# Representational Thinking, Narrative 2023 cohorts transcripts

## Cohort 1

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okay

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um hello everyone

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welcome back

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to our

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um I don't know fourth or fifth module

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in the 2023 uh course series

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um this month will be working with

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representational thinking narrative and

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the justification system apologies I got

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that course content out rather late

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um but if you haven't read it

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um I'm going to go over it a little and

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it's it's not there's not that much in

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there anyway so

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I want to start by

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um doing a little uh presentation to

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frame what we're going to do

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but what we're going to do this month is

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we're going to move

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[Music]

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what happened there

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we're going to learn a new skill

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and we're going to practice it today and

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if you come back we'll keep practicing

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it and

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um I'll talk about this in the

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presentation and the skill is

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um what I call Collective Insight

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practice

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and for those of you who have been doing

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Collective presidency

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um there's certain

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um habits that you'll have to learn

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um to switch from Collective presencing

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to Collective Insight practice

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and so I will make that obvious for you

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in the presentation and it's kind of

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like I don't know any of you play ever

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play tennis Racquetball and squash you

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know it's like you have to kind of

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really take a mental model of the game

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you're doing because it requires

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completely different movements

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um and so there might be some difficulty

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at first for you to make the transition

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but I do want to say that it's a new

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skill

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that we are going to try to

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um develop

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now on the other hand if you cannot

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self-regulate your own emotions

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something which Collective presidency

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helps you with you can't do Collective

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Insight practice so on the other hand it

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can be an asset because you've done a

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lot of those your own work so

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um yeah one of the things Collective

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presencing helps you be is reduce social

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anxiety be more transparent be more in

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the flow be more imaginative instead of

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hung up and just interpersonal kind of

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Dynamics so

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um so that's exciting and we will be

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trying to use this technology over the

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last three modules so this one the next

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one and especially in the modulum

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reflexive reflexivity

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okay

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so

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um

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let me share my screen and start with

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the presentation it's the fastest way to

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get this

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done okay

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so

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um

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this is a representation

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of some of the things we've been talking

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about right so it represents

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in a visual way some of the things we've

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been talking about those of you that

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know the work of Cheryl Shu she you know

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her artwork has represented experiences

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she's had experiences and ideas and

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stuff like that so when we think of when

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we talk about representation we're

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talking about something it's part of the

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imagination but we are trying to see a

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represented version of something

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and a represented version of something

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is like a compression

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so this is like a way of representing

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what we've done and what we're going to

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do this year

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so this is what we mean by

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representation

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um this is one of the Bare Bones of it

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um Okay so

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for example I just drew this out and we

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could see that when we worked with the

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affects we're working with the animal

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body so we Define the affects as if it

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doesn't exist in the animal body then

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you're you're not really working you

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know it's exclusive to the animal we we

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share it it's the same thing as the

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animal body the same

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neurochemical biological physiological

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dynamical systems are the affects

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the same thing with perception and these

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two are the sensory motor core of our

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animal nature

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and then we moved on to imagination and

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we noticed that animals can simulate the

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environment in their minds and they and

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they mash up those environments into

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hypothetical environments they're not

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aware that they do this but that's the

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root of imagination so we put the root

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of imagination in the animal realm but

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humans can take it much further

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because we also use our imagination to

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rep in representational thinking

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um we imagine metaphors cross modal

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metaphors Way Beyond the hypothetical

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environments that animals can imagine so

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this is what we were talking about

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today we're talking about

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representational thinking and and I'm

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saying there's a whole lot more in the

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human realm than in the animal realm but

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when as I wrote in the course content

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when rats run through the environment

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and their memory creates ex you know

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internal maps of their environment

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that's kind of a representation they

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just then don't go and draw the map out

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right so representational thinking the

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compression so a mouse is

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compressing the complexity of running

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through the environment into a map of

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the environment so it's always a

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compression there's there's more

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information in

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less volume

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then I have justification I know it's in

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the same module but there's very little

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that animals do in terms of

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justification but in as I wrote in the

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course content justification systems are

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huge human systems that try to integrate

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the is and the ought

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so I was talking to Greg Enriquez who's

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written a lot about this and it's like

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99 of what goes on in the social sphere

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in the social media in politics

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is how to justify how to you know people

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always like is abortion good or bad can

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you justify your position there's this

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constant justification of the order of

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things what is and what ought to be and

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this is a huge part of actually what

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humans do all the time in the in the

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social sphere

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how do you justify this how do you

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justify that now we're not talking about

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I I actually asked Greg this we're not

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talking about rationalization

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rationalization is when you you know

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you're giving a answer okay

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justification are things we actually

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believe in we just even though a lot of

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our justificatory systems are

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conditioned or or either by Society or

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we we've developed them unconsciously

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and then we'll go on to Pure abstraction

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we'll notice that actually that it

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there's quite a lot of this rooted in

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the animal body

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um and then reflexivity but this is so

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one so what we're doing here is we're

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representing something now if you asked

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me why is Imagination in the animal body

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then I would have to justify that I

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would say the things I just said that

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they can simulate their environment and

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in this case I'm using this system

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called science and Neuroscience and

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animal Behavioral Science to justify

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that

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right so

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this is the difference between

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representation and justification

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now here's another representation and

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what I want you to notice is that

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different representations

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um different representations lead to

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different perspectives on the world

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so here's another way to look at this

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here's the human body

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and it has animal forms interior to it

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it's composed of animals so singular

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cells single

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cell animals that are inside me like a

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habitat so my immune cells they move

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around in the river is called the

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bloodstream they eat other things they

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exist independently they they mutate and

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propagate so there are forms inside me

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that still have animal forms my blood

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cells my skin cells in my organ cells so

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I can think of my human body as

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having a lot of animal forms single

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cellular

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animal kind of organisms

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and I noticed that they're involved in

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Motion in exchange

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and then there's platforms so my neurons

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in my skeletal system in the circulatory

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system and the lung in the kidney in the

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gut and the glio cells in the fascia

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they grow like plants right

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they form like

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societies of connection and growth

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they don't move in the bloodstream like

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these animals they have this kind of

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morphogenic

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space that's more like plant growth can

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you see that what I'm saying

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the the neurons don't detach and then go

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somewhere else and like immune cells but

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they they grow like branches of a tree

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and they're into communication

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growth and connection and then I noticed

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that there are Elemental forms like

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water air molecules protein and DNA in

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me so so I'm like a vast ocean with

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these different River streams

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and these are actually the function is

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change in memory so like uh psycho

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neural active neurochemical uh

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neuroactive chemical molecules will

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change

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uh change my dispositional state and

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memory is codified in proteins and DNA

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foreign

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and then I could think of the energetic

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forms bioelectricity Global oscillations

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are as charge and coordination large

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systems coordination so this is another

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representation it's not you know it's

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for something else I'm working on but

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what I want you to see is that

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um the the important thing and what

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we're going to do

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um today uh this month is we are looking

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to create representations that create

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different perspectives on what is and

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what ought

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so can we

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use Collective insight to re-represent

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the world

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then this will lead us to new

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justification systems we said wow this

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is an interesting way to look at this

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how can I justify that

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can I can I look empirically in

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different ways and justify that

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so we talked last year last month about

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abductive reasoning and speculative

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reasoning this is abductive and

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speculative reasoning first we look for

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the intuition of the model oh that's

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cool it makes sense to me but can I

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justify it outside of just Collective

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meaning making

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so we probably won't get to the

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justification stage that's that's that's

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a lot of work

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um but what we're interested in doing

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Collective Insight so what we come up

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collectively is

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um a new kind of representation of what

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is and what are so that's a really good

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question it's more a long sense breaking

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because we're trying to like that whole

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thing I put like on neurons I like have

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animal like that doesn't make any sense

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really it's I'm trying to sense break

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okay

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um but yeah the meaning is like when you

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come up with a representation even

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though it doesn't seem to make sense it

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can look like what I just showed you

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that it made meaning somehow right and

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so so

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um it's called significant objects if I

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was more of an artist I would have drawn

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like a tree grown in me and these little

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animals and and you know I could have

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drawn that out in a different way so

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this is what we're looking to work with

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today okay um this month okay so we're

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trying to tie in the the module into a

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practice through the practice we'll

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learn more about what's representation

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what's justification

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um it will probably get some pure

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abstraction in it and this and that so

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this is the format

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um we're doing are there any questions

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so far

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um

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and I will have a topic that we'll work

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on

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um so so

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um

00:15:28.380 --> 00:15:31.560
yeah so all the all the gist of this is

00:15:31.560 --> 00:15:33.180
really working Collective Insight

00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:36.980
practice to notice

00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:40.680
what what what we're using you'll notice

00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:43.139
the affects we'll notice you know

00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.060
virtual perceptions we'll notice other

00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:46.980
perceptions

00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:50.300
um but well the point is to to create

00:15:50.300 --> 00:15:53.760
representations that are interesting and

00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:56.579
and and afford US a perspective that's

00:15:56.579 --> 00:15:59.760
that's you know it could be highly

00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:01.740
imaginative

00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:04.019
um but we want to try to represent that

00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:06.740
in some way

00:16:10.079 --> 00:16:12.779
okay moving on

00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:15.300
to the PowerPoint does the PowerPoint

00:16:15.300 --> 00:16:17.940
make you feel grounded or does it make

00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:20.839
you feel nervous

00:16:24.560 --> 00:16:27.620
no one wants to just shout out all right

00:16:27.620 --> 00:16:30.300
I just stopped thinking and just bow to

00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:32.820
the wisdom of the PowerPoint okay that's

00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:36.959
more like grounded like it's easier okay

00:16:36.959 --> 00:16:38.300
so

00:16:38.300 --> 00:16:42.019
this is oh

00:16:43.380 --> 00:16:46.279
stop it

00:16:47.040 --> 00:16:48.720
okay

00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.259
so now we're going to move on to this

00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:54.899
which it won't move on to because it's

00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:58.680
being now what we're going to do

00:16:58.680 --> 00:17:00.360
is

00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:05.040
uh what we're going to do here is

00:17:05.040 --> 00:17:06.540
um we're going to do a little exercise

00:17:06.540 --> 00:17:08.400
and

00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.520
we're going to do this before

00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:15.179
the module because then you're going to

00:17:15.179 --> 00:17:18.480
reflect back afterwards on your own

00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.640
perhaps and maybe we could talk about it

00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.439
if it can be reality lounge if you want

00:17:22.439 --> 00:17:24.480
to you're going to find out what is your

00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.679
justification type

00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:29.880
now

00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.100
this is a little test and you're just

00:17:32.100 --> 00:17:34.500
going to give me your answer so I'm not

00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:37.020
going to tell you who you are what your

00:17:37.020 --> 00:17:40.500
typology is yet and

00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:45.020
what we're trying to do is also

00:17:45.020 --> 00:17:49.140
notice when we try to slip into

00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:51.419
justification instead of just

00:17:51.419 --> 00:17:56.160
representation right so we don't want in

00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.700
our exercise to be justifying anything

00:17:58.700 --> 00:18:01.679
we it could be a little bit if you're

00:18:01.679 --> 00:18:05.640
explaining but we gonna try to not

00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.280
justify but you will notice

00:18:08.280 --> 00:18:10.919
that the justification system will try

00:18:10.919 --> 00:18:14.900
to come in and answer your question

00:18:15.539 --> 00:18:18.059
and we're not interested in that if that

00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:19.679
energy comes up you just say I'm not

00:18:19.679 --> 00:18:21.660
interested in that I'm looking for an

00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:25.980
image or a model or maybe it's just like

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:28.799
I see like like right now I just saw

00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.200
teeth really white teeth have a big

00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.140
smile I'm looking for representations

00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:37.620
like fundamental representations

00:18:37.620 --> 00:18:40.799
if I'm pondering the question I might

00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:42.660
start to hear

00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:45.660
a justification system coming up and

00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:47.820
then you just say ah now body I'm not

00:18:47.820 --> 00:18:50.039
interested in that I'm not interested in

00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:51.059
the

00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.700
another justification system I'm

00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:55.980
interested in an image that will be so

00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:57.780
provocative and different

00:18:57.780 --> 00:19:00.360
that I moved to entirely give me a

00:19:00.360 --> 00:19:02.160
chance to develop an entirely new

00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.860
justification system okay

00:19:04.860 --> 00:19:09.299
and and so what I'm going to do is take

00:19:09.299 --> 00:19:11.940
your typology and then at the end I will

00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:15.299
tell you what how you typed and then you

00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:17.640
can reflect on whether you think

00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:18.780
um

00:19:18.780 --> 00:19:21.419
whether you think uh that kind of thing

00:19:21.419 --> 00:19:23.400
happened to you or not does that make

00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:25.380
sense

00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:27.780
is there a question in the chat

00:19:27.780 --> 00:19:30.240
uh periods right

00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.179
okay this is more than a game than a

00:19:33.179 --> 00:19:34.799
psychometric

00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.440
um but it does make it is a meaning

00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.900
making thing

00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:42.120
um I'm going to hide these Liz is coming

00:19:42.120 --> 00:19:44.220
in so just going to wait for her to take

00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:46.380
uh

00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:47.700
um

00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:50.340
see if she wants to take this Liz are

00:19:50.340 --> 00:19:52.320
you here

00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:56.700
yes I am okay you're going to take okay

00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:59.160
I waited for you gonna take this test

00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.320
what is your justification type okay

00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:03.299
okay

00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:05.580
um all right so you're gonna answer

00:20:05.580 --> 00:20:08.400
three questions and

00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.280
you need to put pencil and paper

00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:13.200
and

00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.120
um you just want to put down the number

00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:18.000
if you're a one or a two okay

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.520
so now you have to think of when you

00:20:20.520 --> 00:20:22.980
were in grade school so K through 12 the

00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:24.799
earlier you can remember the better

00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:29.100
because this is a deep complex or you

00:20:29.100 --> 00:20:30.539
know if you read the content the

00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:32.640
justification system is is built on

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.700
complexes or like early childhood

00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:37.020
structures

00:20:37.020 --> 00:20:39.059
so think of when you were in grade

00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:40.440
school

00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.780
now look around and you see other kids

00:20:42.780 --> 00:20:46.080
and how they act out and relative to

00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:46.980
them

00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:50.220
were you more likely to seek approval or

00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:53.400
take power now this is very uh you have

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:54.960
to be careful here because if you're

00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:58.260
someone who who initially wanted to take

00:20:58.260 --> 00:21:01.440
power but got beaten down

00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.299
um that that still means you're a take

00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:06.179
power person right so

00:21:06.179 --> 00:21:09.299
um it's what impulse arose with you were

00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:11.760
you like a teacher pleaser or were you

00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:13.860
always in the teacher's face were you

00:21:13.860 --> 00:21:16.440
seeking approval or taking power and you

00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.020
just look around because it's it's when

00:21:19.020 --> 00:21:20.340
you're young you can't answer that

00:21:20.340 --> 00:21:24.000
question it's just relative to like

00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.340
and a lot of that is you could identify

00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:28.200
others oh I'm not like that that

00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.960
person's just just you know a teacher's

00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.720
pet if you identify others as teachers

00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.059
pets then you are a take power person do

00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:39.020
you see how it works

00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:42.419
yes no

00:21:42.419 --> 00:21:44.940
yeah so you put down whether you're a

00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:48.240
one or two the faster you the faster you

00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:49.980
use your intuition the less you think

00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:54.260
about it the more accurate this is

00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:57.840
[Music]

00:21:57.840 --> 00:21:59.700
so you just put down number one or

00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:01.620
number two

00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:02.700
all right

00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:04.919
moving on

00:22:04.919 --> 00:22:06.720
think of when you are in a group

00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.260
conversation so that's like today

00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:12.419
um mostly what you say

00:22:12.419 --> 00:22:14.460
the words that come out of your mouth

00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:18.120
now not what you're thinking about

00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:19.500
okay

00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:21.900
but the words that come out of your

00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:25.200
mouth what you make public what would be

00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.780
on the transcript

00:22:27.780 --> 00:22:30.900
is it mostly three a narrative or story

00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:34.159
like thing you tell

00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:37.559
about yourself about other people or is

00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.500
it more like a conceptual or a model

00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:43.020
now it's not what's inside you you could

00:22:43.020 --> 00:22:45.539
think you you could be triggered by like

00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:47.280
something that happened to you but then

00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:51.000
what comes out of your mouth is

00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.480
some conceptual words and story and

00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.220
something about the aggregor and this or

00:22:56.220 --> 00:22:58.140
that so that would be a conceptual model

00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:00.299
if what comes out of your mouth is

00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:03.120
narrative or story or always feel like

00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:05.700
this or some kind of more emotional then

00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:07.140
you're a three

00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:10.140
okay so this is how you act now in

00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:12.240
conversational space we space group

00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.860
space at a meeting

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.480
okay so everybody got that so you're at

00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.980
you you put down whether you're a three

00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.460
or a four

00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.559
now what we're looking for is just your

00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.900
ordinary way of being some people go to

00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:36.059
they're they're mostly fours but they've

00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:37.740
learned in we space to go to threes

00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:39.059
because we're looking for you they'll

00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:41.640
fall what you just default to does that

00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:43.559
make sense also

00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.840
you have to put effort into staying with

00:23:45.840 --> 00:23:49.140
the story and the narrative the eye

00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:51.840
position that's that means you're more

00:23:51.840 --> 00:23:53.760
comfortably a four if you have to put

00:23:53.760 --> 00:23:56.820
effort into being a three

00:23:56.820 --> 00:23:59.820
so that might have made you change your

00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:03.780
your thing may I ask a question yes Liz

00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:08.059
they feel so woven together

00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.480
like yeah always both

00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.299
um choose one okay

00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:17.940
and we'll see if you if it if it's if

00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:20.340
your score makes sense to you and then

00:24:20.340 --> 00:24:22.500
we'll see what the other one would be if

00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:24.299
you chose the other one in this one okay

00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:27.179
and then you'll make no by oh yeah I'm

00:24:27.179 --> 00:24:28.919
more like that so I must be one of these

00:24:28.919 --> 00:24:29.940
or that

00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.520
we could reverse engineer okay this is a

00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:35.640
game okay now think of a larger context

00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.440
such as a nation or the international

00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.280
state so we move from the child in very

00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:43.220
you know

00:24:43.220 --> 00:24:46.440
one-dimensional to another level scale

00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:48.360
now the larger context such as the

00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:51.960
nation or the international scale

00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:54.539
with respect for important issues you

00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:58.260
find yourself more likely to defend

00:24:58.260 --> 00:25:00.900
are they human Collective rights

00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:03.799
equality

00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.440
or the individual rights individual

00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.100
opportunity

00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.520
so which one do you feel like yes I

00:25:14.520 --> 00:25:17.100
believe in five but I'm always have to I

00:25:17.100 --> 00:25:19.380
think it's a I'm I need to balance it up

00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.380
with more sixes or or you only hear

00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:24.659
sixes so I am the person that always has

00:25:24.659 --> 00:25:27.480
to bring in the collective

00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:29.700
like which one

00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:32.580
are you more likely to defend to be

00:25:32.580 --> 00:25:35.159
drawn into needing to balance the

00:25:35.159 --> 00:25:37.740
conversation

00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:40.559
worse we're nuanced people we do both

00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.039
but you can tell by well

00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.020
the rest of the group is doing a lot of

00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:47.100
five

00:25:47.100 --> 00:25:49.320
I'm gonna have to do the sixth thing

00:25:49.320 --> 00:25:50.279
again

00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:52.940
it's usually not really that it's

00:25:52.940 --> 00:25:55.380
unbalanced it's that you're defending

00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:58.700
more on one side than the other

00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:01.380
does this one make sense too

00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:02.820
okay

00:26:02.820 --> 00:26:07.100
so now in the chat

00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:11.220
I just want you to give me your code are

00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:13.320
you a one fourth

00:26:13.320 --> 00:26:17.100
one three five or two four six a two

00:26:17.100 --> 00:26:20.220
three six what are you so I'm going to

00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:23.000
write them down

00:26:25.620 --> 00:26:28.200
coming fast

00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:30.360
all right

00:26:30.360 --> 00:26:32.460
I can write them down when you guys are

00:26:32.460 --> 00:26:34.620
in the breakout so

00:26:34.620 --> 00:26:37.340
uh

00:26:38.820 --> 00:26:40.260
okay

00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:43.640
are there any questions

00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:52.740
great so we're going to go now for an

00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:53.940
hour

00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:57.059
and if you need me just call me in

00:26:57.059 --> 00:26:59.220
because you're starting something new

00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:01.860
and it needs a lot of work but you might

00:27:01.860 --> 00:27:04.740
be off track does that make sense so

00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:07.140
just call me in and

00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:09.120
um instead of me trying to explain

00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:11.640
everything about oh I should do one

00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.020
other thing

00:27:13.020 --> 00:27:14.820
um so

00:27:14.820 --> 00:27:17.419
um okay

00:27:17.900 --> 00:27:19.559
so

00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:20.880
um

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.179
we're going now we're going into

00:27:24.179 --> 00:27:27.620
Collective Insight practice

00:27:28.020 --> 00:27:31.679
um okay this is our topic we need an is

00:27:31.679 --> 00:27:34.799
and we need an art

00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:36.960
and you want to feel into what is the

00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.299
state of the world the planet that is

00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:43.500
now remember you're looking for some

00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.520
crazy image or some model or some

00:27:47.520 --> 00:27:49.980
reverse perspective

00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:52.020
but you're staying with this feeling

00:27:52.020 --> 00:27:54.779
what is the state of the planet you're

00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:56.700
not working with your justification

00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:59.220
system or the whole narrative it's like

00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:02.039
you're looking for an insight as if

00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.559
you're looking through the trees and you

00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.260
know there's a bird a very rare bird

00:28:07.260 --> 00:28:09.240
you've heard it there but you need to

00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.900
look it's it's very much looking into

00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:14.700
imaginative space

00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:17.640
it can come to you with a different uh

00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:20.220
smell you might smell

00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:23.580
um but that's the is and then the

00:28:23.580 --> 00:28:25.500
question is what concrete Collective

00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:27.960
actions can be initiated in at what

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.760
scale the ought so while you're looking

00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:34.980
what's happening around

00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:40.440
that moves to what ought to be happening

00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.840
um now we might only get to an is right

00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:44.760
now and that's okay but this is what

00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:46.679
we're moving toward

00:28:46.679 --> 00:28:48.960
now this is well how what you're going

00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.580
to do you're going to notice the arousal

00:28:50.580 --> 00:28:53.220
energy the topic creates in your body it

00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:55.140
has a certain truth feeling that you

00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:57.059
will rely on like what is this day of

00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:58.559
the world planet

00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.659
I don't know how to say that that's a

00:29:00.659 --> 00:29:03.120
really big question but I can feel that

00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:07.200
occupy my body right that feeling is

00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.960
going to generate

00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.179
the Insight or the representation now

00:29:12.179 --> 00:29:14.880
this is where it's different we are not

00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:16.799
interested in you reflecting or

00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:20.700
representing your bodily felt sense

00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:23.940
that's it's kind of like

00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:27.059
um a car the engine is your bodily felt

00:29:27.059 --> 00:29:29.580
sense but to drive it you got to stop

00:29:29.580 --> 00:29:32.039
looking at the engine and you got to get

00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.580
in the car and let it drive you okay so

00:29:35.580 --> 00:29:38.399
we're not interested in that and so you

00:29:38.399 --> 00:29:40.860
want to hold this bodily felt sense and

00:29:40.860 --> 00:29:44.520
you want it to drive insight

00:29:44.520 --> 00:29:46.860
it doesn't matter if the bodily felt

00:29:46.860 --> 00:29:50.100
sense moves into discomfort anxiety

00:29:50.100 --> 00:29:54.840
anger you don't care it's it's the

00:29:54.840 --> 00:29:58.679
energy of insight it's doing its thing

00:29:58.679 --> 00:30:01.980
it is generative of insight you don't

00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:05.580
want to collapse the Insight by

00:30:05.580 --> 00:30:08.760
using words and reflecting and narrating

00:30:08.760 --> 00:30:10.559
or sharing what's happening in your

00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:14.720
bodily experience you want to keep it

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.120
generating energy and what you're

00:30:18.120 --> 00:30:21.480
basically saying is no that's not the

00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:24.000
level that I'm interested in you've got

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.760
to up level it for me into a higher

00:30:26.760 --> 00:30:28.860
imaginative space called representation

00:30:28.860 --> 00:30:32.279
I want it up leveled

00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:33.600
okay

00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:36.059
your body experience is merely the truth

00:30:36.059 --> 00:30:37.740
feeling so the truth feeling is going to

00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:40.200
have a lot of that all that emotion may

00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.720
be that is seeking to be satisfied do

00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:45.659
not interpret it or label it otherwise

00:30:45.659 --> 00:30:47.940
that's the truth feeling well there's a

00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:50.820
lot going on you got to cultivate it in

00:30:50.820 --> 00:30:54.059
order to come up with

00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:55.620
a

00:30:55.620 --> 00:30:58.140
a new representation of reality that

00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.120
you're seeking that's what its function

00:31:00.120 --> 00:31:02.419
is

00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:05.700
allow this suspension of presence in the

00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:08.039
bodily state to generate an up hierarchy

00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:10.679
of meaning out toward the world no show

00:31:10.679 --> 00:31:13.980
me show me show me

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:16.700
this is the kind of sense for trying to

00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:20.700
in in body what do you see is what we're

00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:23.960
concerned with here

00:31:26.399 --> 00:31:28.440
okay so that's how it's different we'll

00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.299
go into this later so that's how it's

00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:33.020
different from Collective

00:31:33.020 --> 00:31:36.360
presence in practice

00:31:36.360 --> 00:31:39.500
does that make sense

00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.220
okay so it's yours to keep okay all

00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:46.860
right no show me show me okay I mean

00:31:46.860 --> 00:31:48.299
you'll go back and forth you want to

00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:50.399
honor that that's the truth sense okay

00:31:50.399 --> 00:31:52.080
that's the truth sense that's the truth

00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:54.000
and then you can say to it the truth of

00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:56.880
what you know the truth of what what

00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.700
what what what

00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:03.200
that's the way we'll work in this energy

00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:11.880
really resist the temptation to share

00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.580
verbally with others what you're

00:32:14.580 --> 00:32:17.100
experiencing it will collapse the

00:32:17.100 --> 00:32:19.080
waveform

00:32:19.080 --> 00:32:22.679
try to resist your own reflecting on it

00:32:22.679 --> 00:32:25.440
that's not as bad because then you can

00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.200
always reboot but it will collapse the

00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:32.039
waveform into person

00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.340
personal and interpersonal

00:32:35.340 --> 00:32:40.820
ideas we want trans personal ideas

00:32:41.100 --> 00:32:43.260
it's not about you

00:32:43.260 --> 00:32:46.020
trans personal ideas feel more

00:32:46.020 --> 00:32:48.919
impersonal

00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.760
you will be able to afterwards sit with

00:32:56.760 --> 00:32:58.860
friends and say what was happening to

00:32:58.860 --> 00:33:01.200
that can be it but in this session

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.899
please do not collapse the waveform

00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:09.419
foreign it will be hard you'll have to

00:33:09.419 --> 00:33:10.799
resist you have to resist the

00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.960
justification you have to resist the

00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.559
social niceties you have to resist

00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.179
feeling alone

00:33:18.179 --> 00:33:20.700
feeling like you have to deal with all

00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:22.620
this stuff alone but this is the

00:33:22.620 --> 00:33:24.919
practice

00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:30.179
okay I'm gonna have

00:33:30.179 --> 00:33:34.080
we're going to do this for uh

00:33:34.080 --> 00:33:36.720
um no we're going to just go in

00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.480
um we're just gonna I model it all the

00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:41.640
time I never ask you guys how you feel I

00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.460
never do that I let David do that

00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:46.559
not interested in the personal not

00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.000
really

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.100
there's too much at stake

00:33:50.100 --> 00:33:52.440
so there you go

00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:53.580
all right

00:33:53.580 --> 00:33:56.700
David does that he's helpful so that's

00:33:56.700 --> 00:33:58.980
helpful and and when we're not in this

00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:01.919
this thing so we're gonna go for 50

00:34:01.919 --> 00:34:04.919
minutes I I lost 10 minutes call me and

00:34:04.919 --> 00:34:06.539
if you're confused

00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:07.860
all right

00:34:07.860 --> 00:34:11.099
so this is very exciting I haven't done

00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:13.080
this in

00:34:13.080 --> 00:34:15.599
nine years I never teach it anymore it's

00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:18.720
too hard for people so let's see what we

00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:21.020
can do

00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:26.359
foreign

00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:34.080
because what you want to do one other

00:34:34.080 --> 00:34:35.700
one other

00:34:35.700 --> 00:34:37.020
um

00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:39.240
instruction

00:34:39.240 --> 00:34:42.300
s if you find all you're doing is

00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:44.280
holding on to the energy there's a lot

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:48.060
of Silence in this work at first and

00:34:48.060 --> 00:34:49.980
that's okay

00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:52.800
and then when someone talks try not

00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.379
you'll try that'll try to make you jump

00:34:55.379 --> 00:34:56.520
on it

00:34:56.520 --> 00:35:00.660
it can but all you someone says oh a

00:35:00.660 --> 00:35:03.000
glass is breaking now that's in your

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:05.940
possibility landscape now just leave it

00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:10.140
there see what else is in your landscape

00:35:10.140 --> 00:35:12.420
so there's a lot of Silence it could be

00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:14.700
a lot of Silence happening and then when

00:35:14.700 --> 00:35:18.000
someone speaks you it the next you know

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.380
kind of like then you want to speak

00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:22.320
which is fine if as soon as he says that

00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.760
you say yes in the tree that's okay

00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:29.520
all right so there can be a lot of

00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:31.560
Silence in this it's truly distributed

00:35:31.560 --> 00:35:34.099
cognition

00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.520
and that's okay

00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.160
let's see

00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:53.660
all right

00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:16.619
I didn't mean to leave my group so early

00:36:16.619 --> 00:36:20.480
I clicked on the link

00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.820
you're muted

00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:28.980
you get a warning and some people click

00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:31.260
right away but it's like 20 seconds and

00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:32.599
they get

00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:35.660
bounced out

00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:37.920
snowshoes do you where do you live

00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.720
Charlie

00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:42.480
I'm just right up the road from I live

00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:47.160
in Lakeville oh you emailed me

00:36:47.160 --> 00:36:49.260
we should have yeah

00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:51.420
I have something happening in there I'll

00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:54.119
send you I'll let you know

00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:56.040
um what it is

00:36:56.040 --> 00:36:57.839
if you want to come over

00:36:57.839 --> 00:36:59.880
I would love to I mean I can help you

00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:03.740
like a year ago right yeah yeah okay

00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:08.180
well well remembered both of you

00:37:08.780 --> 00:37:11.400
no I haven't had anything happening here

00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:13.740
for a while so

00:37:13.740 --> 00:37:16.740
it was interesting that um

00:37:16.740 --> 00:37:19.440
I've managed to run into

00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.500
David and Phoebe in real life oh yeah

00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:24.480
awesome

00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.200
just before they came down and saw you

00:37:28.200 --> 00:37:29.880
yeah they were over here with Rich

00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:32.540
blendell

00:37:34.020 --> 00:37:35.940
okay

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:38.900
how did we do

00:37:40.200 --> 00:37:44.540
all right let's hear some stories

00:37:44.540 --> 00:37:47.840
yeah just there's a lot to talk about

00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:50.939
[Music]

00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:58.980
yeah I

00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:00.660
um

00:38:00.660 --> 00:38:02.339
just to start

00:38:02.339 --> 00:38:05.700
how much I appreciate

00:38:05.700 --> 00:38:09.180
um the uh the invitation of

00:38:09.180 --> 00:38:12.260
uh of to stay

00:38:12.260 --> 00:38:16.400
in a non-personal space

00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:18.680
um

00:38:20.220 --> 00:38:23.460
into not to be self-referencing not to

00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:26.280
start with a self-reference cycle

00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:28.380
um that's just such always a wonderful

00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:31.040
invitation

00:38:31.260 --> 00:38:34.320
and it it allows for the silence

00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.800
to be really rich

00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:41.180
and really appreciated

00:38:52.020 --> 00:38:56.160
I can piggyback off of that

00:38:56.160 --> 00:38:57.359
um

00:38:57.359 --> 00:38:59.520
I was with Ray

00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:02.099
and Charlie and Aaron

00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:04.380
and

00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:05.820
what

00:39:05.820 --> 00:39:08.760
what I appreciate is there was kind of a

00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:11.760
paradox in the invitation to

00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.660
uh

00:39:15.180 --> 00:39:18.000
to to not

00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.760
lead with the personal experience in

00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:22.940
that

00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:25.680
um

00:39:25.680 --> 00:39:28.079
I've been

00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.980
uh

00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:34.320
outside of class getting to know some

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:39.180
new parts of our world and hanging out

00:39:39.180 --> 00:39:41.359
with a lot of representational

00:39:41.359 --> 00:39:46.800
data on these on some dark realities

00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.700
and

00:39:49.700 --> 00:39:54.359
and this allowed me to actually drop

00:39:54.359 --> 00:39:56.520
into

00:39:56.520 --> 00:39:58.700
um

00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:04.560
a deeper felt sense of what the that

00:40:04.560 --> 00:40:09.480
represents representational data

00:40:10.140 --> 00:40:11.640
um

00:40:11.640 --> 00:40:16.859
is depicting about our world so

00:41:27.359 --> 00:41:29.700
I was with um

00:41:29.700 --> 00:41:32.480
either

00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:35.579
Rush

00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:37.680
David

00:41:37.680 --> 00:41:40.400
and John

00:41:40.859 --> 00:41:43.640
and

00:41:44.700 --> 00:41:47.040
among other things

00:41:47.040 --> 00:41:48.540
um

00:41:48.540 --> 00:41:50.099
at some point

00:41:50.099 --> 00:41:53.180
there was this

00:41:54.180 --> 00:41:59.780
uh sickening of a kind of

00:42:02.040 --> 00:42:03.720
that

00:42:03.720 --> 00:42:06.540
this was like a council

00:42:06.540 --> 00:42:09.500
of Elders

00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:12.359
and that

00:42:12.359 --> 00:42:16.280
felt like a very rare

00:42:16.740 --> 00:42:21.119
an impersonal in an impersonal

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:23.720
right

00:42:24.540 --> 00:42:27.240
I don't know if I've ever really

00:42:27.240 --> 00:42:30.440
experienced that

00:42:30.720 --> 00:42:32.940
so that's something we can put in our

00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:35.099
possibility landscape a Council of

00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:36.960
Elders we don't have to understand it

00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.540
we're not interested in understanding it

00:42:39.540 --> 00:42:42.660
yet right yes that's good the way you

00:42:42.660 --> 00:42:45.599
said that yeah

00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.260
foreign

00:42:48.380 --> 00:42:51.180
just say what's something I think Walt

00:42:51.180 --> 00:42:52.619
Whitman said was

00:42:52.619 --> 00:42:56.900
we were together I forget the rest

00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:09.900
so imagine us you know doing one of

00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.420
these graphic novel not graphic

00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:15.599
recordings so we have Council of adlers

00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.220
and then someone writes we were together

00:43:17.220 --> 00:43:21.140
I forget the rest this is

00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.839
what is shaping in this

00:43:24.839 --> 00:43:26.640
even though you just thought of it now

00:43:26.640 --> 00:43:28.940
but

00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:34.380
I was with Justin and for me the image

00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:36.900
of being on the street corners

00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:40.859
and flash mob started and um so we were

00:43:40.859 --> 00:43:42.960
playing with

00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:44.160
um

00:43:44.160 --> 00:43:46.319
uh

00:43:46.319 --> 00:43:47.880
the

00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.619
power of something like a flash mob to

00:43:52.619 --> 00:43:53.640
um

00:43:53.640 --> 00:43:57.180
uh you know to to bring people together

00:43:57.180 --> 00:44:00.060
and and and bring in some some kind of a

00:44:00.060 --> 00:44:02.400
new coherence that wasn't there and then

00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.500
we played with

00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:07.020
um bells ringing or gestures on the

00:44:07.020 --> 00:44:10.940
corner or uh a representation of chaos

00:44:10.940 --> 00:44:15.480
uh that's actual real to what's

00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:16.800
happening

00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:19.500
things being

00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:20.420
um

00:44:20.420 --> 00:44:23.460
publicly uh

00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:26.400
shown

00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:29.040
and also fractals lots of different

00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:31.859
things so that so that there's a way of

00:44:31.859 --> 00:44:35.819
coming out of stupor into

00:44:35.819 --> 00:44:37.980
um participating with something that

00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:40.920
that is uh

00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:43.040
um

00:44:43.200 --> 00:44:46.859
lifts one into a new place that's the

00:44:46.859 --> 00:44:49.380
images sorts of images that we were

00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:51.420
having and we're talking about the

00:44:51.420 --> 00:44:54.119
threshold of um

00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:57.599
from what we see to action and being in

00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:58.380
a

00:44:58.380 --> 00:45:02.220
a way to open that threshold so that it

00:45:02.220 --> 00:45:03.960
becomes

00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:05.339
um

00:45:05.339 --> 00:45:08.339
pause there so that they're so so

00:45:08.339 --> 00:45:12.420
capacity can start to show up and build

00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:14.640
and uh

00:45:14.640 --> 00:45:17.760
no he had an image of uh the image of

00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.339
the tools of ancient tools that that

00:45:20.339 --> 00:45:25.500
were that changed the world as a fractal

00:45:25.500 --> 00:45:27.180
um and uh

00:45:27.180 --> 00:45:29.339
so I'm just sort of peppering the space

00:45:29.339 --> 00:45:33.079
with partial thoughts that we had but um

00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:34.980
the

00:45:34.980 --> 00:45:39.000
what was alive for me and that was

00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.460
um again like you said Ray not

00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:45.480
referencing the person although I did

00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:47.839
reference my experience as part of

00:45:47.839 --> 00:45:50.760
accessing something but

00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.680
um

00:45:52.680 --> 00:45:55.440
playing with uh

00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:59.400
possibility in a collective way that uh

00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:04.880
felt very generative and um

00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.280
and on a different level

00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:17.280
so for me what things off is a flash mob

00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:20.640
that does you know these flash mobs they

00:46:20.640 --> 00:46:24.060
walk in they don't want anyone to know

00:46:24.060 --> 00:46:26.819
what if the flat people in the flash mob

00:46:26.819 --> 00:46:30.740
didn't know they were in the flash mob

00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:34.800
and then you said ancient tools until

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.040
they started to see

00:46:38.040 --> 00:46:40.920
tools that they hadn't seen before

00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.960
and then the people that see the tools

00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:44.579
become a flat but they don't know they

00:46:44.579 --> 00:46:47.599
were in a flash mob

00:47:07.319 --> 00:47:09.960
so I went ahead I didn't hear the prompt

00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:11.940
for this part my computer was slow

00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:14.760
coming in but I want to add that what

00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:17.540
pings off

00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:20.460
what pings off was so important in that

00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:23.040
experience for me so relevant

00:47:23.040 --> 00:47:27.420
I found myself wanting to build on

00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:30.359
but there was a tension

00:47:30.359 --> 00:47:36.720
between building on what was presented

00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:41.400
and staying open to what was out there

00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:43.380
for us

00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:46.880
there was this uh

00:47:47.220 --> 00:47:51.359
kind of ease to fall into

00:47:51.359 --> 00:47:56.540
oh yeah you said and I feel this

00:47:56.819 --> 00:48:00.720
and yet I felt really a lot of potency

00:48:00.720 --> 00:48:02.579
in

00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:06.380
looking for an image

00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:16.280
and not simply pinging off as a default

00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:20.339
good distinction it depends if it comes

00:48:20.339 --> 00:48:23.160
like a social need like she just said

00:48:23.160 --> 00:48:25.560
that and then I literally I started

00:48:25.560 --> 00:48:28.560
seeing people walking and how they walk

00:48:28.560 --> 00:48:30.060
and then I'm like well what if they

00:48:30.060 --> 00:48:33.420
don't know so it just it just it was

00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:36.660
just images in my but if you're like if

00:48:36.660 --> 00:48:39.180
it's a social need and then okay she

00:48:39.180 --> 00:48:41.520
talked first now let me follow up then

00:48:41.520 --> 00:48:44.040
it's not right so it depends but if you

00:48:44.040 --> 00:48:45.839
just get this hit

00:48:45.839 --> 00:48:48.240
like that's

00:48:48.240 --> 00:48:50.839
yeah

00:48:55.560 --> 00:48:57.420
yeah I would say too that I really

00:48:57.420 --> 00:48:59.280
appreciate the invitation to work with

00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:01.740
images to to Really

00:49:01.740 --> 00:49:03.420
um

00:49:03.420 --> 00:49:06.740
to allow that

00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:12.119
what feels really more natural to me

00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.119
um sort of be brought into

00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.880
a collective

00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:18.720
um

00:49:18.720 --> 00:49:20.940
space

00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:23.579
um to participate in that way like to

00:49:23.579 --> 00:49:24.780
allow

00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:27.720
images to be

00:49:27.720 --> 00:49:30.720
prominent

00:49:31.859 --> 00:49:35.359
in a in a

00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:38.180
sort of seeking

00:49:38.180 --> 00:49:40.980
new space to like I also really

00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:42.900
appreciated this

00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:44.760
sense of

00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.940
really trying to stay to or move towards

00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:52.680
the edge of what is already

00:49:52.680 --> 00:49:54.000
um

00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.700
known and also sort of moving using the

00:49:56.700 --> 00:50:00.240
felt sense for another purpose like you

00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:02.700
know rather than staying there so that

00:50:02.700 --> 00:50:05.480
was really interesting

00:50:51.720 --> 00:50:54.540
and I thought it fascinating to move

00:50:54.540 --> 00:50:57.780
from my personal Insight practice to a

00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:00.000
setting with four and a collective

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:02.460
Insight practice I thought that was

00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:05.839
a great experience

00:51:10.740 --> 00:51:13.079
to search for possibility Landscapes

00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:15.500
which

00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:19.760
might unfold over time

00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.839
foreign

00:51:27.319 --> 00:51:31.400
with me I'll mute

00:51:44.180 --> 00:51:47.760
any last shares before we go to your

00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:49.200
justification

00:51:49.200 --> 00:51:52.859
system technology

00:51:53.640 --> 00:51:55.619
I just want to Ping off of what you said

00:51:55.619 --> 00:51:58.140
Bonnie because what was jumping into my

00:51:58.140 --> 00:52:00.180
mind is uh

00:52:00.180 --> 00:52:02.760
um the idea of flash mob that that

00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:05.099
random

00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:09.359
random initiators of flash mob and it

00:52:09.359 --> 00:52:11.400
could be people and it could be things

00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:14.460
but but somehow that all of a sudden

00:52:14.460 --> 00:52:17.099
someone is like it's your it you're

00:52:17.099 --> 00:52:19.619
chosen and you're the you're the

00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:21.660
initiator and

00:52:21.660 --> 00:52:24.839
and so be a radical

00:52:24.839 --> 00:52:26.960
um

00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:30.599
um challenge for each person but for

00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:32.700
everybody to be in a whole new different

00:52:32.700 --> 00:52:35.099
relationship of

00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:38.400
um being together so that was yeah about

00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:40.380
this thing we built because you now you

00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:42.059
can walk out into the streets if you

00:52:42.059 --> 00:52:43.260
happen to live somewhere where there's

00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:45.240
people in the streets are go and you and

00:52:45.240 --> 00:52:47.220
what if you walk walked out and you just

00:52:47.220 --> 00:52:49.800
looked at everyone and you said

00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:53.540
there's a flash mob in here

00:52:54.540 --> 00:52:57.240
then you generate a lot of insight right

00:52:57.240 --> 00:53:00.359
like this can be a perspectival switch

00:53:00.359 --> 00:53:03.960
and just say that and just look and

00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:06.599
notice maybe you notice I'll just do it

00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:08.700
now like someone a little child I see

00:53:08.700 --> 00:53:11.280
picking up something they drop and

00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:14.640
people are walking by what is this

00:53:14.640 --> 00:53:17.940
what is it to see societies of flash mob

00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:19.980
waiting to happen

00:53:19.980 --> 00:53:23.400
this is generative Insight right like

00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:26.300
yeah

00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.319
yeah I was going to say the experience

00:53:28.319 --> 00:53:30.540
for me so like we were making art

00:53:30.540 --> 00:53:32.880
together like each of our bodies was a

00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:35.040
paintbrush or an instrument

00:53:35.040 --> 00:53:37.619
and someone would create a line and then

00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:38.700
we would

00:53:38.700 --> 00:53:41.700
you know sometimes riff off that line or

00:53:41.700 --> 00:53:44.700
go to a different place but um yeah I

00:53:44.700 --> 00:53:45.900
love what you're saying about that the

00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:48.720
the flash mob and seeing the world

00:53:48.720 --> 00:53:50.280
around you as art and how can you

00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:52.740
participate as an artist to

00:53:52.740 --> 00:53:54.839
make make it more beautiful or to

00:53:54.839 --> 00:53:58.099
contribute or to collaborate

00:53:58.140 --> 00:54:00.900
yeah we're learning how to see right

00:54:00.900 --> 00:54:03.420
this is what real case said for the for

00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:05.099
something's changing and we're learning

00:54:05.099 --> 00:54:06.900
how to see we're doing it bad this

00:54:06.900 --> 00:54:09.359
definition of an artist really is to

00:54:09.359 --> 00:54:10.980
help

00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:15.920
us understand how we're learning to see

00:54:16.680 --> 00:54:19.500
and you notice now how we're stretching

00:54:19.500 --> 00:54:21.359
the theory of the body it's the felt

00:54:21.359 --> 00:54:23.819
sense it's doing it but it's an up

00:54:23.819 --> 00:54:27.380
hierarchy into these more imaginative

00:54:27.380 --> 00:54:31.440
Visionary Insight aspects of

00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.460
the the human

00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.559
okay gonna share I just wanted to add

00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:51.780
some Holly's group that just I guess so

00:54:51.780 --> 00:54:53.339
experienced there's a lot of oscillation

00:54:53.339 --> 00:54:54.780
energy

00:54:54.780 --> 00:54:57.480
kind of between

00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:59.119
like

00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:02.339
breaking and building known and unknown

00:55:02.339 --> 00:55:06.599
that felt generative that oscillatory

00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:09.140
energy

00:55:12.300 --> 00:55:14.220
yeah it's it's

00:55:14.220 --> 00:55:16.619
the exercise breaks a certain way of

00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:18.059
being together

00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:20.359
and so your body's

00:55:20.359 --> 00:55:23.700
you know in superposition

00:55:23.700 --> 00:55:26.700
no longer they're not quite yet over

00:55:26.700 --> 00:55:28.440
here

00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:30.839
um so

00:55:30.839 --> 00:55:32.960
um

00:55:34.460 --> 00:55:37.380
you know this is what a lot of the work

00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:41.280
of like Duluth and Conway and Chandler

00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:43.140
they're writing

00:55:43.140 --> 00:55:44.940
the way they look at the world from

00:55:44.940 --> 00:55:46.920
completely different kind of mental

00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:48.900
models why don't we try this one on why

00:55:48.900 --> 00:55:50.700
don't we try that everyone what is is it

00:55:50.700 --> 00:55:52.980
useful kind of thing why have you been

00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:55.160
here

00:55:55.800 --> 00:55:57.059
okay

00:55:57.059 --> 00:55:58.920
all very good

00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:00.900
um are there any other questions about

00:56:00.900 --> 00:56:03.859
the methodology

00:56:08.040 --> 00:56:11.460
so I think I have a question if if we

00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:15.359
were expert in this would it look sort

00:56:15.359 --> 00:56:17.520
of that we would all be practiced in

00:56:17.520 --> 00:56:19.740
finding that truth feeling and then

00:56:19.740 --> 00:56:22.619
centering around a problem and just like

00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:25.859
letting the insights emerge is that sort

00:56:25.859 --> 00:56:27.300
of what

00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:30.839
yeah yeah so one of the difficulties

00:56:30.839 --> 00:56:33.480
with this group is that we don't have a

00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.460
shared project

00:56:35.460 --> 00:56:39.180
so the only thing we can share is this

00:56:39.180 --> 00:56:40.559
huge

00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:42.359
question

00:56:42.359 --> 00:56:45.000
but if you work with a team of experts

00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:48.000
trying to solve like

00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:49.980
um what's happening in this community or

00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:51.680
what's happening in this organization

00:56:51.680 --> 00:56:57.300
then you could have a more doable topic

00:56:57.300 --> 00:57:00.180
but for a group that comes from all over

00:57:00.180 --> 00:57:03.839
the place the topic unfortunately has to

00:57:03.839 --> 00:57:07.079
be very large because it's it has to be

00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:11.700
a shared topic a shared context I tried

00:57:11.700 --> 00:57:14.280
to think of a better one but

00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:17.400
there's too much diversity here so

00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:19.920
um so that's both it's that's that's its

00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.079
usefulness but that's its problem it

00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:24.420
that's why we won't get to gold tuning

00:57:24.420 --> 00:57:28.020
because it's it's not

00:57:28.020 --> 00:57:30.420
but I think we did have some good some

00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:32.579
good experience with it

00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:35.280
um so as a facilitator reflected Insight

00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:37.680
practice you want to teach experts to do

00:57:37.680 --> 00:57:40.140
this and the challenge there is for them

00:57:40.140 --> 00:57:43.200
to experts have expert justification

00:57:43.200 --> 00:57:44.760
systems

00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:47.640
so there is a challenge there

00:57:47.640 --> 00:57:51.000
um but uh because they're ex they have

00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:54.059
expertise their imagination will lead

00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:57.660
them to things that more uh quickly lead

00:57:57.660 --> 00:58:01.980
to Gold tuning and experimentation so

00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:05.359
um yeah that's a very good question

00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:13.440
okay so we are going to

00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:14.280
um

00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:16.020
you can

00:58:16.020 --> 00:58:20.160
um you um you did your justification

00:58:20.160 --> 00:58:23.099
things all right so

00:58:23.099 --> 00:58:23.700
um

00:58:23.700 --> 00:58:25.619
some of these words aren't perfect for

00:58:25.619 --> 00:58:28.380
everyone but

00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:32.280
um whoops so

00:58:32.579 --> 00:58:33.599
um

00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:36.780
I'll just start with me I'm a two four

00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:37.920
six

00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:41.579
okay so that means that as a kid I

00:58:41.579 --> 00:58:45.180
tended to take power I talk conceptually

00:58:45.180 --> 00:58:49.640
and I try to describe to find and defend

00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:53.460
the individual uh um

00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:55.920
individual opportunities

00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:59.720
and these are all archetypes so 246 in

00:58:59.720 --> 00:59:02.940
uh Collective space

00:59:02.940 --> 00:59:05.520
um tend to be what I call rankers

00:59:05.520 --> 00:59:09.240
They Know Who Holds power and they

00:59:09.240 --> 00:59:11.400
immediate like like

00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.940
this is typical ranking John dravecki

00:59:14.940 --> 00:59:18.240
creates after Socrates Bonnie creates

00:59:18.240 --> 00:59:20.760
before Socrates and the rankers want to

00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:22.500
see if they can

00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:25.079
get a little ahead of the the guy at the

00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:27.420
top I'll go to conference don't know

00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:30.480
anybody get some food sit down I

00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:33.599
instinctually know who the the lead guy

00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:35.700
or as the lead person is who holds the

00:59:35.700 --> 00:59:37.680
power and then I'd start talking I'm

00:59:37.680 --> 00:59:39.900
like oh whatever

00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:42.299
um so if you don't know you're a ranker

00:59:42.299 --> 00:59:44.940
it can lead to all kinds of conflict

00:59:44.940 --> 00:59:48.540
because you're in uh competition all the

00:59:48.540 --> 00:59:49.619
time

00:59:49.619 --> 00:59:52.579
number one you're always

00:59:52.579 --> 00:59:55.140
interfacing with the top person who's

00:59:55.140 --> 00:59:59.220
also a ranker or could be a ranker and

00:59:59.220 --> 01:00:01.559
um you're in competition with them so

01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:04.559
this is the archetype or the rancor we

01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:07.380
have one ranker in here I've known that

01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:11.040
for a while and that's the kind of what

01:00:11.040 --> 01:00:14.760
it feels like to be a ranker

01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:18.119
um and it's okay to be a ranker unless

01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:20.520
it's driving you crazy

01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:22.260
um and once you just know that's who you

01:00:22.260 --> 01:00:24.540
are then you'll just say oh that's that

01:00:24.540 --> 01:00:26.520
thing I'm I'm in a relationship with

01:00:26.520 --> 01:00:30.299
another ranker uh that it can it can be

01:00:30.299 --> 01:00:33.839
very uh that kind of friction can be

01:00:33.839 --> 01:00:35.640
very fruitful

01:00:35.640 --> 01:00:37.799
um if if you you know get out of the

01:00:37.799 --> 01:00:40.619
justification you need to justify all

01:00:40.619 --> 01:00:42.660
the time you justify the energy or

01:00:42.660 --> 01:00:45.240
unless until unless you just let it let

01:00:45.240 --> 01:00:47.040
it happen so

01:00:47.040 --> 01:00:49.920
um I'm a two whoops

01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:51.780
um so these are stereotypes so you kind

01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:53.940
of understand them I'm very much a two

01:00:53.940 --> 01:00:57.599
four six like it's it's I created this

01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:00.299
after this is a model I made it's an

01:01:00.299 --> 01:01:02.400
inside I had after three years of we

01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:04.339
space practice

01:01:04.339 --> 01:01:08.040
noticing how different people

01:01:08.040 --> 01:01:10.200
um had these modes of being and then I

01:01:10.200 --> 01:01:12.240
created the test and I was trying to

01:01:12.240 --> 01:01:13.559
figure out what are the fundamental

01:01:13.559 --> 01:01:15.780
complexes that they come from and I

01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:18.480
created the questions out of it

01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:23.040
um okay so can you share sorry uh I

01:01:23.040 --> 01:01:24.960
don't see 246 in there I just don't

01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:27.359
understand the pattern two four six

01:01:27.359 --> 01:01:31.740
right two four six oh two four six oh

01:01:31.740 --> 01:01:32.960
okay

01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:36.540
three six is an obligator or uh they're

01:01:36.540 --> 01:01:38.640
interested in obligation highly

01:01:38.640 --> 01:01:41.099
disciplined people

01:01:41.099 --> 01:01:43.140
um uh

01:01:43.140 --> 01:01:44.579
um

01:01:44.579 --> 01:01:45.299
um

01:01:45.299 --> 01:01:48.480
like the best teacher you had that

01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:51.480
seemed like very strict and Stern but

01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:53.400
they got you to get the thing done you

01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:55.740
know to really get things done and done

01:01:55.740 --> 01:01:57.839
well so they're they're justified by

01:01:57.839 --> 01:02:00.420
obligation

01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:03.180
um the proof is in the pudding uh the

01:02:03.180 --> 01:02:07.079
work you do the you know the proof is in

01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:10.020
the pudding or obligation obligator

01:02:10.020 --> 01:02:11.819
um these are all harsh terms so there's

01:02:11.819 --> 01:02:14.040
nicer terms for them but

01:02:14.040 --> 01:02:15.859
they

01:02:15.859 --> 01:02:19.020
refer to how you get caught up in trying

01:02:19.020 --> 01:02:21.660
to justify your position

01:02:21.660 --> 01:02:22.319
um

01:02:22.319 --> 01:02:23.880
um and then they and then they have

01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:28.319
their their gifts also so obligation

01:02:28.319 --> 01:02:30.480
these are all the power people so these

01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:31.920
are all the people that answered too but

01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:34.020
then there's the four types

01:02:34.020 --> 01:02:37.619
a two four five is a pontificator okay

01:02:37.619 --> 01:02:42.059
what they do is they justify by showing

01:02:42.059 --> 01:02:46.460
a hierarchy of values

01:02:46.740 --> 01:02:48.660
um or anything that has like yes I

01:02:48.660 --> 01:02:50.760
understand but then we can improve or

01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:53.040
this is better or they zoom out we don't

01:02:53.040 --> 01:02:57.020
think we had any pontificators here

01:02:57.240 --> 01:02:59.160
and once did this in front of the

01:02:59.160 --> 01:03:00.900
integral community and there's this guy

01:03:00.900 --> 01:03:04.020
Father David who's a Jesuit priest he

01:03:04.020 --> 01:03:06.180
turned out to be a pontificator which

01:03:06.180 --> 01:03:08.520
was really funny because he's a Jesuit

01:03:08.520 --> 01:03:10.079
priest

01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:11.640
um okay

01:03:11.640 --> 01:03:13.799
if you are two three five you're into

01:03:13.799 --> 01:03:16.740
connections or maybe another word for is

01:03:16.740 --> 01:03:20.700
uh networking networking connections you

01:03:20.700 --> 01:03:23.579
justify by how many people in the field

01:03:23.579 --> 01:03:26.940
in the Medics and this and that and

01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:28.920
you're always looking at networks of

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.920
people and connections and putting

01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:34.859
people together and putting ideas within

01:03:34.859 --> 01:03:37.140
communities of people does that make

01:03:37.140 --> 01:03:38.760
sense I don't know if we I think we had

01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:41.960
some two three fives here

01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:45.839
Bonnie I had a problem with the first

01:03:45.839 --> 01:03:48.359
one yes but you were a four or five

01:03:48.359 --> 01:03:52.319
right yeah so you're either they're very

01:03:52.319 --> 01:03:54.720
close you're either that and that that's

01:03:54.720 --> 01:03:57.480
an that's what that's just like the

01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:00.599
sharing knowledge you do a lot of this

01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:05.220
it's whether or not you evaluate it I

01:04:05.220 --> 01:04:08.819
think you're a one four five because you

01:04:08.819 --> 01:04:10.920
just you hear something and then you

01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:12.540
share and then you give us these

01:04:12.540 --> 01:04:15.240
resources and you don't feel like you're

01:04:15.240 --> 01:04:17.700
saying something is better and in fact

01:04:17.700 --> 01:04:19.619
you don't even like

01:04:19.619 --> 01:04:23.160
staged area and stuff so I have to say

01:04:23.160 --> 01:04:25.440
you're a one four five

01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:28.559
that's what I was hoping it's just I

01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:31.980
don't remember anything yeah of my early

01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:35.460
school years that's I said we could read

01:04:35.460 --> 01:04:38.400
a reverse engineer it but I think you're

01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:42.480
a 145 yeah yes uh-huh you might have you

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:44.160
have a lot of power now you might have

01:04:44.160 --> 01:04:47.760
been quiet and not really a approval

01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:50.099
Seeker but just quiet and behind the

01:04:50.099 --> 01:04:52.260
scenes or something like that but this

01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:54.859
shy knowledge that you do is a typical

01:04:54.859 --> 01:04:58.619
it's a very beautiful uh expression of

01:04:58.619 --> 01:05:01.920
this typology you don't even care like a

01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:03.359
lot of times you just say I'll just put

01:05:03.359 --> 01:05:05.760
it there you know and I'll just put it

01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:09.059
there I just this is this is

01:05:09.059 --> 01:05:13.319
um one time I did this in Europe and

01:05:13.319 --> 01:05:14.880
um I used to have I used to have

01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:17.940
people's names in here so Chomsky is a

01:05:17.940 --> 01:05:20.099
one four five I used to have these

01:05:20.099 --> 01:05:22.740
people that represented them and I was

01:05:22.740 --> 01:05:23.940
in Germany and people didn't know

01:05:23.940 --> 01:05:26.819
Chomsky and this guy is like oh Chomsky

01:05:26.819 --> 01:05:28.200
is an American dollar bone he wrote

01:05:28.200 --> 01:05:30.599
these books and then he was a one four

01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:33.540
five he realized he was doing exactly

01:05:33.540 --> 01:05:36.480
what a 145 was doing by talking about

01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:38.940
all this stuff about Chomsky and you

01:05:38.940 --> 01:05:41.940
don't with a one four five you don't get

01:05:41.940 --> 01:05:43.559
the feeling that they're trying to

01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:45.180
convince you but they're trying to be

01:05:45.180 --> 01:05:48.660
just a resource right it's just a a

01:05:48.660 --> 01:05:50.880
resource so yeah I think you are

01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:52.799
definitely a 145.

01:05:52.799 --> 01:05:56.700
a pontificator will have some

01:05:56.700 --> 01:05:58.619
but if we look at it this way it's

01:05:58.619 --> 01:06:03.480
better you know like like some kind of

01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:05.940
ladder

01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:09.020
um that they'll put it on

01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:13.619
um okay and then let's do the ones one

01:06:13.619 --> 01:06:16.020
four five we did I think we had a couple

01:06:16.020 --> 01:06:19.020
other 145s

01:06:19.020 --> 01:06:21.180
um you may or may not recognize yourself

01:06:21.180 --> 01:06:23.099
in these

01:06:23.099 --> 01:06:25.700
um let me also say this

01:06:25.700 --> 01:06:28.500
introverts and extroverts are different

01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:30.960
also in Wii space but

01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:32.819
um like you could be a one four five and

01:06:32.819 --> 01:06:35.339
if you were extremely introverted you

01:06:35.339 --> 01:06:38.400
wouldn't show up as as madalina does

01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:40.319
you would just think of all these

01:06:40.319 --> 01:06:44.760
resources that are in play right

01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:47.579
okay we have a lot of one three fives

01:06:47.579 --> 01:06:50.039
these people and this is the emphasis on

01:06:50.039 --> 01:06:52.980
belonging needs you justify things by

01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:54.480
you want

01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:56.000
but

01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:58.680
the community of Brotherhood or the

01:06:58.680 --> 01:07:00.780
Divinity of Fellowship where people need

01:07:00.780 --> 01:07:03.720
to belong every you want a big umbrella

01:07:03.720 --> 01:07:06.900
that everyone can belong under so this

01:07:06.900 --> 01:07:09.720
is the more people who can belong

01:07:09.720 --> 01:07:14.460
um then this is justifies justifies

01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:17.819
one thing over the other so inclusivity

01:07:17.819 --> 01:07:19.740
belonging

01:07:19.740 --> 01:07:20.400
um

01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:23.520
these also can show that

01:07:23.520 --> 01:07:27.359
um they can turn into belonging needs in

01:07:27.359 --> 01:07:30.000
spaces so you might not know if you

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.220
really belong and you really try hard to

01:07:32.220 --> 01:07:33.720
belong

01:07:33.720 --> 01:07:38.400
um so there's a lot of 135s

01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:40.380
um

01:07:40.380 --> 01:07:42.539
in here that was a big that was the

01:07:42.539 --> 01:07:46.319
largest grouping so you all belong here

01:07:46.319 --> 01:07:47.640
because there's more one three fives

01:07:47.640 --> 01:07:49.440
anybody else here

01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:51.299
somehow that happens we did this one

01:07:51.299 --> 01:07:53.819
already there's no one three sixes there

01:07:53.819 --> 01:07:56.280
were no one three sixes or these were

01:07:56.280 --> 01:07:57.359
empty

01:07:57.359 --> 01:08:02.640
the 136s are very hard cookies in uh in

01:08:02.640 --> 01:08:06.599
real in Collective spaces they are

01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:09.780
influencers just like on Tick Tock right

01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:13.740
they're there to connect they want your

01:08:13.740 --> 01:08:17.100
approval uh they tell nice stories this

01:08:17.100 --> 01:08:19.319
and that but they they there are really

01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:21.900
after individual power right individual

01:08:21.900 --> 01:08:26.279
rights so uh uh influencers are very

01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:27.839
important

01:08:27.839 --> 01:08:32.040
um they they they work the room let's

01:08:32.040 --> 01:08:35.940
say this is a term people use

01:08:35.940 --> 01:08:36.960
um

01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:39.179
connectors are more likely to say oh you

01:08:39.179 --> 01:08:40.620
should go talk to him he'd really like

01:08:40.620 --> 01:08:44.640
to hear this influencers are trying to

01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:47.160
anchor all the connections onto

01:08:47.160 --> 01:08:49.319
themselves it's like Tick Tock that you

01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:53.040
know this word we use influencers

01:08:53.040 --> 01:08:55.920
um and then 146 is our politicians

01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:57.359
they're the ones who want to be the

01:08:57.359 --> 01:08:59.940
Mayors they know everybody they like

01:08:59.940 --> 01:09:01.880
everybody they know everyone's children

01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:04.859
they like everyone's children they

01:09:04.859 --> 01:09:06.900
they're very good at making things

01:09:06.900 --> 01:09:08.819
happen

01:09:08.819 --> 01:09:11.400
um they're reasonable

01:09:11.400 --> 01:09:14.160
um so not that but you know there can be

01:09:14.160 --> 01:09:15.540
some negative things that could be

01:09:15.540 --> 01:09:20.160
running for mayor versus being the mayor

01:09:20.160 --> 01:09:24.600
um and those 146's we call politicians

01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:28.440
so does anybody want to comment on this

01:09:28.440 --> 01:09:33.259
little game we played before we leave

01:09:36.420 --> 01:09:39.540
Barney I was a one three six

01:09:39.540 --> 01:09:40.679
oh

01:09:40.679 --> 01:09:44.339
which did I say nobody was a 136 yeah

01:09:44.339 --> 01:09:48.960
oh who who's this Rose Liz yeah I didn't

01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:50.819
even write you down

01:09:50.819 --> 01:09:53.819
no

01:09:55.470 --> 01:09:59.219
[Laughter]

01:09:59.219 --> 01:10:03.739
it can be very hard in Collective space

01:10:03.980 --> 01:10:06.600
do you recognize that as you or you just

01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:09.420
no there this is a game so it doesn't

01:10:09.420 --> 01:10:11.640
seem to have energy for you

01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:14.340
yeah I'm not I'm not sure I really

01:10:14.340 --> 01:10:17.340
understood what you said about that how

01:10:17.340 --> 01:10:19.620
how that person operates I'll probably

01:10:19.620 --> 01:10:22.880
is a one three five six

01:10:22.980 --> 01:10:25.790
they have a lot of power the

01:10:25.790 --> 01:10:27.960
[Music]

01:10:27.960 --> 01:10:30.960
on Bulgaria the amazing

01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:33.300
she doesn't stand in front of an

01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:35.040
audience and tell them what to do she

01:10:35.040 --> 01:10:37.560
works everyone

01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:40.440
uh one by one and then all of a sudden

01:10:40.440 --> 01:10:42.659
everyone's doing that

01:10:42.659 --> 01:10:45.719
they're influencers

01:10:45.719 --> 01:10:47.120
in in in

01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:50.219
Collective space if it can be they can

01:10:50.219 --> 01:10:52.020
we're rankers and Collective space are

01:10:52.020 --> 01:10:54.480
fighting with each other influencers are

01:10:54.480 --> 01:10:57.360
working behind the scenes you don't even

01:10:57.360 --> 01:10:58.739
know why all of a sudden everyone

01:10:58.739 --> 01:11:01.380
changed their mind because an influencer

01:11:01.380 --> 01:11:04.080
has been trying to influence them about

01:11:04.080 --> 01:11:06.900
this position or that

01:11:06.900 --> 01:11:09.300
um they don't they don't

01:11:09.300 --> 01:11:13.199
the mayor is going to establish things

01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:15.300
by speaking to everyone

01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:17.340
the connector is going to say you should

01:11:17.340 --> 01:11:18.719
talk to this you should talk and the

01:11:18.719 --> 01:11:20.940
influencer is trying to behind the

01:11:20.940 --> 01:11:21.960
scenes

01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:25.040
persuade people

01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:29.159
um so in Collective space it can be

01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:33.480
um it can be uh people get really mad

01:11:33.480 --> 01:11:36.540
because it's not they're not in the

01:11:36.540 --> 01:11:39.719
they're not being Collective

01:11:39.719 --> 01:11:42.179
but they have a lot of influence

01:11:42.179 --> 01:11:43.980
it's like on Tick Tock you know the

01:11:43.980 --> 01:11:47.840
influencers they're very powerful

01:11:48.920 --> 01:11:51.840
yeah thanks for laying it out I'll feel

01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:56.000
it I'll feel into it more yeah

01:11:56.040 --> 01:11:57.900
I forgot to write you I didn't even

01:11:57.900 --> 01:12:00.600
write you on my list which is why

01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:03.749
[Music]

01:12:04.980 --> 01:12:06.540
he came in late you might not have

01:12:06.540 --> 01:12:08.159
actually done it

01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:11.280
no I did it did you put it in the chat I

01:12:11.280 --> 01:12:15.860
did oh okay well that was my fault

01:12:17.100 --> 01:12:20.820
anyways it's interesting to you know to

01:12:20.820 --> 01:12:22.860
notice that these are different

01:12:22.860 --> 01:12:26.400
with people who are nuanced

01:12:26.400 --> 01:12:30.600
um people who are mature we don't we

01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:34.440
become less stereotypical over time

01:12:34.440 --> 01:12:37.260
um people who are not mature like pretty

01:12:37.260 --> 01:12:39.120
conventional they'll show up very

01:12:39.120 --> 01:12:41.159
strongly

01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:44.219
it's justification systems and so it can

01:12:44.219 --> 01:12:47.719
be helpful for you to just understand

01:12:47.719 --> 01:12:50.699
that oh they're justifying this is their

01:12:50.699 --> 01:12:53.280
justification system and then you can

01:12:53.280 --> 01:12:56.880
work on Switching the justification

01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:59.400
system or examining the justification

01:12:59.400 --> 01:13:01.560
system but

01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:03.659
um yeah

01:13:03.659 --> 01:13:06.360
you know highly nuanced people

01:13:06.360 --> 01:13:08.340
um

01:13:08.340 --> 01:13:11.460
you know we're all we all unders we're

01:13:11.460 --> 01:13:13.199
all trying to expand and Nuance our

01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:15.600
personality so

01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:18.000
I'm not very nuanced actually how many

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:22.460
numbers much of a 246 but

01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:29.040
any other questions

01:13:29.040 --> 01:13:31.440
I just have a quick question about how

01:13:31.440 --> 01:13:34.560
you devised like

01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:37.800
um the the system so like is the one two

01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:40.440
the primary thing first like how we sort

01:13:40.440 --> 01:13:42.120
of like if it's approval seeking or

01:13:42.120 --> 01:13:44.400
going for control like that's the

01:13:44.400 --> 01:13:46.260
dominant one and then the other ones are

01:13:46.260 --> 01:13:48.300
subcategories of that

01:13:48.300 --> 01:13:50.699
yeah that's a very good question I

01:13:50.699 --> 01:13:52.380
almost forgot

01:13:52.380 --> 01:13:55.020
um so the last two it was clear to me

01:13:55.020 --> 01:13:57.000
that there were Republicans and

01:13:57.000 --> 01:13:59.640
Democrats all right so individual rights

01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:00.960
and collectives

01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:04.080
and I realized that was a scale

01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:07.080
and then the middle one that was also

01:14:07.080 --> 01:14:09.540
something you always see in Collective

01:14:09.540 --> 01:14:12.480
we space Oh you're too conceptual you

01:14:12.480 --> 01:14:15.120
know tell us how you feel so that was

01:14:15.120 --> 01:14:18.420
obviously very clear

01:14:18.420 --> 01:14:20.340
but

01:14:20.340 --> 01:14:24.020
I had these two two

01:14:24.020 --> 01:14:26.880
valences but there was something missing

01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:29.340
and then I went to a lecture by a

01:14:29.340 --> 01:14:32.640
sicilian Italian

01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:34.820
uh uh

01:14:34.820 --> 01:14:37.820
psychologist from the University of

01:14:37.820 --> 01:14:43.020
Sienna and he talked about the Enneagram

01:14:43.020 --> 01:14:45.480
and he was a student of gurjeff and he

01:14:45.480 --> 01:14:47.880
said that gurjeff went to Latin America

01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:51.060
and worked with the origin origination

01:14:51.060 --> 01:14:53.760
of the Enneagram was this complex

01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:57.960
whether you were approval or power and

01:14:57.960 --> 01:15:00.060
then the whole thing you know me the

01:15:00.060 --> 01:15:03.420
whole thing was just like Ah that's what

01:15:03.420 --> 01:15:04.620
I'm seeing

01:15:04.620 --> 01:15:09.179
and in in these patterns so I had the

01:15:09.179 --> 01:15:10.800
first two were easy I couldn't

01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:12.600
understand

01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:15.840
yeah it didn't make sense

01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:18.179
I just want to say that there's a

01:15:18.179 --> 01:15:19.920
problem I have in Wii spaces because I

01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:23.540
am conceptual but I feel everything yes

01:15:23.540 --> 01:15:26.880
this is this is something that you know

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:28.860
you guys just get the the short we're

01:15:28.860 --> 01:15:31.080
not doing workshops but that's what I

01:15:31.080 --> 01:15:34.380
have to say a lot of people think what

01:15:34.380 --> 01:15:36.060
comes out of their mouth is conceptual

01:15:36.060 --> 01:15:39.300
means they don't have a lot of feeling

01:15:39.300 --> 01:15:43.440
this is not true I realized that so I

01:15:43.440 --> 01:15:45.600
realized that that was a false dichotomy

01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:49.739
it's just how do you represent the

01:15:49.739 --> 01:15:52.860
feeling and this sometimes was extremely

01:15:52.860 --> 01:15:55.800
insightful to women like they just

01:15:55.800 --> 01:15:58.199
thought thought that

01:15:58.199 --> 01:16:01.080
there was not a lot of interior life and

01:16:01.080 --> 01:16:02.820
every time someone would talk it would

01:16:02.820 --> 01:16:05.699
come out conceptual and I said well no

01:16:05.699 --> 01:16:08.159
they're just they're just how you

01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:11.219
represent narrative versus conceptual

01:16:11.219 --> 01:16:13.739
they're both this they're both the same

01:16:13.739 --> 01:16:15.120
move

01:16:15.120 --> 01:16:18.179
it's not like I mean some men don't have

01:16:18.179 --> 01:16:20.940
interiors and they're on the Spectrum or

01:16:20.940 --> 01:16:23.580
something so it's almost all all

01:16:23.580 --> 01:16:26.840
conceptual but in many cases that's not

01:16:26.840 --> 01:16:32.900
so so can help really dissolve this this

01:16:32.900 --> 01:16:35.280
myth of

01:16:35.280 --> 01:16:37.679
you know the consent I'm very conceptual

01:16:37.679 --> 01:16:41.040
and extremely and extremely

01:16:41.040 --> 01:16:41.840
um

01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:46.679
Rich interior awareness also so

01:16:46.679 --> 01:16:52.219
but it's it it presents itself in in

01:16:52.219 --> 01:16:55.080
justificatory space as a typology right

01:16:55.080 --> 01:16:58.260
so you would be justified by using these

01:16:58.260 --> 01:16:59.580
Concepts and this person would be

01:16:59.580 --> 01:17:01.440
justifying by telling stories and

01:17:01.440 --> 01:17:05.219
feelings and and stuff like that

01:17:05.219 --> 01:17:07.820
um yeah

01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:15.000
but it's the same move

01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:17.219
and once you realize oh it's the same

01:17:17.219 --> 01:17:20.460
move you can say should we move there or

01:17:20.460 --> 01:17:22.380
should we

01:17:22.380 --> 01:17:24.840
be should we move to justification

01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:26.760
Justice Victoria's space or should we

01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:29.760
stay in imagination or representation or

01:17:29.760 --> 01:17:32.460
you know

01:17:32.460 --> 01:17:34.500
yeah

01:17:34.500 --> 01:17:37.320
Bonnie can you just Define what you mean

01:17:37.320 --> 01:17:39.120
by justification

01:17:39.120 --> 01:17:41.900
okay so

01:17:41.900 --> 01:17:44.699
justification is

01:17:44.699 --> 01:17:47.159
if I have

01:17:47.159 --> 01:17:50.520
an idea about the world

01:17:50.520 --> 01:17:52.380
[Music]

01:17:52.380 --> 01:17:53.040
um

01:17:53.040 --> 01:17:57.300
then that idea is surrounded by the way

01:17:57.300 --> 01:17:59.540
I justify it

01:17:59.540 --> 01:18:04.860
so I might have an idea that

01:18:04.860 --> 01:18:05.840
um

01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:08.640
you know this notion of how is the world

01:18:08.640 --> 01:18:13.020
well the world is is at risk of it's a

01:18:13.020 --> 01:18:15.000
six Math Extinction well how do you

01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:17.280
justify that

01:18:17.280 --> 01:18:19.980
and then I can go on and on it's inside

01:18:19.980 --> 01:18:23.640
of justification system and so or like

01:18:23.640 --> 01:18:26.520
if you take any kind of uh issue like

01:18:26.520 --> 01:18:28.679
abortion where you can justify it by

01:18:28.679 --> 01:18:30.360
religion you can justify it by

01:18:30.360 --> 01:18:34.140
physiology you can justify it by

01:18:34.140 --> 01:18:36.140
um well it's legal or not legal

01:18:36.140 --> 01:18:39.360
everything that humans do we put inside

01:18:39.360 --> 01:18:42.060
of a justification system

01:18:42.060 --> 01:18:46.860
now the purpose of this exercise is let

01:18:46.860 --> 01:18:49.739
go of the justification be use your

01:18:49.739 --> 01:18:52.320
imagination to represent reality so you

01:18:52.320 --> 01:18:55.440
get a different perspective on it

01:18:55.440 --> 01:18:58.860
and then you have to justify

01:18:58.860 --> 01:19:03.540
so like if I say well as Donna haraway

01:19:03.540 --> 01:19:05.760
says we're not

01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:08.580
we're not built up

01:19:08.580 --> 01:19:11.100
from building blocks life is simple

01:19:11.100 --> 01:19:14.280
Reddit things are inside things and then

01:19:14.280 --> 01:19:16.140
she can write a book that justifies and

01:19:16.140 --> 01:19:19.080
shows how many things are actually

01:19:19.080 --> 01:19:21.179
living things inside of other living

01:19:21.179 --> 01:19:23.159
things and she's creating a whole new

01:19:23.159 --> 01:19:26.300
science called simple weases or

01:19:26.300 --> 01:19:28.380
auto-poises so

01:19:28.380 --> 01:19:31.920
so you get the insight and then you get

01:19:31.920 --> 01:19:33.300
a lot of insights and they can't be

01:19:33.300 --> 01:19:34.620
justified they're more like just

01:19:34.620 --> 01:19:37.380
imagination or fantasy but

01:19:37.380 --> 01:19:38.280
um

01:19:38.280 --> 01:19:40.620
but you can justify by science you can

01:19:40.620 --> 01:19:42.960
justify it by putting it in a narrative

01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:45.920
that's compelling you can justify it by

01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:48.600
persuading people

01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:51.719
um so there's all kinds of justification

01:19:51.719 --> 01:19:55.679
systems it's 99 of what people do in

01:19:55.679 --> 01:19:58.560
Modern Life is is involved in

01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:01.940
justification systems

01:20:04.400 --> 01:20:08.460
uh articulating would be

01:20:08.460 --> 01:20:10.440
um they're very close but I can

01:20:10.440 --> 01:20:13.199
articulate I can describe I can

01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:15.420
articulate

01:20:15.420 --> 01:20:17.420
um

01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:20.340
articulation is just

01:20:20.340 --> 01:20:23.280
um making explicit something

01:20:23.280 --> 01:20:25.920
um without creating a justification

01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:29.659
system around it

01:20:29.940 --> 01:20:32.340
um so we're writing this new theory of

01:20:32.340 --> 01:20:35.340
the body we're in reimagining things but

01:20:35.340 --> 01:20:37.080
then to write a book about it you have

01:20:37.080 --> 01:20:39.120
to justify it you have to justify a

01:20:39.120 --> 01:20:40.980
little animal science zoology

01:20:40.980 --> 01:20:42.500
anthropology

01:20:42.500 --> 01:20:46.140
and the more systems that justification

01:20:46.140 --> 01:20:48.420
systems you can bring into it the more

01:20:48.420 --> 01:20:52.080
powerful it will be in Social space

01:20:52.080 --> 01:20:55.260
so if your justification system is

01:20:55.260 --> 01:20:57.719
because I said so

01:20:57.719 --> 01:21:00.060
that's a justification system it works

01:21:00.060 --> 01:21:02.940
on little kids when you have power but

01:21:02.940 --> 01:21:03.840
um

01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:06.719
um yeah and and so

01:21:06.719 --> 01:21:08.880
um you know the justification systems

01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:11.400
have always changed through time so it's

01:21:11.400 --> 01:21:13.920
because the king said so right or

01:21:13.920 --> 01:21:15.659
because it's written in the contract

01:21:15.659 --> 01:21:17.159
versus

01:21:17.159 --> 01:21:18.960
um some of the justification systems we

01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:22.500
saw today no it's not equals it's not

01:21:22.500 --> 01:21:24.540
enough people belong can belong to that

01:21:24.540 --> 01:21:27.659
it's too exclusive so that's a

01:21:27.659 --> 01:21:29.580
justification system that can become

01:21:29.580 --> 01:21:31.800
public and Broad spread out of the

01:21:31.800 --> 01:21:34.679
typology of people feel

01:21:34.679 --> 01:21:36.600
that's their default justification

01:21:36.600 --> 01:21:39.020
system

01:21:40.080 --> 01:21:42.120
and then with the what you just

01:21:42.120 --> 01:21:44.159
presented with us like say if you wanted

01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:45.840
to switch three four like you want to

01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:48.719
move change how you're justifying your

01:21:48.719 --> 01:21:51.060
style and go more narrative like you

01:21:51.060 --> 01:21:53.760
could can move around like in how you're

01:21:53.760 --> 01:21:55.920
justifying based on kind of what you

01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:59.640
want the outcome to be correct yeah okay

01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:02.340
if all the concept and a narrative

01:22:02.340 --> 01:22:04.620
component to how you're justifying then

01:22:04.620 --> 01:22:07.440
it's more powerful

01:22:07.440 --> 01:22:09.120
um foreign

01:22:09.120 --> 01:22:12.000
but you know

01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:16.340
um yeah so that's what we mean by

01:22:16.340 --> 01:22:19.020
justification I can represent something

01:22:19.020 --> 01:22:21.179
in my imagination

01:22:21.179 --> 01:22:23.460
and I don't won't feel any need to

01:22:23.460 --> 01:22:26.420
justify it

01:22:28.739 --> 01:22:31.199
but then if like I said but people are

01:22:31.199 --> 01:22:32.340
like

01:22:32.340 --> 01:22:34.920
flash mobs people people are like flash

01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:36.780
mobs but they don't know it and then I

01:22:36.780 --> 01:22:38.699
talk about the unconscious and this and

01:22:38.699 --> 01:22:41.460
that and how emergence happens and and

01:22:41.460 --> 01:22:44.100
then I'm I'm entering a justification

01:22:44.100 --> 01:22:47.280
system to make that representation more

01:22:47.280 --> 01:22:51.440
powerful and more possible for people

01:22:58.260 --> 01:23:00.860
yes

01:23:01.159 --> 01:23:03.900
democracy is a big justification system

01:23:03.900 --> 01:23:07.699
it's not that powerful anymore

01:23:07.739 --> 01:23:11.480
this is now because we're a democracy

01:23:15.980 --> 01:23:19.020
so it and are you then saying that

01:23:19.020 --> 01:23:21.960
justification is

01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:24.960
Limited

01:23:26.060 --> 01:23:28.800
I would say without being able to

01:23:28.800 --> 01:23:33.860
justify it that the future

01:23:34.080 --> 01:23:37.739
the future does not involve so much

01:23:37.739 --> 01:23:41.300
emphasis on justification

01:23:42.540 --> 01:23:45.719
I would say the future involves more uh

01:23:45.719 --> 01:23:47.880
Collective imagination

01:23:47.880 --> 01:23:51.060
and more ability to be with difference

01:23:51.060 --> 01:23:54.719
so there's just like like when you go to

01:23:54.719 --> 01:23:56.940
a farmer's market or like one of these

01:23:56.940 --> 01:23:58.920
fairs in Latin America and there's just

01:23:58.920 --> 01:24:00.600
people are selling Trinkets and selling

01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:02.040
this and they're selling that and the

01:24:02.040 --> 01:24:03.540
food like

01:24:03.540 --> 01:24:06.659
it's just it's just it's more like

01:24:06.659 --> 01:24:08.580
nature like all these different

01:24:08.580 --> 01:24:10.380
creatures and there's some have two

01:24:10.380 --> 01:24:12.420
Sexes and some have one Sexes and some

01:24:12.420 --> 01:24:14.760
got long penises that fall a lot like

01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:17.219
nature doesn't have to justify all this

01:24:17.219 --> 01:24:19.860
stuff it's just it just is and I would

01:24:19.860 --> 01:24:22.980
say that that that

01:24:22.980 --> 01:24:25.920
um yeah the future

01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:27.960
um doesn't run so much future for people

01:24:27.960 --> 01:24:31.159
is doesn't doesn't run so much on these

01:24:31.159 --> 01:24:35.400
justification less Paul dronary yes Les

01:24:35.400 --> 01:24:36.860
Paul troonery

01:24:36.860 --> 01:24:40.560
yeah but that's just a guess

01:24:40.560 --> 01:24:42.659
um that's just a guess I think we've

01:24:42.659 --> 01:24:46.580
exhausted the justification system

01:24:48.719 --> 01:24:50.940
but you know that's where we are now

01:24:50.940 --> 01:24:53.280
it's not it's it's not

01:24:53.280 --> 01:24:55.380
it's not going any away all of a sudden

01:24:55.380 --> 01:24:57.719
anytime

01:24:57.719 --> 01:24:59.719
okay my friends thank you very much

01:24:59.719 --> 01:25:03.620
thank you thanks everyone



## Cohort 2

00:00:02.959 --> 00:00:05.700
okay so

00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:07.980
um I'm gonna try to give a little bit of

00:00:07.980 --> 00:00:11.639
an overview of what we've been up to

00:00:11.639 --> 00:00:13.380
um and

00:00:13.380 --> 00:00:14.040
um

00:00:14.040 --> 00:00:16.160
um

00:00:18.420 --> 00:00:21.779
just so that we can recollect it and we

00:00:21.779 --> 00:00:23.939
know where where we're coming from and

00:00:23.939 --> 00:00:26.340
where we're going but also

00:00:26.340 --> 00:00:27.359
um

00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:30.420
um to onboard some people some new

00:00:30.420 --> 00:00:32.099
people and

00:00:32.099 --> 00:00:35.820
um so this this module is called uh

00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:39.000
representational thinking narrative and

00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:41.460
the justification system

00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:42.840
and

00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:46.320
what I what what we've been doing is

00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:50.039
seeing that from our animal body our we

00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.800
have a percept we have perception and

00:00:52.800 --> 00:00:56.340
our perception is cross modal so it's

00:00:56.340 --> 00:00:59.520
synesthetic so when we look at something

00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.699
we're also using our ears to try to

00:01:02.699 --> 00:01:04.379
figure out you know when we see

00:01:04.379 --> 00:01:06.240
something we're not quite sure what it

00:01:06.240 --> 00:01:09.540
is we use our ears to figure out like

00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:13.200
what it's doing so the the sensory motor

00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.680
system the perceptual system

00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:18.260
um

00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:21.900
cooperates or integrates the sensory

00:01:21.900 --> 00:01:25.200
modalities into a whole

00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.680
and then we found out that humans have

00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:32.640
more synesthesia or cross-modal

00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.520
um uh you know our wires are crossed so

00:01:35.520 --> 00:01:37.680
we can say things like

00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:42.000
um G that blue is sharp right so how can

00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.820
a color blue be sharp like

00:01:44.820 --> 00:01:47.659
something to the touch right so we can

00:01:47.659 --> 00:01:52.200
combine perceptual terms and it makes

00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.860
sense for us so this is the beginning of

00:01:55.860 --> 00:01:59.280
these higher order uh thinking is that

00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.799
we can use

00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:04.380
terms that belong to one sensory

00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:08.099
modality and cross it with the term with

00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:09.780
something that belongs to another

00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:12.120
sensory modality so this is the

00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.720
foundation this is still in our kind of

00:02:15.720 --> 00:02:19.200
um the the cross modal perception is in

00:02:19.200 --> 00:02:21.420
still in our animal body but then with

00:02:21.420 --> 00:02:25.020
language we make we we do a lot more

00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:26.700
Crossings

00:02:26.700 --> 00:02:31.379
and then we go a little further and we

00:02:31.379 --> 00:02:36.480
use this Crossing kind of experience to

00:02:36.480 --> 00:02:40.319
create metaphors we can say you know

00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:46.260
this cloud is like cotton or I feel like

00:02:46.260 --> 00:02:49.500
I feel like mud

00:02:49.500 --> 00:02:53.640
um and most people can

00:02:53.640 --> 00:02:57.840
into it the meaning of these metaphors

00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.360
that cross something that's like

00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.220
something else okay so it's a little

00:03:02.220 --> 00:03:06.360
more advanced than just perceptual it's

00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.420
seeing what is it like to be one thing

00:03:09.420 --> 00:03:11.819
and then seeing that there's something

00:03:11.819 --> 00:03:14.879
that's like that in another and some of

00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.300
these threads that this is like that can

00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:21.180
get very subtle and very nuanced right

00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:23.940
so in some poetry

00:03:23.940 --> 00:03:27.959
um it takes it takes a lot of learning

00:03:27.959 --> 00:03:30.540
and discipline and learning and leaning

00:03:30.540 --> 00:03:32.220
into

00:03:32.220 --> 00:03:34.860
um some of the the metaphors that are

00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:37.680
going on in poetry

00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.500
so that's the next level this note this

00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:42.840
notion of saying that this is like that

00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:46.379
the bridge was like the wings on the

00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:49.260
Falcon right and if you insert that into

00:03:49.260 --> 00:03:51.420
the right piece of poetry that will make

00:03:51.420 --> 00:03:53.040
sense

00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:55.620
um so

00:03:55.620 --> 00:03:59.280
so we go and so then we brought that

00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.799
notion of cross modal perception

00:04:01.799 --> 00:04:04.200
synesthetic perception and cross-modal

00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:05.879
thinking and metaphor into the

00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.580
imagination because the imagination is

00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:14.220
what does this this Crossing and linking

00:04:14.220 --> 00:04:15.900
so now

00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:21.720
um we we've come to this uh section on

00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:24.479
um representational thinking narrative

00:04:24.479 --> 00:04:28.440
and the justification system so

00:04:28.440 --> 00:04:34.199
um what what we're going to see is that

00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:36.960
um what we do is we do this better for

00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:39.360
we do this cross modal

00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:40.680
um

00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.340
thinking and then we take them to

00:04:44.340 --> 00:04:46.860
represent something in the world okay so

00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:51.860
we take them as objects as as as

00:04:51.860 --> 00:04:54.840
objects that we can manipulate

00:04:54.840 --> 00:04:56.520
linguistically

00:04:56.520 --> 00:04:58.139
so

00:04:58.139 --> 00:05:00.479
um we get to representational thinking

00:05:00.479 --> 00:05:03.419
but what we're going to work on today is

00:05:03.419 --> 00:05:05.400
one of the biggest uses of

00:05:05.400 --> 00:05:07.680
representational thinking and that's the

00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.500
justification system

00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:17.400
so 90 of social uh conversation involves

00:05:17.400 --> 00:05:21.660
justification and so I want to make a

00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:23.539
distinction between

00:05:23.539 --> 00:05:26.460
justification as

00:05:26.460 --> 00:05:27.360
um what we're going to call

00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.780
justification and rationalization okay

00:05:29.780 --> 00:05:33.180
rationalization is when

00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:36.840
um you have a bogus idea and you're

00:05:36.840 --> 00:05:38.759
trying to rationalize it you know it's

00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.160
it's bogus okay so you just kind of try

00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.380
to convince someone by rationalizing it

00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:47.460
the justification system is much more

00:05:47.460 --> 00:05:48.720
um

00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:52.620
uh formal so for example if we are going

00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:56.160
to justify something we can appeal to

00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.360
the law is it legal we can appeal to

00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.280
Conventional Norms we can appeal to

00:06:02.280 --> 00:06:04.860
whether my family does that we can

00:06:04.860 --> 00:06:08.039
appeal to morality or religious so

00:06:08.039 --> 00:06:12.720
whenever we try to choose or decide or

00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.960
have an opinion or evaluate we use we

00:06:15.960 --> 00:06:19.380
employ a justification system in order

00:06:19.380 --> 00:06:22.740
to do that in a shared way and so

00:06:22.740 --> 00:06:27.080
Society runs on many many

00:06:27.139 --> 00:06:29.639
layers and threads and entangle

00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.400
entanglements of justification system so

00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:36.419
if you look at a complex legal case

00:06:36.419 --> 00:06:37.259
um

00:06:37.259 --> 00:06:38.780
there's

00:06:38.780 --> 00:06:42.360
like for example there's Ed Sheeran just

00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.419
had a case of copyright law for his

00:06:45.419 --> 00:06:48.300
music and you'll see start to see

00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:50.759
there's many different ways to slice The

00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:52.440
Narrative right like we're going to

00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:53.940
slice it this way we're going to slice

00:06:53.940 --> 00:06:55.319
it that way are we going to look at it

00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.240
this way well what does exactly

00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.120
copyright mean and so

00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:03.720
um you get this very very thick layers

00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:08.400
of justification that makes Society run

00:07:08.400 --> 00:07:09.960
and we're going to play a little bit

00:07:09.960 --> 00:07:11.539
with that

00:07:11.539 --> 00:07:15.120
in terms of just very small groups and

00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:17.940
how people one of the things that

00:07:17.940 --> 00:07:19.979
happens in small groups is that if

00:07:19.979 --> 00:07:22.620
you're working on let's say coming to a

00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:26.099
consensus what's implicitly happening in

00:07:26.099 --> 00:07:28.740
people is that they're justifying their

00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:31.500
opinion in different ways and so it's

00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:33.240
not just that you have different

00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:36.599
perspectives on the situation but people

00:07:36.599 --> 00:07:39.840
are appealing to different justification

00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:41.460
systems

00:07:41.460 --> 00:07:43.319
um as as they're thinking about about

00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.139
the problem so

00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:46.979
um

00:07:46.979 --> 00:07:48.599
so we're going to work primarily with

00:07:48.599 --> 00:07:51.599
the justification system

00:07:51.599 --> 00:07:54.599
um are there any questions on the on the

00:07:54.599 --> 00:07:56.280
other parts of the course content or

00:07:56.280 --> 00:07:59.759
should we just jump into this part

00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:01.800
if you

00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.819
yeah Liz

00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:07.860
hey Bonnie I was just recently listening

00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:08.460
to

00:08:08.460 --> 00:08:10.319
um a Tim Ferriss podcast with David

00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:14.699
Deutsch and he talks about in scientific

00:08:14.699 --> 00:08:16.099
um

00:08:16.099 --> 00:08:18.660
in scientific experiments you're working

00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:21.419
with explanation and you can have an

00:08:21.419 --> 00:08:24.300
explanation that is like full of holes

00:08:24.300 --> 00:08:26.819
or you can have an explanation that no

00:08:26.819 --> 00:08:29.759
matter how you move it around it still

00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.399
holds together and so I'm just curious

00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.599
how explanation and justification yeah

00:08:36.599 --> 00:08:39.240
is there it's a good question and and

00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.880
the more we can suss this out the more

00:08:41.880 --> 00:08:46.080
uh we can hone in on what we're doing so

00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.380
let's say you and I uh both have the

00:08:49.380 --> 00:08:52.680
same justification system and that's the

00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:56.459
um some kind of law on the books okay I

00:08:56.459 --> 00:08:59.580
might be able to hold an argument with

00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:01.620
that justification system much better

00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:03.839
than you for one you know for one thing

00:09:03.839 --> 00:09:07.019
so that's yeah that that argument or

00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:07.970
that explanation

00:09:07.970 --> 00:09:09.959
[Music]

00:09:09.959 --> 00:09:11.760
um I might be able to be much more

00:09:11.760 --> 00:09:14.339
rigorous about it but we're both talking

00:09:14.339 --> 00:09:17.399
about the law we're both trying to

00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:20.339
justify it relative to the law and so

00:09:20.339 --> 00:09:22.620
you explain it and then I say but no

00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:25.620
there was a precedent before that and

00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:27.740
that's really what the the

00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:31.320
this thing is about is this precedent so

00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.959
the so we're both appealing to the same

00:09:33.959 --> 00:09:37.920
justification system but let's say

00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:40.680
um we were talking about abortion and

00:09:40.680 --> 00:09:42.120
you were saying

00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:46.320
um but when abortion was illegal uh you

00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.480
and you were appealing to the law and I

00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.580
was appealing to religion abortion is

00:09:50.580 --> 00:09:53.700
not right and you would but you would be

00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:55.680
keep you could keep saying it's legal

00:09:55.680 --> 00:09:58.440
but then I would be stuck saying but no

00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:00.839
it's immoral and we could never really

00:10:00.839 --> 00:10:03.839
get together no matter even if we both

00:10:03.839 --> 00:10:06.180
were explaining and explaining and

00:10:06.180 --> 00:10:10.019
explaining much better were just not in

00:10:10.019 --> 00:10:14.160
the same justification system so

00:10:14.160 --> 00:10:17.519
um you know this is this is like Ukraine

00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.760
in in Russia they're not and I'm not

00:10:20.760 --> 00:10:22.920
talking about Putin I'm just talking

00:10:22.920 --> 00:10:24.600
about the average Russian and the

00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:27.120
average Ukrainian they're inside a

00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.760
different justification system is the

00:10:29.760 --> 00:10:32.580
war just Justified or not

00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:35.220
um and so

00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:39.600
um now one would hope that the correct

00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.380
justification system would lead to more

00:10:43.380 --> 00:10:47.760
more robust explanation and I think that

00:10:47.760 --> 00:10:51.839
is true often but not always

00:10:51.839 --> 00:10:52.860
um

00:10:52.860 --> 00:10:55.380
so you could have two people who are

00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:59.640
very good at explaining and arguing and

00:10:59.640 --> 00:11:02.279
rigorous rhetorics and debate but

00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:04.019
they're just sitting in inside two

00:11:04.019 --> 00:11:06.000
different justification systems think

00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.160
Jordan Peterson and some trans person

00:11:08.160 --> 00:11:11.579
who's interested in in pronouns they

00:11:11.579 --> 00:11:14.160
just they they can't they can't really

00:11:14.160 --> 00:11:15.959
talk to each other because they're

00:11:15.959 --> 00:11:18.360
inside their whole different completely

00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.420
different justification systems

00:11:21.420 --> 00:11:24.360
what happens then is this horrible thing

00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.519
is then you have to go meta on the

00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:29.820
justification system right if you notice

00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:32.459
that then you you say okay well how do

00:11:32.459 --> 00:11:33.959
we adjudicate what's the right

00:11:33.959 --> 00:11:37.560
justification system and and I mean I'm

00:11:37.560 --> 00:11:39.600
not I'm not advocating for any of this

00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:41.160
we're just

00:11:41.160 --> 00:11:43.800
um we're just exploring that in this in

00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:46.260
this module and

00:11:46.260 --> 00:11:48.120
um

00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:50.720
um uh

00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:55.019
you know the complexity of which is

00:11:55.019 --> 00:11:55.760
um

00:11:55.760 --> 00:12:00.660
sometimes uh leads to despair so what I

00:12:00.660 --> 00:12:04.860
would Advocate moving back down to some

00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:07.079
of these you know the justification

00:12:07.079 --> 00:12:10.500
systems for example rely on on metaphors

00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:14.820
and that was in the um that was in in

00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:17.519
the course content we talked about the

00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.820
sages uh the debate in the between the

00:12:20.820 --> 00:12:23.820
confucians and the taoists and they both

00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:26.100
used they were talking about sages and

00:12:26.100 --> 00:12:28.500
they both used metaphors and the

00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:30.480
confusions were saying that you know

00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:34.620
wisdom is like a well you know is like a

00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:37.140
really good irrigation system because it

00:12:37.140 --> 00:12:40.740
tames the flood waters and that's what

00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:43.019
wisdom is and the taoists would say no

00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:45.959
the wild flood waters and the wild

00:12:45.959 --> 00:12:49.200
energy is what wisdom is and that's a

00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.420
very simple example but it shows you

00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:53.820
that at the bottom of all justification

00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:57.180
systems are these metaphors and the

00:12:57.180 --> 00:12:59.459
metaphors come from cross-modal thinking

00:12:59.459 --> 00:13:02.360
and cross-modal thinking comes from

00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.680
synesthesia and synesthesia comes from

00:13:04.680 --> 00:13:07.800
our sensory motor body so all the

00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:10.680
justification systems if if you if you

00:13:10.680 --> 00:13:14.160
did uh your homework you would find that

00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:19.560
they rely on some foundational metaphors

00:13:19.560 --> 00:13:23.339
um that are cannot be justified by the

00:13:23.339 --> 00:13:26.420
justification system

00:13:27.060 --> 00:13:30.660
um and so that's I think the whole point

00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:34.680
why we're in this module now is to to

00:13:34.680 --> 00:13:36.000
um yeah

00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.940
so to um notice that

00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:44.220
the you know the other thing in terms of

00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.639
uh when we're justifying on a small

00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:52.079
scale like in a in a small team or small

00:13:52.079 --> 00:13:53.639
group

00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.579
we often justify from

00:13:56.579 --> 00:13:59.040
um what are called you know archetypes

00:13:59.040 --> 00:14:02.399
or personal complexes

00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:04.440
um which are

00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:05.120
um

00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.220
which which are also kind of metaphors

00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.079
you know like

00:14:10.079 --> 00:14:11.399
um

00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:12.440
um

00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:16.139
you might have you might be justifying

00:14:16.139 --> 00:14:19.019
and underneath the justification is a

00:14:19.019 --> 00:14:22.019
simple uh metaphor about family systems

00:14:22.019 --> 00:14:26.339
right so you might not know that

00:14:26.339 --> 00:14:28.200
um you might not know that you're

00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.899
feeling about the situation sorry the

00:14:30.899 --> 00:14:32.220
Dodge

00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:36.660
um is based on some rudimentary uh

00:14:36.660 --> 00:14:40.320
complex around mother father and child

00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.300
um but this all actually often happens

00:14:42.300 --> 00:14:46.380
in organizations people quite often have

00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:49.500
father complexes with their bosses or

00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:51.420
mother complexes if they have a female

00:14:51.420 --> 00:14:52.800
boss

00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:57.899
and if you work with people in in teams

00:14:57.899 --> 00:15:00.240
you can uncover the fact that what's

00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.339
really happening is they're justifying

00:15:02.339 --> 00:15:03.920
it based upon

00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:06.480
dissent that things should be that way

00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.540
because they're thinking of the

00:15:09.540 --> 00:15:11.940
relationships like a family relationship

00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:16.260
like a very you know very fundamental uh

00:15:16.260 --> 00:15:18.420
family system so you have Steve Marsh

00:15:18.420 --> 00:15:22.019
for example is a coach in in

00:15:22.019 --> 00:15:24.360
organizations and sometimes he has to

00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.399
use internal family systems because

00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.459
people are fundamentally looking at you

00:15:29.459 --> 00:15:32.220
know their grown-up relationships as

00:15:32.220 --> 00:15:35.519
mothers fathers and children

00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:36.779
um so

00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:39.600
that's another metaphor these are these

00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.779
are personal metaphors which are

00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:43.980
developed as you know psychological

00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:47.279
complexes that sometimes that we are

00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.440
actually justifying from

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:54.420
and that game we played last time is

00:15:54.420 --> 00:15:56.699
um based on trying to figure out what

00:15:56.699 --> 00:15:59.699
your your you know certain complexes are

00:15:59.699 --> 00:16:04.820
in your in your justification system

00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:06.600
so

00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.940
um yeah is that helpful like what a

00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:11.699
justification system is I mean you can

00:16:11.699 --> 00:16:13.920
you can you know

00:16:13.920 --> 00:16:16.079
some are more clearly justification

00:16:16.079 --> 00:16:18.779
systems than others but science is a

00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:21.779
justification system and Science is

00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:24.240
based upon powerful interaction

00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.519
metaphors so I wrote about that in my

00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.459
book that that that

00:16:29.459 --> 00:16:32.040
um you know and these interaction

00:16:32.040 --> 00:16:35.820
metaphors are based upon mental models

00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:39.240
like a lot of Environmental Science is

00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:44.699
based upon this phrase we are in nature

00:16:44.699 --> 00:16:46.079
and

00:16:46.079 --> 00:16:49.500
but are we in nature The Way candy is in

00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:52.680
a box right and so fundamental to the

00:16:52.680 --> 00:16:55.579
way we do a lot of Science is based upon

00:16:55.579 --> 00:17:00.660
these constructions that are

00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:01.380
um

00:17:01.380 --> 00:17:04.020
that had like a little secret

00:17:04.020 --> 00:17:07.679
image behind them it's a mental model we

00:17:07.679 --> 00:17:09.839
can't think without having some kind of

00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:13.260
frame to think in and so

00:17:13.260 --> 00:17:17.280
um you have people like Donna haraway

00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:22.260
writing about simple Oasis or autotelic

00:17:22.260 --> 00:17:24.660
um relationships everybody's trying to

00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:26.600
come up with a different

00:17:26.600 --> 00:17:30.240
mental model or metaphor for how we are

00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.280
in relationship to Nature so we can do

00:17:32.280 --> 00:17:34.740
different kinds of science so we can't

00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:38.400
can stop destroying the environment so

00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.700
it's it's quite

00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:44.760
um Illuminating to understand

00:17:44.760 --> 00:17:47.460
that

00:17:47.460 --> 00:17:49.620
all this complexity in terms of the

00:17:49.620 --> 00:17:52.799
justification system can be traced down

00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.419
to fundamental units of of The Human

00:17:57.419 --> 00:18:01.380
Condition and that can be traced down to

00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:04.559
its roots in the sensory motor animal

00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.260
nature and that can be traced down to

00:18:07.260 --> 00:18:10.580
the roots of you know what you know

00:18:10.580 --> 00:18:14.160
nature becoming animal

00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.640
um so

00:18:16.919 --> 00:18:19.740
um yeah so this is a strange module

00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:21.660
because it's quite complex and we don't

00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.600
get to see how it tags into the you know

00:18:24.600 --> 00:18:26.160
into these

00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.080
um other modules

00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:31.980
um but but just keep keep that in mind

00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:35.039
um how the complexity arises from things

00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.620
that are are much more fundamental

00:18:37.620 --> 00:18:42.380
and part of the part of the work in

00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:46.140
disentangling some of these arguments is

00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:49.799
in tracing

00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:52.320
um tracing back look are we using the

00:18:52.320 --> 00:18:54.660
same justification system what is the

00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:56.880
justification system based on what are

00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.020
the primary metaphors and what is what

00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:03.120
is a useful metaphor so at the end of

00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:04.980
the day there's no right or wrong

00:19:04.980 --> 00:19:08.100
metaphor it's just what is a useful

00:19:08.100 --> 00:19:12.500
metaphor for the inquiry you want to

00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:16.380
take on so if we imagined the early

00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:19.260
sages or the early uh taoists and

00:19:19.260 --> 00:19:21.600
confusions which one is the right

00:19:21.600 --> 00:19:22.919
metaphor

00:19:22.919 --> 00:19:25.980
and that you can't you can't

00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:28.980
you can't adjudicate it you have to ask

00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:31.500
what is what is useful for this context

00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:33.960
what are you trying you know what is at

00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:38.820
stake what are you trying to uh

00:19:38.820 --> 00:19:41.340
what are you trying to change and how

00:19:41.340 --> 00:19:43.320
are you going to do it and then this

00:19:43.320 --> 00:19:45.360
then comes to the last part of the

00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:47.580
course content then we start to use

00:19:47.580 --> 00:19:51.240
language as action protocols

00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:53.820
we know that we have to use metaphor we

00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:56.700
use a metaphor that creates action in

00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:01.080
the direction that we want to change and

00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:04.280
so we become extremely

00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:07.039
disembedded from

00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:10.620
uh The Language game having us we

00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:15.179
understand it as a powerful uh tool

00:20:15.179 --> 00:20:20.220
so what do I mean by that so instead of

00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:22.200
um instead of

00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.880
getting into a situation where I'm

00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.179
um debating whether or not let's say

00:20:30.179 --> 00:20:32.100
nuclear power is good for the

00:20:32.100 --> 00:20:34.200
environment or the green New Deal is

00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.840
good for the environment or instead of

00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:40.320
getting inside the debate and having to

00:20:40.320 --> 00:20:43.140
enter a justification system

00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:46.320
what I want to do is use language in

00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:47.700
such a way

00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:52.620
that people see there's a possibility a

00:20:52.620 --> 00:20:56.039
a new mode of thinking about climate

00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.360
let's say or new mode of thinking about

00:21:00.360 --> 00:21:06.320
um the body in nature and and so

00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.120
it's kind of like

00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:12.780
it's an orthogonal move it's it's like

00:21:12.780 --> 00:21:14.820
someone saying I mean you see me do it

00:21:14.820 --> 00:21:16.740
all the time and it's like someone

00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:19.380
saying

00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.440
um

00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:29.880
you know you have you have an argument

00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.700
about

00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:34.740
um let's go back to abortion and it can

00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:36.539
go back and forth but then what you want

00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.240
to say is like you know what is at stake

00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:43.260
here like instead of searching and

00:21:43.260 --> 00:21:45.440
surfing in this ideological

00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.179
justification system you come back down

00:21:48.179 --> 00:21:51.059
to like what is that stake for you like

00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:53.640
and what is at stake for you and

00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:57.179
understand that that then you start to

00:21:57.179 --> 00:22:00.080
see that the argument for an individual

00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:03.360
is positioned inside

00:22:03.360 --> 00:22:04.820
a

00:22:04.820 --> 00:22:08.700
metaphor of reality or what is reality

00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:10.860
so

00:22:10.860 --> 00:22:12.419
um

00:22:12.419 --> 00:22:15.419
yeah so that's part of part of the work

00:22:15.419 --> 00:22:18.419
if if you're in a team or you're in some

00:22:18.419 --> 00:22:22.919
kind of difficult frazzled uh

00:22:22.919 --> 00:22:26.419
group debate

00:22:26.580 --> 00:22:29.600
Yeah Anna

00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.600
hi everyone hi Bonnie that makes a lot

00:22:33.600 --> 00:22:35.039
of sense and I've got a couple of

00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.320
questions that arising around

00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:38.700
etymology

00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:41.580
and let's say for the felt sense feeling

00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:44.340
of green and if I'm taking it to Dutch

00:22:44.340 --> 00:22:47.520
it's whom if I'm taking it to German

00:22:47.520 --> 00:22:50.400
it's groon so it's the G and the N at

00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.080
the end that they're the same so it's a

00:22:52.080 --> 00:22:54.419
felt sense that's similar but if I'm

00:22:54.419 --> 00:22:56.700
taking it to French or Spanish it's

00:22:56.700 --> 00:23:01.500
there or vert or Verte if you go to the

00:23:01.500 --> 00:23:03.659
I'm very curious about that because it's

00:23:03.659 --> 00:23:05.460
got a different felt sense to the

00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:06.840
different languages

00:23:06.840 --> 00:23:09.299
and there's also like when you say about

00:23:09.299 --> 00:23:11.520
talk about action protocols I'm thinking

00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:13.080
of what Ian McGill Chris talked about

00:23:13.080 --> 00:23:15.480
the difference between input thinking

00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:17.820
and upward thinking or being in the

00:23:17.820 --> 00:23:20.340
input or being in the output and it

00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:23.159
feels really similar that space I don't

00:23:23.159 --> 00:23:25.260
know if it makes sense that inquiry but

00:23:25.260 --> 00:23:27.120
yeah yeah I've got a lot of energy with

00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:29.520
that so the first thing with language

00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:31.860
yeah so there's this term scrock

00:23:31.860 --> 00:23:34.919
Garfield which means language feeling

00:23:34.919 --> 00:23:37.799
and and you know I don't know a lot of

00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.020
languages and

00:23:40.020 --> 00:23:42.360
um but I know a lot of people who are

00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:44.760
fluent in two or three languages and

00:23:44.760 --> 00:23:47.520
they it's fascinating to hear them say

00:23:47.520 --> 00:23:50.700
like I'm a different person like the way

00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.640
I perceive and sense the world and my

00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.640
gestures become different uh this is not

00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.799
true for people who translate in their

00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:00.840
head like they think in English and then

00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:02.940
they say in French but people are truly

00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:05.280
bilingual

00:24:05.280 --> 00:24:08.039
um and this is cross this is cross modal

00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.400
synesthesia like the gestures and the

00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.820
and the tightness of your teeth and

00:24:14.820 --> 00:24:17.280
um now there is quite a lot of

00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:22.020
um uh work you can see where people

00:24:22.020 --> 00:24:22.640
um

00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.100
like a word that relates to to something

00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:30.179
that's sharp would have a sharp piece to

00:24:30.179 --> 00:24:34.080
it or teeth or biting like uh

00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:38.220
um but this doesn't hold through all you

00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:40.559
know it's it's really loose work like

00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.559
you said that the uh

00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.500
um the word for green doesn't have the

00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:49.500
same feeling in your mouth

00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:51.840
um or the sound

00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:53.580
um as it does in all the different

00:24:53.580 --> 00:24:55.500
languages there's cool things on the

00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.679
internet like uh there's words for a

00:24:58.679 --> 00:25:00.059
butterfly and they're all really

00:25:00.059 --> 00:25:02.220
beautiful like nautiposa and then

00:25:02.220 --> 00:25:04.020
there's this like German word that's

00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:07.860
like really awful uh so

00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:11.159
um but yeah you can't discount

00:25:11.159 --> 00:25:13.200
um uh

00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.299
yeah you know and then there's a chicken

00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:18.480
and egg problem is it are the words

00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:20.159
different because they relate to the

00:25:20.159 --> 00:25:22.620
different or vice versa and these are

00:25:22.620 --> 00:25:25.140
impossible to to figure out but yeah I

00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:27.240
think that

00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:28.740
um

00:25:28.740 --> 00:25:32.220
um there's a there's a lot to that uh

00:25:32.220 --> 00:25:35.400
the the what the musculature and the

00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.039
gesture that is associated with the

00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:39.720
language

00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:42.539
um changes the state of the person which

00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:45.960
changes their sense of not only the

00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.919
content of what you're talking about but

00:25:49.919 --> 00:25:53.779
how they experience the world

00:25:56.340 --> 00:25:58.020
oh and the second question the second

00:25:58.020 --> 00:26:00.419
question was Ian mcgilchrist yeah I

00:26:00.419 --> 00:26:02.220
don't know that part that he said that

00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:05.760
but it is like using language so you're

00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:09.000
in a situation instead of talking about

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.000
how you would like the situation to move

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:16.020
you tried to use language such that it

00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:18.720
moves in that direction actually in the

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.400
Gilchrist does this

00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:22.320
you'll get when people start getting

00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:25.799
extremely abstract and and left brain

00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:28.140
you'll go slow and then the next thing

00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:30.900
out of his mouth is already more right

00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:33.659
brain instead of trying to attack the

00:26:33.659 --> 00:26:36.779
left brain argument with left brain

00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:39.720
thinking he does this thing

00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:42.360
and he goes which is not it doesn't

00:26:42.360 --> 00:26:45.299
really answer the question he he goes

00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:48.240
it's almost parenthetical and so this is

00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.760
how you use action languages and action

00:26:50.760 --> 00:26:55.440
protocol if you if you wish people would

00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.600
speak more from their lived experience

00:26:57.600 --> 00:26:59.940
you don't think I wish you'd all speak

00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:04.380
more from your lips you just start there

00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:06.960
um you take language you make the action

00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.659
with your language

00:27:09.659 --> 00:27:13.559
um and you and does and and then if that

00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:15.360
doesn't work but it changes the

00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:17.100
situation then what is the action

00:27:17.100 --> 00:27:19.020
protocol that I'm going to take next

00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:21.659
you'd start to use and this is the

00:27:21.659 --> 00:27:24.779
original use of language right is to

00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.000
point to something right instead of

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:29.279
having to point to a book I can say oh

00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.200
but can you get me that book

00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:35.159
or point out my feeling and so this is

00:27:35.159 --> 00:27:37.200
what we're trying to do instead of enter

00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.440
an argument a prop of propositional

00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:45.659
knowing we're trying to use language to

00:27:45.659 --> 00:27:47.700
steer

00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:50.039
um the realities to be more like this

00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.080
and less like that these little these

00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:53.520
little moves

00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:55.320
and

00:27:55.320 --> 00:27:56.100
um

00:27:56.100 --> 00:27:57.240
yeah

00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.059
so that would be the notion of using

00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:03.360
languages of action protocol

00:28:03.360 --> 00:28:05.940
it avoids The Meta move

00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:08.460
because once you start saying well you

00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:09.960
know let's look at our justification

00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.120
system and then you get like it gets

00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:17.039
very complex versus if you try to

00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:17.700
um

00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.779
if you try to move

00:28:20.779 --> 00:28:25.380
the context through the way your your

00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:27.960
what you're adding to in terms of the

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:30.240
the conversation

00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.159
it's not really like a conversation

00:28:32.159 --> 00:28:36.179
anymore it's like uh

00:28:36.179 --> 00:28:40.159
um it's like seeding

00:28:40.159 --> 00:28:44.760
seeding this the seeding The Experience

00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:48.480
such that it moves

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.220
off in a different direction

00:28:52.620 --> 00:28:53.940
um

00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:56.580
yeah

00:28:56.580 --> 00:28:58.919
so is that what you're saying is there

00:28:58.919 --> 00:29:01.440
the focus on the relationship or inner

00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.140
beingness of things then is that I'm not

00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:05.700
saying that that is the outcome of this

00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:06.539
but

00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:09.480
the input is focused on the inter being

00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:11.460
or the relationship instead of the

00:29:11.460 --> 00:29:13.380
output or the outcome

00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:15.539
is that where you move with the language

00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:18.480
as well that you focused intentionally

00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.820
on being in a relationship

00:29:20.820 --> 00:29:22.860
while staying Sovereign because you're

00:29:22.860 --> 00:29:25.679
you're but I don't know no no no so it's

00:29:25.679 --> 00:29:27.200
not okay

00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.779
I mean to do this you have to be

00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:33.539
situated in relationship or else you

00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:35.460
won't know what's going on you know you

00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:38.240
won't have a sense of it but

00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.940
that becomes that becomes implicit and

00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.440
in the background

00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.399
and now you're you're saying okay it's a

00:29:47.399 --> 00:29:50.399
given we're we're in we're in Collective

00:29:50.399 --> 00:29:54.659
space bodies and spaces already uh

00:29:54.659 --> 00:29:55.620
um

00:29:55.620 --> 00:29:59.520
um you know trans transpersonal what

00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:02.700
you're trying to do is actually

00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:03.779
um

00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:06.360
um be more of a Leading Edge of the

00:30:06.360 --> 00:30:10.260
group instead of a uh equal participant

00:30:10.260 --> 00:30:13.320
you're actually saying I want to move in

00:30:13.320 --> 00:30:15.600
this direction but if you say in a

00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:17.760
certain way it gets captured by the

00:30:17.760 --> 00:30:20.820
group process and it'll just get sucked

00:30:20.820 --> 00:30:24.320
into the group process again versus

00:30:24.320 --> 00:30:27.360
all of a sudden what you're saying in

00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:29.279
the move you're making is fresh and new

00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:31.200
and people are like

00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.740
oh that's interesting you know and so I

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:35.940
don't know what

00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:39.059
the gilchrist's terms input and output

00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:41.399
are I mean what I'm talking about is

00:30:41.399 --> 00:30:43.620
most more like I'm trying I'm trying to

00:30:43.620 --> 00:30:46.140
look for an output it's an action

00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:48.600
protocol but it's not an instruction

00:30:48.600 --> 00:30:50.399
because

00:30:50.399 --> 00:30:54.059
if you if you try to instruct then

00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:56.220
you've kind of you're not in a

00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:58.919
relationship anymore right

00:30:58.919 --> 00:31:00.659
um

00:31:00.659 --> 00:31:02.100
um

00:31:02.100 --> 00:31:05.100
I'll give you a funny example

00:31:05.100 --> 00:31:08.059
um one time I was having a workshop here

00:31:08.059 --> 00:31:11.480
and we were all I think we're sitting in

00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:15.080
down there in the in the paddock area

00:31:15.080 --> 00:31:20.039
and we were contemplating

00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:22.620
um heavy stuff like people contemplate

00:31:22.620 --> 00:31:24.299
heavy stuff sometimes when they get

00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:27.539
together and the mood was very

00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:29.779
um kind of

00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:32.700
despairing and

00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:35.039
um thick

00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.100
and at the time I was taking care I I

00:31:38.100 --> 00:31:41.820
was raising a little uh deer

00:31:41.820 --> 00:31:45.840
and he came in from the forest and it

00:31:45.840 --> 00:31:47.340
was you know

00:31:47.340 --> 00:31:49.740
two months old or three months old and

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:51.440
he just walked in and everybody

00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.700
automatically their heart opened up and

00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:55.260
it was like ah

00:31:55.260 --> 00:31:58.679
and we're like what just happened like

00:31:58.679 --> 00:31:59.779
like

00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:03.480
the whole Space transforms because a

00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:06.179
deer walked in and he didn't have to say

00:32:06.179 --> 00:32:09.539
anything and it wasn't like Yaki and you

00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:12.299
know people's feelings were it was all

00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:17.120
that stuff was gone and it's just gone

00:32:17.399 --> 00:32:20.520
and so that would be like one of those

00:32:20.520 --> 00:32:22.860
moves you know like now of course for

00:32:22.860 --> 00:32:25.620
the deer it's authentic so it's easy for

00:32:25.620 --> 00:32:28.200
people to it happens but how can how can

00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:30.899
you know you have to it's a it's a skill

00:32:30.899 --> 00:32:33.720
to try to

00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.960
um you know if it's if it's too

00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.659
um propositional or if you're running a

00:32:39.659 --> 00:32:41.940
strategy it won't work because you're in

00:32:41.940 --> 00:32:44.279
circle and people will smell that and

00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:46.919
call right I mean this is this

00:32:46.919 --> 00:32:49.700
is the reason why we're we cultivate

00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.860
presence first because

00:32:52.860 --> 00:32:55.080
um it makes it more difficult you know

00:32:55.080 --> 00:32:57.179
for people to do that so it can't be a

00:32:57.179 --> 00:32:59.159
strategy

00:32:59.159 --> 00:33:01.559
it has to be

00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.559
um

00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:06.779
yeah it has to come come from

00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:11.940
uh a certain idea and and

00:33:11.940 --> 00:33:12.779
um

00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:16.080
what we're gonna practice is

00:33:16.080 --> 00:33:19.500
um waiting for

00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:23.880
a image or a representation of the

00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:29.460
situation to arise that comes to you

00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:33.600
like de novo it isn't

00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:36.179
a paying off of what the other person

00:33:36.179 --> 00:33:38.760
said or it isn't carrying the thought

00:33:38.760 --> 00:33:43.440
forward it's something that wants to

00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.820
um

00:33:44.820 --> 00:33:48.779
to seed a a a a different attractor

00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:51.360
Basin let's say

00:33:51.360 --> 00:33:53.820
um so we had one

00:33:53.820 --> 00:33:57.179
um on Saturday where one of the groups

00:33:57.179 --> 00:34:00.299
was during this practice which we're

00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:02.539
going to go into in this in a little bit

00:34:02.539 --> 00:34:05.580
and like one of the things that came out

00:34:05.580 --> 00:34:09.419
was someone said a flash mob

00:34:09.419 --> 00:34:11.700
but she didn't really know why she said

00:34:11.700 --> 00:34:13.379
a flash mom

00:34:13.379 --> 00:34:18.960
and and immediately I had like literally

00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:21.599
I had this like movie running in front

00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.300
of my face of a flash mob where people

00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:27.419
didn't know they were in the flash mob

00:34:27.419 --> 00:34:29.520
like what if you walked around Society

00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:33.659
in like 10 of society were actually in a

00:34:33.659 --> 00:34:36.720
flash mob but they didn't know it yet

00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:39.179
you know how flash mobs start and people

00:34:39.179 --> 00:34:43.020
they pretend and so like and that this

00:34:43.020 --> 00:34:45.720
became like an interesting image for

00:34:45.720 --> 00:34:49.740
like the new the new future like maybe

00:34:49.740 --> 00:34:52.139
we are the flash mob but we don't know

00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:55.619
it yet right so like that's what we're

00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:59.339
looking for we're looking for

00:34:59.339 --> 00:35:03.000
something that seems like it comes out

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:04.980
of nowhere

00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.940
um and if you're the person that says it

00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.280
you try to just so it's we're just

00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.619
trying to create this landscape of these

00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:18.300
things so I'll put I've got a flash mob

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:22.440
um and you you try not to develop it

00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:24.359
yourself because then you'll start

00:35:24.359 --> 00:35:27.119
justifying why you have a flash mob and

00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.160
you'll and you're just gonna put it

00:35:29.160 --> 00:35:32.359
there and then when it ignites like

00:35:32.359 --> 00:35:34.800
spontaneously ignites

00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.140
I don't know why I'm watching this movie

00:35:37.140 --> 00:35:39.960
I'm watching a movie she started but

00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.180
it's no longer her movie it's my movie

00:35:42.180 --> 00:35:45.060
then I want to talk about I want to put

00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:47.160
that in the space but I don't want to

00:35:47.160 --> 00:35:51.119
justify why that's in this face at first

00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:55.619
I don't want to elaborate too much

00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:58.619
um and so this is collective Insight

00:35:58.619 --> 00:36:00.300
practice

00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:01.859
um and

00:36:01.859 --> 00:36:04.980
um and and that's that's what we're

00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:06.839
looking for

00:36:06.839 --> 00:36:07.859
um

00:36:07.859 --> 00:36:10.260
someone said it's more like Collective

00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:12.599
art making and it is it's kind of like

00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:16.920
you know when kids someone splotches red

00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.260
over here and someone goes well and they

00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:21.839
splotch green over there

00:36:21.839 --> 00:36:23.820
um and

00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:26.640
um yeah and

00:36:26.640 --> 00:36:29.579
and this is so this is what we're going

00:36:29.579 --> 00:36:33.060
to try to uh spend a little time today

00:36:33.060 --> 00:36:35.480
doing

00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:46.500
Bonnie I just want to say thank you for

00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:50.160
going through speech as uh action

00:36:50.160 --> 00:36:52.859
protocol that was a question I had

00:36:52.859 --> 00:36:54.540
percolating

00:36:54.540 --> 00:36:57.540
and I want to say that it's very very

00:36:57.540 --> 00:36:58.859
exciting

00:36:58.859 --> 00:37:01.619
to look to see to develop that kind of

00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:02.579
skill

00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:05.880
yeah I think like we do

00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.839
all of us do it sometimes like

00:37:09.839 --> 00:37:10.859
um

00:37:10.859 --> 00:37:12.599
um

00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.119
because there's some when we know like

00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.859
it's not gonna work that's not gonna

00:37:16.859 --> 00:37:19.500
work this is gonna and and so

00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:22.200
um but it's it's just naming it and

00:37:22.200 --> 00:37:26.339
trying to hone it as as a skill

00:37:26.339 --> 00:37:27.420
um

00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:29.099
is

00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:31.020
I mean I

00:37:31.020 --> 00:37:33.119
I don't even have a lot of examples of

00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.220
it for some reason I can't think of it I

00:37:35.220 --> 00:37:36.900
know people have said it what is that

00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:38.880
thing you do you know like what you know

00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:42.060
that thing you do and it it is a lot of

00:37:42.060 --> 00:37:43.740
the times

00:37:43.740 --> 00:37:47.000
um trying to

00:37:47.040 --> 00:37:49.440
move you know what it's like it's like

00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.560
there's this great film where this woman

00:37:52.560 --> 00:37:54.720
they're in France and she takes people

00:37:54.720 --> 00:37:58.800
out to this Sand Dune this wet sand dune

00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.660
by the beach and it's it's

00:38:00.660 --> 00:38:04.200
um uh what's it called uh

00:38:04.200 --> 00:38:06.660
when you sink into the mud and you die

00:38:06.660 --> 00:38:08.599
what's what's that kind of sand called

00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:13.400
quick quicksand and and she has people

00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:15.839
Pat and Pat and pat on the thing until

00:38:15.839 --> 00:38:18.420
the quick stand starts to draw people in

00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:20.280
and she walks in the middle and it takes

00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.980
her down because the whole point is she

00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:24.720
teaches them how to get out of quicksand

00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:27.240
and this is something like that you're

00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:29.339
in process and the thing feels like

00:38:29.339 --> 00:38:31.560
quicksand like whatever you said because

00:38:31.560 --> 00:38:33.420
she says you know if you move a certain

00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:35.520
way you just get further in

00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:37.740
but then there's a technique that you

00:38:37.740 --> 00:38:40.200
get yourself out and you get in a

00:38:40.200 --> 00:38:43.339
different direction and this is like a a

00:38:43.339 --> 00:38:46.800
metaphor but what I'm trying to say like

00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:48.660
you you'll get and you know that

00:38:48.660 --> 00:38:50.579
anything that you say out of your mouth

00:38:50.579 --> 00:38:53.339
will be like being in quicksand is just

00:38:53.339 --> 00:38:55.680
gonna draw you in further

00:38:55.680 --> 00:39:00.300
and so you're trying to just be with the

00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:03.380
feeling and you're trying to open your

00:39:03.380 --> 00:39:06.420
mind's eye and say show me something

00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:09.660
like show me something else to work with

00:39:09.660 --> 00:39:11.760
and

00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.900
um and and and that's the process of you

00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:18.960
know coming up with it with an action

00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:22.200
protocol to move to move the

00:39:22.200 --> 00:39:24.240
conversation or an Insight sometimes

00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:27.900
when you say show me You You Realize duh

00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:29.640
like

00:39:29.640 --> 00:39:31.680
um like I was having this conversation

00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:33.839
with Greg arnica said it was going back

00:39:33.839 --> 00:39:36.000
and forth and yeah he and then I was

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.359
like duh he's talking as a clinician and

00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:42.000
I'm talking as a philosopher and and all

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:43.980
of a sudden I said that and it was like

00:39:43.980 --> 00:39:45.480
oh okay

00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:48.420
that's and then we could carry on the

00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:50.760
conversation because we couldn't

00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.220
understand what was

00:39:53.220 --> 00:39:56.040
what was the problem in the in the

00:39:56.040 --> 00:39:58.920
conversation so

00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.260
um Bonnie I don't know if you want to

00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:03.180
spend time with me on this but I think

00:40:03.180 --> 00:40:05.220
there's a very

00:40:05.220 --> 00:40:08.160
subtle distinction

00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:10.800
when I started the pop-up school we

00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:14.160
talked about comments that expand the

00:40:14.160 --> 00:40:15.720
conversation

00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:18.480
well you're talking about here

00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:21.380
is

00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:27.079
a dialogue where you can actually

00:40:28.040 --> 00:40:31.920
inhabit the movement through your

00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.820
language and shift the space

00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:39.839
yeah so so Collective

00:40:39.839 --> 00:40:42.839
Insight practice

00:40:42.839 --> 00:40:45.720
the use the the

00:40:45.720 --> 00:40:48.780
the agreement you have is you come and

00:40:48.780 --> 00:40:52.980
you say nothing we know individually or

00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:56.160
collectively is right

00:40:56.160 --> 00:40:59.640
none of it's it's all useless

00:40:59.640 --> 00:41:01.859
we want to walk out with something

00:41:01.859 --> 00:41:04.680
nobody would have ever thought of before

00:41:04.680 --> 00:41:08.880
by themselves or in a group that's the

00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.099
whole point of collective Insight you

00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:14.220
just go in and you like everything that

00:41:14.220 --> 00:41:15.720
I have

00:41:15.720 --> 00:41:18.180
is not interesting

00:41:18.180 --> 00:41:21.000
not interesting

00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.040
everything I come in with is not

00:41:23.040 --> 00:41:24.359
interesting

00:41:24.359 --> 00:41:26.940
because if it if it were the right thing

00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:29.280
it would we would have fixed it would

00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.720
have been all done and said already

00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:39.000
so you want to expand it's not really an

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.480
inquiry it's it it's a what happens in

00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.119
Collective Insight practice is you you

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.060
still have bodies in space so you still

00:41:48.060 --> 00:41:52.260
have arousal and some of that arousal is

00:41:52.260 --> 00:41:55.619
too much ecstasy or arrows and some of

00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:58.800
it then it basically the arousal if you

00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.940
watch it doesn't stay one way or another

00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:04.440
there is a lot of it could be a lot of

00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:06.780
ecstasy and then all of a sudden you're

00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:08.760
like really pissed off about something

00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:10.579
and then all of a sudden

00:42:10.579 --> 00:42:13.500
you're dissociated and then all of a

00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:16.020
sudden and this doesn't have anything to

00:42:16.020 --> 00:42:17.579
do with anything

00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:20.520
just what the body does because you're

00:42:20.520 --> 00:42:22.320
asking it

00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.680
to transmute to something it's never

00:42:25.680 --> 00:42:29.520
thought of before and and so what you

00:42:29.520 --> 00:42:31.740
don't want to do if you're at the stage

00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:34.200
of doing Collective Insight practice is

00:42:34.200 --> 00:42:36.720
collapse that into saying well why am I

00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:38.880
mad now why am I falling in love now

00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:42.300
what there is no why the body's just

00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:43.800
like

00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:46.859
you know it's it's one time I was lost

00:42:46.859 --> 00:42:49.619
on the Sierra Nevadas on in a snowstorm

00:42:49.619 --> 00:42:51.599
at the top of a mountain and I didn't

00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:56.060
know how to get down and and

00:42:56.060 --> 00:42:58.380
I ended up

00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:01.619
what happened is I as I had a panic

00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:03.599
attack and I laid down on the snow and I

00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.480
flapped around like a like a flounder on

00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:07.680
on a boat

00:43:07.680 --> 00:43:10.560
there was no why it's just that there's

00:43:10.560 --> 00:43:13.680
so much energy in getting the mission

00:43:13.680 --> 00:43:17.099
done and so what you will notice in

00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:19.260
these high-powered Collective insights

00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:21.359
is people get confused because they know

00:43:21.359 --> 00:43:23.280
like now this feels like anger and then

00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.140
this feels like that because there's so

00:43:25.140 --> 00:43:27.359
much energy it's gonna it's gonna start

00:43:27.359 --> 00:43:30.660
tickling all these affect streams right

00:43:30.660 --> 00:43:32.819
if you get really good at it it's Just

00:43:32.819 --> 00:43:35.220
Energy it doesn't go into these app

00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:38.040
extremes and there is no why now if

00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:40.260
someone came in and hit you with a brick

00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:42.480
and you get pissed off there is a why

00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:44.400
but in general there's just people

00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.599
sitting around in we space so this

00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:53.700
tendency to collapse the energy of the

00:43:53.700 --> 00:43:56.540
body into a y

00:43:56.540 --> 00:44:00.060
collapses the ability to have an insight

00:44:00.060 --> 00:44:02.940
so inside practice is extremely hard and

00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:04.800
what I'm talking here is you know the

00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.260
create circle of creation it's extremely

00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:09.480
hard it's level you have to level up out

00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:10.400
of

00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:12.180
presencing

00:44:12.180 --> 00:44:15.420
so that's just what the body does you

00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:17.280
know if you think of a stream extreme

00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:19.140
athletes if you read the rise of

00:44:19.140 --> 00:44:22.020
Superman they get scared they gotta go

00:44:22.020 --> 00:44:24.839
through the fear and then they gotta go

00:44:24.839 --> 00:44:27.420
and go and go and they can't get through

00:44:27.420 --> 00:44:29.280
the fear and be dissociating because

00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:31.319
then they would kill themselves when

00:44:31.319 --> 00:44:33.599
they do jump off the cliff with their

00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:34.619
wingsuit

00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:36.660
and on the other side of the fear

00:44:36.660 --> 00:44:40.819
there's Clarity right and so

00:44:40.819 --> 00:44:45.119
this is this is what the body does to

00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.880
generate the energy of insight

00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:53.579
and if you were a very well uh

00:44:53.579 --> 00:44:56.460
um practiced at this it would feel like

00:44:56.460 --> 00:45:00.359
energy but we have but it tickles our

00:45:00.359 --> 00:45:03.359
affect streams because it doesn't know

00:45:03.359 --> 00:45:06.660
what to do with itself and so you will

00:45:06.660 --> 00:45:09.060
notice just like in meditation same

00:45:09.060 --> 00:45:11.099
thing you get angry then you're blissed

00:45:11.099 --> 00:45:12.900
out and then you're pissed off and then

00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:16.020
you hurt you go around and around and

00:45:16.020 --> 00:45:18.440
around It's Just Energy

00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:22.680
that has lost its ability to distract

00:45:22.680 --> 00:45:29.099
itself okay so there is so so this is a

00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:33.060
this is a juncture between

00:45:33.060 --> 00:45:36.839
presencing and insight practice now why

00:45:36.839 --> 00:45:38.880
do you do presencing because

00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.280
you have to learn to be able to deal

00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.060
with all that in the first place and the

00:45:45.060 --> 00:45:47.520
speaking of it

00:45:47.520 --> 00:45:49.940
and the sharing of it

00:45:49.940 --> 00:45:52.980
discharges the energy so you don't blow

00:45:52.980 --> 00:45:56.579
your brains out day one but once you

00:45:56.579 --> 00:45:58.740
have a certain amount of capacity then

00:45:58.740 --> 00:46:02.760
you have to resist that because that is

00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:06.200
the energy for insight

00:46:07.680 --> 00:46:09.240
so

00:46:09.240 --> 00:46:13.980
um and then it's not pure sometimes

00:46:14.460 --> 00:46:17.220
people are inside and then it turns into

00:46:17.220 --> 00:46:19.619
a little more conversation because the

00:46:19.619 --> 00:46:21.420
system has to

00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:24.240
take care of itself you know

00:46:24.240 --> 00:46:27.060
um but uh

00:46:27.060 --> 00:46:27.780
um

00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:31.680
but that's that's that's how and and

00:46:31.680 --> 00:46:34.440
um and then sometimes it gets into you

00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:36.720
know justification patterns and and

00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:38.880
stuff like that

00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.040
um and that's that's what happens when

00:46:41.040 --> 00:46:44.280
you ask yourself why am I mad and then

00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:46.200
you try then you go into like a whole

00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:49.020
justification scheme whether you've beat

00:46:49.020 --> 00:46:51.359
up on yourself or you beat up on the

00:46:51.359 --> 00:46:53.160
practice or you're beat up on the other

00:46:53.160 --> 00:46:54.900
person or you're beat up on the

00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:57.060
facilitator these are all just

00:46:57.060 --> 00:47:00.000
justification schemes

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.160
you don't need to justify why you feel

00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:05.220
this way your the energy is just it's

00:47:05.220 --> 00:47:07.740
just it's it's just

00:47:07.740 --> 00:47:10.920
um a little chaotic uh at this moment

00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:14.640
because you're you're not allowing the

00:47:14.640 --> 00:47:17.220
energy to discharge the way it normally

00:47:17.220 --> 00:47:20.160
does you're asking it you're asking it

00:47:20.160 --> 00:47:22.079
to be in service of something else and

00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:25.220
it's not used to that

00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:31.859
mommy can you make a distinction between

00:47:31.859 --> 00:47:35.280
justification and insight

00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:38.900
yeah so

00:47:39.240 --> 00:47:41.420
um

00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:44.400
okay I'll tell a story because if I go

00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:46.980
met on it gets so complex like one time

00:47:46.980 --> 00:47:49.680
I was doing uh Insight practice here

00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:52.140
with uh Jordan Hall was here and some

00:47:52.140 --> 00:47:54.140
other people

00:47:54.140 --> 00:47:58.380
and we were actually out of session and

00:47:58.380 --> 00:47:59.819
um and we don't we don't do it with the

00:47:59.819 --> 00:48:01.859
stick or anything but but we were

00:48:01.859 --> 00:48:04.560
sitting by the table and my friend Tom

00:48:04.560 --> 00:48:07.800
Murray was here too and we got into this

00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:10.560
discussion about

00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:12.200
um whether

00:48:12.200 --> 00:48:16.740
AI uh could be intelligent or sentient I

00:48:16.740 --> 00:48:18.720
think intelligent or sentient or

00:48:18.720 --> 00:48:20.400
something I can't remember what the word

00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.500
was because of the conversation around

00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:23.819
it now

00:48:23.819 --> 00:48:28.140
and I was a I was totally against it and

00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:32.040
I had this justification because I said

00:48:32.040 --> 00:48:35.160
um because humans have evolved and

00:48:35.160 --> 00:48:37.680
artificial intelligence and computers

00:48:37.680 --> 00:48:40.380
and computers are built

00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:42.300
and

00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:46.579
um and they were systematically just

00:48:46.579 --> 00:48:50.460
saying well no like but computers are

00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:52.859
built by humans who have evolved so this

00:48:52.859 --> 00:48:54.800
was the basic

00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:58.020
argument that discussion it was around

00:48:58.020 --> 00:49:01.920
this this question and then I had to get

00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:03.000
up and

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.480
um and and I remember Jordan was there

00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.640
and somebody his but his friend was here

00:49:08.640 --> 00:49:11.700
my friend Tom was here and Jordan asked

00:49:11.700 --> 00:49:13.319
me a question and then I would justify

00:49:13.319 --> 00:49:15.420
the evolutions and then he would ask and

00:49:15.420 --> 00:49:17.819
then I looked and I saw his friend with

00:49:17.819 --> 00:49:21.720
this big smile and I realized

00:49:21.720 --> 00:49:26.339
he was I was going to be uh checkmated

00:49:26.339 --> 00:49:29.520
at the next thing I said like and so I

00:49:29.520 --> 00:49:32.160
just said I'm gonna go over there and

00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:34.440
strengthen my argument so this is all

00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:36.839
justification and when I went in the

00:49:36.839 --> 00:49:39.540
other room Tom picked up the argument

00:49:39.540 --> 00:49:41.940
and I could hear him

00:49:41.940 --> 00:49:45.480
getting hopelessly lost

00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:47.599
so it was very good because it was like

00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:50.880
watching myself continuing the argument

00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:54.000
okay so this is all justification

00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.700
and then I had an Insight I had an

00:49:56.700 --> 00:49:59.099
Insight I finally understood something

00:49:59.099 --> 00:50:02.819
that Dogan that I read in Dogan and that

00:50:02.819 --> 00:50:05.400
is if you make the sameness you suffer

00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:07.079
the difference and if you make the

00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:09.720
difference you suffer the sameness

00:50:09.720 --> 00:50:13.319
it's just like I said oh my God that's

00:50:13.319 --> 00:50:16.079
what Dogan said and they're like what

00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.680
so like if I say machines are not like

00:50:19.680 --> 00:50:22.440
humans you I would suffer the fact that

00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.500
they're kind of human and if I make the

00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:28.260
decisions that you know machines are

00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:31.319
like humans not uh the vice versa right

00:50:31.319 --> 00:50:33.839
so that's an Insight because it didn't

00:50:33.839 --> 00:50:35.940
have anything to do what we were talking

00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:38.460
about and I hadn't read Dogan in years

00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:41.760
he has these illogics that go if a then

00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:44.400
not a then then that that was and I

00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.079
never understood it

00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:47.640
so then

00:50:47.640 --> 00:50:49.440
then nobody want to talk about it

00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:51.180
anymore because we realize that's just

00:50:51.180 --> 00:50:54.240
the Trap you're trapped inside something

00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:56.760
that can't be justified because if you

00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:58.740
take one side then you're gonna suffer

00:50:58.740 --> 00:51:00.240
the other side

00:51:00.240 --> 00:51:03.559
so it kind of

00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:07.079
um so that that was that's an example of

00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:09.119
the difference between trying to justify

00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:10.680
something

00:51:10.680 --> 00:51:12.599
um

00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:14.940
which was interesting don't get me wrong

00:51:14.940 --> 00:51:18.059
it wasn't like an angry conversation and

00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:23.160
having an insight about like what was

00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:25.319
of something else

00:51:25.319 --> 00:51:27.599
it seems like it comes out of the blue

00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.140
or something

00:51:59.640 --> 00:52:01.319
yeah but I'm curious what happened to

00:52:01.319 --> 00:52:04.559
the energy like when you have an insight

00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.079
the quality of the energy change

00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:11.220
yeah you feel very alive and grounded at

00:52:11.220 --> 00:52:12.839
the same time I mean you have a lot of

00:52:12.839 --> 00:52:16.880
energy but it doesn't feel like

00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:21.300
you know chaotic

00:52:27.540 --> 00:52:30.680
and you kind of get

00:52:32.160 --> 00:52:34.260
um like what I'm doing now I'm not

00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:36.300
really thinking and I'm not spaced out

00:52:36.300 --> 00:52:40.020
I'm just kind of looking

00:52:40.020 --> 00:52:44.220
where images come where where insights

00:52:44.220 --> 00:52:46.400
come

00:52:54.780 --> 00:52:57.180
yeah there's no waste in Insight that's

00:52:57.180 --> 00:52:59.220
a really good see that's probably an

00:52:59.220 --> 00:53:01.559
Insight did it just come to you

00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:04.040
like like

00:53:04.040 --> 00:53:07.740
so that's that's one of these that's a

00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:10.800
metaphor you can you automatically see

00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:13.380
that this is not something he said a

00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:15.960
million times or someone said a million

00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.420
times right it's a it's a

00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:24.000
it's an it's a

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:26.460
what does that mean there's no waste in

00:53:26.460 --> 00:53:28.319
Insight Right This is highly

00:53:28.319 --> 00:53:33.140
metaphorical but it is itself an insight

00:54:21.420 --> 00:54:24.720
foreign other questions we'll go into a

00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:27.300
little breakout group at the top of the

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:30.240
hour we have three minutes

00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:31.920
I want to share

00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:33.480
um

00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.119
I feel like this is bringing somewhere

00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:37.740
clarity

00:54:37.740 --> 00:54:40.619
around like a move that I subtly do is

00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:43.079
as like a playful

00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:45.300
um as the form of play

00:54:45.300 --> 00:54:47.000
but

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:50.640
I I think like and I think play is very

00:54:50.640 --> 00:54:53.940
important I just want to emphasize that

00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:58.079
what happens is I I trust the potency of

00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.420
Randomness arising

00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:02.940
it's just like you know when you

00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:05.160
when like stuff is going on and then you

00:55:05.160 --> 00:55:06.599
just have a random thought like

00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:08.940
something random kind of arises your in

00:55:08.940 --> 00:55:12.680
your attention I feel like it's so easy

00:55:12.680 --> 00:55:15.900
to like with our current models like

00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:18.240
seek what is continuous and then dismiss

00:55:18.240 --> 00:55:20.160
what is discontinuous

00:55:20.160 --> 00:55:22.380
and there's something about just like

00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:24.900
the move of being like it's suit like

00:55:24.900 --> 00:55:27.119
why is this random thing happening and

00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.359
just noticing it enough to be like

00:55:30.359 --> 00:55:31.980
oh

00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:34.559
and it's not that every random thing

00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:38.099
will be potent it's more so that it's

00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:40.500
for me like pausing enough to be like oh

00:55:40.500 --> 00:55:42.119
this random thing is arising in my

00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:44.640
attention and then staying with it long

00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:45.960
enough that

00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:48.359
when there actually is kind of like an

00:55:48.359 --> 00:55:51.839
aliveness or Eros attached to it like

00:55:51.839 --> 00:55:54.500
it's like oh my body's responding to it

00:55:54.500 --> 00:55:57.180
trusting the body responds rather than

00:55:57.180 --> 00:55:59.819
the just like the justification or the

00:55:59.819 --> 00:56:02.099
rationalization like the why

00:56:02.099 --> 00:56:04.500
so yeah I just wanted to

00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:07.260
just like a little move yeah I've been

00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.760
in groups where

00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:11.460
someone would say something

00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:13.559
you know you people usually start like

00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:15.240
this I don't know why I'm just gonna put

00:56:15.240 --> 00:56:17.280
it out there this is what I see and it

00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:19.440
has no energy and people move on and

00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:22.559
then the next day that thing was like

00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:26.099
that's what that thing is right now we

00:56:26.099 --> 00:56:29.040
don't know if it was there you you don't

00:56:29.040 --> 00:56:30.960
know call which cause and effect like

00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:32.819
linear cause and effect is is not

00:56:32.819 --> 00:56:34.859
important here but

00:56:34.859 --> 00:56:39.180
um but yeah so so you have to be able to

00:56:39.180 --> 00:56:41.280
say what's you know I don't know I'm

00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:43.020
looking I'm seeing this and you have to

00:56:43.020 --> 00:56:46.260
not be afraid to say it but not also be

00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:49.740
like squished when it just and didn't

00:56:49.740 --> 00:56:52.980
have any energy you know like whatever

00:56:52.980 --> 00:56:55.559
um and so

00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:58.619
so this is actually how our own minds

00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:00.900
work and so this you want to have this

00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:03.359
you know you want to spread it out

00:57:03.359 --> 00:57:05.940
amongst many Minds doing a lot of

00:57:05.940 --> 00:57:08.520
imagination and how much more cross

00:57:08.520 --> 00:57:12.119
modal imagining is happening with all

00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:13.859
these different Minds

00:57:13.859 --> 00:57:17.099
um is is what is what the power of the

00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:19.319
collective is

00:57:19.319 --> 00:57:21.180
um

00:57:21.180 --> 00:57:24.540
because like when Ray says oh uh the

00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:27.420
insight has no waste right I could

00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:29.700
probably have a five hour conversation

00:57:29.700 --> 00:57:33.119
because waste and then I think this and

00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:35.160
I thought that when he said that and

00:57:35.160 --> 00:57:37.020
then I was thinking about well you know

00:57:37.020 --> 00:57:40.079
recite like it's very generative you

00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.660
know and and uh

00:57:42.660 --> 00:57:45.000
yeah but then I don't know if he means

00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:46.619
it that way so this is what you're

00:57:46.619 --> 00:57:48.240
trying to do you're trying to increase

00:57:48.240 --> 00:57:52.559
like the cross modal uh

00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:56.599
like hybridization of everything

00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:19.920
and if you think about that uh that

00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:21.720
saying you know the stages of old

00:58:21.720 --> 00:58:24.480
created language it's not actually how a

00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:26.520
language first started

00:58:26.520 --> 00:58:28.800
with someone making a metaphor that

00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:31.319
never been made before and then it

00:58:31.319 --> 00:58:34.619
persists and what we need to do is be in

00:58:34.619 --> 00:58:37.980
the business of doing that original work

00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:40.640
over again

00:58:42.240 --> 00:58:45.059
okay so we're going to go into a half

00:58:45.059 --> 00:58:47.579
hour breakout group

00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:49.640
um you're going to try to practice

00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:52.079
Collective insight

00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:56.420
which means you uh want to be present

00:58:56.420 --> 00:58:59.700
and I'm going to give you a topic and

00:58:59.700 --> 00:59:03.599
you want to focus on the topic

00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:06.420
but also in the background understand

00:59:06.420 --> 00:59:10.079
that you're with this group of people

00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:12.540
now Collective Insight practice when you

00:59:12.540 --> 00:59:14.520
first start

00:59:14.520 --> 00:59:16.680
um it it

00:59:16.680 --> 00:59:20.520
um you can have a lot of Silence because

00:59:20.520 --> 00:59:23.460
what you're waiting for is

00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:26.160
something visual or you could say I hear

00:59:26.160 --> 00:59:28.260
a child's voice if you're if you're

00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:32.160
auditory but you're waiting for like to

00:59:32.160 --> 00:59:34.260
be surprised like I don't know why I'm

00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:36.119
thinking about this this is what I see

00:59:36.119 --> 00:59:38.640
you want to stay on the topic but you

00:59:38.640 --> 00:59:42.140
want to see if you're surprised by some

00:59:42.140 --> 00:59:44.640
representation or image or something

00:59:44.640 --> 00:59:47.760
that comes comes in your mind

00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:50.819
um and then you put it there in the

00:59:50.819 --> 00:59:52.140
space

00:59:52.140 --> 00:59:56.640
um and try not to uh narrate what what

00:59:56.640 --> 00:59:59.220
its meaning is because it's there for

00:59:59.220 --> 01:00:02.640
everyone to then uh populate your

01:00:02.640 --> 01:00:04.980
landscape we can come back and talk

01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:07.440
about what we think uh the meaning was

01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.599
afterwards

01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:11.579
um so

01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:14.579
um resist resist

01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:18.180
the temptation to share your meta

01:00:18.180 --> 01:00:19.400
thoughts

01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:23.160
or what is happening to you you can do

01:00:23.160 --> 01:00:24.960
that when you come back but you don't

01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:26.940
want to collapse the Insight practice

01:00:26.940 --> 01:00:30.599
and especially if something really cool

01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:32.880
is happening and you have an insight

01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:36.359
about the fact the process itself

01:00:36.359 --> 01:00:39.119
um that's off topic so keep that for

01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:42.299
when you come back that's a meta move

01:00:42.299 --> 01:00:43.380
um

01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:45.839
and what we're trying to deal with today

01:00:45.839 --> 01:00:48.180
okay now this is a this is the

01:00:48.180 --> 01:00:50.880
difficulty in doing this in this format

01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:54.420
is Insight practice works best with

01:00:54.420 --> 01:00:57.359
people who have a shared context if so

01:00:57.359 --> 01:00:59.339
if you're all working on an art project

01:00:59.339 --> 01:01:01.920
or if you're all working

01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:02.880
um

01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:05.339
um a campaign for someone or if you're

01:01:05.339 --> 01:01:08.880
all working on restoring a forest

01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:12.059
um that context is not only really

01:01:12.059 --> 01:01:15.359
really shared but small enough to really

01:01:15.359 --> 01:01:18.240
do something about now we don't have a

01:01:18.240 --> 01:01:20.700
shared context here so we're going to

01:01:20.700 --> 01:01:25.040
work on something that's much more broad

01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:28.200
so don't get worried about

01:01:28.200 --> 01:01:30.180
um that it doesn't lead to any kind of

01:01:30.180 --> 01:01:32.640
potential action because we're not

01:01:32.640 --> 01:01:35.040
because because we have to choose a very

01:01:35.040 --> 01:01:38.220
broad context to have it be shared does

01:01:38.220 --> 01:01:39.960
that make sense

01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:43.319
okay the context is like

01:01:43.319 --> 01:01:48.059
what is happening in the world or what

01:01:48.059 --> 01:01:49.319
is happening

01:01:49.319 --> 01:01:51.960
with the planet

01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:54.480
you can use whenever one feels more

01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.640
powerful for you

01:01:56.640 --> 01:01:59.819
is you can bring that it doesn't matter

01:01:59.819 --> 01:02:02.339
if people use the different ones

01:02:02.339 --> 01:02:03.900
what is

01:02:03.900 --> 01:02:07.020
actually happening in the world what is

01:02:07.020 --> 01:02:09.359
actually happening in the planet and

01:02:09.359 --> 01:02:12.900
you're basically want your

01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:15.540
the energy in your body to show you

01:02:15.540 --> 01:02:17.819
something like show me you can have this

01:02:17.819 --> 01:02:21.619
attitude like show me

01:02:21.859 --> 01:02:25.260
okay so these are just little little

01:02:25.260 --> 01:02:27.780
prompts and we're going to go for a half

01:02:27.780 --> 01:02:31.859
an hour and we'll come back and then uh

01:02:31.859 --> 01:02:35.720
share so let me do this

01:02:40.099 --> 01:02:43.200
okay create

01:02:43.200 --> 01:02:46.099
options

01:03:22.200 --> 01:03:25.200
foreign

01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:32.819
did you not get into a room

01:03:32.819 --> 01:03:34.700
I don't think so

01:03:34.700 --> 01:03:37.319
it should be saying

01:03:37.319 --> 01:03:39.440
um

01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:43.880
drawing join breakout room

01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:47.059
number two

01:03:52.740 --> 01:03:54.720
oh

01:03:54.720 --> 01:03:57.180
yeah Aaron's trying to get in

01:03:57.180 --> 01:04:00.000
okay okay was that the question yeah

01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:01.940
yeah we weren't sure if it was just yeah

01:04:01.940 --> 01:04:04.740
no I'll get it I'll get them in okay

01:04:04.740 --> 01:04:09.559
thanks uh leave break album okay

01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:18.200
I don't know why I'm not in a room

01:04:20.339 --> 01:04:23.000
it's free

01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:24.380
awesome

01:05:28.740 --> 01:05:31.260
can you hear me oh I can hear you now

01:05:31.260 --> 01:05:32.940
yeah okay I have an idea I'm gonna put

01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:35.640
you in the waiting room and then and

01:05:35.640 --> 01:05:38.220
then you'll I'll put you back in okay

01:05:38.220 --> 01:05:40.579
okay

01:06:05.220 --> 01:06:07.619
okay now let's see if I can put you in

01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:09.980
that room

01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:15.359
so how are you in that room so it's like

01:06:15.359 --> 01:06:18.020
weird

01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:21.859
okay

01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.539
I'm gonna put you

01:06:24.539 --> 01:06:26.700
in room four and then take you right

01:06:26.700 --> 01:06:30.000
back out and put you in two

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:32.780
we'll see

01:06:34.619 --> 01:06:38.720
you have to join it did you join it

01:06:55.020 --> 01:06:58.640
oh well it's not working



## Cohort 3

00:00:06.540 --> 00:00:09.179
okay

00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:09.790
um

00:00:09.790 --> 00:00:11.519
[Music]

00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:13.139
okay we're gonna do something different

00:00:13.139 --> 00:00:16.020
today it's a little

00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:16.800
um

00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:19.800
somber

00:00:21.420 --> 00:00:24.420
um but maybe not maybe we can find

00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:29.279
some more in it uh somewhere so we're

00:00:29.279 --> 00:00:30.960
talking about

00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:31.980
um

00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:35.280
let me just put this up again just so we

00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.239
can

00:00:36.239 --> 00:00:39.420
Orient ourselves I find it's it's good

00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:42.120
for me so hopefully it's good for you

00:00:42.120 --> 00:00:44.219
and people are still coming in so that's

00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:46.860
also helpful

00:00:46.860 --> 00:00:48.539
um

00:00:48.539 --> 00:00:50.460
I know that's not right that's not what

00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:52.020
I want

00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:54.800
uh

00:00:57.059 --> 00:00:59.579
okay so

00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:03.440
um this is just a representation of

00:01:03.440 --> 00:01:07.460
where we've been sort of it's extremely

00:01:07.460 --> 00:01:10.460
uh simple

00:01:10.460 --> 00:01:13.200
and that is

00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.119
come on come on come on we got people

00:01:15.119 --> 00:01:17.520
coming and so that's okay

00:01:17.520 --> 00:01:19.740
it just doesn't want whoops

00:01:19.740 --> 00:01:22.439
okay so we talked about we're talking

00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:24.299
about putting the Mind back in the body

00:01:24.299 --> 00:01:27.420
and the body back into nature and so we

00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:31.740
have this kind of rubric about what Maps

00:01:31.740 --> 00:01:35.880
directly on our animal uh nature because

00:01:35.880 --> 00:01:38.040
then it's easy to put the animal into

00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.880
nature right so that's kind of part of

00:01:41.880 --> 00:01:45.960
the design of this uh speculative

00:01:45.960 --> 00:01:48.840
philosophy this Theory

00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.140
and we always say that

00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:53.880
um when people ask well what are the

00:01:53.880 --> 00:01:57.720
affects or what is our is you know

00:01:57.720 --> 00:02:00.720
the sensory motor core I always remind

00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:03.960
them that if it if it's not something

00:02:03.960 --> 00:02:07.439
that happens in a in an animal uh you

00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.539
know the higher animals like a cat or a

00:02:09.539 --> 00:02:10.679
dog

00:02:10.679 --> 00:02:13.560
um then it's it's more into the human

00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:16.980
realm this is just a distinction it's a

00:02:16.980 --> 00:02:19.560
kind of Distinction we can make

00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.260
now you notice that making this kind of

00:02:22.260 --> 00:02:25.319
Distinction justifies things differently

00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:27.060
than if you made other kinds of

00:02:27.060 --> 00:02:29.040
distinctions right

00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:31.260
um so even this is kind of a

00:02:31.260 --> 00:02:34.620
justification system

00:02:34.620 --> 00:02:35.400
um

00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:38.819
we can hardly get out of justifying but

00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:41.700
then we saw that imagination

00:02:41.700 --> 00:02:43.739
um there's precursors in the animal

00:02:43.739 --> 00:02:45.780
realm animals can simulate their

00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:47.099
environment they can simulate

00:02:47.099 --> 00:02:49.980
hypothetical environments but humans

00:02:49.980 --> 00:02:52.500
take this to a whole other level we

00:02:52.500 --> 00:02:53.660
talked about

00:02:53.660 --> 00:02:58.019
cross-modal uh metaphors how my arm my

00:02:58.019 --> 00:03:01.560
arm is like the branch of a tree this is

00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.800
easy for a human to understand it's not

00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.560
the kind of thing that

00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:08.879
um well

00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.340
maybe that one is something that an

00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:13.920
animal can understand like you know you

00:03:13.920 --> 00:03:16.080
can get a pet squirrel to walk on your

00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:20.159
arms so this that's one's not very very

00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:21.540
good but

00:03:21.540 --> 00:03:23.879
there's all kinds of you know the the

00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:28.019
the sky was like cotton or something

00:03:28.019 --> 00:03:29.760
like that

00:03:29.760 --> 00:03:32.700
um and then now we're talking about this

00:03:32.700 --> 00:03:35.180
this area of representations

00:03:35.180 --> 00:03:40.200
representations are once we make this is

00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.680
like that that becomes a representation

00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:47.940
for this so we can then go on and talk

00:03:47.940 --> 00:03:51.120
about the that and this is where we get

00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.599
a little tricky because when we say this

00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:56.459
is like that and that first move is

00:03:56.459 --> 00:03:58.620
understandable and then we manipulate

00:03:58.620 --> 00:04:02.159
what the that is like it can go off into

00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:04.680
to being something that you can hardly

00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:07.200
remember now how is that like the

00:04:07.200 --> 00:04:09.540
original this right and so

00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:12.360
representational so what I'm saying is

00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:15.540
this representation is like the few

00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:18.180
months we spent together

00:04:18.180 --> 00:04:20.459
um and we can understand it as a graphic

00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:23.160
representation but

00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.479
if we get if we took this as fact we

00:04:27.479 --> 00:04:31.919
could go all over the place and never

00:04:31.919 --> 00:04:34.680
um you know if you were taught this

00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:36.900
um you could you would never

00:04:36.900 --> 00:04:41.100
wonder if maybe perception in animals is

00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:42.960
more like humans or something you know

00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:44.220
so

00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:46.979
um so that's the power and the problem

00:04:46.979 --> 00:04:48.660
with breast presentation and then we can

00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:51.479
use them as justification systems

00:04:51.479 --> 00:04:55.979
we talked about how the early stages the

00:04:55.979 --> 00:04:58.380
early discussion around taoism and

00:04:58.380 --> 00:05:02.520
Confucius ideas of sage was clearly

00:05:02.520 --> 00:05:04.440
justifications built on different

00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:06.900
metaphors this one's easy for us to see

00:05:06.900 --> 00:05:09.780
so the moists and the taoists were

00:05:09.780 --> 00:05:12.000
saying you know the sage has the energy

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.900
of like wild flowing rivers in the wild

00:05:15.900 --> 00:05:19.320
uh waves in the ocean and Confucius said

00:05:19.320 --> 00:05:24.960
no the the the signature of wisdom is a

00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:28.080
very well designed irrigation system you

00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:31.199
take that wildness and you design it

00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:34.919
into Youth and so these depending upon

00:05:34.919 --> 00:05:37.500
what model you used you had a completely

00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:41.100
different justification system and the

00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:43.500
contexts are slaying so

00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:47.039
now then I did show this at one point so

00:05:47.039 --> 00:05:50.460
this is a whole other different way of

00:05:50.460 --> 00:05:53.940
looking at animals and human bodies and

00:05:53.940 --> 00:05:57.300
plant forms and Elemental forms and with

00:05:57.300 --> 00:06:00.539
this kind of representation then I could

00:06:00.539 --> 00:06:03.720
justify different things I could say for

00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:07.440
example that we have plant forms in our

00:06:07.440 --> 00:06:10.500
body like the skeleton skeletal system

00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:13.020
the circulatory system the lung the

00:06:13.020 --> 00:06:15.720
kidney the dot the glia and the fascia

00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.300
because they grow like their growth and

00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:21.180
connection type they grow like roots and

00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:23.819
branches and they function they're

00:06:23.819 --> 00:06:26.400
formally function in the same way that

00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:30.120
plants the morphogenic functions of

00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.759
plants whereas in here I'm calling the

00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:36.120
animal forms of the human body are like

00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.400
these single cell animals in US these

00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:40.259
immune cells blood cells that act like

00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:42.960
single cell animals so it has some of

00:06:42.960 --> 00:06:44.840
the same kind of

00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:47.660
language but it's a completely different

00:06:47.660 --> 00:06:50.699
representation in the fact that humans

00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:53.039
can represent things

00:06:53.039 --> 00:06:55.819
cross modally in so many different forms

00:06:55.819 --> 00:06:59.819
means that we have this huge variety of

00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:02.580
metaphors upon which justification

00:07:02.580 --> 00:07:06.419
systems have been built and the purpose

00:07:06.419 --> 00:07:10.560
of this module is not necessarily to set

00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.020
back that tide it's not clear that we

00:07:13.020 --> 00:07:15.840
can do that

00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:18.240
um I'm not trying to justify the

00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:22.020
justification system nor justify not

00:07:22.020 --> 00:07:24.599
having it we're just trying to

00:07:24.599 --> 00:07:26.819
understand that this is part of the

00:07:26.819 --> 00:07:29.880
human condition

00:07:29.880 --> 00:07:30.960
now

00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:32.900
so do those words make sense

00:07:32.900 --> 00:07:36.120
justification and

00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:37.319
um I think we had some good questions

00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.419
last time about the difference between

00:07:39.419 --> 00:07:41.759
like justification and rationalization

00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.280
they're very similar but the word

00:07:44.280 --> 00:07:47.280
rationalization means that you know what

00:07:47.280 --> 00:07:48.900
you're saying is you're just

00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:52.380
trying to rationalize it away like

00:07:52.380 --> 00:07:55.440
um like you're on a diet and today you

00:07:55.440 --> 00:07:58.080
ate way too many calories and then you

00:07:58.080 --> 00:08:00.300
say to yourself well you know

00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:03.360
tomorrow I won't I won't have such a big

00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:04.979
schedule and it was because my schedule

00:08:04.979 --> 00:08:07.380
and this is called it's not really

00:08:07.380 --> 00:08:09.720
justification because it's not really in

00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.240
a system or you don't really believe it

00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.819
when justification systems we're really

00:08:14.819 --> 00:08:17.460
talking about stuff that

00:08:17.460 --> 00:08:21.120
they're unexamined beliefs and they can

00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.020
be very powerful

00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:29.759
the meta-psychologist Greg Enriquez he

00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.099
represents these things in a different

00:08:32.099 --> 00:08:35.700
way he says that the animal mind is mind

00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:38.279
one he called it he calls it the minded

00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:39.779
animal

00:08:39.779 --> 00:08:43.459
and then he says then there's mind too

00:08:43.459 --> 00:08:48.600
mind two is uh exclusive to humans and

00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.779
language and he says we can see mind too

00:08:51.779 --> 00:08:54.260
but we see it by

00:08:54.260 --> 00:08:57.600
we can see Mind One by Behavior so we

00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:01.440
can see mind two by what people say and

00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.480
then he calls mind three the

00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.180
justification system is it that it sits

00:09:06.180 --> 00:09:10.260
on top of uh mind too so

00:09:10.260 --> 00:09:12.180
so that's

00:09:12.180 --> 00:09:15.240
um that's another way another way to

00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.220
understand it and I'm just going to add

00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:20.339
this in so I've been trying to write an

00:09:20.339 --> 00:09:23.220
opinion piece we have an opinion page in

00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:26.760
the pop-up school called pop Ed on AI

00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:30.779
and chatpt and it's interesting to think

00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:35.820
of what chat GPT actually does is just

00:09:35.820 --> 00:09:37.620
appeal to different justification

00:09:37.620 --> 00:09:39.420
systems and if you ask it a question

00:09:39.420 --> 00:09:41.339
it'll give you one or two let's say well

00:09:41.339 --> 00:09:42.660
you could think of it this way you could

00:09:42.660 --> 00:09:43.860
think of it this way you could think of

00:09:43.860 --> 00:09:47.399
it this way and Greg I heard him say the

00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:49.440
other day that these large language

00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:53.220
models are mind three they exist only in

00:09:53.220 --> 00:09:55.260
the justification system they don't

00:09:55.260 --> 00:09:58.080
actually understand language they can't

00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:00.240
they don't understand metaphors and they

00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.600
they're not minded animals so uh just

00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.779
just to put that in your tool kit for

00:10:06.779 --> 00:10:08.040
now

00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:10.140
in your travel kit along with your

00:10:10.140 --> 00:10:12.140
toothpaste

00:10:12.140 --> 00:10:16.320
and your shaving cream we only we only

00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:18.240
work with travel kits in the pop-up

00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.339
school we don't have try not to carry

00:10:20.339 --> 00:10:22.440
too much luggage just a little little

00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.440
travel kits of understanding are there

00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:27.660
any questions

00:10:27.660 --> 00:10:29.399
yeah I'm kind of curious about

00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.459
justification and morality and it also

00:10:32.459 --> 00:10:33.720
feels like there's a big cultural

00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:35.760
component to this you know culture

00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:38.100
determining what's moral and not moral

00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:39.860
and yeah yeah

00:10:39.860 --> 00:10:45.480
so to to argue a put moral position you

00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:47.600
need to import a justification system

00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.399
some people will exit the moral question

00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.399
by saying well it's legal abortion's

00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.100
legal you see so I kind of I just I'm

00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:59.060
not even gonna be in the

00:10:59.060 --> 00:11:01.560
conversation I I don't even want to

00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:03.660
enter the justification system with you

00:11:03.660 --> 00:11:07.620
I'm a judge I realize that I'm sitting

00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:09.899
in robes and I'm representing the state

00:11:09.899 --> 00:11:12.660
of search and such I can't go down the

00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:16.260
moral justification I'm taught not to I

00:11:16.260 --> 00:11:18.180
just have to say well it's legal or has

00:11:18.180 --> 00:11:21.000
legal precedence or whatever

00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.000
um so and then within morality there's

00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.500
many different justification systems and

00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:29.160
um

00:11:29.160 --> 00:11:32.700
and in terms of like abortion

00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:34.880
um it's it's

00:11:34.880 --> 00:11:39.060
abortion like killing or is abortion

00:11:39.060 --> 00:11:41.640
like elective surgery

00:11:41.640 --> 00:11:43.019
and

00:11:43.019 --> 00:11:45.899
if you understand the other person

00:11:45.899 --> 00:11:49.140
really has this intuition that abortion

00:11:49.140 --> 00:11:51.980
is like killing then

00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:54.240
what what do you

00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.700
if I enter in that reality then there's

00:11:56.700 --> 00:11:59.160
no way I'm going to say well abortion's

00:11:59.160 --> 00:12:03.540
okay once I'm inhabited that reality I I

00:12:03.540 --> 00:12:08.220
can't I can't there's no place to argue

00:12:08.220 --> 00:12:11.100
um so this is an idea we're going to

00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:13.260
talk about the moral imagination we're

00:12:13.260 --> 00:12:16.560
gonna with uh Mark Johnson and lacoff's

00:12:16.560 --> 00:12:19.019
work later but we're gonna it'll go back

00:12:19.019 --> 00:12:21.660
it'll keep pin pinging back to this

00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:25.500
notion of sitting inside of a mental

00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:26.420
model

00:12:26.420 --> 00:12:29.640
that makes sense to you because this is

00:12:29.640 --> 00:12:32.360
like that

00:12:33.959 --> 00:12:37.260
so I'll just I know we have tree work I

00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:39.120
hope it's not too bad and we are going

00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:42.060
into a breakout group

00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:45.180
um so

00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:49.860
I asked and and to so you if you think

00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:52.920
about this imagination

00:12:52.920 --> 00:12:57.959
um I asked chat GPT I said let's do a

00:12:57.959 --> 00:13:00.860
thought experiment

00:13:00.899 --> 00:13:04.019
so Jack we're saying chat GPT doesn't

00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:07.560
have imagination it only it's like

00:13:07.560 --> 00:13:10.620
like us justification is built on top of

00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:14.040
imagination Greg will say chat GPS only

00:13:14.040 --> 00:13:18.060
justification so I said to chat GTP GPT

00:13:18.060 --> 00:13:19.220
whatever

00:13:19.220 --> 00:13:23.040
uh I said let's let's let's do a thought

00:13:23.040 --> 00:13:25.019
of experiment I said

00:13:25.019 --> 00:13:28.560
imagine a world where instead of people

00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:30.680
standing on the surface of the planet

00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:32.880
they hung

00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:35.700
there they hung from the surface of the

00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:36.839
planet

00:13:36.839 --> 00:13:39.779
what would how would these these animals

00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:42.420
on how would the animals on this planet

00:13:42.420 --> 00:13:45.720
be like and it couldn't really couldn't

00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.660
realize that from a certain perspective

00:13:48.660 --> 00:13:50.639
we're hanging on the surface of the

00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:51.420
planet

00:13:51.420 --> 00:13:53.399
it couldn't do the perspective

00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:55.620
imaginatory shift so I started saying

00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:57.240
that well biologically they would have

00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.300
to be adapted to this and that like it

00:14:00.300 --> 00:14:03.660
couldn't it couldn't use the imagination

00:14:03.660 --> 00:14:08.519
I I asked chat GPT you stand on a scale

00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.339
and weigh yourself how can you weigh the

00:14:11.339 --> 00:14:13.139
scale

00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:15.060
and it went through like well you can

00:14:15.060 --> 00:14:18.360
get you can get uh pre-weighed things

00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.700
and put it on and then and blah blah

00:14:20.700 --> 00:14:22.560
blah blah but the way you wear your

00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:25.260
scale is you go like this right and then

00:14:25.260 --> 00:14:26.519
you look at it

00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.980
because it's it's pushing down on it so

00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:31.440
I couldn't do the perspective of

00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.560
reversion because it can imagine outside

00:14:34.560 --> 00:14:36.779
of the prompt that I gave it

00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:40.560
right so so it's just trying to it's so

00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:42.420
it said well you can do this you can do

00:14:42.420 --> 00:14:44.399
that and you can do that it's looking at

00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.380
all these kind of systems that I can

00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:49.860
answer the question from but it can't it

00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:53.220
can't imagine something a perspectival

00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:55.019
shift

00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:57.779
um so that's kind of interesting I know

00:14:57.779 --> 00:14:59.600
it's a little off

00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.600
off quiet

00:15:05.839 --> 00:15:08.600
but our justification system

00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:12.540
plays with perspectival shifts so that

00:15:12.540 --> 00:15:15.899
if we're locked in a debate and neither

00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:18.959
of us can you know adjudicate it then we

00:15:18.959 --> 00:15:20.820
could say but let's do a thought of

00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:22.860
experiment and look at the situation

00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:25.680
from a completely novel perspective

00:15:25.680 --> 00:15:27.839
and this is some so this is where

00:15:27.839 --> 00:15:30.199
justification rides on the imagination

00:15:30.199 --> 00:15:33.180
and what does it be to be like that some

00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:35.760
this is like that

00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:38.579
um and you'll notice that in moral

00:15:38.579 --> 00:15:41.820
debates uh or or moral yeah debates like

00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:43.760
when you see them in high school and and

00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.139
some people or when you're talking to

00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:49.079
some people you'll see you'll often hear

00:15:49.079 --> 00:15:51.720
people with very little imagination say

00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:53.639
well that's not right because it's just

00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.100
like stealing you know like they'll

00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.339
you'll say well should the husband steal

00:15:59.339 --> 00:16:03.480
the drugs from the pharmacy to kill to

00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.279
save his wife and we're like no that's

00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:08.760
like if I went downtown and stole you

00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:10.920
know your money and it's not a very

00:16:10.920 --> 00:16:12.800
image you know

00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:15.600
their frame of reference of this is like

00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.839
that is very is very tight

00:16:18.839 --> 00:16:21.000
um so just want to show that like what

00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.220
we have as people is our justification

00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:27.060
system rides on imagination what is this

00:16:27.060 --> 00:16:30.060
like to be that but that doesn't mean

00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:32.940
that it's fantasy right we're not saying

00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:34.980
that it's actually more powerful because

00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.360
we can we can imagine these perspectival

00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:42.300
shifts and look at a

00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:46.680
a a whole argument or in a different way

00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:50.160
justify in a completely different way

00:16:50.160 --> 00:16:51.720
just to Ping off what you're saying

00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:52.980
about the AI I mean it was really

00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:54.600
interesting because that Cheryl's thing

00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:56.399
when people were asking the AI questions

00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.519
and it was like creating the art you

00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.320
know I asked about a black widow and it

00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.000
actually showed the cartoon character

00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:05.220
the Black Widow instead of an actual

00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:08.280
spider in nature yeah but that's because

00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:12.000
Xavier was was creating filters so he

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.579
was saying show me only cartoons like at

00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:16.980
first he said show me only Ernest Heckle

00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:19.860
kind of things and then and and so he

00:17:19.860 --> 00:17:22.140
was he was doing that

00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:23.939
yeah

00:17:23.939 --> 00:17:26.040
um but

00:17:26.040 --> 00:17:26.699
um

00:17:26.699 --> 00:17:29.640
well we won't go into it but but but I

00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.740
think there is something like that it it

00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:35.460
will get locked into uh like single

00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:38.400
entry kind of focus

00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.559
um unless you prompt it and then you

00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.740
could you could prompt it into like nah

00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:44.940
I don't want to do cartoons or something

00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:47.160
do something else so

00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.580
um yeah

00:17:50.820 --> 00:17:52.799
uh I'll jump in

00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:53.940
um

00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:57.179
I'm sitting with

00:17:57.179 --> 00:18:02.179
this idea of our

00:18:02.179 --> 00:18:08.039
skill our ability for perspectival shift

00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:13.140
the landscape of possibility that arises

00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:16.679
and this question that Holly asked about

00:18:16.679 --> 00:18:19.679
morality

00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.860
the filter I'm looking through is your

00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:26.640
Note 5 in this month's module Which hat

00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.880
which draws a distinction between

00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:33.960
epigenetic and genetic influences

00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:40.200
so my question is to myself more than

00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.039
you Bonnie

00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:49.919
is more is my moral sense genetic or

00:18:49.919 --> 00:18:52.919
epigenetic

00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:58.080
well I think you I think it's epigenetic

00:18:58.080 --> 00:19:00.840
I don't think it's genetic I mean there

00:19:00.840 --> 00:19:03.000
are certain things that come with our

00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.220
animal nature our pro-social animal

00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:09.720
nature like a sense of fairness

00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.240
um this is more like in the realm of

00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.220
Ethics I would say

00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:16.919
um which is more secular and every day

00:19:16.919 --> 00:19:18.960
but what's interesting about the

00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.179
question is I'm going to slide the

00:19:21.179 --> 00:19:22.799
question to a different perspective I

00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:24.900
actually wrote this down

00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:28.919
so you could say you have a moral

00:19:28.919 --> 00:19:30.539
question

00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.840
um and you a person commits a horrible

00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:34.799
crime

00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.400
and you could say is this

00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.640
person in front of me what metaphors

00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.640
more useful here the metaphor of a

00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.760
machine you know maybe or the metaphor

00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:50.760
of Free Will and of course this is a

00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:53.520
dilemma in our course courts because if

00:19:53.520 --> 00:19:55.980
the person's insane we say well I can't

00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:58.080
help it he's insane that's not his fault

00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:01.320
it's more like a machine

00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:04.260
um and if if we consider them not insane

00:20:04.260 --> 00:20:06.480
then they're liable they're responsible

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.020
but if they're sociopaths uh that's a

00:20:10.020 --> 00:20:12.960
kind of insanity but that's not insane

00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.020
enough why their sociopath is it because

00:20:16.020 --> 00:20:19.880
they choose to be a so so so

00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.160
this is the problem with these

00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.980
justification systems is that when the

00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:27.660
cases are clear

00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:30.000
that anyone can decide but when the

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.620
cases are nuanced uh then you start to

00:20:34.620 --> 00:20:36.660
see

00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:39.480
you you start to ask yourself well what

00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:40.980
is

00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:43.340
what is the grounds on which I'm

00:20:43.340 --> 00:20:45.840
reasoning here

00:20:45.840 --> 00:20:47.820
um and

00:20:47.820 --> 00:20:49.880
um

00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:51.840
and that's a little bit of what we're

00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:55.940
going to try to do to experience the

00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:58.160
the

00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:02.840
amorphousness of the grounds in which we

00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:05.820
justify very important things that are

00:21:05.820 --> 00:21:07.919
very important to us they're actually

00:21:07.919 --> 00:21:10.919
quite amorphous and then an interesting

00:21:10.919 --> 00:21:13.200
question will come when we talk about

00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.559
the moral animal is then what are we we

00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.320
use justification but where is

00:21:19.320 --> 00:21:22.670
if that's amorphous and not very

00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:24.480
[Music]

00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:28.020
not very reliable like

00:21:28.020 --> 00:21:30.539
in terms of

00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:33.240
its sliding context then what what is

00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:34.980
can we sink our teeth into something

00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:37.940
more reliable

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.440
I should go out there and make those

00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:51.200
people justify ruining my

00:21:51.600 --> 00:21:54.780
sound quality Claudia

00:21:54.780 --> 00:21:57.000
yeah I find myself trying to find

00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:58.919
something

00:21:58.919 --> 00:22:01.320
you know antecedent to the justification

00:22:01.320 --> 00:22:02.580
system

00:22:02.580 --> 00:22:07.200
in something beyond the human a sort of

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.480
you know I sometimes wonder if

00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.480
you know the deeper

00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:14.940
the quieter

00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:17.520
we go

00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:19.620
um

00:22:19.620 --> 00:22:21.600
I don't know maybe

00:22:21.600 --> 00:22:23.340
I don't know maybe at least it clears up

00:22:23.340 --> 00:22:24.840
some confusion in the justification

00:22:24.840 --> 00:22:26.700
system but

00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:29.100
I'm sort of trying to because it's part

00:22:29.100 --> 00:22:31.440
of our story and our story is continuous

00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.380
with the cosmos right so somehow

00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:40.200
I don't want it to be floating about

00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.520
just in the humans somehow

00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:46.140
yeah I think that's a feeling people

00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:48.179
have had for a long time and so they

00:22:48.179 --> 00:22:50.400
usually they just say that's God you

00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:51.179
know

00:22:51.179 --> 00:22:53.700
kill them all let God sort it out right

00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:55.320
so

00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:57.480
um but that's that's one of the the

00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.740
really strongest needs for a God or a

00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:04.280
higher truth which we don't understand

00:23:04.280 --> 00:23:07.080
because there is this feeling that we're

00:23:07.080 --> 00:23:09.240
floating in midair

00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.299
now I would argue

00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:15.480
and this is not a completed thought

00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:16.799
because I can't wait till they get to

00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.320
the moral animal that

00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:22.860
we are the organ the moral organ of

00:23:22.860 --> 00:23:23.880
nature

00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:26.659
so just like our pancreases can't do

00:23:26.659 --> 00:23:31.380
what our kidneys can can do then

00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:35.460
um there's no other organ in nature that

00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:37.520
um has dysfunction

00:23:37.520 --> 00:23:40.860
and it's both exciting and horrifying at

00:23:40.860 --> 00:23:42.600
the same time and what we don't we're

00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:43.260
not

00:23:43.260 --> 00:23:46.380
we don't do it very well uh we all know

00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:48.179
we don't I mean everybody knows we don't

00:23:48.179 --> 00:23:50.220
do it very well you know even the ones

00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:53.340
that are in the this the business of uh

00:23:53.340 --> 00:23:58.140
creating moral Excellence or teaching so

00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:00.179
um I think that's

00:24:00.179 --> 00:24:02.100
what

00:24:02.100 --> 00:24:04.100
um

00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:07.500
yeah I think it's it's it's it's a new

00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:09.360
organ

00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:12.179
um as far as I can tell

00:24:12.179 --> 00:24:14.240
um

00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.460
you know and it still relies on these

00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:19.559
other things we get from nature but it

00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:24.320
but um it seems seems that it is

00:24:24.320 --> 00:24:27.179
what are you know what this how this

00:24:27.179 --> 00:24:29.400
organ functions

00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:31.740
or supposed to function and there's no

00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:34.260
way to get a transplant because

00:24:34.260 --> 00:24:37.260
you know just unless the aliens come

00:24:37.260 --> 00:24:39.000
down and

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.820
um yeah you know the Dalai Lama said if

00:24:41.820 --> 00:24:43.559
there's a surgery that can make people

00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.140
enlightened we should force everyone to

00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:48.559
have it

00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:53.580
okay but maybe when we do this exercise

00:24:53.580 --> 00:24:56.460
we're doing gonna do a real exercise and

00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:58.320
this I think some of these questions

00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:01.620
will come forward uh during the breakout

00:25:01.620 --> 00:25:04.020
groups right

00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:05.640
all right so I'm going to share my

00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:09.059
screen and I'm gonna share with you what

00:25:09.059 --> 00:25:12.860
I consider the most remarkable

00:25:12.860 --> 00:25:20.220
feet of justification in the modern era

00:25:20.419 --> 00:25:23.039
you have to go back to Aquinas Saint

00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.820
Thomas of Aquinas uh whose work to get

00:25:26.820 --> 00:25:28.440
something as

00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.919
uh fabulous

00:25:31.919 --> 00:25:36.200
an example is this and what it is

00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:39.500
Barack Obama's

00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:43.100
Nobel Peace Prize

00:25:43.100 --> 00:25:46.380
acceptance speech has anyone ever read

00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:48.419
this

00:25:48.419 --> 00:25:52.919
okay so from this uh I'll you know I'll

00:25:52.919 --> 00:25:54.659
put it I should put it in the chat

00:25:54.659 --> 00:25:57.240
because

00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.279
from this

00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:01.559
perspective I mean even if you've read

00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.020
it before I can't find the chat right

00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:07.140
now because I've got the okay so from

00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:10.100
the um

00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:12.779
what's we should really try to read it

00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:13.980
we're going to read a little bit of it

00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:16.320
but because

00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:19.380
normally we just read it and we'd be in

00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:21.779
the Logics that he's laying out but

00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:24.659
we're gonna look at it

00:26:24.659 --> 00:26:25.200
um

00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.120
so when you're going to breakout groups

00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:29.100
you might want to like look at it too

00:26:29.100 --> 00:26:31.440
we're going to look at it from this

00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:33.720
perspective of like what the are

00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.440
people like what is going on right

00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:39.120
so

00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:41.179
um

00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:43.500
so he says but perhaps the most profound

00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:45.360
issue surrounding my receipt of this

00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:47.760
prize which is the Nobel Peace Prize

00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:50.220
also given by the way to Henry Kissinger

00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:53.400
that other Warlord

00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:54.900
um is the fact that I am

00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:56.820
commander-in-chief of the military of a

00:26:56.820 --> 00:26:59.820
nation in the midst of two Wars right so

00:26:59.820 --> 00:27:01.980
that's pretty ironic right

00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:05.640
uh so he's gonna justify this now what's

00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:07.559
interesting is the Nobel committee

00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.700
didn't have to justify it uh so Barack

00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:15.000
knows he's got to justify this

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:15.600
um

00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:17.940
so still we are at War and I'm

00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:19.860
responsible for the deployment of

00:27:19.860 --> 00:27:21.960
thousands of Young Americans to battle

00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:23.820
the distant land

00:27:23.820 --> 00:27:25.919
whoa

00:27:25.919 --> 00:27:30.960
that's an interesting statement quiet

00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.799
some will kill and some will be killed

00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.620
uh acute sense of the cost all right so

00:27:37.620 --> 00:27:40.679
now these questions are not new uh and

00:27:40.679 --> 00:27:42.539
then he says war in one form another

00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:44.700
appeared with the first man at the dawn

00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:46.679
of History its morality was not

00:27:46.679 --> 00:27:49.679
questioned it was simply a fact like

00:27:49.679 --> 00:27:52.559
drought or disease the manner Which

00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:54.720
tribes and then civilizations sought

00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.000
power and settled their differences so

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.760
this brings in a world view that you may

00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:02.100
or may not agree with

00:28:02.100 --> 00:28:03.659
um

00:28:03.659 --> 00:28:07.860
so the concept of a just War emerged

00:28:07.860 --> 00:28:10.080
suggesting that war is Justified only

00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:12.600
when certain conditions were met

00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:15.419
if it is waged as a last resort

00:28:15.419 --> 00:28:18.720
or in self-defense if the force used is

00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:20.880
proportional and if whenever possible

00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:23.520
civilians are spared from violence that

00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:27.059
this is a peculiar statement because the

00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:31.320
two Wars he's deploying uh don't qualify

00:28:31.320 --> 00:28:33.299
for any of these

00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:37.559
and yeah it just flows eloquently out of

00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:38.640
his

00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.720
beautiful mouth

00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.080
and then he says of course we know that

00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:48.179
for most of History this concept of just

00:28:48.179 --> 00:28:51.000
war was rarely observed so how can

00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.220
someone see how we use the justification

00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:56.159
he's getting so much distance from the

00:28:56.159 --> 00:28:59.900
fact he's a man in in

00:29:00.120 --> 00:29:03.539
a position of moral choice he has he

00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:07.220
he's just justifying it way

00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:13.500
Wars between armies gave way to Wars

00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:15.480
between between nations and then of

00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:18.720
course he appeals to uh the most just

00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.960
war in the world which is the World War

00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:24.380
II

00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:25.380
um

00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:29.039
and he talks about how we've tried to

00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.880
become more peaceful after World War II

00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.539
um

00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:37.740
and that there's been no third world war

00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.080
um and this is also peculiar

00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:45.600
justification that the fact that the U.S

00:29:45.600 --> 00:29:49.559
has been Waging War every day since the

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.320
World War II in order to prevent a world

00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:56.340
war is itself War

00:29:56.340 --> 00:29:59.240
um and then he talks about these things

00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:02.760
list lifting people from poverty blah

00:30:02.760 --> 00:30:05.179
blah blah

00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:09.240
um new threats and uh on the horrific

00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:11.159
scale

00:30:11.159 --> 00:30:15.059
um and then uh

00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:17.279
and it will require us to think in new

00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.980
ways about the Notions of just War and

00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:23.120
the apparent imperatives of a just peace

00:30:23.120 --> 00:30:27.240
now this is extremely interesting

00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:31.740
rhetorical device because now he says

00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:35.700
we don't only have to justify War

00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:41.000
we have to justify not war

00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:44.840
that's what that means

00:30:45.179 --> 00:30:46.940
so he's he's

00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:49.260
rejecting the notion

00:30:49.260 --> 00:30:53.960
of an always good piece

00:30:57.419 --> 00:30:59.460
we must begin by acknowledging the hard

00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:01.320
truth we will not eradicate violent

00:31:01.320 --> 00:31:03.659
conflict in our lifetimes there will be

00:31:03.659 --> 00:31:05.700
times when Nations acting individually

00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:07.860
or in concert will find the use of force

00:31:07.860 --> 00:31:10.440
not only necessarily but morally

00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.980
Justified

00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.980
then he appeals to Martin Luther King

00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:20.880
who I I shuddered in his grave at this

00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.260
point because of course Martin Luther

00:31:22.260 --> 00:31:24.740
King was totally against the Vietnam War

00:31:24.740 --> 00:31:28.620
he saw it as stemming from the same

00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:31.799
impulse as racism I made this statement

00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:33.899
mindful of what Martin Luther King Jr

00:31:33.899 --> 00:31:36.480
said in this same ceremony years ago

00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.179
violence never brings permanent peace it

00:31:39.179 --> 00:31:40.919
solves no social problem it merely

00:31:40.919 --> 00:31:43.500
creates new and more complicated ones as

00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:45.059
someone who stands here as a direct

00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:47.940
consequence of Dr King's life work I am

00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:50.279
living testimony to the moral force of

00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.279
non-violence

00:31:54.419 --> 00:31:57.240
now do you wonder what a lot of people

00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:01.700
 hated Barack Obama

00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:08.100
Birch it's all it's like virtue single

00:32:08.100 --> 00:32:09.899
Sigma okay

00:32:09.899 --> 00:32:12.179
but as head of state sworn to protect

00:32:12.179 --> 00:32:14.279
and defend my nation I cannot be guided

00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.679
by their examples alone

00:32:16.679 --> 00:32:20.520
uh blah blah blah Al-Qaeda cada all this

00:32:20.520 --> 00:32:25.159
stuff is up for grabs uh

00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.539
I raise this point I begin with this

00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:29.220
point because many countries there is a

00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:31.380
deep ambivalence about military action

00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:34.380
today no matter what the cause at times

00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:36.539
this is joined by a reflexive suspicion

00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:38.760
of America the world's sole military

00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:41.840
Powers this interesting justification

00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:44.100
and then he goes on to say America

00:32:44.100 --> 00:32:47.700
brought stability to the world

00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:50.399
um and that's an interesting uh

00:32:50.399 --> 00:32:52.980
perspective and

00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:55.039
um

00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:57.899
it comes down to

00:32:57.899 --> 00:32:59.899
um

00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:04.220
reconciling these two in seemingly

00:33:04.220 --> 00:33:06.120
irreconcilable truths that war is

00:33:06.120 --> 00:33:08.460
sometimes necessary and War at some

00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:11.700
levels an expression of human folly uh

00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:13.799
Kennedy said let us focus on more

00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:16.559
practical more attainable piece

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.960
uh based not on a sudden revolution in

00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.179
human nature but on a gradual evolution

00:33:21.179 --> 00:33:24.380
of human institutions

00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:27.080
uh gradual evolution of human

00:33:27.080 --> 00:33:30.179
institutions and then he goes on to say

00:33:30.179 --> 00:33:33.539
what this might not look like uh

00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.240
International standards

00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:37.919
um and then

00:33:37.919 --> 00:33:39.600
um you know he brings in this the world

00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:42.360
rallied around America after last 9-1-1

00:33:42.360 --> 00:33:44.460
attacks

00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:47.399
um which of course we

00:33:47.399 --> 00:33:51.000
um responded to with proportional Force

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:52.799
yeah

00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.840
um

00:33:54.840 --> 00:33:56.700
and

00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:00.539
um you talk about legitimacy so

00:34:00.539 --> 00:34:02.159
um

00:34:02.159 --> 00:34:04.880
America's commitment to Global Security

00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:09.179
uh whatever that means and

00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:12.800
um Peace entail requires responsibility

00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.540
and uh

00:34:15.540 --> 00:34:18.060
and peace and tail sacrifice again this

00:34:18.060 --> 00:34:21.359
is he's saying we have to justify peace

00:34:21.359 --> 00:34:25.280
as long as much as we have to justify or

00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.960
Guantanamo Bay

00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:28.139
um

00:34:28.139 --> 00:34:29.520
[Music]

00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:31.800
the question that was ma'am way on our

00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.220
minds and horses we choose to wage war

00:34:34.220 --> 00:34:36.720
uh but now let me turn to our effort to

00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:39.359
avoid tragic choices and speak of three

00:34:39.359 --> 00:34:41.760
ways that we can build a just and

00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.580
Lasting peace this is a very interesting

00:34:44.580 --> 00:34:48.359
rhetorical device that there are peace

00:34:48.359 --> 00:34:50.399
there's peace that's not just and

00:34:50.399 --> 00:34:53.820
there's peace that's Justified

00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:55.980
um

00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.240
and he talks about accountability

00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:02.400
uh spread of nuclear weapons okay we get

00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.960
that

00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:05.460
um

00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:06.060
um

00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:10.020
the outliers I ran and North Korea

00:35:10.020 --> 00:35:11.160
um

00:35:11.160 --> 00:35:14.040
our problems and let's go through this

00:35:14.040 --> 00:35:16.740
uh

00:35:16.740 --> 00:35:18.960
talks about the tension between realists

00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.180
and idealists so that's again

00:35:21.180 --> 00:35:23.760
um the act the the idealists uh want

00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.980
peace at all costs perhaps and it's not

00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:28.079
justified

00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:29.480
um

00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.880
and uh only when Europe became free did

00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:36.300
it uh finally find peace and this is of

00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:38.240
course a justification system between

00:35:38.240 --> 00:35:42.839
democracy and uh peace uh which is an

00:35:42.839 --> 00:35:47.940
interesting uh justification C system

00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:49.680
um

00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:52.500
we won't go into that

00:35:52.500 --> 00:35:53.700
um

00:35:53.700 --> 00:35:56.640
and as we go

00:35:56.640 --> 00:35:58.320
um he talks about the way religion is

00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.859
used to justify the murder of ins

00:36:00.859 --> 00:36:03.359
innocence so he understands that there's

00:36:03.359 --> 00:36:04.980
problem with certain justification

00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:08.400
systems he can see that that

00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.700
justification system started Wars

00:36:11.700 --> 00:36:15.119
um and that's kind of but you know I

00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:16.859
mean it's a it's a speech he's not

00:36:16.859 --> 00:36:20.520
reflexive on it uh

00:36:20.520 --> 00:36:22.410
beautiful

00:36:22.410 --> 00:36:23.040
[Music]

00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:25.040
um

00:36:26.160 --> 00:36:30.900
so The Human Condition can be perfected

00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:32.820
um the non-violence practice where men

00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:34.440
like Gandhi and King may not have been

00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:36.420
practical or possible in every

00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:38.099
circumstance

00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:42.180
uh but the love they preach guide us

00:36:42.180 --> 00:36:46.800
um and in the end uh

00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.060
he just

00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.859
says let us reach for the world that

00:36:52.859 --> 00:36:55.200
ought to be that spark of the Divine

00:36:55.200 --> 00:37:00.300
that still sits within our souls

00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:01.680
um

00:37:01.680 --> 00:37:03.599
clear-eyed

00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.420
there will be war and still strive for

00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:07.680
peace

00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:09.540
we can do that for that as a story of

00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:12.300
human progress this was a big big

00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:15.859
progress it was a big constant

00:37:15.859 --> 00:37:20.280
justification system for Obama uh the

00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.000
Arca history is long but it it the but

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.420
it acts toward progress

00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:30.300
um that was something that he really

00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:33.300
really believed in and Justified a lot

00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:37.380
of stuff about well here we're at now

00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:39.420
the story of history is long but it

00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:42.180
bends toward progress

00:37:42.180 --> 00:37:43.859
so

00:37:43.859 --> 00:37:45.740
um are there any

00:37:45.740 --> 00:37:48.240
comments first on this before we go into

00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:51.200
the breakout groups

00:37:54.240 --> 00:37:56.220
did you does that open a different

00:37:56.220 --> 00:37:59.420
perspective too

00:38:17.240 --> 00:38:19.740
yeah I would like to make the comment

00:38:19.740 --> 00:38:21.960
and make a request that

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.060
if something like

00:38:24.060 --> 00:38:26.579
um this is to be discussed again could

00:38:26.579 --> 00:38:28.619
we have it before

00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:31.560
and could we like I would have liked

00:38:31.560 --> 00:38:34.619
access to the speech beforehand

00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.380
um partly because of the way I am but

00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:41.460
also I don't live in America it's not my

00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:44.339
perspective I can see already how my

00:38:44.339 --> 00:38:47.579
perspective is and was on Obama getting

00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:49.020
the Peace Prize

00:38:49.020 --> 00:38:51.960
so I think it's going to be I'm sure

00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:55.339
I've made a few notes so I can have some

00:38:55.339 --> 00:38:58.140
Focus going in but it depends what your

00:38:58.140 --> 00:39:00.359
question is going to be for us as well

00:39:00.359 --> 00:39:03.900
yeah I I think it's it's certainly I

00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:06.300
should be able to do that but I came up

00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:08.339
with the idea I was thinking about this

00:39:08.339 --> 00:39:10.020
course all day

00:39:10.020 --> 00:39:13.320
and and I wasn't even looking for that I

00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:15.060
don't how did it come

00:39:15.060 --> 00:39:17.900
like like

00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:21.240
I don't know and then it then then I'm

00:39:21.240 --> 00:39:23.280
like yeah that speech what did he say in

00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.079
that speech and I got really fascinated

00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:26.940
with it so I'm sorry I'm sorry about

00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:28.260
that

00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:29.300
um

00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:32.460
but you're absolutely right if I had had

00:39:32.460 --> 00:39:36.240
this this this one session this designed

00:39:36.240 --> 00:39:37.040
better

00:39:37.040 --> 00:39:39.780
if that happens I should send it along

00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:42.060
beforehand like it would have been great

00:39:42.060 --> 00:39:45.240
as a footnote in the chorus content you

00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:48.660
know look at this or look at this video

00:39:48.660 --> 00:39:50.640
and it will be interesting to see what

00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:53.400
happens as a result of not doing that I

00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:55.020
mean yeah because we're not going to

00:39:55.020 --> 00:39:57.060
talk about that so much unless you want

00:39:57.060 --> 00:39:58.800
to look at it and talk about it I don't

00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.260
think I have it even I got David how

00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:03.540
many Americans John

00:40:03.540 --> 00:40:08.359
barely qualifies Holly's an American

00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:11.400
um so we don't want to limit it to that

00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:13.920
and I do understand that there's less of

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.280
a hook if you're Australian certainly

00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:18.780
um but you could think about the

00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:22.260
Ukrainian huh

00:40:23.339 --> 00:40:26.760
not Australian New Zealand New Zealand I

00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:28.619
know that's even better

00:40:28.619 --> 00:40:30.780
a lot even less of a but think about

00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:32.579
Ukraine and Russia

00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:35.220
and how easily we get sucked into the

00:40:35.220 --> 00:40:36.839
rhetoric

00:40:36.839 --> 00:40:39.839
um do you get sucked into that one that

00:40:39.839 --> 00:40:44.460
one's closer to your to you yeah so so

00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:46.579
um

00:40:46.680 --> 00:40:48.180
so

00:40:48.180 --> 00:40:52.079
again the point is not to debate Ukraine

00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:56.339
and Russia or it's to get this like hit

00:40:56.339 --> 00:40:59.040
about how big the justification system

00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:00.540
is and how much

00:41:00.540 --> 00:41:02.700
we are under its weight

00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:06.540
and how much it precludes us from doing

00:41:06.540 --> 00:41:08.400
something else I don't know what that

00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:10.380
something else is

00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:11.520
um

00:41:11.520 --> 00:41:16.079
um but uh but for me it's like okay we

00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:17.820
have let's just use Greg's terms because

00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:19.260
I want to ask him this you have mined

00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:21.300
one in mine too anything is

00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:23.339
justification system what if you could

00:41:23.339 --> 00:41:25.560
have mined one in mine too and then mine

00:41:25.560 --> 00:41:27.960
too did something different or maybe

00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:32.220
mind one did something different right

00:41:32.220 --> 00:41:34.079
so

00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:37.200
um yeah so

00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:40.140
so being aware I think of the

00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:42.780
justification system at this level

00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:48.060
makes you less like prone to amplify the

00:41:48.060 --> 00:41:51.980
polarities that it happens or to really

00:41:51.980 --> 00:41:57.420
try to be patient with analyzing the

00:41:57.420 --> 00:41:58.340
situation

00:41:58.340 --> 00:41:59.640
[Music]

00:41:59.640 --> 00:42:02.579
um but now did somebody else so does

00:42:02.579 --> 00:42:06.240
everybody understand uh

00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:08.520
that there's this justification thing

00:42:08.520 --> 00:42:10.920
happening in Obama's speech

00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:13.320
like when I first used to hear them I'd

00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:14.760
be like

00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:17.370
you know he was

00:42:17.370 --> 00:42:18.900
[Music]

00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:20.940
anyways all right so that's the

00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:22.260
justification system are there any

00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.960
questions about that what that

00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:28.440
represents when we took time to look

00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:32.599
uh uh Obama speech

00:42:33.660 --> 00:42:37.040
hold on one second

00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:47.760
I have a question for everyone here

00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:48.530
which is

00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:48.960
[Music]

00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:50.160
um

00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:53.160
if anyone has resources on rhetoric or

00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:56.099
or rhetorical magic or or ways of kind

00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:57.540
of okay

00:42:57.540 --> 00:43:01.140
analyzing what just happened

00:43:01.140 --> 00:43:03.260
um

00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:05.760
if you did

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:07.920
you're muted here

00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:11.780
oh okay I muted myself

00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:17.420
now you're Frozen

00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:20.819
can you hear me yeah you're a little

00:43:20.819 --> 00:43:23.000
Frozen

00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:27.660
the question is more on resources around

00:43:27.660 --> 00:43:30.780
um rhetoric and understanding rhetoric

00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:33.180
and what are the rhetorical tactics and

00:43:33.180 --> 00:43:35.099
the the mechanism of what's actually

00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:37.020
going on if anyone has any resources

00:43:37.020 --> 00:43:40.859
around that I would love that to study

00:43:40.859 --> 00:43:42.839
yeah this is an excellent question

00:43:42.839 --> 00:43:47.460
because before Socrates these things

00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:48.839
were

00:43:48.839 --> 00:43:51.420
based not on justification systems but

00:43:51.420 --> 00:43:53.040
rhetoric

00:43:53.040 --> 00:43:54.839
in other words

00:43:54.839 --> 00:43:58.380
it was kind of a martial arts the art of

00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:00.980
persuasion

00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.880
so and then Socrates says no we need to

00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:08.880
understand these terms and with the with

00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:11.280
once we know the truth of the terms we

00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:15.240
can build justification systems on them

00:44:15.240 --> 00:44:18.359
and so this is a question this is

00:44:18.359 --> 00:44:19.980
something I was thinking about myself

00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:21.480
like

00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:23.339
is there

00:44:23.339 --> 00:44:25.440
when I talk about language as an action

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:29.640
protocol I don't need to justify

00:44:29.640 --> 00:44:32.220
whose writer is wrong can I say

00:44:32.220 --> 00:44:34.380
something so there's less war and more

00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:35.940
peace

00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:39.240
can I just say something so that they're

00:44:39.240 --> 00:44:42.119
not justify it but can I do something

00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:43.940
with language

00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:47.720
so that there's more

00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:51.119
chance to be peace and less chance to be

00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:52.760
warm

00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:54.780
and that would be something like

00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:56.700
rhetoric but different than it was

00:44:56.700 --> 00:44:58.940
before

00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:16.859
I'm wondering what Bonnie's doing with

00:45:16.859 --> 00:45:18.780
her voice right now to make sure there's

00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:20.579
an animal peace

00:45:20.579 --> 00:45:22.619
no the tree workers are asking a

00:45:22.619 --> 00:45:26.780
question oh sorry

00:45:29.160 --> 00:45:32.160
so that's a great question Aaron that

00:45:32.160 --> 00:45:33.900
would be

00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:37.079
like moving not moving backwards but it

00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.079
would be something more like

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:43.079
I'll be happy if I can persuade you to

00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:45.960
do less fighting and more peacemaking

00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:48.780
and not worry about

00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:54.200
the superordinate justification of that

00:45:58.579 --> 00:46:01.260
now that could take the form of art

00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:04.140
something something between rhetoric and

00:46:04.140 --> 00:46:06.599
art and of course the early rhetorics

00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.240
they they were on stage and it was like

00:46:09.240 --> 00:46:14.099
theater right so art could play

00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:16.200
that could could create that kind of

00:46:16.200 --> 00:46:20.900
action without having to justify itself

00:46:26.099 --> 00:46:28.680
any other questions we're going to go in

00:46:28.680 --> 00:46:30.960
uh

00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.660
let's see we'll go for 50 minutes we'll

00:46:33.660 --> 00:46:36.619
go to yeah

00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:38.160
40 minutes

00:46:38.160 --> 00:46:40.079
go to the bottom the hour and the

00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:42.619
breakout group

00:46:42.839 --> 00:46:46.500
okay so I think everyone here has done a

00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:47.160
little

00:46:47.160 --> 00:46:48.660
um maybe not everyone

00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:50.700
um ins we're gonna do a breakout group

00:46:50.700 --> 00:46:53.099
Collective Insight practice

00:46:53.099 --> 00:46:57.000
and what we want to do is

00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:01.440
stare at this

00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.800
question of war and conflict just stare

00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:07.440
at it so in other words we presence it

00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.140
and we know there's a lot we might bring

00:47:10.140 --> 00:47:12.720
up a lot of churning and yearning and

00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:15.619
stuff in our body

00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:21.250
um and we are attempting to

00:47:21.250 --> 00:47:21.780
[Music]

00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:23.160
um

00:47:23.160 --> 00:47:27.540
tolerate whatever our bodily stake is

00:47:27.540 --> 00:47:31.020
but keep attending to it's not really a

00:47:31.020 --> 00:47:34.200
question but this whole thing about war

00:47:34.200 --> 00:47:35.339
and

00:47:35.339 --> 00:47:38.280
human at War and and some of the stuff

00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:41.460
that was on the table in that speech in

00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:44.819
Ukraine and this and that and let that

00:47:44.819 --> 00:47:47.300
kind of

00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:52.319
irritates you in many different ways but

00:47:52.319 --> 00:47:54.900
what we're looking for is not to talk

00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:57.720
about what's happening in our body

00:47:57.720 --> 00:48:00.000
because that will collapse the energy

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:03.720
that is necessary for insight

00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:06.920
try not even to label it

00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:11.280
which is okay but if you just let it

00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:14.339
do what it's doing

00:48:14.339 --> 00:48:17.880
that movement of energy is the body's

00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:20.640
way of thinking

00:48:20.640 --> 00:48:22.560
because there's nothing really happening

00:48:22.560 --> 00:48:24.180
if somebody walked into the room and

00:48:24.180 --> 00:48:25.859
slapped you in the face you'd get angry

00:48:25.859 --> 00:48:27.359
and that would be because you're angry

00:48:27.359 --> 00:48:30.060
but you might go through anger and fear

00:48:30.060 --> 00:48:31.800
and sadness and grief

00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.680
but this is the body's way of thinking

00:48:34.680 --> 00:48:36.480
through

00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.119
this open question that you have and

00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:41.640
what you're looking for is an image to

00:48:41.640 --> 00:48:43.440
come into your mind

00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:47.640
and it could seem irrelevance

00:48:47.640 --> 00:48:53.280
you might see I just saw a stink bug bug

00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:56.720
on a little branch

00:48:56.819 --> 00:49:00.119
so I would say I see a stink bug on the

00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:02.660
little branch

00:49:04.020 --> 00:49:05.460
moment

00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:07.920
and then someone else might see

00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.200
something in that image that you're

00:49:10.200 --> 00:49:12.780
building or not and with Collective

00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:16.140
Insight practice there's a lot often

00:49:16.140 --> 00:49:18.060
quite a lot of Silence because we're

00:49:18.060 --> 00:49:23.160
waiting for an image now I say image it

00:49:23.160 --> 00:49:26.460
could also be I taste something uh wow

00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:27.599
it's like

00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.780
wind or something

00:49:30.780 --> 00:49:32.220
um

00:49:32.220 --> 00:49:34.680
and if we were all together we could or

00:49:34.680 --> 00:49:37.800
if we were that AI we could be putting

00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.920
all these images up and then we stand

00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.960
back and look at it and say what what is

00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:47.040
it what is this saying to us

00:49:47.040 --> 00:49:49.160
um

00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.980
so does everyone understand the prompt

00:49:55.980 --> 00:49:58.860
we're just looking at this question of

00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:00.839
[Music]

00:50:00.839 --> 00:50:04.079
War there seems to be I agree with Obama

00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.900
in a certain there seems to be no end to

00:50:06.900 --> 00:50:09.300
it I don't believe Russia and Ukraine

00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:11.760
are the last ones by far there's no

00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:16.160
there seems to be no end to it

00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:21.720
foreign

00:50:22.319 --> 00:50:26.180
okay so go for 50 minutes

00:50:37.560 --> 00:50:40.200
yeah resist the temptation to get into a

00:50:40.200 --> 00:50:42.720
conversation when we come back we will

00:50:42.720 --> 00:50:45.119
use we'll use all that energy that's

00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:48.119
piled up to share okay

00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.500
really sit with this

00:51:27.839 --> 00:51:30.839
foreign

00:53:00.720 --> 00:53:03.380
work

00:53:30.660 --> 00:53:32.660
s

00:53:40.700 --> 00:53:46.380
okay let's get our sharing energy on

00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:50.520
um I did put in the chat a link to a

00:53:50.520 --> 00:53:55.280
article by bio Akama latte

00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:00.420
which is an example of someone trying to

00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:02.760
it's it's a it's called black lives

00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:07.380
matter but to whom so he's entering very

00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:08.960
tricky

00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.780
conversation and you can yeah I'm

00:54:12.780 --> 00:54:14.880
recording thank you very much

00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:18.079
excellent keep keep

00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:21.260
prompting me

00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:25.140
um it's an excellent example of the

00:54:25.140 --> 00:54:28.380
opposite of someone trying to do

00:54:28.380 --> 00:54:30.059
something different

00:54:30.059 --> 00:54:33.119
entering a Hot Topic and trying to do

00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:35.099
something different

00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:36.960
um so

00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:39.059
um if you want to just check can you see

00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:42.599
that chat link if oh no because when

00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.780
you're in the when you're in the um

00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:47.819
breakout rooms

00:54:47.819 --> 00:54:50.280
it doesn't

00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:53.660
let you see that okay so there's another

00:54:53.660 --> 00:54:56.160
article which

00:54:56.160 --> 00:54:58.680
uh is an interesting compare and

00:54:58.680 --> 00:55:00.480
contrast

00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:03.720
um about with someone who's trying to

00:55:03.720 --> 00:55:05.480
take on a

00:55:05.480 --> 00:55:07.740
controversial virtual topic and trying

00:55:07.740 --> 00:55:10.760
to do something different

00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:18.260
okay let's share

00:55:56.220 --> 00:56:00.180
I found it really really hard today to

00:56:00.180 --> 00:56:03.020
keep my

00:56:03.660 --> 00:56:06.599
desire to share what I was feeling

00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:08.460
suppressed

00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:10.740
and

00:56:10.740 --> 00:56:13.380
mostly succeeded but it was still in my

00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:15.500
head

00:56:17.640 --> 00:56:19.980
let me ask you a question but did you

00:56:19.980 --> 00:56:22.559
feel like

00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:24.660
depending on how how much effort that

00:56:24.660 --> 00:56:26.760
was did you feel like

00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:29.700
and yet you were making progress on the

00:56:29.700 --> 00:56:31.559
inquiry yeah

00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:33.839
so when we all just came back and no one

00:56:33.839 --> 00:56:37.920
had anything to say I just very powerful

00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:40.920
feeling that weren't all making progress

00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:43.880
on the inquiry

00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:50.520
so you wanna you wanna put that memory

00:56:50.520 --> 00:56:55.619
that's memory of that in your awareness

00:56:55.619 --> 00:56:57.359
um

00:56:57.359 --> 00:56:59.520
it's an I don't know how to explain it

00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:02.819
it's it's it but it's very very it's got

00:57:02.819 --> 00:57:07.140
a very very discreet signature so

00:57:07.140 --> 00:57:09.200
um

00:57:19.020 --> 00:57:21.859
yeah thanks

00:57:22.619 --> 00:57:24.800
thank you

00:57:34.020 --> 00:57:35.760
it's interesting that word progress

00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.160
because it it almost feels like an

00:57:38.160 --> 00:57:40.680
undoing as well like it's hitting

00:57:40.680 --> 00:57:44.359
something very human and humane

00:57:44.359 --> 00:57:46.859
moving us really out of our

00:57:46.859 --> 00:57:50.760
mind and into something

00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:54.020
deeper in source

00:57:57.540 --> 00:57:59.460
so one of the signatures not only the

00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:00.900
inhibition

00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:04.380
it's like everything airs that arises

00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:07.520
through the inhibition

00:58:16.500 --> 00:58:18.720
can you say that again you're very soft

00:58:18.720 --> 00:58:21.140
so I'm gonna put it right here

00:58:21.140 --> 00:58:24.240
yeah I just I don't know like

00:58:24.240 --> 00:58:26.099
to understand the signature and the body

00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:29.099
reference then I got the sense of okay

00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:31.559
what mainly I was doing is inhibiting

00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:34.740
the Body Sensations on my camera just

00:58:34.740 --> 00:58:36.500
went off

00:58:36.500 --> 00:58:39.660
and and then the signature you were

00:58:39.660 --> 00:58:41.040
saying was curious is this then

00:58:41.040 --> 00:58:42.780
something that arises out of the

00:58:42.780 --> 00:58:45.240
inhibition

00:58:45.240 --> 00:58:47.280
now we have to be careful with language

00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:50.040
here so we don't want to inhibit the

00:58:50.040 --> 00:58:53.400
bodily Sensations we don't want to label

00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:56.540
or share them

00:58:56.819 --> 00:59:00.359
we want them to brew and brew and brew

00:59:00.359 --> 00:59:01.799
and

00:59:01.799 --> 00:59:04.619
get more extreme

00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:06.420
so we're not trying to inhibit them

00:59:06.420 --> 00:59:08.460
we're not trying to be like cool

00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:10.079
cucumbers

00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:13.140
we're keeping our eyes

00:59:13.140 --> 00:59:15.420
so yes we're saying the same thing right

00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:17.240
yeah

00:59:17.240 --> 00:59:21.299
the the arousal but uh yeah just like

00:59:21.299 --> 00:59:24.299
like the tendency to justify the arousal

00:59:24.299 --> 00:59:27.839
like exactly awesome

00:59:27.839 --> 00:59:30.780
yeah and yes

00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:32.819
and that's the signature now did you

00:59:32.819 --> 00:59:35.760
feel that okay this word progress is

00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:39.559
weird but did you feel that something

00:59:39.559 --> 00:59:42.599
about the situation was being carried

00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:44.220
forward quiet

00:59:44.220 --> 00:59:46.579
oh

00:59:46.579 --> 00:59:50.240
like you were getting

00:59:54.299 --> 00:59:57.180
like even though you we had to spend

00:59:57.180 --> 00:59:59.940
time not

00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:02.640
what I call collapsing the energy by

01:00:02.640 --> 01:00:06.920
talking about it did you feel that

01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:10.020
it was in service to the inquiry of the

01:00:10.020 --> 01:00:13.640
question in some strange way

01:00:13.980 --> 01:00:16.799
yeah

01:00:16.799 --> 01:00:18.359
I think I really got a sense at one

01:00:18.359 --> 01:00:20.460
point like when you talk about the

01:00:20.460 --> 01:00:22.079
effect directly

01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.359
because you said that it collapses the

01:00:24.359 --> 01:00:27.660
energy and whatever else can make Life

01:00:27.660 --> 01:00:30.119
come out of it I think I got that

01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:33.859
somewhere that was interesting

01:00:34.020 --> 01:00:36.299
yeah and that's what we want to feel

01:00:36.299 --> 01:00:41.839
like like not that somehow this

01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:43.619
this

01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:46.520
Brewing

01:00:51.720 --> 01:00:55.520
is the energy of insight

01:00:55.859 --> 01:00:57.980
um

01:00:58.140 --> 01:01:01.380
but if you look at it a certain way

01:01:01.380 --> 01:01:05.000
you want to

01:01:06.839 --> 01:01:08.520
you know because we're just thinking

01:01:08.520 --> 01:01:10.920
about them question and we want some

01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:12.960
insight and you're like what is it what

01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:15.540
is it and then

01:01:15.540 --> 01:01:18.480
your body's going to respond and as the

01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:19.920
energy comes up it's going to say well

01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.200
should I go into anger or should I go

01:01:22.200 --> 01:01:25.760
into curiosity or should I it's it it's

01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:29.640
default is to try these things at first

01:01:29.640 --> 01:01:31.980
and then it starts to slow down and

01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:34.579
becomes

01:01:36.180 --> 01:01:39.740
a reasoning power

01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:42.660
um

01:01:42.660 --> 01:01:45.240
yeah so something something like that so

01:01:45.240 --> 01:01:47.220
it could at first it could it feel more

01:01:47.220 --> 01:01:51.480
like all these reactions you know

01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:53.099
um but

01:01:53.099 --> 01:01:55.260
if you don't go there and justify them

01:01:55.260 --> 01:01:56.880
then it's saying no it's not quite that

01:01:56.880 --> 01:01:59.240
it's not quite fear it's not quite grief

01:01:59.240 --> 01:02:02.700
I'm not doing that that's not what I

01:02:02.700 --> 01:02:05.760
want an image but I want a perspective

01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.400
title shift I want to Insight

01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:11.400
and then that it just slow this gets

01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:13.260
more and more energetic but less and

01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:16.619
less like one of these affects

01:02:16.619 --> 01:02:18.780
and it just becomes the energy of

01:02:18.780 --> 01:02:21.680
insight

01:02:25.319 --> 01:02:27.359
yeah I kind of felt like a rooting

01:02:27.359 --> 01:02:30.599
simultaneously rooting deepening as well

01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:32.579
as an expansion so it was like rooting

01:02:32.579 --> 01:02:34.859
and branching

01:02:34.859 --> 01:02:37.020
um simultaneously

01:02:37.020 --> 01:02:40.319
exactly and the deeper you can rule the

01:02:40.319 --> 01:02:42.839
more expansive your ideation can be

01:02:42.839 --> 01:02:45.420
without dissociating right because if

01:02:45.420 --> 01:02:47.460
you dissociate then it just turns into

01:02:47.460 --> 01:02:51.140
fantasy because you're not like

01:02:57.180 --> 01:02:59.339
yeah my experience is that my body is

01:02:59.339 --> 01:03:04.079
kind of trying on the images that are

01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:08.940
being it's like I find myself in this

01:03:08.940 --> 01:03:10.680
imaginal I don't know if the imaginals

01:03:10.680 --> 01:03:12.420
the right word but in the space that's

01:03:12.420 --> 01:03:15.180
being proposed my interpretation of it

01:03:15.180 --> 01:03:16.619
and it's like what what does it feel

01:03:16.619 --> 01:03:19.619
like to be in the Sun or to be a giant

01:03:19.619 --> 01:03:22.140
rock on a desert like

01:03:22.140 --> 01:03:24.059
it's not an inquiry that I'm going

01:03:24.059 --> 01:03:27.599
through but my body is just taking on

01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:30.240
the image and then something arises from

01:03:30.240 --> 01:03:32.420
there

01:03:32.819 --> 01:03:36.859
and this is how Einstein

01:03:38.640 --> 01:03:41.400
he's like what is it like to be an

01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:44.520
elevator it's like being in gravity

01:03:44.520 --> 01:03:46.040
see

01:03:46.040 --> 01:03:49.500
this is how the body reasons it it puts

01:03:49.500 --> 01:03:52.020
itself in

01:03:52.020 --> 01:03:55.579
yeah exactly

01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:58.619
I keep looking at the two images of the

01:03:58.619 --> 01:04:00.960
birds behind Susan and I'm trying with

01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:02.280
my body to work out which one's peace

01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:04.020
and which one's warmer

01:04:04.020 --> 01:04:05.520
I think

01:04:05.520 --> 01:04:08.690
[Music]

01:04:12.680 --> 01:04:16.740
yeah sometimes it's not in virtual image

01:04:16.740 --> 01:04:18.720
sometimes you just notice you get

01:04:18.720 --> 01:04:21.780
fascinated by

01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:23.160
okay

01:04:23.160 --> 01:04:25.980
you know you can you can pick up like

01:04:25.980 --> 01:04:28.740
I'm just all of a sudden fascinated by

01:04:28.740 --> 01:04:31.040
something

01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:33.599
that's in my environment it becomes what

01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:38.339
we call last time a significant object

01:04:38.339 --> 01:04:40.460
um

01:04:45.240 --> 01:04:48.480
yeah I also want to note that like

01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:50.540
um

01:04:50.579 --> 01:04:52.440
we sort of talked about

01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:55.079
how part of the problem with our world

01:04:55.079 --> 01:04:57.960
is a lack of intimacy and I don't know

01:04:57.960 --> 01:04:59.460
if we figured out War and Peace or

01:04:59.460 --> 01:05:00.900
anything like that but

01:05:00.900 --> 01:05:04.559
there was something so intimate building

01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:07.020
of intimacy in that exercise

01:05:07.020 --> 01:05:09.359
um it almost changed the question

01:05:09.359 --> 01:05:12.559
actually in a way

01:05:18.059 --> 01:05:21.540
yeah and I was with Holly and David and

01:05:21.540 --> 01:05:24.540
John L's iPad

01:05:24.540 --> 01:05:26.599
um

01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:32.940
but that's beautiful you said honey

01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:36.000
because that was how I felt is

01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:40.160
that even the word War

01:05:40.520 --> 01:05:43.559
was being

01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:46.260
it got light or it got a different

01:05:46.260 --> 01:05:48.839
meaning because there's an allowing of

01:05:48.839 --> 01:05:51.359
going into a space where you can't go by

01:05:51.359 --> 01:05:53.819
yourself it's almost like I'm we need

01:05:53.819 --> 01:05:57.299
one another to see more and hold more

01:05:57.299 --> 01:05:59.819
it's like we had we talked about the

01:05:59.819 --> 01:06:01.619
cosmic umbilical cord

01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:04.380
and it's it's like allowing to jump into

01:06:04.380 --> 01:06:06.660
that space of the unknown and knowing

01:06:06.660 --> 01:06:09.119
that you're being held like to have

01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:11.900
resort to I don't know I saw two hands

01:06:11.900 --> 01:06:15.119
and then the wound and then there's like

01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:18.180
the umbilical cord that allows that to

01:06:18.180 --> 01:06:20.579
do that with one another and but also

01:06:20.579 --> 01:06:21.960
being vulnerable

01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:25.859
and just show up and allow what wants to

01:06:25.859 --> 01:06:28.680
be moved energetically in that moment to

01:06:28.680 --> 01:06:31.740
to express that without

01:06:31.740 --> 01:06:33.180
or whatever I don't know there's no

01:06:33.180 --> 01:06:36.000
Widow whatever shows up it's okay and

01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:38.640
it's like it's constantly moving there's

01:06:38.640 --> 01:06:41.720
something moving

01:06:42.180 --> 01:06:44.160
and I know that I didn't say it right

01:06:44.160 --> 01:06:45.599
there's so much more that wants to be

01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:47.700
spoken to but I can't capture it so

01:06:47.700 --> 01:06:51.920
maybe Dave can share something as well

01:06:52.680 --> 01:06:55.200
well talking about intimacy we both

01:06:55.200 --> 01:06:59.339
unmuted at exactly the same time so

01:06:59.339 --> 01:07:00.960
um

01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:04.980
I love what Holly said about

01:07:04.980 --> 01:07:07.740
I feel that

01:07:07.740 --> 01:07:12.059
more rooted and grounded in

01:07:12.059 --> 01:07:15.839
there is no end to it

01:07:15.839 --> 01:07:21.420
and I also can relate to what Aaron said

01:07:21.420 --> 01:07:24.900
about letting

01:07:24.900 --> 01:07:28.380
this what I call poetry

01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:29.819
in

01:07:29.819 --> 01:07:32.960
and looking and continuing to search

01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:37.020
letting it in and continuing to search

01:07:37.020 --> 01:07:40.500
and I feel softer

01:07:40.500 --> 01:07:46.020
around there's no end to conflict

01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:51.599
of course I was with

01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:54.900
Ollie and Anna so

01:07:54.900 --> 01:07:58.200
there's kind of like being inside a box

01:07:58.200 --> 01:08:00.539
of candy when you're with the two of

01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:02.660
them

01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:08.539
thank you

01:08:38.699 --> 01:08:40.859
and there's something else that arises

01:08:40.859 --> 01:08:44.100
it's like an by being in the space

01:08:44.100 --> 01:08:45.179
together

01:08:45.179 --> 01:08:47.580
there's like a potentiality for

01:08:47.580 --> 01:08:49.739
unlocking the blocked energies that I

01:08:49.739 --> 01:08:52.739
can't see or access myself is like a

01:08:52.739 --> 01:08:55.259
collective healing through each other's

01:08:55.259 --> 01:08:58.020
witnessing or through wording or and and

01:08:58.020 --> 01:08:59.279
that was like

01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:01.020
ah

01:09:01.020 --> 01:09:04.140
okay and what David said or Holly said

01:09:04.140 --> 01:09:07.140
or John said even John was unmuted while

01:09:07.140 --> 01:09:10.679
he had to go away and and Holly included

01:09:10.679 --> 01:09:13.020
what John said and that was perfect that

01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:14.339
was just perfect

01:09:14.339 --> 01:09:17.279
and and just those coincidences that are

01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:21.000
happening can I trust them more

01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:23.480
why why is my mind blocking those

01:09:23.480 --> 01:09:27.060
coincidences and just stays with the my

01:09:27.060 --> 01:09:29.640
own while actually was happening is

01:09:29.640 --> 01:09:31.620
actually what's happening and

01:09:31.620 --> 01:09:34.259
can I include more of that so

01:09:34.259 --> 01:09:35.460
yeah

01:09:35.460 --> 01:09:37.440
and that's why we call a possibility

01:09:37.440 --> 01:09:41.060
landscape you're literally

01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.859
walking through something

01:10:09.020 --> 01:10:13.440
yeah one of the things that um oh I was

01:10:13.440 --> 01:10:16.560
with Charlie and I was with Aaron and

01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:18.000
tolston

01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:20.120
um

01:10:20.520 --> 01:10:24.060
and gratitude for that it was cool

01:10:24.060 --> 01:10:25.380
um

01:10:25.380 --> 01:10:28.020
one of the things I noticed this time

01:10:28.020 --> 01:10:31.380
that I didn't notice last time I was in

01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:32.340
a group

01:10:32.340 --> 01:10:33.600
was

01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:39.239
no it's not opposites but the image and

01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:42.080
the languaging of the image

01:10:42.080 --> 01:10:45.659
almost held I don't use the word

01:10:45.659 --> 01:10:47.460
opposites they weren't opposites they

01:10:47.460 --> 01:10:48.600
were

01:10:48.600 --> 01:10:51.060
how could those two things

01:10:51.060 --> 01:10:53.760
or three things all be together it was

01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:56.820
like what the is this what is happening

01:10:56.820 --> 01:10:57.719
here

01:10:57.719 --> 01:11:00.060
and to hold those

01:11:00.060 --> 01:11:05.239
it was fun but it was very different

01:11:12.900 --> 01:11:15.480
yeah that's a big Insight because it's

01:11:15.480 --> 01:11:18.480
beyond you'll hear a lot of uh

01:11:18.480 --> 01:11:21.360
people say that

01:11:21.360 --> 01:11:23.520
you know developmental stage series that

01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.560
you can hold paradox

01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:27.060
but

01:11:27.060 --> 01:11:29.100
what you're saying is they're not

01:11:29.100 --> 01:11:31.800
they're not there as a paradox they Co

01:11:31.800 --> 01:11:33.780
they just coexist in the space and it's

01:11:33.780 --> 01:11:36.420
just taken as

01:11:36.420 --> 01:11:38.900
ha

01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:42.900
could be a surprise right like like

01:11:42.900 --> 01:11:46.260
when you see you know those fish that

01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:47.520
swimming

01:11:47.520 --> 01:11:50.460
Guppies mouths to clean their teeth it's

01:11:50.460 --> 01:11:52.380
a surprise like hot why doesn't he he

01:11:52.380 --> 01:11:54.960
you know it's like oh gee why doesn't he

01:11:54.960 --> 01:11:56.520
eat that

01:11:56.520 --> 01:11:58.560
and it's kind of like the same thing

01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:00.420
we're trying to relate to these things

01:12:00.420 --> 01:12:03.360
in the same way like this is a landscape

01:12:03.360 --> 01:12:05.280
and this is something I haven't seen

01:12:05.280 --> 01:12:08.340
before gee let me look at that versus up

01:12:08.340 --> 01:12:11.820
this is a paradox and leads to aporia

01:12:11.820 --> 01:12:14.940
whatever it's just

01:12:14.940 --> 01:12:18.480
these are in the same space together

01:12:18.480 --> 01:12:22.020
let me watch that you know so I think

01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:23.820
that's how you

01:12:23.820 --> 01:12:26.520
the way you should made me realize that

01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:29.580
that's also how you were noticing it you

01:12:29.580 --> 01:12:31.140
just notice

01:12:31.140 --> 01:12:34.140
they're in the same space together

01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:36.360
let's watch them

01:12:36.360 --> 01:12:40.280
so surprises there's a certain surprise

01:12:40.280 --> 01:12:43.620
right uh

01:12:43.620 --> 01:12:45.719
but it's not like

01:12:45.719 --> 01:12:49.080
this mental tension of holding Paradox

01:12:49.080 --> 01:12:51.480
even as Ian mcgilchrist says like you

01:12:51.480 --> 01:12:53.940
know Paradox and polarities it's

01:12:53.940 --> 01:12:56.840
different than that

01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:03.060
so I have no clue what we're doing

01:13:03.060 --> 01:13:05.219
because it was the first time for me but

01:13:05.219 --> 01:13:07.920
what I found interesting is we're

01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:09.360
starting with very different pictures

01:13:09.360 --> 01:13:11.699
and it seemed to converge to a more

01:13:11.699 --> 01:13:14.640
let's say in comparison to later stage

01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:17.280
than darker stuff and they all converge

01:13:17.280 --> 01:13:19.380
to more darker patterns and then there

01:13:19.380 --> 01:13:21.719
was a turning point and some suddenly

01:13:21.719 --> 01:13:24.179
the light got in and all the pictures

01:13:24.179 --> 01:13:26.699
sort of move to more positive more

01:13:26.699 --> 01:13:30.600
lively more potentiality and really

01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:33.000
fascinating for like maybe half half or

01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:35.400
so I wonder what the turning point was I

01:13:35.400 --> 01:13:37.640
don't know

01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:44.760
did you notice there's a natural rhythm

01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:49.280
of when people speak take turns

01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:56.520
or did you notice was was like

01:13:56.520 --> 01:13:59.880
popcorn or people jumping on each other

01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:03.300
or was it space spaced out in a certain

01:14:03.300 --> 01:14:05.520
way

01:14:05.520 --> 01:14:09.600
ours was very very spacious yeah

01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:10.800
yeah

01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:13.440
so this is also the difference between

01:14:13.440 --> 01:14:16.440
when people sit in circle and they share

01:14:16.440 --> 01:14:19.739
everybody is always like

01:14:19.739 --> 01:14:22.140
too quick to want to build on something

01:14:22.140 --> 01:14:25.020
or share and so we use a Talking Stick

01:14:25.020 --> 01:14:27.960
to like slow people down but when you're

01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:30.659
doing this work

01:14:30.659 --> 01:14:34.320
um it has this kind of natural Cadence a

01:14:34.320 --> 01:14:37.020
lot of spaciousness now what can happen

01:14:37.020 --> 01:14:39.140
is

01:14:39.140 --> 01:14:42.020
their my experiences

01:14:42.020 --> 01:14:44.880
people will be working and working and

01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:46.500
saying a couple of things and then all

01:14:46.500 --> 01:14:48.360
of a sudden

01:14:48.360 --> 01:14:51.000
like half the people see the same thing

01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:53.219
at the same time and go oh all at the

01:14:53.219 --> 01:14:56.340
same time and so then it kind of like

01:14:56.340 --> 01:14:59.340
the expression piles in on itself but it

01:14:59.340 --> 01:15:01.500
doesn't really need like if you have

01:15:01.500 --> 01:15:04.500
this other mode of relating it doesn't

01:15:04.500 --> 01:15:09.780
doesn't necessarily need a pacing stick

01:15:09.780 --> 01:15:11.460
and it was a great moment where Aaron

01:15:11.460 --> 01:15:13.440
and I had this very same picture the

01:15:13.440 --> 01:15:15.780
very same moment and he was talking I

01:15:15.780 --> 01:15:17.340
had it in my mind it was just like what

01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:20.820
so cool what's going on

01:15:20.820 --> 01:15:24.300
yeah that's that's a cool thing and can

01:15:24.300 --> 01:15:26.340
get extraordinary

01:15:26.340 --> 01:15:28.140
it did like what 50 minute little

01:15:28.140 --> 01:15:30.060
practice session and Torsten didn't even

01:15:30.060 --> 01:15:31.860
know what was going on but if you do

01:15:31.860 --> 01:15:32.760
like

01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:36.120
six months of in real life work on a

01:15:36.120 --> 01:15:37.679
problem

01:15:37.679 --> 01:15:40.920
um it it becomes like At first is the

01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:42.360
land then

01:15:42.360 --> 01:15:44.159
it's kind of like going through the

01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:48.300
jungle and nobody it's it nobody really

01:15:48.300 --> 01:15:50.340
knows where you are and you keep going

01:15:50.340 --> 01:15:55.340
and cutting and then when you see

01:15:56.280 --> 01:15:58.920
the shore everyone sees it at the same

01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:02.100
time right it's kind of like and that's

01:16:02.100 --> 01:16:04.860
that's quite often

01:16:04.860 --> 01:16:05.940
um

01:16:05.940 --> 01:16:09.920
yeah that's pretty common in this work

01:16:11.580 --> 01:16:13.560
at least for me what I found it was like

01:16:13.560 --> 01:16:15.900
the beginning and I thought from the

01:16:15.900 --> 01:16:17.340
pictures maybe with the others as well

01:16:17.340 --> 01:16:19.920
maybe they can share the beginning was

01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:22.500
more like churning through memories and

01:16:22.500 --> 01:16:25.980
stuff that was in my body and and then

01:16:25.980 --> 01:16:28.020
after the turning point it sort of went

01:16:28.020 --> 01:16:30.600
to a different space which was no longer

01:16:30.600 --> 01:16:33.600
related to my experience in in the past

01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:36.060
or the stories I'm connecting to it but

01:16:36.060 --> 01:16:39.179
to something very different and

01:16:39.179 --> 01:16:41.580
um that was quite fascinating and but it

01:16:41.580 --> 01:16:43.500
needed that churning phase in the

01:16:43.500 --> 01:16:46.199
beginning to get all that out and then

01:16:46.199 --> 01:16:50.480
something else emerged basically for me

01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:22.080
one more comment before we break my dogs

01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:24.719
have been really good they know it's two

01:17:24.719 --> 01:17:26.960
hours

01:17:49.860 --> 01:17:52.920
I'll just share the image that Orson and

01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:56.280
I kind of converged on which was of um

01:17:56.280 --> 01:17:58.620
a huge block

01:17:58.620 --> 01:17:59.880
Tower

01:17:59.880 --> 01:18:02.340
and the joy of knocking it over and also

01:18:02.340 --> 01:18:05.520
the ah like you knocked it over right

01:18:05.520 --> 01:18:07.980
and the joy of rebuilding it

01:18:07.980 --> 01:18:09.780
it kind of came from an Insight that

01:18:09.780 --> 01:18:12.480
Charlie had about the imbalance of how

01:18:12.480 --> 01:18:14.280
long it takes to build

01:18:14.280 --> 01:18:16.739
to um

01:18:16.739 --> 01:18:20.900
how easy and quick it is to destroy

01:18:20.940 --> 01:18:23.219
and it's to me that it's amazing how

01:18:23.219 --> 01:18:25.020
that that that image that experience

01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:27.719
really encapsulates

01:18:27.719 --> 01:18:30.719
the inquiry or the

01:18:30.719 --> 01:18:34.080
the thing we were diving into now just

01:18:34.080 --> 01:18:38.219
imagine if Barack Obama Obama had said

01:18:38.219 --> 01:18:42.060
the situation we face is how long it

01:18:42.060 --> 01:18:44.760
takes to build a nation

01:18:44.760 --> 01:18:45.960
oh

01:18:45.960 --> 01:18:48.540
and how little effort it takes to

01:18:48.540 --> 01:18:50.960
destroy

01:18:51.199 --> 01:18:55.440
you see what I'm saying

01:18:55.440 --> 01:18:57.659
you see what I'm saying it's not a

01:18:57.659 --> 01:19:00.320
justification

01:19:00.980 --> 01:19:04.980
it's very powerful now you almost

01:19:04.980 --> 01:19:07.760
forgive him

01:19:09.719 --> 01:19:13.620
you see what I'm saying here this way of

01:19:13.620 --> 01:19:16.500
doing this work

01:19:16.500 --> 01:19:20.000
extremely powerful

01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:24.020
and you guys I mean literally

01:19:24.020 --> 01:19:26.520
and you know I think we're building so

01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:28.860
much capacity over the years here that

01:19:28.860 --> 01:19:31.980
that this is this is amazing work

01:19:31.980 --> 01:19:34.699
yeah

01:19:34.860 --> 01:19:36.360
and

01:19:36.360 --> 01:19:39.060
um yeah check out those two links if you

01:19:39.060 --> 01:19:41.460
want to compare and contrast uh

01:19:41.460 --> 01:19:44.520
different things and uh yeah and we can

01:19:44.520 --> 01:19:47.159
continue to build on this when we as

01:19:47.159 --> 01:19:50.100
we're going to move into a recap and in

01:19:50.100 --> 01:19:51.719
the recap

01:19:51.719 --> 01:19:53.520
we'll really be able to put all this

01:19:53.520 --> 01:19:54.900
together

01:19:54.900 --> 01:19:57.780
Aaron thanks for the rhetorical magic

01:19:57.780 --> 01:20:00.659
you just shared with us

01:20:00.659 --> 01:20:05.460
ah you see you guys knew you said it and

01:20:05.460 --> 01:20:09.300
you enjoyed it but see then there's you

01:20:09.300 --> 01:20:10.920
see the power in it

01:20:10.920 --> 01:20:13.679
you don't always see the power in it at

01:20:13.679 --> 01:20:15.659
first when you're when you're in the

01:20:15.659 --> 01:20:18.739
space enjoying it

01:20:20.880 --> 01:20:23.460
okay my friends awesome and I recorded

01:20:23.460 --> 01:20:26.360
it this time which would have been yeah

01:20:26.360 --> 01:20:29.340
okay have a good day

01:20:29.340 --> 01:20:32.179
ah yeah