this was a fair fair

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.720
rule you know I understood it as a fair

00:46:02.720 --> 00:46:07.040
rule um but then I said but then I then

00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:09.040
the whole thing starts but he'll never

00:46:09.040 --> 00:46:13.079
know and you know and but then I

00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:17.040
realized that I wanted it anyways and so

00:46:17.040 --> 00:46:18.880
I probably sinned in my mind it went

00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:20.920
around and around and around I can't

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.119
remember if I took it or not I just

00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.680
remember that whole

00:46:26.680 --> 00:46:30.280
uh complexity but in terms of incens

00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.839
goods so here's this is also another

00:46:32.839 --> 00:46:35.920
beautiful noticing because it's the

00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:37.480
question of whether

00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.800
morality should be based on values you

00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.119
know I had my conversation with Mark GNE

00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:46.079
yesterday was really good it'll come out

00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:48.240
this is we didn't talk about this but

00:46:48.240 --> 00:46:51.520
this is actually an interesting question

00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:54.599
should morals be based on

00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:58.079
values uh haror would say that human

00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:02.480
values are all Goods right they're all

00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.319
Goods uh it's good to belong to a

00:47:06.319 --> 00:47:08.280
patriarchal society where the men

00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:09.319
protect the

00:47:09.319 --> 00:47:12.480
women but it's also good for women to

00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:16.240
develop whole as whole people right uh

00:47:16.240 --> 00:47:18.640
on and on and on and he said that human

00:47:18.640 --> 00:47:20.960
values are incom they're all Goods

00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:23.480
that's what the term values is they're

00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:26.240
all Goods but they're incommensurable

00:47:26.240 --> 00:47:28.839
so now you're faced with the very

00:47:28.839 --> 00:47:32.000
interesting question is moral should

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:35.520
morality be coupled to a conversation

00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:37.880
around

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.839
values I so how do how do people

00:47:42.839 --> 00:47:45.720
currently uh deal with that question

00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:47.720
which is one way you know this whole

00:47:47.720 --> 00:47:50.160
course is like but it's not good enough

00:47:50.160 --> 00:47:52.079
because we still lived in a up

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:55.000
world and we're still escalating uh

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:57.720
Environmental destruction so we can't we

00:47:57.720 --> 00:48:01.319
have to be suspect of our even our

00:48:01.319 --> 00:48:03.920
relatively new uh

00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:05.880
interventions um and what I mean by

00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:08.800
relatively new are from 3,000 years ago

00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.240
when a lot of these lineages started to

00:48:11.240 --> 00:48:13.720
like 50 years ago developmental

00:48:13.720 --> 00:48:16.319
psychology around

00:48:16.319 --> 00:48:20.240
morality so you have for example the

00:48:20.240 --> 00:48:23.720
moral uh judgmental

00:48:23.720 --> 00:48:28.680
rationalism that uh um that

00:48:28.680 --> 00:48:32.400
Ukraine is got modern values and and

00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:34.720
Russia has premodern

00:48:34.720 --> 00:48:40.000
values um so we should be on the side of

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:45.520
Ukraine that is a very uh accepted

00:48:45.520 --> 00:48:51.720
widely spoken of uh defense of Ukraine

00:48:51.720 --> 00:48:55.680
right am I right um the same the same

00:48:55.680 --> 00:48:59.119
name is uh

00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.000
um well we'll just leave it that one the

00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:05.319
other one is extremely complex but um so

00:49:05.319 --> 00:49:08.799
you see this all the time that

00:49:08.799 --> 00:49:12.000
um um it's a it's a more sophisticated

00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.839
version of why we could exterminate the

00:49:14.839 --> 00:49:15.960
Native

00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:18.319
Americans uh because European culture

00:49:18.319 --> 00:49:20.520
was more advanced I mean European

00:49:20.520 --> 00:49:23.760
culture was from a certain set of value

00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:26.200
sphere uh more advanced

00:49:26.200 --> 00:49:30.200
of course all cultures justify their

00:49:30.200 --> 00:49:34.119
values spectrum by making themselves

00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.440
more advanced right um

00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:41.359
so I I I'm I'm just I this this is

00:49:41.359 --> 00:49:44.599
provocative but um this this question

00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.640
that is problematizes the relationship

00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:52.040
between values and uh as we understand

00:49:52.040 --> 00:49:56.680
them and uh morality and and I would say

00:49:56.680 --> 00:50:00.960
that um they they should be more I think

00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.839
I I I would I would claim that values

00:50:03.839 --> 00:50:06.359
are incommensurable and morality is

00:50:06.359 --> 00:50:08.720
something

00:50:12.160 --> 00:50:15.119
else does that make sense I know I

00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.640
didn't solve anything I don't know if

00:50:17.640 --> 00:50:19.760
we're going to solve anything but at

00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:21.920
least we can avoid some traps and keep

00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:26.920
our I our ideas open

00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:30.799
um so I use the word evaluative because

00:50:30.799 --> 00:50:34.079
we are evaluating

00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:36.760
something right it's a process of

00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.319
evaluating something but I don't have

00:50:40.319 --> 00:50:43.720
tokens of here's a value over here and

00:50:43.720 --> 00:50:45.559
here's a value over there and this one's

00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:47.760
more moral so we we're we're

00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:50.520
acknowledging that the moral organ has

00:50:50.520 --> 00:50:53.079
to be

00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:56.680
evaluative

00:50:56.680 --> 00:51:00.280
so we're taking the verb part of values

00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:02.799
and separating them as if they were

00:51:02.799 --> 00:51:06.559
things that we could quantify which is

00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:07.960
rational

00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:09.599
judgment

00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:12.359
um yeah

00:51:12.359 --> 00:51:15.240
so this is some of the way we're trying

00:51:15.240 --> 00:51:19.160
to shift shift this

00:51:21.240 --> 00:51:22.920
territory Bonnie what do you say

00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:24.640
incommensurable does that mean they're

00:51:24.640 --> 00:51:25.960
like

00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:27.839
I don't know isomorphic are incompatible

00:51:27.839 --> 00:51:29.319
or you kind of have to choose one over

00:51:29.319 --> 00:51:32.280
the other there's no way to adjudicate

00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.760
between them right kind of like should I

00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:38.040
exactly which one's better well they're

00:51:38.040 --> 00:51:42.319
both goods and there's no way to

00:51:42.319 --> 00:51:45.280
adjudicate uh and

00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:50.559
so uh yeah what's better blue or red or

00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.160
orange well they can't if you put them

00:51:53.160 --> 00:51:56.040
all together you get black so

00:51:56.040 --> 00:51:58.000
they they don't

00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:03.040
survive reducing into each other um but

00:52:03.040 --> 00:52:05.440
there's no way to adjudicate adjudicate

00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:08.079
them there's no other place from which

00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:11.960
you can then adjudicate uh adjudicate

00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:15.440
them you know haror said just like we as

00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:18.520
humans can see that the natural systems

00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:20.720
benefit from that the fact that these

00:52:20.720 --> 00:52:22.040
purposes are

00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:24.480
incommensurable if we could be God we

00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.599
could look in be happy that there's all

00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:29.599
these values in the system but

00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:31.799
understand that they're

00:52:31.799 --> 00:52:34.880
incommensurable there's no way to they

00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:36.200
they

00:52:36.200 --> 00:52:40.200
they they work out it's this or that

00:52:40.200 --> 00:52:42.559
either the fox kills the rabbit or the

00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:45.200
rabbit gets away and they're both Goods

00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:48.000
but you can't adjudicate you can't argue

00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:48.920
your

00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:51.640
way um and of course we do all the time

00:52:51.640 --> 00:52:54.720
you know do I want the the the owl was

00:52:54.720 --> 00:52:56.400
here the the other day and he's

00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:58.680
beautiful and he wants to eat my duck

00:52:58.680 --> 00:53:00.720
and I feel

00:53:00.720 --> 00:53:07.280
myself oscillating you know um but

00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.119
ultimately so hard will go on to say and

00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:12.680
this is why God actually doesn't get

00:53:12.680 --> 00:53:15.440
involved because there's no way to

00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:18.599
adjudicate them even if you're

00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:21.760
omnipotent it the they just that's the

00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:24.480
their nature of values is there's no no

00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:25.880
way to adjudicate

00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.880
them

00:53:30.799 --> 00:53:33.960
um B I'm curious how this relates to uh

00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:35.680
Jonathan Height's moral foundations

00:53:35.680 --> 00:53:37.079
Theory are you familiar with that where

00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:37.799
it's

00:53:37.799 --> 00:53:40.559
like he kind of

00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.720
poses five different pillars of like

00:53:43.720 --> 00:53:47.359
there's sanctity or

00:53:47.359 --> 00:53:49.680
 I forget what they are there's like

00:53:49.680 --> 00:53:51.880
you know liberals might judge Fair

00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:53.720
fairness is more important conservatives

00:53:53.720 --> 00:53:55.760
might judge Authority

00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:58.680
I don't know but um some of those words

00:53:58.680 --> 00:54:01.160
were kind of coming up um when people

00:54:01.160 --> 00:54:02.680
were describing their different stories

00:54:02.680 --> 00:54:04.839
like there's you know values

00:54:04.839 --> 00:54:06.599
like

00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:09.839
maybe like playing on the bouncing on

00:54:09.839 --> 00:54:13.920
the cushions and the parents get mad

00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:17.720
because there's some value of like

00:54:17.720 --> 00:54:19.400
discipline and not breaking the rules

00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:21.119
that goes back to like you know Brothers

00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.480
Grims fairy tales where the kid goes

00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.839
outside too late and gets eaten by a or

00:54:25.839 --> 00:54:28.440
something

00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:30.599
um am I talking

00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:32.119
about

00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:35.240
um well there's a difference between you

00:54:35.240 --> 00:54:37.400
know there it has gotten worse we don't

00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.920
know when you talk to the average person

00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.760
it doesn't look as bad as the polarities

00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.680
that are supposedly you know you see on

00:54:45.680 --> 00:54:47.559
social media and you see in these

00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:49.680
analyses but what we're saying is that

00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:51.359
conservatives and Democrats have

00:54:51.359 --> 00:54:52.280
different

00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:54.680
values and you can't adjudicate between

00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:58.880
them the both good um the thing is about

00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:02.359
values is that they are coherent or or

00:55:02.359 --> 00:55:05.599
not coherent in certain contexts

00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:09.799
also right so

00:55:09.799 --> 00:55:13.480
um yeah so what you're saying yeah and

00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:16.720
and and then the game that people play

00:55:16.720 --> 00:55:21.039
is they use they they uh they use the

00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:24.200
context they use a metaphor so it's like

00:55:24.200 --> 00:55:26.599
well what if we just let kids jump on

00:55:26.599 --> 00:55:28.880
the couch and then you'll see that their

00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:32.039
context is within this metaphor of

00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:35.599
social Decay right and then people say

00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:38.000
but you know they have to be alive and

00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:42.119
your metaphor is something else um and

00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:44.640
the metaphors themselves can't

00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:50.319
adjudicate the values right so um

00:55:50.319 --> 00:55:52.039
so

00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:55.359
um what the what we're saying is I mean

00:55:55.359 --> 00:55:58.240
what I'm talking about doesn't exist in

00:55:58.240 --> 00:56:03.000
the literature in in in in in I mean

00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:07.160
there are little pockets of this kind of

00:56:07.160 --> 00:56:11.000
conversation um

00:56:15.240 --> 00:56:18.920
but yeah so yes the a lot of people are

00:56:18.920 --> 00:56:20.960
talking about values and then noticing

00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.319
that

00:56:23.319 --> 00:56:25.640
values are getting more much more and

00:56:25.640 --> 00:56:27.079
more po

00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:28.760
polarized

00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:31.760
and

00:56:35.160 --> 00:56:38.079
um and then the question is can you make

00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:39.119
a moral

00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:41.280
judgment against these values and I'm

00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:42.160
saying no because they're

00:56:42.160 --> 00:56:45.119
incommensurable that's it's not the

00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.680
role I'm just trying to say that there's

00:56:47.680 --> 00:56:50.160
something sneaky and problematic about

00:56:50.160 --> 00:56:53.880
assigning values as the

00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:55.720
core

00:56:55.720 --> 00:56:57.599
um

00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:03.000
calculator or measuring stick of

00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:07.520
morality yeah a I almost called you

00:57:07.520 --> 00:57:10.480
David can't tell you A

00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.200
Part okay that's

00:57:13.200 --> 00:57:17.359
interesting uh so when you say the moral

00:57:17.359 --> 00:57:20.280
organ has to be

00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:23.520
evaluative what I'm wondering if what's

00:57:23.520 --> 00:57:26.160
in there is

00:57:26.160 --> 00:57:31.039
Choice um that it the value is like like

00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:34.599
putting um Choice into things like it

00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:36.960
stacking up reasons and this this value

00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:39.440
is better than this value for some

00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:42.720
because of content but choice is maybe

00:57:42.720 --> 00:57:47.119
more active in the moment in navigating

00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:50.160
and choice has to do with aliveness like

00:57:50.160 --> 00:57:52.920
what Susan was saying

00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:58.440
um choosing four aliveness and and

00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:05.359
um and then maybe Choice

00:58:05.359 --> 00:58:08.680
also I mean our choices can be driven by

00:58:08.680 --> 00:58:10.359
our patterns our

00:58:10.359 --> 00:58:15.160
fears um and they can be cause harm and

00:58:15.160 --> 00:58:17.359
probably every choice I don't know I

00:58:17.359 --> 00:58:19.880
don't know if every choice causes harm

00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:24.160
but maybe getting closer to morality

00:58:24.160 --> 00:58:28.839
might be where there's an

00:58:28.839 --> 00:58:30.839
allowance

00:58:30.839 --> 00:58:33.480
of

00:58:33.480 --> 00:58:38.240
uh a choice to be non-centralized

00:58:38.240 --> 00:58:41.440
and also

00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:45.480
um as as inclusive like you're choosing

00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.640
you're allowing the owl to have choice

00:58:47.640 --> 00:58:49.240
and you're allowing the duck to have

00:58:49.240 --> 00:58:52.880
choice and you know if you if you make a

00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:56.599
value like the the owl is more valuable

00:58:56.599 --> 00:58:59.480
than the duck because it's it's a

00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:02.520
species that's you know uh under you

00:59:02.520 --> 00:59:03.880
know stress or

00:59:03.880 --> 00:59:06.720
something but

00:59:06.720 --> 00:59:10.680
anyways it seems like the more we move

00:59:10.680 --> 00:59:15.799
towards allowing choice and um person

00:59:15.799 --> 00:59:17.400
people to have their own

00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.200
sovereignty that's more and more complex

00:59:20.200 --> 00:59:22.280
because how do we you know how do we

00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:23.920
actually be with each other if we're not

00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:26.280
all following

00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:30.400
but I I don't have any thing other than

00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:32.920
any conclusion there but I was hearing

00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:34.079
in

00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:38.200
evaluative not so much a mental process

00:59:38.200 --> 00:59:39.079
as

00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:43.400
maybe I want to choose this my energy is

00:59:43.400 --> 00:59:45.039
going in this direction this Choice

00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:46.680
feels

00:59:46.680 --> 00:59:49.799
good yeah so

00:59:49.799 --> 00:59:53.520
so yeah so the process of evaluating

00:59:53.520 --> 00:59:57.440
something also has a marker right and

00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.440
sometimes

01:00:00.640 --> 01:00:03.280
um what you know if you're in a position

01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:04.079
of

01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.039
choice um a lot of times just sitting

01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:10.640
with it until the B you know thinking it

01:00:10.640 --> 01:00:12.359
through the body of course you have to

01:00:12.359 --> 01:00:14.039
have done your work because if we're

01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:17.880
just reactionary and all this then the

01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:20.400
body's just reactionary so this is all

01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:26.280
taken with a grain of salt um but um

01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:30.280
choices is certainly um a big part of it

01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:32.200
because even if you don't do anything

01:00:32.200 --> 01:00:34.440
you know if you see

01:00:34.440 --> 01:00:37.400
someone a wife and a

01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:40.839
father arguing in the parking lot and a

01:00:40.839 --> 01:00:43.880
little kid standing there

01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:46.839
um do you make it worse if you know like

01:00:46.839 --> 01:00:49.559
at what point is these these are all

01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:51.920
interesting questions they're not

01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:57.839
obvious um and and

01:00:58.520 --> 01:01:02.480
um but the thing about Choice what I

01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.200
argue is that the act the act that you

01:01:05.200 --> 01:01:07.440
take is the truly transc that's what

01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:09.880
when we talk about Transcendence in in

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:12.839
religion I think that the actions you

01:01:12.839 --> 01:01:17.880
take are are is the Transcendent because

01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:20.839
they're always open you don't you have

01:01:20.839 --> 01:01:23.920
to act and you don't know it you can't

01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:25.760
it's you're evaluating and you're trying

01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:28.960
to find what's reasonable but you don't

01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:31.280
ultimately know what the consequences of

01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:33.280
your actions are should someone have

01:01:33.280 --> 01:01:35.520
killed Hitler when they got the

01:01:35.520 --> 01:01:39.000
chance uh we don't we don't know and so

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:42.720
you take some leap into this

01:01:42.720 --> 01:01:45.240
open-endedness you you leap into the

01:01:45.240 --> 01:01:48.599
open-endedness of the of the world uh

01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:50.720
when you're faced with a Moral Moral

01:01:50.720 --> 01:01:56.200
choice to one degree or another uh

01:01:56.200 --> 01:01:58.920
so

01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:03.240
um but if you know that

01:02:03.240 --> 01:02:06.240
then what you don't choose also doesn't

01:02:06.240 --> 01:02:09.319
seem so much like an enemy because you

01:02:09.319 --> 01:02:12.720
know it's it's open and yet you have to

01:02:12.720 --> 01:02:17.440
choose so that's a very uh and you know

01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:19.599
at when it's up to you and you have to

01:02:19.599 --> 01:02:23.359
choice you have to evaluate by

01:02:23.359 --> 01:02:28.039
some gift of God or Grace some context

01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:29.240
has

01:02:29.240 --> 01:02:32.599
to land as

01:02:32.599 --> 01:02:35.920
reasonable reasonable enough to

01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:38.400
choose and you're waiting it for it to

01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:41.440
land as reasonable which means in your

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.599
body in that feeling state that you had

01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:47.319
when you were a kid and that's the best

01:02:47.319 --> 01:02:49.160
you can do it land it I you know didn't

01:02:49.160 --> 01:02:51.440
I due diligence it's up to me I'm in

01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:52.319
this

01:02:52.319 --> 01:02:55.000
context uh and

01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:58.920
and I can feel my evaluator like all

01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:00.640
these different contexts moving in it

01:03:00.640 --> 01:03:05.240
but I'm waiting for something to land as

01:03:05.359 --> 01:03:08.200
reasonable and then I act on it and and

01:03:08.200 --> 01:03:10.839
know knowing that that it has an

01:03:10.839 --> 01:03:13.599
openness to it it's a it's yeah yeah I

01:03:13.599 --> 01:03:16.880
also want to bring in the collective or

01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:20.400
something because it seems like the when

01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:24.440
my decision is circumscribed by my good

01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:29.000
and my my body and whatever then you

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:30.680
know

01:03:30.680 --> 01:03:34.079
that's that has a certain experience and

01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:38.680
effect but but as I let that uh the the

01:03:38.680 --> 01:03:42.000
boundaries of that soften so that what

01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:45.319
feels like reasonable is really being

01:03:45.319 --> 01:03:47.440
informed by something Beyond me it might

01:03:47.440 --> 01:03:50.839
be Beed being informed by the group I'm

01:03:50.839 --> 01:03:52.520
with or it might even be informed by

01:03:52.520 --> 01:03:54.839
something larger where where larger

01:03:54.839 --> 01:03:56.960
forces seem to be working right now and

01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:59.720
this choic is there's a flow here so

01:03:59.720 --> 01:04:03.680
there's a um there's a spectrum on which

01:04:03.680 --> 01:04:04.839
that

01:04:04.839 --> 01:04:07.920
reasonableness yes okay this is very

01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.680
good so and I like the pace because we

01:04:10.680 --> 01:04:11.559
keep

01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:15.279
building so when you evaluate something

01:04:15.279 --> 01:04:17.760
what you you're referencing it to

01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:21.000
something is it good for me or is it

01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:23.720
good for my family or is it good and you

01:04:23.720 --> 01:04:27.240
keep going out right so you notice like

01:04:27.240 --> 01:04:31.279
the ego selfe is always evaluating

01:04:31.279 --> 01:04:33.720
experience positive or negative veence

01:04:33.720 --> 01:04:36.240
relative to itself the egocentric thing

01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:40.680
we need that um but you can take that

01:04:40.680 --> 01:04:45.480
same structure and open the identity of

01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:48.319
the evaluating experience positive or

01:04:48.319 --> 01:04:50.400
negative veilance on these different

01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:54.240
choices but the reference is no longer

01:04:54.240 --> 01:04:56.680
small it gets bigger and bigger and

01:04:56.680 --> 01:04:58.960
bigger

01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:02.240
okay then you have the new

01:05:02.240 --> 01:05:06.200
human who is

01:05:06.200 --> 01:05:08.640
evaluating maybe based

01:05:08.640 --> 01:05:11.839
on life some of you said

01:05:11.839 --> 01:05:17.079
that but the leap becomes like like like

01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:19.480
uh Sydney porier he went from a black

01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:22.920
man that's referencing this group to man

01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:25.559
human or no in this case man because he

01:05:25.559 --> 01:05:28.720
was a being a man he had to be a man and

01:05:28.720 --> 01:05:30.200
and and make a decision whether he was

01:05:30.200 --> 01:05:31.720
going to marry this

01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:33.640
woman

01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:37.480
um and so so that's a process and then

01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:40.760
you get into the religious question

01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:46.240
of sometimes that that context gets

01:05:46.240 --> 01:05:49.079
exhausted and then you evaluate based

01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:51.680
upon and you use the term higher you

01:05:51.680 --> 01:05:54.680
know something that is not just a

01:05:54.680 --> 01:05:56.799
quantitative the first one was more like

01:05:56.799 --> 01:05:58.559
quantitative right more and more people

01:05:58.559 --> 01:06:01.119
get included more and more

01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:03.920
perspectives um but then there's the the

01:06:03.920 --> 01:06:08.319
final move I guess is it's no longer a

01:06:08.319 --> 01:06:10.160
quantitative kind

01:06:10.160 --> 01:06:14.480
of expansion of the evaluative feature

01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:18.160
it's it's something what we would

01:06:18.160 --> 01:06:22.240
call higher or Transcendent or the moral

01:06:22.240 --> 01:06:25.680
good all these terms and and you know

01:06:25.680 --> 01:06:29.880
I'm just I'm just populating

01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:33.400
um how the conversations in so the first

01:06:33.400 --> 01:06:35.559
one is more like ethical so it's like a

01:06:35.559 --> 01:06:37.839
quantitative the be you know more good

01:06:37.839 --> 01:06:40.880
for more be beings and the second one is

01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:44.440
more of a religious uh

01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:46.640
qualitative uh

01:06:46.640 --> 01:06:49.640
leap

01:06:51.359 --> 01:06:54.279
um does that make sense because you yeah

01:06:54.279 --> 01:06:58.200
but then there's also a sense of being

01:06:58.200 --> 01:07:00.880
part of the whole of Nature and that

01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:05.160
there is a good that is evolving over

01:07:05.160 --> 01:07:10.720
time and that and that um maybe I'm not

01:07:10.720 --> 01:07:12.480
capable in

01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:14.079
my

01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:16.599
locality you know to orchestrate that or

01:07:16.599 --> 01:07:19.000
make choices but but maybe I can become

01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:21.559
more and more capable to participate in

01:07:21.559 --> 01:07:25.440
something that uh is inviting me because

01:07:25.440 --> 01:07:27.720
that's what it feels like especially the

01:07:27.720 --> 01:07:30.599
for me the last while it's like there's

01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:33.039
there's there's like the energy wants to

01:07:33.039 --> 01:07:36.640
go this way or you know and that can be

01:07:36.640 --> 01:07:39.319
woo woo that can be I can project all

01:07:39.319 --> 01:07:42.319
sorts of stuff onto that

01:07:42.319 --> 01:07:46.400
but but it does feel good

01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:50.039
to become less

01:07:50.039 --> 01:07:54.640
self-centered in that yes and and

01:07:54.640 --> 01:07:59.480
let me just talk around this so so um I

01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:02.839
I saw a short video this morning about

01:08:02.839 --> 01:08:05.160
you know the risk of

01:08:05.160 --> 01:08:09.240
AI and this guy said a AI has the

01:08:09.240 --> 01:08:13.760
potential to establish infinitely stable

01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:16.120
dictatorships because it would calculate

01:08:16.120 --> 01:08:19.640
the most good for the most

01:08:21.480 --> 01:08:25.400
people but that's not more

01:08:25.400 --> 01:08:27.839
right because it's not alive so

01:08:27.839 --> 01:08:29.279
basically we're saying there's this

01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:31.080
principle called

01:08:31.080 --> 01:08:34.359
aliveness or The Human Condition or

01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:39.239
something that is not just opening more

01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:42.359
context for more people I mean that we

01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:45.679
do all the time you know like like how

01:08:45.679 --> 01:08:48.759
I'm trying to make a decision about the

01:08:48.759 --> 01:08:51.120
in my organization and some people are

01:08:51.120 --> 01:08:53.080
going to suffer I mean there's only so

01:08:53.080 --> 01:08:55.080
many Goods to go around and I might say

01:08:55.080 --> 01:08:57.080
well how can I do the most good for the

01:08:57.080 --> 01:09:00.239
most people that's one move and it's an

01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:02.400
important one because most people

01:09:02.400 --> 01:09:05.040
operating evaluating things that is good

01:09:05.040 --> 01:09:08.199
for me so that move is very important

01:09:08.199 --> 01:09:10.120
but then there's this theological or

01:09:10.120 --> 01:09:13.679
religious move which says things like

01:09:13.679 --> 01:09:16.440
more life or more creativity or more

01:09:16.440 --> 01:09:19.159
advanced or more lined with God or you

01:09:19.159 --> 01:09:22.759
know and this is a interesting this is a

01:09:22.759 --> 01:09:24.880
different kind of move that we have to

01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:29.000
look at uh in the in this in this

01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:33.040
module um because it will often be a

01:09:33.040 --> 01:09:37.319
move that doesn't satisfy the most good

01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:40.319
for the most people it's not

01:09:40.319 --> 01:09:42.679
quantitative

01:09:42.679 --> 01:09:45.719
um and this is now we're into the the

01:09:45.719 --> 01:09:48.719
realm of true the first one is more like

01:09:48.719 --> 01:09:51.000
ethical an increasing ethical Embrace

01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:52.319
and the second one is more like a

01:09:52.319 --> 01:09:54.279
theological or religious

01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:57.199
conversation around morals they're both

01:09:57.199 --> 01:10:00.800
in play I'm not trying

01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:04.199
to the second one is particularly the

01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:07.159
first one most people agree on but it

01:10:07.159 --> 01:10:09.800
can driven to its conclusion create an

01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:13.760
AI that creates infinitely stable

01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:16.440
dictatorships and people say why why why

01:10:16.440 --> 01:10:18.239
do we want that because you've got more

01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:22.440
good for more people than ever and it's

01:10:22.440 --> 01:10:24.400
stable there will always be the case

01:10:24.400 --> 01:10:27.480
it'll always calculate that to be the

01:10:27.480 --> 01:10:30.120
case and that's a death sentence that's

01:10:30.120 --> 01:10:32.320
a that's that that's something we

01:10:32.320 --> 01:10:33.920
inherently not

01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:37.080
everybody but for us for me I inherently

01:10:37.080 --> 01:10:39.320
see it as a violation of something

01:10:39.320 --> 01:10:42.280
sacred in the

01:10:42.520 --> 01:10:47.520
universe but my argument I can't argue

01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:52.640
against the the I can't use the first

01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:55.640
argument

01:10:56.960 --> 01:11:00.480
um so the the word you

01:11:00.480 --> 01:11:04.120
demonia um is in in in the right

01:11:04.120 --> 01:11:06.040
direction because it says the greatest

01:11:06.040 --> 01:11:09.480
good for the greatest number of people

01:11:09.480 --> 01:11:12.520
but it means

01:11:12.640 --> 01:11:16.320
that it's not just sum summing over all

01:11:16.320 --> 01:11:19.600
the you know all the suffering and

01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:22.760
happiness it's saying that for every

01:11:22.760 --> 01:11:25.280
every Improvement in you there's an

01:11:25.280 --> 01:11:29.440
improvement in the whole it's not a a

01:11:29.440 --> 01:11:32.920
calculation kind of just more people uh

01:11:32.920 --> 01:11:34.960
more people happy less people suffering

01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:38.760
or more something like that

01:11:38.760 --> 01:11:42.000
um but it's interesting to think what is

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:45.800
that that we appeal to used to be God

01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:47.480
but most people

01:11:47.480 --> 01:11:50.239
then didn't know what that process was

01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:53.320
and so they would appeal to a rule book

01:11:53.320 --> 01:11:59.080
right and and um

01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:09.239
so what about the AL Fox and rabbit

01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:12.840
different different AI I mean it's as if

01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:17.120
nature is doing a computation right

01:12:17.120 --> 01:12:20.159
but this is the natural intelligence of

01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:25.040
the world um and you get

01:12:25.040 --> 01:12:29.719
qualitative um Beauty I would say but

01:12:29.719 --> 01:12:31.920
you have cycles of all kinds of

01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:35.120
quantitative you know like like there's

01:12:35.120 --> 01:12:39.840
all kinds of Crash crash and Bloom

01:12:39.840 --> 01:12:41.400
Cycles in

01:12:41.400 --> 01:12:45.280
nature so at any given moment it's met

01:12:45.280 --> 01:12:47.760
you know it's it's

01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:50.239
metastable this guy was saying AI could

01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:54.760
create infinitely stable not metastable

01:12:54.760 --> 01:12:57.199
uh

01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:11.120
dictatorships in in nature we have

01:13:11.120 --> 01:13:13.320
Extinction events that's probably not

01:13:13.320 --> 01:13:17.639
good at all for some and yeah because

01:13:17.639 --> 01:13:20.199
it's highly

01:13:20.719 --> 01:13:22.920
metastable it's but it preserves a

01:13:22.920 --> 01:13:27.239
quality ative um

01:13:35.480 --> 01:13:38.199
Beauty I guess we're at the end of the

01:13:38.199 --> 01:13:40.880
class I think we populated like all the

01:13:40.880 --> 01:13:43.840
things we can we can think about we we

01:13:43.840 --> 01:13:46.280
yeah

01:13:46.639 --> 01:13:49.080
Kevin oh I would just there was

01:13:49.080 --> 01:13:51.400
something about the what Phoebe was

01:13:51.400 --> 01:13:56.560
talking about um um this idea of

01:13:56.560 --> 01:13:58.920
sovereignty and you know like come and

01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:00.520
what you were saying in terms of having

01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:02.679
your own you know

01:14:02.679 --> 01:14:07.120
evaluative um approach to things and it

01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:09.199
just reminded me of a situation where I

01:14:09.199 --> 01:14:12.040
was going to build a set of stairs at

01:14:12.040 --> 01:14:16.360
the cottage and I asked for input and

01:14:16.360 --> 01:14:18.800
and the input that I got

01:14:18.800 --> 01:14:22.040
was oh oh you're going too far don't do

01:14:22.040 --> 01:14:25.080
that um because it just just do it this

01:14:25.080 --> 01:14:26.880
simple way and get it you know get it

01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:28.960
done and and it

01:14:28.960 --> 01:14:32.480
was it was an evaluation that was that I

01:14:32.480 --> 01:14:34.520
was getting from you know other people

01:14:34.520 --> 01:14:36.960
from their point of view they weren't

01:14:36.960 --> 01:14:39.000
going to do the

01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:41.840
work I was going to do the work and I

01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:44.360
was saying I was going to do this

01:14:44.360 --> 01:14:47.320
because of all the reasons that it

01:14:47.320 --> 01:14:50.320
served me but I wanted their

01:14:50.320 --> 01:14:52.800
input and it just struck me that this

01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:56.560
sort of Rel relates to you know using

01:14:56.560 --> 01:14:59.480
the the inclination I mean I don't mean

01:14:59.480 --> 01:15:02.360
using in a utilitarian way or abusing

01:15:02.360 --> 01:15:04.520
but but ju just having some kind of

01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:05.880
awareness of what people are already

01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:07.760
going to do like you don't know the

01:15:07.760 --> 01:15:10.560
abilities and and motivations that

01:15:10.560 --> 01:15:14.239
people will go to research and you know

01:15:14.239 --> 01:15:16.840
get something done and that there might

01:15:16.840 --> 01:15:20.679
be something in there in terms of that

01:15:20.679 --> 01:15:22.199
evaluative

01:15:22.199 --> 01:15:25.199
process

01:15:26.360 --> 01:15:29.040
yeah I'll leave it there but yeah no the

01:15:29.040 --> 01:15:32.040
sovereignty piece so

01:15:32.040 --> 01:15:35.120
um yes you go you do your du diligence

01:15:35.120 --> 01:15:37.040
you Google you do some research you ask

01:15:37.040 --> 01:15:39.920
people you know my many of you know my

01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:44.120
story like the first horse that I had uh

01:15:44.120 --> 01:15:45.880
I put I've had lots of animals it's

01:15:45.880 --> 01:15:48.600
always clear to me uh when they need to

01:15:48.600 --> 01:15:50.800
be euthanized and many of them have died

01:15:50.800 --> 01:15:54.600
peacefully in old age but my first horse

01:15:54.600 --> 01:15:56.760
half my friends said oh he's just going

01:15:56.760 --> 01:15:58.239
to suffer too much he's going to die

01:15:58.239 --> 01:16:00.440
anyways and half said no no no no no you

01:16:00.440 --> 01:16:02.239
can do this you can do this and you do

01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:04.679
that and he's got a long life and at the

01:16:04.679 --> 01:16:08.520
end I had to decide and I made I I I did

01:16:08.520 --> 01:16:11.440
the intervention he suffered too much I

01:16:11.440 --> 01:16:13.239
ended up giving him

01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:18.440
to so much uh medicine that the medicine

01:16:18.440 --> 01:16:22.280
killed him but I I I I made a mistake I

01:16:22.280 --> 01:16:24.719
I it's one of the only times I've really

01:16:24.719 --> 01:16:30.040
and it still really bothers me um but

01:16:30.040 --> 01:16:32.880
but that's the sovereignty piece you

01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:37.080
know you you you want you want to go and

01:16:37.080 --> 01:16:41.880
listen to people um but at the end of

01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:43.840
the day you're the one building the

01:16:43.840 --> 01:16:47.239
stairs you're the one that

01:16:47.239 --> 01:16:52.719
and so um yeah there I think I think

01:16:52.719 --> 01:16:54.600
what you're you're saying is that also

01:16:54.600 --> 01:16:58.280
that it's more coherent to way the

01:16:58.280 --> 01:17:00.880
person whose choice and actions it will

01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:06.560
be more than um just the the information

01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:09.440
that comes um because you know they talk

01:17:09.440 --> 01:17:10.960
about skin in the game and stuff like

01:17:10.960 --> 01:17:17.080
that so um I think that's that's um yeah

01:17:17.080 --> 01:17:20.360
that's all part of it and the Dost say

01:17:20.360 --> 01:17:24.600
this in the in the in the um

01:17:24.600 --> 01:17:27.360
aing is like they make fun of like

01:17:27.360 --> 01:17:29.760
someone who wants to justify something

01:17:29.760 --> 01:17:31.480
he goes to his neighbor and his neighbor

01:17:31.480 --> 01:17:33.000
has a different opinion and then he goes

01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:34.639
to the second guy and the second guy

01:17:34.639 --> 01:17:37.920
agrees with him and so now he's got then

01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:39.400
he goes to another one now he's got two

01:17:39.400 --> 01:17:44.440
and two and and there's no end to the

01:17:44.440 --> 01:17:46.639
you know and it's just and it goes on

01:17:46.639 --> 01:17:49.199
and on and on like that so that's kind

01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:51.840
of like they make fun of people that

01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:54.320
that want to find out out

01:17:54.320 --> 01:17:59.440
by Yeah by collecting

01:18:00.639 --> 01:18:02.920
opinions okay this is very good any

01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:06.040
other comments before we leave um yes

01:18:06.040 --> 01:18:07.639
Sandra H

01:18:07.639 --> 01:18:10.440
Susan this isn't totally directly

01:18:10.440 --> 01:18:12.480
related but I ran into a really

01:18:12.480 --> 01:18:14.920
beautiful podcast this week that was

01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:17.760
connected to the question last time of

01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:20.600
what moves us across the room and so I'm

01:18:20.600 --> 01:18:24.639
going to put it in the chat it's a it um

01:18:24.639 --> 01:18:26.360
it's Matthew Samford it's called the

01:18:26.360 --> 01:18:29.120
body's Grace it's really it's just

01:18:29.120 --> 01:18:31.400
stunning and it actually originally

01:18:31.400 --> 01:18:34.040
aired in 2006 but they brought it back

01:18:34.040 --> 01:18:36.600
up awesome thank you so much I love

01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:40.600
Christ tippet yeah it's

01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:43.320
beautiful okay thank you this was really

01:18:43.320 --> 01:18:44.880
very generative we have different

01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:48.639
prompts uh throughout the month so um

01:18:48.639 --> 01:18:50.920
yeah so if you want to come more than

01:18:50.920 --> 01:18:54.159
once uh they'll

01:18:54.159 --> 01:18:57.239
they yeah there'll be different prompts

01:18:57.239 --> 01:19:00.880
uh yeah time difference tomorrow yeah

01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:04.679
Mel sorry you guys did it already um but

01:19:04.679 --> 01:19:06.639
we'll see you I don't know when's the

01:19:06.639 --> 01:19:09.040
next one oh Thursday and Friday see you

01:19:09.040 --> 01:19:11.840
Thursday um yeah this Thursday Saturday

01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:15.000
thing will change um in the new year but

01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:17.159
right now I'm just stuck to the just

01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:20.400
those two days so thank you very much um

01:19:20.400 --> 01:19:21.920
there's really cool stuff coming down

01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:26.080
the pike and have a great day thank

01:19:26.080 --> 01:19:29.080
you



## Cohort 2

00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:07.280
all right so today is um I think session

00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:12.840
two on the moral animal and um we are

00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:17.439
going to um in um when it's quarter

00:00:17.439 --> 00:00:20.480
after we'll go into a breakout group

00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.880
with a prompt um but let's just get

00:00:23.880 --> 00:00:25.800
situated and see if there's any

00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.759
questions or comments um either on

00:00:30.759 --> 00:00:35.640
um the exercise last week or some of the

00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:38.600
writing or any clarifying questions

00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:41.640
around this notion of a moral

00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:48.480
animal um yeah to see um yeah to see if

00:00:48.480 --> 00:00:50.480
uh yeah what's been on your mind and

00:00:50.480 --> 00:00:52.399
we'll just wait to see some late skis

00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:56.359
are coming I'll keep it open for um

00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:58.920
another 10 minutes or

00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:00.519
so

00:01:00.519 --> 00:01:02.960
or just

00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:31.840
checkins

00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:35.680
yeah hi everyone good to see you um

00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.280
Bonnie I had a question around um the

00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:41.840
non-comment values that you mentioned in

00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:44.799
the last session I listened to that

00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.000
recording um when you're talking about

00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:50.119
values are you referring to the sort of

00:01:50.119 --> 00:01:52.520
thing that Gil Christ and Zack Stein

00:01:52.520 --> 00:01:55.119
were talking about in their discussion

00:01:55.119 --> 00:02:00.000
about aesthetic and Eros and all of that

00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.640
or are you referring to more what I

00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:03.920
would call more

00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.440
concrete values that we

00:02:07.440 --> 00:02:11.520
have yes unfortunately I'm talking about

00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:15.800
values at the level of value

00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:22.800
setion as Ian mcel Christ uh would um so

00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:24.080
let's just talk about the different

00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.680
kinds of values that I'm talking about

00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.440
values pretty much inclusively

00:02:30.440 --> 00:02:34.200
of that word and trying to say

00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:37.400
that um I don't know why I'm like this

00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:38.959
because I just think we need to think

00:02:38.959 --> 00:02:41.080
more radically okay so then I think oh

00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:42.959
let's talk about values it doesn't solve

00:02:42.959 --> 00:02:47.120
anything so maybe values doesn't really

00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.400
have much to do with something I'm

00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:51.360
calling the moral animal that's so I

00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.920
start like that I start

00:02:53.920 --> 00:02:56.879
examining the fundamental assumptions

00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:58.840
you know so I grew up with integral

00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:01.560
Theory and theyve they they have values

00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:03.440
streams that are rated you know there's

00:03:03.440 --> 00:03:05.239
premodern values there's postmodern

00:03:05.239 --> 00:03:08.599
values there's integral values teal

00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.360
values um and there's Stein and

00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:14.840
gaffney's notion of Val you know first

00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.400
principles and values of the

00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:21.680
Universe um and we normally

00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:23.360
associate

00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:25.239
morality with

00:03:25.239 --> 00:03:30.959
values um and I was um

00:03:30.959 --> 00:03:35.799
um being the way I am lately or most of

00:03:35.799 --> 00:03:39.239
my life I'm like they they don't and I

00:03:39.239 --> 00:03:42.280
read then I read hardan and hardan said

00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:43.760
you know in

00:03:43.760 --> 00:03:46.319
nature there are only

00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:50.439
Goods I wish I had the book because um

00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.480
and um and they're incommensurable right

00:03:53.480 --> 00:03:55.599
I mean we can see in the context of the

00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.720
fox it's a hole it's really good and

00:03:58.720 --> 00:04:01.239
then they switch your perspective and in

00:04:01.239 --> 00:04:07.519
this context so I'm going to so so those

00:04:07.519 --> 00:04:10.040
and then he said once we get to the

00:04:10.040 --> 00:04:11.720
human

00:04:11.720 --> 00:04:16.479
level we switch the term from Goods to

00:04:16.479 --> 00:04:19.479
values and they are also incommensurable

00:04:19.479 --> 00:04:22.880
in the same way in other words if we

00:04:22.880 --> 00:04:26.759
take the context of a

00:04:26.840 --> 00:04:30.120
stable desert tribe

00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.560
that still has intact land a patriarchal

00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.199
patriarchy might be a valuable

00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:39.840
thing strict patriarchy because it's in

00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:42.240
a context like I'm shifting to I'm in

00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:43.720
the context of the

00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:48.080
fox um and so that all

00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:53.240
that values are not Goods in all

00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.759
contexts and here I mean good the good

00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:02.320
so here's a value I'm going to sacrifice

00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:03.080
my

00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:06.880
life it's a good a high good in some

00:05:06.880 --> 00:05:09.759
context and not others so we have this

00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:13.039
problem that values are not goods are

00:05:13.039 --> 00:05:16.680
not good in all context so now I'm using

00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:20.039
the word good as the higher term the

00:05:20.039 --> 00:05:23.120
good all right and so morality has to do

00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:24.960
with the good which I know sounds

00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:27.400
Transcendent you I don't like that but

00:05:27.400 --> 00:05:30.000
we're going to reclaim that andless

00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.680
to do with values and forget trying to

00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:34.440
grade them and rate them and all this

00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:36.880
stuff right

00:05:36.880 --> 00:05:39.600
so if you're a mountain climber and

00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.120
you're climbing I saw this scene in a

00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:42.560
movie once it was very powerful and

00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.160
you're climbing with your two kids and

00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.319
your son is at the is at the top and

00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:49.199
then your younger daughter's in the

00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.759
middle and you're at the bottom and your

00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:54.520
line

00:05:54.520 --> 00:05:57.800
breaks and the kids is trying to pull

00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.600
you up and he's not strong enough and

00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.160
the father says Cut the Rope just look

00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:08.840
at me look at me Cut the Rope right so

00:06:08.840 --> 00:06:11.800
we all we recognize that as a

00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:15.759
good right it's a good it's it's obvious

00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:17.520
and you know the eye contact between the

00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:20.479
sun it's like really intense right so

00:06:20.479 --> 00:06:22.800
but it's not a value to sacrifice

00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.759
yourself or to have someone you know cut

00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.800
the it's not a good in all context Okay

00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.360
so

00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:31.919
so that just gives you the different

00:06:31.919 --> 00:06:35.680
sense of values and so I'm going to say

00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:40.319
that like like okay here it

00:06:40.479 --> 00:06:42.680
comes so we're gonna have three

00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.560
categories we're gonna have

00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:49.599
Justice ethics and

00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.000
morality Justice is the adjudication of

00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:56.319
external relations between

00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:58.919
people an external means you killed five

00:06:58.919 --> 00:07:01.240
of mine I'm going to kill six of yours

00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:02.960
you know one just so you don't try it

00:07:02.960 --> 00:07:06.520
again and this is external

00:07:06.520 --> 00:07:09.240
relations ethics is evaluative

00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.199
reasonableness and it's more has to do

00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.039
with everyday

00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.000
stuff and morality has to do with

00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.720
improving the potential for the good in

00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.759
the internal relations between

00:07:26.919 --> 00:07:31.800
people right so if so nothing I could if

00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:33.879
I just find

00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:37.039
Justice and I make you hate me or resent

00:07:37.039 --> 00:07:39.840
me I didn't improve the potential for

00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:43.639
the good inside of you if you are in a

00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.400
Justice war with

00:07:46.400 --> 00:07:48.879
someone because you're interacting with

00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.560
them Justice is the the realm of

00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:52.759
external

00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:55.879
interactions right then part of them is

00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.720
becoming ingressed into you which means

00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.039
you're going to be at war with yourself

00:08:01.039 --> 00:08:03.080
and you will reduce the good in your own

00:08:03.080 --> 00:08:04.759
internal

00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:08.039
relationships it cannot

00:08:08.039 --> 00:08:11.039
be

00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.680
escaped and this has nothing to do with

00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:15.919
values it has to do with this this

00:08:15.919 --> 00:08:19.520
internal and external relationship

00:08:19.520 --> 00:08:23.319
between people in and in in collectives

00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:25.840
does that make

00:08:26.840 --> 00:08:29.879
sense well yes I mean there's a lot if

00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:32.640
there's a lot that you've said for me

00:08:32.640 --> 00:08:37.240
um would would you be putting the

00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.479
rational um moral well the rational

00:08:41.479 --> 00:08:44.880
justification in in the Justice area

00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:47.120
like the person comes up with a rational

00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:50.839
yeah yeah yes that's justice so okay you

00:08:50.839 --> 00:08:54.600
might say well Israel needs justice but

00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:57.279
it's not a moral good it's not it's

00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.560
immoral what they're doing if you

00:08:59.560 --> 00:09:02.160
imagine that that scene with the man and

00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.360
his son let's get the daughter out of it

00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:05.240
for

00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:08.320
now and he's saying cut it cut the rope

00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.279
and then he sees something in his son's

00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:12.519
eyes that he knows his son will never

00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:15.640
recover from it he will have to change

00:09:15.640 --> 00:09:17.360
his

00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:24.120
mind because ah yes ah up and it's

00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.600
the reason what and and that's why the

00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:28.560
camera has to show him looking at his

00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:29.959
son's ey

00:09:29.959 --> 00:09:32.640
because they are establishing an

00:09:32.640 --> 00:09:35.920
internal relation of the

00:09:35.920 --> 00:09:41.120
good he might say okay get get that and

00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.519
just try like he might see something in

00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:44.320
his

00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:48.000
son where he's gonna ask his son to try

00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:51.079
to pick him up and they both might die

00:09:51.079 --> 00:09:52.920
because it's about the cultivation of

00:09:52.920 --> 00:09:56.880
the internal potential for the

00:09:58.120 --> 00:09:59.680
good

00:09:59.680 --> 00:10:03.560
okay and that's what we're going to call

00:10:03.560 --> 00:10:07.920
the moral organ of

00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:11.120
nature okay thank you so that's kind of

00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.640
where we're going and it's it's you know

00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:17.320
we've just what we're putting all these

00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:18.360
pieces

00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:21.040
together yeah yeah I think thank you and

00:10:21.040 --> 00:10:25.240
I'm I'm also assuming um and it may be

00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.800
incorrect that because it's context we

00:10:28.800 --> 00:10:31.920
we talked about this earlier um where

00:10:31.920 --> 00:10:35.560
the context is partial not and so you

00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:37.720
can have the perspective there can be

00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:39.880
many perspectives you can include but

00:10:39.880 --> 00:10:43.079
the context is partial so that's that

00:10:43.079 --> 00:10:46.360
here is well for the good the context is

00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:48.480
with this guy getting the Rope Cut

00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.279
you've got a context it's partial but it

00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:54.279
can be the good when you cut the rope

00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.600
yes and

00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.720
and action are also the Transcendence in

00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.200
my my way of looking at it what is

00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.560
transcendent is not the self and God but

00:11:07.560 --> 00:11:11.040
it's the moral act because you

00:11:11.040 --> 00:11:15.399
can't actually know for sure what

00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:19.000
the what the what the outcomes what all

00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.959
the consequences of your actions are so

00:11:20.959 --> 00:11:23.560
at a certain point you're reaching for

00:11:23.560 --> 00:11:26.600
this ideal the good inside your internal

00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.480
spaces that you're sharing and yeah it's

00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:31.920
a leap it has to be a leap of face you

00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:34.399
can you can never know for sure and you

00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:37.360
know you can't know for sure so in that

00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.760
sense it's very much a Transcendent

00:11:39.760 --> 00:11:41.360
thing I'm

00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.519
describing and can I ask one more

00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:47.000
question please about that um is that

00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.399
like you did an exercise I noticed the

00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:52.240
exercise was done is can you remember

00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.000
when you're a child that something was

00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:57.519
felt off or wrong you would say that was

00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:01.399
wrong um is that the same thing that you

00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.480
have this is it something one has

00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:09.200
intrinsically that which is good so you

00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.639
can you you actually know when

00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:14.199
something's good something's wrong or

00:12:14.199 --> 00:12:17.720
something or not yes it's an instinct

00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.240
it's it's it's as much of an instinct in

00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.320
a person as a behavioral instinct is in

00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.199
an animal that does and then it needs to

00:12:26.199 --> 00:12:28.560
get cultivated and supported and blah

00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:29.519
blah blah

00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.560
but we were just noticing that it didn't

00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:36.040
seem like you were conditioned to to to

00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:38.920
know right in fact you were probably to

00:12:38.920 --> 00:12:40.519
it was like they were conditioning you

00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.079
not to know it was bad and there was

00:12:43.079 --> 00:12:47.399
something in you that that yeah that was

00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:51.320
that so this like this biomarker of of a

00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:52.839
certain moral

00:12:52.839 --> 00:12:55.440
intelligence um I I'm going to assume

00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:57.320
that every child has it because there

00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.760
are some people that that are much more

00:13:00.760 --> 00:13:04.639
sociopathic um and they pretty much just

00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:08.560
work with external cues um and and you

00:13:08.560 --> 00:13:11.040
know so I I'm not going to say they're

00:13:11.040 --> 00:13:15.920
less than human um so different degrees

00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:18.320
uh people will be born different degrees

00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.800
of that I would say and but but if we

00:13:21.800 --> 00:13:24.519
understood it more as a society you

00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.279
could cultivate people who

00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.360
didn't who didn't have so much of that

00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:33.279
experience very very Salient when they

00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.760
were young so I'm not you know I want to

00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:36.839
say

00:13:36.839 --> 00:13:39.519
that you know what I'm saying like there

00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.079
is a spectrum of people who are more or

00:13:43.079 --> 00:13:47.199
less um would have more or less a strong

00:13:47.199 --> 00:13:50.120
experiences when they're kids right and

00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:53.199
so then as an adult as you grow become

00:13:53.199 --> 00:13:55.920
an adult like I can see that for a while

00:13:55.920 --> 00:13:57.800
when I was a social activist and into

00:13:57.800 --> 00:14:00.440
all of that that

00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.279
what instinctively felt wrong there was

00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:07.680
a jump to Justice like I can see how I

00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:09.639
did that for a while and I got into all

00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:14.320
of that phase of my life and then oh

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.680
this is not so yes yeah okay yeah I mean

00:14:18.680 --> 00:14:22.519
it's not it's not going to be if you

00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:24.560
know I I I have a chapter in the book

00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:26.120
called the moral animal and this is what

00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.800
it's going to say it's going to get if

00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:30.519
people read it and they take it

00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:35.040
seriously it will elicit a lot

00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:39.839
of criticism if not downright hate uh

00:14:39.839 --> 00:14:42.040
I'm not going to just call out everyone

00:14:42.040 --> 00:14:46.759
but it's pretty it's a pretty

00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.759
radical reversal or inversion of a lot

00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:58.519
of what's popular now um but um what the

00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:00.920
hell I'm just gonna say say anyways you

00:15:00.920 --> 00:15:03.079
know oh I think it's exciting I'm really

00:15:03.079 --> 00:15:05.440
excited about that I think it's great

00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.000
yeah yeah know it's cool it's like black

00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.639
lives matter is is a

00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:12.120
disaster I mean it just creates more

00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.959
racial hatred because it's got It's All

00:15:15.959 --> 00:15:18.320
Justice it's all external

00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.560
interactions um now I get it the world

00:15:21.560 --> 00:15:24.800
is becoming people are can't endure any

00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:27.920
more Injustice so I get it I'm not

00:15:27.920 --> 00:15:34.720
saying but we need a way to

00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.959
articulate a new vision for something or

00:15:37.959 --> 00:15:41.560
something you know um and so and it also

00:15:41.560 --> 00:15:44.800
you know it's from my own Community

00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:47.920
integral community and environs

00:15:47.920 --> 00:15:50.319
metamodern it's a big slap in the face

00:15:50.319 --> 00:15:52.880
for this all this values

00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:55.360
discussion but they just they just get

00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.959
into food fights you know because

00:15:57.959 --> 00:16:00.600
because

00:16:02.839 --> 00:16:06.440
yeah because yeah so I don't think yeah

00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.199
and and then there's some other

00:16:08.199 --> 00:16:10.319
sophisticated ways to talk about it but

00:16:10.319 --> 00:16:11.519
I need a

00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.240
Blackboard to talk about historicity and

00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.160
stuff but anyways thanks for asking

00:16:16.160 --> 00:16:18.120
that's what it turns down into we've got

00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:20.279
Justice which are the external

00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.560
interactions that get adjudicated and

00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:26.319
balanced you know there's restoration

00:16:26.319 --> 00:16:29.720
reparation um and resolution Injustice

00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:32.759
these are not moral terms and ethics we

00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.839
have everyday ethics right like things

00:16:34.839 --> 00:16:36.199
that you have

00:16:36.199 --> 00:16:39.680
to small conflicts and

00:16:39.680 --> 00:16:42.199
competitions and and conflicts that you

00:16:42.199 --> 00:16:46.720
have to adjudicate uh around um um you

00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.880
know what to do in in compromise and

00:16:49.880 --> 00:16:51.240
consensus and that and that we're going

00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.240
to use the the term that we used last

00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.040
week evaluative

00:16:55.040 --> 00:16:57.079
reasonableness not judgmental

00:16:57.079 --> 00:16:59.839
rationalism you got Quantum data and

00:16:59.839 --> 00:17:02.079
you're judgmental but can we be

00:17:02.079 --> 00:17:04.039
reasonable about this and that's just

00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.400
more of a dialogic kind of tool and then

00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:10.679
we have this this piece of morality and

00:17:10.679 --> 00:17:14.839
the uh increasing the in the good the

00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:18.280
internal internal relations toward the

00:17:18.280 --> 00:17:20.280
good this kind of

00:17:20.280 --> 00:17:24.559
transcendal transcendental term matalina

00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.400
excellent question thanks for

00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:29.720
asking

00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.520
I don't know if this fits in and I'm

00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:35.240
fine if it doesn't you know stop it but

00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.240
it just brought to mind this heated

00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:41.039
moment in one of our

00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:47.000
sessions where um you said we can't

00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.840
bring in the

00:17:48.840 --> 00:17:52.000
police and again I'm not going to be

00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.720
able to reproduce the entire context I

00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.240
think you probably remember had to do

00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:02.360
this first second third person thing but

00:18:02.360 --> 00:18:10.720
I I I got um you know um how shall I say

00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:16.240
um it it felt right what you were

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.960
doing but I I then kind of continued to

00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.000
think about it and I

00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:23.520
couldn't

00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:27.600
articulate to myself why it felt right

00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:30.840
and in the context of these external

00:18:30.840 --> 00:18:34.360
internal relations I was just wondering

00:18:34.360 --> 00:18:38.200
whether it would be relevant to try to

00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.480
clarify that moment yeah I mean it is it

00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.159
is relevant what I I mean it has a moral

00:18:46.159 --> 00:18:49.880
component to it for sure for me as a

00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:53.880
teacher it's always whether the

00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.840
intervention let's say or the move um

00:18:57.840 --> 00:19:01.480
whether it can

00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.440
um

00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.480
perpetuate the internal relations like

00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.880
can can you you know you don't want to

00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.679
destroy the town in order to save it

00:19:11.679 --> 00:19:19.000
right um so and there's always some

00:19:20.080 --> 00:19:26.120
um reflexive process of

00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.400
um

00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.080
yeah reflexive process

00:19:32.080 --> 00:19:35.120
of what is at stake you know first you

00:19:35.120 --> 00:19:37.640
say well what is it at stake why does it

00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.880
matter um how much does it matter um and

00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.480
then and then um and then it's and then

00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:46.480
it's

00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.480
like

00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.760
um then there's something

00:19:52.760 --> 00:19:57.679
that for me shows up in the next moment

00:19:57.679 --> 00:20:00.240
that is like an invitation saying

00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.960
yes here it is this is the invitation

00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:06.600
had this not one thing not

00:20:06.600 --> 00:20:10.120
happened um and what happened in that

00:20:10.120 --> 00:20:13.520
intervention is I felt horrible that

00:20:13.520 --> 00:20:16.600
this young man was apologizing for his

00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:19.520
excitement that this had become a place

00:20:19.520 --> 00:20:20.720
where a young

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.159
person was apologizing for their

00:20:23.159 --> 00:20:26.039
excitement and that then pushed me

00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.799
Across the Threshold to make an

00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:31.360
intervention had that not happened it

00:20:31.360 --> 00:20:33.240
would have probably just hung in limbo

00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:38.480
as a I'm not so sure uh um but that was

00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:42.919
what was the The Prompt and the and the

00:20:42.919 --> 00:20:46.120
that that was like an invitation to me

00:20:46.120 --> 00:20:49.840
not what had happened to my space right

00:20:49.840 --> 00:20:53.840
but witnessing that was just it was not

00:20:53.840 --> 00:20:55.480
it was not

00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.159
right I I I so appre appreciate hearing

00:20:59.159 --> 00:21:01.960
you say this because as you're saying it

00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.159
I feel it in my chest I'm not talking

00:21:05.159 --> 00:21:07.679
about my heart I mean it's sort of

00:21:07.679 --> 00:21:09.520
associated with

00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:13.120
breathability yeah you know

00:21:13.120 --> 00:21:18.120
and to be able to be attuned at that

00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:21.440
level obviously there's a lot of

00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.279
preparation um that has

00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.600
to

00:21:26.600 --> 00:21:28.720
be ready

00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.960
yeah and these things you know we are a

00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.080
group and we are in group process and

00:21:33.080 --> 00:21:37.320
it's the whole group that is

00:21:37.320 --> 00:21:40.279
constellating the pimple that happen so

00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.159
it's not linear C cause and effect I I

00:21:43.159 --> 00:21:45.080
don't believe it's linear cause and

00:21:45.080 --> 00:21:47.400
effect we don't get into that kind of

00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.840
Storytelling it's just over time we're

00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:51.880
all

00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:55.440
sharing and then it comes emerges from

00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.640
the group uh it's not a story of this

00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:00.760
one and then this it's not like that I

00:22:00.760 --> 00:22:04.400
don't I don't experience group process I

00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.039
mean if it's a casual group and you're

00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.039
at the grocery store yeah you tell a

00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:11.360
story well he pushed the cart into her

00:22:11.360 --> 00:22:13.279
but when it's a group like this where

00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.880
everyone's on the edge and on the line

00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.679
and invited to be it it's a

00:22:18.679 --> 00:22:22.120
group what emerges is is from the group

00:22:22.120 --> 00:22:25.320
and the group process so I just that is

00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:28.200
also I think something important to to

00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:32.200
say um and that's you know again like I

00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:34.279
said if it's just a casual thing there's

00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:35.840
three people in the grocery store and

00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:37.640
someone pushes a cart into another

00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:39.480
person I'm not going to say all three

00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:43.440
were like you know but these intensive

00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.679
groups have to be understood as

00:22:45.679 --> 00:22:46.880
collective

00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:51.840
processes um and

00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:55.480
and taken for just the event that in

00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.880
process that they are um without this

00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.760
other kind of narrating it so I think

00:23:01.760 --> 00:23:04.120
you asked your question very well M

00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:07.760
matalina um but that's exactly what it

00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:09.559
was in my experience and you know

00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:11.279
obviously it's different for different

00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.000
people um

00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.840
experience and there's always this this

00:23:20.840 --> 00:23:23.039
also threat I mean I've been doing this

00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.559
for a long time

00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.279
and in my actual Master's course you

00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:30.440
know it' be 30 hours together on a

00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.760
weekend and it would sometimes be very

00:23:33.760 --> 00:23:35.960
intense um and there's always this

00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:39.440
question like did I poison the water

00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.960
that is the relationship we're swimming

00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:46.760
in like you you it's It's Tricky

00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:50.600
uh but like I said it's you're not

00:23:50.600 --> 00:23:52.559
you're not always sure and then you have

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:54.520
to say but then then I'm not alone in

00:23:54.520 --> 00:23:57.320
the group either you know the water is

00:23:57.320 --> 00:24:00.480
self-correct in or or whatever these are

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:05.480
just metaphors but yeah good question

00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.279
David no Me Oh Me

00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:12.120
Phoebe you know I was

00:24:12.120 --> 00:24:16.279
feeling I went into the idea of being at

00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:19.640
uh guilty for

00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:22.960
um having such a

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:29.799
strong um see if I can remember back um

00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:31.559
preference

00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:35.320
for um referencing from my body and not

00:24:35.320 --> 00:24:38.720
being able to follow ideas and and a

00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:43.520
certain impatience with that and so I

00:24:43.520 --> 00:24:47.360
was after you ended the last class I was

00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:49.440
thinking oh god

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:54.279
um I need to own up to that piece and

00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:59.760
then as I sat with that I uh

00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.799
decided not to

00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:06.960
because um that's my energy that's my

00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.279
you know I'm making space the way I need

00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:13.159
to make space and I hope that when I do

00:25:13.159 --> 00:25:15.399
that I'm not making

00:25:15.399 --> 00:25:19.279
wrong um and if I am making wrong that's

00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:21.200
part maybe part of how I'm doing it in a

00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:23.600
clumsy way and I don't mind somebody

00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:24.760
saying

00:25:24.760 --> 00:25:29.679
ouch but um

00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:40.480
mops I can't hear

00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:46.480
you

00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:52.399
okay I can hear you Phoebe okay maybe

00:25:52.399 --> 00:25:55.919
it's yeah no it's good now okay I like

00:25:55.919 --> 00:25:59.000
the idea that we can all have our

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.320
edginess and we all can have that

00:26:01.320 --> 00:26:09.039
whatever is broiling up um with and hold

00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:11.000
that

00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.080
um W without like I don't want to have

00:26:14.080 --> 00:26:16.600
to be so careful that I don't get this I

00:26:16.600 --> 00:26:20.000
need this for whatever my reasons are

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.720
yeah so you know I immediately when I

00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.880
said that thought well I'm the police

00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:26.840
who's going to Poli the police and so

00:26:26.840 --> 00:26:29.240
you get into the is using language

00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:31.520
that's supposed to be it's stupid right

00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:36.279
so no and and like I said the you've

00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.360
been like that before and it was kind of

00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:40.600
interesting it was just the the group

00:26:40.600 --> 00:26:43.200
constellated itself in a way in in an

00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.960
Xavier and then then and so it's a kind

00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:50.880
of an emerging thing um but certainly I

00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.039
don't want to be the police that polices

00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.919
whether people police you know it it's

00:26:57.919 --> 00:27:01.200
it's you know which is what I was kind

00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.000
of being like but

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.000
um so I heard you say is not being the

00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:08.760
police as much as

00:27:08.760 --> 00:27:11.520
saying

00:27:11.520 --> 00:27:16.480
um don't well it is policing but but

00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:20.440
valuing the energy like you say Xavier

00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:22.919
brought like like like yes yes yes yes

00:27:22.919 --> 00:27:25.919
yes to that and that felt really good

00:27:25.919 --> 00:27:28.960
it's like like how can we come together

00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.640
and have all of us have our

00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:35.399
yeses and navigate yeah I think we're on

00:27:35.399 --> 00:27:37.520
the same page and then and then you get

00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:40.559
to so you you try to be more accurate in

00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:43.279
your language and it has these funny

00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:46.840
Paradox isn't it so but I I feel thanks

00:27:46.840 --> 00:27:48.960
for asking the question and thanks for

00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.279
saying so and just this understanding

00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.880
that it is a collective process it's not

00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.919
a linear narrative like one of the these

00:27:57.919 --> 00:28:00.840
soap opera dramas that we watch on TV

00:28:00.840 --> 00:28:04.159
because then you can you know you

00:28:04.159 --> 00:28:06.760
can you know even the music tells you

00:28:06.760 --> 00:28:10.320
which one is the problem or something so

00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:12.080
yeah it's a collective

00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:15.559
thing thank you

00:28:18.320 --> 00:28:23.519
Marie so this uh conversation is Raising

00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.679
for me a question

00:28:25.679 --> 00:28:29.600
between um when values become

00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:33.200
norms and how

00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.360
um

00:28:35.360 --> 00:28:37.600
like yeah

00:28:37.600 --> 00:28:40.960
um that might be the whole question um

00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.799
and I'm I'm thinking about a a a

00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.880
situation that Ry and I had with a with

00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.760
a friend

00:28:48.760 --> 00:28:52.760
where um there was a Schism and the

00:28:52.760 --> 00:28:56.519
Schism if I could articulate it

00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:59.679
succinctly was around where he would say

00:28:59.679 --> 00:29:01.519
he was asserting his

00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:06.039
values and from our perspective it was

00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.440
um asserting a norm for how we should be

00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:14.080
together and that's where um we were

00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:17.720
not um we were no longer

00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.840
aligned so I'm just wondering what you

00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:22.039
might this is much better language than

00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:25.840
police the word policing that I used

00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:29.440
this horrible way I said it so yes

00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.480
that's a brilliant distinction so um you

00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:38.679
know we we can have values they're all

00:29:38.679 --> 00:29:41.880
incommensurable um and when you are

00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.760
holding your own value it is that as if

00:29:44.760 --> 00:29:47.159
it were the norm for the group then you

00:29:47.159 --> 00:29:51.279
get this feeling of tension arising um

00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:54.440
and we all

00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:56.840
uh there's kind of like a pendulum in

00:29:56.840 --> 00:29:59.480
all of us that like when the group is

00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:00.399
moving

00:30:00.399 --> 00:30:04.240
toward the norm that we like we we all

00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:06.679
grab you know there's

00:30:06.679 --> 00:30:10.600
something that's normal to then resist

00:30:10.600 --> 00:30:12.880
when it moves the other way um but

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.600
that's an excellent distinction it might

00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:17.919
have to use it in the book uh values and

00:30:17.919 --> 00:30:22.519
norms and it actually shows why the yeah

00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.240
that's that's excellent distinction so

00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.480
um

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.960
and to notice that if I value this kind

00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.200
of conversation and someone values that

00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.320
at a certain level you you can't

00:30:35.320 --> 00:30:37.080
adjudicate it they're just they're just

00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:39.080
different values in the space right and

00:30:39.080 --> 00:30:43.120
so you just yeah and and then just be

00:30:43.120 --> 00:30:45.200
careful that you're not holding your

00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.840
values as you forget that it's not the

00:30:48.840 --> 00:30:53.559
norm um and uh that's excellent

00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:59.240
distinction thank you very much Holly

00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:02.760
um so Kevin and I were rewatching the

00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:06.320
origins of the self the the other day um

00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:08.519
it was really beautiful I it's like you

00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:10.320
just started like making these lines you

00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:13.360
know about the the body and the void and

00:31:13.360 --> 00:31:15.679
like I just started weeping for no no

00:31:15.679 --> 00:31:20.000
reason um um and and there was this

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.320
feeling also of like what could what

00:31:22.320 --> 00:31:24.559
could go after the psyche

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:28.159
potentially um but something that sort

00:31:28.159 --> 00:31:30.080
of struck at least with this course

00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:32.840
content was the will you mentioned like

00:31:32.840 --> 00:31:37.519
will and you know I I kind of I mean I

00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.159
call it for myself like Divine will like

00:31:39.159 --> 00:31:42.320
this will from the void um that comes up

00:31:42.320 --> 00:31:44.720
and I notic it doesn't really have a

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:46.960
morality um but it does feel like it has

00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.720
a teos like it has a

00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.000
trajectory um and it's a trajectory

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:55.000
often it feels like towards more

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.840
coherence and harmony

00:31:57.840 --> 00:32:00.480
um and so anywayss I just wanted to sort

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.720
of I don't know if there's like a

00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.639
specific question but kind of I've been

00:32:04.639 --> 00:32:06.960
inquiring or examining this relationship

00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:11.159
between the Tios of the cosmos and

00:32:11.159 --> 00:32:15.200
morality so uh this is music to my heart

00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.559
and my ears so this is a I would say s a

00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:21.880
signature that we are doing Collective

00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.639
Insight practice so I just revised the

00:32:24.639 --> 00:32:26.559
chapter titles of the book and the

00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:29.039
subtitle is now human nature and divine

00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.639
will and the second to the last chapter

00:32:32.639 --> 00:32:36.240
talks about um because I've been reading

00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:38.799
this his This Heart Shan and he talking

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:40.559
about Mei and the world of power and I

00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.960
was talking

00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:45.360
about um and this just happened

00:32:45.360 --> 00:32:49.760
yesterday and I was saying that uh

00:32:49.760 --> 00:32:52.840
modernity is a traged of the will

00:32:52.840 --> 00:32:54.559
because it's a Will To Power

00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.840
postmodernity is a crisis of the will

00:32:56.840 --> 00:32:59.039
because is the will the psyche is where

00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:02.679
the will goes to die that thing I say

00:33:02.679 --> 00:33:07.240
and what's next is the Divine will is

00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:10.320
the will to love and my point is you

00:33:10.320 --> 00:33:13.799
cannot love unless you have the power of

00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:17.799
the will and the will to power this

00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:22.200
thing we all hate is still will so you

00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.279
have to have that thing that feels like

00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:28.960
Will To Power in order to will to

00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:37.639
love you have to have that same kind of

00:33:37.639 --> 00:33:42.720
embodied expression of will to love and

00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:45.639
this is why that you know when I talk

00:33:45.639 --> 00:33:48.440
about the the that God gets fully

00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:51.279
metabolized in his own creation like the

00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:53.960
octopus when it has its babies it's you

00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:57.519
have to have enormous will to be become

00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.080
fully metabolized into your

00:34:03.399 --> 00:34:06.639
creation yes it's a passion it's pathos

00:34:06.639 --> 00:34:08.280
not

00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:12.919
Mythos so um it'll end up with this you

00:34:12.919 --> 00:34:14.879
know I just the probably only book I'll

00:34:14.879 --> 00:34:16.480
write so I might as well just do the

00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.520
psyche is a place where the will goes to

00:34:18.520 --> 00:34:21.159
die and we're all like it's a crisis of

00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.720
will that's why we're in crisis so the

00:34:23.720 --> 00:34:27.000
tragedy of Will is at the will to power

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.240
crisis of will is the psyches the place

00:34:29.240 --> 00:34:30.760
where the will went to die in the

00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:31.919
postmodern

00:34:31.919 --> 00:34:37.119
error and then uh the Divine will is

00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:41.560
the last section in the second to the

00:34:41.560 --> 00:34:43.520
last chapter of the

00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:47.560
book that just happened

00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:50.560
yesterday will you say more about the

00:34:50.560 --> 00:34:52.320
will where the psyche goes because

00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.079
sometimes I notice that like the will in

00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.320
uses the psyche to imagine and some ways

00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.160
like there's like this will to

00:35:00.160 --> 00:35:04.400
also like that Pure Imagination yeah

00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.680
yeah so what just the psyche is like us

00:35:06.680 --> 00:35:08.720
and all our psychological trauma and we

00:35:08.720 --> 00:35:10.240
have to have the narratives and

00:35:10.240 --> 00:35:12.680
understand ourselves and we never get to

00:35:12.680 --> 00:35:14.640
do anything because we're infinitely

00:35:14.640 --> 00:35:16.880
trying to assess our own situation it's

00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:20.480
all ego referencing questioning um and

00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:24.800
it's and it's very postmodern and and uh

00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.920
and you have um

00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.160
you know as as Ivan illich would say

00:35:30.160 --> 00:35:33.839
it's iatrogenic so so the

00:35:33.839 --> 00:35:36.280
psychotherapeutic system and the drugs

00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.680
and the and the Benz of diazine

00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:42.720
antidepressants this is all part

00:35:42.720 --> 00:35:47.520
of making sure that the will uh yeah

00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:49.920
that doesn't and then and then you have

00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:52.040
the elites who have Will To Power and

00:35:52.040 --> 00:35:54.200
they and there's nothing to counteract

00:35:54.200 --> 00:35:58.000
it because there's not enough energy in

00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.319
even activism it's not a well to love

00:36:01.319 --> 00:36:03.839
it's just it's it's resentment and all

00:36:03.839 --> 00:36:07.839
this other Justice stuff so so uh it's

00:36:07.839 --> 00:36:10.440
always been the question in the last 10

00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.079
years why are like people who have are

00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:16.520
immoral have a lot of strength and

00:36:16.520 --> 00:36:19.319
endurance and action and they will

00:36:19.319 --> 00:36:21.839
things into existence and people who are

00:36:21.839 --> 00:36:25.000
like did their due diligence and are

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.359
good people they uh they're Meek they or

00:36:28.359 --> 00:36:32.599
they live in caves like why is

00:36:34.040 --> 00:36:36.920
that and the will is part of the body so

00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:39.760
it feels the same you know it's not

00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:42.319
going to feel like it's going to feel

00:36:42.319 --> 00:36:44.480
like I hate to say this a gaffy term

00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:46.200
like

00:36:46.200 --> 00:36:50.119
fierce fierce love right

00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:54.160
so something like that I just just got

00:36:54.160 --> 00:36:55.680
the hit yesterday

00:36:55.680 --> 00:37:00.480
so it's interesting that you bring it

00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:08.880
up would you say

00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:11.520
um that really well that really

00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:14.040
resonated with what I experienced that

00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:15.920
last part you just

00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.240
said

00:37:18.240 --> 00:37:20.560
um would you

00:37:20.560 --> 00:37:22.760
say well

00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:26.319
then it makes sense to me then that I

00:37:26.319 --> 00:37:28.760
guess if you're in that type of

00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:30.920
situation or mind or

00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:33.240
whatever that

00:37:33.240 --> 00:37:35.400
obviously the

00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:39.800
this the uh the solution is just to do

00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.040
stuff and just concentrate more on that

00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:45.560
is that kind of a generalization that

00:37:45.560 --> 00:37:48.599
works out as opposed to trying to

00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:51.240
continue all that you

00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:56.160
know psychological work is that like

00:37:56.160 --> 00:37:59.560
just kind of of send it well if the

00:37:59.560 --> 00:38:03.280
action is transcendent no amount of

00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.640
trying to figure it out is going to get

00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:08.079
you from here to there so you have to do

00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:10.839
something you have to try something out

00:38:10.839 --> 00:38:13.480
you have to do an experiment and learn

00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:18.000
from it you have to um live basically is

00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.880
all we're

00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.800
saying instead of simulating

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:25.520
Life

00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:27.640
uh

00:38:27.640 --> 00:38:29.520
yeah that's how you learned when you

00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:31.400
were a baby you how did you learn to

00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:36.720
speak you have no idea you just did

00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:40.280
stuff and here you are

00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:43.400
speaking you have no

00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:47.000
idea why

00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:55.960
Transcendent I just had a right before

00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:01.720
this actually I just had a big kind of a

00:39:01.720 --> 00:39:05.480
emotional release um I was looking in

00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.319
the mirror because I've been feeling

00:39:07.319 --> 00:39:10.640
very frustrated lately and angry because

00:39:10.640 --> 00:39:12.839
I don't know what to do I just looked in

00:39:12.839 --> 00:39:14.760
the mirror I was just like tell me what

00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:18.280
to do tell me what to do like talking to

00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:20.560
someone else just tell me what to do and

00:39:20.560 --> 00:39:22.200
then I just broke down crying because I

00:39:22.200 --> 00:39:24.040
was like I realized I don't know what to

00:39:24.040 --> 00:39:28.079
do and I don't understand I don't know

00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:33.160
and I just had a really big just yeah

00:39:33.160 --> 00:39:36.839
let go so I was yeah yeah no we don't

00:39:36.839 --> 00:39:39.280
know what to

00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:42.680
do that's

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.520
hard know what to

00:39:50.560 --> 00:39:53.839
do okay let's go into a 45 minute

00:39:53.839 --> 00:39:55.960
breakout and here's your prompt I mean I

00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:00.359
think it was really wonderful last

00:40:03.359 --> 00:40:07.200
time I G to read it

00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:13.359
correctly okay so I want you to think of

00:40:13.359 --> 00:40:16.680
a time and and perhaps uh you can start

00:40:16.680 --> 00:40:19.520
with thinking of one when you're young

00:40:19.520 --> 00:40:23.400
but then um some more recently or when

00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:25.119
you were in college or something you

00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:27.480
know don't don't uh

00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:29.680
necessarily uh limit yourself to an

00:40:29.680 --> 00:40:32.280
early experience this was this this age

00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.599
range is more

00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:39.280
open but when you there was a a a before

00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:42.720
and an after like that you were under

00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:44.680
the assumption that the world was a

00:40:44.680 --> 00:40:46.000
certain

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:48.400
way and then all of a sudden you

00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:51.760
realized ah the world's not like that at

00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.760
all like your whole operating

00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:58.880
system um and so I'm gonna give you just

00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:03.440
just a little example um to make it it's

00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:05.640
and so I remember I went to 12 years of

00:41:05.640 --> 00:41:07.720
Catholic school and at one point in high

00:41:07.720 --> 00:41:10.359
school I walked by The Faculty lounge

00:41:10.359 --> 00:41:13.319
and the door was open and I saw the

00:41:13.319 --> 00:41:16.040
teachers smoking and acting like regular

00:41:16.040 --> 00:41:18.240
people and my whole life I thought

00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:19.920
teachers and I knew that there were

00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:22.000
adults that smoked and but then I

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:23.920
thought teachers would like something

00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:26.640
different right like and then all of a

00:41:26.640 --> 00:41:29.599
sudden I realized like retroactively of

00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:32.119
course like it's all been like they're

00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:34.160
they're just people I didn't until then

00:41:34.160 --> 00:41:35.880
I did not

00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:38.680
actually I had this hidden operating

00:41:38.680 --> 00:41:40.760
assumption that they weren't didn't do

00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:42.680
that kind of stuff they were

00:41:42.680 --> 00:41:46.599
teachers um and so that's a that's just

00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:48.920
a childhood one but if you can think of

00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:50.520
On's

00:41:50.520 --> 00:41:54.560
um like Brian wrote a thing on

00:41:54.560 --> 00:41:58.400
kayabi uh which is a big big ones you

00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.000
might want to bring that in but a share

00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.560
when

00:42:02.560 --> 00:42:05.160
when a shift like that

00:42:05.160 --> 00:42:11.520
happened um and uh and also

00:42:11.520 --> 00:42:13.720
notice that it's the body that's

00:42:13.720 --> 00:42:16.359
shifting some somehow this the thing is

00:42:16.359 --> 00:42:18.200
get got gets or the thing gets

00:42:18.200 --> 00:42:21.160
reorganized or you know what is that

00:42:21.160 --> 00:42:23.240
what is that it's it's similar to what

00:42:23.240 --> 00:42:25.119
we the feeling what we did last time but

00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.319
it's not like a WR wrong it's more

00:42:28.319 --> 00:42:30.480
like

00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:33.640
what like you know what I'm saying like

00:42:33.640 --> 00:42:36.160
it's it's just a

00:42:36.160 --> 00:42:39.640
new like a a new uh Revelation or

00:42:39.640 --> 00:42:41.440
awareness or something okay does that

00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.520
make sense

00:42:43.520 --> 00:42:46.359
Kevin yeah the example you gave is like

00:42:46.359 --> 00:42:48.640
a very specific you know moment but

00:42:48.640 --> 00:42:51.040
could also be like a transformative

00:42:51.040 --> 00:42:53.839
period or like a yeah yeah it can be it

00:42:53.839 --> 00:42:56.400
can it can sometimes you get a hunch and

00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:58.520
then and little by little you get the

00:42:58.520 --> 00:43:01.040
ducks in a row and then you realize it

00:43:01.040 --> 00:43:03.319
can be over time but there's a before

00:43:03.319 --> 00:43:05.079
and after there's a person that was

00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.359
living in this world and it was

00:43:08.359 --> 00:43:11.079
just an illusion really it's just an

00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:16.359
assumption or and and and then that fell

00:43:16.359 --> 00:43:21.400
away okay I'm going to do

00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.079
this

00:43:28.240 --> 00:43:31.680
and I'm going to make

00:43:31.680 --> 00:43:33.559
it

00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:37.599
uh yes let's

00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:42.880
see um one two one two three okay I'm

00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.559
going to make it for 45 minutes and

00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:51.680
enjoy your conversation and enjoy your

00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:58.079
company

00:44:15.510 --> 00:44:23.380
[Music]

00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:28.280
all right all right what we

00:44:40.720 --> 00:44:43.680
got we have

00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:45.599
egrets have

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.960
egrets on the beach we're in service to

00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.119
our audience our paying audience that

00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.640
are never

00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.880
here

00:44:57.880 --> 00:44:59.920
these are not students these are actors

00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:03.240
who play students on

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:10.280
television what don't try this at

00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:17.520
home Sandy ended our session by reading

00:45:17.520 --> 00:45:21.480
your poem from this morning so I hadn't

00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.720
I hadn't read it but it was

00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:27.880
wonderful

00:45:30.240 --> 00:45:33.720
there are two of them right did

00:45:34.319 --> 00:45:37.559
you what it was a continuation wasn't it

00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.040
yeah yeah yeah so what what did you make

00:45:40.040 --> 00:45:44.160
of that well I'll tell you BBE read it

00:45:44.160 --> 00:45:47.400
to me when we were sitting on the sand

00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.319
in front of those eits that Matthew just

00:45:50.319 --> 00:45:53.520
mentioned and we didn't want to leave

00:45:53.520 --> 00:45:56.599
the Horizon over the Pacific Ocean

00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:59.079
to come back to be together that's why I

00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:02.599
was late what I got out of it was

00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:04.920
profound Bonita

00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:07.920
really

00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:13.520
yes this week I have a date certain for

00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:15.319
something I've mentioned that I'm going

00:46:15.319 --> 00:46:17.800
to be speaking to a class of a high

00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:21.160
school class at a Catholic school about

00:46:21.160 --> 00:46:24.440
what it was to be raised by my parents

00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:26.760
who came out who survived being

00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:31.359
prisoners in aitz during the

00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:37.280
Holocaust so sitting with the

00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.280
poem trying

00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:50.559
to get a a a view into who my parents

00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:52.520
were as

00:46:52.520 --> 00:46:54.800
individuals and

00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:58.319
how their

00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:03.839
entanglements were part of the

00:47:03.839 --> 00:47:06.400
life that I came

00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:10.000
through in the poem I

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.440
saw my

00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:20.880
father retrieving a stone from the

00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.720
runs and creating the impossible that

00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:28.599
you see right here right

00:47:54.720 --> 00:47:57.720
now

00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:26.280
I think I want to sh there something

00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:28.880
else beyond the

00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:33.720
poem thank you for uh feeling me I feel

00:48:33.720 --> 00:48:36.200
you feeling

00:48:36.200 --> 00:48:38.440
me

00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:41.280
um in our

00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:43.760
breakout I didn't speak

00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:47.839
to but I felt this

00:48:47.839 --> 00:48:51.440
um tension

00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:53.119
between

00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.079
third third person

00:48:57.079 --> 00:48:59.079
View

00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:01.440
and personal

00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:05.079
view around the issue of self and

00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:08.640
identity how can we have an identity

00:49:08.640 --> 00:49:11.280
when we're always changing everything

00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:14.200
moment to moment

00:49:15.200 --> 00:49:18.640
changing and what I'm bringing to that

00:49:18.640 --> 00:49:23.640
classroom with 13y olds is that it is

00:49:23.640 --> 00:49:28.280
through my IDE identity right here right

00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:31.880
now that my

00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:36.880
passion for divine will is

00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:41.200
enacted and you have that same energy as

00:49:41.200 --> 00:49:46.319
a 13y old to recognize moment to

00:49:46.319 --> 00:49:50.839
moment you can have the will to

00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:54.520
love oh my service person is

00:49:54.520 --> 00:49:57.520
here

00:49:57.700 --> 00:50:00.200
[Music]

00:50:00.200 --> 00:50:02.920
oh I just hung up on him he's at the

00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:05.680
door I'm gonna go I'll be right back but

00:50:05.680 --> 00:50:08.400
Phoebe I'll see the I'll see the video

00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.839
and Phoebe will let me know what

00:50:15.640 --> 00:50:18.119
happens I I think those kids are going

00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:19.880
to be really

00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:22.720
lucky

00:50:22.720 --> 00:50:25.040
man especially I don't know why but I

00:50:25.040 --> 00:50:27.040
feel like especially because they are in

00:50:27.040 --> 00:50:29.839
a Catholic surrounding I think that

00:50:29.839 --> 00:50:32.319
message will I don't know I think

00:50:32.319 --> 00:50:33.680
that'll hit them really

00:50:33.680 --> 00:50:37.240
well that'll be really

00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:55.160
nice well I do have to say that the poem

00:50:55.160 --> 00:50:58.160
came came out of a conversation that I

00:50:58.160 --> 00:51:02.280
had with a person who was

00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:07.880
Jewish who was struggling to make sense

00:51:08.319 --> 00:51:13.760
of their religion and Hamas and

00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:16.640
Israel and I decided to share it with

00:51:16.640 --> 00:51:19.280
this group

00:51:23.640 --> 00:51:27.599
so where is it is it just on the popup

00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:32.640
um on the website I think it's in

00:51:45.040 --> 00:51:47.720
notes what did you think of it Sandra I

00:51:47.720 --> 00:51:51.040
mean you seem to

00:51:54.359 --> 00:51:56.640
be

00:51:56.640 --> 00:52:01.000
well it's in our in our breakout it

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.200
seemed like the perfect Koda

00:52:05.200 --> 00:52:08.720
for our exploration

00:52:08.720 --> 00:52:12.520
of you know moments in time

00:52:12.520 --> 00:52:16.040
where we experienced a shift and at the

00:52:16.040 --> 00:52:17.640
same

00:52:17.640 --> 00:52:20.400
time as we went

00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:26.040
deeper those moments included um

00:52:26.040 --> 00:52:30.000
questions about identity and

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:35.240
um the the larger range of

00:52:35.240 --> 00:52:38.240
our

00:52:38.240 --> 00:52:41.799
connectedness and to me that that poem I

00:52:41.799 --> 00:52:43.880
mean it it sort of does the same thing

00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.000
in my body as all things seen perfectly

00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:48.160
are

00:52:48.160 --> 00:52:51.280
loved there's just a

00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:54.240
deep

00:52:54.240 --> 00:52:59.520
um way in which the actions that we do

00:52:59.520 --> 00:53:02.599
or participate in we can't

00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:04.880
know the

00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:07.680
impact and that place that you were

00:53:07.680 --> 00:53:10.359
speaking to earlier

00:53:10.359 --> 00:53:14.799
of the will to power and then this will

00:53:14.799 --> 00:53:18.760
to love and they're they they're they're

00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:20.799
entangled and

00:53:20.799 --> 00:53:24.680
they're they necessitate each other and

00:53:24.680 --> 00:53:29.079
that PO felt like all of that is in

00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:31.599
there and I don't know that I didn't see

00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:35.240
two parts so maybe I only saw one one

00:53:35.240 --> 00:53:37.559
part of

00:53:39.319 --> 00:53:42.119
it because I looked very early right I

00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:43.920
think I was right after you posted

00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:46.760
whichever part I

00:53:54.160 --> 00:53:57.160
read

00:54:13.720 --> 00:54:17.359
for me that the poem was I mean this the

00:54:17.359 --> 00:54:18.839
scale of it

00:54:18.839 --> 00:54:21.839
was

00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:24.359
um I don't know the scale seemed

00:54:24.359 --> 00:54:28.319
enormous when I read are we the stones

00:54:28.319 --> 00:54:31.200
that learn to

00:54:35.319 --> 00:54:37.599
speak and there's something about that

00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:42.280
line that that I have to get I have to

00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:46.160
both find and lose myself

00:54:50.720 --> 00:54:54.079
somehow are we the stones that learn to

00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:57.079
speak

00:55:34.720 --> 00:55:36.640
for me the line that haunts me I don't

00:55:36.640 --> 00:55:39.160
know where it came from or

00:55:39.160 --> 00:55:42.400
dream and what did the man save from the

00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:47.160
rubble after the bombs destroyed the

00:55:47.160 --> 00:55:53.319
world a stone that reminded him of his

00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.000
son

00:56:37.319 --> 00:56:39.720
you know I love it to bring it back to

00:56:39.720 --> 00:56:43.079
the module so here I

00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:49.200
go what's there for I forget the the

00:56:49.200 --> 00:56:53.160
number of Decades of years that the

00:56:53.160 --> 00:56:57.960
stone is hold ing something latent for

00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.079
it to

00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:01.839
be

00:57:01.839 --> 00:57:08.079
willed by the group or by the self into

00:57:09.160 --> 00:57:14.079
reality through the many epics of

00:57:14.160 --> 00:57:17.880
runes and I love what Ray that about the

00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.599
star with inss learning to speak as a

00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:25.400
stone that was in the poem

00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:29.359
that self that latent

00:57:29.359 --> 00:57:32.599
self we think that this talking self is

00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:36.240
the only one at least I

00:57:36.240 --> 00:57:43.319
do me and my mind do but there there

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:49.280
is a heartfelt sense that I am more than

00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:51.799
just

00:57:53.799 --> 00:57:56.799
that

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.799
well I read it to David and we were on

00:58:24.799 --> 00:58:29.480
on the uh Coast as he

00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:33.200
said and I wasn't looking at the

00:58:33.200 --> 00:58:37.240
Horizon I was with the incredible waves

00:58:37.240 --> 00:58:39.000
the sun was behind us and it's the first

00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:41.079
time that I've been on the coast here

00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:42.480
that we haven't done it in the afternoon

00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.359
when the sun's so the sun was behind us

00:58:44.359 --> 00:58:47.119
and shining on the water and the waters

00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:50.839
were cresting and then you know breaking

00:58:50.839 --> 00:58:54.039
and crashing I sat there feeling like

00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:59.240
orgasm M after orgasm after orgasm I

00:58:59.240 --> 00:59:01.640
didn't want to come to the class I

00:59:01.640 --> 00:59:07.319
wanted to be in orgasm it was really

00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:12.160
good I don't know what that has to do

00:59:12.160 --> 00:59:15.599
with the stones but it was also an

00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:17.160
experience

00:59:17.160 --> 00:59:20.160
of

00:59:21.200 --> 00:59:26.280
um so much life every everywhere and and

00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:30.000
and wanting to just you

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:35.119
know uh suspend myself into that all of

00:59:35.119 --> 00:59:38.359
that and

00:59:53.640 --> 00:59:56.640
be

01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:12.960
I think these are like telepathic Zoom

01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:17.200
calls everyone's just quiet

01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:26.559
and

01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:36.760
I think

01:00:36.799 --> 01:00:41.319
um what touches me is

01:00:41.319 --> 01:00:45.839
the your poem Bonnie it has such an

01:00:45.839 --> 01:00:47.880
expanse that it

01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:52.960
holds at the same time such an

01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:56.520
intimacy um

01:01:02.839 --> 01:01:07.319
and and in in our in our group we ended

01:01:07.319 --> 01:01:10.760
up talking about just some of the ways

01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:14.920
in which in the face of war and tragedy

01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:18.960
kind of the mundane kind of leaks

01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:23.359
through um Melina told a great story of

01:01:23.359 --> 01:01:27.599
what being in Portugal in the coup of

01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:31.359
the years of 73 and 74 in a coup and

01:01:31.359 --> 01:01:34.079
watching a tank roll through the streets

01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:36.960
and stop at a

01:01:42.359 --> 01:01:45.480
stoplight and because that's what you do

01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:48.280
right and

01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:52.000
then um I told a story of being in

01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:55.799
Armenia during a time of civil

01:01:55.799 --> 01:01:57.599
unrest

01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:00.200
where there were tanks that were brought

01:02:00.200 --> 01:02:02.720
out on the streets for a few days and

01:02:02.720 --> 01:02:05.400
this was kind of an unheard of thing in

01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:07.000
Armenia

01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:11.279
for the Army to um kind of pull out guns

01:02:11.279 --> 01:02:14.400
against its own people and but if you

01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:16.160
watch during the days that the tanks

01:02:16.160 --> 01:02:18.200
were out you could

01:02:18.200 --> 01:02:22.119
see um there were young boys that were

01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:24.599
hanging out on the top of the tanks and

01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:28.079
their mothers were bringing them

01:02:30.240 --> 01:02:33.240
lunch

01:02:33.279 --> 01:02:37.480
um yeah so these these were the stories

01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:40.640
about what kind

01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:46.079
of I think we were touching kind of what

01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:47.400
breaks

01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:52.119
through um these moments

01:02:52.119 --> 01:02:56.520
where um it doesn't seem possible for

01:02:56.520 --> 01:03:00.200
anything like that to to

01:03:02.720 --> 01:03:06.279
happen just ping pinging off

01:03:06.279 --> 01:03:09.480
that in what you just said Marie made me

01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:13.319
want to thank Ry and um Marie for

01:03:13.319 --> 01:03:16.440
listening to my story

01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:19.960
and I had

01:03:20.359 --> 01:03:23.520
this feeling of like oh because when you

01:03:23.520 --> 01:03:27.000
first talk about the to love Bonnie I

01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:30.279
was like like I didn't really get it but

01:03:30.279 --> 01:03:31.640
it's had this

01:03:31.640 --> 01:03:34.000
sense after telling my story of it's

01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:36.200
like will the will to love maybe has

01:03:36.200 --> 01:03:39.720
something to do with how

01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:41.520
like

01:03:41.520 --> 01:03:45.680
mundane tragedy or violence is in

01:03:45.680 --> 01:03:49.480
this yeah and then I mded the Water by

01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:50.850
talking about it

01:03:50.850 --> 01:03:52.799
[Music]

01:03:52.799 --> 01:03:56.839
um the will to love is like how

01:03:56.839 --> 01:03:58.559
mundane

01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:01.240
like violence can

01:04:01.240 --> 01:04:04.119
be in a beautiful way oh I don't

01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:06.839
know that clicks with

01:04:12.039 --> 01:04:16.359
anyone do you mean like how violence can

01:04:16.359 --> 01:04:17.960
like we have an idea of violence and

01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:19.920
it's like this big emotional thing but

01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:22.079
then when we see it it's just like oh

01:04:22.079 --> 01:04:24.440
you just like person just did that to

01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:28.319
person okay or something like

01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:36.279
that not

01:04:36.319 --> 01:04:39.680
quite or

01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:46.480
how it's about

01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:51.359
like the multiple context we can be

01:04:52.359 --> 01:04:56.160
with like

01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:00.839
in specific

01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:04.400
circumstances

01:05:04.680 --> 01:05:07.200
like

01:05:07.200 --> 01:05:10.480
this you don't

01:05:10.480 --> 01:05:12.520
question good or like you don't stop

01:05:12.520 --> 01:05:14.480
seeing the

01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.079
good

01:05:16.079 --> 01:05:19.240
even through an act of

01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:21.880
violence

01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:24.640
and like through a story of violence or

01:05:24.640 --> 01:05:28.400
being the in the periphery of

01:05:29.240 --> 01:05:32.319
it and even that's not quite

01:05:32.319 --> 01:05:35.039
articulating

01:05:53.079 --> 01:05:56.079
it

01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:57.599
like if you can see

01:05:57.599 --> 01:06:01.440
it over a

01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:04.319
bigger like rather than a small cause

01:06:04.319 --> 01:06:07.559
and effect where you see that if you if

01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:10.599
you can get in touch with

01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:14.960
like the bigger happening of

01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:19.720
that it's a different experience

01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:23.720
of the moment and again that's not quite

01:06:23.720 --> 01:06:28.319
touching up touching on it

01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:32.880
exactly I think that the poem played

01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:35.440
with that in in the sense

01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:37.960
that there's always a chance you send a

01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:40.039
home like that to in this

01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:42.799
context and it makes it sound

01:06:42.799 --> 01:06:45.319
like you know here you're a retro

01:06:45.319 --> 01:06:48.119
animist and it's okay we have Stones

01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:49.960
then why don't we just love the stones

01:06:49.960 --> 01:06:51.960
you know I mean or

01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:54.599
or um which obviously VI L it's not what

01:06:54.599 --> 01:06:57.680
I meant but it's

01:07:02.359 --> 01:07:06.240
this it's noticing that

01:07:06.240 --> 01:07:09.559
something the good is in the man's

01:07:09.559 --> 01:07:11.720
gesture and we were talking about this

01:07:11.720 --> 01:07:14.480
today my I got some guests over in the

01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:17.839
kitchen and we were saying

01:07:20.559 --> 01:07:23.400
like like it's a two-way street you know

01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:26.400
it's not just that the man picked up

01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:28.599
like the stone like a teddy bear and

01:07:28.599 --> 01:07:31.200
pretended or baby picks up a doll and

01:07:31.200 --> 01:07:34.440
pretended it was his son that's not yeah

01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:35.720
that's not what happened there's

01:07:35.720 --> 01:07:37.720
something about the stone about the

01:07:37.720 --> 01:07:40.440
stuff of the

01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:46.000
earth that kind of spoke to him it was

01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:47.520
you know it's like a two-way street that

01:07:47.520 --> 01:07:50.520
there was there's something not symbolic

01:07:50.520 --> 01:07:53.440
but real this is the stone remember this

01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.359
the get gave me

01:07:57.799 --> 01:08:00.440
this you know the record of man has been

01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.920
erased but this stone is like 37 million

01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:07.240
years of story in it or something like

01:08:07.240 --> 01:08:10.240
that

01:08:15.040 --> 01:08:20.600
um and then noticing the ongoingness

01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:23.480
of the next iteration you know or the

01:08:23.480 --> 01:08:27.120
next iteration and that maybe we're just

01:08:27.120 --> 01:08:30.239
one iter how many iterations in are

01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:33.199
we you know how many iterations in are

01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:36.199
We

01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:40.120
and yeah so these are this is the

01:08:40.120 --> 01:08:43.799
zooming out to the Transcendent kind of

01:08:43.799 --> 01:08:47.199
experience but it's not dise effective

01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:49.000
because I'm really I'm talking about

01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:52.600
Stone I'm not talking

01:08:52.799 --> 01:08:56.600
about a metaphor for a stone you

01:08:56.600 --> 01:09:01.120
know um yeah something like

01:09:01.120 --> 01:09:04.679
that the I know the time is I'm waiting

01:09:04.679 --> 01:09:07.040
to hear The Barking but I know the time

01:09:07.040 --> 01:09:09.960
is short but I the filter that I heard

01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:13.560
that through catala is uh is really

01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:15.520
beautiful

01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:18.319
that kind of taking

01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:22.679
that wider view happens through the

01:09:22.679 --> 01:09:25.400
doorway the threshold of

01:09:25.400 --> 01:09:29.159
caring even though the violence is

01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:32.679
disgusting that from our

01:09:32.679 --> 01:09:36.440
caring we can open to include and move

01:09:36.440 --> 01:09:39.040
with that's the way I heard what you

01:09:39.040 --> 01:09:43.279
said the capacity it's that that caring

01:09:43.279 --> 01:09:46.319
somehow is still available to us so

01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:48.359
thank you

01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:50.279
yeah

01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:56.920
yeah to be to to have an even though

01:09:56.920 --> 01:09:58.440
yeah

01:09:58.440 --> 01:10:02.679
that it there's this dis like not I

01:10:02.679 --> 01:10:07.199
would never want for that event but it

01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:09.480
opened a

01:10:09.480 --> 01:10:14.159
capacity and that was the before and

01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:17.679
after that I didn't know I

01:10:17.679 --> 01:10:20.400
had and it was

01:10:20.400 --> 01:10:24.280
like and yeah but it and it

01:10:24.280 --> 01:10:27.040
the felt sense of it wasn't like it was

01:10:27.040 --> 01:10:29.040
just

01:10:29.040 --> 01:10:34.040
like yeah like it's in it's in the

01:10:34.040 --> 01:10:38.760
system of my capacity

01:10:38.960 --> 01:10:42.280
yeah yeah and it's kind of like mirring

01:10:42.280 --> 01:10:45.520
the zoom out without getting spaced up

01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:48.440
because then you get you're you're in

01:10:48.440 --> 01:10:50.480
your capacity you're in your will you're

01:10:50.480 --> 01:10:52.400
in your care and it

01:10:52.400 --> 01:10:56.640
requires like physical energy like it it

01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:58.440
and it's you know even if you're not

01:10:58.440 --> 01:11:00.600
going to do anything about it it's a

01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:03.560
physical yeah simultaneously it's not

01:11:03.560 --> 01:11:06.159
just Transcendence I saw the face of God

01:11:06.159 --> 01:11:08.560
and blah blah blah because then you just

01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:12.480
zoom out and it's like you don't care

01:11:12.480 --> 01:11:16.400
but this it's a zoom out and this will

01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:18.760
this willing like you can see it in her

01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:22.360
eyes when she is talking like yeah so

01:11:22.360 --> 01:11:25.960
there's some kind of thing like that

01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:28.040
happening yeah Marie was like it's just

01:11:28.040 --> 01:11:30.040
like an isness yeah it's like you're

01:11:30.040 --> 01:11:32.080
just in touch with an isness and when

01:11:32.080 --> 01:11:34.080
Marie said that I was like because I was

01:11:34.080 --> 01:11:36.800
like 14 and I was like I wasn't like I

01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:39.159
was just like I just got in touch with

01:11:39.159 --> 01:11:40.960
an

01:11:40.960 --> 01:11:44.880
isness so this is also um and I'll just

01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:47.480
end because I didn't just to put it on

01:11:47.480 --> 01:11:50.800
the tape why did we do these two prompts

01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:54.040
because morality is is closing the gap

01:11:54.040 --> 01:11:56.880
between the is and the a so last week we

01:11:56.880 --> 01:12:01.120
did oh I can feel the art but if you're

01:12:01.120 --> 01:12:06.480
not if you can't perceive the is then

01:12:06.480 --> 01:12:08.480
you still can't do the equation I mean

01:12:08.480 --> 01:12:11.239
this is kind of formulaic thinking but

01:12:11.239 --> 01:12:13.199
the there's two bookends right you have

01:12:13.199 --> 01:12:16.560
to be able to have this muscle the art

01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:20.000
regardless what the adults say but you

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:22.719
also have to be able to like you're

01:12:22.719 --> 01:12:28.560
saying just see it it see it and um

01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:32.719
that's a capacity also so yeah excellent

01:12:32.719 --> 01:12:34.239
that we ended with that because I forgot

01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:37.040
that that's why we did these these two

01:12:37.040 --> 01:12:39.280
promps okay thank you my friends it went

01:12:39.280 --> 01:12:40.360
very

01:12:40.360 --> 01:12:43.000
fast um I'll see you on Saturday some of

01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:46.560
you and some of other of

01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:49.960
you



## Cohort 3

00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.639
look at all these

00:00:10.639 --> 00:00:14.599
people these wonderful

00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:18.920
people I'm so

00:00:22.680 --> 00:00:25.160
blessed you horrible to wake up and

00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.439
realize it's just a dream I've made you

00:00:27.439 --> 00:00:30.439
all up in my mind and I've been

00:00:30.439 --> 00:00:32.880
suffering from some kind of severe

00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.239
psychotic hallucinations for the last

00:00:35.239 --> 00:00:36.680
three

00:00:36.680 --> 00:00:41.239
years still I would have enjoyed

00:00:44.879 --> 00:00:49.840
it look get some people still coming in

00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:58.239
here there's Raj

00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:01.920
yes

00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.800
okay let me while we're waiting here a

00:01:03.800 --> 00:01:05.560
little bit we're going to have a prompt

00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:07.680
again today I think they've been

00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.600
extremely uh productive that's kind of a

00:01:11.600 --> 00:01:14.080
funny word sounds like we working in a

00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:16.799
factory here maybe there's a kind of

00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:18.720
factory

00:01:18.720 --> 00:01:23.200
um so the first session The Prompt was

00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:24.560
to

00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:27.920
remember um a time when you were

00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:32.479
young when um you saw something adults

00:01:32.479 --> 00:01:36.920
did and you knew what was wrong you just

00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.560
like yeah had this sense that this is

00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.200
not right um and we got in touch with

00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:47.000
that natural

00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:51.439
intelligence that um it's a kind of

00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:53.880
seeing I mean it's just it's just a

00:01:53.880 --> 00:01:55.799
natural intelligence what it feels like

00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:58.960
when something um does not seem to be

00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:01.520
right and and I remember like feeling

00:02:01.520 --> 00:02:03.960
into it myself when you're a kid I can

00:02:03.960 --> 00:02:06.479
remember searching for like a context

00:02:06.479 --> 00:02:08.560
maybe I'm not understanding you know

00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:13.200
like do feel that process of trying to

00:02:13.200 --> 00:02:17.480
um make sure you see it correctly and

00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:20.959
all these cues and I remember looking at

00:02:20.959 --> 00:02:23.120
I can still see my father the way he

00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:27.920
lefted and and so I can remember really

00:02:27.920 --> 00:02:30.920
being careful to keep trying to

00:02:30.920 --> 00:02:34.319
understand it and and that being held

00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:36.640
with this sense that no it's not right

00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:40.879
you know so um we so feeling into that

00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.720
and that is the art right so morality we

00:02:43.720 --> 00:02:46.319
can say is closing the gap between the

00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:49.200
is and the art so we we know we have

00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:51.360
this muscle

00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:55.159
about the art and and we do sometimes

00:02:55.159 --> 00:03:00.840
discover that um we didn't you know

00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:03.400
the we don't we're not really so

00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.080
concerned right now with the content but

00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:11.319
with that muscle that um is prec prior

00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:14.159
to the conditions of you learning what's

00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.560
good or bad like what I in my story no

00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:21.000
one ever told me uh that that was good

00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.720
or bad uh it just I knew it wasn't a

00:03:25.720 --> 00:03:30.720
good thing so in the second PR

00:03:30.720 --> 00:03:34.040
we uh told stories of either When We

00:03:34.040 --> 00:03:40.840
Were Young or um in more recently when

00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.760
we found out or we discovered or we

00:03:43.760 --> 00:03:47.280
slowly realized that we were operating

00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:49.720
on a set of assumptions about the world

00:03:49.720 --> 00:03:52.680
that just was not right that it was

00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.840
wrong and we have this sense that wow

00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:59.840
you know it could be all kinds of things

00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:01.640
like

00:04:01.640 --> 00:04:02.660
um

00:04:02.660 --> 00:04:05.280
[Music]

00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.879
um I'm I'm I'm trying to think of a

00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:09.519
better one but this one's Salient for me

00:04:09.519 --> 00:04:12.480
I remember being very happy when we

00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:14.519
built this business and we got so we had

00:04:14.519 --> 00:04:17.600
401K plans for everyone and then after

00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.160
you know the recession you realized that

00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.160
th this wasn't really because people

00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:24.320
wanted to be nice to their employes but

00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:26.160
the banks needed more money because they

00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:27.800
were packaging these financial

00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:29.280
instruments blah blah blah blah blah

00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:32.720
blah and that they and and so you

00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:35.600
realize like whoa you know this was not

00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:39.360
what was happening at all and so um this

00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.400
is so now we have these two book ends

00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:45.800
the art is something that happens

00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.919
naturally and this process of

00:04:48.919 --> 00:04:51.600
discovering that you your assumptions

00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.080
about the way way the world works also

00:04:54.080 --> 00:04:58.639
goes through a process right and so if

00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:00.280
we're going to talk about morality if we

00:05:00.280 --> 00:05:02.039
want to close the gap between the is and

00:05:02.039 --> 00:05:04.919
the art we we need to know what the is

00:05:04.919 --> 00:05:07.680
is what the such what well this is the

00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.400
way it is you know people have been at

00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:13.000
War this kind of came out last time like

00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.280
in killing each other ever since time

00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:17.840
Memorial um you don't want to have an A

00:05:17.840 --> 00:05:20.400
and over here a fantasy right or a and

00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:23.680
over here a dystopian conspir you know

00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.400
what I'm saying conspiracy theory so

00:05:25.400 --> 00:05:28.479
it's very important when we talk about

00:05:28.479 --> 00:05:33.199
morality is to also keep improving the

00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:36.360
the is and that's probably in the kind

00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:39.600
of world we live in um an endless

00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.720
project a lifetime project because the

00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.240
is constantly

00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.639
changes um

00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:52.759
so um so just by saying if there is the

00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:56.720
if the process of the is is ongoing then

00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:01.039
the is a relationship is Al also ongoing

00:06:01.039 --> 00:06:04.960
um so we're talking about a kind of uh

00:06:04.960 --> 00:06:07.039
capacity that on the one hand is innate

00:06:07.039 --> 00:06:10.800
but also evolves so an evolving innate

00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:16.080
capacity does that make sense okay

00:06:16.080 --> 00:06:19.599
good um we talked about some other

00:06:19.599 --> 00:06:21.479
things that were really important last

00:06:21.479 --> 00:06:23.199
time but unless it comes up again like

00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.080
the whole Justice eths ethics and moral

00:06:26.080 --> 00:06:27.720
uh we could talk about that again today

00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.440
but that is actually for a little later

00:06:29.440 --> 00:06:34.680
L on um and uh we'll we'll get that last

00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.880
time we also talked

00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:40.479
about um because it came out naturally

00:06:40.479 --> 00:06:43.120
and we're moving toward that is the

00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.599
sense that um morality has to do with

00:06:46.599 --> 00:06:49.400
choice and decision okay unless you're

00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:51.759
just a you know you're just a professor

00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:52.680
in some

00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:55.400
University having a theory of

00:06:55.400 --> 00:07:00.280
morality um and in in our in in recent

00:07:00.280 --> 00:07:03.160
times most of the the Phil philosophy

00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:05.360
around morality the philosophical

00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:07.360
psychology has to do with moral

00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:11.280
reasoning not with moral acts um so so

00:07:11.280 --> 00:07:16.440
people might the the the uh common one

00:07:16.440 --> 00:07:20.400
is um they ask people of all different

00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:24.240
ages uh if the husband should steal the

00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.360
medicine in order to uh save his wife

00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:32.720
almost everybody says yes um but the

00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.599
reasons they give grow in complexity and

00:07:35.599 --> 00:07:38.759
Nuance Through Time right so that's just

00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:40.639
by saying that we're not that

00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:43.800
particularly interested in how the

00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:46.560
reasons that you give grow in complexity

00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.840
that's that's one thing that's the

00:07:49.840 --> 00:07:52.159
that's a psychological

00:07:52.159 --> 00:07:54.240
developmental uh inquiry and we're

00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:57.360
interested more in

00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:00.280
um what is what is it why do people

00:08:00.280 --> 00:08:03.360
answer the question yes just regardless

00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:04.960
of how sophisticated their their

00:08:04.960 --> 00:08:09.319
reasoning is um

00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:12.319
so

00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:17.199
um yeah so

00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.400
um what we're more interested in is what

00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:22.759
we called last time the Transcendent

00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.639
aspect of moral morality which is making

00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.800
a choice and taking an action

00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.039
and that we call this

00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:33.760
Transcendent

00:08:33.760 --> 00:08:39.399
because um you can never really know

00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:41.479
100%

00:08:41.479 --> 00:08:44.320
the consequences of your action you have

00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:48.440
to act with within the space of at least

00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:51.120
some determinancy and when it when

00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.360
questions are

00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.959
really heavily moral questions you'll

00:08:56.959 --> 00:08:59.200
find there's usually much more into

00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:00.519
determinancy

00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:02.279
um

00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.040
so

00:09:04.040 --> 00:09:08.200
um so we noticed that this is an aspect

00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.440
a risk or a challenge um when we take

00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.959
moral talking about the moral animal

00:09:15.959 --> 00:09:17.800
seriously right we're not just

00:09:17.800 --> 00:09:20.079
interested in moral reasoning we're

00:09:20.079 --> 00:09:23.519
interested to see if people choose an

00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:26.720
act how they choose and act and what

00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.519
that experience is like to have to act

00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.040
um when you're not sure do you get to

00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:36.959
something like a leap of faith or is it

00:09:36.959 --> 00:09:39.040
more like you just get to be desperate I

00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:40.920
mean these These are interesting

00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:43.160
interesting

00:09:43.160 --> 00:09:47.640
questions um in some cases um inside

00:09:47.640 --> 00:09:50.120
that indeterminancy people get to a

00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:52.720
point of clarity actually right

00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.000
sometimes you just know this is what I'm

00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:58.120
going to do um that's not the same as

00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:02.120
being 100% sure of what the outcomes are

00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.640
you can just be aund you could be 100%

00:10:04.640 --> 00:10:06.800
sure that this is the action you're

00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:10.240
going to take so there is sometimes this

00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.839
overwhelming sense of clarity moral

00:10:12.839 --> 00:10:14.640
Clarity or what they would call A

00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:18.760
distinct idea the early human stuff you

00:10:18.760 --> 00:10:21.920
could have moral Clarity but it doesn't

00:10:21.920 --> 00:10:25.959
mean um and if you think it's

00:10:25.959 --> 00:10:28.480
because but it it shouldn't be attached

00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:30.360
to that you know exactly what the

00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:32.519
consequences of your action are it's

00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:34.440
more like I have moral Clarity and the

00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:36.920
rest is up to God like I don't know I

00:10:36.920 --> 00:10:38.839
don't I can't there's too many variables

00:10:38.839 --> 00:10:42.320
in God and and so it's not that you

00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:44.560
don't you might not experience U moral

00:10:44.560 --> 00:10:46.800
Clarity so these are all the kinds of

00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:49.040
things that are in and if you notice we

00:10:49.040 --> 00:10:50.560
call it the moral animal because we're

00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:53.079
talking about all all kinds of like

00:10:53.079 --> 00:10:55.200
embodied Sensations the embodied

00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.600
sensation of knowing that's not right

00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:00.240
the embodied sensation of of like gee

00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.079
the world actually doesn't work like

00:11:02.079 --> 00:11:05.680
that the embodied sensation of um of

00:11:05.680 --> 00:11:08.639
indeterminancy in the in the face of

00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:10.680
having to make a important choice and

00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:13.279
the embodied sensation of coming to

00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.480
Clarity around something which is not

00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.200
which is not the same as knowing Phoebe

00:11:27.959 --> 00:11:30.959
yeah

00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.519
I I had it upside down I want to have

00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:40.839
a add a a metaphor that David and I were

00:11:40.839 --> 00:11:44.200
working with this morning

00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:48.480
um and I was I had the metaphor of um

00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.160
bringing all of myself

00:11:51.160 --> 00:11:57.040
to uh to direct relationship with life

00:11:57.040 --> 00:12:00.360
as if I were a ship and I want to be my

00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:04.639
whole ship and then uh how do I navigate

00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:07.399
the ship and one of the the metaphor

00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.360
that came up this morning is um David's

00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:12.560
had the metaphor of trim tab which

00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:15.279
is what is it

00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.440
again it's the rudder on a

00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.360
ship if you wanted to

00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.120
move you just turn the rudder a little

00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.279
bit but this trim tab

00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.600
mechanism allows the small small turn to

00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:35.040
create a big movement in the whole ship

00:12:35.040 --> 00:12:38.360
it's just this trim tab is this little

00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.120
thing that makes a small move into a

00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.639
large

00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:46.959
effect and so I can't remember what we

00:12:46.959 --> 00:12:49.160
were talking about but what occurred to

00:12:49.160 --> 00:12:50.279
me

00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:51.959
was

00:12:51.959 --> 00:12:56.240
um in this you know how do what does it

00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:59.519
mean to have my Will Al align with

00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:04.399
Divine will or uh do I let go of me and

00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:06.880
become somebody else and and but the

00:13:06.880 --> 00:13:09.480
metaphor that was really exciting this

00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.920
morning was being the

00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:15.839
trimtab actually allowing myself Moment

00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:20.360
by Moment by moment to to be that place

00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:22.959
of potency that

00:13:22.959 --> 00:13:28.320
allows uh a new Vista that allows a new

00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:30.040
trajectory

00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:35.240
um not being somebody that

00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:39.680
um manipulates the trim T but being the

00:13:39.680 --> 00:13:40.639
trim

00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.959
T

00:13:42.959 --> 00:13:45.560
um and and then the feeling with that

00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:46.560
also

00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:49.560
is

00:13:49.680 --> 00:13:53.320
um if I'm busy being the trimtab I have

00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.600
no idea where the ship is headed I have

00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:59.560
no idea what the destination is

00:13:59.560 --> 00:14:02.959
I just know that if I stay right here

00:14:02.959 --> 00:14:07.079
and be the trimtab that there's so much

00:14:07.079 --> 00:14:10.279
more that's possible yeah and that and

00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:11.959
that my ship can

00:14:11.959 --> 00:14:16.000
head even my ship can become something

00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.800
different and as I'm talking I'm feeling

00:14:19.800 --> 00:14:23.160
the waves of the ocean that's becoming

00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:25.480
an inner experience right now which

00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:30.680
is really yummy

00:14:32.560 --> 00:14:35.240
so that's beautiful because one of the

00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:39.480
things that fits in this module that I

00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:41.000
didn't really think of we were going to

00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:42.480
talk about

00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.759
but I call it you know you you're poetic

00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:49.399
you call it the trim tab I I I call it

00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:53.199
the limiting Quantum of moral action

00:14:53.199 --> 00:14:57.279
right so it's very sounds very physics

00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.399
like um

00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:02.680
um but I like and I I love it's Buck Mr

00:15:02.680 --> 00:15:04.440
Fuller right talked about the trimp T

00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:07.360
but okay so the limiting Quantum of

00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:10.240
moral action is so you're talking about

00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.199
the trim tab it's just making all the

00:15:13.199 --> 00:15:17.279
right small adjustments all the time and

00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.399
there's a feeling tone to it right

00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:22.120
there's for as your human trim

00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:29.680
tab and um and one of the things about

00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:32.399
uh this module or the way I teach it is

00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:38.319
that um people we it we often um are

00:15:38.319 --> 00:15:41.720
overwhelmed because we think morality

00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.319
plays only plays on the big stage like

00:15:45.319 --> 00:15:48.000
we have big question about the morality

00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.839
between Israel's response to and we

00:15:50.839 --> 00:15:52.319
think and we

00:15:52.319 --> 00:15:55.040
know what am I going to do about it

00:15:55.040 --> 00:15:57.680
right um and those are interesting

00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:01.279
questions but the trim tab approach

00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.480
which is the actual more powerful

00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.480
approach is what is moral Clarity in

00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:09.720
every moment to moment subject to

00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.160
subject encounter and can I do a better

00:16:13.160 --> 00:16:16.600
job in these small you know that's why

00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:18.839
it's called a Quantum like these small

00:16:18.839 --> 00:16:24.319
spaces between me and you even even um

00:16:24.319 --> 00:16:27.199
even me in an object like this coffee

00:16:27.199 --> 00:16:29.120
cup because when I ENT interact with

00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:33.319
this coffee cup this feeling of it this

00:16:33.319 --> 00:16:35.920
this noticing of the shape how the

00:16:35.920 --> 00:16:38.639
quality in which I interact with it

00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.480
ingresses a certain kind of subjectivity

00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.720
into me which then creates the potential

00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.279
more or less potential for good there's

00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.000
always every

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.519
action is not there's no trivial actions

00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.560
there's no trivial actions and um we're

00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:00.279
not we're fallible people so so we also

00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:04.439
uh can build on mistakes um so so you

00:17:04.439 --> 00:17:06.439
know sometimes it's going backwards to

00:17:06.439 --> 00:17:10.839
go forwards I'm not saying that that EV

00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.919
but um by our own you know the

00:17:14.919 --> 00:17:18.000
metaphysics internal external relations

00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.439
the Quantum of action it's not

00:17:21.439 --> 00:17:23.959
especially a big moral question about

00:17:23.959 --> 00:17:27.839
how to hold and appreciate this cup um

00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.679
but as if I can add some quality of that

00:17:31.679 --> 00:17:36.760
to the cup or making pizza um then even

00:17:36.760 --> 00:17:40.000
if e you know even if it only improves

00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.720
my own internal

00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:45.039
subjectivity then chances are when I'm

00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.559
hit with one of these moral questions

00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:49.280
and there's a lot of pressure and are

00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:52.200
people going to like me chances are that

00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.799
it's easier for me to do the right

00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.450
thing um yeah Raj

00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:00.159
[Music]

00:18:00.159 --> 00:18:02.320
um thanks Monty and apologies if this

00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:05.240
has been covered already but I just um

00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.799
this conversation around uh moral

00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.960
Clarity moment to moment

00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.159
um what's coming up for me is the

00:18:15.159 --> 00:18:21.440
potential blindness to the um logic

00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:23.880
structures that actually for us

00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:25.880
contextualize what's moral and what's

00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:27.880
not moral or what's the right choice or

00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:32.039
the wrong choice and that that what

00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.360
seems to be important right now is to

00:18:34.360 --> 00:18:37.120
actually question the logic structures

00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:39.000
that have gotten us to where we are

00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.960
today which is the things seem to be

00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.440
unraveling so I'm just wondering if you

00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:47.600
might speak a bit to a bit to that uh as

00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:50.159
a way of contextualizing moral actions

00:18:50.159 --> 00:18:54.640
or the movements of trip tabs trim tabs

00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.360
yeah so I'll I'll speak to it we didn't

00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:00.640
really talk about about that you know uh

00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.520
hopefully we'll get a lot more written

00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:05.799
down in the book but um

00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:07.919
so there's a couple of different

00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:11.159
responses so the Logics of the situation

00:19:11.159 --> 00:19:13.360
understanding the context a big part of

00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:18.400
the bookend of what is the case is that

00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.440
right because

00:19:23.360 --> 00:19:27.080
um you can have you can see something no

00:19:27.080 --> 00:19:28.880
it's wrong

00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.280
and then exercise your best moral

00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:34.200
Clarity and you didn't get the context

00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.480
right uh so

00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.520
um you know there's a lot of scams where

00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:42.760
people think they're contributing to

00:19:42.760 --> 00:19:44.600
something good and they didn't

00:19:44.600 --> 00:19:45.799
understand the context to actually

00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.280
contributing to something bad and so we

00:19:48.280 --> 00:19:50.000
wouldn't necessarily that say that's a

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.320
moral sin but it's a it's problematic

00:19:53.320 --> 00:19:56.679
from moral it's a problematic moral

00:19:56.679 --> 00:19:59.440
action um but one of the things we did

00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.120
say last time and um we we might if you

00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:05.440
want we can talk more about it

00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.760
is the conversation on on

00:20:09.760 --> 00:20:15.400
morals today um is is usually seen

00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.039
through two lenses the uh moral

00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:21.919
reasoning which I just talked about

00:20:21.919 --> 00:20:25.600
um and um there's a lot to say about

00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:28.320
that I'm not going to write about it um

00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:30.720
because it's been written ad nauseum and

00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.360
I and I don't think it's very powerful

00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:35.840
because people can also be sophisticated

00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:38.360
reasoners and convince themselves of

00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:41.000
something that's morally suspect right

00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:43.919
so um we're trying to do something more

00:20:43.919 --> 00:20:45.880
embodied um but the other thing that

00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.640
usually goes around with morals is

00:20:49.840 --> 00:20:52.360
values and we've said this before but I

00:20:52.360 --> 00:20:55.200
think it's very important to to to say

00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:01.760
it again um I believe in this this idea

00:21:01.760 --> 00:21:04.039
this imaginary of the moral animal as

00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.840
the organ or the new human we have to

00:21:06.840 --> 00:21:11.159
separate values from Mor conversations

00:21:11.159 --> 00:21:12.919
around

00:21:12.919 --> 00:21:15.720
morality we can put values next to

00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:17.520
ethics that's a different question but

00:21:17.520 --> 00:21:20.960
let me just say why

00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.320
um there's two things we've done in the

00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:25.840
modern era we're we're very uh

00:21:25.840 --> 00:21:29.159
interested in values and then grading

00:21:29.159 --> 00:21:30.960
grading them so you have pre-modern

00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.240
values modern values postmodern values

00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.679
this serves this this this is a sense

00:21:36.679 --> 00:21:39.039
making tool it makes meaning out of

00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.279
things um but

00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.320
um when you really look at it the

00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:49.360
problem is that values are not good

00:21:49.360 --> 00:21:52.559
goods and what I mean by Goods here is g

00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:54.760
capital G the

00:21:54.760 --> 00:22:00.039
good values are not Goods in all context

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:03.919
texts so here's a value reciprocity it's

00:22:03.919 --> 00:22:08.320
a nice thing but it's not a good in all

00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:11.200
contexts if you're working B based on

00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:13.559
reciprocity with your newborn it's not a

00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:15.279
good it's like what am I getting out of

00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:20.760
it is that fair right um so time and

00:22:20.760 --> 00:22:22.760
time again you will see that values are

00:22:22.760 --> 00:22:25.240
not Goods in all context so we don't

00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:26.880
want to work with values in the moral

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.159
sphere we want to work with the

00:22:31.159 --> 00:22:35.080
good and this is gets also I understand

00:22:35.080 --> 00:22:40.080
to be problematic but I'm just I have to

00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:45.600
just making that obvious

00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:48.480
again um yeah

00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.480
Phoebe I really like your question Rajan

00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:53.799
I want I'd like to speak to it from the

00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:55.000
perspective of

00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.960
trimtab cool um that um

00:23:01.320 --> 00:23:03.960
the potential blindness to logic

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.799
structures that contextualize moral

00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.840
choice I I think

00:23:10.840 --> 00:23:14.200
um if we try to figure it out that can

00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.240
be like a freaking PhD and we still

00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.679
haven't moved the trim tab at all and

00:23:20.679 --> 00:23:23.200
what I'm wondering my experience of that

00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.799
is that our that we know the logic

00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:28.919
structures that are contextualizing

00:23:28.919 --> 00:23:31.440
moral choice in our

00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.159
bodies we can feel it we can feel

00:23:34.159 --> 00:23:37.200
something is not right something is

00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.240
constraining me and so maybe okay this

00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.240
is my thought about this right I'm not

00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.159
saying I'm right but this is how I

00:23:44.159 --> 00:23:45.480
experience what you're

00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:50.159
saying is maybe the practice of being

00:23:50.159 --> 00:23:54.840
the trim tab is what in this

00:23:54.840 --> 00:23:59.360
moment opens up the space

00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:01.919
there's something operative that is

00:24:01.919 --> 00:24:04.240
constraining that's making me think in a

00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:05.919
way that actually doesn't feel good so

00:24:05.919 --> 00:24:09.000
that's maybe that's how I operate that's

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:10.720
but I want to share

00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.200
uh this idea of the quantum I want to

00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.919
just add a little story and that is that

00:24:15.919 --> 00:24:17.720
one time I was home I think I was with

00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.120
my granddaughters and um there was some

00:24:21.120 --> 00:24:23.279
great class it probably was Bonnie's but

00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:24.520
Bonnie I'm not gonna say it was

00:24:24.520 --> 00:24:26.640
necessarily your class but there was

00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.320
something going on and I couldn't do it

00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:32.399
uh because I was in charge of my

00:24:32.399 --> 00:24:34.799
granddaughters but what I

00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.159
felt and I don't remember the whole

00:24:37.159 --> 00:24:38.880
thing but what I felt and this is the

00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:40.960
word that's coming is

00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.720
myum like I'm doing here whatever's

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.200
going on there like the bigger picture

00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.880
that I'm tuned into I don't have to be

00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:52.120
there I have to be

00:24:52.120 --> 00:24:56.440
here and I can trust the here and

00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:58.840
whatever local thing thing I'm doing

00:24:58.840 --> 00:25:02.399
here because I have expanded

00:25:02.399 --> 00:25:05.960
my what I would call prayer but I've

00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:10.679
expanded uh my

00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:14.440
participation and whatever I've expanded

00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.600
it to and whatever I care about and

00:25:17.600 --> 00:25:20.559
whatever I'm wanting to make a

00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:22.080
difference

00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:25.720
in is is there it's in the field it's

00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:29.240
there it's in me and so if I can trust

00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:35.320
that this little piece here you know is

00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:42.480
uh where this can live out all the time

00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.919
all the time if I can just allow that

00:25:45.919 --> 00:25:51.480
and and trust myself and trust that that

00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:54.760
compus or that that being the trim tab

00:25:54.760 --> 00:25:59.200
to to stay in that place of creating you

00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.480
know that uh directivity that openness

00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.840
to um what feels good that's how I would

00:26:06.840 --> 00:26:10.720
put it and

00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:16.240
well the one piece I'm not hearing about

00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.039
our

00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:22.120
um at least my understanding in our

00:26:22.120 --> 00:26:24.600
conversation this morning where trim PR

00:26:24.600 --> 00:26:28.000
was brought up is Phoebe lean lean

00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.640
toward my

00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.840
face we're sitting face to face she

00:26:33.840 --> 00:26:38.120
leaned toward me and said be the trim T

00:26:38.120 --> 00:26:39.880
and so

00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.240
this moment that she

00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:47.679
noticed the melum was at play that is

00:26:47.679 --> 00:26:51.840
the trimtab the turn to the bigger

00:26:51.840 --> 00:26:55.080
picture it's not the action that comes

00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:58.440
from that the first trim tab is the

00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.399
slight

00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:08.600
turn that we choose to make to find

00:27:09.600 --> 00:27:13.559
some expression of that

00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:18.080
embodied Clarity we have like Reach For

00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:20.440
the Good Samaritan in the ditch not

00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.200
knowing if he's going to spit at you or

00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.039
accept your

00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:33.120
hand you know it's your time to reach

00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:38.600
for that

00:27:38.600 --> 00:27:45.039
Soul so the turn is a simple little turn

00:27:45.159 --> 00:27:48.559
within you know I um I really appreciate

00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:50.880
the the metaphor of

00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.919
melum and the being and so for me what I

00:27:54.919 --> 00:27:58.840
hear is the logic structure not of of

00:27:58.840 --> 00:28:01.440
Separation but of

00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.600
entanglement and that if the logic

00:28:03.600 --> 00:28:05.279
structure is

00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:09.480
entanglement then what does it what then

00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:12.399
is being here whether you're here in

00:28:12.399 --> 00:28:14.679
this screen or with your granddaughter

00:28:14.679 --> 00:28:16.640
like what's the entanglement at least

00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.799
that's sort of how I'm holding it and I

00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.880
think we have 5,000 years or 10,000

00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.679
years of of Separation as a logic

00:28:27.679 --> 00:28:29.600
structure and I feel like maybe we're

00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.080
reaching into and challenging that at

00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:34.559
least that's how it's landing on me yeah

00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.320
so this is beautiful so the entanglement

00:28:37.320 --> 00:28:39.600
and it you know all these words are

00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:42.519
pointing to the same thing um and I'm

00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:44.640
just trying to wrap it up with some of

00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.519
the terms that we were using before so

00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:50.080
it doesn't mean this is better it's just

00:28:50.080 --> 00:28:53.640
you know having it be the base from

00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.320
which these things all understand each

00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:59.159
other and so in in some of the previous

00:28:59.159 --> 00:29:01.440
writing and this word

00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.399
entanglement okay we talked about just

00:29:04.399 --> 00:29:08.080
give the example is that if I'm in

00:29:08.080 --> 00:29:11.159
conflict with you in interaction that's

00:29:11.159 --> 00:29:14.559
an external relationship right like

00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:17.799
you're doing you're Hamas and on

00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.159
Israel you know we're we're in there's

00:29:21.159 --> 00:29:23.120
like bombs going there's physical

00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:24.399
interaction

00:29:24.399 --> 00:29:28.080
going um then um

00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:31.200
we can look at that in terms of justice

00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:36.279
so a Justice tries to adjudicate restore

00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:39.279
repatriate

00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.039
um the external interactions the

00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:44.519
situation the external interactions but

00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.960
from a moral P standpoint anything I

00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.440
interact with is ingressing is changing

00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.159
my subjectivity so when I interact with

00:29:52.159 --> 00:29:54.480
you and I'm at at war with you I am at

00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.039
war with myself because as soon as I

00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:59.399
inter interact with another subject that

00:29:59.399 --> 00:30:03.039
person ingresses into me and now that

00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.279
subjectivity is now more fragmented it's

00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:08.399
it's this is our metaphysics of

00:30:08.399 --> 00:30:10.679
experience it's not possible it may be a

00:30:10.679 --> 00:30:13.279
tiny little thing so it's not a big deal

00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:16.279
but so from a moral standpoint that's

00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:20.240
the that's the the entanglement you're

00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.720
trying to improve they are trying to

00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:24.720
improve on both sides of the internal

00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.159
Rel internal relations

00:30:28.159 --> 00:30:30.600
more propensity toward the

00:30:30.600 --> 00:30:33.840
good and we talked about this movie

00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:39.240
where this guy's um this guy is uh

00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:41.720
mountain climbing with his with his two

00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.240
uh children and at the top is his

00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.000
younger daughter and in the middle is

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.840
his um older but still young son and

00:30:48.840 --> 00:30:52.360
he's at the bottom and they're repelling

00:30:52.360 --> 00:30:55.559
with petons and stuff and his rope

00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.200
something about it like either the Rock

00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.320
uh uh Falls away or something and he's

00:31:01.320 --> 00:31:03.159
hanging there by the rope and his young

00:31:03.159 --> 00:31:05.279
son is trying to pull him up and it's

00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.720
pulling the daughter down and the son

00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.240
looks the father looks at his son's eyes

00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.440
and he says Cut the Rope right the son

00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:15.559
has to cut the rope and let the father

00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:18.399
fall to his death because it's the only

00:31:18.399 --> 00:31:21.080
right thing to do everybody

00:31:21.080 --> 00:31:24.080
realizes that it's the good and his son

00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:25.760
is coming you know they're locking eyes

00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:28.360
they're coming to terms with it

00:31:28.360 --> 00:31:31.399
okay but then we also said let's get rid

00:31:31.399 --> 00:31:34.000
of the young child the young girl from

00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.799
now and let's just say it's the Son and

00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:39.000
the guy and the son is almost at the is

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.799
at this the the the father is saying Cut

00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:43.639
the Rope Cut the Rope but when they lock

00:31:43.639 --> 00:31:47.440
eyes he realizes his son is more of a

00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:50.639
man and he has to and he and he so he

00:31:50.639 --> 00:31:53.000
says all right I'll tell you what to do

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.120
get out your Hammer because he realizes

00:31:56.120 --> 00:31:58.760
that whatever he was thinking of doing

00:31:58.760 --> 00:32:00.960
would not it was not right for the

00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:03.760
internal relationship between those two

00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:06.679
and he he you could imagine him at first

00:32:06.679 --> 00:32:09.360
just Cut the Rope Cut the Rope and then

00:32:09.360 --> 00:32:11.600
they're looking at his eyes and he sees

00:32:11.600 --> 00:32:13.679
oh there's something different going on

00:32:13.679 --> 00:32:16.799
and if we both die that's better for him

00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.399
because he's a man now and I will hope I

00:32:19.399 --> 00:32:22.799
will forever scar him if I force him to

00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.360
cut the rope so do you see the

00:32:25.360 --> 00:32:28.519
difference like we are we the moral the

00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.480
moral equation is between the subject

00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.519
and subject encounter not whether the

00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:37.799
person literally the interaction is some

00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.639
something else so that's just a a movie

00:32:40.639 --> 00:32:46.519
fantasy but I think it's a a good it's a

00:32:46.840 --> 00:32:50.159
good it's a good way to and and if you

00:32:50.159 --> 00:32:52.120
had those experiences time slows down

00:32:52.120 --> 00:32:53.880
and you're literally like inside the

00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.519
other person's reality and and it's not

00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.200
clear

00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.080
um who's re you know the the the reality

00:33:01.080 --> 00:33:04.000
becomes a super reality and now all of a

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.639
sudden you're dealing with many more

00:33:06.639 --> 00:33:09.679
features of the constellation but they

00:33:09.679 --> 00:33:12.440
don't seem like oh that's their problem

00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:17.320
now all the situation is is entangled

00:33:17.320 --> 00:33:19.080
for both for at least you if you're

00:33:19.080 --> 00:33:21.480
having this point of moral Clarity but

00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:28.320
so um um yeah so that's that's um um you

00:33:28.320 --> 00:33:30.240
know it's a high bar but it is Mo

00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.720
morality it's not ethics ethics is a

00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:35.080
different bar we talk about ethics you

00:33:35.080 --> 00:33:37.000
use evaluative

00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.679
reasonableness um you are

00:33:39.679 --> 00:33:42.639
more have a shared context and you're

00:33:42.639 --> 00:33:45.519
you're evaluating the inter external

00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.840
interactions um and so we just say

00:33:47.840 --> 00:33:49.960
that's ethics and it's more nuanced and

00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:52.960
conversational but these kind of like

00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.600
big domains of

00:33:55.600 --> 00:33:57.720
moral uh

00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.360
action are more like what I were trying

00:34:00.360 --> 00:34:02.159
to say the moral animal is more like

00:34:02.159 --> 00:34:03.880
that and we call it an animal because

00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:07.399
this interc kind of thing doesn't seem

00:34:07.399 --> 00:34:10.919
to have a lot to do with reasoning and

00:34:10.919 --> 00:34:13.159
it's some kind of encounter like if you

00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.879
encounter the wolf and then all of a

00:34:15.879 --> 00:34:19.079
sudden you know it has this kind of

00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:24.280
primitive primordial thing to it

00:34:25.879 --> 00:34:28.679
matalina

00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.320
okay

00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.760
um again I'm not sure I'm going to be

00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:38.679
able to articulate but between

00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:40.560
Raj's

00:34:40.560 --> 00:34:43.560
question

00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:50.879
um I how in this

00:34:50.879 --> 00:34:52.839
context

00:34:52.839 --> 00:34:56.520
does because you you you name this moral

00:34:56.520 --> 00:34:57.839
animal

00:34:57.839 --> 00:35:01.599
well the the animal can be

00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:05.839
conditioned um

00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:10.040
and I don't know I just find myself in

00:35:10.040 --> 00:35:13.119
this time between

00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.920
worlds called I guess would be the word

00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.880
if I'm paying attention

00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.800
obviously to

00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.320
see

00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.320
what one might call

00:35:31.359 --> 00:35:34.480
morality as a as a

00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:38.520
learning and and how do I create the

00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:39.839
conditions of

00:35:39.839 --> 00:35:43.440
possibility for that encounter assuming

00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.400
this is an internal

00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:49.640
external encounter not just some

00:35:49.640 --> 00:35:52.800
reflection then I am in a situation in

00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:54.440
which I

00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:58.800
must um

00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:01.680
respond to a

00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:04.160
situation

00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:07.760
and right now for the most

00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.480
part it calls for rigorous

00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:15.119
hesitation and this is

00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.079
not a

00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:19.680
call to

00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:22.040
Simply

00:36:22.040 --> 00:36:24.520
um a passive

00:36:24.520 --> 00:36:29.319
doubt it's the fact that I'm 65 years

00:36:29.319 --> 00:36:32.400
old I've

00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:36.000
learned a way about being in the

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.160
world which is has changed

00:36:42.160 --> 00:36:45.040
massively in the course of my lifetime

00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:48.319
and specifically in the past 10 years

00:36:48.319 --> 00:36:52.359
you know with an acceleration that I um

00:36:52.359 --> 00:36:54.839
you know I mean talk about trim tabbing

00:36:54.839 --> 00:36:57.119
I don't know where my trim tab is is in

00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.640
this ocean

00:36:59.640 --> 00:37:02.640
okay

00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.520
um

00:37:04.520 --> 00:37:07.720
and when I

00:37:07.720 --> 00:37:09.520
feel the

00:37:09.520 --> 00:37:11.440
warmest with

00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.119
myself let's now talk about the soft

00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:18.040
animal loving what it loves you

00:37:18.040 --> 00:37:20.400
know

00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:25.319
um has invariably been when I've been

00:37:25.319 --> 00:37:28.359
able to somehow create the conditions of

00:37:28.359 --> 00:37:32.000
possibility for me to learn

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.720
something from that

00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:36.560
situation

00:37:36.560 --> 00:37:41.640
that um maybe because I pose my response

00:37:41.640 --> 00:37:45.720
as a question rather than a

00:37:45.720 --> 00:37:48.240
proposition so maybe I'm talking more

00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:51.240
about the dispositional state around

00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:54.119
moral

00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:57.440
animal okay that's a bit bit of a segue

00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.880
it's not a perfect segue but into our

00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:03.800
prompt um and and um and I wrote

00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:05.280
something down that I would have said

00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.520
but I'm hoping that it arises uh

00:38:08.520 --> 00:38:10.960
naturally in in some of the

00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:13.760
conversations um because you're you're

00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.200
you're moving right toward uh what we're

00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:19.319
trying to elicit in the next prom so

00:38:19.319 --> 00:38:22.000
let's let's let's go ahead and do the

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:27.720
prompt for uh fif uh 50 minutes It'll be

00:38:27.720 --> 00:38:31.440
uh so we'll come back at

00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.000
1:30 and um let me do this first and

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:38.560
then give you the prompt

00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:41.160
because so you have three to four

00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:43.359
participants uh because they're usually

00:38:43.359 --> 00:38:45.680
pretty big conversations some people can

00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:49.800
listen and get some ideas fonnie yeah

00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.280
sorry yes you're doing your calculation

00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.640
I should let you know I have to peel off

00:38:55.640 --> 00:38:57.160
at

00:38:57.160 --> 00:39:00.480
uh at the top of the hour so probably

00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:04.079
okay maybe not include me no I'll put

00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:05.880
I'll put a fourth person in your room

00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:07.240
and then everyone I think will'll have

00:39:07.240 --> 00:39:11.440
three people okay do you not yes so you

00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:14.480
are three things let's see yeah I'll

00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:15.920
have to peel off a little bit at the

00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:18.960
bottom of the hour before the 50 is long

00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:23.640
okay um then all right so everyone will

00:39:23.640 --> 00:39:27.200
have three until and then when you leave

00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:30.599
your room will have two but that's okay

00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.640
um and let me do this I'll make it 45

00:39:34.640 --> 00:39:39.079
minutes uh give you a five minute uh

00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:42.280
um leeway there okay so here's the

00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.359
prompt think of a

00:39:45.359 --> 00:39:49.400
story when you witnessed when you or

00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.040
someone you

00:39:52.040 --> 00:39:55.400
witnessed stood up against the

00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:58.400
group

00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:02.760
toward what you thought was the right

00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:06.800
thing and the group was going the wrong

00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:12.160
way now if you've never witnessed this

00:40:12.160 --> 00:40:15.520
then think of a story when you feel like

00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:20.720
you should have stood up against the

00:40:22.839 --> 00:40:26.599
group because the group was going was

00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.079
was going in the wrong

00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:34.200
direction now you want to understand

00:40:34.200 --> 00:40:37.760
both what

00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:43.079
that maybe rigorous hesitation felt like

00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:44.640
what's challenging what's going through

00:40:44.640 --> 00:40:47.079
your mind or if you happen to have stood

00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.640
up in front of a group uh what did it

00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:53.200
feel like and what did it feel like

00:40:53.200 --> 00:40:54.880
afterwards

00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:58.440
and all that that

00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:03.280
experiential quality of it

00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:06.920
um Bonnie can you define

00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:10.720
group um three or more

00:41:10.720 --> 00:41:13.040
people okay thank uh because if it's a

00:41:13.040 --> 00:41:15.160
three people only two people are against

00:41:15.160 --> 00:41:20.520
you I do have an example of that um but

00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:23.760
um yeah three is the the least because

00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.920
if it's just you and another person it

00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.680
doesn't have that same kind of feeling

00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:32.520
so um

00:41:32.520 --> 00:41:35.599
yeah um but then something very very

00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.520
large like you're at a big a big rally

00:41:38.520 --> 00:41:40.240
and there's 10,000 of you on this side

00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:42.520
of the street and 5,000 you on that side

00:41:42.520 --> 00:41:44.040
streight that's probably not a great

00:41:44.040 --> 00:41:46.079
story either so some something where

00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.000
there's

00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.640
interpersonal pressure and tension um to

00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:54.240
both to do the right thing and to not do

00:41:54.240 --> 00:41:56.760
the right thing something in that in in

00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:59.000
that

00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:04.599
scenario okay enjoy your company and

00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:07.119
enjoy your

00:42:17.160 --> 00:42:19.480
conversation

00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.880
Bonnie

00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:25.160
oh Bonnie can you hear

00:42:25.160 --> 00:42:27.839
me

00:42:27.839 --> 00:42:30.720
ah just wanted to say hi to you I

00:42:30.720 --> 00:42:32.920
haven't haven't talked to you in a while

00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:34.240
hi you look good

00:42:34.240 --> 00:42:37.480
though well I'm I'm happy to be here I'm

00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:41.240
happy to be in the conversation the

00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.960
inquiry yes yes we've been doing some

00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:47.920
things

00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:51.760
here yes yeah I I'm feeling my own sense

00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:55.000
of loss of not being as connected as I

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:56.800
want to be yeah

00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:57.920
well

00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:03.079
hopefully I'll have the book out next

00:43:04.040 --> 00:43:05.640
[Music]

00:43:05.640 --> 00:43:08.640
year

00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.880
yeah I already have a

00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:17.240
publisher that's I a publisher a no

00:43:17.240 --> 00:43:23.480
book very good okay here we

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.040
are how did it go this one was tougher a

00:43:27.040 --> 00:43:30.480
little tougher right is it a little

00:43:38.520 --> 00:43:41.400
tougher did anyone have a good story to

00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:43.720
work

00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:58.079
with

00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:11.359
no for me I mean the stories were good

00:44:11.359 --> 00:44:14.119
stories but for me more than the stories

00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.559
was I realized that I had never had this

00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.280
conversation

00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.079
before I'd never been asked to I've

00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:24.359
never come up with it on my own that's

00:44:24.359 --> 00:44:28.000
number one that

00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:32.559
guess in a certain way it seems simple

00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:35.240
and in another way it seems incredibly

00:44:35.240 --> 00:44:38.000
complex uh and both available and also

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.040
really

00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:42.920
distant like the language to

00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:45.280
access not just the narrative or not

00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:46.880
just the story but the language the

00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:51.359
access the kind of the The Fallout of

00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.359
it the conversation was originally and

00:44:54.359 --> 00:44:56.480
how it relates to

00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.440
kind of an impression of morality or we

00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:01.119
talked a lot

00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:04.319
about having Having the courage kind of

00:45:04.319 --> 00:45:06.440
natural spontaneous courage

00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:09.119
online to be able to interrupt or to

00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:11.680
shift

00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.800
something the three stories we had were

00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:18.800
actually um about interrupting

00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:22.480
violence and what it took to do

00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:24.680
that but again more than the stories it

00:45:24.680 --> 00:45:26.400
was like

00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.319
did I didn't even know how to talk about

00:45:28.319 --> 00:45:31.520
this but she she really pushed so it

00:45:31.520 --> 00:45:32.440
felt

00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:35.240
really really good really

00:45:35.240 --> 00:45:38.319
fruitful just be present with that with

00:45:38.319 --> 00:45:41.440
the inquiry and be present with the

00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:44.920
prompt yeah and they decided yeah now

00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:46.720
that you're saying that I mean

00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:49.359
reflecting it back

00:45:49.359 --> 00:45:52.440
is you you know thinking of how we are

00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:53.760
taught

00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.839
morality um when we're kids in some

00:45:56.839 --> 00:45:59.800
version or another um don't do that it's

00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:04.079
bad it's wrong to do in and then

00:46:05.040 --> 00:46:08.079
some would taught morality through TV a

00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:11.079
lot watching watching TV and stuff but

00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:13.319
this notion of the moral animal is we're

00:46:13.319 --> 00:46:15.480
trying to teach morality through the

00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.040
felt sense of these situations right

00:46:19.040 --> 00:46:24.800
that because the the explicated

00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.079
rules

00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:29.960
don't work you know they don't work

00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:31.839
across all situations and then you don't

00:46:31.839 --> 00:46:34.000
know which rule to pick up and then you

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.960
don't know um and and you know as Nora

00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:40.880
Bateson said you know transcontextual

00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:45.200
data or warm data is picked up by your

00:46:45.200 --> 00:46:50.920
body so um um yeah so this notion

00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:54.319
of taking time even with very young

00:46:54.319 --> 00:46:57.800
people to talk about

00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:03.160
ask these questions you know but to

00:47:03.160 --> 00:47:07.000
anticipate when you're in these

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:10.000
situations

00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.760
um I don't know if this is

00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.640
anticipating that what's coming next but

00:47:20.640 --> 00:47:22.319
since you mentioned Nora one of the

00:47:22.319 --> 00:47:24.720
things I was thinking about was double

00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:27.720
binds

00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:32.359
that so much that characterizes a moral

00:47:32.359 --> 00:47:34.160
dilemma is to

00:47:34.160 --> 00:47:36.319
be in a

00:47:36.319 --> 00:47:38.520
situation where you're damned if you do

00:47:38.520 --> 00:47:41.200
you're damned if you don't

00:47:41.200 --> 00:47:45.720
and that this

00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:51.599
um um um curiosity and the noticing I

00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:55.040
was shared in the group that we had a

00:47:55.040 --> 00:47:57.400
particularly melancholic session and at

00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:01.960
the end you basically said you know

00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:04.920
notice just really

00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.400
noticed um with this kind of I say

00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:12.720
Fierce curiosity because it kind of has

00:48:12.720 --> 00:48:16.839
an edge to it that has to take

00:48:16.839 --> 00:48:22.640
you out of some as aneska was saying

00:48:22.640 --> 00:48:24.640
this this

00:48:24.640 --> 00:48:29.240
comfortable place which might be very

00:48:29.240 --> 00:48:31.480
morally acceptable but it's still

00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:34.319
comfortable it

00:48:34.520 --> 00:48:40.079
doesn't uh yeah that's that courage I

00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:43.040
think and giving yourself permission not

00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:46.079
to know I think that's probably one of

00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.520
the most important things

00:48:48.520 --> 00:48:53.920
for um me at least in how I'm moving

00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:59.400
through this s of last chapter um is

00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.920
permission not to know and and that to

00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:05.200
me is taking a

00:49:05.200 --> 00:49:09.559
stand is to say I don't

00:49:23.319 --> 00:49:26.440
know who's going Katie K Katie and then

00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:27.920
David

00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:30.440
okay so one of the interesting things

00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.760
that came up in our group for me was

00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.559
when like an ought or when an ought and

00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:38.480
is gets

00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.200
conflated

00:49:40.200 --> 00:49:46.119
and like by way of imbuing authority as

00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:48.760
as broadcasting or

00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:51.160
dictating when when maybe when that

00:49:51.160 --> 00:49:52.480
Authority is an

00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.240
isness um and then how that ingresses

00:49:55.240 --> 00:49:56.440
into

00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.520
into uh into us and the tricky territory

00:49:59.520 --> 00:50:03.680
that is like to to disentangle and um

00:50:03.680 --> 00:50:05.559
kind of reclaim

00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:08.520
agency trust and

00:50:08.520 --> 00:50:10.480
self um

00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.680
and that the body is picking up these

00:50:13.680 --> 00:50:16.280
transcontextual

00:50:19.240 --> 00:50:22.160
messages yeah so a lot of times the

00:50:22.160 --> 00:50:24.680
context in which the actions are

00:50:24.680 --> 00:50:26.079
happening

00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:29.160
are set by an authority so this this is

00:50:29.160 --> 00:50:31.400
typical dilemma in

00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:34.440
organizations um you you're in the

00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:37.960
organization and everybody's going

00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:41.319
to do something like fire someone who is

00:50:41.319 --> 00:50:42.160
a

00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:43.799
scapegoat

00:50:43.799 --> 00:50:48.280
and inside the context of that

00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:50.580
organization this Mak

00:50:50.580 --> 00:50:52.200
[Music]

00:50:52.200 --> 00:50:54.839
sense but part of you lives outside of

00:50:54.839 --> 00:50:58.640
that context and and realizes that that

00:50:58.640 --> 00:51:02.960
the the value is not a value in all uh

00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.000
context right so yes maybe someone you

00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:10.760
know you can see anyways so um this is

00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:15.400
where it gets the the implicit rules are

00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:18.119
in the established context by the

00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:22.480
authorities a lot of times and

00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.680
um so that's when people will say well

00:51:25.680 --> 00:51:29.000
that is the way it is

00:51:29.040 --> 00:51:35.400
here but that's just you know it's

00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:40.520
like it's just made up it's just made up

00:51:40.520 --> 00:51:44.599
context it's not it could be it could be

00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:47.839
otherwise um and that doesn't make it

00:51:47.839 --> 00:51:49.760
okay doesn't make it

00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:51.640
okay

00:51:51.640 --> 00:51:54.839
um so that's where stopping at context

00:51:54.839 --> 00:51:58.160
is not it's not large

00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:02.200
enough um but of

00:52:02.200 --> 00:52:05.079
course we do

00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:08.079
often

00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:11.119
yeah

00:52:13.720 --> 00:52:18.040
David so I got triggered by the word not

00:52:18.040 --> 00:52:21.720
triggered but um double bind I mean that

00:52:21.720 --> 00:52:24.920
that's a that's that's a situation that

00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:29.520
that um freezes Us in place and so to me

00:52:29.520 --> 00:52:31.079
that's a sign of okay if there's a

00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:34.040
double bind going on there's some kind

00:52:34.040 --> 00:52:38.480
of logic structure or implicit rules

00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.640
that is freezing the situation and and

00:52:41.640 --> 00:52:44.760
it's okay and important to start with

00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:48.079
this doesn't make sense or I'm confused

00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:50.640
you know we think we have to come up

00:52:50.640 --> 00:52:53.040
with something better or an answer but

00:52:53.040 --> 00:52:56.040
even just naming you know know that this

00:52:56.040 --> 00:53:00.240
isn't un this is untenable right here um

00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:01.240
feels

00:53:01.240 --> 00:53:05.760
like how to how to begin and finding our

00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.559
voice because so much of what is in

00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:14.720
place has been in place as from an outer

00:53:14.720 --> 00:53:18.319
Authority or maybe just from assumptions

00:53:18.319 --> 00:53:20.000
that we we have running that we don't

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.720
even know we have

00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:27.160
running

00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:47.480
um I want to share this

00:53:49.240 --> 00:53:52.359
is this is going a little bit further

00:53:52.359 --> 00:53:55.799
into our breakout and I think where

00:53:55.799 --> 00:53:57.799
we'll be in uh

00:53:57.799 --> 00:54:01.000
24 so I just think it's a simple

00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:04.240
wonderful point to put in the middle

00:54:04.240 --> 00:54:07.880
here right now and that was uh and it

00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:10.040
has to do with like what Ry was talking

00:54:10.040 --> 00:54:13.640
about we touched on this courage to act

00:54:13.640 --> 00:54:16.079
in the face of violence it wasn't really

00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.040
violence but it had to do with courage

00:54:19.040 --> 00:54:20.760
and

00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:25.799
um it was stated that it takes balls to

00:54:25.799 --> 00:54:29.839
act in the face of that

00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:35.359
situation and

00:54:35.359 --> 00:54:41.160
then it was said it takes ovaries to act

00:54:41.160 --> 00:54:43.960
in that kind of

00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:47.359
situation might

00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:54.079
be an approach that opens us

00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:57.079
to

00:54:58.799 --> 00:55:02.480
g capital G

00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:07.119
good shifting language that's so subtly

00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:08.799
part of our

00:55:08.799 --> 00:55:12.880
conditioning balls to

00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:24.000
act yes I think it takes you you

00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:28.160
know it takes energy to act you need to

00:55:28.160 --> 00:55:29.920
be aroused and this is what we were

00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:32.319
talking about last time you need to will

00:55:32.319 --> 00:55:33.680
you need to be able

00:55:33.680 --> 00:55:39.000
to muster up some will and that can come

00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.599
in different our language can gender

00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:45.760
that will um I always like to talk about

00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:49.559
the polar bear who's who's got a

00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:53.240
baby is it a is it a masculine energy or

00:55:53.240 --> 00:55:55.400
feminine energy when she turns turn on

00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:58.880
you and eats you like it's it doesn't

00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:06.079
it's it's just this intense will um that

00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:09.920
um is required so courage you have to

00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:12.599
must courage but also um I mean they're

00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:17.359
very close together courage and and will

00:56:19.319 --> 00:56:23.920
um maybe I'm not being clear Bonnie but

00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:26.920
uh

00:56:30.870 --> 00:56:33.160
[Music]

00:56:33.160 --> 00:56:37.920
knowing that that mother polar bear has

00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:42.720
strength and courage

00:56:42.720 --> 00:56:47.240
that I as a father polar bear am not

00:56:47.240 --> 00:56:50.039
readily in touch with it's latent inside

00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.430
of me so seeing it come

00:56:52.430 --> 00:56:53.599
[Music]

00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:58.520
from the ovaries to act inspires

00:56:58.520 --> 00:57:03.799
me here now

00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:09.440
today and I want to see language shift

00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:12.559
to include you

00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:20.559
women in a potent way the way I feel you

00:57:23.559 --> 00:57:25.319
now yeah

00:57:25.319 --> 00:57:28.200
I mean I get it and now my mind wants to

00:57:28.200 --> 00:57:30.039
go somewhere which is this is

00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:32.599
parenthetical but but it's very it'll be

00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:34.760
it's coming you're right this is part of

00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:38.480
the lyric culture um the reason why I

00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:41.200
use the polar bear is because they don't

00:57:41.200 --> 00:57:42.720
stay with their

00:57:42.720 --> 00:57:44.680
partners and then there are many

00:57:44.680 --> 00:57:46.720
pro-social animals where there's a lot

00:57:46.720 --> 00:57:47.920
of sexual

00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:51.240
dimorphism and hence we get the balls to

00:57:51.240 --> 00:57:55.839
act um and and so you would have uh more

00:57:55.839 --> 00:58:01.240
more differentiated roles um so

00:58:01.240 --> 00:58:04.880
um but our language should not be

00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.680
exclusive and nor should our mental

00:58:07.680 --> 00:58:11.920
models think that

00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:13.960
um that

00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:20.799
gender um or even sex um uh limits the

00:58:20.799 --> 00:58:23.640
the energy to act and to act

00:58:23.640 --> 00:58:25.960
courageously and to act

00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:30.920
fiercely um because um a lot of women

00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:33.240
act

00:58:33.520 --> 00:58:36.119
fiercely Sometimes women act fiercly and

00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:38.640
they have have no courage at all I mean

00:58:38.640 --> 00:58:41.839
this is a is is you you wouldn't say I

00:58:41.839 --> 00:58:44.799
mustered the courage to act uh it's

00:58:44.799 --> 00:58:46.799
often the case that you're scared as

00:58:46.799 --> 00:58:49.280
 and you and the fierceness comes

00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:52.440
through you and um then you do the right

00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:54.319
thing and then you cry about it for

00:58:54.319 --> 00:58:56.000
three days because you didn't actually

00:58:56.000 --> 00:58:57.280
get enough

00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:02.559
courage uh to to to tide you

00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:05.200
over um so we're not interest we're

00:59:05.200 --> 00:59:07.319
interested in the behavior right we're

00:59:07.319 --> 00:59:12.240
interested in um these these these

00:59:12.240 --> 00:59:14.680
stories of women who just see a baby

00:59:14.680 --> 00:59:17.599
under a car and they pick up like a car

00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:20.640
they just get so much strength and they

00:59:20.640 --> 00:59:22.799
don't have time to muster courage they

00:59:22.799 --> 00:59:25.760
just it's just yeah

00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:27.640
um anyways these are all interesting

00:59:27.640 --> 00:59:29.319
questions you know in terms of getting

00:59:29.319 --> 00:59:32.680
to the bodily experience of this this

00:59:32.680 --> 00:59:35.559
complex uh Human Condition all the

00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:38.440
complexities of

00:59:46.119 --> 00:59:49.119
it yeah

00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.400
um I had two memories um and I'm just

00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:55.720
realizing both for out in

00:59:55.720 --> 01:00:00.960
public one was with a relative and

01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:07.000
that's when that Fierce like just

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:09.960
instantaneous courage to do something

01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:12.559
that you know if I thought about it um

01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:14.400
probably would have never

01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:16.839
happened um and

01:00:16.839 --> 01:00:19.200
I I do love the

01:00:19.200 --> 01:00:22.799
question to be able to get in touch with

01:00:22.799 --> 01:00:25.799
that bodily sensation and that that

01:00:25.799 --> 01:00:30.039
power I mean it was it was you know I

01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:32.039
think at that point in my life it might

01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:34.400
have been the first time I really felt

01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:35.760
that coming

01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:39.960
through um and it and it was you know

01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:43.520
just knocked me out like I loved it I

01:00:43.520 --> 01:00:46.319
loved knowing that I had

01:00:46.319 --> 01:00:47.920
that

01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:52.240
capability um and then the second was

01:00:52.240 --> 01:00:54.799
sort of the the opposite where there was

01:00:54.799 --> 01:00:57.480
that space of trying to muster the

01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:00.200
courage but all the stuff came

01:01:00.200 --> 01:01:02.640
in

01:01:02.640 --> 01:01:06.760
um and I wasn't in so we were talking

01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:08.640
about proximity

01:01:08.640 --> 01:01:11.720
and like that's where it felt very

01:01:11.720 --> 01:01:14.440
critical these Were Strangers but I was

01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:17.079
out in public and I was witnessing

01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:19.119
something that I knew was wrong and I

01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:23.559
really wanted to stop it um but I

01:01:23.559 --> 01:01:25.079
couldn't

01:01:25.079 --> 01:01:27.359
you know

01:01:27.359 --> 01:01:29.839
and grapp you know I'm just still

01:01:29.839 --> 01:01:32.079
grappling with that now that it's sort

01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:36.280
of fresh again like what is it you know

01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:39.200
there seems to be this that love I mean

01:01:39.200 --> 01:01:42.640
I I would love the stranger I love this

01:01:42.640 --> 01:01:43.880
relative of

01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:48.480
mine um differently but there is love

01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.960
because I cared about the stranger

01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:53.200
wanted to do

01:01:53.200 --> 01:01:55.960
something but just you know I just

01:01:55.960 --> 01:02:00.480
wasn't capable of doing it in that

01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:04.200
moment so that that's a

01:02:04.200 --> 01:02:07.079
tough It's good to notice it it's just

01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:08.920
it's hard I don't know what to do with

01:02:08.920 --> 01:02:11.279
it

01:02:23.359 --> 01:02:26.359
really

01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:34.520
hi everyone I'm I'm driving but it looks

01:02:34.520 --> 01:02:36.559
straight ahead so I I think I think I'll

01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:43.160
be good um yeah what Susan just said and

01:02:43.160 --> 01:02:46.520
um another conversation in our group

01:02:46.520 --> 01:02:48.319
came up with something similar

01:02:48.319 --> 01:02:51.799
like the the threshold of like you know

01:02:51.799 --> 01:02:54.839
acting or not acting and I kind of my

01:02:54.839 --> 01:02:57.079
story was kind of similar where it was

01:02:57.079 --> 01:03:00.000
like you know I was a teenager and I was

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:02.839
like out you know like with my friends

01:03:02.839 --> 01:03:04.880
then they we'd like make Mischief right

01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:06.640
or like the first time you're like

01:03:06.640 --> 01:03:09.119
offered a beer or like a joint or like

01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:10.920
to like throw a snowball at a car or do

01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:15.000
something wrong or shoplift

01:03:15.319 --> 01:03:17.720
and two different fears almost where

01:03:17.720 --> 01:03:20.640
it's like okay fear of like parents and

01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:23.520
authority of like not wanting to get in

01:03:23.520 --> 01:03:26.039
trouble and not wanting to disobey but

01:03:26.039 --> 01:03:27.200
there's also like the fear of like not

01:03:27.200 --> 01:03:28.319
fitting with your

01:03:28.319 --> 01:03:32.119
peers um so it's like you could and you

01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:34.000
can imagine both situations like either

01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:36.640
saying hey guys this isn't right like we

01:03:36.640 --> 01:03:38.039
shouldn't be doing this this is wrong

01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:39.039
that takes courage because you're

01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:41.160
standing up against a group but then

01:03:41.160 --> 01:03:43.319
also to go along with a group like takes

01:03:43.319 --> 01:03:45.440
a bit of Courage because you're like

01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:47.319
you're going into the unknown and you're

01:03:47.319 --> 01:03:50.440
like transgressing what authorities and

01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:52.599
parents tell you like when you have that

01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:55.240
beer when you do something wrong WR so

01:03:55.240 --> 01:03:57.920
it's like I think yeah that that's the

01:03:57.920 --> 01:03:59.880
example that's coming up for me with

01:03:59.880 --> 01:04:02.160
like the the in like incommensurable

01:04:02.160 --> 01:04:05.400
Goods of like who or what are you afraid

01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:09.279
of where is the courage going and like

01:04:09.279 --> 01:04:10.640
it feels like you know there's a there's

01:04:10.640 --> 01:04:12.720
a a threshold for

01:04:12.720 --> 01:04:15.200
like it's almost like a confidence of

01:04:15.200 --> 01:04:17.599
like how much do you believe in like

01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:19.440
like let's say you're in a situation

01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:21.200
like oh guys this is wrong we should

01:04:21.200 --> 01:04:23.720
stop doing this you have to have the the

01:04:23.720 --> 01:04:26.200
amount of

01:04:26.200 --> 01:04:29.079
internal moral Authority for you to

01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:33.119
like to like okay what's to move the the

01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:36.039
ship or whatever it's called there to

01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:37.319
get it to move a different direction but

01:04:37.319 --> 01:04:39.119
you have to have the internal like

01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:41.079
belief in your own the know moral

01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:43.079
Authority whether it's like trust in

01:04:43.079 --> 01:04:44.640
author the authority and what they tell

01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:49.799
you versus like wanting to fit in and

01:04:49.799 --> 01:04:52.920
maybe see what happens

01:04:53.160 --> 01:04:55.760
so

01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:59.160
yeah it reminds me of a story I haven't

01:04:59.160 --> 01:05:00.440
thought of this in a long time when I

01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:03.799
was in in grade

01:05:03.799 --> 01:05:06.079
school my sister and her friends must

01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:08.079
have been in like eighth grade and I

01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:09.599
must have been in sixth

01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:13.240
grade um we used to count the money for

01:05:13.240 --> 01:05:15.520
the church on Sundays and you know you'd

01:05:15.520 --> 01:05:17.599
package up all the coins into those

01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:20.799
things and put the and they would steal

01:05:20.799 --> 01:05:22.640
the money they had a little thing and

01:05:22.640 --> 01:05:24.400
they'd go to the pharmacy where you can

01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:28.000
get ice creams and stuff like that and

01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.240
it was like

01:05:31.240 --> 01:05:34.520
um negotiating both those codes at the

01:05:34.520 --> 01:05:37.640
same time I basically quit and then I

01:05:37.640 --> 01:05:39.119
you know the church is like what you

01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:41.520
know and my mom was mad at me because I

01:05:41.520 --> 01:05:44.319
quit and but I didn't

01:05:44.319 --> 01:05:48.760
tell I just I just didn't tell on them

01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:51.200
and and when I was tell you know and we

01:05:51.200 --> 01:05:54.880
had kind of have like an argument and um

01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:56.520
they're like if you tell and this and

01:05:56.520 --> 01:06:00.160
that and and I didn't tell but it

01:06:00.160 --> 01:06:03.480
created so much disharmony that event

01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:05.680
that soon after I quit everybody

01:06:05.680 --> 01:06:11.680
quit like um but I didn't tell and so

01:06:11.680 --> 01:06:14.680
so that was like the middle way you know

01:06:14.680 --> 01:06:16.640
because I I thought it was wrong to tell

01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:18.839
at the same time you know there there's

01:06:18.839 --> 01:06:21.119
something else there's bunch of things

01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:26.000
going on uh

01:06:33.540 --> 01:06:38.739
[Music]

01:06:46.839 --> 01:06:49.839
yeah

01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:54.720
cev

01:06:54.720 --> 01:06:58.319
yeah a lot of this came up in our

01:06:58.319 --> 01:07:01.599
breakout um that it's just sort of

01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:05.119
echoing this idea of the you know the

01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:07.119
amount of energy that was

01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:11.640
required to to make the statement of

01:07:11.640 --> 01:07:14.359
going

01:07:14.359 --> 01:07:16.559
against the the

01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:19.760
social you know structure you know that

01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:21.520
you were that there was something of a

01:07:21.520 --> 01:07:23.000
there was something of a definitely of a

01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.480
risk uh was a sacrifice to be made and

01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:31.160
that this required uh um that the energy

01:07:31.160 --> 01:07:33.559
that that the energy was was kind of

01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:34.599
going

01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:39.599
towards being excluded like it was you

01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:41.039
and and all and there was a choice of

01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:42.920
self-exclusion if that's necessary then

01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:46.000
that's the way it is you know there

01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:50.160
was and that this this involved some

01:07:50.160 --> 01:07:55.160
kind of a revelation of your

01:07:55.160 --> 01:07:58.799
in you know of your status inside that

01:07:58.799 --> 01:08:02.160
group like you might have it wasn't

01:08:02.160 --> 01:08:04.000
merely a loss of status it was like you

01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:06.960
were no longer

01:08:07.119 --> 01:08:09.400
status you were no longer included in

01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:11.359
the group to be part of any status

01:08:11.359 --> 01:08:13.720
structure you were an Untouchable you're

01:08:13.720 --> 01:08:16.880
outside of

01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:19.799
the and make and that that was at risk

01:08:19.799 --> 01:08:21.839
and that was what was being you know

01:08:21.839 --> 01:08:25.159
like you're that

01:08:25.159 --> 01:08:28.440
like almost a maybe a a tearing from

01:08:28.440 --> 01:08:30.040
family or something like that there was

01:08:30.040 --> 01:08:32.400
that kind

01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:38.520
of those

01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:47.960
Stakes that feels so intense K what you

01:08:47.960 --> 01:08:50.359
just said that that the the the

01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:54.159
structure the the cultural structure is

01:08:54.159 --> 01:08:55.960
that in order to

01:08:55.960 --> 01:08:59.640
belong you don't stand on your own you

01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:01.560
don't listen to

01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:06.080
yourself and uh that's a that's a big

01:09:06.080 --> 01:09:10.239
sacrifice I wonder how many structures

01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:14.880
ask us to do that so this is a big a big

01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:19.120
point a big Insight um Bob Keegan calls

01:09:19.120 --> 01:09:21.239
it you know moving from the socialized

01:09:21.239 --> 01:09:26.560
self um to I forget what the next one is

01:09:26.560 --> 01:09:32.239
um um the what self self offering um

01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:35.000
self- listening it should actually maybe

01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:42.000
even be better um and uh um it is the

01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:43.880
one of the major thresholds for

01:09:43.880 --> 01:09:47.799
individuation right so um and so first

01:09:47.799 --> 01:09:50.319
we have this this thing with our parents

01:09:50.319 --> 01:09:53.080
but then we have the pseudo parents like

01:09:53.080 --> 01:09:55.280
the authority of at work and this these

01:09:55.280 --> 01:10:02.840
codes these these group codes um and

01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:06.120
um uh very I don't know what the

01:10:06.120 --> 01:10:09.159
statistics are but very very few people

01:10:09.159 --> 01:10:11.199
um

01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:14.280
um according to ra you know the these

01:10:14.280 --> 01:10:16.760
instruments uh very small percentage of

01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:19.880
people um are outside of the social

01:10:19.880 --> 01:10:23.080
socialized self and this is extremely

01:10:23.080 --> 01:10:27.000
big thing to to understand because it

01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:29.920
gets a little uh when if you don't

01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:31.679
understand it well then you'll make a

01:10:31.679 --> 01:10:33.760
big mistake and that

01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:39.560
is if I grow up it's let's say in

01:10:39.560 --> 01:10:41.159
a

01:10:41.159 --> 01:10:45.960
premodern household like a

01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:48.679
fundamentalist Orthodox Jewish or a

01:10:48.679 --> 01:10:51.360
fundamentalist cath you know

01:10:51.360 --> 01:10:56.000
whatever and I become a business this

01:10:56.480 --> 01:10:59.360
person I have to

01:10:59.360 --> 01:11:01.480
exercise I have to get out of the

01:11:01.480 --> 01:11:04.719
socialized self to become a business

01:11:04.719 --> 01:11:07.840
person whereas in most cases you see a

01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:10.159
bunch of people they are business people

01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:13.719
that doesn't mean there any from this

01:11:13.719 --> 01:11:15.640
perspective beyond the socialized self

01:11:15.640 --> 01:11:17.320
because this is socialized to being a

01:11:17.320 --> 01:11:19.800
business person so it's not the

01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:23.360
values that you enact and behave that

01:11:23.360 --> 01:11:24.239
are

01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:27.880
important you go to Scandinavia and you

01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:29.640
talk to really young people you would

01:11:29.640 --> 01:11:31.239
think they were enlightened because they

01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:33.120
talk about sustainability and blah blah

01:11:33.120 --> 01:11:34.480
blah blah blah blah but they're

01:11:34.480 --> 01:11:37.159
completely socialized to that and then

01:11:37.159 --> 01:11:38.920
when you ask them questions you you get

01:11:38.920 --> 01:11:40.360
confused because like and then you

01:11:40.360 --> 01:11:41.840
realize they don't really understand

01:11:41.840 --> 01:11:43.360
what they're talking about they're been

01:11:43.360 --> 01:11:45.480
they're socialized to certain

01:11:45.480 --> 01:11:47.920
values this is why values are not

01:11:47.920 --> 01:11:51.520
helpful because they're

01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:54.920
incommensurable um and if you're only if

01:11:54.920 --> 01:11:58.239
you're socialized to a nice Progressive

01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:02.000
woke thing you've made no progress

01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:03.719
because you're just socialized and when

01:12:03.719 --> 01:12:05.280
you're in a different context you'll

01:12:05.280 --> 01:12:08.199
just use your food fight for your values

01:12:08.199 --> 01:12:10.440
against somebody else's

01:12:10.440 --> 01:12:17.320
values so um so uh when my friend did

01:12:17.320 --> 01:12:22.639
this big research project in uh um uh

01:12:22.639 --> 01:12:24.080
Sweden

01:12:24.080 --> 01:12:27.080
and they were taking in a bunch of ref

01:12:27.080 --> 01:12:29.719
Syrian refugees and the state had made

01:12:29.719 --> 01:12:33.360
all these uh Social Services to on board

01:12:33.360 --> 01:12:36.520
them and it was a failure because you

01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:39.120
had Swedish people who were

01:12:39.120 --> 01:12:42.400
socialized trying to talk to Muslim

01:12:42.400 --> 01:12:45.600
women and saying and and getting into

01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:49.199
fights like because not because the

01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:52.440
Swedish people had a higher level of

01:12:52.440 --> 01:12:54.400
development

01:12:54.400 --> 01:12:56.040
you could say they had more advanced

01:12:56.040 --> 01:12:59.239
values if you want to use that story but

01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:02.120
they couldn't get anywhere because they

01:13:02.120 --> 01:13:03.960
had both had socialized

01:13:03.960 --> 01:13:08.360
minds and a few very few people had the

01:13:08.360 --> 01:13:11.520
ability to say okay you're coming into

01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:13.719
my country you've been socialized to

01:13:13.719 --> 01:13:16.320
these things this is how the way we do

01:13:16.320 --> 01:13:18.320
things now and blah blah blah without

01:13:18.320 --> 01:13:21.120
having this sense of tension and trying

01:13:21.120 --> 01:13:23.080
to convince them that they need to have

01:13:23.080 --> 01:13:25.920
certain values and that person was could

01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:29.480
contextualize both their values and that

01:13:29.480 --> 01:13:31.159
you know people were just doing what

01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:34.679
what they had to do so very very few

01:13:34.679 --> 01:13:39.679
people um get out of the socialized self

01:13:39.679 --> 01:13:43.040
um and these comments that we're making

01:13:43.040 --> 01:13:46.199
are reasons why it's hard because the

01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:47.760
pain it's

01:13:47.760 --> 01:13:51.000
painful um we lose our friends it

01:13:51.000 --> 01:13:53.520
threatens our identity we don't think

01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:56.679
will belong our our idea of belonging

01:13:56.679 --> 01:14:01.480
needs has to change um and uh we talked

01:14:01.480 --> 01:14:05.400
about this uh in the culture that

01:14:05.400 --> 01:14:07.520
culture does two things you have a

01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:10.199
shared identity and you and culture

01:14:10.199 --> 01:14:14.639
fulfills belonging needs so those two

01:14:14.639 --> 01:14:17.560
things have to the moral animal has to

01:14:17.560 --> 01:14:20.520
be equipped to do those two things

01:14:20.520 --> 01:14:22.280
Beyond

01:14:22.280 --> 01:14:25.280
culture

01:14:28.639 --> 01:14:33.600
it's not inside a cultural

01:14:33.600 --> 01:14:37.159
lineage this is my argument with the

01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:41.840
GNE it's got to be Beyond

01:14:43.159 --> 01:14:46.880
culture so there then where are you then

01:14:46.880 --> 01:14:49.199
where are you operating

01:14:49.199 --> 01:14:51.360
from that's why it's called the moral

01:14:51.360 --> 01:14:53.960
animal because the moral animal

01:14:53.960 --> 01:14:55.760
has capacities to

01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:58.560
thrive without culture now this is a

01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:00.360
metaphor because they have their own

01:15:00.360 --> 01:15:03.080
pro-social norms and stuff like that so

01:15:03.080 --> 01:15:04.600
it's more of an you know it's an

01:15:04.600 --> 01:15:08.000
aspirational kind of

01:15:17.719 --> 01:15:22.199
metaphor and this is

01:15:22.199 --> 01:15:23.800
um

01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:26.159
what the one I did the one I just did or

01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:27.760
the one he's doing

01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:31.800
today um oh as a cross post no we were

01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:34.199
asked not to we were asked to have it on

01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:37.719
Parallax but not to just go to

01:15:37.719 --> 01:15:39.880
Parallax I'm not going to post it on the

01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:41.600
pop of school we asked to just let it

01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:44.239
sit there um just go to to Parallax

01:15:44.239 --> 01:15:49.360
you'll find it um yeah um Parallax on

01:15:49.360 --> 01:15:56.400
YouTube um so um he learn from

01:15:56.480 --> 01:16:00.480
you I don't know he was very I I got to

01:16:00.480 --> 01:16:04.360
say we we we work systematically I made

01:16:04.360 --> 01:16:07.600
my points stronger and stronger um he

01:16:07.600 --> 01:16:09.840
said we were saying he he almost always

01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:14.199
said we were saying the same thing um it

01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:17.520
it it served a function I think in the

01:16:17.520 --> 01:16:21.480
community um and then he you know he has

01:16:21.480 --> 01:16:23.360
another one out now he's like Bonnie

01:16:23.360 --> 01:16:24.920
Bonnie I don't think Bonnie was saying

01:16:24.920 --> 01:16:27.679
this I and it's very it's fine it's

01:16:27.679 --> 01:16:34.199
very uh convivial let's say um um but I

01:16:34.199 --> 01:16:35.600
you know I don't think there's going to

01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:38.760
be like a series I mean we're not we're

01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:41.880
just doing different things um so I want

01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:46.840
to change my language did he learn with

01:16:47.360 --> 01:16:51.199
you I I didn't think I learned anything

01:16:51.199 --> 01:16:53.960
um that's probably not unus he just kept

01:16:53.960 --> 01:16:55.960
on saying Katie did you see it he just

01:16:55.960 --> 01:16:57.480
kept on saying we're saying the same

01:16:57.480 --> 01:16:59.480
thing so then I would say no this is

01:16:59.480 --> 01:17:00.719
what I'm saying and then he kept on

01:17:00.719 --> 01:17:03.040
saying we're saying the same thing and I

01:17:03.040 --> 01:17:06.880
kept but like this level of like I don't

01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:09.239
think he's saying what we're saying here

01:17:09.239 --> 01:17:12.120
I I I don't know

01:17:12.120 --> 01:17:15.480
um so didn't seem it didn't seem to me

01:17:15.480 --> 01:17:17.040
like he's saying the same thing that

01:17:17.040 --> 01:17:20.679
we're saying here no no nor was it the

01:17:20.679 --> 01:17:24.560
thing to really push it you know exactly

01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:28.800
um so um well this is I mean this you

01:17:28.800 --> 01:17:31.440
know the problem with these

01:17:31.440 --> 01:17:35.080
people of course it's my opinion and

01:17:35.080 --> 01:17:38.239
it's it's also not their fault but the

01:17:38.239 --> 01:17:41.080
problem is it's very one-sided I've read

01:17:41.080 --> 01:17:43.679
a lot of daffne I've known all his but

01:17:43.679 --> 01:17:47.080
he doesn't know anything about what I do

01:17:47.080 --> 01:17:49.280
you know you know you have to read these

01:17:49.280 --> 01:17:54.800
little things you have to work hard uh

01:17:54.800 --> 01:17:57.800
and so um like I'm GNA have another

01:17:57.800 --> 01:18:00.560
conversation with Greg and he's more

01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:03.639
interested in you you know I'm not

01:18:03.639 --> 01:18:07.159
saying gath's not interested but yeah

01:18:07.159 --> 01:18:09.600
it's a lot of work because my everything

01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:11.360
we're doing here is so we're not even

01:18:11.360 --> 01:18:12.760
the same

01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:14.920
ballpark as you know what I'm saying

01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:18.320
we're like living in a Another

01:18:18.320 --> 01:18:21.239
World um

01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:24.480
so you know I you think I could say he's

01:18:24.480 --> 01:18:26.440
got the book first principles and values

01:18:26.440 --> 01:18:27.880
should I do you think I could say we

01:18:27.880 --> 01:18:30.639
need to decouple values from moral

01:18:30.639 --> 01:18:34.199
action like how could he possibly you

01:18:34.199 --> 01:18:36.360
guys understand it because slowly and

01:18:36.360 --> 01:18:39.600
systematically we've done a lot of work

01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:43.320
but to just say that sounds ridiculous

01:18:43.320 --> 01:18:44.920
and I don't have the relationship with

01:18:44.920 --> 01:18:47.360
him where I can say and then he's like

01:18:47.360 --> 01:18:50.120
wow that's really interesting let's get

01:18:50.120 --> 01:18:52.040
into that it would just seem you know we

01:18:52.040 --> 01:18:53.440
had to agree that I wasn't going to

01:18:53.440 --> 01:18:56.120
accuse him of pre-modern lineage and he

01:18:56.120 --> 01:19:00.520
wasn't going to accuse me of postmodern

01:19:00.520 --> 01:19:03.239
relativism but if you're not careful

01:19:03.239 --> 01:19:06.320
that's what we sound like so so it's

01:19:06.320 --> 01:19:09.199
very hard to have this is why I have to

01:19:09.199 --> 01:19:11.000
write the book you know and have it make

01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:12.560
sense because then people will read it

01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:15.480
and they'll be like what the

01:19:15.480 --> 01:19:19.159
 she say like this is ridiculous and

01:19:19.159 --> 01:19:20.520
then you

01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:24.120
know but yeah you can imagine me saying

01:19:24.120 --> 01:19:26.520
well actually Mark I don't even think

01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:29.239
values are a part of the moral

01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:32.600
equation and I'd be honest but it like

01:19:32.600 --> 01:19:35.000
can you

01:19:35.159 --> 01:19:37.719
imagine how about Ian M Gilchrist and

01:19:37.719 --> 01:19:39.960
value setion that was the question Susan

01:19:39.960 --> 01:19:41.960
had she's like sniffing around and she's

01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:44.639
like you don't really

01:19:44.639 --> 01:19:48.679
mean we're not considering values and

01:19:48.679 --> 01:19:53.320
I'm like yeah no what values and ethics

01:19:53.320 --> 01:19:56.440
maybe but not values and this stuff so

01:19:56.440 --> 01:19:59.520
um so um I just say that joyfully it

01:19:59.520 --> 01:20:03.080
just just is what it is uh but

01:20:03.080 --> 01:20:05.560
also yeah we're doing some some

01:20:05.560 --> 01:20:07.400
provocative stuff here I mean there

01:20:07.400 --> 01:20:09.400
could be a great critique I might be

01:20:09.400 --> 01:20:12.159
seeing it wrong but uh without going

01:20:12.159 --> 01:20:13.920
over here I'm looking at it this way

01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:17.440
then we don't move forward

01:20:20.159 --> 01:20:23.400
so there was a wonderful moment when

01:20:23.400 --> 01:20:25.480
you were both talking about lineage and

01:20:25.480 --> 01:20:28.360
and you um suggested that we include the

01:20:28.360 --> 01:20:29.800
Earth in

01:20:29.800 --> 01:20:32.320
that beautiful

01:20:32.320 --> 01:20:35.120
moment yeah but it you know and I said

01:20:35.120 --> 01:20:37.840
they go back to the metaphysics of the

01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:41.600
universe but they don't really take

01:20:41.600 --> 01:20:44.280
seriously what I was saying you know

01:20:44.280 --> 01:20:46.440
that not not really I didn't have the

01:20:46.440 --> 01:20:49.760
sense that he really understood or was

01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:52.199
taking the time to to to grock the

01:20:52.199 --> 01:20:53.840
nuance

01:20:53.840 --> 01:20:56.199
yeah and I didn't take the time to stab

01:20:56.199 --> 01:20:58.320
them and just keep saying no no no

01:20:58.320 --> 01:21:00.000
because of what I just said I mean if I

01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:03.719
tried to explain what I really meant uh

01:21:03.719 --> 01:21:05.800
it would just it wouldn't didn't have

01:21:05.800 --> 01:21:07.600
time and it would have sounded like

01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:10.880
nonsense in the context

01:21:10.880 --> 01:21:13.080
so I'm curious funny I know we're

01:21:13.080 --> 01:21:15.440
totally over time but okay yeah I'm just

01:21:15.440 --> 01:21:16.920
curious I mean is

01:21:16.920 --> 01:21:20.679
it just the way you are that I mean you

01:21:20.679 --> 01:21:23.520
like take the sacred cow and just

01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:25.920
as a starting Place poke at

01:21:25.920 --> 01:21:29.159
it or you know surveying like what's the

01:21:29.159 --> 01:21:31.280
popular thing and and let's let's like

01:21:31.280 --> 01:21:34.239
reverse it or come up with a counter no

01:21:34.239 --> 01:21:36.080
this is an interesting question well

01:21:36.080 --> 01:21:37.679
first of all you have to know I read

01:21:37.679 --> 01:21:40.120
everything like like even for this

01:21:40.120 --> 01:21:45.760
course it's just been and I find like I

01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:47.600
love the title of this book insights and

01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:51.239
oversights of great thinkers um it's

01:21:51.239 --> 01:21:53.239
it's you it's

01:21:53.239 --> 01:21:55.400
you can see that something is going

01:21:55.400 --> 01:21:58.480
somewhere and yet there's not enough I

01:21:58.480 --> 01:22:02.480
don't know there I so I'm but I also

01:22:02.480 --> 01:22:05.000
have this feeling that came from when I

01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:07.199
first you know I didn't I wasn't doing

01:22:07.199 --> 01:22:10.000
this until integral came along and there

01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:12.199
was forums but because I'm not an

01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:14.920
academic but I took seriously that there

01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:17.040
was I took gabster seriously that there

01:22:17.040 --> 01:22:20.280
was a whole new something and I I guess

01:22:20.280 --> 01:22:22.320
it spoke to me because I always felt

01:22:22.320 --> 01:22:24.239
like

01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:26.840
I mean I told you I I taught math and

01:22:26.840 --> 01:22:29.760
science courses to my own fifth sixth

01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:32.199
sixth seventh and eth grade classes so I

01:22:32.199 --> 01:22:34.120
didn't really think

01:22:34.120 --> 01:22:36.239
that people knew what they were

01:22:36.239 --> 01:22:37.719
necessarily knew what they were talking

01:22:37.719 --> 01:22:39.360
about you know

01:22:39.360 --> 01:22:42.159
and then I've had this always had this

01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:45.719
mind that

01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:51.560
is it's not like I'm hyper rational but

01:22:51.560 --> 01:22:53.719
um

01:22:53.719 --> 01:22:56.199
it's like it seems that things that

01:22:56.199 --> 01:22:57.159
people

01:22:57.159 --> 01:23:00.120
say um you know Alon musk is actually

01:23:00.120 --> 01:23:01.560
like this I heard him talking about

01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:03.960
Hamas and Israel and he says what Israel

01:23:03.960 --> 01:23:07.920
needs to do is conspicuous acts of

01:23:07.920 --> 01:23:12.120
kindness because hamas's only strategy

01:23:12.120 --> 01:23:14.360
is to uh

01:23:14.360 --> 01:23:18.000
provoke um responses from

01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:20.400
Israel and so this is somebody like

01:23:20.400 --> 01:23:23.000
Steps out and says you know if it's not

01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:28.320
working it's not working and um and and

01:23:28.320 --> 01:23:31.280
just having both being embodied and

01:23:31.280 --> 01:23:34.040
conceptual you can

01:23:34.040 --> 01:23:38.360
see the the oversights of one or the

01:23:38.360 --> 01:23:42.440
other that's a big part of it um but I'm

01:23:42.440 --> 01:23:45.080
not out there to I did say that in the

01:23:45.080 --> 01:23:46.719
GNE thing I like well you know I have a

01:23:46.719 --> 01:23:49.000
hard critique of and then I said well I

01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:50.520
just have a hard critique of everything

01:23:50.520 --> 01:23:52.960
I used to say you know Wilbur whole

01:23:52.960 --> 01:23:55.639
philosophy was because he realized

01:23:55.639 --> 01:23:58.280
everyone was right and my whole thing is

01:23:58.280 --> 01:24:00.400
I realize everyone is wrong you know so

01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:01.120
it

01:24:01.120 --> 01:24:06.560
is it is something about

01:24:06.560 --> 01:24:08.440
um you

01:24:08.440 --> 01:24:11.840
know it we can't have it's

01:24:11.840 --> 01:24:14.520
impossible to say these things are right

01:24:14.520 --> 01:24:16.480
because we're just destroying the Earth

01:24:16.480 --> 01:24:20.080
increasingly faster rates uh so we can't

01:24:20.080 --> 01:24:22.679
be right it's not possible it's not not

01:24:22.679 --> 01:24:26.159
possible that we've gotten there yet and

01:24:26.159 --> 01:24:29.159
so

01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:34.040
um that motivates me also right

01:24:34.040 --> 01:24:38.320
so and

01:24:40.320 --> 01:24:43.000
um but you guys see it too you know you

01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:44.600
look at it a certain way and you're like

01:24:44.600 --> 01:24:48.199
why did I think that you know like like

01:24:48.199 --> 01:24:51.360
um like the whole values

01:24:51.360 --> 01:24:53.719
thing when that came online for me

01:24:53.719 --> 01:24:55.800
integral I remember being at work and I

01:24:55.800 --> 01:24:57.480
used to have these arguments with this

01:24:57.480 --> 01:24:59.520
young girl who who was a designer she

01:24:59.520 --> 01:25:02.840
grew up as a landscaper and then put

01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:05.119
herself to school and became a a

01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:07.119
landscape designer and we'd always have

01:25:07.119 --> 01:25:09.400
these fights she'd come in you blah blah

01:25:09.400 --> 01:25:11.360
blah blah and I like yeah but BL blah

01:25:11.360 --> 01:25:13.000
blah blah and I always win the fight and

01:25:13.000 --> 01:25:16.320
she'd go out and be mad but she would do

01:25:16.320 --> 01:25:19.679
what I said and one day you know this is

01:25:19.679 --> 01:25:22.520
as she maybe six or seven or eight years

01:25:22.520 --> 01:25:25.840
in maybe 10 years in same thing same

01:25:25.840 --> 01:25:27.560
Dynamic blah blah blah blah blah and I'm

01:25:27.560 --> 01:25:30.239
like yeah but because I was always like

01:25:30.239 --> 01:25:32.679
had larger and larger contexts and she

01:25:32.679 --> 01:25:35.800
was kind of and in the middle of winning

01:25:35.800 --> 01:25:38.320
and then just before she stomped out I

01:25:38.320 --> 01:25:40.280
realized I was

01:25:40.280 --> 01:25:43.960
wrong because you could be um have the

01:25:43.960 --> 01:25:46.360
better argument and still be wrong

01:25:46.360 --> 01:25:48.400
because she had a local context right

01:25:48.400 --> 01:25:50.360
and I'm like yeah but developmental

01:25:50.360 --> 01:25:52.040
Theory says like if your mind does this

01:25:52.040 --> 01:25:54.719
and this and this and this and then I

01:25:54.719 --> 01:25:56.199
thought well

01:25:56.199 --> 01:26:00.239
how well that's weird you know like

01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:02.360
that's weird when spiral Dynamics first

01:26:02.360 --> 01:26:04.360
came out it was so obvious to me that

01:26:04.360 --> 01:26:06.199
the two owners of the company the man

01:26:06.199 --> 01:26:12.560
was was uh uh red and his wife was blue

01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:17.440
okay and then I thought well how is that

01:26:17.440 --> 01:26:20.159
helpful it wasn't helpful at all all

01:26:20.159 --> 01:26:22.760
that you know it's not just not helpful

01:26:22.760 --> 01:26:26.840
to know that that's what their values

01:26:27.159 --> 01:26:30.840
are it just is like saying one's one's a

01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:32.560
Libra and one's a

01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:37.719
whatever you know um

01:26:38.840 --> 01:26:41.960
so this is also true of our models you

01:26:41.960 --> 01:26:44.840
know they come they arise in a context

01:26:44.840 --> 01:26:47.000
and they should not point to things that

01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:51.280
just don't seem real you know um but if

01:26:51.280 --> 01:26:55.000
they're useful and help F to open up

01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:56.520
understand more of the human condition

01:26:56.520 --> 01:26:58.880
that hasn't been articulated before then

01:26:58.880 --> 01:27:01.119
then then that's

01:27:01.119 --> 01:27:02.230
useful

01:27:02.230 --> 01:27:05.290
[Music]

01:27:06.880 --> 01:27:09.600
um plus and then the last thing just to

01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:11.480
answer your question is I'm like this

01:27:11.480 --> 01:27:14.119
with everything like I always make up my

01:27:14.119 --> 01:27:17.480
own recipes and I make up my own like

01:27:17.480 --> 01:27:22.440
like shut knes and and my Gardens are at

01:27:22.440 --> 01:27:24.320
it's like too boring just to do

01:27:24.320 --> 01:27:26.560
something that's been done before it's

01:27:26.560 --> 01:27:29.760
actually very boring uh so I always make

01:27:29.760 --> 01:27:31.400
up everything that I

01:27:31.400 --> 01:27:33.199
do

01:27:33.199 --> 01:27:38.080
um when I was a kid I we I was in this

01:27:38.080 --> 01:27:41.400
um literature class of

01:27:41.400 --> 01:27:43.520
Shakespeare this have been sophomore in

01:27:43.520 --> 01:27:44.520
high

01:27:44.520 --> 01:27:48.679
school and our assignment was to take a

01:27:48.679 --> 01:27:52.880
son it and describe it you know to like

01:27:52.880 --> 01:27:55.880
analyze it do a book report on it and I

01:27:55.880 --> 01:27:59.600
did it but I did it in I Amic

01:27:59.600 --> 01:28:03.360
pentameter because it was too boring to

01:28:03.360 --> 01:28:07.560
just so so uh I actually had to ask him

01:28:07.560 --> 01:28:10.639
for another day I I I turned it in a day

01:28:10.639 --> 01:28:13.560
late because it was a lot of work

01:28:13.560 --> 01:28:16.920
but that was really that was really fun

01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:19.360
you know so Sandra and I were talking

01:28:19.360 --> 01:28:21.040
the other day laughing

01:28:21.040 --> 01:28:23.960
reflecting how hanging out with you has

01:28:23.960 --> 01:28:26.639
wrecked us on so many things that we

01:28:26.639 --> 01:28:28.679
formerly perhaps thought were useful but

01:28:28.679 --> 01:28:32.040
could see that that no longer are are

01:28:32.040 --> 01:28:34.000
plus it's a it's something like Steve

01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:36.239
Jobs saying you know everything you use

01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:39.040
has been made by someone you know don't

01:28:39.040 --> 01:28:41.880
take it for granted that it's the be all

01:28:41.880 --> 01:28:44.880
and end all of what could be and you

01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:47.880
guys are some of the most

01:28:47.880 --> 01:28:51.400
remarkable uh people because not because

01:28:51.400 --> 01:28:53.880
maybe you're read all this stuff and

01:28:53.880 --> 01:28:55.639
you're conceptual but there's something

01:28:55.639 --> 01:28:59.719
more alive and at the edge something not

01:28:59.719 --> 01:29:01.840
being understand you don't have to be

01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:05.679
socialized to belong and so we we are

01:29:05.679 --> 01:29:08.440
making look you know the the book is

01:29:08.440 --> 01:29:10.960
being made up by the fact that we're

01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:14.040
having these sessions and I get my when

01:29:14.040 --> 01:29:16.400
my mouth can say things then I know how

01:29:16.400 --> 01:29:19.239
to language it or else it's all just

01:29:19.239 --> 01:29:22.000
this huge intuition that gets bottled up

01:29:22.000 --> 01:29:29.040
you know so this is what we're doing and

01:29:29.199 --> 01:29:33.600
um yeah so anyways I guess I'm doing I

01:29:33.600 --> 01:29:37.320
do it for the same reason you guys do

01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:41.119
it thanks for the

01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:44.159
question



## Cohort 4

00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:06.319
all right so let's um have an open

00:00:06.319 --> 00:00:07.800
discussion

00:00:07.800 --> 00:00:11.120
until about quarter after or 20 after

00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:12.400
are there

00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.320
any questions or modifications or things

00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:20.119
you've been thinking about the first

00:00:20.119 --> 00:00:24.840
three uh sessions have been extremely

00:00:24.840 --> 00:00:26.400
rich

00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:29.160
um and we do have a prompt again today

00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:31.520
so

00:00:31.520 --> 00:00:36.040
um we'll be going into breakout

00:00:43.760 --> 00:00:47.840
groups what have we done so

00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:01.920
far

00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.840
any insights or

00:01:22.960 --> 00:01:24.840
questions about

00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:27.600
values last week we talked about values

00:01:27.600 --> 00:01:31.200
we're decoupling values okay Susan

00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:33.680
well I'm just curious having heard the

00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:39.000
good and evil song um that you posted a

00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:43.040
comment from um har which said that the

00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:46.520
tragedy of existence is not essentially

00:01:46.520 --> 00:01:49.040
the conflict of Good and Evil but of

00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:50.600
good with

00:01:50.600 --> 00:01:53.439
good I'm really curious

00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.320
about that and what people feel about

00:01:56.320 --> 00:02:01.439
that how we unpack that um

00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.840
yeah yeah so I'm just putting that out

00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:07.319
there really thank

00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:12.599
you yeah so we come to that in this way

00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:17.560
we see that at the level of nature

00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:20.720
animals there are yeah the fox and the

00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:23.280
rabbit you know I try to just tell the

00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.360
one story over and over and over again

00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.239
they become the icons The Fox and the

00:02:27.239 --> 00:02:29.879
rabbits are mutually they're just

00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:31.920
competing Goods right they're not even

00:02:31.920 --> 00:02:33.160
competing

00:02:33.160 --> 00:02:36.840
Goods the term is

00:02:37.040 --> 00:02:41.440
incommensurable that there's no

00:02:43.760 --> 00:02:48.120
way sorry I'm eating a cough

00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:50.920
job you know how they get to be the

00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:53.360
little pieces and then

00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.760
you suck them into your wind pipe

00:02:58.760 --> 00:03:03.400
okay so there's no perspective from

00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.319
which you can say which one is better

00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:07.959
for the fox to eat the rabbit or the

00:03:07.959 --> 00:03:09.680
rabbits get away you can jum you can

00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.400
jump into this the fox's perspective or

00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:13.400
the other

00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.959
perspective but there is no perspective

00:03:15.959 --> 00:03:18.080
from which you

00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.360
can um judge which is better because

00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:25.720
they're both Goods okay and then AR

00:03:25.720 --> 00:03:27.720
saying at the level of

00:03:27.720 --> 00:03:30.840
humans um there's also something but we

00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.040
can see that the fact that these goods

00:03:34.040 --> 00:03:38.480
are like that it creates an ecological

00:03:38.480 --> 00:03:41.680
system that's that's rich it enriches

00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:43.560
the ecological system now the fox

00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.000
doesn't know that and the Rabbit doesn't

00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.159
know that but people know that and then

00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:52.239
he's saying like at the level of humans

00:03:52.239 --> 00:03:55.079
we have these values and they also can

00:03:55.079 --> 00:03:57.040
be

00:03:57.040 --> 00:03:59.280
incommensurable and maybe humans can't

00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.760
see that that but if we could get above

00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:04.360
the human predicament we could see that

00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:06.439
it also just like it makes for a richer

00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:11.439
ecology it makes for a richer good um

00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.959
and so he says most most

00:04:15.959 --> 00:04:20.959
um he says you know most conflicts are

00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.720
one person on one side have has having

00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.280
values

00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:29.320
desires and taking actions and the one

00:04:29.320 --> 00:04:31.000
person the other side having values

00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.639
desires and taking

00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.800
actions in their own context they don't

00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:37.800
seem to be good or bad but you put them

00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:40.600
together and you have this Inc

00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:45.280
commensurability so now he he uses the

00:04:45.280 --> 00:04:47.240
term evil in that we're gonna work with

00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.759
the term evil today so I'll build on

00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:52.320
that since you asked about it and that's

00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:53.960
what we were going to do

00:04:53.960 --> 00:04:57.320
anyways I so I'm I want to make the

00:04:57.320 --> 00:04:59.000
distinction between incommensurable

00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:01.120
values and then

00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.479
evil of and so evil uh one of the things

00:05:05.479 --> 00:05:11.039
we want to do is um not make the mistake

00:05:11.039 --> 00:05:16.759
of um we want to decouple evil from

00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:21.759
suffering okay because suffering is a

00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:26.080
part of the human condition and we're um

00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:29.600
and according to our definition there's

00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:32.880
just as much if not more potential to

00:05:32.880 --> 00:05:35.319
increase the good in situations when

00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:37.720
they're suffering as in situations when

00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.080
there's happiness or joy let's

00:05:41.080 --> 00:05:44.639
say because increasing the good means

00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.880
increasing the potential for the good in

00:05:47.880 --> 00:05:50.000
the internal relations between you and

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.360
the

00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.360
other so if I have that cranky old man

00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:59.000
who's dying and I sit with them and in a

00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:02.319
way that is very respectful and brings

00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:06.240
them peace then between us we're

00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:09.479
increasing the good and as he relaxes

00:06:09.479 --> 00:06:13.599
and feels better then my innards become

00:06:13.599 --> 00:06:17.520
more good also and so in this tremendous

00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:19.800
suffering we have an an excellent

00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.240
opportunity to increase the

00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:25.319
good so we don't want to go and when we

00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.400
see suffering look for evil suffering is

00:06:28.400 --> 00:06:30.840
not

00:06:30.840 --> 00:06:33.400
the ne

00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:36.800
necessary um or sufficient condition to

00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:40.759
find evil this is a big mistake lots of

00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.840
people make I'm suffering it's

00:06:43.840 --> 00:06:46.639
somebody's fault they must be

00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:51.440
evil um and so does that make sense like

00:06:51.440 --> 00:06:56.440
just as an axiom I'm we're GNA do

00:06:56.440 --> 00:06:59.960
what we're g to do a

00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:01.440
Roberto are you trying somebody's trying

00:07:01.440 --> 00:07:03.680
to

00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:09.360
talk so we just want to be careful we're

00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.759
not doing that you know slipping into

00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.120
that that

00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.120
convenient

00:07:18.440 --> 00:07:23.639
uh David needs to turn his second self

00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:30.039
off

00:07:30.039 --> 00:07:32.319
something very strange is happening here

00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:34.120
with

00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.360
David just

00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.360
close I think they're in

00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.759
heaven can you mute them Bonnie oh I can

00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:54.840
mute maybe his yeah let me see if I can

00:07:54.840 --> 00:07:57.080
do

00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.319
that

00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:07.240
no I can't mute

00:08:14.280 --> 00:08:17.440
him David it's the opposite mute the one

00:08:17.440 --> 00:08:21.599
that's unmuted and unmute the one that's

00:08:21.599 --> 00:08:26.080
muted I don't know I don't

00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.120
okay the problem his computer Frozen

00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:31.320
can't turn it

00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:35.719
off oh so why can't I mute him I'm

00:08:35.719 --> 00:08:38.479
trying to turn my sound

00:08:38.479 --> 00:08:42.120
off why don't you

00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:45.959
say and we'll come back in so they're

00:08:45.959 --> 00:08:48.959
yeah

00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:55.920
oh don't do

00:08:55.920 --> 00:09:00.200
it I've got I can do it can you hear

00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.600
yeah we're our sound is working there

00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.079
very well okay I'll turn mine off now

00:09:07.079 --> 00:09:10.560
sorry sorry

00:09:14.040 --> 00:09:16.040
guys all

00:09:16.040 --> 00:09:19.399
right so we're gonna so we want as we're

00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.519
moving through this this is what we're

00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:26.480
going to learn today is to um uh not

00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.120
conflate evil with suffering

00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.959
and we're just going to Define evil it's

00:09:33.959 --> 00:09:36.600
not going to solve it right now as um

00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.720
the decreasing of the potential for the

00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:42.200
good in the self and

00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.160
other and we talked last time this can

00:09:48.160 --> 00:09:53.240
be a definition of evil also is that um

00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.839
when I'm in conflict with another person

00:09:55.839 --> 00:09:57.959
and I'm interacting with them yelling at

00:09:57.959 --> 00:10:01.279
them or bombing them or fighting with

00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:07.360
them or uh then what inevitably happens

00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.000
is I'm inviting some of their reality

00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:15.600
into me and so I'm actually decreasing

00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:18.200
the potential for good inside myself and

00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:20.800
inside

00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:25.200
them so that's the definition of evil it

00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.160
has to do with increasing or decreasing

00:10:28.160 --> 00:10:31.680
the potential for the next moment to add

00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:34.959
or add more

00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:48.480
goodness how do you or where do you

00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:54.440
place learning in that

00:10:54.600 --> 00:11:00.120
Dynamic um that's interesting because um

00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:01.760
we were going to do one prompt that has

00:11:01.760 --> 00:11:07.120
something to do with that and that is um

00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:10.200
um you of especially a child a child

00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.200
will do something and right at the

00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:13.839
moment they're doing it they're very

00:11:13.839 --> 00:11:16.360
naive then something switches and they

00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:18.639
realize it was it was

00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.240
wrong and until that s till that moment

00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:23.920
and I always tell the story of this one

00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:26.720
cat that I was a tom cat and I spent

00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.760
days and days or maybe months I don't

00:11:28.760 --> 00:11:31.000
know was really young uh trying to make

00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.079
friends with it and then one day it got

00:11:33.079 --> 00:11:35.160
really close and I caught it by the tail

00:11:35.160 --> 00:11:37.800
and it got really like it was feral and

00:11:37.800 --> 00:11:39.639
it was freaked out and then I started

00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:41.440
swinging it by the tail I mean

00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:43.160
everything happened really fast and then

00:11:43.160 --> 00:11:46.160
all of a sudden I realized like that I

00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:48.079
love I really kind of loved that cat why

00:11:48.079 --> 00:11:49.519
would you know that and I felt really

00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:54.000
bad and so a lot of times your moral

00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.639
intuition um it it you you be involved

00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.360
in some something and then the switch

00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:04.079
happens and you realize Ah that's bad

00:12:04.079 --> 00:12:05.839
like the moment before you didn't

00:12:05.839 --> 00:12:07.959
realize it was bad and then all of a

00:12:07.959 --> 00:12:09.800
sudden something happens and you realize

00:12:09.800 --> 00:12:15.079
it was wrong um and and and now this is

00:12:15.079 --> 00:12:18.480
very process philosophy so you never

00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.920
want to um beat up on your previous self

00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:25.880
who didn't know it was bad because

00:12:25.880 --> 00:12:27.600
you've just increased the potential for

00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.600
the good going forward and the past is

00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:32.839
actually you can't change the

00:12:32.839 --> 00:12:35.519
past there's no way to go and change the

00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.600
past if you want to if you want to make

00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:45.360
reparations um restore or

00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:49.160
um or recompense the past that's that's

00:12:49.160 --> 00:12:50.959
the business of

00:12:50.959 --> 00:12:54.240
Justice not morality right so we said

00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.079
justice has to do with restoring or or

00:12:58.079 --> 00:13:02.320
or repairing Shing or or uh

00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:06.920
recompensa for interactions external

00:13:06.920 --> 00:13:10.600
relations you can do that and still not

00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:17.480
increase the the good you can go and

00:13:19.760 --> 00:13:23.760
take all you can go and take all the

00:13:23.760 --> 00:13:28.040
territory away from the settlers by

00:13:28.040 --> 00:13:30.199
force

00:13:30.199 --> 00:13:33.000
and let the indigenous people come back

00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:36.079
that's that's that's a kind of justice

00:13:36.079 --> 00:13:39.560
and poison both of them they might hate

00:13:39.560 --> 00:13:42.240
each other for the rest for the rest of

00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.760
their existence so that would be just a

00:13:45.760 --> 00:13:48.800
just acts that's morally

00:13:48.800 --> 00:13:52.360
reprehensible as are all just Wars

00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.240
they're

00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.160
just because the justice is a whole

00:13:57.160 --> 00:14:00.320
different frame it deals with external

00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.560
interactions and

00:14:02.560 --> 00:14:06.040
interests what do you think of the

00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:08.240
notion

00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:12.360
of accountability is associated or in

00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.480
the context of morality for me I've

00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.800
turned it into accountability being

00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:21.839
available for

00:14:27.680 --> 00:14:29.279
transformation

00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.320
I think

00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.160
um I mean I think it's in the same line

00:14:35.160 --> 00:14:37.519
but if we just think increasing the good

00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:38.920
you don't have to have a huge

00:14:38.920 --> 00:14:40.720
transformation you just have to keep

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.600
moving in that

00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:47.839
direction um you don't have to have

00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:51.800
like some kind of

00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.320
religious transformation of something

00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:57.240
and accountability I don't know that

00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.079
sounds that sounds a little a little bit

00:14:59.079 --> 00:15:01.120
like justice to

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.000
me who's making who

00:15:05.560 --> 00:15:09.079
accountable um and we don't want to

00:15:09.079 --> 00:15:11.399
work we don't want to work with our own

00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.160
selves that way we don't want to make

00:15:13.160 --> 00:15:15.440
our own selves okay this is in this

00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:17.759
sense of morality I mean we also live in

00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:19.720
a world where we want Justice and we

00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:21.639
also live in a world we want ethics so

00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:23.639
I'm not talking about those things we're

00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:27.360
talking about this this Mor this realm

00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.600
of morality

00:15:31.199 --> 00:15:35.440
if I mean yeah

00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.639
so so there's a there's a distinction

00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.800
here you know Jesus if you want to use

00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:47.959
that story didn't make Mary Magdalene

00:15:47.959 --> 00:15:51.440
accountable for her

00:15:53.880 --> 00:15:57.360
lifestyle he didn't ethically

00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.600
evaluate nor seek

00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.800
justice so we're we're working with a

00:16:03.800 --> 00:16:07.720
religious or theological or or spiritual

00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:09.839
definition of morality here which is

00:16:09.839 --> 00:16:12.800
what morality should be I mean that's

00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:15.720
why it's morality and not ethics or

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:20.680
Justice and Justice and morality often

00:16:20.680 --> 00:16:24.600
um in conflict with each other ethics

00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:28.800
not so much um ethics is more everyday

00:16:28.800 --> 00:16:30.959
um stuff and ethics usually people have

00:16:30.959 --> 00:16:34.480
a shared context to talk about ethics is

00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.279
it ethical to eat a

00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.920
dog it's these things are within a

00:16:38.920 --> 00:16:41.959
already a shared context so Justice is

00:16:41.959 --> 00:16:44.040
the context isn't shared so you're

00:16:44.040 --> 00:16:46.360
you're you're trying to adjudicate

00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.560
between um

00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:51.240
interactions and ethics usually it's a

00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.720
shared context like is it ethical to do

00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.120
this in as a psychiatrist is it ethical

00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.000
for a doctor to do this so the context

00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.560
is already shared but from the shared

00:17:00.560 --> 00:17:03.279
context you're trying to evaluate

00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:07.559
external re interactions and morality um

00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.839
again is usually the qu the questions of

00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.520
morality are usually arise when the the

00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:18.120
contexts are not shared

00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.120
um but these are good questions we just

00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:22.600
keep keep kind

00:17:22.600 --> 00:17:24.919
of defining the

00:17:24.919 --> 00:17:27.400
territory

00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.400
Charlie

00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.559
thanks so I had a question about your

00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:37.080
statement there you said that when I'm

00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:39.720
in conflict with somebody else I'm

00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.120
inviting their reality inside me which

00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:46.559
decreases the potential for good in

00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:51.160
terms of the outcome so I'd love to have

00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.600
an expansion of how that works right why

00:17:55.600 --> 00:17:59.039
inviting somebody else inside me is

00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.360
problematic thanks okay yeah because I

00:18:02.360 --> 00:18:05.640
said it fast and sloppy um so when we

00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.640
were talking about compound individuals

00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.400
and collectives we were using process

00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.840
philosophy terms and we were saying when

00:18:13.840 --> 00:18:16.640
I interact with anything when I interact

00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.960
with even objects like the the the

00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:22.880
something in the external interaction

00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:25.919
ingresses into my subjectivity even

00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:28.400
perceptions like this when I see a tree

00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:32.039
something about tress ingresses into my

00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.080
subjectivity so anytime I'm interacting

00:18:35.080 --> 00:18:38.559
with someone um if you want to call it

00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.919
intimacy it's in you intimacy is when

00:18:41.919 --> 00:18:44.000
you allow the other person to Ingress

00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.440
into you and you're ingressing into them

00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.159
and pretty soon you don't know whether

00:18:48.159 --> 00:18:49.960
it's your subjectivity or the other

00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:52.200
person's subjectivity so this notion of

00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.039
Ingress is an immutable law so when the

00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.480
beaver interacts with his the ponds

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.919
something about the pond ingresses into

00:19:00.919 --> 00:19:03.919
his subjectivity so he becomes one with

00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:10.000
the pond so we we know then from this

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.640
relationship that um hold on we know

00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.440
that from this relationship any

00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.840
interaction is going to imprint in my

00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:21.080
own

00:19:21.080 --> 00:19:22.960
subjectivity and so if I have

00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.159
interaction and I'm In conflict with

00:19:25.159 --> 00:19:26.840
that interaction that external

00:19:26.840 --> 00:19:28.600
interaction then there's going going to

00:19:28.600 --> 00:19:31.080
be a conflict within

00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:34.520
myself so I not only poison the other

00:19:34.520 --> 00:19:36.840
person if that's if the nature of the

00:19:36.840 --> 00:19:39.760
conflict is mutual I'm poisoning myself

00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:43.320
I'm taking in I'm ingressing conflict

00:19:43.320 --> 00:19:45.679
into

00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.679
myself so the ingressing the taking in

00:19:50.679 --> 00:19:53.360
of the other is a beautiful thing and

00:19:53.360 --> 00:19:56.720
it's impossible for that not to happen

00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:01.400
but this is all also why um you know

00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.559
maybe the the part of the moral equation

00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.960
of being connected in this way in

00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.200
internally and externally related to

00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:14.000
people um so I might kill you and that's

00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:16.880
an external thing and you know now I'm

00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:18.520
done because I don't have to deal with

00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:20.960
you anymore but of course I have to deal

00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.640
with you because that experience is

00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.640
ingressed into me as memory maybe I even

00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.000
don't even remember it but but it's in

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:30.679
it's internal to

00:20:30.679 --> 00:20:33.880
me um and so this is part of the moral

00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:38.280
code that um that is inescapable either

00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:40.640
the good is increased on both sides of

00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:42.400
the equation

00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:48.000
or the you inviting forces at odds with

00:20:50.520 --> 00:20:53.200
yourself and of course we understand

00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.880
this when we have these moral conundrums

00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:58.640
because they churn and inside of

00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.760
ourselves right we don't know what to do

00:21:00.760 --> 00:21:02.640
about it and it goes on and on and on

00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.600
we've already brought the we've

00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:08.880
interacted so um now Jus

00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.200
Justice doesn't really think about that

00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:14.880
it just thinks about external

00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.799
relationships when black lives matter

00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.200
matters runs into a restaurant and

00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.360
starts harassing white

00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:28.440
people that's Justice maybe but but it's

00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.440
not morally correct in this

00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:35.600
view because it just poisons everything

00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:38.080
it's a

00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:45.760
poison is that

00:21:45.760 --> 00:21:48.520
helpful yeah so yeah the ingressing is a

00:21:48.520 --> 00:21:52.720
beautiful thing and

00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.720
yeah

00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:01.000
Holly or Roberta or Holly okay Holly and

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:02.799
then Roberta yeah you you jumped around

00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.279
the screen here um yeah when you were

00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.120
talking about evil sort of as being a

00:22:08.120 --> 00:22:11.400
kind of a collapsing of of the good um

00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.000
it just brought up like at one of the

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.440
modules and kind of working with that

00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:16.600
still hunting

00:22:16.600 --> 00:22:22.080
gaze and noticing how um there was

00:22:22.080 --> 00:22:24.360
always something inviting me when I kind

00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:26.159
of really put myself out into the world

00:22:26.159 --> 00:22:29.360
like a wall or a chair where there might

00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:32.799
be a lot of psychic Babble going on and

00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.559
and narrative in my body but then the

00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:37.799
world inviting me to like the wall like

00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.080
noticing how the Wall's really still and

00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:42.799
really calm and having having that pull

00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:46.799
me out of this sort of psychic soup and

00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.559
you know you talking about that that

00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.480
experience of dilation that experience

00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:53.000
then of time and space

00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:54.799
expanding and then it was interesting

00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.640
when you were talking about evil what

00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.520
came up was like evil being a collapsing

00:22:59.520 --> 00:23:04.559
of the time and space like so evil um

00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.360
which is just sort of interesting I um

00:23:06.360 --> 00:23:09.720
so I just wanted toing it it decreases

00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:14.559
the potential for the good in the next

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.159
moment so that is like a collapse like

00:23:17.159 --> 00:23:20.360
there's no there's there's no potential

00:23:20.360 --> 00:23:22.520
it's it's it's kind of going to be an

00:23:22.520 --> 00:23:26.440
echo chamber it's just poison right so

00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:28.279
the reason why it's very important keep

00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:29.960
saying that is

00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:32.360
because

00:23:32.360 --> 00:23:36.960
um when you're in a moral conflict it's

00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.799
very important to be able to completely

00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.400
decouple from the past and say well all

00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.919
I can do is add more potential to the

00:23:44.919 --> 00:23:48.559
next moment because if you keep this is

00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:50.679
the problem with getting out of moral

00:23:50.679 --> 00:23:52.880
conflicts it's the Hat feels in the

00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.880
McCoy like you keep trying to repair or

00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.640
make retribution for the past

00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:00.640
and only in a creative

00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.960
Universe uh of of freely choosing agents

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.960
can you increase the potential for the

00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.440
good going forward so this is why this

00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.000
phrase is very important because you

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.080
can't act in the past and moral conflict

00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:23.000
is usually the inability to make a cut

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.159
and just say well all I can do now is

00:24:26.159 --> 00:24:28.960
try to increase the potential I will act

00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.399
for the good in the you know just in

00:24:31.399 --> 00:24:34.520
that direction in the next

00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:37.440
moment so I don't want to say you

00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.399
wouldn't do that at your mother's house

00:24:40.399 --> 00:24:43.919
I mean I want to say it but I can

00:24:43.919 --> 00:24:47.279
mitigate the things that I know won't

00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.120
increase the good in the next

00:24:52.159 --> 00:24:56.720
moment can I just follow up um I mean I

00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.600
noticed that

00:24:58.600 --> 00:25:00.600
I can in some ways change the past

00:25:00.600 --> 00:25:02.840
because sometimes when I go back and

00:25:02.840 --> 00:25:05.440
reflect and evaluate on it I can free

00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:07.600
myself from I can take different

00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:10.600
perspectives of it and and look at where

00:25:10.600 --> 00:25:14.559
the pattern maybe went a skew and um

00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.760
often like get forgiveness or or some

00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:20.559
sort of I can free myself from the sort

00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.399
of limited perspective I have on it um

00:25:23.399 --> 00:25:26.880
which then informs my future like it um

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:29.159
frees me up uh free up more potential in

00:25:29.159 --> 00:25:32.600
the future I notice exactly this notion

00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:36.080
of freeing in order to increase the

00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:39.679
potential um instead of drawing it down

00:25:39.679 --> 00:25:42.679
so

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.159
yeah this is why the

00:25:51.159 --> 00:25:54.720
Christian story of original sin is

00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:58.360
highly problematic to moral toor moral

00:25:58.360 --> 00:26:00.120
action in the

00:26:00.120 --> 00:26:03.120
world

00:26:03.520 --> 00:26:06.520
um

00:26:09.120 --> 00:26:12.000
Roberto I don't know if anybody's seen

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.960
um Ken Burns newest

00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:19.399
film on called American

00:26:19.399 --> 00:26:24.039
buffalo um I've been watching it and

00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:25.679
it's really hard to watch so if you

00:26:25.679 --> 00:26:27.159
watch it you're going to probably need

00:26:27.159 --> 00:26:31.120
to type treat um but I think what was

00:26:31.120 --> 00:26:34.240
fascinating about it tells the story of

00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.039
American Bison and um from like the

00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:40.320
beginning to

00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:43.720
today um and the thing that you could

00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:45.279
see is like the contrast in the

00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.520
beginning between like how native people

00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:51.000
um related to them in a kinship way in a

00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.480
spiritual way and so how they handled

00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:56.440
the Bison was really different they used

00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:58.559
every little bit of it you know versus

00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.320
when they got to be slaughtered by um

00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:04.960
kind of during Westward

00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.600
Expansion and uh I think what's

00:27:08.600 --> 00:27:11.679
fascinating to me about that is one um

00:27:11.679 --> 00:27:13.840
that that primordial wound that David

00:27:13.840 --> 00:27:16.279
Hinton talked about was so obvious to me

00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:17.799
you know like that disconnection from

00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:19.520
nature and how they created a really

00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:22.840
different scenario because of it and

00:27:22.840 --> 00:27:25.279
then um so after it was all said and

00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.720
done like almost extra pated like when

00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.000
there was multiple millions of these

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.200
animals um there were several different

00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.960
folks who had different motivations some

00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.559
of them quite nefarious but who wanted

00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:42.519
to bring the Bison back which is a

00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:44.000
really hard thing to do it's hard to

00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.600
reverse history you know um and if I

00:27:48.600 --> 00:27:52.000
were judging them I'd be like I don't

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.960
like their motivation let's not do that

00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.240
but when you look at it from this

00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.919
historical perspective added up if they

00:27:59.919 --> 00:28:02.640
hadn't gone forward and been allowed to

00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.480
go

00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.279
forward they never would have come back

00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:08.120
and the how they did it got much better

00:28:08.120 --> 00:28:12.600
over time um it was more just and more

00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:15.039
appropriate to the ecology to the point

00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:16.760
that there's now like a hundred tribes

00:28:16.760 --> 00:28:20.159
that have um restorative efforts but it

00:28:20.159 --> 00:28:21.919
was interesting to me to notice like I

00:28:21.919 --> 00:28:24.000
would have wanted to dismiss their them

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.840
based on their motivations you know but

00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:29.279
there but the action ended up being the

00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.679
same even though it had you know some of

00:28:31.679 --> 00:28:33.679
it had Eugenics mixed in and they didn't

00:28:33.679 --> 00:28:35.760
care about the people at all you know

00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:38.039
necessarily yeah tribes that were being

00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.440
destroyed you know and starved to death

00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.159
that kind of thing so this is a very

00:28:43.159 --> 00:28:46.159
interesting question in here actually I

00:28:46.159 --> 00:28:49.120
I I did see the trailers for it and I

00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:50.799
don't I think it'd be very hard for me

00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.279
to watch in fact I can't even get the

00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.360
courage to watch the best little biggest

00:28:56.360 --> 00:28:58.279
small farm

00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.399
because I'm just so hyp sensitive right

00:29:01.399 --> 00:29:05.840
now um but this notion of intentionality

00:29:05.840 --> 00:29:07.960
so a lot of a lot of moral theory has

00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.120
has to do well it's if your actions bad

00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:14.240
but your intentions were good

00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.399
um and or and then there's

00:29:16.399 --> 00:29:18.159
utilitarianism doesn't matter what your

00:29:18.159 --> 00:29:20.559
intentions are it's what your actions

00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:24.240
are Mo this theory of the moral animal

00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.760
which is a certain frame um Sid wipes

00:29:27.760 --> 00:29:30.600
that entirely um and so what you're

00:29:30.600 --> 00:29:34.480
describing is you extended your heart

00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.679
energy to give them the benit doubts

00:29:36.679 --> 00:29:39.320
let's see what happens you know you like

00:29:39.320 --> 00:29:42.080
like you didn't get you you wanted to

00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:44.519
like kind of beat up because they had

00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.840
like lousy intentions but

00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:54.279
to for us this is not this is not a

00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:56.320
preferred way to think about morality

00:29:56.320 --> 00:29:58.760
more like you said you know

00:29:58.760 --> 00:30:01.080
like um where's the goodness in there

00:30:01.080 --> 00:30:03.600
where's the goodness in my heart where

00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:07.760
is um

00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:14.559
um yeah but we don't talk about you know

00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:17.720
there's not much space not a lot of

00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.919
discussion around in whether it's good

00:30:20.919 --> 00:30:23.720
it's good if you have right intentions

00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.480
um versus utilitarianism would say uh

00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:29.919
doesn't matter what intentions you have

00:30:29.919 --> 00:30:33.799
it's whether you act on them or not um

00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:35.799
that's always part of the Moral Moral

00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:38.480
language but we it's not doesn't really

00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.880
I don't find it very

00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:42.519
useful

00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:45.279
um it's like Jimmy Carter said you know

00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:49.279
I I created I I I lusted in my heart is

00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.880
that a bad thing he didn't do anything

00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:56.399
about it like um yeah well but I think

00:30:56.399 --> 00:30:58.440
what's interesting is but is is the

00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:02.320
perspective came with history yes you

00:31:02.320 --> 00:31:03.919
know it's like looking back in it it's

00:31:03.919 --> 00:31:06.320
like oh thank God that

00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:08.840
happened yeah you know from in

00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:10.679
retrospect yeah and the other thing is

00:31:10.679 --> 00:31:13.519
we Act without not necessarily knowing

00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:14.760
could have been a disaster it could have

00:31:14.760 --> 00:31:15.799
been one of those things where they

00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.519
introduced the Rison and it ruins two

00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:20.600
other species or something right because

00:31:20.600 --> 00:31:22.840
they did it wrong or even like like in

00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:25.240
the beginning when the Slaughters were

00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.519
happening um you know really Different

00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:29.440
World Views and disconnection from

00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.360
nature but just they didn't have a they

00:31:33.360 --> 00:31:35.200
didn't live in this in this place in

00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:36.519
this geography so they couldn't have

00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:39.240
known right like what what they were

00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:41.720
doing yeah some of them once they

00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.480
figured it out stopped and reversed you

00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:47.279
know and became Advocates but not

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.039
everybody but you know yeah this is also

00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:54.960
that's another great point it's like

00:31:55.919 --> 00:32:01.600
um we you have to be very careful to

00:32:01.600 --> 00:32:04.760
um if it arises in my Consciousness that

00:32:04.760 --> 00:32:06.760
this is a bad thing I do it anyways

00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:08.799
because everyone else is doing it but

00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.200
for them it doesn't arise in their

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.320
Consciousness then

00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:16.840
um you know it's again it's the it's

00:32:16.840 --> 00:32:20.440
your internal State um and the other

00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:25.080
person's internal state so yeah it's um

00:32:25.080 --> 00:32:28.120
you know also like zooming Ming out into

00:32:28.120 --> 00:32:32.760
more like systems the um the a lot of

00:32:32.760 --> 00:32:35.120
the slaughter was driven by like demand

00:32:35.120 --> 00:32:37.760
for like fashion right in

00:32:37.760 --> 00:32:41.399
Europe right yeah and you know when it's

00:32:41.399 --> 00:32:43.080
like flavor of the month right or flavor

00:32:43.080 --> 00:32:44.679
of the Year whatever that goes out of

00:32:44.679 --> 00:32:46.720
fashion you know for wild birds on your

00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:48.720
hat were a big deal in France and they

00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.240
killed rare birds and you know things

00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:55.960
like that so this way that um like the

00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:58.880
like it's just this super simple

00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.600
calculation I need I need to sell pelts

00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:03.919
and even the the tribes started to do

00:33:03.919 --> 00:33:05.399
that like once they got involved in

00:33:05.399 --> 00:33:08.080
trade they overh harvested you know that

00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:10.080
kind of thing so just saying that like

00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:11.960
that the individual decision is pretty

00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:15.200
far removed from the fund the impact to

00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:16.799
even be able to see it like today it's

00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:18.960
much easier to see impact immediately

00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.200
because of our but then you know yeah

00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:25.679
and it's a question of scale because the

00:33:25.679 --> 00:33:29.679
Indians killed bird to make

00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:33.120
lavish things too but once they they got

00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:37.320
attached to Global well Colonial scale

00:33:37.320 --> 00:33:40.279
of production then the whole thing got

00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:44.320
tipped over so it wasn't a real yeah it

00:33:44.320 --> 00:33:47.919
wasn't a huge difference in it was this

00:33:47.919 --> 00:33:50.279
this notion of the way things scaled

00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:53.120
with the in the colonies and the

00:33:53.120 --> 00:33:54.919
relationship with the animal too like

00:33:54.919 --> 00:33:57.639
you know they ask permission they would

00:33:57.639 --> 00:34:00.440
pray to get permission from a bison to

00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:03.000
sacrifice it is an example so the Rel

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.240
the kinship is very intact you know yeah

00:34:12.520 --> 00:34:15.480
yeah anyway worth watching but be

00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.720
careful yeah and I think you know if

00:34:17.720 --> 00:34:20.000
you're someone who's slaughtering

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.480
depending on how it's arising in you you

00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:24.399
know the Buffalo is going to Ingress

00:34:24.399 --> 00:34:28.159
into you that like is g to and and so I

00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.320
think it reduces the potential to care

00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.599
about animals then that reduces the

00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:35.760
potential to care about people I mean we

00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.119
put people in refugee camps and we treat

00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:43.159
them like animals like and the whole the

00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.960
whole

00:34:46.040 --> 00:34:49.000
moral bar just keeps lowering and

00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:51.720
lowering and lowering yeah and that

00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:54.280
definitely happened in this case I think

00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:56.240
because it it parallels you know the

00:34:56.240 --> 00:34:58.480
movement into reservations and then the

00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.200
allotment act stealing the exactly yeah

00:35:02.200 --> 00:35:05.560
for sure yeah and then slaves and people

00:35:05.560 --> 00:35:09.640
in factories and then you know

00:35:09.640 --> 00:35:12.119
exactly yeah

00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.040
Matthew

00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:18.680
Matt hey um I saw your name come up and

00:35:18.680 --> 00:35:21.839
I thought Matthew mccon was in my course

00:35:21.839 --> 00:35:23.320
oh

00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:25.079
hey

00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.359
um I just jumped in

00:35:27.359 --> 00:35:30.000
and um I feel like when I jumped in what

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.400
you were talking about was like

00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.320
something that I just really experienced

00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:39.280
a decent amount

00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:45.800
um and so it's it's it was relating to

00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:51.119
how um con it was relating to conflict

00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.200
and oh I don't know if I can remember it

00:35:54.200 --> 00:35:57.560
now reading to conflict and how

00:35:57.560 --> 00:36:02.920
how morality you you want to kind

00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:05.480
of separate the past from what's

00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:10.319
Happening Now and to be a moral animal

00:36:10.319 --> 00:36:12.200
now

00:36:12.200 --> 00:36:16.480
um and I kind of you know I don't I hate

00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:17.880
to keep making it I feel like I make it

00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:21.160
about me often but this is what I have

00:36:21.160 --> 00:36:24.960
um is like in relationships often like

00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.240
whether it's work or just people friends

00:36:28.240 --> 00:36:30.960
Whatever Whenever I have a like for me a

00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.720
personal issue is like if I have a

00:36:32.720 --> 00:36:34.960
conflict with someone or it's hard for

00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.920
me to say that like for me I feel like a

00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.079
lot of fear in doing that for some

00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.319
reason I don't know why

00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.560
but I and if I don't address

00:36:47.560 --> 00:36:51.599
it and it continues I I totally notice

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:53.000
how it affects the

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.200
relationship I totally see that it's

00:36:55.200 --> 00:36:57.960
obvious I'm closed whatever they and

00:36:57.960 --> 00:36:59.480
I've talked to people was like oh I

00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:00.960
didn't notice anything but for me I

00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:05.119
definitely feel that um it's like a

00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.800
grudge I hold

00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.680
and and then if another issue comes up

00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:15.200
it gets complicated I'm wondering

00:37:15.200 --> 00:37:18.440
if you know the the way to kind of let

00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:23.480
go or maybe just a way is to do it

00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:25.599
perhaps internally

00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:28.680
but like a clean slate type of thing

00:37:28.680 --> 00:37:30.359
where you just kind of let it out and

00:37:30.359 --> 00:37:33.079
you tell the person let the chips fall

00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:34.119
as they

00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:38.680
may um and then that kind of sets the

00:37:38.680 --> 00:37:42.280
moral compass or the the relationship on

00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:46.280
a level field in a way where goodness

00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:48.200
can happen more

00:37:48.200 --> 00:37:50.920
so I don't know if I'm being clear I'm

00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:53.640
not sure what I'm trying to say yeah no

00:37:53.640 --> 00:37:55.680
you're you're you're saying a couple of

00:37:55.680 --> 00:37:59.480
interesting things so one is is that

00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:01.200
you're trying to increase the good

00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:03.440
overall and if the other person doesn't

00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:05.680
know you're mad and it's still eating

00:38:05.680 --> 00:38:09.119
aware at you then your goodness your

00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:11.079
potential for doing good is being

00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.680
reduced so you have to take care of your

00:38:13.680 --> 00:38:20.319
side of the equation also um and um and

00:38:20.319 --> 00:38:23.839
um I just and I think that I'll give you

00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:27.240
an exam example that's parenthetical but

00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:31.280
we're talking today about uh these two

00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.000
different uh approaches to Parenting you

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:37.839
know like so they say when your child

00:38:37.839 --> 00:38:40.119
cries don't just go up and like

00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:43.040
immediately go and and and calm the

00:38:43.040 --> 00:38:45.560
child and then other people say you know

00:38:45.560 --> 00:38:49.480
let him cry so he the child learns and

00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:51.960
the point is both are wrong when the

00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.040
child cries you get up and you pick him

00:38:54.040 --> 00:38:56.240
up or pick them up but you don't make a

00:38:56.240 --> 00:38:59.040
 about it it's it's of course you

00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:00.599
have to go and pick the child up he's

00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:02.680
crying but it's if

00:39:02.680 --> 00:39:05.480
you this is then this is

00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.400
overparenting uh if you let the child

00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:10.119
cry then that's underp parenting it's to

00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:13.200
it's to do the right interaction without

00:39:13.200 --> 00:39:15.720
the fuss or the the heat of it or and I

00:39:15.720 --> 00:39:17.880
know that that's the challenge you're

00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:20.960
describing it is hard the only thing you

00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.440
can do is experiment you have to

00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.480
experiment your way out of it and

00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:27.040
sometimes you'll be

00:39:27.040 --> 00:39:29.760
I've gone through that you

00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:34.640
know and even in small instances and big

00:39:34.640 --> 00:39:37.240
in and sometimes I felt ashamed

00:39:37.240 --> 00:39:39.359
afterwards and then I like should I be

00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:41.400
ashamed I don't know why am I ashamed

00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:44.000
and other people say no you there you

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.040
know it was fine and that's really hard

00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:48.920
when you feel ashamed especially because

00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:51.440
the other person's apt to respond and

00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:54.079
not and look to you like they're really

00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:57.560
mad um and it just I don't know any

00:39:57.560 --> 00:40:00.400
other way to get over the hump but to

00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:04.440
practice and it's hard to practice

00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:06.079
because

00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:08.480
um you you you're not going to get it

00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:09.800
right and you're not going to understand

00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.640
it every time and eventually you get

00:40:13.640 --> 00:40:16.000
clean you get cleaner and you can just

00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.880
do these things without having to charge

00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.400
because you know you should say

00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:21.839
something but you also know you have the

00:40:21.839 --> 00:40:25.960
charge so this is this is the problem

00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:28.640
yeah but yeah but you're

00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:31.800
intuiting you're not able to

00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:35.880
be more good if you if you're shut down

00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:37.440
you're on your side of the equation even

00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.560
if you're not ruining anything on the

00:40:39.560 --> 00:40:42.359
other side of the equation you're still

00:40:42.359 --> 00:40:46.560
not improving the the good I mean yeah I

00:40:46.560 --> 00:40:51.720
noticed like small things like you know

00:40:51.720 --> 00:40:53.599
and for sometimes I don't even know why

00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:55.599
I'm feeling a certain way toward

00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:58.760
somebody and it's like but I notice how

00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:00.880
I respond to them is in is in a way

00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:02.280
where I'm like oh I don't I don't want

00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.960
to do that you know want to be that

00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.520
person but there's also this other part

00:41:07.520 --> 00:41:09.640
that feels hurt or angry or something

00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:13.359
and it's like I'm sorry but you know

00:41:13.359 --> 00:41:18.119
yeah yeah but yeah and I don't think

00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.440
that ever I mean I don't other than the

00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.760
dolly llama who just laughs all the time

00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:25.079
Stu I'm I'm not sure that ever actually

00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:28.240
goes away just gets more and more

00:41:28.240 --> 00:41:30.520
complex you know you you you end up

00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:32.760
enter being able to enter more complex

00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:34.520
relationships and then you have to face

00:41:34.520 --> 00:41:38.839
it over and over again yeah um but it's

00:41:38.839 --> 00:41:40.640
it's so once you figure it out it's the

00:41:40.640 --> 00:41:45.359
same process so um yeah it almost feels

00:41:45.359 --> 00:41:49.000
to me like I've always had this fear

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.319
about it it's like this cold I I don't I

00:41:51.319 --> 00:41:53.040
don't like it it's really

00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:54.640
negative

00:41:54.640 --> 00:41:57.800
but it it's almost like but when I've

00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.760
done the communication and just talk

00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:02.520
with something with something someone

00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:04.599
about what what I

00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:06.319
feel

00:42:06.319 --> 00:42:09.240
um it has a tendency to flow and

00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:13.240
actually feel good yeah and very present

00:42:13.240 --> 00:42:15.720
very calm

00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:18.599
um calm but there still might be anxiety

00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:23.040
but it's like solid yeah kind of I guess

00:42:23.040 --> 00:42:25.359
yeah it's hard it's very hard work I

00:42:25.359 --> 00:42:27.920
mean it was hard for me I always believe

00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.000
it I'm you know I'm much more I'm more

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:33.319
of an introvert than an extrovert

00:42:33.319 --> 00:42:35.119
um

00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:37.839
and social a lot of social anxiety

00:42:37.839 --> 00:42:39.520
that's why I hang out you know my whole

00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:41.359
child that I just hung out with animals

00:42:41.359 --> 00:42:45.280
so um yeah it's

00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:50.720
hard yes great anything

00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:55.240
else okay we're going to go into a

00:42:55.240 --> 00:42:57.040
breakout group

00:42:57.040 --> 00:43:00.640
for I don't want to do the whole 45

00:43:00.640 --> 00:43:05.680
minutes maybe 30 minutes 35 minutes 35

00:43:05.680 --> 00:43:08.920
minutes let me do

00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:11.920
this

00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:23.680
H 35

00:43:23.680 --> 00:43:28.839
minutes okay The Prompt is is

00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:35.119
um so we're going to talk about we

00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:36.599
talked about suffering we want to we

00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.640
want to decouple suffering from

00:43:39.640 --> 00:43:41.559
from

00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.400
evil but the prompt is going to have is

00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.720
going to be about happiness all right

00:43:47.720 --> 00:43:49.839
and the question is what you're going to

00:43:49.839 --> 00:43:52.280
talk about is

00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:57.040
um what limits Your Capacity to be Happ

00:43:57.040 --> 00:44:00.040
happy so one way into get into this

00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:03.440
question is pretend

00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:08.079
you had for some fortuitous

00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.960
reason um the ability to have I don't

00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:16.800
know you know $200,000 income every year

00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.720
for the rest of your life it's you know

00:44:18.720 --> 00:44:21.280
not so much money that you'd feel like

00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:22.839
burdened like if I was a billionaire

00:44:22.839 --> 00:44:26.079
that would be just like but you know

00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:28.520
what if what if a lot of the

00:44:28.520 --> 00:44:31.160
everyday difficulties and

00:44:31.160 --> 00:44:33.400
challenges uh were

00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:35.880
removed um so you lived in a nicer place

00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:38.960
you lived you you know you uh if you

00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:40.880
have aches and pains or diseases those

00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.280
were gone um you had enough money you

00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:46.240
didn't have to worry about it um you

00:44:46.240 --> 00:44:50.440
know so all these things that we try to

00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:54.079
achieve are done for

00:44:54.720 --> 00:44:57.400
you what what would still limit Your

00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:02.200
Capacity to be happy like something you

00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:06.640
know would still be

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.800
there like it's like some people they

00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:14.480
just move to another country and they

00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.040
think it solves their problem and the

00:45:16.040 --> 00:45:18.280
thing that is limiting their capacity to

00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:20.760
be happy is still

00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.559
there so you just try to figure out what

00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:26.400
limits your capacity

00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.760
for

00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:36.119
happiness okay 35 minutes enjoy your

00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:40.200
conversation and enjoy your

00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.880
company

00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:14.520
okay what do we

00:46:19.640 --> 00:46:22.359
got one thing I will say is that in our

00:46:22.359 --> 00:46:23.440
little

00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:26.200
Triad searching for happiness doesn't

00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:28.000
appear to ever have been a focus of

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.040
attention of any of the three of

00:46:31.040 --> 00:46:34.480
us there was some focus

00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:38.440
on what was holding us back what might

00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:40.480
make us unhappy but

00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:45.520
happiness didn't seem to be a

00:46:47.240 --> 00:46:52.160
goal we also wondered about your choice

00:46:52.160 --> 00:46:55.359
of the word happy and happiness rather

00:46:55.359 --> 00:46:56.480
than

00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:01.359
framing it as in service of the

00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:27.720
good

00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.599
I pressed the wrong button um as our

00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:33.760
call was coming to an end our breakout

00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:37.440
room so that made me sad so sorry Evo

00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:39.280
and David and Phoebe because we were

00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:42.040
having a really nice conversation um we

00:47:42.040 --> 00:47:44.079
also started with the kind of barriers

00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:47.240
to to happiness um we started on the

00:47:47.240 --> 00:47:49.400
great doubt we spoke about what's the

00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:50.480
great

00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:55.000
doubt um that sometimes that that seems

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:56.960
to be at the bottom bottom of lots of

00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:59.960
things

00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:02.240
um and

00:48:02.240 --> 00:48:04.400
then we also spoke a little bit about

00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:06.200
alchemy we didn't really use that word

00:48:06.200 --> 00:48:11.040
but the kind of way of

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.480
attending to even you know to

00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:18.839
anything um to the humanity and someone

00:48:18.839 --> 00:48:23.880
else to that feeling of Doubt to a leper

00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:28.520
in the road is there a way of

00:48:28.520 --> 00:48:31.240
attending that's part of this

00:48:31.240 --> 00:48:34.880
capacity um that we're talking about and

00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.559
we we swapped in not kind of explicitly

00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:39.640
but we swapped in goodness a little bit

00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:42.000
for happiness

00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.319
that partly because we were using those

00:48:44.319 --> 00:48:47.400
words before but you know what's the

00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:51.839
capacity to feel in our our heart some

00:48:51.839 --> 00:48:56.119
kind of goodness that's ingressing

00:48:56.119 --> 00:48:59.640
you know from others and from the world

00:48:59.640 --> 00:49:01.760
and you know and how to kind of

00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.520
differentiate the kind of true signal

00:49:05.520 --> 00:49:07.400
right that deeper signal from a kind of

00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:08.960
just a reflection that we might have in

00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:11.799
our mind that seems to be behind the

00:49:11.799 --> 00:49:16.799
curve of this actual deeper feeling that

00:49:16.799 --> 00:49:21.559
we're trying to build a capacity for um

00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.160
and then I left at the end and it was

00:49:23.160 --> 00:49:26.480
getting really juicy um so I can't

00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.920
put a nice little bow on it but yeah it

00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:33.040
was a yeah David Phoebe um Evo yeah

00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:36.079
please please fill

00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.960
in well um we were we full circled back

00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:46.400
to

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:51.079
U the uh dynamics of limitation and got

00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:54.160
to this point

00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:58.920
of do I deserve

00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:03.520
happiness that's what you missed Claudia

00:50:03.520 --> 00:50:06.240
so we

00:50:06.240 --> 00:50:11.040
uh and I like I like how

00:50:11.040 --> 00:50:14.520
you the languaging of

00:50:14.520 --> 00:50:18.240
alchemize how can we

00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:21.839
alchemize uh a a vantage point that

00:50:21.839 --> 00:50:26.520
allows the capacity to be happy to

00:50:26.520 --> 00:50:29.640
expand if you

00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:33.720
will and

00:50:37.240 --> 00:50:40.440
uh I think it was interesting looking

00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:44.079
back that Phoebe talked about simply

00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:47.119
being willing to be happy is the entry

00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:51.640
point and I wanted to act on any arisal

00:50:51.640 --> 00:50:54.200
that happens once I'm willing so Phi was

00:50:54.200 --> 00:50:56.000
into being willing

00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:59.680
and David wanted to

00:50:59.680 --> 00:51:02.160
act but you kind of closed that because

00:51:02.160 --> 00:51:04.680
then Phoebe you said arousal is the

00:51:04.680 --> 00:51:08.160
movement to a kind of action you know

00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:11.799
which yeah just kind of both of them

00:51:11.799 --> 00:51:15.799
well arousal is also um not just located

00:51:15.799 --> 00:51:19.559
here you know arousal is already in some

00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:22.200
kind of um relational you know

00:51:22.200 --> 00:51:25.880
excitement and Inter relational Fe field

00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:29.680
of um

00:51:29.680 --> 00:51:33.760
so I I really love the idea that

00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:38.200
um I have in any moment the choice to

00:51:38.200 --> 00:51:40.559
increase the

00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:44.760
good and what what's the challenge of

00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:48.760
that like if there's if I'm not agreeing

00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:50.359
with someone and I happen to know that

00:51:50.359 --> 00:51:54.160
I'm right and I usually am so that's

00:51:54.160 --> 00:51:57.680
usually my starting point is I'm right

00:51:57.680 --> 00:52:01.200
so what so what you know how do I

00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:04.160
increase the good from that point

00:52:04.160 --> 00:52:06.160
there's usually some knocking down that

00:52:06.160 --> 00:52:11.280
has to happen but um am I

00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:17.119
willing yeah to to soften and be part of

00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:20.520
a larger arousal that includes more good

00:52:20.520 --> 00:52:24.280
that includes more

00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:27.280
interconnectivity

00:52:28.520 --> 00:52:33.400
and I did tell the story of David did a

00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:36.640
incredible uh held a circle of

00:52:36.640 --> 00:52:39.920
13-year-old kids in a local school

00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.480
Catholic School who had been to

00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:49.359
um uh the a a exhibit of the

00:52:49.359 --> 00:52:54.040
aitz U camps and Holocaust and they

00:52:54.040 --> 00:52:58.480
wanted to hear from someone who um uh

00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:01.400
David I guess um his future

00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:04.319
daughter-in-law volunteered because

00:53:04.319 --> 00:53:06.079
David's parents were both in the Work

00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.599
Camp in ashz and they wanted to hear

00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:11.799
from him and

00:53:11.799 --> 00:53:14.280
the so I brought

00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:18.079
in the

00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:23.079
incredible um beauty of how David was

00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:26.200
with these student students in such a

00:53:26.200 --> 00:53:28.640
way that

00:53:28.640 --> 00:53:32.280
everyone really came into maybe a shared

00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:34.880
Rous that you could maybe put that

00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:37.760
everybody everybody felt part

00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:43.119
of um felt significant felt part of

00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:44.640
whatever was going on and I'm not doing

00:53:44.640 --> 00:53:46.119
a very good job describing it I'm sort

00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:48.760
of telling the results but I did mention

00:53:48.760 --> 00:53:50.960
that

00:53:54.160 --> 00:53:56.079
too

00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:01.760
you know I I can add one thing I did

00:54:04.160 --> 00:54:08.359
uh bring the popup school with me and

00:54:08.359 --> 00:54:10.480
the part of the popup school I brought

00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:14.520
with me was how often in the last two

00:54:14.520 --> 00:54:19.000
years I've heard you say bonita that the

00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:22.960
questions the children have are the

00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:27.480
doorway into the future that we

00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:32.440
want and the only real intention I had

00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:35.920
that I brought clearly

00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:41.520
was to find a way in the moment

00:54:41.520 --> 00:54:45.319
spontaneously to let them know that they

00:54:45.319 --> 00:54:49.440
were relevant and a pivot point to get

00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:54.079
into that world that we want to live in

00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:55.640
individually

00:54:55.640 --> 00:54:58.559
all 30 of

00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:03.680
them without saying it yeah oh it was it

00:55:03.680 --> 00:55:06.520
came out of

00:55:06.640 --> 00:55:08.640
relationality I let them know that one

00:55:08.640 --> 00:55:10.720
of the things my parents had were

00:55:10.720 --> 00:55:14.280
numbers and uh the system of the Nazis

00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:17.680
was to get rid of the name to to get rid

00:55:17.680 --> 00:55:20.520
of the Dignity of the individual to

00:55:20.520 --> 00:55:24.000
become a number and so I had them speak

00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:25.599
their name

00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:28.680
before they spoke their question and

00:55:28.680 --> 00:55:30.760
feel

00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:34.520
themselves in their question so it was

00:55:34.520 --> 00:55:37.480
fun it was really I mean it was uh

00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:40.799
sacred fun you

00:55:47.799 --> 00:55:50.400
know

00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:53.400
Justin thank you David I was just

00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:54.760
remembering one thing that came up for

00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:57.720
us is that Susan and I are both retired

00:55:57.720 --> 00:55:59.760
and we don't have money issues so that

00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:02.680
takes a lot of things out of play and in

00:56:02.680 --> 00:56:06.559
a way least as I feel it it's like using

00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:08.960
your word I'm an infinite flow of

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:10.599
layered

00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:12.720
biomarkers and they come and they go and

00:56:12.720 --> 00:56:15.599
they do what they want and sometimes I

00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.039
the aperture of my attention affects

00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.599
them and happiness shows up sometimes

00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:23.760
and sometimes it doesn't and who cares

00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:25.680
it's just moving and you sort of go with

00:56:25.680 --> 00:56:27.760
the flow so to speak in any given

00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:29.520
situation

00:56:29.520 --> 00:56:32.480
knowing that where I am attending and

00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:35.400
what I'm feeling what my attention is

00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.920
sensing into

00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:41.520
is not under that's not under my control

00:56:41.520 --> 00:56:45.240
and it's fascinating most of the

00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:56.880
time

00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:23.799
Anna do you have something you wanted to

00:57:23.799 --> 00:57:27.200
say could be a no you can pass

00:57:27.200 --> 00:57:30.680
just seeing

00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:34.079
your

00:57:40.839 --> 00:57:44.000
expression I didn't hear who you asked

00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:47.000
Bita

00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:51.599
Anna I didn't hear my name funny maslo V

00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:53.799
plun okay now I got you

00:57:53.799 --> 00:57:56.799
Bonnie

00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.559
naming the unnamable and when you I'm

00:58:03.559 --> 00:58:06.079
thinking of the knife story that you put

00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:08.520
I don't know what one that was in but

00:58:08.520 --> 00:58:11.520
the knife story when you start exploring

00:58:11.520 --> 00:58:13.799
of what you are and you start cutting

00:58:13.799 --> 00:58:16.920
the things and you want to name it then

00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:20.039
you're not it anymore and I think that's

00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:21.799
where we were going to and and what

00:58:21.799 --> 00:58:24.839
Justin was talking about the biomarkers

00:58:24.839 --> 00:58:27.200
Kevin Kevin was there and Matthew was

00:58:27.200 --> 00:58:28.720
there Matthew had to leave early

00:58:28.720 --> 00:58:30.680
unfortunately

00:58:30.680 --> 00:58:35.760
but we had a Exquisite exploration

00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:41.200
of of to whom am I what and what is

00:58:41.200 --> 00:58:44.280
culture how is culture part of this

00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:46.880
happiness like what is happiness

00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:48.440
actually and I'm thinking of

00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:51.160
sovereignity I'm thinking of what Evo's

00:58:51.160 --> 00:58:54.520
done with um the course he's been part

00:58:54.520 --> 00:58:55.640
of

00:58:55.640 --> 00:58:57.960
I forgot the name of it now I'm sorry

00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:00.920
Evo but you you've done that course and

00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:04.160
I've a couple of years ago and um with

00:59:04.160 --> 00:59:06.880
Alexander biner and U I thought it was

00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:09.119
really cool to get back to this

00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:12.760
Sovereign Place and just to feel this

00:59:12.760 --> 00:59:15.160
it's and it that place has

00:59:15.160 --> 00:59:19.240
biomarkers and that and it's

00:59:19.240 --> 00:59:21.960
not almost like not giving your power

00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:24.799
away to the others and not in it's it's

00:59:24.799 --> 00:59:28.640
like this this place of whereever again

00:59:28.640 --> 00:59:31.319
 I wanted to explain it I can't it's

00:59:31.319 --> 00:59:33.880
unexplainable but I'm trying we had an

00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:37.000
experience here and Kevin would I'm

00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:38.599
think I'm gonna ask Kevin what that

00:59:38.599 --> 00:59:40.400
experience was is that okay if you would

00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:43.920
like to share it Kevin that I'm putting

00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:46.079
you on the spot

00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:48.920
here sure

00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:50.720
yeah

00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:53.760
um I I the thing that sort of came out

00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:55.240
of

00:59:55.240 --> 00:59:59.280
out of it for me was the idea

00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:02.280
of the way that that like we're we're

01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:05.359
talking about attention and attending to

01:00:05.359 --> 01:00:07.280
like there's nothing in the prompt that

01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:09.359
relates to attention but we're talking

01:00:09.359 --> 01:00:11.400
about our attention everybody's

01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:14.039
referencing this concept and what came

01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:18.680
to me was this idea of performance or or

01:00:18.680 --> 01:00:20.640
being the judge of the performance that

01:00:20.640 --> 01:00:22.599
there's a

01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:25.599
judge in

01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:29.000
or let's let's call it an audience and

01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:31.000
when the audience is

01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:33.559
externalized there's no there is no

01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:35.760
sovereignty in a sense you're you're

01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:39.599
you're you're at the whim of something

01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:43.079
that is an other that you're

01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:47.520
not you're questioning that all the time

01:00:47.520 --> 01:00:48.599
you know and that came out of what

01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:50.400
Matthew is saying that that in his

01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:53.440
perception of of of his relationships

01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:56.799
that that that he's that he's got these

01:00:56.799 --> 01:00:59.240
pre presumptions about what's what's

01:00:59.240 --> 01:01:01.440
happening um and he doesn't actually

01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:04.240
know in the communication but these

01:01:04.240 --> 01:01:06.160
limitations end up being like these

01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:09.200
little blocks of well they said that and

01:01:09.200 --> 01:01:10.480
that was the thing they did the last

01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:13.240
time and and it's you're in this you're

01:01:13.240 --> 01:01:14.760
in a realm that it doesn't have

01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:18.400
sovereignty um

01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:21.280
so what came to me was the idea of this

01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:23.440
audience

01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:26.640
where if you're you know if you're a

01:01:26.640 --> 01:01:28.359
performer and you've done performing

01:01:28.359 --> 01:01:30.400
you're you're you have that as an

01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:32.280
automatic thing you're think well how

01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:34.920
how am I doing and this is where stage

01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:36.920
fright comes

01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:40.839
from um and it'll wipe out a career um

01:01:40.839 --> 01:01:43.799
but there's something about the idea

01:01:43.799 --> 01:01:47.319
that you're not performing for yourself

01:01:47.319 --> 01:01:50.359
so you're you're that's not going on and

01:01:50.359 --> 01:01:52.000
you're not performing for somebody else

01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.039
so who are you performing for What what

01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:56.559
is the ultimate audience and the idea

01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:59.760
that the ultimate audience would

01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:02.760
be that ancient idea of the artist

01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:05.880
working for God like that there's an

01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:08.279
external there there's something out

01:02:08.279 --> 01:02:09.680
there that

01:02:09.680 --> 01:02:11.839
that why is it out there because it's

01:02:11.839 --> 01:02:14.359
inside but there's there's a an an

01:02:14.359 --> 01:02:17.079
audience that perceives from within the

01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:20.119
self the the the good you know that can

01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:24.039
already get that understand the direct

01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:26.520
connection with the and I'm using art

01:02:26.520 --> 01:02:29.079
here or performance but the direct

01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:30.559
connection of the performance that

01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:32.400
there's no need for an audience there's

01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:36.880
no need for an a a human audience in a

01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.000
sense because that's it's like a

01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.599
sovereign

01:02:45.359 --> 01:02:47.480
audience that's not

01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:50.480
you if that Mak

01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.599
sense yeah it makes

01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:55.520
sense I mean it does it makes makes

01:02:55.520 --> 01:02:58.520
sense

01:02:59.319 --> 01:03:03.880
um anyone else before I move to

01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:05.570
another

01:03:05.570 --> 01:03:06.880
[Music]

01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:10.839
concept it matalina I just I just have a

01:03:10.839 --> 01:03:15.119
quick question yeah because of your

01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:20.480
experience with animals

01:03:22.720 --> 01:03:26.279
um you know this whole notion of the

01:03:26.279 --> 01:03:32.880
moral um and you did join moral

01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:34.880
animal

01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:38.760
um I guess because I have a resistance

01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:40.119
to the word

01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:42.319
moral you

01:03:42.319 --> 01:03:46.359
know shared it with my group that that's

01:03:46.359 --> 01:03:51.000
not something I reach for as as what I'm

01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.480
looking for but the fact that you

01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:56.000
coupled it with moral

01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:01.039
animal does give me pause

01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:02.640
in

01:04:02.640 --> 01:04:06.000
dismissing that this word which I think

01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:09.760
can so easily be

01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:12.000
weaponized

01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:16.480
um because my aspiration is I guess to

01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:19.319
be a little bit more amphibious between

01:04:19.319 --> 01:04:26.000
whatever might be considered good or bad

01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:28.559
um

01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:34.200
so it would be helpful to me to hear you

01:04:34.200 --> 01:04:37.520
perhaps expand a little bit on joining

01:04:37.520 --> 01:04:40.039
those two

01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:48.480
words first so I'm going to do it in a

01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:53.160
playful circuitous path very unlike

01:04:53.160 --> 01:04:55.799
me

01:04:55.799 --> 01:04:58.760
okay so you and me are gonna play okay

01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:02.760
mad which one which phrase do you

01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:05.680
prefer most or hate the

01:05:05.680 --> 01:05:10.000
least okay okay the moral animal or you

01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:12.319
know as people people the moral animal

01:05:12.319 --> 01:05:15.480
or people the happy

01:05:17.170 --> 01:05:20.409
[Music]

01:05:20.799 --> 01:05:26.079
animal you see where we're going

01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:33.440
well I'm GNA be circuitous too say and

01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:36.799
say that what immediately came to mind

01:05:36.799 --> 01:05:39.400
when we went into the breakout group for

01:05:39.400 --> 01:05:42.440
with your prompt was

01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:47.400
Peter lindberg's post on

01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:49.680
off money

01:05:49.680 --> 01:05:53.720
versus off happiness you know did

01:05:53.720 --> 01:05:57.880
you wait then no but but I I I think I

01:05:57.880 --> 01:05:59.839
can see the connection okay I just want

01:05:59.839 --> 01:06:02.880
to do a visualization everybody just

01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:06.160
think what if all the animals and not

01:06:06.160 --> 01:06:09.000
humans all the other animals on Earth

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:12.039
were happy just think about that and

01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:16.720
what what kind of what kind of image

01:06:16.720 --> 01:06:20.520
what what's the movie that runs in your

01:06:20.799 --> 01:06:25.480
mind it's nice right

01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:29.279
no isn't that nice for

01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:33.599
you yeah no I mean I think that's what

01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:36.680
Peter does is is this off happiness

01:06:36.680 --> 01:06:40.279
I'm tired of being anxious and waiting

01:06:40.279 --> 01:06:43.079
for the off money I'm just GNA have

01:06:43.079 --> 01:06:47.079
 off happiness and you know act from

01:06:47.079 --> 01:06:49.079
that you know you know but off

01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:53.079
happiness is very complex because who

01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:54.880
who you you know you're telling yourself

01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:57.240
to I don't want to I don't really

01:06:57.240 --> 01:06:59.960
want to it makes it too complex it's a

01:06:59.960 --> 01:07:03.000
very simple game off happiness has

01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:05.279
some kind of like you you know

01:07:05.279 --> 01:07:07.200
feeling to it we're just talking about

01:07:07.200 --> 01:07:09.799
happiness animal happiness okay now what

01:07:09.799 --> 01:07:13.960
if every single person on Earth was

01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:17.640
happy to feel the

01:07:18.680 --> 01:07:21.400
same no it feels like a disaster doesn't

01:07:21.400 --> 01:07:24.559
it it's because we have a resistance to

01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:27.640
happiness and this is a problem with our

01:07:27.640 --> 01:07:30.160
moral

01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:35.799
potential in my opinion so let me tell

01:07:35.799 --> 01:07:38.599
you a story so I once was watching

01:07:38.599 --> 01:07:41.799
shinsen young give a presentation at a

01:07:41.799 --> 01:07:43.720
Buddhist geek

01:07:43.720 --> 01:07:49.240
conference and had a big board and he

01:07:49.240 --> 01:07:52.000
said the Buddha was the greatest

01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:55.520
scientist of human happiness

01:07:55.520 --> 01:07:58.799
ever and I was

01:07:58.799 --> 01:08:01.400
like confused like the Buddha is all

01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:03.880
about the suffering the noble truths in

01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:09.559
this and they went on to show that um

01:08:09.559 --> 01:08:11.559
that

01:08:11.559 --> 01:08:13.400
um

01:08:13.400 --> 01:08:16.440
discomfort or unpleasure times

01:08:16.440 --> 01:08:19.480
resistance equals

01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:24.679
suffering and pleasure times

01:08:24.679 --> 01:08:28.080
resistance equals

01:08:28.080 --> 01:08:30.159
suffering

01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:32.679
and then here I don't even know what he

01:08:32.679 --> 01:08:35.440
said and he talked about and I thought

01:08:35.440 --> 01:08:38.359
what and I just spent the rest like 60

01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:41.640
Minutes in my own head thinking about

01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:44.319
being resistance to happiness so as all

01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:48.799
good uh moral people we walk around and

01:08:48.799 --> 01:08:51.719
we really try to reduce our resistance

01:08:51.719 --> 01:08:52.799
to

01:08:52.799 --> 01:08:57.239
suffering but we actually are also need

01:08:57.239 --> 01:09:00.279
to reduce our resistance to

01:09:00.279 --> 01:09:02.839
happiness and I'm not proud to say so

01:09:02.839 --> 01:09:04.600
but when I was thinking

01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:07.480
about being resistant to happiness like

01:09:07.480 --> 01:09:09.920
what is he talking about like I was all

01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:12.520
aroused there was like a lot going on I

01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:14.120
was the first time I actually really

01:09:14.120 --> 01:09:16.480
started to think about this and then a

01:09:16.480 --> 01:09:18.640
little movie played in my head and I

01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:21.480
thought well if people are just happy I

01:09:21.480 --> 01:09:23.040
mean this is the movie that went on in

01:09:23.040 --> 01:09:24.480
my head it was a movie movie so it

01:09:24.480 --> 01:09:26.880
wasn't logical I just saw like a bunch

01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:29.279
of little brown people eating cocaine

01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:32.520
you know coca canes and stuff and this

01:09:32.520 --> 01:09:36.600
was a a movie that was planted in my

01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:39.239
head by watching too many Tarzan movies

01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:42.759
and Colonial movies that happy people

01:09:42.759 --> 01:09:44.719
are people with like rotten teeth

01:09:44.719 --> 01:09:46.400
because they're eating cocaine cocoa

01:09:46.400 --> 01:09:48.040
leaves all

01:09:48.040 --> 01:09:51.799
day uh and I was like that what the

01:09:51.799 --> 01:09:53.920
 is that I mean that was smarter up

01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:55.760
to know that that movie but the movie

01:09:55.760 --> 01:09:58.159
was really deep in my psyche like that's

01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:02.560
if people were happy that's who we would

01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:06.800
be and I I want to submit that a lot of

01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:08.480
moral

01:10:08.480 --> 01:10:11.760
evils uh result because we are resistant

01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:14.040
to

01:10:15.360 --> 01:10:18.280
happiness not all of them there's others

01:10:18.280 --> 01:10:20.600
right but this mon today this session is

01:10:20.600 --> 01:10:22.640
about resisting

01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:24.440
happiness

01:10:24.440 --> 01:10:27.719
so we don't want to equate evil with

01:10:27.719 --> 01:10:32.120
suffering but we need to couple goodness

01:10:32.120 --> 01:10:34.159
to

01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:37.360
happiness because goodness increases the

01:10:37.360 --> 01:10:40.159
joy in God C I think that's exactly what

01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:42.239
I heard you saying like who is it

01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:45.280
for you increase the joy in God that's

01:10:45.280 --> 01:10:48.800
that's that's happiness so we one one of

01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:51.640
the part of the moral animal because we

01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:54.719
want Happy animals you know the moral

01:10:54.719 --> 01:10:56.280
animal is called the moral animal

01:10:56.280 --> 01:10:59.560
because it's morality Beyond culture

01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:02.480
culture us good Protestants and good

01:11:02.480 --> 01:11:04.880
Buddhists and good whatever we've been

01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:07.840
taught to resist

01:11:08.040 --> 01:11:11.760
happiness and happy people are in a

01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:15.880
better position to do good

01:11:16.679 --> 01:11:20.640
acts and I don't mean like stupid happy

01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:22.440
like I'm happy look I got a lot of money

01:11:22.440 --> 01:11:23.640
you know I'm just talking about happy

01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:25.280
happiness like an animal kind of

01:11:25.280 --> 01:11:29.120
Happiness so this is also in this

01:11:29.120 --> 01:11:30.679
chapter

01:11:30.679 --> 01:11:34.199
on the moral

01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:38.360
animal and David said it like there what

01:11:38.360 --> 01:11:40.280
did you say it was fun he was talking

01:11:40.280 --> 01:11:42.560
about aits and having numbers tattooed

01:11:42.560 --> 01:11:47.760
on you and it was fun because they go

01:11:52.560 --> 01:11:56.440
together in a perfect world I think I

01:11:56.440 --> 01:11:59.760
said it was sacred play play play was

01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:02.000
the word

01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:05.000
yeah sacred fun is what you said yeah he

01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:06.239
said

01:12:06.239 --> 01:12:09.679
fun I got the

01:12:09.679 --> 01:12:13.159
recording I'll have him go fun fun fun

01:12:13.159 --> 01:12:17.360
fun or play play play

01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:21.440
play but anyways this is this is more of

01:12:21.440 --> 01:12:25.080
what we need to remind ourselves

01:12:25.080 --> 01:12:29.080
about uh yeah our revisionist

01:12:29.080 --> 01:12:30.400
revisionism you know we're good

01:12:30.400 --> 01:12:32.679
Calvinists we're good

01:12:32.679 --> 01:12:36.159
Protestants uh we're good marxists these

01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:40.679
all these these good isms resist

01:12:40.679 --> 01:12:43.800
happiness um and I you know in the ma a

01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:45.679
lot of this is in is based on the

01:12:45.679 --> 01:12:47.159
Master's course and we used to have a

01:12:47.159 --> 01:12:48.840
module called genuine happiness

01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:50.199
creativity and

01:12:50.199 --> 01:12:52.719
flow and this notion of genuine

01:12:52.719 --> 01:12:55.080
happiness but but it was in there

01:12:55.080 --> 01:12:57.440
because of this experience I had

01:12:57.440 --> 01:13:01.600
realizing that all that work i' done and

01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:05.679
what what we're supposed to be

01:13:05.679 --> 01:13:07.800
happy

01:13:07.800 --> 01:13:13.120
what that's it no you're kidding me

01:13:13.120 --> 01:13:16.880
really um so you can you can imagine

01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:18.840
maybe between now and if you come back

01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:22.480
on Saturday how you can improve the good

01:13:22.480 --> 01:13:24.360
in the internal relation ations of both

01:13:24.360 --> 01:13:27.800
of you and increase happiness overall or

01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:32.960
Joy or sacred play or this sense

01:13:32.960 --> 01:13:38.120
of that it's life that life

01:13:38.120 --> 01:13:42.480
is not only precarious and precious and

01:13:42.480 --> 01:13:46.040
suffering but this element happiness how

01:13:46.040 --> 01:13:48.800
can we get you know we're very greedy in

01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:50.760
this class we want all that all at the

01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:52.360
same

01:13:52.360 --> 01:13:55.360
time

01:13:58.719 --> 01:14:01.920
yeah I feel like saying like you

01:14:01.920 --> 01:14:06.600
do whoa this is a great

01:14:06.679 --> 01:14:10.159
Insight yeah I I

01:14:10.159 --> 01:14:12.679
mean it landed on me and of course he

01:14:12.679 --> 01:14:14.400
wasn't even really that was just a

01:14:14.400 --> 01:14:16.880
little piece Preamble then he went on to

01:14:16.880 --> 01:14:19.360
say God knows what but I was just lost

01:14:19.360 --> 01:14:21.360
in like

01:14:21.360 --> 01:14:26.080
what like the depths of my

01:14:26.080 --> 01:14:29.280
serage or

01:14:30.080 --> 01:14:32.440
whatever all right I think I'm just

01:14:32.440 --> 01:14:33.280
gonna

01:14:33.280 --> 01:14:36.560
end guys are not because someone just to

01:14:36.560 --> 01:14:38.880
the house and thank you so much for

01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:42.320
playing with this round and and uh and

01:14:42.320 --> 01:14:44.800
we still have time to wrap it up uh and

01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:47.840
get to more sessions so uh thank you

01:14:47.840 --> 01:14:51.159
very much I'm glad it makes you

01:14:52.280 --> 01:14:55.280
happy



## Cohort 5

00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:13.120
okay okay we're getting close close to

00:00:13.120 --> 00:00:15.199
the end of

00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:19.960
something um so this is the fifth out of

00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:23.840
six um sessions on the moral animal I

00:00:23.840 --> 00:00:28.080
think it's been a really good session uh

00:00:28.400 --> 00:00:30.599
module um so

00:00:30.599 --> 00:00:33.160
let's

00:00:33.160 --> 00:00:37.160
um open the discussion until like 10

00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:38.800
minutes quarter after hour unless

00:00:38.800 --> 00:00:41.520
there's more to talk about before we go

00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:45.039
into the prompt for our breakout

00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:49.199
rooms um we have one more prompt today

00:00:49.199 --> 00:00:52.359
and we'll probably just do a recap um on

00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:57.039
the on the last day so um

00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:02.399
yeah um last week we looked at uh so far

00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:04.640
we've done some

00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.560
amazing uh things like decouple values

00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:12.040
from morals and evil from suffering and

00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.479
we looked at the role of happiness and

00:01:15.479 --> 00:01:19.680
in in and how it relates to promoting

00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.400
the potential for the good um all these

00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:25.119
things

00:01:25.119 --> 00:01:29.079
um yeah can be can seem very surprising

00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.560
uh it's surprising that it's surprising

00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:33.920
in in a certain way right

00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:37.040
so um yeah surprising that it's

00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.920
surprising to us on on

00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:44.000
examination um yeah so let's just leave

00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:46.640
that pin that there and see if you have

00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:49.320
questions or comments or uh what they're

00:01:49.320 --> 00:01:52.360
surprised about or um maybe some

00:01:52.360 --> 00:01:56.000
insights they've had before we go

00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.840
forward

00:02:02.880 --> 00:02:06.600
Bonnie can you talk more about the will

00:02:06.600 --> 00:02:09.080
to power and the will to love and the

00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:12.239
relationship between the

00:02:12.480 --> 00:02:16.879
two okay um that's a very good question

00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:18.560
and

00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.440
um the one of the points that I was

00:02:22.440 --> 00:02:25.640
making is that has the same

00:02:25.640 --> 00:02:28.480
biomarker in other words the will to

00:02:28.480 --> 00:02:30.680
love isn't some kind kind

00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:32.200
of

00:02:32.200 --> 00:02:36.879
sentimental or um it would have the same

00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.280
it would be very similar in its

00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:43.080
biomarker uh from the in in chiong it

00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:44.720
comes from the lower

00:02:44.720 --> 00:02:47.760
Donan um

00:02:47.760 --> 00:02:50.760
and

00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:57.159
um and I and I I said that because we're

00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.840
so you know we're so trapped into having

00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.640
will turn into Power or status or power

00:03:04.640 --> 00:03:10.000
over etc etc that we have to somehow

00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.400
learn to harness the embodied aspect of

00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:18.120
it so that we can be powerful lovers you

00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:20.360
know powerful we can Will to love

00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.360
because the way we're just we're we're

00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.280
um we're describing so for example if

00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.120
you were um and these are all St types

00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:31.879
but it's to make the point about the

00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:33.560
distinctions we're making so if you were

00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.319
like a social justice Warrior all that

00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.720
could be just driven by um

00:03:39.720 --> 00:03:42.760
resentment and uh resentment and

00:03:42.760 --> 00:03:45.920
oppression and blah blah blah blah um

00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:48.239
and so those are those are arous arousal

00:03:48.239 --> 00:03:50.599
States but will is has something to do

00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:51.799
with

00:03:51.799 --> 00:03:56.599
like you know these these you can set

00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:58.680
yourself

00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:00.959
um

00:04:00.959 --> 00:04:03.480
it's not a Rea it's not reactionary it's

00:04:03.480 --> 00:04:05.360
not triggered it's like understanding

00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.200
that you can be a first

00:04:07.200 --> 00:04:13.400
mover um so it's not a you know uh it's

00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.680
not tip Fort it's not like you're

00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:17.479
responding to something that's been done

00:04:17.479 --> 00:04:22.360
for you it's like I'm going to um

00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:24.160
experiment

00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.040
um with this

00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.960
superpower and I'm just going to to you

00:04:30.960 --> 00:04:33.479
know pick myself up every time it it

00:04:33.479 --> 00:04:35.840
fails and just keep keep at it sort of

00:04:35.840 --> 00:04:38.639
thing um so some kind of determination

00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:44.000
let's say um and a lot of times these

00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.160
the we're so suspicious of the embodi

00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.880
part because it usually or it's so

00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:51.080
closely associated in our culture and

00:04:51.080 --> 00:04:54.680
even our own habits with it goes on to

00:04:54.680 --> 00:05:01.560
want to assert power versus love so um

00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:07.600
that's kind of what I was trying to kind

00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:12.759
of um just make sure we recognized

00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:18.080
that um it for me it kind of connects to

00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:21.400
that experience we had with the four

00:05:21.400 --> 00:05:23.680
postures

00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.520
meditation

00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:30.360
where you were asking us to go in but

00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.520
also to contact to look at what do we

00:05:33.520 --> 00:05:36.120
really oh yeah what do we really want

00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.319
yes produ the

00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:40.919
biomarker yeah that

00:05:40.919 --> 00:05:44.000
people uh they reported feeling like an

00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.160
animal they wanted it um yeah that

00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:52.759
that's that's the will

00:05:54.919 --> 00:05:58.479
um I forgot about

00:05:58.479 --> 00:06:01.479
that

00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:04.160
and then that in

00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.280
between like tragedy of Will and the the

00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:12.199
crisis of

00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:16.120
will you were talking about oh right um

00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.360
yeah so in the modern era era it's a

00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.080
tragedy of will because it's tragic that

00:06:22.080 --> 00:06:25.440
it's all put toward power and control so

00:06:25.440 --> 00:06:28.720
we have these you know the tragedy of

00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.759
the world that we've created from that

00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:33.440
but then in the postmodern because of

00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:36.560
this thing I just talked about like like

00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.120
um

00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:43.160
um we don't you know good people people

00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.240
that could yeah people that could be

00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:48.360
good uh suspect their own power of

00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.880
willing um and and they're confused and

00:06:51.880 --> 00:06:57.840
and and so we we that's arousal energy

00:06:57.840 --> 00:07:00.080
has to go somewhere so my claim is it

00:07:00.080 --> 00:07:02.319
goes into all this like psychopomp and

00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.120
over psychologizing the self and over

00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:10.240
psychologizing uh yeah um instead of

00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.960
just doing something about

00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:15.000
something which is what we're going to

00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:22.080
talk about today um you know uh so um

00:07:22.080 --> 00:07:23.960
the you know so I say the psyche is

00:07:23.960 --> 00:07:26.360
where the will goes to die uh people

00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.639
that spend all their time blaming and

00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:30.840
trying to figure out their trauma and

00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:33.319
this they don't they never get around to

00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.720
you know they're kind of caught in this

00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:37.960
this impotent kind

00:07:37.960 --> 00:07:41.360
of uh space or

00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.919
something so um again these are

00:07:43.919 --> 00:07:46.319
stereotypes but they think they they

00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.680
could be

00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.360
helpful thank

00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:55.360
you

00:07:57.280 --> 00:08:01.240
Charlie so still feel like a newbie here

00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:04.440
and um don't quite understand the flow

00:08:04.440 --> 00:08:08.440
but um on Thursday I was in a breakout

00:08:08.440 --> 00:08:11.560
with Justin and Susan and

00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.280
afterwards um I posed a question but

00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:17.879
there was an awful lot of sharing from

00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.759
all the breakouts and so it never did

00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:22.440
get addressed and so I was wondering if

00:08:22.440 --> 00:08:24.960
you could specifically talk

00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:27.360
about whether you're

00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:32.599
using happiness and the good as synonyms

00:08:32.599 --> 00:08:35.039
and the fact that you framed our

00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.800
breakout prompt as what stands in the

00:08:38.800 --> 00:08:42.560
way or limits you're you know achieving

00:08:42.560 --> 00:08:46.080
happiness versus what stands in the way

00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.320
of manifesting good

00:08:50.560 --> 00:08:55.839
um yeah this a good question so um

00:08:55.839 --> 00:08:59.240
um so what stands I I I would say that

00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:03.279
that they are um

00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.880
um close they're not the same thing okay

00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:09.519
so we're talking about increasing the

00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.200
potential for the good inside all

00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.160
parties um concerned okay so this this

00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:21.079
excludes shaming someone to the point of

00:09:21.079 --> 00:09:22.600
resentment

00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:25.279
because chances are they're not you

00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:27.160
haven't increased the potential for the

00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:31.880
good and you will find that

00:09:31.880 --> 00:09:37.360
um um when you've done that um when

00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:39.160
you've increased the potential to the

00:09:39.160 --> 00:09:43.560
good you tend to increase people's

00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:47.560
happiness um there they seem to be now

00:09:47.560 --> 00:09:51.120
so what do I mean by that if you are

00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.519
sitting with someone and they're

00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:57.240
dying see happiness is not an affect

00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.839
okay so if I'm done dying and I'm sad or

00:10:00.839 --> 00:10:04.120
I'm grieving because someone's dying and

00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:07.839
I can be happy that you're there with

00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:12.920
me right if I'm angry at some state of

00:10:12.920 --> 00:10:16.839
the world I can be you know happy that I

00:10:16.839 --> 00:10:20.200
have a chance to do something about

00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:23.160
it um

00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:27.440
so and then this also ties into the will

00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.839
because if you're

00:10:29.839 --> 00:10:30.880
if

00:10:30.880 --> 00:10:35.800
you're happiness and joy is like a vivra

00:10:35.800 --> 00:10:36.800
gives you

00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:41.279
energy um

00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.040
and those are some of

00:10:45.040 --> 00:10:48.079
the kind of connections that I that I

00:10:48.079 --> 00:10:51.399
was hoping people would think about um

00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:54.200
and the rever and and again I'm just

00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:57.000
trying to open our minds because we tend

00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.360
to think about

00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.800
suffering is always the case for evil

00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:04.760
and this is not

00:11:04.760 --> 00:11:08.200
true and um we always tend to think

00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.240
about having to do the good thing won't

00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.880
make us happy like what will make us

00:11:13.880 --> 00:11:15.720
happy having more money in a bigger

00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.399
house and and that and yet we know it's

00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.480
not the good thing it's not really that

00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.680
good you know what I'm saying we there

00:11:22.680 --> 00:11:24.240
it's like the things that are coupled up

00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.279
in our language and and in our in our

00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:32.120
discourse are kind of all screwed

00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:37.120
up um why do people not want

00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.360
to um

00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:43.079
um why do

00:11:43.079 --> 00:11:46.880
people not want to go backwards let's

00:11:46.880 --> 00:11:48.320
say during a

00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:51.160
financial uh recession because they

00:11:51.160 --> 00:11:52.560
think if they go backwards they're not

00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:54.959
going to be happy or something or you

00:11:54.959 --> 00:11:57.600
can't be happy being happy is always

00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.560
going forward but always going forward

00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:02.959
in this culture tends to destroy the

00:12:02.959 --> 00:12:05.680
Earth faster so these things are not

00:12:05.680 --> 00:12:12.000
properly ordered I think um and so um

00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.399
I'm talking about real happiness not you

00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.720
know pseudo happiness like I I go

00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.560
shopping makes me happy for a second and

00:12:20.560 --> 00:12:23.160
then I'm depressed

00:12:23.160 --> 00:12:28.040
so um shenzen young says that our

00:12:28.040 --> 00:12:30.800
problems one of our problems is is that

00:12:30.800 --> 00:12:35.279
we don't fully experience happiness um

00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.680
so so we're never actually happy we're

00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:39.920
always trying to be happy because when

00:12:39.920 --> 00:12:43.680
we're happy we don't let that permeate

00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:46.839
and and flush ourselves with happiness

00:12:46.839 --> 00:12:48.880
is that the resistance you were talking

00:12:48.880 --> 00:12:51.040
about yes the resistance to happiness so

00:12:51.040 --> 00:12:52.600
it turns out a lot of people that are

00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.120
very interested in being morally good

00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.839
are resisted to

00:12:57.839 --> 00:12:59.920
happiness

00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:04.120
it seems to be uh something in that

00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.480
seeps into us and if we're resistant to

00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:08.360
happiness then we don't recharge

00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.440
ourselves and there's no happiness is

00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:15.160
not an obstacle to to doing the good uh

00:13:15.160 --> 00:13:17.000
it's just it's actually the opposite but

00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.279
neither is suffering an obstacle to

00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:23.480
doing the uh doing the good um so I'm

00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:25.480
not trying to make one big General

00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:28.000
conclusion I'm just trying to show

00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:29.880
people that

00:13:29.880 --> 00:13:34.199
um that we package words and meanings in

00:13:34.199 --> 00:13:37.000
ways that it would surprise us to see

00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:40.079
that it doesn't really work that way um

00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:43.240
one could say that the trying to control

00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.839
the suffering in in suffering that is

00:13:47.839 --> 00:13:51.279
part of being alive is produces a lot of

00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:53.720
bad um

00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:57.759
so yeah I was just trying to open

00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.600
up showing that these terms that seem

00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:02.720
like we all they always come together

00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:05.160
they're not really upon closer

00:14:05.160 --> 00:14:07.800
examination there's there's a something

00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:09.920
a lot more nuanced going

00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:12.920
on so that brings up I can't help but

00:14:12.920 --> 00:14:14.839
follow up with what you just said there

00:14:14.839 --> 00:14:17.360
near the end a a lot of people who are

00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.920
interested in being moral are resistant

00:14:20.920 --> 00:14:24.519
to happiness so is that a morality

00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:26.600
that's sort of at odds with what we're

00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:28.880
trying to learn about the moral animal

00:14:28.880 --> 00:14:31.199
so exactly it's not that that makes you

00:14:31.199 --> 00:14:33.920
immoral but it takes away from your

00:14:33.920 --> 00:14:37.079
ability to increase the production of

00:14:37.079 --> 00:14:39.120
the good the potential of the

00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.360
good here's something if here's another

00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.240
way to put it if I want to teach people

00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:47.279
to whatever I'm trying to teach them in

00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.320
this case I'm not trying to really teach

00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.800
you to be moral but to examine morality

00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:55.320
if I want people to keep coming to me as

00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:57.800
a teacher I have to have something they

00:14:57.800 --> 00:14:59.560
want

00:14:59.560 --> 00:15:01.600
and if I'm a

00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.000
depressed

00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.079
angry sad resentment per why would

00:15:08.079 --> 00:15:09.920
anyone want to learn from someone like

00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:12.360
that the best teachers are liberated in

00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.199
the sense that they're they they have

00:15:14.199 --> 00:15:16.000
joy and they have

00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.680
happiness um they have uh more life even

00:15:20.680 --> 00:15:21.560
if

00:15:21.560 --> 00:15:23.800
they're

00:15:23.800 --> 00:15:26.440
um even if they're like I have friends

00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:29.160
that are really really big into looking

00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:31.720
at Shadow and negative energy and so a

00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:33.240
lot of what they deal with is really the

00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.199
dark side but they're they're Lively and

00:15:37.199 --> 00:15:42.279
they're happy in a certain way um so um

00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.360
I think that happiness is a

00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:51.040
superpower and uh it's

00:15:51.199 --> 00:15:53.360
it's you know someone that's really

00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.880
happy doesn't take put on a

00:15:55.880 --> 00:15:59.120
suicide you know like genuine alive

00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:03.440
happiness um and so I would but many

00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.560
people who want to be good people and

00:16:06.560 --> 00:16:10.079
really don't want to contribute to evil

00:16:10.079 --> 00:16:13.639
and they are resisting to

00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.560
happiness and that that diminishes their

00:16:16.560 --> 00:16:20.560
ability to uh be successful I would

00:16:20.560 --> 00:16:23.199
say thank you I mean as far as we can

00:16:23.199 --> 00:16:26.160
see you know like Jesus who went to the

00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:27.880
cross and everything but in his and he

00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:30.680
knew he was he was kind of he had a lot

00:16:30.680 --> 00:16:32.600
of friends and he's you know he wasn't

00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:36.000
judgmental and he was happy in a in in a

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.279
certain sense you know not stupid happy

00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.880
but he was happy to have nothing and

00:16:41.880 --> 00:16:43.680
still have just friends or something

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:46.079
something like that and and when you

00:16:46.079 --> 00:16:48.360
look at I mean I I think that word

00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.639
happiness just threw people off last

00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.720
time but if you look at what what you

00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.519
know if I had a lot of money more money

00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:59.040
I mean this is how it plays out in my

00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:01.319
my life if I had a lot more money so

00:17:01.319 --> 00:17:02.920
things that I wanted to do were easier

00:17:02.920 --> 00:17:04.520
to do I would just do more of what I'm

00:17:04.520 --> 00:17:07.319
doing now and then I realize that the

00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.760
things that still hang me up that are in

00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:13.880
the way of happiness I would take them

00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:15.520
with me you know I mean they're things

00:17:15.520 --> 00:17:18.079
that I have to resolve in myself they're

00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:25.160
not external things and so um yeah

00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.400
so

00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:40.919
another way to put it is how whether or

00:17:40.919 --> 00:17:44.039
not um another way to describe happiness

00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.679
this is kind of a Buddhist way is you

00:17:46.679 --> 00:17:48.440
know how we were saying that the ego

00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:50.840
puts a positive and negative veilance on

00:17:50.840 --> 00:17:52.720
things relative to

00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.600
yourself um

00:17:55.600 --> 00:17:58.679
so if you stop putting positive positive

00:17:58.679 --> 00:18:00.880
and negative valances on things and

00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:02.840
you're just curious about what is

00:18:02.840 --> 00:18:05.400
arising you will be much

00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.320
happier because

00:18:07.320 --> 00:18:11.400
everything that arises or that comes up

00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:14.000
is a potential to learn something to

00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.240
understand more uh to to

00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:22.440
yeah to get deeper into the fabric of

00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.159
life

00:18:25.159 --> 00:18:27.559
so um that could be a definition of

00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:29.480
Happiness it's a definition of of not

00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:30.679
having

00:18:30.679 --> 00:18:35.520
negative uh responses to what

00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:38.880
is they're all good questions and and

00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.880
you're not a newbie I I the the the

00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.679
prompts are meant to be ambiguous so

00:18:45.679 --> 00:18:47.640
lots of different questions and stuff

00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.280
come up and we only have what 45 minutes

00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:53.240
they could you could do that we could

00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.240
talk as a group around that one question

00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.600
for two or three days and really mine it

00:18:57.600 --> 00:18:59.520
so yeah

00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:03.039
yeah thanks for the questions

00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:05.640
Justin I have a question about

00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:09.080
will it seems to me like nearly all of

00:19:09.080 --> 00:19:12.840
my behavior falls into the range of

00:19:12.840 --> 00:19:15.080
bvi's relevance realization all this

00:19:15.080 --> 00:19:16.600
stuff happens much of which I'm not

00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:19.320
conscious of and then there's a pull or

00:19:19.320 --> 00:19:21.120
a feeling or a sense or an intuition

00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:23.960
that pulls me in one way and then

00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.600
there's is this reasonable in society do

00:19:26.600 --> 00:19:29.400
this make sense here can I do what I

00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.799
feel like doing and so all that's mostly

00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:34.360
automated but there are times when it

00:19:34.360 --> 00:19:36.440
comes where I have to make a decision

00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:38.640
there you know is this reasonable in

00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.679
this situation or should I go with my

00:19:40.679 --> 00:19:46.559
gut but on extremely rare

00:19:46.600 --> 00:19:49.520
instances when I have the reason and the

00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:51.799
Intuition or the gut feeling there's no

00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:53.640
pulling either direction there's no

00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.360
preference and really at that moment all

00:19:56.360 --> 00:19:59.000
I can say is I choose because I choose

00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.280
period now it seems like a very clean

00:20:02.280 --> 00:20:05.440
unadulterated will that's different and

00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.480
a clean choice so how do you use the

00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.360
word will with related to that example

00:20:12.360 --> 00:20:14.720
and

00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:19.720
choice um so schopenhauer said famously

00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.159
you know he wrote the world as will and

00:20:23.159 --> 00:20:27.159
representation he said I can I can

00:20:27.159 --> 00:20:29.720
want I can

00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:31.880
choose

00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:35.799
uh I can want what I can what I will but

00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:38.440
I can't will that I

00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:45.039
will um so choice is

00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:50.200
is more in okay in

00:20:52.120 --> 00:20:55.360
alignment you can so will comes up and

00:20:55.360 --> 00:20:56.679
then you could

00:20:56.679 --> 00:20:59.480
choose um

00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:03.640
not to follow that will but that doesn't

00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:05.320
mean it goes

00:21:05.320 --> 00:21:10.600
away and what you need to do is

00:21:10.600 --> 00:21:13.960
understand what its meaning and

00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:17.360
purposes um

00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:20.200
so I mean this gets kind of very

00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:24.000
esoteric but

00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:28.760
um it's a matter

00:21:28.760 --> 00:21:32.760
of if you're interested in cultivating a

00:21:32.760 --> 00:21:33.270
lot

00:21:33.270 --> 00:21:36.000
[Music]

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.480
more will so like I know how to put this

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:44.400
so there's a there's a post I did in

00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.200
under sagehood that talks about when you

00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:50.919
first start out you're very active and

00:21:50.919 --> 00:21:52.360
it's very

00:21:52.360 --> 00:21:55.840
effortful and then um you can do

00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:58.159
different practices you can learn a lot

00:21:58.159 --> 00:22:00.000
about spacious

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.720
choice and Things

00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.919
become less effortful but you end up

00:22:06.919 --> 00:22:10.559
doing less action and then you also need

00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.480
to get a grips on like what is really

00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.039
happening and this can take you into the

00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.559
depths of Despair and you can feel very

00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:23.640
claustrophobic um but if you

00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.520
really uh meditate on what is actually

00:22:27.520 --> 00:22:28.799
happening

00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.840
and and like the Zen people they they

00:22:31.840 --> 00:22:34.320
they meditate on corpses that rot in

00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.960
front of them and if you

00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.880
really are with what is actually

00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.640
happening in the world um that can get

00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.520
quite claustrophobic so you have to do a

00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:48.039
lot more spacious Choice meditation but

00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:50.880
together if you do them together you you

00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.840
end up becoming much more active in the

00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:56.480
world but it's

00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.679
effortless so

00:22:58.679 --> 00:23:00.919
um in

00:23:00.919 --> 00:23:05.279
the so combined you're able to really

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.000
really really really want to change some

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.080
of these things that are unacceptable

00:23:11.080 --> 00:23:13.080
from a moral standpoint they're

00:23:13.080 --> 00:23:15.159
absolutely

00:23:15.159 --> 00:23:17.520
unacceptable um

00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:21.720
and that kind of energy can get all

00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.880
Haywire if you

00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:27.440
don't if you can't uh control your

00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.880
resent M and and your blame and you're

00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.039
this and that and Tit for Tat and stuff

00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.760
like that so the will is the is the

00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:39.000
process of

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.360
cultivating um a lot of

00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:47.960
energy uh to to um increase the

00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:51.159
potential for the good in the world um

00:23:51.159 --> 00:23:53.440
and really be serious about it you need

00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:56.840
a lot of energy you need a lot of energy

00:23:56.840 --> 00:24:01.440
to be causally effective in the world in

00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:03.000
this

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.919
instance and

00:24:05.919 --> 00:24:11.720
um and then you feel like a crazy animal

00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.960
to um you just feel like you're GNA

00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.720
spend every last second of your life

00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:20.760
working on this problem you'll do

00:24:20.760 --> 00:24:23.120
something like you

00:24:23.120 --> 00:24:27.159
know you just you just are like an

00:24:27.159 --> 00:24:30.000
animal with a scent you have so much

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:31.320
energy you're going to wake up the next

00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:32.720
day you're going to have more energy

00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:37.159
just to work on it and

00:24:37.159 --> 00:24:39.559
um that would be

00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:42.559
cultivating uh

00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:47.039
will um and I think that certain

00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.679
meditations um you know some people are

00:24:50.679 --> 00:24:54.159
here to teach and be more expert in

00:24:54.159 --> 00:24:57.520
cultivating spaceless Choice uh some

00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:01.000
people people um spend a lot more time

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.679
look at suu like he he wants to his

00:25:03.679 --> 00:25:05.760
whole mission at Maple is to preserve

00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:07.559
life on Earth it drives he's like a

00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:09.799
crazy maniac whatever it takes this is

00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:12.720
what he's going to do I would say that's

00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.080
that's really down down in the what is

00:25:17.080 --> 00:25:21.039
category um but will comes from when you

00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:22.039
look

00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.679
at what is actually the case and you

00:25:26.679 --> 00:25:28.919
just

00:25:28.919 --> 00:25:32.000
you you stop being sad I mean you are

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.000
sad you stop wanting to just ignore it

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.200
or whatever and you just

00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.279
start something comes over you and you

00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.120
you you it's

00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:45.520
unacceptable it's unacceptable that the

00:25:45.520 --> 00:25:48.360
world is like that P

00:25:48.360 --> 00:25:52.520
stop uh and navigating that is tricky

00:25:52.520 --> 00:25:54.360
because like I said we don't want to be

00:25:54.360 --> 00:25:56.039
claustrophobic we don't want to turn

00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:58.799
into resentment we don't want to

00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:02.039
but but if you want also to build that

00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.039
muscle that

00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.720
willpower um then it's then then that's

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.880
what the will what the will

00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.679
is they given that I'll just say I don't

00:26:15.679 --> 00:26:17.520
know that I had that kind of will power

00:26:17.520 --> 00:26:20.200
I don't I don't feel like it given

00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:21.480
moment but it also brought up a

00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:23.520
different not just that clean choice I

00:26:23.520 --> 00:26:25.640
was talking about but there are choices

00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:29.559
that are easy like when Ria put up that

00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:32.159
Retreat she was doing in Belgium I read

00:26:32.159 --> 00:26:35.000
the thing I go oh I'm going

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.159
yeah there wasn't even a choice to be

00:26:37.159 --> 00:26:40.039
made in that particular case yeah I

00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:42.440
would say and that's like the kind of

00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:48.760
that's a kind of effortless Choice um

00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.279
um I don't know yeah those two Choice

00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.279
there two two choices feel very very

00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.480
different yeah yeah

00:27:04.840 --> 00:27:07.360
okay I think that you know the word that

00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:09.799
comes in terms of the cultivating the

00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.279
will is

00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.039
is you know I call this a voluntary

00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:17.159
obligation you make a

00:27:17.159 --> 00:27:19.960
vow um and

00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.880
then it's it's so like when you get

00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:26.240
married it's a vow that's called a vow

00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.240
right and then when the hits the

00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:33.120
fan you you go through it you have to

00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:35.080
have this stamina to go through it and

00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:38.159
so if you make a voluntary obligation to

00:27:38.159 --> 00:27:43.360
end Hunger in the world or you know

00:27:45.120 --> 00:27:48.159
these then you're going to go through

00:27:48.159 --> 00:27:51.159
that process whether you you know the

00:27:51.159 --> 00:27:53.600
choices

00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:57.240
are in sync with your mood or not I

00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:59.840
means sometimes it's it's very confusing

00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:02.399
so that that's where the will comes in

00:28:02.399 --> 00:28:05.960
you just it's a little bit

00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:08.799
like now we're talking about behaviors

00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:10.120
in the moral

00:28:10.120 --> 00:28:13.799
realm uh get close to being like the

00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:16.279
saint you know like only

00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:20.799
Saints only Saints are up to it uh

00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.519
interestingly I heard on uh a podcast

00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.080
Mark and car the econom E economics

00:28:27.080 --> 00:28:30.919
econom and they were talking about Hamas

00:28:30.919 --> 00:28:33.600
and uh Israel and they said the same

00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:35.480
thing that we did a couple times back

00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:39.240
they're like you know Israel should just

00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:43.000
he said there's in no way in no real

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.120
world is this going to happen but if

00:28:45.120 --> 00:28:48.399
Israel were actually to do the right and

00:28:48.399 --> 00:28:51.480
practical thing they would start

00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:54.000
rebuilding you know Gaza start you know

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.440
bringing all this Aid and building Aid

00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:58.000
and

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.519
um but that would be you'd have to have

00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.600
a tremendous will as the head of Israel

00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:04.640
to do

00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.000
that it's the right thing to do and it

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.399
requires a huge amount of will to do

00:29:11.399 --> 00:29:14.200
that so it seems to me that you're

00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:15.159
saying

00:29:15.159 --> 00:29:20.039
that choice can amplify will but Choice

00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:24.840
can all also create will

00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:29.320
yeah

00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:31.320
there's something tricky about it

00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:34.240
because there's also a different

00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:38.039
identity you know like

00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:41.039
like

00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.320
there's there's a re acknowledgment that

00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:55.200
I am going to do this um unless

00:29:56.320 --> 00:29:57.880
of

00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:00.039
yeah there's there's a certainly this

00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:01.399
taste of

00:30:01.399 --> 00:30:03.799
choice um and I think the taste of

00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:05.519
choice is always best if you have

00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.159
experimental attitude because whenever

00:30:07.159 --> 00:30:08.640
you go at something like that and you

00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.440
have a real choice and you're really you

00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.000
have to you want to take advantage of

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:15.320
that but you have to have an

00:30:15.320 --> 00:30:17.760
experimental attitude and really look at

00:30:17.760 --> 00:30:19.640
the feedback because you might actually

00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:24.240
be narcissistic and very very very

00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.480
wrong it it's very hard sometimes to

00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:28.559
tell the

00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.600
difference what just occurred to me is

00:30:30.600 --> 00:30:33.039
that um when I got married which is a

00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:36.279
long time ago I um I was absolutely

00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:37.760
clear about what I was doing but there's

00:30:37.760 --> 00:30:40.679
something about making a declaration in

00:30:40.679 --> 00:30:43.679
the space of all those people holding my

00:30:43.679 --> 00:30:45.000
will for

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.799
me that I felt like a different person

00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:49.279
next day even though we had been living

00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.799
together for a

00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:55.360
while and let me say this we that's also

00:30:55.360 --> 00:30:58.159
a very good observation

00:30:58.159 --> 00:31:01.519
um will is required when you're trying

00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:05.039
to go counter to your culture right so

00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:06.840
when you have all this community around

00:31:06.840 --> 00:31:08.320
you and you're within this great

00:31:08.320 --> 00:31:12.080
Community that's one thing that can but

00:31:12.080 --> 00:31:15.120
when you're in Israel and you want to go

00:31:15.120 --> 00:31:17.880
counter to your culture it requires a

00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:20.679
huge amount of personal will and that's

00:31:20.679 --> 00:31:24.159
that maybe that's the thing we're uh

00:31:24.159 --> 00:31:26.679
we're really flushing out here um so

00:31:26.679 --> 00:31:31.799
these of like um of you know sitting on

00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:33.799
the first seat of the bus or these

00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:35.960
things that

00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:40.240
are not only not supported by a culture

00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:42.880
or group that's supporting you but you

00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.200
have to break out of it and that's when

00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:46.480
you need to

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:52.480
cultivate uh this personal eye that

00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:55.880
uh that it has this willpower yeah

00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.159
that's a really good point

00:32:02.639 --> 00:32:06.080
great good distinctions

00:32:09.679 --> 00:32:13.639
Matt hey h how you feeling today Matt

00:32:13.639 --> 00:32:17.240
good yeah I don't know hanging in there

00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.440
I

00:32:19.600 --> 00:32:21.320
guess

00:32:21.320 --> 00:32:24.279
um pretty

00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:28.880
good I guess I was thinking

00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.080
like and I feel like this often happens

00:32:32.080 --> 00:32:34.440
with like my questions is I'll have a

00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:37.320
question and then people will talk and

00:32:37.320 --> 00:32:40.600
my question will kind of get answered or

00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:42.399
I'll ask the question and when I ask it

00:32:42.399 --> 00:32:44.320
I'll have it answered

00:32:44.320 --> 00:32:46.279
but

00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:50.480
um it just kind of occurred to me

00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.240
like it seems a lot of this stuff we're

00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:56.039
talking about

00:32:56.039 --> 00:33:00.200
and even like from past experiences I've

00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.320
had it it can be very tricky

00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:09.080
and like how much of this stuff in other

00:33:09.080 --> 00:33:13.639
cultures whatever is actually taught and

00:33:13.639 --> 00:33:17.080
guided because it feels like in the

00:33:17.080 --> 00:33:18.880
culture I'm from

00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:23.240
there aren't a lot of guides or teachers

00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:25.559
helping and except for by example

00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:27.519
perhaps like your family

00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:30.600
just seeing how they work and operate

00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:33.120
but because it just seems like a lot of

00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:35.399
these points can be very subtle

00:33:35.399 --> 00:33:39.279
and tricky I guess and it's like I don't

00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.120
know if I see very many like it's

00:33:42.120 --> 00:33:44.480
amazing we've come this far so how much

00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:46.639
of it is a can be like a taught thing or

00:33:46.639 --> 00:33:48.480
how much of it is even just

00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.159
like an intuitive knowing like you know

00:33:52.159 --> 00:33:56.039
when to do things or not and whatever um

00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.440
yeah so actually I was talking about

00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.600
this to someone way before this course

00:34:01.600 --> 00:34:04.240
and that is you know one of the things

00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.880
you start to realize is you have this

00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.040
assumption that you've been trained to

00:34:09.040 --> 00:34:11.720
do the right thing and be good and and

00:34:11.720 --> 00:34:13.560
we know that there's all this philosophy

00:34:13.560 --> 00:34:15.399
moral philosophy around and you might

00:34:15.399 --> 00:34:17.200
have taken some philosophy courses and

00:34:17.200 --> 00:34:19.280
then you look at it and you realize I

00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:21.359
don't

00:34:21.359 --> 00:34:24.720
actually I don't know I mean I don't

00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:29.359
know how I make choices and I don't know

00:34:29.359 --> 00:34:31.599
if I'm

00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.960
particularly moral you realize that like

00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.720
we put this big value on it and when you

00:34:38.720 --> 00:34:41.320
examine your your life it's actually

00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:44.320
true there's not

00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.839
like you I you know I grew up learning

00:34:47.839 --> 00:34:50.000
the Ten Commandments but did they make

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.679
any difference to me you know no I

00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:53.760
didn't

00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.240
ever uh consult them

00:34:58.240 --> 00:35:01.240
um

00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:04.839
so um but one of the but then there

00:35:04.839 --> 00:35:07.920
there are these two levels there's the

00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:12.119
question of being good within the Norms

00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:13.119
of your

00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:16.240
culture but we don't live in a culture

00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:19.560
that's very moral uh from this other

00:35:19.560 --> 00:35:22.440
Viewpoint and then so then what do we

00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.119
have to do like this is what we're

00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.480
talking about so what what we're kind of

00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.640
defining is um living uh doing good

00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:34.480
things in the Norms of your own culture

00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:36.240
is more like ethics because you have a

00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:39.599
shared value right go to work get a good

00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.839
job make a lot of money be a good

00:35:41.839 --> 00:35:44.200
citizen pay your taxes these are all

00:35:44.200 --> 00:35:47.280
ethical Goods but then we have this

00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:48.560
funny

00:35:48.560 --> 00:35:51.880
realization uh currently that overall

00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.160
are they morally

00:35:54.160 --> 00:35:57.200
good you know there morally complic it

00:35:57.200 --> 00:36:01.640
with some problems and so this is why

00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:04.720
crazy people like me are trying to

00:36:04.720 --> 00:36:08.480
understand make some distinctions and

00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.960
understand um like if you saw the Sydney

00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:14.599
porier you know what is it what what is

00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:17.280
it that makes the son see something the

00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:18.520
father doesn't

00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:22.160
see um it's not social norms it has to

00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:24.960
be something else and that is I think

00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.040
you're right there's a muscle that comes

00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:30.560
up that that is like he just sees this

00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:32.240
as the good like when you're a kid you

00:36:32.240 --> 00:36:34.440
see no why are they doing that you know

00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:37.440
it's not good or as good as it could be

00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.520
or something there's some and so we're

00:36:40.520 --> 00:36:44.040
trying to work with that that was our

00:36:44.040 --> 00:36:47.920
first prompt um I'm not trying

00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:49.440
to

00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:55.319
moralize you know I'm trying to

00:36:55.319 --> 00:36:58.240
um yeah just think it's odd I've read

00:36:58.240 --> 00:37:01.400
all kinds of moral philosophy and

00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.440
Keegan's moral stages and all this but

00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:07.240
upon further examination it doesn't seem

00:37:07.240 --> 00:37:09.440
to

00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:14.160
be actually useful you know yeah um and

00:37:14.160 --> 00:37:18.240
and so it's always this question

00:37:22.319 --> 00:37:24.760
of going Beyond that's why it's called

00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:28.599
the moral animal going Beyond culture um

00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:32.640
to to

00:37:32.640 --> 00:37:37.000
um escape the Norms that within that

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.599
shared context seem seem like Goods but

00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.720
they're not they're not actually goods

00:37:42.720 --> 00:37:44.359
from a different perspective now what do

00:37:44.359 --> 00:37:46.520
we do with that is

00:37:46.520 --> 00:37:48.440
is it's

00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:52.200
very particular and complex and blah

00:37:52.200 --> 00:37:54.640
blah blah

00:37:54.640 --> 00:37:58.599
yeah yeah makes sense

00:38:03.680 --> 00:38:06.280
thanks and I I guess I just want to Ping

00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.160
back here before we go to Cal and that

00:38:08.160 --> 00:38:11.319
is something that do llama said is it's

00:38:11.319 --> 00:38:13.599
better to be happy and

00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:16.920
good than not be happy and good I mean

00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:18.640
you know first of all you want to be

00:38:18.640 --> 00:38:20.560
good but it's better to be happy and

00:38:20.560 --> 00:38:24.800
good they're not happy and good yeah

00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:26.720
that that comment you made actually of

00:38:26.720 --> 00:38:30.079
the the one that Charlie pointed out of

00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.760
the you know people who are kind of

00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:35.200
really focused on being

00:38:35.200 --> 00:38:38.480
moral perhaps have a tendency to resist

00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.880
the happiness that was that's an

00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:43.000
interesting an interesting point to look

00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.480
at and like myself and yeah good yeah

00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:48.440
it's a good pointer to notice they're

00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:49.920
they're not in conflict and actually

00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:54.599
they could be good partners you know

00:38:55.520 --> 00:38:58.520
um

00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.560
yeah uh pcking off Matt and just what

00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:06.200
you said after that Bonnie and um

00:39:06.200 --> 00:39:10.760
something that you said before that

00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:13.720
was where is it

00:39:13.720 --> 00:39:17.319
um it's almost like all the I I relate

00:39:17.319 --> 00:39:19.000
to that sense of like everything seems

00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:21.720
to be like already there but it's not

00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:24.000
properly ordered I feel like a lot of

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.720
what I'm doing is like I'm not learning

00:39:25.720 --> 00:39:29.440
anything but I'm trying to like put like

00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.119
a puzzle together it's more like that

00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:32.839
it's there but it's in this like wrong

00:39:32.839 --> 00:39:36.720
order and that's why you can't follow it

00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:38.280
through

00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:41.599
um and I relate to what you're saying

00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.440
Matt was like so I've always felt so

00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:46.960
desperate for like a good teacher like I

00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:49.720
just want like a mentor like I had that

00:39:49.720 --> 00:39:51.680
feeling a lot but then also like having

00:39:51.680 --> 00:39:54.480
that information of like oh what you're

00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:56.000
trying to do is stand on your own two

00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.240
feet and I was like okay how those two

00:39:59.240 --> 00:40:00.359
make

00:40:00.359 --> 00:40:04.880
sense um I was going to say um and being

00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.280
here what I like about being here is

00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.119
like because you're really charismatic

00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:11.599
Bonnie and I W I worry about like is

00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.800
this a cult sometimes you know like you

00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:18.920
know what I mean I'm like it's alarming

00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:21.560
how charismatic funny is and I'm like

00:40:21.560 --> 00:40:22.839
but that's not a bad

00:40:22.839 --> 00:40:26.760
alarm yeah no yeah um but you tell us

00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:28.560
what to do so I'm like okay that's a

00:40:28.560 --> 00:40:31.960
green flag um I I just have to say this

00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:36.440
my friend Tom Murray says that he's like

00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:39.119
um I forgot he was what he was saying

00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:40.640
but we're were coming back down from

00:40:40.640 --> 00:40:44.480
Maple and with gath's Cosmo erotic

00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:47.319
humanism which is a little cult-like and

00:40:47.319 --> 00:40:50.520
he's like well you know some of you will

00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:52.280
attest to this you're like but Bonnie

00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:55.720
you're you always end up like being at

00:40:55.720 --> 00:40:57.720
some point you always mean to people and

00:40:57.720 --> 00:41:00.240
blah blah blah and you and then I'm like

00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:03.160
yeah because like I'm almost a an you

00:41:03.160 --> 00:41:05.400
know like I I collect a lot of animals

00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:06.880
and I said to him last thing I want to

00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:10.160
do is collect start collecting people

00:41:10.160 --> 00:41:15.319
you know yeah um so um but this is an

00:41:15.319 --> 00:41:19.000
interesting question so a cult okay so

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:22.319
there are some cult aspects to to my

00:41:22.319 --> 00:41:25.280
work because we we work really hard on

00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.359
language and then it's a code inside of

00:41:28.359 --> 00:41:32.920
our community right so when so this is

00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:37.560
um actually um um something to be aware

00:41:37.560 --> 00:41:40.079
of we we know why we work really hard

00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:44.000
with language because of this way of

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.599
doing things but then it's we have to be

00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:51.000
careful because we want to take that to

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.240
learn something but then be able to

00:41:53.240 --> 00:41:56.240
start all over again so you know when

00:41:56.240 --> 00:41:57.760
one of the things I tried to do when new

00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.160
people come is start over again with

00:42:00.160 --> 00:42:04.440
normal language and and and uh a lot a

00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:05.920
lot of times people have better ways of

00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:08.400
explaining things like that

00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:15.720
so um uh that is I would say um um

00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:19.640
something to really look look at in

00:42:19.640 --> 00:42:24.960
terms of the the way we teach um

00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:29.319
um but but I'm always trying to and I

00:42:29.319 --> 00:42:32.119
know you're not accusing me of anything

00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:36.319
um but I really have this sense of

00:42:36.319 --> 00:42:39.480
urgency that I really feel like all I

00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.800
can do is give

00:42:43.040 --> 00:42:45.720
people the some of the right words and

00:42:45.720 --> 00:42:47.760
some insights because this is a very

00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:52.680
long-term project and I very uh strongly

00:42:52.680 --> 00:42:55.640
feel like it's won't be entirely

00:42:55.640 --> 00:42:58.040
delivered have finished or maybe hardly

00:42:58.040 --> 00:43:03.040
begun uh by the time I'm dead and so um

00:43:03.040 --> 00:43:06.559
I really relate it to it like that and

00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:09.640
this is also my big argument with Maple

00:43:09.640 --> 00:43:13.079
with Gaffney you know it's like I said I

00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:15.240
feel like my work is constellated by the

00:43:15.240 --> 00:43:17.240
people that are around me and I'm always

00:43:17.240 --> 00:43:20.640
trying to say what does that mean for

00:43:20.640 --> 00:43:22.800
them um yeah like that's a good

00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:24.440
sign for me when you say stuff like that

00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:26.680
I'm like yeah

00:43:26.680 --> 00:43:29.480
but the the the strongly controlled use

00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:32.000
of language especially at the beginning

00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:33.720
um and then you'll hear people using the

00:43:33.720 --> 00:43:35.720
same words and then you'll think like

00:43:35.720 --> 00:43:39.119
this is weird because like um this this

00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:42.800
is this can be uh problem problematic

00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.000
but I think we understand why we try to

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.200
use the same language to get

00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:51.440
us uh yeah to get some insights

00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:58.079
um but um um not everybody thinks I'm gu

00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.119
I can see that yeah you're a

00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:05.319
delicacy thank you it wears off it also

00:44:05.319 --> 00:44:09.800
it also wears off you know like um I'll

00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:11.760
tell you you know that's why I ended up

00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.559
working with horses for a long time

00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:16.280
because I was the uh the the president

00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:18.559
of the national Chiang Association and

00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:20.160
people would go to these conferences and

00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:22.119
get their channels all opened up by

00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.119
doing Chiang and and then they would

00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:26.079
come up to me and say you you you hold

00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.359
the key and and I hated it so I ended up

00:44:29.359 --> 00:44:31.559
putting my horses between me and people

00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:33.640
in the work because they could like

00:44:33.640 --> 00:44:36.200
project all over the horses and and the

00:44:36.200 --> 00:44:38.040
and the horses would come they dream

00:44:38.040 --> 00:44:40.559
about the horses at night and and I

00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:42.880
noticed the horses were really good at

00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:44.720
uh handling

00:44:44.720 --> 00:44:48.640
projection um I think that I have a

00:44:48.640 --> 00:44:52.480
little performance stick where I try to

00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:56.000
I allow myself to bark and be a little

00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:00.079
little crude because I don't want to uh

00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.640
add to any kind of false or Aura and I

00:45:03.640 --> 00:45:06.040
am kind of a crude person down here at

00:45:06.040 --> 00:45:10.079
the farm I try to let those things um

00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.520
you know I am aware of of of some of

00:45:12.520 --> 00:45:15.160
these I like the size that the popup

00:45:15.160 --> 00:45:17.520
school is and especially because many of

00:45:17.520 --> 00:45:19.359
you are working in

00:45:19.359 --> 00:45:22.720
groups also and you have your own way

00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:24.880
and your own

00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:26.880
um

00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:31.400
insights in your own roles and some

00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:33.160
things that I say people don't even

00:45:33.160 --> 00:45:35.000
agree with and and you don't have to

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.280
agree with them um but this this this

00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.640
control of language is always something

00:45:40.640 --> 00:45:45.359
to to be to be aware of for sure um

00:45:45.359 --> 00:45:47.680
that's okay we just buy it without

00:45:47.680 --> 00:45:50.559
taking the hook with you exactly and

00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:51.920
then if it turns out to be a cult we'll

00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.559
just deal with it after the fact when we

00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:56.760
realize yeah we don't want it to be a

00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.720
cult personality this is also by the way

00:45:59.720 --> 00:46:01.119
um you know what I'm trying to do is

00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.240
have these Live Events where few people

00:46:04.240 --> 00:46:07.079
meet a few people meet a few people and

00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.559
then you get a sense that it's kind of a

00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:13.520
network that yeah is yeah

00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:15.920
so but thank you for saying that it's

00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:18.599
something that I do think about and you

00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:22.319
know yeah yeah yeah I I I always think

00:46:22.319 --> 00:46:24.319
about I actually downloaded a book about

00:46:24.319 --> 00:46:26.720
like people that being in Cults and how

00:46:26.720 --> 00:46:28.359
they get out in the signs and stuff just

00:46:28.359 --> 00:46:31.400
in case like just due diligence so it's

00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:32.960
cool that you're like I I knew you'd

00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:35.720
find it funny and like get it and I

00:46:35.720 --> 00:46:38.400
thought like if it kind of like made you

00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:39.839
uncomfortable that's a good thing

00:46:39.839 --> 00:46:41.200
because like then because you think

00:46:41.200 --> 00:46:42.640
about it you know so that's like less

00:46:42.640 --> 00:46:44.720
likely anyway um can I finish my point

00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:47.760
really quickly sorry I much we got yeah

00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:49.000
sorry I thought because I thought it

00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:50.920
might be helpful for anyone but also if

00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:52.599
anyone wants to say like H I don't know

00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:54.559
that doesn't sound right but um because

00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:57.319
I have a moral thing at the moment oh

00:46:57.319 --> 00:47:00.359
yeah but um so you're teaching what we

00:47:00.359 --> 00:47:03.119
kind of already know

00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.839
um and it's to do and you help with like

00:47:05.839 --> 00:47:07.280
an order of understanding I feel like

00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:09.359
you've been helpful with that and so

00:47:09.359 --> 00:47:11.760
something that I wanted to put out that

00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:13.599
I I think about that might be helpful

00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.160
for other people because when you talk

00:47:15.160 --> 00:47:16.559
about like we just don't know like we

00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.160
just have to do it we just don't know

00:47:18.160 --> 00:47:19.559
that can be a bit alarming and I think

00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:20.599
that's a good thing for like

00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:22.280
conscientious people trying to be

00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:24.880
conscientious and just like do it just

00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:27.960
do it um and like it's like H if you

00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:31.520
like misread that that is like huh like

00:47:31.520 --> 00:47:34.119
you tell you know that's that's that's

00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:36.079
kind of like a a good sign to like be

00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:37.720
like like suspicous like you know if you

00:47:37.720 --> 00:47:41.119
don't fully get that um but I just

00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:43.160
wanted to share like the tie word for

00:47:43.160 --> 00:47:46.520
responsibility which is rup pit chop and

00:47:46.520 --> 00:47:48.119
that translates directly or like

00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:50.440
translates to something like accept

00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:53.760
wrong gladly or accept wrong without

00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.359
resistance so may and what and like when

00:47:56.359 --> 00:47:58.559
you say like just and like the way our

00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.119
culture is in the west is that like

00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:02.720
doing good is like this epic

00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:04.359
thing and you have to do a big thing and

00:48:04.359 --> 00:48:06.480
you have to like save people

00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:09.200
Steward of the earth like you know

00:48:09.200 --> 00:48:11.880
and so maybe what like you know just

00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:14.040
doing it and you don't like how you can

00:48:14.040 --> 00:48:15.559
mitigate that is like you do what you

00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:18.359
can live with right so then when you

00:48:18.359 --> 00:48:20.599
take responsibility for it you can

00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:22.400
accept if it fall and you do it you

00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:23.520
don't know it's going to happen and if

00:48:23.520 --> 00:48:26.119
it turns out to be like you cause more

00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:28.440
problems or you can accept the wrong

00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:30.960
without resistance or like you're doing

00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.240
what you can live with so you can you do

00:48:33.240 --> 00:48:35.040
stuff that like equates to your skill

00:48:35.040 --> 00:48:37.440
level of like being able to solve

00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.720
it does that make sense like if it comes

00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:41.800
to the problem like you don't go too big

00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:44.200
full you know what I mean perfect s so

00:48:44.200 --> 00:48:47.280
with this ideation around improving so

00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.559
I'm gonna use my language again

00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:51.640
improving it's more boring but but

00:48:51.640 --> 00:48:53.480
improving the potential for the good can

00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:57.640
put a break on this rah rah

00:48:57.640 --> 00:49:03.079
righteousness right be so so it it it

00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:07.000
it it has an extra burden in many cases

00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.799
because you can't burn through

00:49:09.799 --> 00:49:14.559
people um um because you may have

00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:17.119
exacerbated their response in the

00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:20.040
Direction you don't want it to go so

00:49:20.040 --> 00:49:24.880
yeah so this is the that on the one hand

00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.280
it sounds like high flutin moral thing

00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:28.920
but on the other hand it can really put

00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:32.440
a break on your response to wrong

00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:34.559
because you have to deal with the

00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.040
internal relationships of the people

00:49:37.040 --> 00:49:40.760
that have wronged you you have to yeah

00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.400
or wrong who have done a wrong if you

00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:46.640
make them more potential to do a greater

00:49:46.640 --> 00:49:50.000
wrong or be resentful to do even more

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:52.400
wrong than you haven't done this thing

00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:55.680
so in a sense it's high futin morality

00:49:55.680 --> 00:49:57.000
but from an

00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:01.119
external it can a act as a break on some

00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:02.240
kind of

00:50:02.240 --> 00:50:04.240
response

00:50:04.240 --> 00:50:08.079
um yeah and yeah it's like talking about

00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:11.640
like hard um hard restraints you know

00:50:11.640 --> 00:50:13.520
when you say like you end up doing less

00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:15.520
like people end up doing less when

00:50:15.520 --> 00:50:17.640
they're more moral like like the sense

00:50:17.640 --> 00:50:19.400
of people you see that are truly more do

00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:22.160
they do less because it's like they they

00:50:22.160 --> 00:50:24.880
they can keep up and get ahead of

00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:25.960
themselves

00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:27.799
they like they know their limitations

00:50:27.799 --> 00:50:30.480
that's a big part of it yeah and it's

00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:32.880
not like a turn the other cheek thing a

00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:35.559
turn the other thing can also sour the

00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:38.240
potential for the good because the some

00:50:38.240 --> 00:50:39.920
people are sociopathic and they're like

00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:43.559
well that was easy I'll just do more um

00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:46.480
and and yes and we've part of this is

00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:48.799
part of what you said also is because we

00:50:48.799 --> 00:50:52.400
defined morality as internal reactions

00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.720
and not trying to adjudicate external

00:50:54.720 --> 00:50:56.240
reactions

00:50:56.240 --> 00:50:59.960
right so if you steal from me it's just

00:50:59.960 --> 00:51:03.720
that I go to the the judge and make you

00:51:03.720 --> 00:51:07.440
give me money back but that's a Justice

00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.559
that's an act of Justice which is part

00:51:09.559 --> 00:51:11.720
of the human condition we have just

00:51:11.720 --> 00:51:16.319
defined that as not an in the realm of

00:51:16.319 --> 00:51:18.480
morality and we say well what then what

00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.559
would be the moral thing to do hm maybe

00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:23.880
I increase the potential for the good if

00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:26.599
I go and I get my money back back but

00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:30.440
maybe I can just see this kid I go and

00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:32.599
talk to him and then I say I'm not going

00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:36.440
to ask for my money back you know so

00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:41.119
this is it's much more complex that way

00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:44.200
um whereas Justice is yeah give her her

00:51:44.200 --> 00:51:46.520
money back you stole it right that's the

00:51:46.520 --> 00:51:48.720
external

00:51:48.720 --> 00:51:52.160
interaction so

00:51:52.160 --> 00:51:54.960
um but that's because we're we're trying

00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:58.680
to lineate these three domains so we can

00:51:58.680 --> 00:51:59.599
figure

00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:03.920
out why there's so much complexity in in

00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.559
this in these

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:10.760
fields they're all part of the human

00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:13.640
condition um we've just reserved the

00:52:13.640 --> 00:52:19.040
idea of morality into this kind of more

00:52:19.319 --> 00:52:24.000
extreme uh yeah obligation or

00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.480
something good

00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:30.040
excellent Eric or Anna or both or

00:52:30.040 --> 00:52:33.040
neither and or both neither

00:52:33.040 --> 00:52:37.440
nor and Anna hey Bonnie I I've been

00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:41.119
sitting with happiness and joy and

00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:43.440
fality it's it's going to be more like a

00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:46.599
mural because the concepts are so big um

00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:51.040
so but I I wonder about this

00:52:51.040 --> 00:52:53.960
happiness how it relates to Joy and

00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:57.359
vitality and the and cultivating it and

00:52:57.359 --> 00:52:59.920
holding that without pouring it out so

00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.640
it's almost like an energy leak and I

00:53:02.640 --> 00:53:05.359
see almost they're like a biomark or an

00:53:05.359 --> 00:53:08.440
entry point to this moral

00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:10.319
organ

00:53:10.319 --> 00:53:13.200
and that's the thing that that that this

00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:16.680
cultivating or holding on

00:53:17.700 --> 00:53:19.040
[Music]

00:53:19.040 --> 00:53:23.480
to Divine will or the allowing to let it

00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:25.920
Pour come through

00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:28.000
and then almost

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:30.079
like sometimes you I don't know if it's

00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:32.280
the psyche or not because maybe the Mind

00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:33.880
observes the I don't know how it works

00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:36.119
but I'm curious there's an I feel

00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:38.760
there's an entry point here from the

00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:42.559
psyche directly into the world with

00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:47.480
this pure true Essence that we all are

00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:50.319
connected with our there are no words

00:53:50.319 --> 00:53:54.839
for it but there's something here that I

00:53:54.839 --> 00:53:57.280
see is a biomark and I just feel it but

00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:59.640
I can't put words in it but I see there

00:53:59.640 --> 00:54:01.640
is the entry point to the psyche and the

00:54:01.640 --> 00:54:04.440
direct access to this moral organ that

00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:07.880
we are and and this I don't I don't want

00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:09.960
to use the word happiness and Sue and I

00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:12.400
had a beautiful discussion about this

00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:14.640
yesterday for hour and a half but it

00:54:14.640 --> 00:54:16.920
feels more like cultivating of joy and

00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:19.200
innocence because with this innocence

00:54:19.200 --> 00:54:23.200
there's this awe this wow look at this

00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:26.440
and in this awe is this multi-

00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:29.720
potentiality and therefore we can see or

00:54:29.720 --> 00:54:32.359
it's not see but feel attuned to the

00:54:32.359 --> 00:54:35.640
good it's like an allowing to be attuned

00:54:35.640 --> 00:54:38.160
to that entry point almost is that

00:54:38.160 --> 00:54:40.680
making any sense yeah it makes perfect

00:54:40.680 --> 00:54:44.640
sense um so what you're seeing what

00:54:44.640 --> 00:54:48.359
you're describing is

00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:52.760
is this direct realization that the

00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:54.079
universe is

00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:57.079
good

00:55:00.720 --> 00:55:02.880
and so this it's like a direct Insight

00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:05.079
like so we've been thinking about all

00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:07.160
these things in the in the way we've

00:55:07.160 --> 00:55:08.799
been

00:55:08.799 --> 00:55:11.640
describing what humans could do is

00:55:11.640 --> 00:55:13.280
actually

00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.720
analogous to this direct

00:55:16.720 --> 00:55:20.480
Insight um in this deep way that the

00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:22.480
universe is good and it strives to

00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:26.599
increase the potential of the good

00:55:26.599 --> 00:55:29.680
um so this not dialogic uh you can't

00:55:29.680 --> 00:55:32.760
convince someone of this um but I think

00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:37.039
that's what you are trying to express

00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:39.319
this it's so

00:55:39.319 --> 00:55:43.079
obvious um then once it becomes obvious

00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:45.039
then it's very hard to remember why it

00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:48.400
wasn't obvious part because this there's

00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:50.480
no other cult than Bunny's cult because

00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:53.559
all the other courses are just

00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:55.319
everything doesn't make any sense

00:55:55.319 --> 00:55:57.160
anymore because I'm looking I'm getting

00:55:57.160 --> 00:55:59.200
all these emails no but I want to say

00:55:59.200 --> 00:56:02.400
something it's a cult because I have by

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:06.039
the grace of God attracted the right

00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:09.880
people um you know so like I would never

00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:13.359
have said what you said uh nobody talks

00:56:13.359 --> 00:56:17.359
like Anna I mean but I recognize the

00:56:17.359 --> 00:56:18.720
experience you're having because I've

00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:19.920
had that

00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:24.319
experience um and it is it's a real

00:56:24.319 --> 00:56:25.720
experience

00:56:25.720 --> 00:56:28.400
and you can't teach it you can only try

00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:32.280
to set up the conditions so it presents

00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:35.160
itself because it's so I don't teach

00:56:35.160 --> 00:56:38.799
anything I just try to allow what is

00:56:38.799 --> 00:56:41.960
extremely intuitive and and fundamental

00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:43.240
in the

00:56:43.240 --> 00:56:48.119
human truth Factory to try to make it to

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:52.280
the light of day um so I'm just joking

00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:55.400
Bonnie as you know hopefully that

00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:58.839
this is like um Gathering or a place of

00:56:58.839 --> 00:57:05.000
that this this crazy feeling of or

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:09.079
this yeah there's this hope there's this

00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:12.400
cultivating of this hope that I feel it

00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:15.119
is possible and that what you just have

00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:18.280
expressed about the beauty of the cosmos

00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:21.079
and that it is beauty that

00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:25.319
is that that we are collectively sharing

00:57:25.319 --> 00:57:29.480
it here and every time I leave I'm just

00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:33.240
more more hopeful in a way and my cup is

00:57:33.240 --> 00:57:36.720
more filled and that that's the reason

00:57:36.720 --> 00:57:41.119
why I'm here so yeah yeah yeah that's

00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:45.520
beautiful insight and

00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:51.079
um let's go go ahead and go into our uh

00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:53.319
breakout because it has a little bit

00:57:53.319 --> 00:57:55.480
something to do with that

00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:58.960
um and you might have to try it might be

00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:01.480
easy for you and you might have to

00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:05.119
try um to find something in your

00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:09.119
memory uh so

00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:11.440
um and of course you're going to do the

00:58:11.440 --> 00:58:14.079
prompt and you're also going to watch uh

00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.880
biomarkers and and what is the process

00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:20.480
of of of working with this prompt and

00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:22.680
that

00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:26.720
is um

00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:28.760
I want you to

00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:32.640
share an experience you

00:58:32.640 --> 00:58:36.119
had when

00:58:38.680 --> 00:58:42.160
someone um when you recognized that

00:58:42.160 --> 00:58:44.440
someone was standing up for the good or

00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:47.799
the truth or something like

00:58:47.799 --> 00:58:50.680
that someone else so some couple people

00:58:50.680 --> 00:58:52.280
said we don't have any models we don't

00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:53.440
have any

00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:56.200
mentors I'm I don't want you to use I

00:58:56.200 --> 00:58:58.839
want you to try to talk about someone

00:58:58.839 --> 00:59:01.160
you know you've you've had this

00:59:01.160 --> 00:59:03.760
experience for real not like the picture

00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:06.280
of the guy in tianan square who stood in

00:59:06.280 --> 00:59:11.240
front of the front of the uh

00:59:11.240 --> 00:59:13.920
tanks was that what someone was thinking

00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:17.799
of um you know so someone so you might

00:59:17.799 --> 00:59:20.480
have to think of small

00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:23.640
Goods because we want it to be personal

00:59:23.640 --> 00:59:26.640
to small Goods

00:59:29.520 --> 00:59:34.240
um and what you're trying to do

00:59:35.640 --> 00:59:38.160
is explore

00:59:38.160 --> 00:59:40.920
like what that experience was like to

00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:42.480
see

00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:44.839
someone cut Against the Grain a little

00:59:44.839 --> 00:59:47.240
and do the right thing they might be

00:59:47.240 --> 00:59:49.599
small they might be small Goods not not

00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:52.400
a lot of us have been in the presence of

00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:53.359
like some

00:59:53.359 --> 00:59:56.920
dramatic person person doing a

00:59:56.920 --> 01:00:02.520
good now if you can't find one of those

01:00:02.520 --> 01:00:07.000
um or if you want to do both of these

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.720
when did you see something in

01:00:10.839 --> 01:00:15.680
nature that exemplify The Good the

01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:19.440
potential for the good in a natural

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.920
entity natural

01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:27.079
being so when have you witnessed

01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:31.240
that um in in your own actual

01:00:31.240 --> 01:00:34.839
experience does that make

01:00:36.520 --> 01:00:41.480
sense okay so let's do 25

01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:45.480
minutes and

01:00:53.520 --> 01:00:56.520
um

01:00:59.240 --> 01:01:01.760
oh that's

01:01:03.319 --> 01:01:07.920
helpful okay uh I gotta gota do 25

01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:09.960
minutes all right and I'll see you in a

01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:11.880
little bit enjoy your conversation and

01:01:11.880 --> 01:01:14.359
enjoy your

01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:26.440
company

01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:35.039
okay do we have any

01:01:44.160 --> 01:01:47.039
shares yeah I I would like to say

01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:50.359
something uh I was with Anna and Eric

01:01:50.359 --> 01:01:55.000
which is very interesting and um also k

01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:56.920
so that was an interesting group CU an

01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:58.599
and I have been talking quite and

01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:01.880
sharing a lot around all of this um

01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:05.039
anyway but I just wanted to say this

01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:08.160
that it's not an easy

01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:12.720
thing to always know how the potential

01:02:12.720 --> 01:02:14.520
for the good when you're making the

01:02:14.520 --> 01:02:18.319
decision clearly it for me it's not an

01:02:18.319 --> 01:02:22.400
easy thing and and you can I I mean the

01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:24.559
the problem of being righteous of being

01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:27.720
justed that all of these things come up

01:02:27.720 --> 01:02:31.720
again however I I

01:02:31.720 --> 01:02:34.720
find it much

01:02:34.720 --> 01:02:38.440
easier when like Anna like you're saying

01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:41.799
the universe is good and for me that

01:02:41.799 --> 01:02:43.319
also

01:02:43.319 --> 01:02:45.880
includes like the universe in nature

01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:48.480
just calls it's always calling it's come

01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:50.960
and see come and see and you're always

01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:54.640
getting this amazing invitation and

01:02:54.640 --> 01:02:58.799
opportunity and in that space I don't

01:02:58.799 --> 01:03:02.799
really I don't have any mental models I

01:03:02.799 --> 01:03:05.799
don't have any system things and da da

01:03:05.799 --> 01:03:12.200
da da that show what is the good what is

01:03:12.200 --> 01:03:16.480
to do but there is a un knowing what is

01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:19.760
to do and what is the good and the

01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:23.279
potential for the good and it's not like

01:03:23.279 --> 01:03:27.440
and get it wrong I mean can stuff it up

01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:31.200
and it but it's more comfortable I

01:03:31.200 --> 01:03:34.520
suppose or more yeah it just is better

01:03:34.520 --> 01:03:40.119
that way than formulating anything

01:03:41.720 --> 01:03:45.720
and it's a little bit like that story

01:03:45.720 --> 01:03:48.039
that people tell though it's not quite

01:03:48.039 --> 01:03:50.559
the same do that story that people tell

01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:52.200
on your death bed you realize you

01:03:52.200 --> 01:03:53.279
wouldn't have done half the things

01:03:53.279 --> 01:03:55.200
you've done what would you differently

01:03:55.200 --> 01:03:59.279
da D and I think that that's sort of the

01:03:59.279 --> 01:04:02.799
question here as

01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:07.400
well how would you what matters right

01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:10.319
now in this moment right now in this

01:04:10.319 --> 01:04:13.920
moment what matters how is the

01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:16.640
potential for the good and everyone

01:04:16.640 --> 01:04:20.400
included in this moment I'm not even

01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:22.760
expanding out to the universe but there

01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:26.400
is that anyway but yeah I don't know I'm

01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:27.279
a

01:04:27.279 --> 01:04:29.359
little don't know if that makes any

01:04:29.359 --> 01:04:32.760
sense but that's how it

01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:35.359
feels to

01:04:35.359 --> 01:04:39.799
me we can't there's no calculating this

01:04:39.799 --> 01:04:42.039
there's no I mean I'm not saying

01:04:42.039 --> 01:04:43.799
debunking calculating but it's very

01:04:43.799 --> 01:04:45.520
limiting isn't

01:04:45.520 --> 01:04:48.760
it yeah anyway that's all I have to say

01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:52.400
at this stage um I do at some point want

01:04:52.400 --> 01:04:54.599
to ask some questions around going vales

01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:58.520
still but um yeah I'm just going to say

01:04:58.520 --> 01:05:00.760
enough right now thank

01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:03.760
you

01:05:04.799 --> 01:05:07.839
maybe no please continue I'm like really

01:05:07.839 --> 01:05:10.839
aroused sorry so I'm

01:05:11.720 --> 01:05:14.119
like I was just going to invite you to

01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:18.680
speak so go oh really oh yeah I was

01:05:18.680 --> 01:05:21.680
um that conversation blew my

01:05:21.680 --> 01:05:25.760
mind because yeah I I just kept like I

01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:30.880
felt this like I felt like um there was

01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:34.039
like I saw like a a dis not a disconnect

01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:37.000
a difference but maybe like clarify this

01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:39.480
with me but that conversation blew my

01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:41.559
 mind because it was around like

01:05:41.559 --> 01:05:44.960
um Anna um saw something happening like

01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:46.480
a cat and a

01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:51.319
bird and she felt the need to act and

01:05:51.319 --> 01:05:54.079
she but she could she was saying like

01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:58.520
clarify this for me um but she she

01:05:58.520 --> 01:06:02.160
couldn't choose like to act in which way

01:06:02.160 --> 01:06:04.880
stop the bird or let the cat like save

01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:06.960
the bird or let the cat do its

01:06:06.960 --> 01:06:09.839
thing and um but she felt the need to

01:06:09.839 --> 01:06:12.079
act but okay so what blew my mind about

01:06:12.079 --> 01:06:14.279
that conversation was like I felt like

01:06:14.279 --> 01:06:19.079
the act the Act was not acting um but

01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:20.880
then I felt like this like oh no but I

01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:23.279
need to act and then for me I was like

01:06:23.279 --> 01:06:26.520
you did act the Act was not acting and

01:06:26.520 --> 01:06:30.079
what blew my mind was like do

01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:33.520
people find that not acting is an act

01:06:33.520 --> 01:06:34.760
because I

01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:37.880
do does that make

01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:41.720
sense like do some people it's an act

01:06:41.720 --> 01:06:44.920
isn't an act it's an act of will it's an

01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.039
AC of Will and also you know I'm so

01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:50.440
tired me and Susan are the only

01:06:50.440 --> 01:06:53.599
bomb F bombers here and so you can drop

01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:55.799
an F B whenever you want and then make

01:06:55.799 --> 01:06:58.279
three of

01:06:58.540 --> 01:06:59.920
[Music]

01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:03.599
us yeah it's an act of will because when

01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:06.319
you don't act you can feel the will

01:07:06.319 --> 01:07:09.920
right of yeah it's an act of

01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:21.200
will I'm going to jump in with the cat

01:07:21.200 --> 01:07:24.680
because I I could see myself in that in

01:07:24.680 --> 01:07:28.079
that that that situation being the

01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:31.440
individuated person and part of culture

01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:33.839
I could see myself

01:07:33.839 --> 01:07:37.000
like and if I Dro that culture I would

01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:40.640
act I would go and just do the thing you

01:07:40.640 --> 01:07:44.640
know it's arising it but then it's like

01:07:44.640 --> 01:07:47.640
there's this morality the moral for

01:07:47.640 --> 01:07:51.440
culture and the moral for the good I was

01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:55.039
I was torn by it in that moment but I

01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:57.240
want to act I want to do this because I

01:07:57.240 --> 01:08:00.039
know this is the right thing but I'm act

01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:05.119
I'm I'm stopped by the by the structure

01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:08.319
that the systems have put in place in my

01:08:08.319 --> 01:08:10.760
culture what is the right thing to do

01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.520
but I am not I don't want to identify

01:08:13.520 --> 01:08:16.799
with that but I could see that and the

01:08:16.799 --> 01:08:19.400
other thing both at the same time so I

01:08:19.400 --> 01:08:22.839
was like all I could do is step back and

01:08:22.839 --> 01:08:27.239
Witness this witnessing or this giving

01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:30.159
it I don't know giving

01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:31.759
it

01:08:31.759 --> 01:08:34.920
awareness was the only thing that was

01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:37.040
the good thing to do what catala said I

01:08:37.040 --> 01:08:39.359
think is what else I can't kill a cat

01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:41.279
because it takes a bird out of the tree

01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:43.679
because I don't want to do that but

01:08:43.679 --> 01:08:45.440
there's something in me that wants to

01:08:45.440 --> 01:08:48.319
stop that from

01:08:52.799 --> 01:08:55.640
happening in that context though and I

01:08:55.640 --> 01:08:57.920
probably need to explain that in New

01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:01.159
Zealand we have native birds and two

01:09:01.159 --> 01:09:04.839
mammals and then as people turn up they

01:09:04.839 --> 01:09:08.000
get carried away and they start killing

01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:11.960
deliberately or not um a large amount of

01:09:11.960 --> 01:09:14.040
our birds and also all the Flora of

01:09:14.040 --> 01:09:16.279
course is going and a lot of that's to

01:09:16.279 --> 01:09:19.159
do with introducing foreign

01:09:19.159 --> 01:09:21.759
alien mammals that weren't here before

01:09:21.759 --> 01:09:24.839
but they are here now and and it's

01:09:24.839 --> 01:09:27.319
around that and there's a very strong

01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:30.480
move or a strong feeling in New Zealand

01:09:30.480 --> 01:09:33.480
that we want our native birds to stay

01:09:33.480 --> 01:09:36.000
here and a lot of money is spent there's

01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:38.480
a big conservation department the

01:09:38.480 --> 01:09:40.640
government give a lot of money to and

01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:42.880
they have all sorts of programs to do

01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:45.359
this and so the bird that Anna was

01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:48.000
seeing is a native bird and so there is

01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:50.319
that there is a pressure there there is

01:09:50.319 --> 01:09:52.040
that thing that's here that energy

01:09:52.040 --> 01:09:55.320
that's here in our culture

01:09:55.320 --> 01:09:57.840
and it's interesting that you don't if

01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:00.080
you're in the culture you don't want to

01:10:00.080 --> 01:10:02.560
kill a cat but in our culture if you're

01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:04.800
in the culture you are killing we kill

01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:07.880
endless sheep so if you can get

01:10:07.880 --> 01:10:12.040
out of that then what stay with that

01:10:12.040 --> 01:10:15.880
will stay with that what to

01:10:15.880 --> 01:10:20.120
do I I it's that's how how I see it

01:10:20.120 --> 01:10:22.239
because a lot of the conflicting

01:10:22.239 --> 01:10:24.679
information is just culture

01:10:24.679 --> 01:10:26.560
it's and it's energy and stuff that's

01:10:26.560 --> 01:10:29.400
around at the moment in now in New

01:10:29.400 --> 01:10:33.159
Zealand but then I mean you just wanted

01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:34.840
to act

01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:39.159
so go for it though I say I don't think

01:10:39.159 --> 01:10:42.360
like I don't think like like not wanting

01:10:42.360 --> 01:10:44.960
to kill a cat is just cultural it's a

01:10:44.960 --> 01:10:51.400
 cat they're cute as

01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:55.080
like

01:10:55.080 --> 01:10:56.440
like but I know what you mean in the

01:10:56.440 --> 01:10:58.000
cultural context but I think that I

01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:00.120
didn't see the Dilemma as like cultural

01:11:00.120 --> 01:11:02.679
like it is it plays into it but I was

01:11:02.679 --> 01:11:05.440
like who wants to kill a

01:11:05.440 --> 01:11:10.199
cat you know like yeah

01:11:10.520 --> 01:11:14.320
sorry I I I absolutely get that but I

01:11:14.320 --> 01:11:16.520
was just wanting to make the point that

01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:20.000
uh that Anna in some ways is saying and

01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:21.840
acknowledging that she's a little bit

01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:24.199
trapped in the culture as well in this

01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:27.400
dilemma that she's facing and in our

01:11:27.400 --> 01:11:30.560
culture that killing cats we don't kill

01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.679
cats although I have to say that a large

01:11:33.679 --> 01:11:35.560
number of cats have gone feral and

01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:38.520
farmers are having feral hunting

01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:41.080
shooting cats they kill hundreds of them

01:11:41.080 --> 01:11:43.199
they have big day of it it's a big

01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:45.800
festival thing so to try and saave the

01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:48.120
birds so there's another thing but I

01:11:48.120 --> 01:11:50.040
just wanted to make the point that I

01:11:50.040 --> 01:11:51.520
felt that the killing of the cat for

01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:53.960
Anna was sitting in this cultural

01:11:53.960 --> 01:11:56.679
dilemma thing and yeah that's all but I

01:11:56.679 --> 01:11:57.600
mean

01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:00.280
I would I kill a cat wellow that's

01:12:00.280 --> 01:12:02.199
interesting outside of my

01:12:02.199 --> 01:12:05.080
culture interesting question I didn't

01:12:05.080 --> 01:12:08.520
want exactly and the there was an EIC

01:12:08.520 --> 01:12:10.480
stream arising and I was looking for an

01:12:10.480 --> 01:12:13.080
action that's satisfied and it was not

01:12:13.080 --> 01:12:15.840
killing the cat but this stream that

01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.639
arises this animal nature being in

01:12:18.639 --> 01:12:21.199
nature and having this animal nature and

01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:24.120
what do you do with that that's that's

01:12:24.120 --> 01:12:28.280
this moral act or and and

01:12:28.280 --> 01:12:30.800
then you I could have this virtual

01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:33.400
perceptions and go all all different

01:12:33.400 --> 01:12:36.199
ways how am I going to act what can I do

01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:38.679
how can I how can I be with this and

01:12:38.679 --> 01:12:40.719
seeing all the perspectives of

01:12:40.719 --> 01:12:42.960
protecting the bird live in New Zealand

01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:44.560
protecting the cat because I love

01:12:44.560 --> 01:12:46.920
animals you know it's like there but

01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:48.719
there's something that happens here

01:12:48.719 --> 01:12:51.280
that's wrong because we as humans

01:12:51.280 --> 01:12:55.080
introduced animals in this area or this

01:12:55.080 --> 01:12:56.920
part of the world that shouldn't be here

01:12:56.920 --> 01:12:59.800
and again who am I to say we humans

01:12:59.800 --> 01:13:01.600
introduced animals that shouldn't be

01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:04.920
here again I don't know and I do know

01:13:04.920 --> 01:13:07.400
there is this again I don't know the

01:13:07.400 --> 01:13:09.920
greater picture but from my perspective

01:13:09.920 --> 01:13:11.960
what I can see I think it's not the

01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:14.800
right thing to introduce animals in an

01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:17.840
area where they don't

01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:25.080
belong okay yeah so this is part of how

01:13:25.080 --> 01:13:27.400
this I it's great because this is

01:13:27.400 --> 01:13:29.360
exactly

01:13:29.360 --> 01:13:32.360
we're

01:13:33.400 --> 01:13:36.719
enacting we're learning about this this

01:13:36.719 --> 01:13:40.280
territory I mean it goes It

01:13:40.280 --> 01:13:44.560
goes goes on and on and one of the

01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:47.760
things we're noticing is

01:13:47.760 --> 01:13:49.360
this

01:13:49.360 --> 01:13:52.360
um this this

01:13:52.360 --> 01:13:56.159
attempt to get to the larger perspective

01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:57.920
and then a larger perspective and a

01:13:57.920 --> 01:13:59.000
larger

01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:00.760
perspective

01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:04.480
and you know I once wrote an article

01:14:04.480 --> 01:14:07.239
about there were all these feral cats

01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:08.960
where I used to have my horses on an Old

01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:10.560
Farm and the Old Farm was kind of

01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:13.719
disheveled and this and that and there

01:14:13.719 --> 01:14:16.440
were so many there was like a thousand

01:14:16.440 --> 01:14:18.560
swallows in the barn and they had like

01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:22.679
50 feral cats and then I once went then

01:14:22.679 --> 01:14:25.280
I would go to this guy's house and he

01:14:25.280 --> 01:14:27.080
had written article you know we

01:14:27.080 --> 01:14:31.320
landscapers he had like 30 acres and you

01:14:31.320 --> 01:14:35.120
know he was all all negative about cats

01:14:35.120 --> 01:14:37.120
and people leaving their cats out

01:14:37.120 --> 01:14:39.920
because he loved the birds and he had no

01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:42.719
birds on his property and he blamed the

01:14:42.719 --> 01:14:44.840
fact that people let their cats out but

01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:48.520
he had like 14 acres of lawn and that's

01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:51.639
why I didn't have any birds and that's

01:14:51.639 --> 01:14:53.800
why you know no cat in their right mind

01:14:53.800 --> 01:14:55.560
would hang out there because there was

01:14:55.560 --> 01:14:59.960
nothing to eat and so it's really hard

01:14:59.960 --> 01:15:05.360
to uh yeah like this this move but what

01:15:05.360 --> 01:15:07.320
I'm trying to point out is this

01:15:07.320 --> 01:15:12.239
move to is always to get less partial

01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:16.000
and in the larger perspective it gets

01:15:16.000 --> 01:15:18.000
confusing

01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:20.520
um I mean we do that we want to have

01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:24.080
that muscle but it it it gets a very

01:15:24.080 --> 01:15:27.520
complex territory uh right away and

01:15:27.520 --> 01:15:29.239
there's probably no end to it at this

01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:32.560
point like like Susan said but we did

01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:35.199
introduce them like that's also a larger

01:15:35.199 --> 01:15:39.199
perspective so um yeah this is this is

01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:44.199
very uh signature of these these

01:15:45.360 --> 01:15:47.960
questions good question

01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:52.679
question go for it Samuel oh okay yeah

01:15:52.679 --> 01:15:54.080
yeah um

01:15:54.080 --> 01:15:56.159
so I'm trying to bring this together

01:15:56.159 --> 01:15:58.280
like I'm thinking often like now about

01:15:58.280 --> 01:15:59.880
reflective awareness and how this is

01:15:59.880 --> 01:16:02.239
connected to to what we're

01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:06.239
talking and so you just said like okay

01:16:06.239 --> 01:16:08.480
this higher higher perspectives like I

01:16:08.480 --> 01:16:12.239
was thinking okay this uh um so ethics

01:16:12.239 --> 01:16:15.480
evolutive reasoning this is also kind of

01:16:15.480 --> 01:16:17.920
like it feels like that like higher

01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:19.800
higher being able to to reason more

01:16:19.800 --> 01:16:23.320
about higher higher big identities or

01:16:23.320 --> 01:16:27.159
whatever and and then but it but still

01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:29.400
it feels like this what we talking about

01:16:29.400 --> 01:16:31.639
morality more enemies like coming from

01:16:31.639 --> 01:16:34.679
this reflective awareness more so I'm

01:16:34.679 --> 01:16:38.320
I'm like trying to mix them and having a

01:16:38.320 --> 01:16:41.560
hard time no no no you actually caught

01:16:41.560 --> 01:16:47.800
me making a category error uh so um yes

01:16:47.800 --> 01:16:50.840
you're you're thank you you've this is

01:16:50.840 --> 01:16:53.159
exactly the distinction when when you're

01:16:53.159 --> 01:16:54.960
trying to zoom out and zoom out and zoom

01:16:54.960 --> 01:16:57.440
out and keep evaluating this is what we

01:16:57.440 --> 01:16:59.880
called the ethics more of the

01:16:59.880 --> 01:17:02.920
ethics uh when you just stopped and

01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:05.320
through an AC of will did nothing then

01:17:05.320 --> 01:17:10.040
it turns into you you exhaust that

01:17:10.040 --> 01:17:13.760
process you can't evaluate it anymore

01:17:13.760 --> 01:17:17.880
and you just stop and try to learn try

01:17:17.880 --> 01:17:20.960
to have an Insight from witnessing is

01:17:20.960 --> 01:17:23.120
that what you were going at Samuel yeah

01:17:23.120 --> 01:17:26.840
so very good do you see like like why

01:17:26.840 --> 01:17:29.400
the distinctions are interesting I mean

01:17:29.400 --> 01:17:32.600
I got caught up in cat story and we were

01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:35.080
actually doing more of a process of

01:17:35.080 --> 01:17:37.960
evaluative reasoning which has this

01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:42.760
marker and um yeah and and and and I

01:17:42.760 --> 01:17:44.639
didn't catch it but Samuel caught it

01:17:44.639 --> 01:17:46.639
like that that's more in the realm of

01:17:46.639 --> 01:17:50.280
Ethics uh we have a shared understanding

01:17:50.280 --> 01:17:53.199
um that is complex and this and that but

01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:57.199
yeah beautiful Samuel and he's he's

01:17:57.199 --> 01:17:58.880
understanding that but in Morality

01:17:58.880 --> 01:17:59.800
there's

01:17:59.800 --> 01:18:02.520
something you that's exhausted so

01:18:02.520 --> 01:18:04.520
there's some there's something else and

01:18:04.520 --> 01:18:06.800
maybe you just look at the good of if

01:18:06.800 --> 01:18:08.880
the universe is like what is going on

01:18:08.880 --> 01:18:11.199
here like yeah is that what you were

01:18:11.199 --> 01:18:14.600
saying Samuel like yeah I mean I didn't

01:18:14.600 --> 01:18:18.000
thought that I was like that what you

01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:20.719
were saying what you were saying anyway

01:18:20.719 --> 01:18:22.360
it started basically really with with

01:18:22.360 --> 01:18:24.679
like trying to understand reflective

01:18:24.679 --> 01:18:27.080
awareness in the context of of morality

01:18:27.080 --> 01:18:29.360
we're talking now yeah exactly yeah but

01:18:29.360 --> 01:18:31.639
but it makes sense what you said click

01:18:31.639 --> 01:18:33.440
like when you when you said this is more

01:18:33.440 --> 01:18:35.080
like evaluative reasoning makes more

01:18:35.080 --> 01:18:37.800
sense for me now yeah yeah um you could

01:18:37.800 --> 01:18:39.440
tell we were doing EV valuative

01:18:39.440 --> 01:18:41.920
reasoning and the marker was the zoom

01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:44.000
thing and then I got it mixed up because

01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:45.679
I was saying this is the marker of

01:18:45.679 --> 01:18:49.239
morality and it was my own my own Logics

01:18:49.239 --> 01:18:52.679
was getting muddied up yeah very good

01:18:52.679 --> 01:18:58.600
very very good um yeah very good catch

01:19:01.120 --> 01:19:04.159
there and in the end Anna didn't do e

01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:05.800
either of them she

01:19:05.800 --> 01:19:07.320
just

01:19:07.320 --> 01:19:10.159
yeah so so but then the question is like

01:19:10.159 --> 01:19:12.320
Al kind of this reflective awareness

01:19:12.320 --> 01:19:16.639
isn't a strong way the way into morality

01:19:16.639 --> 01:19:19.600
or like perceiving this kind

01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:23.080
of no I I I think this zoom zoom zoom

01:19:23.080 --> 01:19:27.199
zoom zoom is in the realm of evaluative

01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:30.440
reasoning yes yes yes yes but but

01:19:30.440 --> 01:19:31.639
reflective

01:19:31.639 --> 01:19:35.080
awareness is not morality it's not it's

01:19:35.080 --> 01:19:38.239
yeah reflective aware I mean I'm saying

01:19:38.239 --> 01:19:40.520
reflective awareness is the zoom process

01:19:40.520 --> 01:19:43.600
is but I think you're saying something

01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.280
different oh just what do you mean by

01:19:46.280 --> 01:19:47.679
reflective

01:19:47.679 --> 01:19:50.120
awareness like what we have had in

01:19:50.120 --> 01:19:53.880
module of reflective awareness yeah

01:19:53.880 --> 01:19:57.520
oh I see that's that's not evaluative

01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.120
reasoning right no no yeah reflexivity

01:20:00.120 --> 01:20:04.679
is it could yeah reflexive sorry what I

01:20:04.679 --> 01:20:06.800
used the wrong reflexive awareness yeah

01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:09.320
yeah and that would be in the realm of

01:20:09.320 --> 01:20:11.880
morality um but it doesn't have this

01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:15.560
infinite regress of Zoom Zoom okay yes

01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:17.639
we're saying the same thing that's a

01:20:17.639 --> 01:20:18.920
really good

01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:21.760
catch

01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:24.760
um

01:20:29.480 --> 01:20:31.560
because the zoom zoom zoom thing is

01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:33.440
you're trying to get outside the system

01:20:33.440 --> 01:20:35.400
to look at it so you make it bigger and

01:20:35.400 --> 01:20:37.639
bigger and bigger until it's so big but

01:20:37.639 --> 01:20:39.639
then I can still evaluate it from

01:20:39.639 --> 01:20:41.800
outside where whereas the by definition

01:20:41.800 --> 01:20:43.920
reflexive awareness is I'm already in

01:20:43.920 --> 01:20:47.239
the system I only can poke at it or look

01:20:47.239 --> 01:20:51.719
at it and learn from it yeah

01:20:51.719 --> 01:20:54.719
exactly

01:20:55.440 --> 01:20:58.400
and then morality is like um reflexive

01:20:58.400 --> 01:21:01.159
awareness in a way with the will part

01:21:01.159 --> 01:21:03.480
yes that's what this this will part is

01:21:03.480 --> 01:21:05.880
essential there yeah and it may be

01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:08.880
because it's we're new at it so we need

01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:11.040
to add more energy to

01:21:11.040 --> 01:21:13.800
it um we do a lot of things that are

01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:17.000
toward the good that are effortless but

01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:18.520
when you have to

01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:21.480
break like a like Anna was explaining

01:21:21.480 --> 01:21:23.199
like she could hear the pressure of the

01:21:23.199 --> 01:21:24.560
culture and then the this and the

01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:26.320
pressure of this and then and so you

01:21:26.320 --> 01:21:29.920
need to you need to bring up something

01:21:29.920 --> 01:21:37.639
in order to do that um and um

01:21:41.360 --> 01:21:44.400
yeah yeah that's really cool thank you

01:21:44.400 --> 01:21:47.040
so much for

01:21:47.320 --> 01:21:50.159
that that's a really I mean Samuel made

01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:52.280
just a really really really kind of

01:21:52.280 --> 01:21:55.040
sophist phisticated distinction and if

01:21:55.040 --> 01:21:59.159
and and um if that didn't land with you

01:21:59.159 --> 01:22:02.239
you didn't miss anything out except for

01:22:02.239 --> 01:22:05.440
how yeah except for some really high

01:22:05.440 --> 01:22:08.280
Concepts that we were dealing with

01:22:08.280 --> 01:22:11.679
earlier as long as the point he made was

01:22:11.679 --> 01:22:13.760
this zoom zoom zoom thing is actually

01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:18.320
not a flag for the moral domain it's

01:22:18.320 --> 01:22:21.239
it's the domain of evaluative reasoning

01:22:21.239 --> 01:22:23.120
and that actually makes more sense

01:22:23.120 --> 01:22:25.199
even you know the culture and this and

01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:29.520
that and and um and I had and I had made

01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:33.280
that mistake getting caught up in the G

01:22:33.280 --> 01:22:36.040
bird

01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:41.360
conversation Samuel is now our cult

01:22:41.360 --> 01:22:44.920
leader I know I was gonna say that I'm

01:22:44.920 --> 01:22:51.360
I'm just yeah I I'm I'm I'm thinking I'm

01:22:51.560 --> 01:22:53.560
thinking

01:22:53.560 --> 01:22:56.400
um yeah you know because the definition

01:22:56.400 --> 01:22:58.560
of cult lead leader is you don't know

01:22:58.560 --> 01:23:01.239
they're the cult

01:23:03.280 --> 01:23:06.880
leader okay thank you

01:23:12.639 --> 01:23:14.320
Samuel

01:23:14.320 --> 01:23:17.320
Bonnie

01:23:21.480 --> 01:23:23.000
everybody

01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:26.639
I was really excited that you brought up

01:23:26.639 --> 01:23:29.960
determination and

01:23:32.440 --> 01:23:36.800
vow I'm I've had more than one

01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:40.080
experience of a marriage

01:23:40.080 --> 01:23:43.760
vow the kind of

01:23:44.679 --> 01:23:49.199
vow I'm interested in goes beyond that

01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:51.480
in the like

01:23:51.480 --> 01:23:57.360
in the voluntary obligation morality

01:23:57.360 --> 01:24:01.719
world and in our breakout there was a

01:24:01.719 --> 01:24:04.840
vow that was put into the middle of our

01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:08.880
discussion by Holly a Buddhist vow

01:24:08.880 --> 01:24:11.480
Buddhist style vow is that would you

01:24:11.480 --> 01:24:14.920
characterize it that bearing witness

01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:17.960
vow no just like about you well I guess

01:24:17.960 --> 01:24:20.719
it's a bearing witness or you know I

01:24:20.719 --> 01:24:22.960
don't know if it's Buddhist but anyway

01:24:22.960 --> 01:24:25.360
it was a vow and so

01:24:25.360 --> 01:24:30.840
I in this module would like to open up

01:24:30.840 --> 01:24:34.880
that dialogue about personal

01:24:34.880 --> 01:24:39.840
vow and coming from

01:24:40.639 --> 01:24:45.520
determination in as you put it this new

01:24:45.520 --> 01:24:47.520
language of love

01:24:47.520 --> 01:24:51.360
Bonnie maybe not

01:24:51.360 --> 01:24:54.360
words

01:24:54.560 --> 01:24:56.639
so I didn't want to leave this call I

01:24:56.639 --> 01:24:59.800
and spent two hours without bringing

01:24:59.800 --> 01:25:02.560
that issue

01:25:06.800 --> 01:25:09.760
forward and I think it goes right to the

01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:12.040
new

01:25:16.159 --> 01:25:19.000
human and right back down to the first

01:25:19.000 --> 01:25:21.800
module how does your body distort space

01:25:21.800 --> 01:25:25.000
in your dispositional State yeah so we

01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:26.840
come back down

01:25:26.840 --> 01:25:32.239
to um working at Ground you know square

01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:34.000
number one

01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:37.040
[Music]

01:25:37.040 --> 01:25:40.239
um but I think we have a

01:25:40.239 --> 01:25:42.440
better understanding of the

01:25:42.440 --> 01:25:45.080
landscape of the

01:25:45.080 --> 01:25:47.760
good and then we can attune our

01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:51.360
dispositional state so that it's it's

01:25:51.360 --> 01:25:52.920
directed towards

01:25:52.920 --> 01:25:56.520
good it doesn't then then you know

01:25:56.520 --> 01:25:59.159
whatever evaluative reasoning comes out

01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:01.040
of our mouth is besides the point is

01:26:01.040 --> 01:26:03.560
because the way we're holding

01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:06.600
that is really in service to something

01:26:06.600 --> 01:26:09.600
else

01:26:10.480 --> 01:26:13.960
and whether the cats get exterminated or

01:26:13.960 --> 01:26:17.760
not is not really the agenda that we are

01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:21.880
working on um you you you have a strong

01:26:21.880 --> 01:26:24.920
opinion or maybe not and then you move

01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:28.840
on so a lot of

01:26:28.840 --> 01:26:34.560
the action at this level is to have this

01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:38.679
this Beacon of the good it helps if you

01:26:38.679 --> 01:26:41.239
have a realization that the universe is

01:26:41.239 --> 01:26:45.400
good and that changes your dispositional

01:26:45.400 --> 01:26:48.520
state everything else is just human

01:26:48.520 --> 01:26:52.360
activity you're arguing for against

01:26:52.360 --> 01:26:55.040
natural rights or indigenous these

01:26:55.040 --> 01:26:57.000
things are important these are the the

01:26:57.000 --> 01:27:00.960
ways we live our lives but the

01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:04.480
fundamental vow you've taken is to

01:27:04.480 --> 01:27:09.639
dispose of your self as the

01:27:09.639 --> 01:27:11.400
good

01:27:11.400 --> 01:27:15.679
um I think that's what you're talking

01:27:21.119 --> 01:27:24.119
about

01:27:26.080 --> 01:27:28.440
it's not to be in this in the middle of

01:27:28.440 --> 01:27:32.040
a discussion about ethics at work and

01:27:32.040 --> 01:27:33.440
take the high

01:27:33.440 --> 01:27:35.239
morality wellow I don't know we're

01:27:35.239 --> 01:27:38.280
talking about this like you know it it's

01:27:38.280 --> 01:27:43.199
to it's to dispose of yourself such

01:27:43.199 --> 01:27:46.320
that the way you are and the way you're

01:27:46.320 --> 01:27:48.920
holding yourself regardless of what

01:27:48.920 --> 01:27:51.600
you're saying because you will have a a

01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:54.320
small opinion too small meaning relative

01:27:54.320 --> 01:27:57.480
to this higher thing um it's this other

01:27:57.480 --> 01:28:00.679
thing that you're trying to potentiate

01:28:00.679 --> 01:28:03.960
in The Human

01:28:05.119 --> 01:28:07.760
Condition well I'll just I'll just share

01:28:07.760 --> 01:28:11.040
with you my uh note to myself at the top

01:28:11.040 --> 01:28:14.600
of this popup number five note page I

01:28:14.600 --> 01:28:18.280
have made maintaining Vigor takes

01:28:18.280 --> 01:28:21.040
rigor

01:28:21.040 --> 01:28:24.040
yeah

01:28:28.080 --> 01:28:31.000
okay thank you very much uh we've got

01:28:31.000 --> 01:28:32.000
one

01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:35.520
late uh event on Thursday to finish up

01:28:35.520 --> 01:28:38.280
the moral animal it's been very

01:28:38.280 --> 01:28:40.480
helpful uh let it

01:28:40.480 --> 01:28:43.080
resonate in your own words in your own

01:28:43.080 --> 01:28:45.760
terms in your non-

01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:47.639
cult uh

01:28:47.639 --> 01:28:51.320
groups uh and uh we'll see some of you

01:28:51.320 --> 01:28:53.480
on Thursday if not we're going into the

01:28:53.480 --> 01:28:56.400
individuation we'll recap on Thursday

01:28:56.400 --> 01:29:00.719
and kind of segue into the new and last

01:29:00.719 --> 01:29:03.960
module because the last module will also

01:29:03.960 --> 01:29:05.880
try to recap something about the whole

01:29:05.880 --> 01:29:09.080
year and where we're going in 2024 so

01:29:09.080 --> 01:29:10.800
thank you very much this been really

01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:14.960
great uh a few few sessions and I really

01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:17.840
appreciate it thank you so

01:29:17.840 --> 01:29:20.840
much



## Cohort 6

00:00:02.800 --> 00:00:06.399
okay so this is the Sixth and

00:00:06.399 --> 00:00:10.559
final uh session on the moral

00:00:10.559 --> 00:00:14.200
animal and uh we have Adriana here to

00:00:14.200 --> 00:00:17.000
ask a lot of

00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.080
questions which helps us uh recap what

00:00:20.080 --> 00:00:23.199
we've been working on um I suspect

00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:26.640
people will be trying to come in uh in a

00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:30.320
little bit because my internet was down

00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:34.719
and I saw people trying to come in

00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:38.440
um so interestingly enough I just want

00:00:38.440 --> 00:00:39.879
to start

00:00:39.879 --> 00:00:44.039
with um it's been a wild week for

00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:47.840
me because I've had IO mench here for a

00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:50.879
month well it will be a month and then

00:00:50.879 --> 00:00:53.399
two people came on

00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:56.440
Sunday and some from the pop-up school

00:00:56.440 --> 00:00:59.480
and then three more people came on

00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:01.920
Monday

00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:05.640
suay

00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:11.240
and on Sunday night um one of my my

00:01:11.240 --> 00:01:12.439
horses

00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:17.439
died in a in a extremely um surprising

00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:21.759
way she had a aute ex colitis X means

00:01:21.759 --> 00:01:25.320
they don't know what causes it and uh

00:01:25.320 --> 00:01:28.520
most horses 90% of the horses die

00:01:28.520 --> 00:01:32.479
between six and 24 hours uh we tried to

00:01:32.479 --> 00:01:34.560
stabilize her for eight hours and then

00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:36.840
she

00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:40.439
died

00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:44.320
so um was very emotional and really

00:01:44.320 --> 00:01:45.880
traumatic and all these people are

00:01:45.880 --> 00:01:48.759
coming to do a horse workshop and then

00:01:48.759 --> 00:01:51.320
my favorite horse

00:01:51.320 --> 00:01:55.039
and yeah so

00:01:55.039 --> 00:01:58.840
there's it's been a a

00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:02.159
whirlwind kind of

00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.719
uh weak for

00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.200
me and we just had a nice Thanksgiving

00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:11.680
dinner here and um talked a lot about

00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.160
this module you know about the moral

00:02:14.160 --> 00:02:16.280
animal and the dis difference between

00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:19.879
justification and ethics and

00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:22.720
morality

00:02:22.720 --> 00:02:25.519
and

00:02:25.519 --> 00:02:28.200
um yeah so then when I came here and the

00:02:28.200 --> 00:02:30.160
internet was down like okay that's just

00:02:30.160 --> 00:02:32.560
another thing this week you know where

00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:34.239
the internet's going to be down so it's

00:02:34.239 --> 00:02:35.519
one of these

00:02:35.519 --> 00:02:38.440
weeks that I think other people have

00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:40.000
these

00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:45.360
experiences um and there's always this

00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.159
Edge between trying to understand what

00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.599
it means and not being

00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.480
like psychotic about it like everything

00:02:53.480 --> 00:02:56.120
has a meaning like why did she die now

00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:58.200
she's my

00:02:58.200 --> 00:03:01.400
main uh transpersonal horse and stuff

00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:04.840
like that so um yes I just wanted to let

00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.879
everyone know that it's been kind of an

00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.920
interesting week for me and we just got

00:03:10.920 --> 00:03:13.280
off of Thanksgiving weekend really

00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.280
talking a lot about values and value

00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:21.640
setion immorality and blah blah blah um

00:03:21.640 --> 00:03:24.120
so uh this will probably

00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.080
be you know kind of maybe open mic if

00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.439
there's only six of us

00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:34.920
um and yeah so maybe other people can

00:03:34.920 --> 00:03:39.159
check in um but but it's just been kind

00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.959
of strange for me this last this last

00:03:43.959 --> 00:03:46.760
week yeah since what this is Thursday

00:03:46.760 --> 00:03:48.599
since

00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:53.599
Saturday that's maybe we could all check

00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:00.239
in

00:04:00.239 --> 00:04:02.239
I I can check in because I haven't been

00:04:02.239 --> 00:04:03.319
here for a

00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.319
while but I I'm sorry about your horse

00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:10.319
pony so yeah feeling you I had a a goat

00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.239
that died last year and I held the goat

00:04:14.239 --> 00:04:17.000
through it's and it was really I was

00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:18.639
trying to explain to people that don't

00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.680
have animals or even like a goat cuz

00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:22.600
dogs people feel more and horses maybe

00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:25.320
people resonate more but goats were like

00:04:25.320 --> 00:04:28.800
why do you care and I was so heartbroken

00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.680
by my little My Little Goat and I have

00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:34.759
another goat but they were different and

00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:36.960
that goat was a dog goat and this goat

00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:40.120
is a goat goat and I anyway so I was

00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:41.479
really heartbroken for a while so I'm

00:04:41.479 --> 00:04:44.720
just feeling you were in that way

00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.400
and um I'm excited to be here I'm very

00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:50.160
I'm really excited to be here actually

00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.199
because I've been I've been listening to

00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.400
this module so I think I listened to all

00:04:55.400 --> 00:04:59.960
the sessions um maybe I missed one so it

00:04:59.960 --> 00:05:02.560
kind of feels like and I've often

00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.840
interacted with with the pop-up School

00:05:04.840 --> 00:05:06.840
in this past year like that I've been

00:05:06.840 --> 00:05:08.400
listening to most of it and not

00:05:08.400 --> 00:05:11.080
participating much just because of time

00:05:11.080 --> 00:05:13.160
zone and life

00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:14.759
and

00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:18.240
um but I so it feels good to be here

00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:21.600
because I feel like I uh I feel the

00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:23.639
reciprocity with you all but people

00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:25.840
don't feel that with me so I feel I feel

00:05:25.840 --> 00:05:28.440
like I know personalities and I know

00:05:28.440 --> 00:05:30.360
sometimes when Anna speak like oh Anna

00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:31.919
great and you know I'm cheering

00:05:31.919 --> 00:05:35.240
different people on from my headphones

00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.120
my world so I'm kind of nice to just be

00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.280
here and and I'm really excited about

00:05:41.280 --> 00:05:44.520
this specific module it feels really

00:05:44.520 --> 00:05:46.960
timely and there's a lot of confusion

00:05:46.960 --> 00:05:49.479
that I had before without knowing that I

00:05:49.479 --> 00:05:53.199
had and um when I talk to people usually

00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.160
PE things are clumped into one thing

00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.479
like values ethics morality and I I did

00:05:59.479 --> 00:06:02.160
didn't have the capacity or the words or

00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.479
the discernment de developed in me to

00:06:06.479 --> 00:06:10.520
to take that apart so I was just really

00:06:10.520 --> 00:06:12.919
excited it feels really yeah it feels

00:06:12.919 --> 00:06:14.800
great so I have questions but that's is

00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.160
just my check-in

00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.960
yeah feels like it's my time so thanks

00:06:28.960 --> 00:06:31.440
Adriana I really really enjoy having you

00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:34.199
here again in the in the flesh in the

00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:37.680
blood and I'm sorry Bonnie for this big

00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.039
loss yeah I'm really I feel you and

00:06:41.039 --> 00:06:43.160
almost felt like before that there's

00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.000
there must be it's almost like feeling

00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.199
or sensing into that knowing that there

00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:49.800
is something going on and if it is a

00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.880
cosmic thing that arises for us all or

00:06:53.880 --> 00:06:56.639
and and of and how it actually manifests

00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.080
itself on on this individual level I

00:06:59.080 --> 00:07:01.000
find it

00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.639
really I don't have a word for that I

00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:07.440
find it really dot dot dot dot

00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:12.560
so yeah um I've been sitting with

00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.840
especially in this module with the words

00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:19.879
reflexivity and reflexive awareness and

00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:24.000
morality and values and then you and

00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.000
then you've got these Cosmic values

00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.120
where Gaffney and um is talking about

00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:30.400
and

00:07:30.400 --> 00:07:33.360
sometimes it just discombobulates me

00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:37.000
because it becomes such a construct that

00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:39.759
therefore the lived experience is not

00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.560
experienced anymore because you think

00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.159
about it and that

00:07:45.159 --> 00:07:48.759
is something where I'm attaching to

00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:50.879
words and DET the attaching and the

00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:52.840
detaching is happening both at the same

00:07:52.840 --> 00:07:55.479
time with words because I can see the

00:07:55.479 --> 00:07:57.759
importance of the words and I can see

00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.400
this this this specific specificness of

00:08:00.400 --> 00:08:02.680
being so specific with what you're

00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:04.919
saying because it almost grounds

00:08:04.919 --> 00:08:06.560
something it puts something in the

00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.840
ground like yep it's here therefore but

00:08:09.840 --> 00:08:12.360
at the same time it's like a trampoline

00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:14.879
it bounces off and something else

00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.680
happens when when you use that

00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:19.960
word

00:08:19.960 --> 00:08:23.520
so yeah that's my

00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.240
checkin

00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.919
happy to be

00:08:47.920 --> 00:08:50.959
here yeah I'm happy to be here as

00:08:50.959 --> 00:08:53.680
well hi Adriana it's nice to see you

00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:56.800
again very excellent um and Bonnie I'm

00:08:56.800 --> 00:08:59.399
really sorry to hear about your horse

00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.240
it's very very

00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:02.760
sad

00:09:02.760 --> 00:09:04.760
and

00:09:04.760 --> 00:09:06.320
yeah

00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:10.360
um I'm not really wanting to talk that

00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:12.120
much at the moment

00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:15.320
um I'm very much in my heart but it's

00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:19.399
beating very hard at the moment um my

00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:22.120
brother and his wife have been staying

00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:24.440
for a few weeks now they came back from

00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.079
Tahiti cuz she was very ill and I just

00:09:28.079 --> 00:09:31.760
heard just before I came on she has made

00:09:31.760 --> 00:09:34.600
a decision and it was to have

00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:38.000
chemotherapy so that was a big decision

00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:41.079
for her so yeah she has an aggressive

00:09:41.079 --> 00:09:43.880
form of a blood cancer so we don't

00:09:43.880 --> 00:09:46.079
really know how it's all going to work

00:09:46.079 --> 00:09:49.120
out of course but this is the decisions

00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:50.440
been made

00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.480
and yeah so after this I will just sit

00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:56.600
with them and see what's unfolding and

00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.519
where everything's going um but they're

00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.399
pretty much they're based here and then

00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:03.200
they head off sometimes to stay with

00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.640
other family members and

00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:09.000
whatever but apart from that I'm just in

00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:10.360
that space

00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:14.560
and I just do a bit of breathing

00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:18.079
and yeah thank

00:10:28.040 --> 00:10:31.040
you

00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:37.800
um I'm happy to be here as well this has

00:10:37.800 --> 00:10:41.320
been a wonderful um

00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:44.279
experience taking this um being

00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.600
introduced to all of you and having

00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.959
these conversations and

00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:57.440
um yeah um and it seems like it's um

00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:00.160
it's been a heavy week

00:11:00.160 --> 00:11:02.480
for me as

00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:06.000
well um lots of stuff going on that's

00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.519
just happening really lots

00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.079
of lots of things happening lots of

00:11:12.079 --> 00:11:14.839
serious things happening but

00:11:14.839 --> 00:11:18.040
um one thing that came out of the last

00:11:18.040 --> 00:11:20.040
last week's

00:11:20.040 --> 00:11:23.519
um or this whole thing uh was this issue

00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:24.600
of

00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:28.519
morality sort of helped me figure out a

00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:32.920
group situation that I was in in terms

00:11:32.920 --> 00:11:37.320
of recognizing the risks that

00:11:38.079 --> 00:11:41.480
were that were involved in dealing with

00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:42.800
things in

00:11:42.800 --> 00:11:49.079
a Justice way or in some kind of

00:11:49.079 --> 00:11:51.680
um in fact one of the people that I was

00:11:51.680 --> 00:11:53.320
talking to in this group situation

00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:57.600
referred to you Bonnie using the the

00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:01.120
concept of The

00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:06.279
Ledger and how that just doesn't work in

00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:07.040
in

00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:11.000
Morality um and it uh feel that just

00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:13.320
resonated

00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.399
so so it helped figure out helped me

00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:17.360
figure

00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.880
out a way

00:12:19.880 --> 00:12:23.920
to create more potential for the group

00:12:23.920 --> 00:12:25.760
rather trying than trying to settle

00:12:25.760 --> 00:12:27.639
something in a kind

00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.519
of yeah

00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.079
some kind of equ equality

00:12:35.079 --> 00:12:38.120
way so that was really helpful and I'm

00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:40.880
grateful for

00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:46.160
it um yeah and I'm

00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:48.920
really grateful to be here with all of

00:12:48.920 --> 00:12:52.399
you and

00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:53.959
um

00:12:53.959 --> 00:12:56.959
uh

00:12:57.040 --> 00:13:00.839
yeah thank you

00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:13.639
um I'm really happy to be here and I

00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.639
want to be here with everyone so yeah

00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:18.519
I'm really

00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.560
glad

00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:25.040
yeah that we're all together

00:13:27.760 --> 00:13:30.120
yeah

00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:35.399
um so I'm going to take advantage

00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.240
someone um so Adriana You' you've

00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.680
watched some of the videos maybe you

00:13:40.680 --> 00:13:43.920
could help us all by asking questions

00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:45.880
that you have because like a lot of

00:13:45.880 --> 00:13:49.600
times when you're in real life the

00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.199
things start seem to make sense because

00:13:52.199 --> 00:13:54.480
it's dialogical and we're feeling into

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.800
each other um but then when you watch it

00:13:58.800 --> 00:14:01.360
there's more of a territory like did you

00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.680
say this did you say that and um since

00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:09.839
I'm a bit discombobulated today I was uh

00:14:09.839 --> 00:14:13.720
hoping that maybe uh we could we we we

00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:15.959
we could take advantage that's I don't

00:14:15.959 --> 00:14:17.639
know what the other phrase I don't know

00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:19.199
what a better phrase would be but I

00:14:19.199 --> 00:14:21.040
guess it's take advantage of your being

00:14:21.040 --> 00:14:23.880
here and the kind of mind you have which

00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:28.320
is um piercing and always looking for

00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.600
clarity

00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.440
and embodied at the same time so yeah

00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.920
maybe maybe uh you can if you if if

00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:37.519
you're willing to take that

00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:42.000
role oh yes take advantage away that's

00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.360
good I um I have lots of I've actually

00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:48.880
written a couple of pages on this but I

00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:51.519
don't want to if we need I can go there

00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:54.440
but I think there's um something really

00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.600
fresh for me um on

00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.360
I think it was R Raj's question I think

00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.440
it was the the moral animal three I

00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.519
because I I inverted the way I watched

00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.399
so I didn't it wasn't in particular SE

00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.560
sequence so because R asked the question

00:15:13.560 --> 00:15:16.600
and then it prompted I think Phoebe and

00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:19.839
then you there was a um an evolution of

00:15:19.839 --> 00:15:21.759
his question which was like are we

00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.959
exhausting the the way that we're going

00:15:25.959 --> 00:15:29.639
about morality or or um I think we got

00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:33.759
to the melio we got to the to

00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:37.079
the um the individuation but I love the

00:15:37.079 --> 00:15:39.800
way it evolved because it wasn't like an

00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:41.839
abstraction it wasn't like oh we're all

00:15:41.839 --> 00:15:43.519
one like it didn't come from here it

00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.399
came from a completely different a

00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.279
recognition of the experience so

00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.319
um um so that's just a pref frame but my

00:15:54.319 --> 00:15:56.759
question was when you were talking about

00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:59.920
the the the father and the sun like The

00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:01.160
Cutting of the

00:16:01.160 --> 00:16:04.440
rope and the Locking of the

00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.000
eyes um it was a hypothesis you made in

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.560
case not the film actually but if the

00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:12.639
son if the father recognized that the

00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:14.360
son would be traumatized and he was more

00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:17.399
of a man than a than a boy and that he

00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:19.800
could um there was a different decision

00:16:19.800 --> 00:16:22.560
to be made in the moment then I was

00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:25.759
thinking I was like okay so then what

00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:27.880
you're saying so the way I interpret it

00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:31.199
is that morality or the moral organ is

00:16:31.199 --> 00:16:33.240
not just

00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.360
internalized in isolation because we're

00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.920
not in a vacuum it's there is um

00:16:39.920 --> 00:16:42.319
relational component to it but of course

00:16:42.319 --> 00:16:45.839
you need to be very attuned to the body

00:16:45.839 --> 00:16:48.360
to start with because then because

00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:49.800
that's what you're going to

00:16:49.800 --> 00:16:52.560
sense but then if you're just locked in

00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:54.800
yourself then you locked in your own

00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:57.399
then you start justifying and then

00:16:57.399 --> 00:16:59.480
effect streams can come and whatever

00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.600
then you you go off so it's a very like

00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:05.319
I was just I think what I was astounded

00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:06.640
about I was like oh my God it's so

00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.959
precise and requires so much of the

00:17:08.959 --> 00:17:11.959
human which I love but I'm like it's

00:17:11.959 --> 00:17:13.360
almost like you need to be present to

00:17:13.360 --> 00:17:16.679
self you need to be present to all the

00:17:16.679 --> 00:17:20.199
contexts and the immediate context like

00:17:20.199 --> 00:17:22.559
there's something happening in that

00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.400
particular time in that particular time

00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.799
and space Junction with you as the as

00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.720
the mechanism of noticing what's

00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.000
happening because the decision is in

00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.919
your court like it's in you and the fine

00:17:38.919 --> 00:17:41.440
tuning felt quite like it felt really

00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.679
beautiful it felt like like like like an

00:17:44.679 --> 00:17:48.760
orchestra but if like the sensory organ

00:17:48.760 --> 00:17:52.679
the organs that need to be awake for

00:17:52.679 --> 00:17:56.760
that to happen um felt like an odd form

00:17:56.760 --> 00:17:58.960
in a way and I was just wonder wondering

00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:00.159
if

00:18:00.159 --> 00:18:02.760
uh and also holding that you don't know

00:18:02.760 --> 00:18:04.600
the result so you have to still you

00:18:04.600 --> 00:18:06.919
don't know but that's the closest you

00:18:06.919 --> 00:18:11.360
can get to the decision is that

00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:14.120
reciprocity with everything that

00:18:14.120 --> 00:18:15.480
particular

00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.919
immediate person um that will be

00:18:18.919 --> 00:18:20.559
affected by your decision most

00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.120
immediately and your your body as the

00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:26.320
mechanism of choice so just that's how I

00:18:26.320 --> 00:18:28.919
was make making sense of everything that

00:18:28.919 --> 00:18:32.400
you said and was said in the sessions

00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:35.760
and I don't know just want to oh that

00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:38.360
actually it's not a cookie cutter that

00:18:38.360 --> 00:18:39.840
people try to make it into a cookie

00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:41.600
cutter thing like okay so now we know

00:18:41.600 --> 00:18:44.679
what Mor morality is and then we we pick

00:18:44.679 --> 00:18:47.360
it and we box it and then even if we

00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:49.400
have all the components that were said

00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:53.080
here then we lose it because we can't we

00:18:53.080 --> 00:18:55.240
we can't do it we have to be just the

00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.000
commitments is the stakes are high the

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.960
commit commitments whole body whole

00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.360
presence whole

00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:06.600
um yeah anyway and the hardship of that

00:19:06.600 --> 00:19:07.919
so then like what do you do with that

00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:10.240
like it's

00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:13.760
hard and and and this beauty of it you

00:19:13.760 --> 00:19:16.120
know with that this is exactly this

00:19:16.120 --> 00:19:19.400
thing we talked about at dinner tonight

00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.880
and some insights came and one of the

00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.520
insights is

00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:30.240
um

00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:33.600
so I love that thing that you did yeah

00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:36.120
you told it perfectly like at first he

00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:39.080
was dealing with the boy that he thought

00:19:39.080 --> 00:19:41.320
the person was maybe the boy became the

00:19:41.320 --> 00:19:43.840
man right then and there like we don't

00:19:43.840 --> 00:19:48.400
know it's a it's a story right

00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.880
but one of the things we did in this

00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:55.280
module is we started off by having a

00:19:55.280 --> 00:19:57.240
breakout room of like when you were a

00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.200
kid and you knew

00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.960
knew that something the adults were

00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.080
doing wasn't

00:20:04.080 --> 00:20:07.600
good and we felt into the biomarker

00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:10.200
that's a word we use here it's kind of

00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.240
not the most attractive word but the the

00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:14.919
the Instinct of the

00:20:14.919 --> 00:20:17.760
muscle that told you that because

00:20:17.760 --> 00:20:20.600
because we're too young to think blah

00:20:20.600 --> 00:20:22.720
blah blah blah and justification and

00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:25.919
this and that we just

00:20:25.919 --> 00:20:30.159
just something's measuring right

00:20:30.159 --> 00:20:34.120
and so we were talking about um this led

00:20:34.120 --> 00:20:37.120
us into and I'll come back up to what

00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.240
you said so this led us

00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:42.200
into the question of what is what is

00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.960
measuring so someone said well it's the

00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.159
body is measuring and I said yes it's a

00:20:49.159 --> 00:20:52.840
biomarker um and when you're when you're

00:20:52.840 --> 00:20:55.080
talking

00:20:55.080 --> 00:20:58.640
about like okay this this year we've

00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.520
been putting the Mind back in the body

00:21:00.520 --> 00:21:02.360
and the body back into nature it's

00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:06.600
always like like finding the continuity

00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:08.760
and we were talking about

00:21:08.760 --> 00:21:11.640
how let's say a female

00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:13.200
cat

00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.679
uh a baby kind of like you know how they

00:21:16.679 --> 00:21:19.080
start wandering off and the female cat

00:21:19.080 --> 00:21:22.520
like will go and come back here right

00:21:22.520 --> 00:21:26.360
but let's say the baby wanders off and

00:21:26.360 --> 00:21:29.159
there's a raccoon there dog there well

00:21:29.159 --> 00:21:30.000
the

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.960
female will fight the dog so it doesn't

00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.559
feel good in its body like it's

00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:41.400
painful but there has to be some

00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.960
mechanism in which it's good for the

00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.440
female cat to do this right so this is

00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.640
at a very kind of uh and and if the if

00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.080
the darwinian come and say well no it's

00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:58.679
just been selected by Pro

00:21:58.679 --> 00:22:01.080
it's just been selected by Evolution

00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:05.600
because pro-social actions uh

00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:10.880
extend um you know they select for

00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.159
themselves I I don't worry about that

00:22:13.159 --> 00:22:15.200
because I say but if it's not doesn't

00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.240
feel good in the animal there's got to

00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.279
be some kind of satisfaction at the

00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.080
individual level and so we were talking

00:22:22.080 --> 00:22:26.360
about how like like that's the same

00:22:26.360 --> 00:22:29.360
muscle that the child

00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:34.679
uses to feel that you know that there's

00:22:34.679 --> 00:22:36.559
something not good like it's the same

00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.080
muscle comes from our animal nature

00:22:39.080 --> 00:22:41.840
except as humans there's a whole lot

00:22:41.840 --> 00:22:43.840
more complexity that we're trying to

00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:48.200
evaluate but it comes from this this

00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.640
this embodied feeling right so this

00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.640
notion of something in our bodies can

00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.480
separate suffering and pain

00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.919
from this notion of

00:23:00.919 --> 00:23:04.320
good and then we talked about like when

00:23:04.320 --> 00:23:06.120
you're talking about values you're

00:23:06.120 --> 00:23:08.880
talking about something that's much more

00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.919
uh representational thinking like you're

00:23:11.919 --> 00:23:14.559
adjudicating values and this and that

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:19.159
okay so here's the interesting thing is

00:23:19.600 --> 00:23:23.919
that this experience of the good is

00:23:23.919 --> 00:23:25.880
higher than the values right because the

00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:28.840
values are only they're not values are

00:23:28.840 --> 00:23:32.880
not all good in all

00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:38.400
contexts so this notion of the good is a

00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.240
higher

00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:44.240
thing but it comes from deeper in the

00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.480
stack and this is the whole point of

00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:49.440
putting the Mind back into the body and

00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.360
the back in the nature that the higher

00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:55.679
universals that our mind accesses as a

00:23:55.679 --> 00:23:58.640
human are actually

00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:01.480
deeper in the

00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.880
stack it's hard for us to understand

00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:06.880
because we have higher and lower we

00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.240
don't have this yeah

00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:13.240
so

00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:16.520
so

00:24:16.520 --> 00:24:19.600
your work toward you know it's eart tol

00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:22.000
said the eyes that I look for God and

00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.880
the eyes that look for me you know

00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.279
you're climbing up to God and God is

00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:28.440
also

00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.720
deeper in the stack because it's hard

00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.760
for us to have a mental model of but now

00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:37.360
we have a mental model that shows this

00:24:37.360 --> 00:24:39.440
is true all the way

00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.279
through you know the

00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.159
stack um there's something in animals

00:24:45.159 --> 00:24:47.640
that I don't it's I don't want to have

00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:50.559
pain that's not good for me from an

00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:52.159
ALICE

00:24:52.159 --> 00:24:54.480
entric but there's

00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.480
something even ducks have it like you

00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:59.880
take a young male

00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:02.679
duck and when they're scared they just

00:25:02.679 --> 00:25:05.399
run after their

00:25:05.399 --> 00:25:10.120
moms but once they have a mate and

00:25:10.120 --> 00:25:12.320
something a predator's around they run

00:25:12.320 --> 00:25:14.960
after their Predator I mean they they've

00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.480
already learned that it's really scary

00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:18.559
and

00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.360
99.9% of them are going to

00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:24.760
die but there's some

00:25:24.760 --> 00:25:28.640
good right like this muscle for this

00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.200
higher good is in the animal body at a

00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.320
very primitive

00:25:34.320 --> 00:25:37.279
level um and then with us there's much

00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.480
more complexity in terms of what we're

00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:42.600
dealing with and and stuff I'm not

00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:44.880
saying it's just exact same thing but I

00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.799
think it it comes

00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.880
through I think the muscle is the same

00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.080
the whatever that is because children

00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:55.520
have it like we don't even know what it

00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:57.159
is you and someone might say well the

00:25:57.159 --> 00:25:59.360
oxytocin in what whatever it doesn't

00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:00.760
matter to me because those

00:26:00.760 --> 00:26:03.279
neurochemicals are in animals

00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.520
also so there's something really

00:26:05.520 --> 00:26:08.919
interesed interesting in what we've kind

00:26:08.919 --> 00:26:12.399
of thought about

00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.039
here when we did that first

00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.360
um not sure if I was there but you know

00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:30.360
the when when that prompt was given

00:26:30.360 --> 00:26:32.520
about to think of something that when

00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:34.760
you were a child you felt was wrong

00:26:34.760 --> 00:26:37.399
there was also um a comment made I think

00:26:37.399 --> 00:26:41.159
he made a comment there Berita about and

00:26:41.159 --> 00:26:44.840
how is it for you now that which you

00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:48.559
thought was wrong and I when I reflect

00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.039
on that it it's still wrong and like it

00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:55.039
doesn't change just because I've got

00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:56.840
what more complexity or whatever I've

00:26:56.840 --> 00:27:00.080
got it doesn't change at all it Still

00:27:00.080 --> 00:27:03.200
Remains as something that was wrong and

00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.000
I can't move from that space um and I'm

00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.360
wondering partly in that context if it

00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:13.679
is there any need really to talk about

00:27:13.679 --> 00:27:15.760
that further when I'm I'm just yeah it's

00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:19.399
wrong in the story moving on or what

00:27:19.399 --> 00:27:21.360
action I mean the question of what

00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:25.360
action to take but

00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:27.880
yeah yeah I was trying to open the

00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:29.360
possibility

00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:33.039
that as people got older they Justified

00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.039
it

00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.080
because there's I mean we're not retro

00:27:42.080 --> 00:27:44.120
Romantics we don't think that

00:27:44.120 --> 00:27:47.440
children all of a sudden see reality you

00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.760
know so we're just trying to trying to

00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:53.360
touch into the muscle really um but then

00:27:53.360 --> 00:27:55.559
there's a lot of where you go through in

00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:59.120
life we talked about this is is that

00:27:59.120 --> 00:28:01.919
it's almost

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.000
like not what you experience in your own

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.159
lived experience but what comes down for

00:28:08.159 --> 00:28:13.480
you are these moral systems whose

00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:15.919
purpose is to justify that that muscle

00:28:15.919 --> 00:28:19.000
is not is too

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.960
naive it's almost like you get you get

00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.080
the moral education of the modern

00:28:25.080 --> 00:28:27.640
Western is that like your fun

00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:29.840
fundamental intuition that something is

00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:31.279
wrong is too

00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:35.480
naive so you you you you you there's war

00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:39.840
you think war is bad so you talk about

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:40.919
just

00:28:40.919 --> 00:28:43.640
Wars and you talk about like well it's

00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:44.760
good that

00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:48.559
Ukraine W wins because because Russia's

00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:52.080
got premodern values and the whole thing

00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:55.600
is is to teach you how to not

00:28:55.600 --> 00:28:58.080
trust now

00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:00.559
I'm not saying that that

00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.519
initial intuition in the child is

00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.200
adequate to the complexity of the real

00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:11.279
world but I'm saying most of the

00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:13.240
education in

00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.480
axiology ethics morality and

00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.799
Justice is to convince you that that

00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:24.159
muscle is

00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:28.799
childish and what you learn is how to

00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:32.000
justify not paying attention to

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.360
it so so I mean it's kind of a serious

00:29:36.360 --> 00:29:39.880
claim that our whole education system in

00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:44.279
in in Morality is in the wrong direction

00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.799
it's it's a displacement we displace

00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:50.360
morality with just

00:29:50.360 --> 00:29:54.559
justice so three bombs on me five bombs

00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:58.399
on you because you started it or

00:29:58.399 --> 00:30:02.000
whatever that's Justice right

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:05.159
and we made that distinction between

00:30:05.159 --> 00:30:07.919
Justice ethics which is evaluative

00:30:07.919 --> 00:30:10.039
discourse and

00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:13.039
morality yeah and then there's the

00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:14.840
spiritual

00:30:14.840 --> 00:30:21.039
thieves um so so I was just made I added

00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.799
to that prompt in case it had happened

00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:26.240
to people that they had

00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.919
experienced

00:30:28.919 --> 00:30:32.240
pressure to change

00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:37.360
something yeah to change change that um

00:30:37.360 --> 00:30:38.960
and there's a lot of things that kids

00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.919
don't think is wrong

00:30:41.919 --> 00:30:45.799
like fighting and Rough House playing

00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.600
that then adults like they

00:30:49.600 --> 00:30:53.200
over they make it too wrong you know

00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:55.799
like

00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:58.399
like

00:30:58.399 --> 00:31:00.279
I don't know there's something very

00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.320
strange going

00:31:04.399 --> 00:31:09.720
on something it it just needs we need to

00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.559
be we need to look at

00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:22.399
it like I said and I think in one of the

00:31:22.399 --> 00:31:24.480
sessions you know I go fishing with my

00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:27.679
father and I understood putting a worm

00:31:27.679 --> 00:31:31.960
on a hook it wasn't nice and catching a

00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:34.919
fish but when he took a fish and slammed

00:31:34.919 --> 00:31:37.000
it against The Rock and thought it was

00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.880
funny that seemed wrong to me like

00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:44.880
like and I think people can understand

00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:48.399
that distinction you

00:31:49.080 --> 00:31:52.600
know and I was really young

00:31:52.600 --> 00:31:55.880
so we took the fish home and we prepared

00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.399
them we ate them was a whole cool thing

00:31:58.399 --> 00:32:02.000
but then there was this little subset of

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.720
fishing that seemed

00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.039
wrong I don't

00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.320
know Bonnie um have um there's two ways

00:32:30.320 --> 00:32:33.600
that I'm going one is my own personal

00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:35.480
story with that which I I don't know

00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:37.480
exact I mean I have many but I was just

00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:39.159
thinking I don't know where it fits but

00:32:39.159 --> 00:32:41.519
it's an

00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:43.880
interesting it's interesting to think

00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:46.919
about like so for me was my father

00:32:46.919 --> 00:32:49.679
separated from my mom very

00:32:49.679 --> 00:32:53.320
young but he still felt that he could

00:32:53.320 --> 00:32:55.279
say I love like I would go visit his

00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:58.000
house and he would hug me as if we had

00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.840
developed intimacy which we hadn't and

00:33:00.840 --> 00:33:03.000
he'd say I love you so much and I

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.320
remember

00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:07.320
thinking like how do I be like I didn't

00:33:07.320 --> 00:33:09.120
you know like how do I

00:33:09.120 --> 00:33:11.840
respond because if I respond honestly

00:33:11.840 --> 00:33:14.279
I'm gonna hurt him so it wasn't that he

00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.240
was wrong but it was almost like I knew

00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.320
that I he couldn't cope with the truth

00:33:19.320 --> 00:33:22.279
and um and for a long long time I

00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:24.960
actually didn't even I I struggled to

00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.320
call him like I would walk beside by

00:33:27.320 --> 00:33:28.720
side next to him so I didn't have to

00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:32.559
call him anything cuz Dad didn't feel

00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.720
true but if I called him anything else

00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:37.399
he wouldn't be able to cope with it and

00:33:37.399 --> 00:33:39.960
I was young and

00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.039
I um yeah that was a

00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.120
story yeah anyway no no this is huge

00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:50.919
huge Insight i w to take some time on

00:33:50.919 --> 00:33:52.679
this and it's

00:33:52.679 --> 00:33:56.120
it's because same thing happened to my

00:33:56.120 --> 00:34:00.360
father like I never got traumatized by

00:34:00.360 --> 00:34:03.240
him because I had an

00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:06.799
awareness that he was who he

00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.119
was and I a lot of the people that self-

00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.040
select for my work have this

00:34:13.040 --> 00:34:15.599
relationship with their parents that

00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.800
they understand it's like they're

00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.560
they you know they're older Souls than

00:34:22.560 --> 00:34:25.679
their own parents or something and they

00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.679
there's this there

00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.320
this relationship so we're going to talk

00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:34.359
about individuation and these are people

00:34:34.359 --> 00:34:36.839
who are individuated from their parents

00:34:36.839 --> 00:34:38.560
very early

00:34:38.560 --> 00:34:41.520
on you know what they're doing is not

00:34:41.520 --> 00:34:45.440
right but you're not traumatized by it

00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:47.200
like a

00:34:47.200 --> 00:34:49.280
child and in fact you have more

00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.159
compassion for your parents as limited

00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.200
than they have for you like this is a

00:34:55.200 --> 00:34:57.720
new structure this

00:34:57.720 --> 00:35:02.240
um you'll hear it a lot um in my in my

00:35:02.240 --> 00:35:08.000
work I mean not a lot but

00:35:09.359 --> 00:35:12.560
um 40 years ago this didn't happen this

00:35:12.560 --> 00:35:13.920
was not the

00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.640
relationship um 40 years ago children

00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:19.839
would parent their parents but it was a

00:35:19.839 --> 00:35:21.880
abusive like you had to take care of

00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.960
your parents because like your parents

00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:25.800
guilt Tri tripped you and stuff like

00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.119
that but this isn't awareness that your

00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.560
parents are in a pickle that they can't

00:35:30.560 --> 00:35:32.880
see and you can

00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:36.000
see and it can happen at a very young

00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.240
age like I realized my parents were

00:35:38.240 --> 00:35:40.119
pretending and they didn't know they

00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:41.920
were

00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.440
pretending so you have compassion for

00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:46.839
them because they didn't

00:35:46.839 --> 00:35:48.440
know

00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:52.079
um so this

00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.880
is you see why it doesn't traumatize you

00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.440
in the same way I mean you still might

00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:58.319
have unfilled fulfilled needs because

00:35:58.319 --> 00:35:59.599
you're

00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:04.880
young but you have this

00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.839
this metav view if you want to say you

00:36:07.839 --> 00:36:09.800
have this perspective on them that they

00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.440
don't have on you or that certainly not

00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.920
on themselves but not on not on

00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.599
you um this seems to be an evolutionary

00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:23.520
leap nobody's trying to do this um and

00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:27.880
it happens across all kinds of

00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:31.119
people you know men

00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.520
women rural

00:36:33.520 --> 00:36:36.520
urban

00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.280
uh so when you look at individuation

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:45.680
it's a it's a new kind of individuation

00:36:45.680 --> 00:36:47.839
because you know you're not just trying

00:36:47.839 --> 00:36:52.079
to individuate from your parents you've

00:36:53.640 --> 00:36:55.680
already

00:36:55.680 --> 00:36:58.800
somehow been able to see them in context

00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:02.599
as a little child but this is this is

00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:03.920
very

00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:09.440
interesting um there's no literature on

00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:14.040
it um but it's but

00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:16.599
in my

00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:19.160
experience I meet people like this this

00:37:19.160 --> 00:37:21.800
is kind of

00:37:21.839 --> 00:37:25.280
fundamental uh character building or

00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.440
whatever you want to say in their in

00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.440
their experience

00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:36.960
so yeah just want to say that that just

00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.880
want to reflect that back on you this

00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.000
and you hear it just like she said just

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.960
like Adriana said but I knew if I told

00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.800
him like you're taking

00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:49.880
responsibility for the internal

00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:52.720
relations for the subjectivity for the

00:37:52.720 --> 00:37:55.599
production of good in your own

00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.079
father

00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.200
um and you just

00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:04.319
know so this needs to be looked at more

00:38:04.319 --> 00:38:07.359
I mean when you have your own students

00:38:07.359 --> 00:38:12.160
as you all do um listen for that this is

00:38:12.160 --> 00:38:15.119
happening it's it's a it's a it's a to

00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.880
me I think it's a big deal you don't you

00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:20.040
won't read about it in any of the

00:38:20.040 --> 00:38:21.960
literature seems to be one of these

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.520
leaps of

00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:27.839
Consciousness fun is latent in us this

00:38:27.839 --> 00:38:29.920
is something that yeah it's latent in

00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.400
the system yeah nobody's teaching it we

00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:35.680
don't know how to teach it we don't know

00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:37.680
how we learn it opens up through an

00:38:37.680 --> 00:38:39.680
experience I thought for me it went it

00:38:39.680 --> 00:38:41.560
opened up it's like

00:38:41.560 --> 00:38:43.319
an

00:38:43.319 --> 00:38:45.960
constantly

00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:49.520
um opening up of like an experience

00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:51.839
opens up and it opens up and most of the

00:38:51.839 --> 00:38:54.200
time it's it's like when you talked

00:38:54.200 --> 00:38:56.160
about this trauma when when you

00:38:56.160 --> 00:38:57.760
experence erience something really

00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:00.480
terrible and you can stay present Eyes

00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:04.280
Wide Open then it is not as bad as it is

00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:05.680
when you close your eyes and create a

00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:08.520
story about it is that what you said I

00:39:08.520 --> 00:39:10.920
might have something like that yeah it's

00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:12.680
it's well the children don't create a

00:39:12.680 --> 00:39:15.000
story so we're what we're talking about

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:18.440
is is a is an organ of perception so

00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:20.839
when we think of myth Everything Seen

00:39:20.839 --> 00:39:22.400
perfectly is

00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:25.920
loved somehow you see your parents

00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.200
perfectly they're doing something wrong

00:39:28.200 --> 00:39:29.119
to

00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:33.119
you but you see that they're

00:39:33.640 --> 00:39:39.000
trying it's a it's it's a strange

00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:44.040
reversal in in Psycho dyamics

00:39:44.040 --> 00:39:48.359
right and

00:39:48.839 --> 00:39:51.480
um and you love them even though they're

00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:54.720
like lousy parents or not lousy parents

00:39:54.720 --> 00:39:58.160
but that they're not

00:39:58.160 --> 00:40:01.319
not it's like what I can understand ad

00:40:01.319 --> 00:40:03.240
she could see that her

00:40:03.240 --> 00:40:06.720
father uh was trying to do the thing you

00:40:06.720 --> 00:40:08.880
do when you're a good father but it

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:11.240
wasn't really coming out of him

00:40:11.240 --> 00:40:14.480
internally but instead of just being

00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:18.119
pissed off that her needs were being met

00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:20.800
she could see he was trying something

00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:23.720
but it wasn't working out how does a CH

00:40:23.720 --> 00:40:27.079
you know so so you you're not

00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.680
traumatized because the context is so

00:40:29.680 --> 00:40:34.359
enlarged and you see your father more

00:40:34.359 --> 00:40:36.319
perfectly than he sees you and it

00:40:36.319 --> 00:40:39.000
doesn't traumatize you I mean I'm not

00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.280
saying it's easy and it doesn't have a

00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:46.400
stamp and stuff like that but um um I

00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:50.920
don't this thing has has is is an

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:52.920
interesting phenomenon I think it's at

00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:56.000
the edge of you know I always said that

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.400
that the leaps and Consciousness we're

00:40:58.400 --> 00:40:59.720
not going to know how to do it we're not

00:40:59.720 --> 00:41:01.400
going to be able to teach it we're not

00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.640
going to know how we did it it's just

00:41:04.640 --> 00:41:08.079
Laten in the system and when you see

00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:11.720
enough of these a couple here and there

00:41:11.720 --> 00:41:12.880
[Music]

00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.760
um yeah and it's not like one of these

00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:18.880
these situations like I've I've met a

00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:21.160
lot of people who get are seriously

00:41:21.160 --> 00:41:23.440
traumatized by this kind of thing then

00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:25.400
they go to psychiatrist and then they

00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:26.960
tell a story

00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:29.000
oh yeah I could see my father did the

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:33.160
best he could it's different than than

00:41:33.160 --> 00:41:35.079
this direct

00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:39.280
seeing of what is actually happening

00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:45.720
um so it makes us different and uh

00:41:45.720 --> 00:41:49.640
um there's some new kind of psycho

00:41:49.640 --> 00:41:52.119
personality new kind of subjectivity is

00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:55.240
being borne out of it

00:41:55.240 --> 00:41:58.240
um

00:41:58.520 --> 00:42:00.480
yeah and just to not

00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.680
underestimate the uniqueness of of these

00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:08.040
kinds of experiences whatever for a lot

00:42:08.040 --> 00:42:09.920
of people it happens late in life like

00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:12.599
for in 40 years old or 50 years old you

00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:14.319
see your parent they're dying and

00:42:14.319 --> 00:42:17.400
finally you realize like oh my

00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.200
God they're just people and they tried

00:42:20.200 --> 00:42:24.200
really hard this happens mostly 40 years

00:42:24.200 --> 00:42:26.720
old sometimes 50 years old

00:42:26.720 --> 00:42:30.920
but I'm telling you more and more some

00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:35.359
kids yeah some some some young PE people

00:42:35.359 --> 00:42:38.359
see it early on it changes the whole

00:42:38.359 --> 00:42:42.000
psycho dnamic of early early

00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:45.200
childhood some people never see it most

00:42:45.200 --> 00:42:47.200
people never see their parents that way

00:42:47.200 --> 00:42:49.240
they don't individuate we're we're going

00:42:49.240 --> 00:42:52.599
in to this to this

00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:56.720
module they hold on to it forever

00:42:56.720 --> 00:42:59.240
and then they

00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:05.520
die and the way our culture is going

00:43:05.520 --> 00:43:08.760
with the psych psychology

00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:11.920
industry uh they want to make that more

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.640
and more the

00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.720
case So yeah thank you Adana for

00:43:28.720 --> 00:43:31.359
bringing that

00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.079
up but it's very similar to this muscle

00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:49.920
that knows things are good or not you

00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:52.280
know I mean there's

00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:56.880
some Spectrum along

00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.440
from knowing something's not good to be

00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:03.480
able to see your parents in in context

00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:05.559
there's something similar I think

00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:09.000
happening not quite

00:44:09.839 --> 00:44:12.720
sure you know what it is but there's

00:44:12.720 --> 00:44:15.240
something

00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:27.559
there in some ways what's coming to me

00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:29.520
is all the like your modules are all

00:44:29.520 --> 00:44:33.280
morphing because I was thinking now it's

00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.040
almost as if like when you say about the

00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:38.280
communal self um because everything that

00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:40.119
you're my understanding is that you're

00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:42.200
trying to do is that the concepts that

00:44:42.200 --> 00:44:45.000
we just freeze outside you're going like

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.920
no you have to be the communal self so

00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:50.200
you emanate that and then the community

00:44:50.200 --> 00:44:54.520
arises from that and I see morality like

00:44:54.520 --> 00:44:56.400
there something about the the moral

00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:00.680
animal too and it's almost like when you

00:45:00.680 --> 00:45:03.040
bypass like

00:45:03.040 --> 00:45:05.480
uh there was something about the energy

00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.720
of trying to be communal like so my dad

00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:12.200
was was trying to make it a commun like

00:45:12.200 --> 00:45:15.720
he's trying to make it and he was

00:45:15.720 --> 00:45:18.880
um like reinforcing something that

00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:20.839
actually wasn't there and as a child you

00:45:20.839 --> 00:45:22.319
pick up because it's like it doesn't

00:45:22.319 --> 00:45:24.599
feel like you give a hug and a hug is

00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:28.839
relaxing and when hug is like so it's so

00:45:28.839 --> 00:45:30.760
that's the same with the communal with

00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:32.160
the communal self is almost the

00:45:32.160 --> 00:45:35.400
inversion when you justify

00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:38.119
before the

00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:41.040
arousal of of something and it's not the

00:45:41.040 --> 00:45:44.040
arousal you know that becomes then the

00:45:44.040 --> 00:45:46.319
effect stream and then pet locks itself

00:45:46.319 --> 00:45:49.359
in again it's it's like the res

00:45:49.359 --> 00:45:51.119
responding to

00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.200
that

00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:55.559
um I think Anna was saying something

00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:58.119
about it's

00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:00.599
when I think I'm just locking myself in

00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.079
my own thought now because I'm thinking

00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:04.319
it's really hard I keep going like this

00:46:04.319 --> 00:46:07.559
really hard and as humans it's it's just

00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.920
really hard because um so I see I had an

00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.800
issue with my kids school now and

00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.480
they're trying to solve

00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.160
it and they're punishing like they're

00:46:17.160 --> 00:46:19.040
punishing these little kids that were

00:46:19.040 --> 00:46:22.440
kind of like not naughty they they're

00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.040
pushing the boundaries they're teenagers

00:46:24.040 --> 00:46:26.040
they're pushing the boundaries and there

00:46:26.040 --> 00:46:28.079
is a pattern in the school the the boys

00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:29.880
are trying to push the boundaries in a

00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:32.280
particular way like it's more risky and

00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:33.960
more you know involves other things and

00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:36.200
the girls in a different way but so the

00:46:36.200 --> 00:46:38.200
boys get into trouble like they get into

00:46:38.200 --> 00:46:39.760
trouble and they get

00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.440
punished but I don't see and it's a stus

00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.280
school I mean so it's a it's it's it's

00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:48.440
open-minded you know like to it's but

00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:50.760
it's like there is a confusion because

00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.440
it's beautiful in all sorts of other

00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:56.640
ways and it's almost like they get stus

00:46:56.640 --> 00:46:58.960
philosophy which aspects of his

00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:02.280
philosophy to me feel they're coming

00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:05.880
from where you speak from like that it's

00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:08.920
like it's his emanation like his feeling

00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:10.880
into something and that he's like okay

00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.359
if we do this this is better but then

00:47:13.359 --> 00:47:17.040
people freeze that yes you know without

00:47:17.040 --> 00:47:19.559
the the the capacity and then it becomes

00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:21.440
worse it's almost like becomes a dogma

00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:23.520
and then it's really hard

00:47:23.520 --> 00:47:27.000
to especially in the for with the way

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:28.440
they wrote in the

00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:33.200
40s um you you you people today don't

00:47:33.200 --> 00:47:37.119
understand uh that kind of language yeah

00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:40.920
so um you know we even talked about a a

00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:43.280
couple of times back maybe early this

00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:47.160
year I can't remember how you know

00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:49.040
parents say use your words use your

00:47:49.040 --> 00:47:51.440
words and then people grow up they don't

00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.119
understand words as supposed to like

00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:54.680
reflect something that you feel in your

00:47:54.680 --> 00:47:56.559
body because because we have this

00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:58.839
language Instinct and we know when to

00:47:58.839 --> 00:48:02.839
use the right words and stuff like that

00:48:02.839 --> 00:48:07.160
and it it we don't we don't realize that

00:48:07.160 --> 00:48:09.119
these symbols or representational

00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:13.079
thinking or justification or you know so

00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:15.720
it's really we're we live upside down

00:48:15.720 --> 00:48:19.119
lives we live upside down lives the hug

00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.119
comes from the feeling the hug can't

00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:26.440
give the feeling it's not possible and

00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:29.680
and and everything is upside

00:48:29.680 --> 00:48:33.920
down right so good for him he tried to

00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.480
hug so he could give the feeling but the

00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.480
hug doesn't give the feeling the hug

00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.240
comes from the

00:48:42.240 --> 00:48:44.880
feeling um

00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:47.880
and

00:48:49.240 --> 00:48:52.599
um Even in our own community in the Lial

00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:56.240
web in these people that I won't

00:48:56.240 --> 00:49:00.640
mention because I'm feeling generous

00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:04.559
um that that this the what they're

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.280
saying sounds right but it's Topsy

00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.400
Turvy they're working in a Topsy Turvy

00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.160
Direction the

00:49:13.160 --> 00:49:15.920
signifiers can't make the

00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:18.760
feeling the the signifiers has to come

00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:22.680
from the feeling and they're not bad

00:49:22.680 --> 00:49:25.160
people I look at them the same way you

00:49:25.160 --> 00:49:28.040
look at your father they're trying and

00:49:28.040 --> 00:49:30.960
they're trying really

00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:34.440
hard it's not

00:49:54.520 --> 00:49:56.440
working

00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.920
now having said that there is some hope

00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:04.559
for appealing to the mind and but you

00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.599
have to do it with you know I call it

00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.559
taii with words if you have people were

00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:14.119
in the discore space here

00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:17.280
and this is happening and yet underneath

00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:20.400
you have to keep somehow with your body

00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.799
and your energy and your stuff convince

00:50:23.799 --> 00:50:27.000
people you're not talking to them mind

00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:32.000
right um so it's not

00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:37.880
like it's not

00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:41.079
like I don't use signifiers and

00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:44.079
stuff

00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.760
but it's it's it's the icing on the cake

00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:54.440
it's not the cake right whereas

00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:57.160
yeah

00:50:57.160 --> 00:51:01.599
we live in a Topsy Topsy tury

00:51:24.359 --> 00:51:27.359
world

00:51:48.720 --> 00:51:52.680
Bonnie how do you feel about if I

00:51:52.680 --> 00:51:56.520
say um if I say this

00:51:56.520 --> 00:51:58.440
the simulated

00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.720
self by

00:52:02.160 --> 00:52:04.040
Nature

00:52:04.040 --> 00:52:07.599
um has no concern for other

00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.839
people by Nature not in a bad way

00:52:11.839 --> 00:52:14.280
um

00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:17.680
so concern for no not other people sorry

00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:22.359
consent conscent for others so by Nature

00:52:22.359 --> 00:52:26.079
concern for others involves

00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:30.359
others sorry what do you think I don't

00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:34.680
know okay so let's try to figure out

00:52:34.680 --> 00:52:38.440
what you're asking here um no no I know

00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:45.240
so the simulated self is is

00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:50.920
um a little rep mental representation

00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:57.240
you have of yourself okay so um

00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:06.359
um it's more you know it gives rise to

00:53:06.359 --> 00:53:09.240
like narrative self and just think of

00:53:09.240 --> 00:53:12.079
like avatars and Tik Tock and stuff like

00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:14.880
that I mean their their actual AI is

00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:17.319
helping us or I mean the internet's

00:53:17.319 --> 00:53:21.079
helping us represent our simulated self

00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:23.799
right so the simulated self is not who

00:53:23.799 --> 00:53:26.440
we really are

00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:29.920
um in real life we can put filters on

00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:32.920
what we look like and figure out our

00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:35.920
stuff and fix the background and this

00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:39.119
and that um but the mind is doing that

00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:42.400
with the simulated self it's always it's

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.839
kind of like when you strategize

00:53:44.839 --> 00:53:46.720
conversation you're not just really

00:53:46.720 --> 00:53:49.079
listening and stuff everything is is

00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:53.559
preformed and performed and and so

00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:56.000
that's what the simulated self is is and

00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:00.480
then um

00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:03.799
uh we're going to distinguish that from

00:54:03.799 --> 00:54:06.240
subpersonalities and transitional self

00:54:06.240 --> 00:54:09.359
so when I get pulled over by the cop I

00:54:09.359 --> 00:54:11.319
take on a subpersonality and the sub

00:54:11.319 --> 00:54:13.119
Personnel he's like I didn't know what I

00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.880
was doing and tell me what to do and I'm

00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.640
really nice and stuff so these are we

00:54:18.640 --> 00:54:21.799
have this capacity to just take on the

00:54:21.799 --> 00:54:25.160
roll right but we're at choice that

00:54:25.160 --> 00:54:26.400
that's the difference between a

00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:28.240
subpersonality and what I call the

00:54:28.240 --> 00:54:31.000
simulated self so when I go over not so

00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.559
much now because my mother's older and

00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.839
she has demena but when I was in college

00:54:34.839 --> 00:54:36.559
and I would go home from Thanksgiving I

00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:39.119
always sat in the same seat I sat when I

00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:40.359
was a

00:54:40.359 --> 00:54:44.520
kid and I I I just adopted this

00:54:44.520 --> 00:54:47.240
transitional self because it made her

00:54:47.240 --> 00:54:50.720
happy so these are some personalities

00:54:50.720 --> 00:54:52.920
and they're not problematic but they

00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:56.200
need to be at Choice okay

00:54:56.200 --> 00:55:00.799
um when you uh are a teacher and you're

00:55:00.799 --> 00:55:04.240
working with young people um you adopt

00:55:04.240 --> 00:55:06.280
this little voice and stuff like that

00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:09.079
okay so these things are not problematic

00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:11.040
so they're kind of simulations but

00:55:11.040 --> 00:55:13.400
you're at choice for

00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.559
them and then there's a simulated self

00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:19.720
where like you really think that's more

00:55:19.720 --> 00:55:24.000
like you like um

00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:25.920
um

00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:28.520
you lose sight that it's and and plus

00:55:28.520 --> 00:55:30.280
it's not in service to any of these

00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:32.799
other social roles it's in service to

00:55:32.799 --> 00:55:38.799
some something that's more private and

00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:44.640
problematic um so

00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:48.640
so if we take Adriana's example we're

00:55:48.640 --> 00:55:52.720
not sure the way she told it was as if

00:55:52.720 --> 00:55:56.319
her father may have felt he didn't know

00:55:56.319 --> 00:55:59.520
what else to do and he may have felt bad

00:55:59.520 --> 00:56:01.160
that he didn't he didn't have anything

00:56:01.160 --> 00:56:05.200
to put in the place of this pretend self

00:56:05.200 --> 00:56:08.960
he may have known that and then and yet

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:11.039
he didn't know what else to put in the

00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:15.960
place of it so um but a simulated

00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:20.000
self uh would not that that difficulty

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:23.400
would not be transparent to them at

00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.960
all because they live the idea of

00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:30.480
themselves right so do you see what I'm

00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:33.799
saying like it it's equally posible and

00:56:33.799 --> 00:56:37.200
the way she held it that he felt like

00:56:37.200 --> 00:56:39.000
that was all he could do and it's not

00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:41.640
enough but he didn't have anything else

00:56:41.640 --> 00:56:44.119
he didn't know what else to put in there

00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:47.240
except the pretend good

00:56:47.240 --> 00:56:49.559
father um so that would be more like a

00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:53.200
subpersonality that he was gifting his

00:56:53.200 --> 00:56:58.319
child but the simul itself is like

00:57:01.200 --> 00:57:04.160
this it's more pricious because you

00:57:04.160 --> 00:57:06.000
think it's the real self and you think

00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:09.760
everything else is kind of

00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:15.400
a a performance right

00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:17.720
so I forgot what your question is but I

00:57:17.720 --> 00:57:19.960
know part of it had to do with simulate

00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:22.960
itself

00:57:23.799 --> 00:57:26.640
um

00:57:26.640 --> 00:57:29.839
if I could think of a truly example of a

00:57:29.839 --> 00:57:34.599
truly simulated s it's

00:57:38.559 --> 00:57:42.280
like oh people who think who will argue

00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:45.680
that reality is

00:57:45.680 --> 00:57:47.880
constructed but they would never run in

00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:49.520
front of a

00:57:49.520 --> 00:57:51.599
car

00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:54.680
because there's a real self and that act

00:57:54.680 --> 00:57:56.640
like like that and then there's this

00:57:56.640 --> 00:57:59.839
self that thinks

00:58:00.640 --> 00:58:03.440
like what they can think of is true and

00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.640
they live in this thing they can think

00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:08.599
of as true

00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:13.640
and and can I um oh sorry bunny I was

00:58:13.640 --> 00:58:17.359
just gonna give a tab on on what catala

00:58:17.359 --> 00:58:20.119
offered and then see it lends see if it

00:58:20.119 --> 00:58:22.960
lends because what I was hearing also

00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:26.640
was that was like it was the same things

00:58:26.640 --> 00:58:29.119
that keep coming to me which is like

00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:31.240
well if you're not the simulated itself

00:58:31.240 --> 00:58:34.359
if it's lives in abstraction of an idea

00:58:34.359 --> 00:58:37.520
of self then it's not present and it's

00:58:37.520 --> 00:58:40.480
like the The Compassion where you talked

00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:43.400
about concern for others is a biomarker

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:45.720
it's some maybe like that to use the

00:58:45.720 --> 00:58:49.039
name so something that arises in in the

00:58:49.039 --> 00:58:50.880
presence of another like if I have an

00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.200
idea of what a Israeli is or Hamas

00:58:54.200 --> 00:58:55.440
whatever that's it's a different thing

00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:57.039
that actually being with a person in

00:58:57.039 --> 00:58:59.799
front of me and being with that person

00:58:59.799 --> 00:59:03.520
but if but if I'm with that person then

00:59:03.520 --> 00:59:06.720
I'm not um I'm not being the the

00:59:06.720 --> 00:59:09.039
abstract itself I'm being

00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.720
the in like putting the Mind back into

00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:14.359
the body so I can't have a an i

00:59:14.359 --> 00:59:17.480
necessarily I can't hold to my ideas too

00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:20.000
strongly and if I do hold my ideas too

00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.000
strongly it prevents it's almost like it

00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:25.559
prevents me from being in the body

00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:27.559
enough to to

00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:29.680
feel what I

00:59:29.680 --> 00:59:32.319
um okay I have an example that just came

00:59:32.319 --> 00:59:34.280
to me I actually thought I wasn't going

00:59:34.280 --> 00:59:36.880
to lie like there was a so my heart was

00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:39.799
closed to a person because something

00:59:39.799 --> 00:59:41.319
like it's not like people know each

00:59:41.319 --> 00:59:45.039
other here too much to tell stories but

00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:48.480
I thought I thought that um I wasn't

00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:52.039
gonna like a certain person but actually

00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:54.319
so that was my thought but actually when

00:59:54.319 --> 00:59:57.079
I said sat in front of that person that

00:59:57.079 --> 00:59:59.240
person is like there's nothing like in

00:59:59.240 --> 01:00:01.920
the body what sitting and two humans

01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.280
having a conversation there was just

01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:06.920
Beauty and I could see that I was like

01:00:06.920 --> 01:00:10.640
ah I could if I had held that Vision

01:00:10.640 --> 01:00:13.160
that that person did this and this and

01:00:13.160 --> 01:00:15.520
that it would actually have prevented me

01:00:15.520 --> 01:00:17.599
from having such a really lovely

01:00:17.599 --> 01:00:19.640
experience that this person is actually

01:00:19.640 --> 01:00:23.520
nothing that I was creating because of

01:00:23.520 --> 01:00:26.039
stories or construct

01:00:26.039 --> 01:00:29.960
or but again it takes me so I don't know

01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.200
if that's that's the first thing that

01:00:32.200 --> 01:00:34.280
came yeah and I don't know I'll just

01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:36.440
stop there no no and we'll just go

01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:37.880
that's great thank you for helping me

01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:40.200
out there so we'll just go a little

01:00:40.200 --> 01:00:41.720
further

01:00:41.720 --> 01:00:44.319
because if you're if you know it's a

01:00:44.319 --> 01:00:46.880
story about someone and and you're

01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:50.280
wondering you're still but the simulated

01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:54.640
self lives in that story and has these

01:00:54.640 --> 01:00:58.520
fake arguments inside their head with

01:00:58.520 --> 01:01:00.400
the other person and this and that now

01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:03.480
you're in too deep right so that's so

01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:05.760
that's what the simulat it's one thing

01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:09.880
to have a simulated environment like

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:11.880
where you simulate I but that person

01:01:11.880 --> 01:01:15.319
this and that and it's still an object

01:01:15.319 --> 01:01:17.559
but then when you simulate yourself

01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:19.880
inside of that

01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:24.160
argument now it's very very deep and and

01:01:24.160 --> 01:01:26.599
uh I I was talking to a friend of mine

01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:29.960
who's psychotic and he he's getting it

01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:33.480
he's and he's like he calls it magnetism

01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:37.400
the story starts to be so magnetic that

01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:41.119
now he he's learned to stop that part

01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:43.319
like all these conspiracy stories but

01:01:43.319 --> 01:01:46.960
then when if he's not here looking at

01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:48.160
all this

01:01:48.160 --> 01:01:51.799
craziness and then he goes into it

01:01:51.799 --> 01:01:56.520
that's the simulated self so um yeah so

01:01:56.520 --> 01:02:00.680
so there's two steps um and we can

01:02:00.680 --> 01:02:02.920
simulate hypothetical and hypothetic

01:02:02.920 --> 01:02:05.160
environments but as long as they're

01:02:05.160 --> 01:02:07.640
object like in our mental environment

01:02:07.640 --> 01:02:10.079
but then when the self

01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:14.200
itself gets simulated inside of it uh

01:02:14.200 --> 01:02:19.160
then it's then it's extremely

01:02:23.359 --> 01:02:26.359
problematic

01:02:27.240 --> 01:02:29.720
I would like to ask a question or just

01:02:29.720 --> 01:02:33.319
share an experience here as well just to

01:02:33.319 --> 01:02:36.720
make sure that I want to be more have

01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:40.760
more clarity here for me if I can

01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.640
um when the other day um a guy came

01:02:44.640 --> 01:02:48.160
around to he's going to well he already

01:02:48.160 --> 01:02:50.760
has done it but he was the we were

01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:53.799
having a discussion about my deck which

01:02:53.799 --> 01:02:56.799
needed um to be sanded and it needed to

01:02:56.799 --> 01:02:59.240
be

01:02:59.240 --> 01:03:01.640
um it just needed a whole lot of stain

01:03:01.640 --> 01:03:05.079
put on it but we had what I feel was a

01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:07.079
conversation which was a simulation

01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:08.000
because we're talking about we're going

01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:09.799
to do this and what about that

01:03:09.799 --> 01:03:13.000
and that seemed to me to be quite fine I

01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:15.319
didn't have any problem with that as a

01:03:15.319 --> 01:03:18.400
simulation um it got problematic a

01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:21.359
little bit um when he started to get

01:03:21.359 --> 01:03:23.880
anxious about oh but what about this and

01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:26.400
what about and what about that and then

01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:28.599
I just simply said well look I think we

01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:29.680
can agree

01:03:29.680 --> 01:03:33.079
on and he said yeah we can I said so

01:03:33.079 --> 01:03:35.599
let's make the rest of it an experience

01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:37.880
an experiment and see what happens and

01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:39.920
let's not get paranoic about the risk

01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.920
factor who gives us stuff anyway so that

01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:46.599
for me seemed quite a fine simulation

01:03:46.599 --> 01:03:48.599
but sometimes when I'm

01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:52.400
talking or it's more yes sometimes when

01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:54.799
I'm talking with people not on a lot in

01:03:54.799 --> 01:03:57.520
my everyday life it's more it can be

01:03:57.520 --> 01:04:00.400
more in some podcasts that I'm in or it

01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:03.079
can be when I'm listening to podcasts I

01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:05.640
hear people with these what you call

01:04:05.640 --> 01:04:08.480
them I suspect what I'm trying to grasp

01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:11.200
is the simulation they're talking about

01:04:11.200 --> 01:04:14.480
it just feels mad to me it's absolutely

01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:17.039
mad and I I have said this to a couple

01:04:17.039 --> 01:04:19.440
of times I just want to to talk to them

01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:22.599
and say look do you have kids are you

01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:23.839
going to let them go and play on the

01:04:23.839 --> 01:04:24.920
motor

01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:28.839
it's like it's just it's just for me it

01:04:28.839 --> 01:04:32.640
is just ridiculous I can't take it that

01:04:32.640 --> 01:04:37.279
seriously when they go into that space

01:04:37.279 --> 01:04:41.039
and yet I hear you sometimes Bonnie

01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:44.720
saying that that kind of mind and that

01:04:44.720 --> 01:04:47.839
way that we're moving is quite dangerous

01:04:47.839 --> 01:04:50.640
like and I heard Zack Stein talking

01:04:50.640 --> 01:04:53.799
about AI in this regard of what's going

01:04:53.799 --> 01:04:56.640
to be done and what could be done and

01:04:56.640 --> 01:04:59.359
can you speak to that a little

01:04:59.359 --> 01:05:02.160
bit yeah I love your story about the

01:05:02.160 --> 01:05:04.480
deck so the deck starts off by a shared

01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:06.720
simulation so you don't have to like

01:05:06.720 --> 01:05:09.319
take the wood and put it down and then

01:05:09.319 --> 01:05:11.920
right so you're you're imagining you're

01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:14.440
trying to imagine each other and saying

01:05:14.440 --> 01:05:16.440
well if we took the wood here so this is

01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:18.680
the good thing about being able to

01:05:18.680 --> 01:05:20.920
simulate things even animals can

01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:24.440
simulate but then if you go like oh but

01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:26.880
what if the tree and then my kid falls

01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.039
in like maybe we should put metal on

01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:30.520
there because my kid might break their

01:05:30.520 --> 01:05:33.039
leg and and all of a sudden you're in

01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:36.200
your simulation like like this

01:05:36.200 --> 01:05:40.440
none of this has happened um and you

01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:43.960
know so we like to explore that a little

01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:46.760
because we want to know risks and stuff

01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:50.599
like that but it can get very weird you

01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:52.960
know like especially even on a very

01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:54.880
pedestrian you're like but what if this

01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:57.160
happens are you going to pay me back now

01:05:57.160 --> 01:05:59.520
all of a sudden you see it's gotten to

01:05:59.520 --> 01:06:02.680
be yourself is inside the simulation

01:06:02.680 --> 01:06:04.240
rather than you're simulating the

01:06:04.240 --> 01:06:06.440
environment are you GNA rip me off what

01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:08.520
if like you know you see what I'm saying

01:06:08.520 --> 01:06:10.720
so both of you now are inside the

01:06:10.720 --> 01:06:13.480
simulation versus you're just simulating

01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:16.640
your environment it happens all the time

01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:20.400
even in like business okay so yes it's a

01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:23.160
beautiful ordinary example of the

01:06:23.160 --> 01:06:24.680
difference between

01:06:24.680 --> 01:06:26.839
simulating the environment simulating a

01:06:26.839 --> 01:06:29.079
hypothetical environment and then all of

01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:31.920
a sudden getting your identity sucked

01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:36.839
into this simulation which is uh is is

01:06:36.839 --> 01:06:42.160
problematic okay okay so now we're going

01:06:42.160 --> 01:06:47.039
to take the same thing and uh say what's

01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:48.200
happening when people talk about the

01:06:48.200 --> 01:06:50.599
metac crisis is that I think that's

01:06:50.599 --> 01:06:54.039
where you're going right like so I think

01:06:54.039 --> 01:06:56.880
think the same thing happens it's just

01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:59.880
it's it's a little trickier because your

01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:02.200
deck is something

01:07:02.200 --> 01:07:04.880
concrete it only has so many steps to it

01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:06.960
so you can tell when you're moving

01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:08.960
whereas something as complex as the

01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:11.760
metac crisis is already so abstract it's

01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:13.720
very hard to

01:07:13.720 --> 01:07:17.240
know when that thing is

01:07:17.240 --> 01:07:21.319
breached right because you're already in

01:07:21.319 --> 01:07:22.920
such

01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:24.559
abstract

01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:27.119
territory um but I would agree that

01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:29.440
there's some threshold where the exact

01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:30.640
same thing

01:07:30.640 --> 01:07:35.400
happens um and

01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:38.279
uh yeah I think I think the phenomenon

01:07:38.279 --> 01:07:41.240
is the same at a higher level of

01:07:41.240 --> 01:07:43.880
obstruction um

01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:46.880
so

01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:50.000
uh yeah is that what you're were asking

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:52.960
like there so so that that muscle that's

01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:54.920
trying to figure out when the threshold

01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:58.640
is breached on your deck um is still is

01:07:58.640 --> 01:08:01.920
also trying to operate in these higher

01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:02.920
level

01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:05.760
abstractions um okay some of them may

01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:09.559
just I mean if I think about it some of

01:08:09.559 --> 01:08:13.480
them even start already too far into the

01:08:13.480 --> 01:08:15.920
simulated self you know like I'll talk

01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:18.839
about like when you when you

01:08:18.839 --> 01:08:21.799
imagine uh Armageddon like what's the

01:08:21.799 --> 01:08:24.040
movie in your head right what's the

01:08:24.040 --> 01:08:26.400
moving and like how bad is it like some

01:08:26.400 --> 01:08:29.640
people like oh well you

01:08:30.679 --> 01:08:33.480
know I won't be able to drive I'll lose

01:08:33.480 --> 01:08:36.480
my car I I

01:08:36.480 --> 01:08:39.640
like like how

01:08:39.640 --> 01:08:42.239
how when people talk about like the end

01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:45.440
of civilization what what what movie is

01:08:45.440 --> 01:08:47.400
running in their head like and they're

01:08:47.400 --> 01:08:49.960
and they're the protagonist in that

01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:52.600
movie um

01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:55.799
versus yeah

01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:00.560
yeah I love that duck ex so yeah it's

01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:03.839
too complicated to go meta and we might

01:09:03.839 --> 01:09:06.120
be able to talk about one

01:09:06.120 --> 01:09:10.400
specific uh uh interview or video or

01:09:10.400 --> 01:09:12.560
something but yeah you're right there's

01:09:12.560 --> 01:09:15.120
there's and I think in many cases you

01:09:15.120 --> 01:09:16.839
feel people coming in and out first

01:09:16.839 --> 01:09:18.960
they're talking about a simulation and

01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:21.560
that's fine and then they both get in

01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:24.040
and then they get out and they get in I

01:09:24.040 --> 01:09:29.359
think up you know if you read my before

01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:32.040
Socrates it was like driving me almost

01:09:32.040 --> 01:09:34.279
mad because was he in his own you know

01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:37.839
the whole thing was like like in like

01:09:37.839 --> 01:09:40.279
very complex in terms

01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:43.759
of what perspective or what theater are

01:09:43.759 --> 01:09:47.759
you gonna are you gonna uh engage this

01:09:47.759 --> 01:09:50.040
thing

01:09:52.440 --> 01:09:54.679
with iess sometimes they were talking

01:09:54.679 --> 01:09:56.480
about ker guard and other times they

01:09:56.480 --> 01:09:59.960
were like inside ker guard and being

01:09:59.960 --> 01:10:02.280
just as mad as

01:10:02.280 --> 01:10:06.520
like these thresholds are

01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:11.679
interesting but I love the fact it all

01:10:11.679 --> 01:10:13.400
these things if you can bring it back

01:10:13.400 --> 01:10:16.960
down to like the structure on a concrete

01:10:16.960 --> 01:10:19.400
level you can understand the same thing

01:10:19.400 --> 01:10:22.920
is happening at these at these it's just

01:10:22.920 --> 01:10:25.640
very hard to

01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:29.880
identify where the thresholds

01:10:33.199 --> 01:10:37.320
are thank you thank you that's

01:10:50.800 --> 01:10:54.640
cool I think this is also like for every

01:10:54.640 --> 01:10:58.080
po you know like some of these

01:10:58.080 --> 01:11:01.080
thresholds are coming down like like for

01:11:01.080 --> 01:11:04.760
someone to be able to say this you know

01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:06.840
you know this meta aware of these kind

01:11:06.840 --> 01:11:10.080
of subtle thresholds is also got a

01:11:10.080 --> 01:11:13.520
problematic side like I guess I'm just

01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:16.400
GNA say this like my horse died right

01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:19.920
well a couple of weeks ago she had a

01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:25.560
tick bite and she had uh a strange edema

01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:29.320
um this just means that she got uh

01:11:29.320 --> 01:11:31.320
swollen in a weird way from the tick

01:11:31.320 --> 01:11:34.600
bite okay this is this is a non thing

01:11:34.600 --> 01:11:38.080
but I had to I hadn't had my um same vet

01:11:38.080 --> 01:11:40.920
because she retired during Co so I I

01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:42.480
established a relationship with a new

01:11:42.480 --> 01:11:45.320
vet and they came down they're wonderful

01:11:45.320 --> 01:11:48.679
people and they came down to uh see my

01:11:48.679 --> 01:11:52.120
horses and she had I had six horses at

01:11:52.120 --> 01:11:53.639
the time I only have five now she she

01:11:53.639 --> 01:11:58.639
had six uh doses of rabies because it's

01:11:58.639 --> 01:12:00.960
illegal to have horses and that give

01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:04.480
them rabies shots but she's cool and she

01:12:04.480 --> 01:12:06.440
didn't give them rabies shots she's like

01:12:06.440 --> 01:12:08.320
oh okay we'll come back for a followup

01:12:08.320 --> 01:12:10.639
but she had to do it because like it's

01:12:10.639 --> 01:12:11.719
legal

01:12:11.719 --> 01:12:15.199
okay so my husband is like since covid

01:12:15.199 --> 01:12:18.520
is like crazy antier like I didn't

01:12:18.520 --> 01:12:20.320
believe in Co vaccinations and stuff

01:12:20.320 --> 01:12:24.040
like that but it it like pushed

01:12:24.040 --> 01:12:27.159
over if she had given those horses a

01:12:27.159 --> 01:12:29.960
vaccine and then two months later a

01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:34.239
perfectly normal horse died in six

01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:37.600
hours it it would have been like a

01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:42.239
nightmare to live in like I was like so

01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:45.679
I do you see how like the the human mind

01:12:45.679 --> 01:12:49.199
is under a lot of

01:12:50.480 --> 01:12:52.440
interesting

01:12:52.440 --> 01:12:57.159
um there's a lot going on there's a lot

01:12:57.159 --> 01:12:58.360
going

01:12:58.360 --> 01:13:02.000
on I was so I was almost more happy that

01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:03.280
she didn't

01:13:03.280 --> 01:13:05.920
vaccinate I said to her I said you know

01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:08.760
you were so

01:13:09.440 --> 01:13:12.760
good CUA I would had to live he I'm

01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:16.040
telling you he would have

01:13:17.199 --> 01:13:20.480
had it would have been

01:13:20.480 --> 01:13:24.040
horrible cuz he my neighbor died di two

01:13:24.040 --> 01:13:26.920
years ago of course old people all

01:13:26.920 --> 01:13:28.960
around here they got vaccinated died of

01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:32.000
bladder cancer and he's convinced it was

01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:33.719
the

01:13:33.719 --> 01:13:35.960
vaccine I mean there are some things

01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:37.760
that I think like I think uh

01:13:37.760 --> 01:13:40.199
cardiovascular disease and young men is

01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:42.159
from the vaccine I'm not saying that I

01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:44.080
don't think but

01:13:44.080 --> 01:13:47.560
like the the interface between these

01:13:47.560 --> 01:13:50.480
thresholds and what is simul this is

01:13:50.480 --> 01:13:53.440
happening everywhere right now it's very

01:13:53.440 --> 01:13:54.639
very

01:13:54.639 --> 01:13:58.719
very uh interesting and

01:13:58.719 --> 01:14:01.400
scary and

01:14:01.400 --> 01:14:04.639
um and also it's kind of what our mind

01:14:04.639 --> 01:14:08.120
does it looks for it looks for causes

01:14:08.120 --> 01:14:10.159
and when there there's none there and

01:14:10.159 --> 01:14:11.679
the stakes are

01:14:11.679 --> 01:14:15.440
High um the Mind goes animist It goes

01:14:15.440 --> 01:14:16.920
into magical

01:14:16.920 --> 01:14:19.920
thinking

01:14:21.639 --> 01:14:26.280
so I had a really really similar um

01:14:26.280 --> 01:14:29.080
thought about the vaccines myself

01:14:29.080 --> 01:14:31.840
because with my sister-in-law with this

01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:35.360
diagnosis that she's had of cancer um I

01:14:35.360 --> 01:14:37.480
was really relieved that she hadn't had

01:14:37.480 --> 01:14:39.679
the vaccine

01:14:39.679 --> 01:14:43.719
oh we don't it would have just added a

01:14:43.719 --> 01:14:47.639
whole new oh I mean I don't yeah yeah

01:14:47.639 --> 01:14:50.840
yeah it's it's and we all share it and

01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:54.199
we're all trying to be

01:14:54.199 --> 01:14:56.960
there's a lightness there's so some of

01:14:56.960 --> 01:14:59.400
this distinction between am I in the

01:14:59.400 --> 01:15:03.080
simulation versus I'm running conspiracy

01:15:03.080 --> 01:15:05.360
theories because I want to know but do I

01:15:05.360 --> 01:15:08.440
get sucked it's this is we're living in

01:15:08.440 --> 01:15:12.560
a very strange time it's the price of

01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:14.760
being meta aware the same thing that

01:15:14.760 --> 01:15:16.679
Adriana was born with and she could see

01:15:16.679 --> 01:15:20.320
in her father that same capacity is

01:15:20.320 --> 01:15:24.440
prone to exaggerate and there's the

01:15:24.440 --> 01:15:26.880
there's no hard boundary so there's a

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:28.920
pass write a passage or something

01:15:28.920 --> 01:15:31.080
they're all very

01:15:31.080 --> 01:15:34.719
similar um it's very very difficult very

01:15:34.719 --> 01:15:36.520
very difficult

01:15:36.520 --> 01:15:40.400
time and something that has been called

01:15:40.400 --> 01:15:43.120
a conspiracy in the old way of talking

01:15:43.120 --> 01:15:45.520
about it sometimes it turns out to be an

01:15:45.520 --> 01:15:48.280
absolute truth anyway so this compounds

01:15:48.280 --> 01:15:52.199
the whole situation and it's

01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:54.520
just

01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:59.040
very very hard and to go I went home um

01:15:59.040 --> 01:16:01.480
I had not been home to see my dad for a

01:16:01.480 --> 01:16:05.000
long time and I went home and he did his

01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:06.760
very best you're saying about doing

01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:09.760
their very best he and my stepmother did

01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:12.040
their very best they they put on it was

01:16:12.040 --> 01:16:13.960
like the return of the prodal daughter

01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:15.760
you know and they did their very best

01:16:15.760 --> 01:16:18.040
they had this amazing meal and my dad

01:16:18.040 --> 01:16:19.840
had met someone who knew me and he had

01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:22.600
this big story that he told but it was

01:16:22.600 --> 01:16:24.880
really interesting because I was

01:16:24.880 --> 01:16:27.920
appreciative and I knew that for them it

01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:29.679
was significant it really mattered that

01:16:29.679 --> 01:16:32.760
I'd come back home to see him and I got

01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:36.679
all of that but it still felt exactly

01:16:36.679 --> 01:16:41.679
like when I was a child when I knew that

01:16:41.679 --> 01:16:44.520
what they said was not real there was

01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:47.120
something always unreal and there was

01:16:47.120 --> 01:16:49.760
this realization at a very young age

01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:53.400
well young nine I think yeah that you

01:16:53.400 --> 01:16:55.440
know you have like I already sort of

01:16:55.440 --> 01:16:58.480
knew it but then for me I was like ah I

01:16:58.480 --> 01:17:01.080
have to make my own choices as a sense

01:17:01.080 --> 01:17:03.719
that I'm on my own here I must choose

01:17:03.719 --> 01:17:07.120
for myself and that was really powerful

01:17:07.120 --> 01:17:08.679
and I

01:17:08.679 --> 01:17:12.760
did yeah but this didn't happen 40 years

01:17:12.760 --> 01:17:15.760
ago your parents were were like oh yeah

01:17:15.760 --> 01:17:17.440
my father was this and that and I had to

01:17:17.440 --> 01:17:21.280
get out of the house this this is these

01:17:21.280 --> 01:17:25.040
things you're saying are are

01:17:25.040 --> 01:17:30.639
new but I'm quite old no but but that's

01:17:30.639 --> 01:17:32.800
okay I'm quite old too but and this

01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:36.159
happens when we are young but this this

01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:37.520
this is

01:17:37.520 --> 01:17:40.960
not prevalent in even you know young

01:17:40.960 --> 01:17:43.639
people but it was never the

01:17:43.639 --> 01:17:47.360
case like

01:17:47.360 --> 01:17:51.600
like you mean for that for people to be

01:17:51.600 --> 01:17:53.639
this for young people to have a

01:17:53.639 --> 01:17:55.320
perspective on their parents that the

01:17:55.320 --> 01:17:57.520
parents didn't have on

01:17:57.520 --> 01:18:01.800
themselves um and this is a huge if

01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:04.280
you're looking for gser and what's Laten

01:18:04.280 --> 01:18:07.400
in the system we don't know what what it

01:18:07.400 --> 01:18:09.639
what'll end up being this is this is a

01:18:09.639 --> 01:18:11.159
huge

01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:14.159
change

01:18:15.159 --> 01:18:18.040
um and what's interesting is not the

01:18:18.040 --> 01:18:19.840
content but like what we did in that

01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:22.320
first example what is that that gives

01:18:22.320 --> 01:18:24.800
you that

01:18:24.800 --> 01:18:27.719
knowing and then later on it grows up

01:18:27.719 --> 01:18:29.880
and the world gets complicated and it

01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:32.440
melds with conspiracy theory because you

01:18:32.440 --> 01:18:34.880
know something's not the same and it

01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:36.840
gets all very weird but I'm just saying

01:18:36.840 --> 01:18:39.679
that there's something really Innovative

01:18:39.679 --> 01:18:41.560
in the human

01:18:41.560 --> 01:18:49.320
system um that is is is

01:18:51.920 --> 01:18:54.920
happening

01:18:55.560 --> 01:18:57.239
there's something about the nature of

01:18:57.239 --> 01:19:00.360
mind and the nature of psyche so the

01:19:00.360 --> 01:19:03.400
predictive processing and Go creative

01:19:03.400 --> 01:19:04.120
and

01:19:04.120 --> 01:19:07.639
then the the kind of mind and the kind

01:19:07.639 --> 01:19:10.600
of psyche well where it's culture

01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:14.080
conditioned and I'm very curious about

01:19:14.080 --> 01:19:15.159
how

01:19:15.159 --> 01:19:18.159
this dormant I wonder I don't know if

01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:20.639
it's dormant if it's latent or dormant

01:19:20.639 --> 01:19:21.840
this

01:19:21.840 --> 01:19:26.920
capacity that this that we have

01:19:26.920 --> 01:19:31.560
as humans moving to this moral animal or

01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:34.840
even moral Collective like this moral

01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:39.080
organ that we are into this kind of uh

01:19:39.080 --> 01:19:43.040
sorry nature of mind so I don't know I I

01:19:43.040 --> 01:19:45.320
I see here or my body feels something

01:19:45.320 --> 01:19:47.040
here but I can't express it maybe you

01:19:47.040 --> 01:19:50.400
can help me here Bonnie by

01:19:50.400 --> 01:19:54.360
by um so this nature of mind for our

01:19:54.360 --> 01:19:58.199
moral Collective how is that related and

01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:00.480
how can we just cultivate that more and

01:20:00.480 --> 01:20:02.960
more off

01:20:02.960 --> 01:20:08.679
to yeah yeah so okay and Greg and Greg

01:20:08.679 --> 01:20:10.840
and Ras and I are talking about this and

01:20:10.840 --> 01:20:12.480
it's really generative we might do

01:20:12.480 --> 01:20:15.520
another recording one but it's

01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:18.920
like um the kinds of things we're

01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:21.760
talking about Adriana seeing this in her

01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:26.600
father Susan T you know reflecting about

01:20:26.600 --> 01:20:28.360
her parents this notion that they're

01:20:28.360 --> 01:20:30.440
pretending that they don't know they're

01:20:30.440 --> 01:20:32.320
pretending this I think is an

01:20:32.320 --> 01:20:35.000
evolutionary leap in the nature of

01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:38.679
mind but simulating the self the

01:20:38.679 --> 01:20:41.760
justification system Ai and this that's

01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:44.120
just the kind of mind we have today and

01:20:44.120 --> 01:20:46.040
it's getting

01:20:46.040 --> 01:20:49.800
complex so Greg Enrique sees Ai and the

01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:52.280
justification system is complexifying

01:20:52.280 --> 01:20:55.080
two a new type and I'm like no no no no

01:20:55.080 --> 01:20:56.280
no there's

01:20:56.280 --> 01:21:00.880
a that all is just noise and the signal

01:21:00.880 --> 01:21:03.920
is this kind of thing this is the real

01:21:03.920 --> 01:21:07.600
evolutionary leap it's not very

01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:11.080
functional uh we don't know what it's

01:21:11.080 --> 01:21:15.120
doing um and so yeah so that's why we

01:21:15.120 --> 01:21:18.600
make that distinction because the the

01:21:18.600 --> 01:21:20.719
you know there's like the animal nature

01:21:20.719 --> 01:21:22.239
and there's a lot of animals that went

01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:24.600
extinct because not everything that

01:21:24.600 --> 01:21:27.600
happens once you get to this leap is

01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:33.320
interesting um so um

01:21:33.320 --> 01:21:37.239
so now how do we you can teach

01:21:37.239 --> 01:21:42.000
it you you can only observe it and try

01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:46.360
to like if I'm teaching anything and uh

01:21:46.360 --> 01:21:48.600
this was the big argument with Gaffney

01:21:48.600 --> 01:21:51.400
is we're not I'm not involved in a

01:21:51.400 --> 01:21:54.199
lineage this it's Laten in the system

01:21:54.199 --> 01:21:57.679
and I try to reflect that back to people

01:21:57.679 --> 01:22:01.199
because otherwise the culture says it's

01:22:01.199 --> 01:22:04.400
deviant so there's 99% of the culture

01:22:04.400 --> 01:22:06.360
saying this is

01:22:06.360 --> 01:22:09.639
deviant and we need teachers to say ah

01:22:09.639 --> 01:22:11.960
you see you had a perspective on your

01:22:11.960 --> 01:22:13.360
parents that they didn't have on you

01:22:13.360 --> 01:22:15.560
this is something new I don't know where

01:22:15.560 --> 01:22:19.159
it's going to lead to like so for me

01:22:19.159 --> 01:22:22.280
this notion of latency is I mean I teach

01:22:22.280 --> 01:22:24.120
all so because I make distinctions and

01:22:24.120 --> 01:22:25.400
stuff like that but you're always

01:22:25.400 --> 01:22:27.960
looking for it in the

01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:30.239
system and it's important for teachers

01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:32.840
to be able to help make distinctions and

01:22:32.840 --> 01:22:35.880
reflect back that that's what you're

01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:38.480
looking for that's what you're looking

01:22:38.480 --> 01:22:41.120
at um but we don't know how to teach it

01:22:41.120 --> 01:22:42.880
because it's it's an evolutionary thing

01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:45.920
not a developmental

01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:48.920
thing congruence and the coherence and

01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:52.760
the alignment so the three uh axes in

01:22:52.760 --> 01:22:55.199
the origins of self

01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:59.679
then is this a starting point from the

01:22:59.679 --> 01:23:02.600
self that has the congruence the

01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:04.199
coherence and the alignment that goes

01:23:04.199 --> 01:23:06.800
out so it's the enveloping of it all

01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:09.520
instead of so it becomes more is it more

01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:12.120
allocentric then or am I mixing up here

01:23:12.120 --> 01:23:14.840
stuff now at the moment yeah so not

01:23:14.840 --> 01:23:17.520
every heris stic I I have can be mapped

01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:20.320
on everyone else because it's too

01:23:20.320 --> 01:23:23.440
complex so there's a comes a time where

01:23:23.440 --> 01:23:25.040
I always have to tell people don't try

01:23:25.040 --> 01:23:29.560
to map them all on each other um but if

01:23:29.560 --> 01:23:32.719
you remember those three axes there's

01:23:32.719 --> 01:23:36.040
there's animal and then there's you know

01:23:36.040 --> 01:23:39.000
animal mind and then there's human

01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:42.080
psyche mind and then human psyche and

01:23:42.080 --> 01:23:45.000
then there's the Laten self which means

01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:47.320
there's other things that can

01:23:47.320 --> 01:23:50.880
happen um

01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:54.440
um but is it doesn't what we're talk

01:23:54.440 --> 01:23:57.440
these things don't map on that heris

01:23:57.440 --> 01:24:00.480
that well

01:24:00.480 --> 01:24:03.800
um we I call it the moral animal in this

01:24:03.800 --> 01:24:05.880
course because it

01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:08.400
doesn't it doesn't just it's not just

01:24:08.400 --> 01:24:11.639
derived from culture it goes back to the

01:24:11.639 --> 01:24:14.199
fact that animals can distinguish

01:24:14.199 --> 01:24:16.080
something that's painful from something

01:24:16.080 --> 01:24:17.840
that's

01:24:17.840 --> 01:24:20.760
good and it's problematizing the way

01:24:20.760 --> 01:24:23.040
culture has has

01:24:23.040 --> 01:24:24.360
um

01:24:24.360 --> 01:24:27.120
traditionally um dealt with morality

01:24:27.120 --> 01:24:32.280
Justice and ethics but that is just a

01:24:32.280 --> 01:24:35.760
way I can't make all

01:24:35.760 --> 01:24:39.960
theistic um completely coherent uh so I

01:24:39.960 --> 01:24:44.920
wouldn't try to map them all I'm to I

01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:46.719
don't want that either Bonnie but it's

01:24:46.719 --> 01:24:50.480
more like I I see them popping up and

01:24:50.480 --> 01:24:53.800
they and it's more what Adriana is

01:24:53.800 --> 01:24:56.320
trying what I feel from Adriana is this

01:24:56.320 --> 01:25:00.719
embodied really embodied really down um

01:25:00.719 --> 01:25:03.480
to the void energy almost like this

01:25:03.480 --> 01:25:07.560
groundedness where where it arises but

01:25:07.560 --> 01:25:10.199
then to make sense of it or it's not

01:25:10.199 --> 01:25:12.600
making sense of it but to communicate it

01:25:12.600 --> 01:25:16.679
or even transmit it in a way to others

01:25:16.679 --> 01:25:21.880
is to have some vocabulary around it and

01:25:21.880 --> 01:25:24.320
word that arise in that moment when you

01:25:24.320 --> 01:25:25.480
are in

01:25:25.480 --> 01:25:27.560
relationship I don't know if that makes

01:25:27.560 --> 01:25:28.520
any

01:25:28.520 --> 01:25:30.639
sense I'm not sure if I'm making any

01:25:30.639 --> 01:25:32.920
sense to myself let's go

01:25:32.920 --> 01:25:34.600
back

01:25:34.600 --> 01:25:37.800
um so the moment I'm me I'm talking to

01:25:37.800 --> 01:25:40.040
sue for example a lot about this we we

01:25:40.040 --> 01:25:41.880
talk about your models and we have a lot

01:25:41.880 --> 01:25:45.119
of fun with it and then we go out in the

01:25:45.119 --> 01:25:47.960
real world and just play with it or it

01:25:47.960 --> 01:25:50.480
plays with us it's like

01:25:50.480 --> 01:25:52.639
this and then all of a sudden sudden

01:25:52.639 --> 01:25:56.320
those words become psychoactive in a way

01:25:56.320 --> 01:25:58.920
because they mean something it's not a

01:25:58.920 --> 01:26:01.199
word anymore so it's almost like you

01:26:01.199 --> 01:26:03.520
have to be really precise to use

01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:07.000
something in a specific setting in a

01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:12.560
specific way for it to be making any

01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:15.480
sense why are we speaking because it's

01:26:15.480 --> 01:26:17.520
Duality by

01:26:17.520 --> 01:26:21.840
itself so we try to we TR work really

01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:25.400
hard using words that are attached to

01:26:25.400 --> 01:26:29.000
biomarkers even the word biomarker is a

01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:33.000
is a word um and your body can

01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:35.440
differentiate you know language is twoo

01:26:35.440 --> 01:26:39.159
course grained your body so

01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:42.320
so um I suspect that you and Susan when

01:26:42.320 --> 01:26:44.760
you're getting into like real kind of

01:26:44.760 --> 01:26:47.199
subtle territory you can use some of

01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:50.920
these words we agreed to make a

01:26:50.920 --> 01:26:52.880
distinction um

01:26:52.880 --> 01:26:53.639
is

01:26:53.639 --> 01:26:56.719
helpful um so the what she just said

01:26:56.719 --> 01:26:58.520
about

01:26:58.520 --> 01:27:01.239
her experience with this guy in the deck

01:27:01.239 --> 01:27:03.280
like just go out to the grocery store

01:27:03.280 --> 01:27:05.280
and try to try to

01:27:05.280 --> 01:27:08.119
explain that to someone in the grocery

01:27:08.119 --> 01:27:10.080
store they would have no idea what

01:27:10.080 --> 01:27:11.920
you're talking about because we haven't

01:27:11.920 --> 01:27:15.159
they haven't distinguished words

01:27:15.159 --> 01:27:17.440
that are attached to different

01:27:17.440 --> 01:27:24.119
experiences in your body like so um

01:27:24.719 --> 01:27:27.480
uh and then probably between you and

01:27:27.480 --> 01:27:30.760
Susan you have your own like

01:27:30.760 --> 01:27:34.400
vernacular um so um somebody could use a

01:27:34.400 --> 01:27:36.239
word like placeholder and you know what

01:27:36.239 --> 01:27:42.320
it means and so these this is this is

01:27:42.840 --> 01:27:47.199
um yeah this is this is uh the way

01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:50.080
language works and the work of language

01:27:50.080 --> 01:27:52.930
and what do you want language to do

01:27:52.930 --> 01:27:54.400
[Music]

01:27:54.400 --> 01:27:57.280
um I forgot your

01:27:57.280 --> 01:28:00.320
question I don't think it was a question

01:28:00.320 --> 01:28:02.920
um

01:28:03.880 --> 01:28:08.239
but at the end of the day it's important

01:28:08.239 --> 01:28:11.560
that you're

01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:16.520
organizing based upon these very subtle

01:28:16.520 --> 01:28:18.520
um

01:28:18.520 --> 01:28:21.040
perceptual

01:28:21.040 --> 01:28:22.560
uh

01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:27.280
um dis not distinctions but you're

01:28:27.639 --> 01:28:31.199
refining your perception right so you

01:28:31.199 --> 01:28:32.880
know it's not like everybody's a black

01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:34.600
guy or everybody's a guy or everybody's

01:28:34.600 --> 01:28:37.960
a this these are these are coar grained

01:28:37.960 --> 01:28:41.560
uh perceptions but everything is why is

01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:45.040
this all of a sudden I'm a weird

01:28:45.040 --> 01:28:47.679
conversation with my deck guy and this

01:28:47.679 --> 01:28:51.000
is so you start to see

01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:53.760
these

01:28:53.760 --> 01:28:57.000
these subtle shifts in what's going on

01:28:57.000 --> 01:29:00.800
and you can you can

01:29:00.800 --> 01:29:05.159
be present to what is actually the case

01:29:05.159 --> 01:29:07.440
because because things are seem to be

01:29:07.440 --> 01:29:10.000
changing more

01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:12.679
slowly you know it's like it's

01:29:12.679 --> 01:29:17.080
like when you're coar grained about your

01:29:17.080 --> 01:29:20.880
your discrimination it's like the the

01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:23.360
water is either Frozen boiling so you

01:29:23.360 --> 01:29:25.840
can't cook CU you're either like just

01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:27.880
you know overcooking something or or

01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:31.239
it's frozen but if you can like you know

01:29:31.239 --> 01:29:33.480
and the good cook like knows went to

01:29:33.480 --> 01:29:35.360
simmer and then you add more heat and

01:29:35.360 --> 01:29:38.360
this and that that's what you're

01:29:38.360 --> 01:29:42.040
cultivating and in order to share that

01:29:42.040 --> 01:29:45.920
you need much more refined

01:29:45.920 --> 01:29:48.719
language and language still will be too

01:29:48.719 --> 01:29:53.320
coar grained uh so

01:29:53.320 --> 01:29:55.800
that's kind of what we're doing here I

01:29:55.800 --> 01:29:58.280
loved Katie's video by the way that she

01:29:58.280 --> 01:30:00.600
made you about wisdom the latest one I'm

01:30:00.600 --> 01:30:02.639
not sure if anybody's seen

01:30:02.639 --> 01:30:08.280
it no really cool yeah really it's about

01:30:08.280 --> 01:30:10.960
the cook who can hear what temperature

01:30:10.960 --> 01:30:13.159
the water is by I don't know if you hear

01:30:13.159 --> 01:30:14.440
the bubbles you can hear what

01:30:14.440 --> 01:30:15.920
temperature it is yeah don't you cook

01:30:15.920 --> 01:30:17.480
like that like once you get really good

01:30:17.480 --> 01:30:18.920
at cooking it's like how'd you know that

01:30:18.920 --> 01:30:22.280
was done or the way the the what you're

01:30:22.280 --> 01:30:24.000
cooking in the oven I cooked a turkey

01:30:24.000 --> 01:30:26.080
today and I was like oh no I thought I

01:30:26.080 --> 01:30:27.760
was gonna be done at 2:30 I knew it need

01:30:27.760 --> 01:30:31.520
another hour and then this the scent

01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:37.480
from the oven changes ah like you

01:30:37.480 --> 01:30:41.639
stop yeah or like uh uh how much how

01:30:41.639 --> 01:30:45.360
much water to put in it how many It all

01:30:45.360 --> 01:30:47.199
becomes your more

01:30:47.199 --> 01:30:50.440
sensitive uh you start using sound and

01:30:50.440 --> 01:30:52.920
smell more because they're more

01:30:52.920 --> 01:30:58.960
refined um and uh you

01:30:58.960 --> 01:31:02.960
stop measuring by um units of

01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:06.040
measurement and sight

01:31:06.040 --> 01:31:08.679
um and the best cooks I like this like

01:31:08.679 --> 01:31:11.000
with the when the oil sounds like this

01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:14.080
and then it sounds like that and stuff

01:31:14.080 --> 01:31:15.679
like that

01:31:15.679 --> 01:31:20.199
yeah these are refinements and

01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:23.159
perception

01:31:23.159 --> 01:31:24.960
but you know we educate people the

01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:28.960
opposite way you you know that that that

01:31:28.960 --> 01:31:30.600
we educate them how to take care of

01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:33.360
their kids through words and then they

01:31:33.360 --> 01:31:35.800
they wait to match the experience to the

01:31:35.800 --> 01:31:39.400
word and they miss the

01:31:39.400 --> 01:31:43.280
whole the whole thing

01:31:46.480 --> 01:31:48.719
really funny that you're talking about

01:31:48.719 --> 01:31:51.239
cooking because I am I was a volunteer

01:31:51.239 --> 01:31:53.119
with my

01:31:53.119 --> 01:31:55.960
daughter's Camp as a cook so I cooked

01:31:55.960 --> 01:31:57.520
for a bunch of kids and I'm not a

01:31:57.520 --> 01:31:59.040
caterer so I don't know quantities or

01:31:59.040 --> 01:32:01.080
anything and I don't follow a recipe as

01:32:01.080 --> 01:32:02.960
well like like I heard you're talking

01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:05.239
about but I love cooking is my creative

01:32:05.239 --> 01:32:07.400
space and I went to this camp and was

01:32:07.400 --> 01:32:09.400
offg grade with six days was on on

01:32:09.400 --> 01:32:10.800
island take everything

01:32:10.800 --> 01:32:13.600
and and I and I know that the kids get

01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:17.880
bored at camps and I so I bought all

01:32:17.880 --> 01:32:21.920
this fun like I I just make I just made

01:32:21.920 --> 01:32:23.800
really creative and all the kids the

01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:25.960
parents were like oh my God this was the

01:32:25.960 --> 01:32:28.239
best food ever and and they were all

01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:29.600
asking me recipes I don't have any

01:32:29.600 --> 01:32:31.400
recipes but it was just like for me it

01:32:31.400 --> 01:32:33.360
was a tool for reciprocity and

01:32:33.360 --> 01:32:35.679
connection I was just like I really

01:32:35.679 --> 01:32:38.239
looked at the kids and and I was just

01:32:38.239 --> 01:32:40.639
like oh I I changed all my plans I

01:32:40.639 --> 01:32:42.560
didn't have the plan I I'll do the other

01:32:42.560 --> 01:32:44.000
day because I was like I was feeling

01:32:44.000 --> 01:32:46.400
them and what they needed and it's such

01:32:46.400 --> 01:32:49.880
um anyway it's just an alive experience

01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:51.239
and and I was just thinking they get

01:32:51.239 --> 01:32:53.280
bored usually because there's such a

01:32:53.280 --> 01:32:55.560
pragmatism is the is the kind of mind

01:32:55.560 --> 01:32:58.080
isn't it's like we need to feed the kids

01:32:58.080 --> 01:32:59.880
they need to eat because they're hungry

01:32:59.880 --> 01:33:03.040
or something as opposed

01:33:03.040 --> 01:33:04.880
to

01:33:04.880 --> 01:33:07.880
um yeah as opposed to I don't know being

01:33:07.880 --> 01:33:09.840
alive to it but I just one thing that I

01:33:09.840 --> 01:33:11.440
wanted to say about this group and your

01:33:11.440 --> 01:33:15.320
school and what it does to me like how

01:33:15.320 --> 01:33:19.360
it helps me in a very tangible way like

01:33:19.360 --> 01:33:22.000
even when the modules don't t on

01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:24.239
anything that's happening like which is

01:33:24.239 --> 01:33:27.760
really hard in my life CU you often it

01:33:27.760 --> 01:33:30.719
it opens something up it's almost as if

01:33:30.719 --> 01:33:32.440
like when you're talking to Susan about

01:33:32.440 --> 01:33:34.159
how so much is happening in the world

01:33:34.159 --> 01:33:37.280
and it's so hard to discern everything

01:33:37.280 --> 01:33:39.119
like it's requiring

01:33:39.119 --> 01:33:42.600
us uh to be more alert in different ways

01:33:42.600 --> 01:33:45.600
and and the the it's almost like the

01:33:45.600 --> 01:33:48.000
break of lineage for me like I think for

01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:51.000
all of us but the way I noticed that is

01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.840
like I don't know where to go for um

01:33:55.840 --> 01:33:58.880
wisdom that actually is provocative like

01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:01.320
from from your guidance Bonnie and then

01:34:01.320 --> 01:34:03.679
everybody's like what's been cultivated

01:34:03.679 --> 01:34:05.920
here the language and the capacity to

01:34:05.920 --> 01:34:07.560
look at things in different ways and use

01:34:07.560 --> 01:34:10.280
language and create new things it's like

01:34:10.280 --> 01:34:15.000
it it um it helps my my the the

01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:17.080
mechanism of my thinking so I don't get

01:34:17.080 --> 01:34:18.960
lazy on my own thinking so I noticed

01:34:18.960 --> 01:34:20.960
that as opposed to just listening to

01:34:20.960 --> 01:34:23.040
podcasts or whatever like when I listen

01:34:23.040 --> 01:34:26.440
to the classes even when I'm not here my

01:34:26.440 --> 01:34:28.679
mind does something like that it just

01:34:28.679 --> 01:34:31.600
pivots in a different way that is

01:34:31.600 --> 01:34:34.080
necessary to look at the problem that I

01:34:34.080 --> 01:34:36.639
was trying to engage with from a place

01:34:36.639 --> 01:34:39.600
of complacency and and I need to be

01:34:39.600 --> 01:34:41.920
reminded of that I need the I need a

01:34:41.920 --> 01:34:44.199
group because the water is Flowing too

01:34:44.199 --> 01:34:46.840
quickly it's like modernity too quick

01:34:46.840 --> 01:34:48.880
and and the elders like almost a

01:34:48.880 --> 01:34:51.040
production of Elders in a way like it

01:34:51.040 --> 01:34:53.360
produce elders and I love that there is

01:34:53.360 --> 01:34:56.560
a bunch of like 60 year old like a

01:34:56.560 --> 01:34:58.679
generation above of mine because I'm

01:34:58.679 --> 01:35:01.360
like I can't go to my elders for those

01:35:01.360 --> 01:35:04.119
kind of problems but I need elders and I

01:35:04.119 --> 01:35:07.880
need a councel to to not let me fall

01:35:07.880 --> 01:35:11.679
lazy of in my own capacities I love the

01:35:11.679 --> 01:35:13.719
I love it too like you said it's a group

01:35:13.719 --> 01:35:15.760
also you know you have to recognize

01:35:15.760 --> 01:35:18.080
yourselves as the new Elders like what

01:35:18.080 --> 01:35:22.360
are you guys going to do um and

01:35:22.360 --> 01:35:26.119
uh but also you know there's sometimes

01:35:26.119 --> 01:35:29.440
when things happen and I totally Miss I

01:35:29.440 --> 01:35:32.199
don't know maybe I I'm lazy or I'm tired

01:35:32.199 --> 01:35:34.760
or I'm preoccupied and I totally miss

01:35:34.760 --> 01:35:37.960
the segue and then someone like you or

01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:42.239
David or Sandra they'll come in and and

01:35:42.239 --> 01:35:44.920
they will have the language for the

01:35:44.920 --> 01:35:49.000
bridge that is needed you know and so

01:35:49.000 --> 01:35:50.920
there's a lot of capacity across

01:35:50.920 --> 01:35:52.600
everyone

01:35:52.600 --> 01:35:56.080
um you know I've been doing

01:35:56.080 --> 01:35:58.880
the you know the conceptual work for a

01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:01.719
long time and and find you know my

01:36:01.719 --> 01:36:04.119
always My Hope was that people who had

01:36:04.119 --> 01:36:05.639
like intuitive

01:36:05.639 --> 01:36:08.440
bodies um usually weren't conceptual and

01:36:08.440 --> 01:36:10.000
people were like conceptual didn't have

01:36:10.000 --> 01:36:12.400
any intuitive bodies so how could we

01:36:12.400 --> 01:36:15.639
make uh these strong they're not

01:36:15.639 --> 01:36:18.800
Concepts they're heris sixs they're uh

01:36:18.800 --> 01:36:22.199
and and and and people get it like this

01:36:22.199 --> 01:36:24.920
deck story this deck story is dealing

01:36:24.920 --> 01:36:28.360
with some very sophisticated conceptual

01:36:28.360 --> 01:36:31.639
distinctions but it's an ordinary story

01:36:31.639 --> 01:36:34.400
and so

01:36:34.400 --> 01:36:38.880
um yeah so um there's something cool

01:36:38.880 --> 01:36:41.360
happening in

01:36:41.360 --> 01:36:46.239
um the whole the whole thing here

01:36:47.639 --> 01:36:50.280
really yes

01:36:50.280 --> 01:36:52.000
C

01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:55.400
I had an experience after last week's um

01:36:55.400 --> 01:36:57.679
session and we were kind we were like

01:36:57.679 --> 01:36:59.920
talking about teachers and I had this

01:36:59.920 --> 01:37:01.480
like funny moment when I was sitting on

01:37:01.480 --> 01:37:05.080
my porch of just like oh seek and you

01:37:05.080 --> 01:37:08.639
shall find the teacher is here the

01:37:08.639 --> 01:37:11.239
teacher has always been here and like

01:37:11.239 --> 01:37:14.000
you know and the teacher is everywhere

01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:15.440
and I was thinking about that a lot and

01:37:15.440 --> 01:37:18.119
I really loved it and I was like yes the

01:37:18.119 --> 01:37:22.520
teacher is here um and

01:37:22.520 --> 01:37:24.719
it's

01:37:24.960 --> 01:37:27.800
funny I'm still trying to form the

01:37:27.800 --> 01:37:30.920
language around it um

01:37:30.920 --> 01:37:34.159
initially I read that as like

01:37:34.159 --> 01:37:36.679
external and like

01:37:36.679 --> 01:37:39.599
um the teacher is

01:37:39.599 --> 01:37:45.560
live um but now I'm like oh oh no uh is

01:37:45.560 --> 01:37:49.040
is that it is that I don't it doesn't

01:37:49.040 --> 01:37:50.520
feel like magical thinking because it

01:37:50.520 --> 01:37:53.960
doesn't feel like like God but there is

01:37:53.960 --> 01:37:57.440
like the teacher that I feel is real but

01:37:57.440 --> 01:38:00.320
is that actually

01:38:00.320 --> 01:38:02.639
Instinct because it feels deviant to

01:38:02.639 --> 01:38:05.679
think like that but deviant to like this

01:38:05.679 --> 01:38:08.639
culture maybe does that make sense

01:38:08.639 --> 01:38:12.320
like the teacher can be here like I can

01:38:12.320 --> 01:38:15.679
really feel like there is the teacher

01:38:15.679 --> 01:38:18.480
that I that like I will kind of put a

01:38:18.480 --> 01:38:21.679
lot of weight into and like check back

01:38:21.679 --> 01:38:24.599
with and the teacher will like kind of

01:38:24.599 --> 01:38:26.719
be the one to be like the that teacher

01:38:26.719 --> 01:38:28.920
will say you're simulating a simulation

01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:30.080
of

01:38:30.080 --> 01:38:32.520
yourself it feels external but it's

01:38:32.520 --> 01:38:36.119
actually an instinct what does that does

01:38:36.119 --> 01:38:38.159
can you help me make sense of

01:38:38.159 --> 01:38:42.080
that yeah so the way I

01:38:42.080 --> 01:38:45.080
um you know years and years ago I read

01:38:45.080 --> 01:38:47.760
gser and he said that there's this big

01:38:47.760 --> 01:38:50.080
change every you know things go through

01:38:50.080 --> 01:38:51.520
these big changes we call call it the

01:38:51.520 --> 01:38:53.360
time between worlds and

01:38:53.360 --> 01:38:57.199
stuff and I started as

01:38:57.199 --> 01:39:01.000
a Explorer like where is it in the

01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:03.840
system you know like so if anyone was

01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:06.080
saying something that's already been in

01:39:06.080 --> 01:39:09.159
written in academic books I would say

01:39:09.159 --> 01:39:11.599
it's probably not that because gser was

01:39:11.599 --> 01:39:18.520
talking about real change right and for

01:39:18.520 --> 01:39:21.599
me I'm more of like somewhere

01:39:21.599 --> 01:39:23.840
someone who's been looking at what's

01:39:23.840 --> 01:39:26.400
Laten in the system and trying to

01:39:26.400 --> 01:39:29.560
describe it I'm not that prescriptive

01:39:29.560 --> 01:39:31.840
sometimes I get on my high horse but I'm

01:39:31.840 --> 01:39:33.119
trying to

01:39:33.119 --> 01:39:36.679
describe something and so for

01:39:36.679 --> 01:39:40.960
me uh when someone like you shows up I

01:39:40.960 --> 01:39:42.760
just say oh look there it is that's what

01:39:42.760 --> 01:39:45.679
I'm looking at you know like and then I

01:39:45.679 --> 01:39:49.440
try to describe what I see in a way

01:39:49.440 --> 01:39:53.800
people can see it and then obviously I

01:39:53.800 --> 01:39:55.719
noticed that something like that

01:39:55.719 --> 01:39:58.719
happened to me like I could see my

01:39:58.719 --> 01:40:00.800
parents in the way that my parents

01:40:00.800 --> 01:40:03.440
couldn't see me I didn't really think

01:40:03.440 --> 01:40:05.239
about that until I started meeting

01:40:05.239 --> 01:40:07.360
people that had these stories and I'm

01:40:07.360 --> 01:40:10.159
like well that's that's different that's

01:40:10.159 --> 01:40:13.159
different than all the psychological so

01:40:13.159 --> 01:40:15.880
I'm more like someone like who

01:40:15.880 --> 01:40:23.080
is uh um looking at what is emerging and

01:40:23.080 --> 01:40:25.400
trying to give it

01:40:25.400 --> 01:40:30.080
language uh rather than and so then

01:40:30.080 --> 01:40:33.679
then then I'm then I

01:40:33.679 --> 01:40:35.199
teach

01:40:35.199 --> 01:40:38.560
um models that make it more obvious to

01:40:38.560 --> 01:40:42.840
what's like uh if I so so like I'm a

01:40:42.840 --> 01:40:45.920
teacher but I don't

01:40:46.239 --> 01:40:50.119
have I'm teaching what I'm observing

01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:52.800
along the way

01:40:52.800 --> 01:40:56.239
um so I remember Adriana when we first

01:40:56.239 --> 01:40:59.080
started talking and and I'm like and you

01:40:59.080 --> 01:41:03.000
presented as yourself and all the you

01:41:03.000 --> 01:41:05.760
had such a big download to say and stuff

01:41:05.760 --> 01:41:07.960
and I was like oh this is this is a new

01:41:07.960 --> 01:41:11.080
stru like like why are

01:41:11.080 --> 01:41:14.360
people composed like this now you know

01:41:14.360 --> 01:41:16.599
like like

01:41:16.599 --> 01:41:20.280
like and you and there was a lot of

01:41:20.280 --> 01:41:22.440
teachers were telling you what stage you

01:41:22.440 --> 01:41:23.840
at and this and that and you said it

01:41:23.840 --> 01:41:26.639
didn't work and I was just saying like

01:41:26.639 --> 01:41:29.520
oh this is something new what is it

01:41:29.520 --> 01:41:32.320
versus uh let me tell you what stage

01:41:32.320 --> 01:41:34.360
you're at or something you know but it

01:41:34.360 --> 01:41:38.679
was obviously to me that um not all of

01:41:38.679 --> 01:41:41.400
it is you know some it's very difficult

01:41:41.400 --> 01:41:43.599
doesn't match with Society but there

01:41:43.599 --> 01:41:46.320
were certain markers that that this new

01:41:46.320 --> 01:41:52.560
mind this new composition of a person uh

01:41:52.560 --> 01:41:56.880
um so it's like finding new species and

01:41:56.880 --> 01:41:58.599
trying to convince people that they

01:41:58.599 --> 01:42:00.520
exist versus like oh you're just looking

01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:02.280
at a tape here and I'm like no it's not

01:42:02.280 --> 01:42:05.000
a taper it's like a taper but it doesn't

01:42:05.000 --> 01:42:07.400
look like a tap you know it's like it's

01:42:07.400 --> 01:42:09.520
like trying to find out from the field

01:42:09.520 --> 01:42:12.159
what is going on um and that's what I

01:42:12.159 --> 01:42:14.560
teach so the point is is that if you're

01:42:14.560 --> 01:42:16.639
one of those people then it's

01:42:16.639 --> 01:42:18.760
psychoactive because you're like oh my

01:42:18.760 --> 01:42:21.639
God she knows me or she's teaching what

01:42:21.639 --> 01:42:23.760
I but that's just because I'm trying to

01:42:23.760 --> 01:42:28.080
describe what is and um and there's no

01:42:28.080 --> 01:42:30.840
and there's a few people describing it

01:42:30.840 --> 01:42:33.280
um so yes it's in you because I'm just

01:42:33.280 --> 01:42:37.080
trying to figure out what this you know

01:42:37.080 --> 01:42:39.920
and it and and and it has little pieces

01:42:39.920 --> 01:42:41.320
and people are

01:42:41.320 --> 01:42:45.960
different um but I know for a fact uh

01:42:45.960 --> 01:42:48.360
when I was teaching my Master's course

01:42:48.360 --> 01:42:51.320
and I started inviting like PhD from the

01:42:51.320 --> 01:42:53.920
integral Community they were very

01:42:53.920 --> 01:42:55.679
surprised because they're like oh I

01:42:55.679 --> 01:42:58.320
couldn't teach this in this college and

01:42:58.320 --> 01:43:00.800
I couldn't teach this I couldn't we what

01:43:00.800 --> 01:43:02.719
we did this year I could not teach in my

01:43:02.719 --> 01:43:05.000
Master's course three years ago there

01:43:05.000 --> 01:43:08.000
the nobody could get it there was no

01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:10.040
they'd be like you know and I'm not

01:43:10.040 --> 01:43:11.920
saying everybody gets what I'm saying

01:43:11.920 --> 01:43:14.760
but there's it's like the thing is is

01:43:14.760 --> 01:43:17.040
evolving along with the description of

01:43:17.040 --> 01:43:18.119
it or

01:43:18.119 --> 01:43:22.840
something um so yeah it's out here and

01:43:22.840 --> 01:43:24.560
it's psychoactive because something I'm

01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:27.119
saying is matching you but I'm basically

01:43:27.119 --> 01:43:30.320
just what I just did today Adriana

01:43:30.320 --> 01:43:32.320
that's interesting you know not a lot of

01:43:32.320 --> 01:43:34.119
people have a perspective on their

01:43:34.119 --> 01:43:35.920
parents that their parents don't have

01:43:35.920 --> 01:43:38.520
them themselves but in this little group

01:43:38.520 --> 01:43:41.639
I bet there's there's quite a few of you

01:43:41.639 --> 01:43:45.560
this is something new um

01:43:45.560 --> 01:43:49.320
so um I mean I kind of talked around

01:43:49.320 --> 01:43:51.280
that but but I think that's why it's

01:43:51.280 --> 01:43:55.119
psychoactive because it's not that I

01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:58.080
like thought of something and now

01:43:58.080 --> 01:44:01.440
everybody like I'm so preed it's just

01:44:01.440 --> 01:44:03.560
I've been observing and and I have some

01:44:03.560 --> 01:44:07.280
of this in my own experience and uh it

01:44:07.280 --> 01:44:10.560
turns out it's not common but it's not

01:44:10.560 --> 01:44:12.239
that uncommon

01:44:12.239 --> 01:44:13.880
either

01:44:13.880 --> 01:44:15.480
um

01:44:15.480 --> 01:44:19.360
yeah and there's some kind yeah go ahead

01:44:19.360 --> 01:44:21.239
no I was just I was just gonna going to

01:44:21.239 --> 01:44:23.599
ask if you um sorry lots of words here

01:44:23.599 --> 01:44:28.760
haven't been here just excited um the if

01:44:28.760 --> 01:44:30.599
you've been noticing the evolution of

01:44:30.599 --> 01:44:32.840
the pop-up school because from here from

01:44:32.840 --> 01:44:35.599
me uh I was at the very first session

01:44:35.599 --> 01:44:39.480
when you were like doing q&as before you

01:44:39.480 --> 01:44:42.599
even open publicly and then just

01:44:42.599 --> 01:44:44.960
noticing because the past year and a bit

01:44:44.960 --> 01:44:46.960
I couldn't come so much but I've been

01:44:46.960 --> 01:44:49.239
listening but it's almost as if like

01:44:49.239 --> 01:44:51.080
it's created its own body body and

01:44:51.080 --> 01:44:53.520
momentum it feels to me that it's almost

01:44:53.520 --> 01:44:55.599
like in the beginning that you were the

01:44:55.599 --> 01:44:57.440
only one holding the flag of some

01:44:57.440 --> 01:45:00.280
language and stuff people I was saying

01:45:00.280 --> 01:45:03.360
this is not the sto not everybody's

01:45:03.360 --> 01:45:06.040
opinion is equal like because a lot of

01:45:06.040 --> 01:45:07.520
people came from the store where he

01:45:07.520 --> 01:45:09.440
would just have everybody right and I'm

01:45:09.440 --> 01:45:13.199
like this is my stuff and if it doesn't

01:45:13.199 --> 01:45:15.880
resonate with you you can go remember I

01:45:15.880 --> 01:45:17.080
had to

01:45:17.080 --> 01:45:21.520
like yeah and it was very Cru food and

01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:24.800
and I mean and you can see why now but

01:45:24.800 --> 01:45:27.360
you can also see if you look at some of

01:45:27.360 --> 01:45:30.480
the early ones how everybody's grown and

01:45:30.480 --> 01:45:33.360
yeah there's a lot of yeah that's what I

01:45:33.360 --> 01:45:35.280
feel I feel that the culture is almost

01:45:35.280 --> 01:45:38.119
like The Crucible has a shape now in

01:45:38.119 --> 01:45:40.199
which when people come new where people

01:45:40.199 --> 01:45:41.599
come it's not that they start from the

01:45:41.599 --> 01:45:43.400
beginning they can start they almost

01:45:43.400 --> 01:45:44.920
fall

01:45:44.920 --> 01:45:48.320
in there's a momentum that's how I feel

01:45:48.320 --> 01:45:50.679
was it hard to get to jump in I mean

01:45:50.679 --> 01:45:52.080
this is one thing we've been very

01:45:52.080 --> 01:45:54.159
sensitive about because we build so much

01:45:54.159 --> 01:45:56.960
capacity that it can feel like a wall

01:45:56.960 --> 01:45:59.320
but I feel that you've jumped in pretty

01:45:59.320 --> 01:46:00.840
well I don't know maybe you could

01:46:00.840 --> 01:46:02.880
reflect on this on

01:46:02.880 --> 01:46:07.000
something yeah um it's been very like

01:46:07.000 --> 01:46:10.719
it's been easy um but it's I'm attracted

01:46:10.719 --> 01:46:13.840
to your thinking so that's that's makes

01:46:13.840 --> 01:46:19.239
it easier um um and

01:46:19.239 --> 01:46:21.080
um the

01:46:21.080 --> 01:46:23.599
process because I've been watching this

01:46:23.599 --> 01:46:25.840
world and I know all the characters that

01:46:25.840 --> 01:46:29.639
you're referring to I get where you're

01:46:29.639 --> 01:46:32.760
differentiating your

01:46:32.760 --> 01:46:36.199
approach um and I

01:46:36.199 --> 01:46:38.159
agree

01:46:38.159 --> 01:46:40.760
so so yeah no no it's it's

01:46:40.760 --> 01:46:45.119
straightforward in that sense um and I

01:46:45.119 --> 01:46:47.760
just as a comment on what's been said so

01:46:47.760 --> 01:46:51.119
far it seems like the the there's

01:46:51.119 --> 01:46:54.080
a there's something going on with this

01:46:54.080 --> 01:46:58.400
latent idea at above psyche or in that

01:46:58.400 --> 01:47:04.280
realm that as it as as we go into that

01:47:04.280 --> 01:47:06.960
there's something going

01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:09.920
on like be the fact that you're calling

01:47:09.920 --> 01:47:12.760
on the moral animal it's like that

01:47:12.760 --> 01:47:17.360
latency is like some kind of awareness

01:47:17.360 --> 01:47:20.080
of the animal like it's it's doing the

01:47:20.080 --> 01:47:22.719
same thing that you're talking

01:47:22.719 --> 01:47:27.599
about in relation to

01:47:27.599 --> 01:47:30.800
this look going up and going down at the

01:47:30.800 --> 01:47:34.599
same time like that that layer that's

01:47:34.599 --> 01:47:35.920
not

01:47:35.920 --> 01:47:41.440
defined is also partly a part of the n-

01:47:41.440 --> 01:47:45.239
definition in the animal that that and

01:47:45.239 --> 01:47:49.320
that there's this examination up here of

01:47:49.320 --> 01:47:51.040
that

01:47:51.040 --> 01:47:53.080
and and one other thing that comes to

01:47:53.080 --> 01:47:55.360
mind from what what Susan was saying

01:47:55.360 --> 01:47:58.119
about her interaction with the the the

01:47:58.119 --> 01:48:02.880
deck contractor is is this idea that you

01:48:02.880 --> 01:48:06.880
went into that

01:48:07.520 --> 01:48:10.400
simulated

01:48:10.400 --> 01:48:13.360
conversation it went

01:48:13.360 --> 01:48:16.760
sideways and you you pulled it back to

01:48:16.760 --> 01:48:18.880
some kind of

01:48:18.880 --> 01:48:21.480
grounding that you all that you both

01:48:21.480 --> 01:48:26.239
agreed on and said like that was just so

01:48:26.239 --> 01:48:29.280
sophisticated in the sense that that the

01:48:29.280 --> 01:48:31.639
that the conversation that you would you

01:48:31.639 --> 01:48:34.599
would have going forward would be ba

01:48:34.599 --> 01:48:37.159
would be based on reality it would be

01:48:37.159 --> 01:48:40.119
based on the animal in the situation

01:48:40.119 --> 01:48:42.800
coming upon the decision to the next

01:48:42.800 --> 01:48:48.360
decision to make like in reality not

01:48:48.360 --> 01:48:50.760
somewhere else in your head and then

01:48:50.760 --> 01:48:53.800
you're going to preon contrive it and

01:48:53.800 --> 01:48:56.719
arrange all the bets in some kind of

01:48:56.719 --> 01:48:59.239
abstract Perfection you're going to

01:48:59.239 --> 01:49:02.159
actually be there for it and you're G to

01:49:02.159 --> 01:49:04.199
that's that's that's that's the joy

01:49:04.199 --> 01:49:07.360
that's the fun that's

01:49:13.560 --> 01:49:16.000
the like that that in other words this

01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:18.440
is this is there there's another yet

01:49:18.440 --> 01:49:22.000
another layer is this part of this layer

01:49:22.000 --> 01:49:24.639
is that this this thing is

01:49:24.639 --> 01:49:28.239
us not having boundaries up

01:49:28.239 --> 01:49:30.920
here right and not having boundaries

01:49:30.920 --> 01:49:33.040
down there like below the animal like

01:49:33.040 --> 01:49:36.320
that we're we're

01:49:40.560 --> 01:49:43.440
animals yeah and be being able to track

01:49:43.440 --> 01:49:46.199
that yes the conversation on what is the

01:49:46.199 --> 01:49:48.000
deck going to look like is a

01:49:48.000 --> 01:49:50.199
simulation but there's a kind of

01:49:50.199 --> 01:49:52.119
simulation that's

01:49:52.119 --> 01:49:54.280
real and then there's a kind of

01:49:54.280 --> 01:49:56.840
simulation that's

01:49:56.840 --> 01:49:59.159
problematic and we don't and we

01:49:59.159 --> 01:50:01.880
shouldn't Pro problematize the helpful

01:50:01.880 --> 01:50:04.280
and useful simulation you don't want to

01:50:04.280 --> 01:50:08.320
be like throwing boards around and to

01:50:08.320 --> 01:50:09.880
have the

01:50:09.880 --> 01:50:12.360
conversation um but then there's

01:50:12.360 --> 01:50:15.719
something else that and and so just to

01:50:15.719 --> 01:50:18.040
have that awareness

01:50:18.040 --> 01:50:25.119
around is is unusual like like

01:50:27.599 --> 01:50:30.719
um and important I think

01:50:30.719 --> 01:50:34.480
so yeah just on that it feels like

01:50:34.480 --> 01:50:38.000
that's the work that the conver those

01:50:38.000 --> 01:50:41.000
conversations

01:50:41.199 --> 01:50:44.040
that's

01:50:44.040 --> 01:50:46.400
um it's like that thing you were talking

01:50:46.400 --> 01:50:48.440
about

01:50:48.440 --> 01:50:50.520
cooking where you have have the

01:50:50.520 --> 01:50:54.360
sensitivity of the situation to be in

01:50:54.360 --> 01:50:56.880
the situation rather than in the recipe

01:50:56.880 --> 01:50:59.440
book

01:51:02.639 --> 01:51:07.159
right a scense in which the situations

01:51:07.159 --> 01:51:09.360
like the deck they just happen in the

01:51:09.360 --> 01:51:11.719
moment and you just say what you say and

01:51:11.719 --> 01:51:15.199
that's what happens it just happens what

01:51:15.199 --> 01:51:18.840
is causing what like I feel quite

01:51:18.840 --> 01:51:21.199
tearful at the moment when I think about

01:51:21.199 --> 01:51:22.800
this

01:51:22.800 --> 01:51:26.320
latent that I see in the kids I know cuz

01:51:26.320 --> 01:51:29.040
they share something with me and then

01:51:29.040 --> 01:51:31.440
I'm like my God I feel I'm going to cry

01:51:31.440 --> 01:51:35.520
now I am I don't know what to say like

01:51:35.520 --> 01:51:38.679
you're saying about the cooking um young

01:51:38.679 --> 01:51:43.360
IU who's what 15 took some fancy name

01:51:43.360 --> 01:51:46.079
basically it's cooking but he he took

01:51:46.079 --> 01:51:48.480
cooking and he was I said to him how's

01:51:48.480 --> 01:51:50.599
it going because he loves to

01:51:50.599 --> 01:51:52.960
he said I don't know what they're doing

01:51:52.960 --> 01:51:54.960
I don't understand it we have to measure

01:51:54.960 --> 01:51:56.840
everything and they they they make me

01:51:56.840 --> 01:51:59.119
learn what the quarters and what that I

01:51:59.119 --> 01:52:00.760
don't even know what the words mean

01:52:00.760 --> 01:52:02.560
English is a second language of course

01:52:02.560 --> 01:52:03.920
but he said I don't know what it means

01:52:03.920 --> 01:52:05.960
what's the teaspoon the tablespoon so

01:52:05.960 --> 01:52:08.679
you know how I cook I said yes he just

01:52:08.679 --> 01:52:10.760
cooks and there he's cooked he's made a

01:52:10.760 --> 01:52:14.280
lovely meal and I just want to say

01:52:14.280 --> 01:52:17.679
school you know this is I don't know I

01:52:17.679 --> 01:52:20.800
just don't know what to say to him

01:52:20.800 --> 01:52:22.840
sometimes like I certainly encourage him

01:52:22.840 --> 01:52:24.599
to keep cooking as he cooks and say our

01:52:24.599 --> 01:52:25.679
lovely as

01:52:25.679 --> 01:52:28.239
mealers but I just want to go up to the

01:52:28.239 --> 01:52:30.920
school and scream at them sometimes and

01:52:30.920 --> 01:52:33.760
I went to their interviews went up cuz

01:52:33.760 --> 01:52:35.440
Mom doesn't speak English at all and I

01:52:35.440 --> 01:52:37.840
went to the interviews honestly about

01:52:37.840 --> 01:52:40.679
halfway through these people are nice

01:52:40.679 --> 01:52:43.760
people they're kind good people I was

01:52:43.760 --> 01:52:47.000
just going crazy like I thought I am

01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:50.840
going crazy there was just so so much

01:52:50.840 --> 01:52:54.360
rubbish being spoken I couldn't I don't

01:52:54.360 --> 01:52:56.000
know I just went outside and sat under a

01:52:56.000 --> 01:52:59.400
tree for a while it was was just so very

01:52:59.400 --> 01:53:02.480
difficult and it is a concern of mine I

01:53:02.480 --> 01:53:04.119
I don't know what to say to the kids

01:53:04.119 --> 01:53:08.079
half the time like I can see the kids

01:53:08.079 --> 01:53:10.800
also seeing the parents and sometimes I

01:53:10.800 --> 01:53:13.000
think oh it's because they've come to

01:53:13.000 --> 01:53:15.440
another culture but then I see that it's

01:53:15.440 --> 01:53:17.800
more than that and I don't know what to

01:53:17.800 --> 01:53:20.560
say I don't I don't know

01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:22.760
I don't know they just come to my house

01:53:22.760 --> 01:53:24.119
and we hang

01:53:24.119 --> 01:53:26.800
out do

01:53:26.800 --> 01:53:29.639
 we're doing we're doing

01:53:29.639 --> 01:53:31.880
scrapbooking Christmas cards with

01:53:31.880 --> 01:53:35.000
stickers and we just chat I don't know

01:53:35.000 --> 01:53:36.639
what to say to them about all of this it

01:53:36.639 --> 01:53:39.400
seems really significant but I just

01:53:39.400 --> 01:53:40.760
wonder if they can just say it to

01:53:40.760 --> 01:53:44.679
someone is that enough I don't

01:53:45.920 --> 01:53:48.320
know oh I do want to put a bomb under

01:53:48.320 --> 01:53:51.760
the schools right now

01:53:52.000 --> 01:53:55.360
I'm not going to that this video is not

01:53:55.360 --> 01:53:57.800
going to be allowed on YouTube the

01:53:57.800 --> 01:54:01.960
algorithm is gonna get that one for

01:54:02.599 --> 01:54:05.960
sure no it is but but you know there's

01:54:05.960 --> 01:54:08.159
latency and you can't get rid of the

01:54:08.159 --> 01:54:11.480
latency so yeah it's it's it can be

01:54:11.480 --> 01:54:13.119
heartbreaking

01:54:13.119 --> 01:54:15.119
uh

01:54:15.119 --> 01:54:18.679
um it's it's

01:54:18.679 --> 01:54:20.360
it's

01:54:20.360 --> 01:54:23.000
the it's a toxy Turvy world it's upside

01:54:23.000 --> 01:54:24.480
down you know you could say something

01:54:24.480 --> 01:54:26.760
like that to the kids like yeah they get

01:54:26.760 --> 01:54:28.679
paid for like doing certain things and

01:54:28.679 --> 01:54:30.920
it's kind of a game of pretend they

01:54:30.920 --> 01:54:34.679
don't know it and uh you can pretend

01:54:34.679 --> 01:54:38.679
they're too instead of challenging the

01:54:38.679 --> 01:54:40.639
school system just go and pretend it's

01:54:40.639 --> 01:54:43.639
kind of kind of interesting you know if

01:54:43.639 --> 01:54:45.920
it if something like that comes up but

01:54:45.920 --> 01:54:48.760
yeah um think you know they just need

01:54:48.760 --> 01:54:51.119
somebody else to to know that what

01:54:51.119 --> 01:54:53.599
they're seeing is like crazy and they're

01:54:53.599 --> 01:54:56.040
not crazy it's just we live in a Topsy

01:54:56.040 --> 01:54:57.199
Turvy

01:54:57.199 --> 01:54:59.440
World

01:54:59.440 --> 01:55:01.560
um and maybe that's why they're like

01:55:01.560 --> 01:55:04.440
just hanging out because we're all crazy

01:55:04.440 --> 01:55:06.480
together or not crazy together I don't

01:55:06.480 --> 01:55:10.280
know yeah yeah

01:55:10.280 --> 01:55:14.920
yeah yes Cala ending sentence Oh I was

01:55:14.920 --> 01:55:16.480
like that's why I like the popup school

01:55:16.480 --> 01:55:18.840
it's like we're all crazy but we know it

01:55:18.840 --> 01:55:23.000
and it's really refreshing yeah

01:55:23.079 --> 01:55:25.920
yeah thank you my friends you've made my

01:55:25.920 --> 01:55:29.639
Thanksgiving very wonderful and uh this

01:55:29.639 --> 01:55:33.000
is one for the ages and have a good day

01:55:33.000 --> 01:55:35.480
thank you Bonnie thank you Bonnie thank

01:55:35.480 --> 01:55:40.560
you everybody great to be here guys