# Perception 2023 cohorts transcripts

## Cohort 1

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I love this computer

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um okay so we are closed captions

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awesome

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transcript enabled

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um

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so this is a the second module in this

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long series and it's on perception

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and

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of course we can you know we can talk

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about anything because

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you know one aspect of Human Experience

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bleeds into another so that's okay but I

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just want us to make sure what we mean

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by perception we're still at this

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sensory motor level

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right so what can you see with your eyes

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and your ears and smell and taste and

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part of this experience is to notice how

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quickly that bleeds into out of the the

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sensory motor perception and into

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virtual what we call virtual perception

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so thoughts okay and so we there'll be

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the same kind of slippery slope between

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those things that we saw between affect

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and emotion right and

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um and this is not to problematize the

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slope toward thought it's to be able to

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slow the toggle down so we can

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understand what's happening in our

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experience

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um because we're building a capacity to

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articulate a new theory of the body hi

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Kevin I think I saw you maybe on the

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store or something maybe not yeah nice

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to see you here

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so

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um one of the things you may have

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noticed

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is this very strange synchronicity of

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the

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the at the before Socrates

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uh

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posts are bleeding into what we're doing

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here in the course it's all gotten very

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uh strange in my mind

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um and so

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um

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uh so some of those questions can come

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up

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um I'm trying to avoid

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blending them so

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um

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um but they're very close you know

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they're they're running very parallel to

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each other okay so what do we want to

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and this is the part where it overlaps

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without before Socrates as you can tell

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from the post and if any of you dared to

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look at the thesis which is a very you

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know not well organized piece of work

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which was

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hastily written in torturous

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torturously and laboriously put together

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at the end of a long two years

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um the whole the whole

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Theory

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is based upon pushing back against what

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we've been told for the last 3000 years

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that perception can't be trusted you

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can't have direct experience of the

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world

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um

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and and if you wanna I I posted

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something a video reply to Brian's

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comment today if you want to see how bad

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it is you'll see uh Don uh Holland

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saying at the one hand saying he's a

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highly respected act magician saying

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that we have no

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uh we have no access to reality it's all

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an illusion and then he goes on to talk

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about his own work which is deriving

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these fundamental principles of the

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universe now why would someone try and

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how they're they're real so how would

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someone how could one person say that

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like everyday ordinary experience you

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have no access to it but in my lab we're

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finding these computational

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aspects of the universe or beyond space

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and time into the fundamental math you

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know principles of the universe the

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these things just like were actually mad

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as a society like we're we're we've lost

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our minds it's really the truth so

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um now having said that we need to some

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of us may need to convince ourselves

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that uh perception I mean here it is

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2023 years ago I quipped it was a it was

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a joke that ever since post-modernism

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the philosophers had a really easy job

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because all we had to do was convince

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people that the world was in themselves

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were real and it turns out it's a very

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hard job because we've completely lost

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faith

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in that and there's a couple of things

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that I have we don't we on the one hand

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we don't act like we've lost faith in it

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because we continue to eat we continue

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to think things are important or to

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behave like things are important

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but on the other hand we've allowed the

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academy and the theories of technology

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to carry on as if

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we don't have access to reality and I

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believe this is why we are destroying

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the Earth because it's not real I mean

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these things are not real

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um and I can go on and on it drives me

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crazy

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um but

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um

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now having said that you know one of the

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things you're going to talk about when

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you go into your breakout group there's

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a lot to talk about is we're not naive

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we know that

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not everything we perceive

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uh is reliable on first glance or not

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everything we see we know what it is or

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sometimes so where does the Eric and

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confusion come in

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um and and

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um

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why is it a slippery slope why in this

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day and age is it so hard to convince

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someone that we're actually embedded in

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a real world that we have some sensory

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motor access to

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and I've given you two easy counter

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arguments in the in the course content

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um and if you're going to breakout group

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and someone doesn't know where the

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course content is can just give them can

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you chat in the breakout groups yeah

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right so you can just give it link them

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up they'll give you two easy arguments

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one is the argument from Sports

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and the second argument is the argument

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actually from illusion

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um and that one maybe need a little

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unpacking

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um

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and that's about it I mean there's all

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you know there's a lot to talk about and

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I know that you'll bring up some

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interesting questions and don't feel shy

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by

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uh

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at by examining this material by

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bringing up the things that seem to

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um problematize perception right and

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part of this uh will be the way we frame

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the question uh part of it will be

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um

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yeah so

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um are there any questions you're going

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to go into a 45-minute breakout group

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and then I'll see you at the top of the

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hour to see if we can share lingering

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questions or confusions or or or bring

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it forward

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any questions

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yes David

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um

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I noticed

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you used

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excuse me you used a word

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the end of the course content in the

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wrap

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and I'm not sure what that word means to

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you

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and I have a sense that it has a lot to

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do with

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this

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very thing we're reaching towards yeah

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the wrap pushes it into the larger

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question

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no you go no no you're you're exactly

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right it didn't explain itself

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it shouldn't have been a wrap it should

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have been like a preview or something

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um but but if you get that far that's

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the larger that's that's the next

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um

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yeah it it starts to say well now we're

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gonna fold this into this more bigger

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Theory so

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um but is there a specific word that you

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need what is the word I'll help you with

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value oh well

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we know what that word means we just

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don't know what it means

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it's not like I thought it was going to

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be like so teriological or something

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right no no so this is an interesting

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question if you get that farm and I and

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I'm sure it'll come as as we go through

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um

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um uh yeah

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[Music]

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exactly

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it's it'll help us tie what we're doing

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and doing into some really cool theories

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that we would be in agreement with uh

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later on

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but yeah now I thought maybe I used a

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big word like I do sometimes

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okay so Zoe's on the train I am gonna

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put her in a room but I'll put her in a

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room where she'll be there'll be more

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than the other other participants so you

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might see her jump in and out

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um

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uh and so uh oh so let me do this

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breakout rooms

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um

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no

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three to four okay so Zoe's in a room

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Zoe

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is what if I do three to four

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there'll be okay so one group is gonna

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have Zoe and if she's not in then you

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will only have two people uh if not

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there'll be in too many groups with four

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people and I think four people's a lot

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for this topic is that okay

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hi

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so one group will have primarily two

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people

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[Music]

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and it's fine the group is that that

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group is pretty sophisticated okay uh

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options 45 minutes

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[Music]

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and I will see you enjoy your company

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and enjoy your conversation

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do have some

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we have been joined at the top of the

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hour by some people which is awesome I

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love this I love the way that works and

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um and listen if you've joined at the

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top of the hour and you want to ask

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questions like follow-up questions make

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you know that's helpful also so

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okay uh what do we got who wants to

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start we with uh some insights you have

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some kind of questions that you got

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snagged on

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um or just a share it's all uh yeah it's

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all it's all good

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and and let us know who you're with when

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when you when you

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uh yeah and then you can invite your

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your mates

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your communa mates

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well I'll invite Donna to unmute

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and um

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I think we were pretty well convinced

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that we had the best breakout room

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but that's just a perception

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that was probably virtual

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and a simulation

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um

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there was something we had Zoe with us

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so there was something about

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you know she could only sort of come on

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screen periodically and we could see the

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scenery going by on the train and we

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could see the sun on her face and

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um

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there's something about

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feeling that deep

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connective tissue of sunlight and

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geography

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and

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um

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we discovered

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so many layers of

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connection between

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the two of us and the three of us

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um

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I don't know that we solved any large

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questions I don't know Donna can fill in

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okay I'm gonna beat up on you okay so

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the people in the other camp on the

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other side

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you you didn't actually see the

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countryside you didn't actually see Zoe

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what you saw was pixels on your screen

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no no this is true what this word

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perception that we're talking about is

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pixels on your screen

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the question is how does all of that

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conjugate what you said it's a sense

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making up hierarchy so that for the

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purposes of today we're working with

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what is actually being perceived are

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patterns and colors on my screen

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and everything else they would say well

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that's I I that's why you construct your

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reality

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we did a good job right but this is not

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what we're trying to do today we're

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trying to have a robust argument against

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it so now you could use your experience

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and have a robust argument against that

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um against

00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.220
the fact that they're going to say that

00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:20.040
you just constructed reality uh we

00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:23.940
probably are not able to do that yet

00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:26.579
um but this is how easy it is to fall

00:16:26.579 --> 00:16:31.459
into the counter argument

00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:33.899
because like then when you go out and

00:16:33.899 --> 00:16:35.579
look at a tree how do you know it's not

00:16:35.579 --> 00:16:36.660
the same

00:16:36.660 --> 00:16:38.579
is it the same

00:16:38.579 --> 00:16:40.980
is it the same

00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:45.300
let numb is it the same numbers degrees

00:16:45.300 --> 00:16:48.060
of difference between that and seeing

00:16:48.060 --> 00:16:52.199
the countryside outside of Zoe's train

00:16:52.199 --> 00:16:55.139
is it the same or do you think there's

00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:57.660
less degrees of distance when you look

00:16:57.660 --> 00:16:59.040
at a tree

00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:00.600
and you probably would say well there's

00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:02.880
less degrees of distance but then what

00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:05.220
do we mean by degrees of distance does

00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:07.020
everybody understand how I'm using this

00:17:07.020 --> 00:17:08.339
phrase

00:17:08.339 --> 00:17:11.160
okay what are the degrees of distance

00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.740
and can and how how how

00:17:16.260 --> 00:17:20.220
can how can we remove the degrees of

00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:23.160
distance between us

00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.439
in the experience

00:17:25.439 --> 00:17:31.160
just let's get Donna a chance first

00:17:31.679 --> 00:17:35.160
well what you're bringing up in me was

00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:36.480
not something that we talked about in

00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.580
the breakout room but I was I've been

00:17:38.580 --> 00:17:40.559
having been thinking about my

00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.559
grandmother who she was born in 1902 and

00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:45.720
she used to tell me the story about

00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.299
how she asked her parents if the people

00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:50.039
in the Box were real

00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.860
she was talking about the television

00:17:52.860 --> 00:17:55.679
and you know when I was I was sitting

00:17:55.679 --> 00:17:57.600
the other day

00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:00.000
and like most of my interaction with

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.179
people is actually virtual and I'm I'm

00:18:03.179 --> 00:18:05.520
like pushing up against that reality

00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:06.780
it's like

00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:09.660
are you are you really real or am I just

00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:11.720
talking to a computer screen you know

00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.360
okay so that's here and then the

00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:17.640
complete opposite of that

00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.400
what feels like the opposite or or a

00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.260
bridging of

00:18:22.260 --> 00:18:25.140
what I experienced with Sandra

00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:26.880
and Zoe

00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:32.039
um there was this moment when we

00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:36.059
we were really in touch with the the Sun

00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:40.460
that was that was the same raise

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:43.679
you know on my skin as in you know Zoe's

00:18:43.679 --> 00:18:46.559
background and and it's like it was just

00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:48.740
one Sun it wasn't three different sons

00:18:48.740 --> 00:18:52.500
and so there was this um

00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:53.940
I don't know it brought us together

00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:56.760
somehow in in like

00:18:56.760 --> 00:19:00.380
grounding in something real

00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:02.880
um

00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.799
and then there we had some conversations

00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:07.640
about like the sub threshold

00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.400
uh experiences of the body or movements

00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.799
actions in the body that

00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:17.100
were actually informing our

00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:19.559
experience of each other and experience

00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:23.059
of our partners and

00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.880
so it's kind of disjointed but yeah

00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.100
so here I just want to this is going to

00:19:29.100 --> 00:19:31.559
be very non-linear conversation because

00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:33.140
of the way it started

00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:35.039
[Music]

00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.980
but here I want to uh actually because

00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:41.419
David brought it in

00:19:41.580 --> 00:19:43.980
um because the purpose of this will just

00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:47.520
we can sit around and get lost uh for

00:19:47.520 --> 00:19:50.460
the next hour because very complex right

00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:51.860
so

00:19:51.860 --> 00:19:54.360
that last

00:19:54.360 --> 00:19:57.780
that last uh

00:19:57.780 --> 00:20:01.260
question on value that David asked so

00:20:01.260 --> 00:20:03.600
first of all to be rigorous we

00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:07.559
understand that a lot of what you are

00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.020
participating with was

00:20:10.020 --> 00:20:15.480
in excess of the raw sensory motor data

00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.240
because if you were just you'd be like a

00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.280
cat looking at things moving on the

00:20:20.280 --> 00:20:21.539
screen okay

00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:23.940
so what are we participating with there

00:20:23.940 --> 00:20:26.580
was a whole lot more going on than the

00:20:26.580 --> 00:20:30.059
raw sensory perceptual data

00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:32.460
you weren't hearing just sounds you were

00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:36.059
hearing words that made meaning

00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:40.919
okay so it's very hard for people

00:20:40.919 --> 00:20:43.820
to

00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:47.820
actually see in their experience what is

00:20:47.820 --> 00:20:50.460
actually just raw perceptual

00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.400
data data's a lousy word but I don't

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.320
know what else to say

00:20:55.320 --> 00:20:58.080
so if it was just raw perceptual data

00:20:58.080 --> 00:21:01.440
you'd hear sounds you'd see grayscale

00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.860
and color in patterns and you'd have

00:21:04.860 --> 00:21:08.400
this experience that would be a direct

00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:13.280
experience of the perceptual data

00:21:14.940 --> 00:21:17.880
but a whole lot more was going on it

00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:19.860
comes on automatically you are

00:21:19.860 --> 00:21:21.980
participating with meaning making

00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:24.960
semantic meaning

00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:26.100
um

00:21:26.100 --> 00:21:28.980
a lot a lot of other stuff in the

00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:30.720
experience you had

00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.900
and there was some perceptual cues

00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:38.280
okay now if you had no perceptual cues

00:21:38.280 --> 00:21:40.020
you couldn't hear anything you couldn't

00:21:40.020 --> 00:21:43.520
see anything you couldn't feel your body

00:21:43.520 --> 00:21:46.740
chances are you could never have even

00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:49.320
got it started to have the experience

00:21:49.320 --> 00:21:51.659
you have you agree with that

00:21:51.659 --> 00:21:55.440
okay so a lot of the foundation that

00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.840
enabled you to build this complex

00:21:57.840 --> 00:22:00.360
experience

00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:03.299
was not experienced it's in the

00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:07.760
background it's pre-given

00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.840
is everybody with me

00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:15.960
but what you are describing is you go

00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.240
into the breakout room you bring some

00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.760
with you something of value

00:22:20.760 --> 00:22:23.100
and then the value

00:22:23.100 --> 00:22:24.679
gets

00:22:24.679 --> 00:22:28.559
discharged onto the perceptual

00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:32.700
content like I see Donna and this value

00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:35.940
of connection gets discharged onto you

00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:39.740
these pixels on the screen

00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:42.179
do you see what I'm saying it's like

00:22:42.179 --> 00:22:45.240
it's a it's like I'm a conduit from my

00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:49.440
inner experience is being put on this

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.840
picture of Donna

00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:54.659
and it's being reciprocated back to me

00:22:54.659 --> 00:22:57.360
that's where the value comes

00:22:57.360 --> 00:23:00.720
the value of the original value in me

00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:05.159
can float on the perceptual experience

00:23:05.159 --> 00:23:09.020
into the object

00:23:09.659 --> 00:23:13.260
sometimes it can float onto if I'm

00:23:13.260 --> 00:23:15.720
preoccupied with myself onto my own

00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.059
identity okay so that's just where the

00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:21.240
value kind of exchange is always

00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.500
happening so I said a lot but it's on

00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:28.679
the recording but the important things

00:23:28.679 --> 00:23:29.659
is

00:23:29.659 --> 00:23:33.720
what your breakout room was had a whole

00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:35.700
lot you were participating with a whole

00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:39.360
lot semantic meaning

00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:42.900
um exchange of value through words and

00:23:42.900 --> 00:23:45.480
and what you were doing with your body

00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.280
and posture all this stuff was happening

00:23:49.280 --> 00:23:54.020
the you you were not aware of the raw

00:23:54.020 --> 00:23:56.220
perceptual data

00:23:56.220 --> 00:24:00.020
that was in the background

00:24:00.120 --> 00:24:02.640
other than the the sensations in your

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.460
body is perceptual data and then you

00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:06.840
know you quickly made meaning out of

00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:08.159
that but

00:24:08.159 --> 00:24:10.679
that was in the background on the other

00:24:10.679 --> 00:24:14.340
hand without that background you would

00:24:14.340 --> 00:24:16.320
have nothing to build

00:24:16.320 --> 00:24:19.740
you can't just go there in the virtual

00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:23.059
experience you had

00:24:23.059 --> 00:24:25.980
automatically if the other stuff is not

00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:27.840
operating in the background it's not

00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:30.800
possible does that make sense

00:24:30.800 --> 00:24:34.089
[Music]

00:24:35.820 --> 00:24:40.460
God we'll just leave that there go David

00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.580
you touched on Bonnie the source of my

00:24:59.580 --> 00:25:01.679
question

00:25:01.679 --> 00:25:05.039
and it has to do with that background

00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:09.080
definition of value

00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:11.940
I sense

00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:15.059
that in my Breakout

00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.520
and to answer your question I was

00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:22.340
honored to be with Holly and Katie

00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:26.720
um

00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:32.100
we touched

00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:34.020
a mystery

00:25:34.020 --> 00:25:36.539
that I feel

00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:41.100
is the background value

00:25:41.100 --> 00:25:44.520
that I'm beginning to slow down to

00:25:44.520 --> 00:25:46.200
appreciate

00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:51.840
and by what I mean by value is not that

00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:54.840
specific

00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:00.179
structure

00:26:00.179 --> 00:26:01.620
it's

00:26:01.620 --> 00:26:05.580
it's like uh what I said to them was

00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:06.720
it's like

00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.419
the value

00:26:08.419 --> 00:26:11.580
of blue

00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:19.039
is it sea blue or sky blue the value is

00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.840
non-specific it's this kind of

00:26:21.840 --> 00:26:25.080
background mystery value

00:26:25.080 --> 00:26:28.039
okay

00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:30.179
so

00:26:30.179 --> 00:26:33.440
describing something it's not

00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.240
we could map it onto that word value

00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.039
that's not exactly where I was going but

00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:43.020
that's okay because actually you can get

00:26:43.020 --> 00:26:45.240
there from here to there

00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:46.020
um

00:26:46.020 --> 00:26:48.720
so if you

00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.779
um

00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.220
if you look at Blue

00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:59.720
if you look at yellow

00:27:00.360 --> 00:27:02.400
and you control your thoughts so you're

00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.100
just trying to be you know eye gaze

00:27:05.100 --> 00:27:08.000
posture is good

00:27:08.580 --> 00:27:10.140
and

00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:13.400
you will notice

00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:18.299
that the colors satisfy in a different

00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:20.600
way

00:27:20.760 --> 00:27:24.860
there's a sensation

00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.020
I think David's talking about visual

00:27:28.020 --> 00:27:32.100
value Tony tonal range sensation and

00:27:32.100 --> 00:27:34.140
that thing on the post I wasn't talking

00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:35.640
about that

00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:39.720
but it's really the same thing but

00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:45.140
um so this is a very good noticing about

00:27:46.860 --> 00:27:51.559
it is the same thing because because

00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.100
I used to work for a landscape company

00:27:55.100 --> 00:27:58.380
and we would have to predict

00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:00.960
what flowers what perennials people

00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:01.980
would

00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:04.919
want want it in the spring because you

00:28:04.919 --> 00:28:07.919
have to pre-order them

00:28:07.919 --> 00:28:11.580
and if we had a lot of snow people would

00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:15.059
want oranges Reds and yellows because

00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:19.440
they were literally starved for color

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.020
right or in the spring after snow like

00:28:22.020 --> 00:28:25.200
the greens are like like it's not just

00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.659
like you're looking at them the green

00:28:27.659 --> 00:28:29.279
itself

00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.380
is

00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:34.020
you want to see green

00:28:34.020 --> 00:28:37.740
and there's there's a feedback loop

00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:41.220
which satisfies the seeing green it

00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:45.419
matters that you're seeing green

00:28:45.419 --> 00:28:48.120
so this is actually working at the level

00:28:48.120 --> 00:28:50.700
of perception with just sea green we

00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:54.059
just see yellow we just see a color

00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:56.659
and I notice

00:28:56.659 --> 00:29:00.559
that that

00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.380
for some reason I spend more time on the

00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.120
orange

00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:09.299
than something else

00:29:09.299 --> 00:29:13.260
and there's a certain flavor in my

00:29:13.260 --> 00:29:16.140
inside the shift

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.840
until the orange doesn't satisfy anymore

00:29:18.840 --> 00:29:22.020
and then I go somewhere else oh this

00:29:22.020 --> 00:29:24.419
beige

00:29:24.419 --> 00:29:27.840
and if you if this is working with the

00:29:27.840 --> 00:29:31.200
raw data of perception right so this is

00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.179
actually what the module is for at this

00:29:33.179 --> 00:29:35.760
level before it gets complex

00:29:35.760 --> 00:29:39.799
and you will notice this

00:29:40.919 --> 00:29:43.200
feedback loop you know what we are

00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.679
saying when I look at something I notice

00:29:45.679 --> 00:29:49.559
the appetitive drive the senses it's

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.140
look you know at the very basic level

00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:55.080
I'm not looking for my keys

00:29:55.080 --> 00:29:57.360
but certain colors certain textures

00:29:57.360 --> 00:29:58.940
sometimes

00:29:58.940 --> 00:30:01.980
uh like when you're on the beach and

00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:04.020
you're just looking to pick up shells

00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:06.000
can you pick up

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.980
you know every once in a while there's

00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:10.620
like this perfect shell but there's all

00:30:10.620 --> 00:30:12.659
kinds of things why this one and not

00:30:12.659 --> 00:30:13.620
that one

00:30:13.620 --> 00:30:16.340
right why this one and not that one

00:30:16.340 --> 00:30:18.919
there's some kind of

00:30:18.919 --> 00:30:22.500
feedback loop between just and it's and

00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.779
walking on the beach is perfect because

00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.360
you're not really looking for anything

00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:31.620
you just kind of looking right and

00:30:31.620 --> 00:30:35.520
you can feel that the perception

00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:38.760
has an active parameter and it's

00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:41.520
satisfying

00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:45.360
an arousal State it's very subtle

00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:48.480
um and there's this this Loop

00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:51.840
that that there's this

00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:55.140
exterior interior Loop even at the level

00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.960
of the raw perception so if you want

00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.600
call that value I think yes it deserves

00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:02.520
that term

00:31:02.520 --> 00:31:06.480
um and so what happens is whatever was

00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.419
unsatisfied when you pick up that that

00:31:09.419 --> 00:31:11.159
shell

00:31:11.159 --> 00:31:13.919
now that shell becomes valuable to you

00:31:13.919 --> 00:31:17.520
because it's closed the loop it is the

00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:20.520
Val it has satisfied this value so it's

00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:22.679
valuable to you

00:31:22.679 --> 00:31:25.620
now it wasn't a huge need so it doesn't

00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:29.760
become hugely important to you or maybe

00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:32.700
but it's that's that's

00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:36.840
do you see what I'm saying like that's

00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:39.299
one of the things that is happening at

00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:42.000
this level of just the raw Data before

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.980
all this other stuff

00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:49.159
gets in involved there's already

00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:53.100
something extremely important coming

00:31:53.100 --> 00:31:57.240
arousal is just our natural state

00:31:57.240 --> 00:31:59.460
we're animals we're not we can't be

00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:01.220
completely

00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:04.559
homeostatic because then we'd be dead

00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:06.899
so could be our insulins going up or

00:32:06.899 --> 00:32:08.760
insulin's going down I mean there's

00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:10.880
millions of

00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:15.899
perturbations in our in our physiology

00:32:15.899 --> 00:32:18.480
um because if we were it's like our

00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.460
heart rate goes up and down and the

00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:23.039
heart rate variability because if this

00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:25.380
didn't happen we'd be we'd be dead we'd

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:26.820
be inert

00:32:26.820 --> 00:32:30.059
so it's we're always in an arousal State

00:32:30.059 --> 00:32:33.240
uh why do we breathe because the carbon

00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:35.580
dioxide gets up then we're aroused to

00:32:35.580 --> 00:32:39.380
breathe it's it's it's the fundamental

00:32:39.380 --> 00:32:44.039
formula of being a living organism so we

00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:45.539
don't mean it like

00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:49.399
it's just it's just ongoing

00:32:49.399 --> 00:32:52.860
ongoing life that's what life is okay

00:32:52.860 --> 00:32:54.779
we'll park that there and we'll go to

00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:57.080
Raj

00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.899
oh sorry David first yeah sorry oh no oh

00:33:00.899 --> 00:33:03.659
so if David had a follow-up I should ask

00:33:03.659 --> 00:33:06.120
I'm sorry sorry

00:33:06.120 --> 00:33:09.679
well I don't want to

00:33:10.420 --> 00:33:12.559
[Music]

00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:19.679
leave the memory of the breakout as just

00:33:19.679 --> 00:33:23.760
there I want to just say that the time I

00:33:23.760 --> 00:33:26.360
spent in the Breakout

00:33:26.360 --> 00:33:31.500
was Far Beyond any expectation I would

00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:34.620
have ever had that the time

00:33:34.620 --> 00:33:38.220
and that's the the the value it's not

00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:44.419
only the visual value but we touched

00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:48.899
it was beyond the pixels Bonnie

00:33:48.899 --> 00:33:53.159
there was something else that happened

00:33:53.159 --> 00:33:54.600
yeah

00:33:54.600 --> 00:33:57.840
but we're not talking about something

00:33:57.840 --> 00:33:59.279
else in

00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.480
this module

00:34:03.120 --> 00:34:07.080
well no no I understand to know that and

00:34:07.080 --> 00:34:10.500
you could you could speak to

00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:13.919
the two women I was with

00:34:13.919 --> 00:34:17.159
um and and really so you get a sense of

00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:20.419
what I'm talking about Holly actually

00:34:20.419 --> 00:34:23.040
experienced both of my parents who have

00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:25.859
been dead 45 years to be present with us

00:34:25.859 --> 00:34:28.080
with all those pixels

00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:29.399
okay

00:34:29.399 --> 00:34:34.639
that was a mystery value right

00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:38.099
so this is

00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.080
I'm glad you have that experience we

00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:42.659
gotta remember that because what we're

00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:45.300
trying to say is

00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:47.580
we're trying so where does that

00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:50.460
experience like that usually

00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:51.800
get

00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:55.200
explained or interpreted

00:34:55.200 --> 00:34:58.680
as an extra or super embodied a

00:34:58.680 --> 00:35:01.320
disembodied or extra body

00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:04.140
it's it's usually gets interpreted as

00:35:04.140 --> 00:35:06.599
either a projection of some kind of

00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:10.020
psychic thing or not bodied right and

00:35:10.020 --> 00:35:12.240
then we become disembodied Spiritual

00:35:12.240 --> 00:35:13.619
Beings

00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:15.900
and what we're saying is that we can

00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:19.880
reclaim all these experiences

00:35:20.040 --> 00:35:23.520
because they are a version of what

00:35:23.520 --> 00:35:26.839
happens when I see yellow

00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.800
this is what I'm trying to say like like

00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:35.339
once we jump up there then we're in like

00:35:35.339 --> 00:35:39.119
like we're disabusing the experience

00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:42.540
from our animal nature

00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:45.839
because we don't know how to say that is

00:35:45.839 --> 00:35:48.480
also grounded in our animal nature and

00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.020
in the Earth

00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:56.220
I'm not disavowing the experience but

00:35:56.220 --> 00:35:58.680
I'm saying this is this is the challenge

00:35:58.680 --> 00:36:01.560
we have because we either have this way

00:36:01.560 --> 00:36:03.839
of understanding things or this way of

00:36:03.839 --> 00:36:05.700
understanding things or this way of

00:36:05.700 --> 00:36:08.339
understanding things

00:36:08.339 --> 00:36:11.339
and

00:36:11.520 --> 00:36:14.099
the new way G kind of way of

00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:15.960
understanding things gives you the

00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:17.579
impression that the Earth doesn't matter

00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:20.040
because these Transcendent experiences

00:36:20.040 --> 00:36:23.760
don't have anything to do with the Earth

00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.839
for my body

00:36:27.740 --> 00:36:31.619
so yes there's there's marvelous things

00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:34.260
happening here uh and I'm glad you

00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:35.390
shared

00:36:35.390 --> 00:36:35.760
[Music]

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.760
um

00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:42.359
but I want you to see how marvelous it

00:36:42.359 --> 00:36:46.160
is that when you see a different color

00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:55.099
if it wasn't taken so for granted

00:36:55.140 --> 00:36:59.119
it would be equally marvelous

00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:21.359
and if you walk the earth and everything

00:37:21.359 --> 00:37:24.180
was eek that marvelous we wouldn't be

00:37:24.180 --> 00:37:27.079
destroying it

00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.579
we'd be seeking refuge in these other

00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.260
extra personal

00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:34.099
highs

00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:38.760
and to understand if doubt wasn't

00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:40.920
possible between me

00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:42.960
and the color

00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.480
what you described between you and Katie

00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:47.940
is not possible either

00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:50.460
it doesn't live up there in its own

00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:53.119
formula

00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:03.720
and as communities when we

00:38:03.720 --> 00:38:06.119
I mean it's great we get together and we

00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.700
can have these experiences that are so

00:38:08.700 --> 00:38:09.780
rich

00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:14.520
but over time they come at a cost

00:38:14.520 --> 00:38:18.000
and and young people don't think that

00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.960
the world is real

00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:24.079
they don't

00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:29.960
and this is a problem

00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.380
to me the word transmutation and

00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:39.780
transgression comes out really strong

00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:43.560
it's um it's a form of disrespect for

00:38:43.560 --> 00:38:44.760
the

00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.359
congruence of coherence if you will and

00:38:48.359 --> 00:38:51.300
layers of that that accumulate and then

00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:54.060
you end up in this make-believe world

00:38:54.060 --> 00:38:56.280
that's no longer connected

00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.680
so this is these two words are very

00:38:58.680 --> 00:39:00.900
important and then we'll get to John and

00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:02.760
Katie

00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:05.160
uh caddy insult

00:39:05.160 --> 00:39:05.760
um

00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.980
you can be coherent

00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:10.800
at this higher level with someone

00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:12.420
so that's that's this notion of

00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:14.579
coherence very high coherence between

00:39:14.579 --> 00:39:16.980
David and Katie

00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.440
but if you can't track the congruence

00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.119
down

00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:25.020
to The Living Earth and the worms

00:39:25.020 --> 00:39:27.599
then you're not congruent

00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:29.220
right

00:39:29.220 --> 00:39:31.859
so

00:39:31.859 --> 00:39:35.640
if this experience makes you feel for

00:39:35.640 --> 00:39:38.400
shortened the depth Dimension then

00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:39.660
there's

00:39:39.660 --> 00:39:41.099
there's

00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:45.440
you can you'll fly fly away

00:39:48.060 --> 00:39:51.240
we want this experience to be happening

00:39:51.240 --> 00:39:55.020
and make you feel you're landed

00:39:55.020 --> 00:39:56.520
in the mud

00:39:56.520 --> 00:39:58.740
at the same time which is the metaphor

00:39:58.740 --> 00:40:01.859
of the lotus the Lotus blooms on the

00:40:01.859 --> 00:40:04.200
surface but it has this big tuberous

00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:06.480
root in the mud

00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.640
nobody want to remember the mud

00:40:18.200 --> 00:40:22.020
okay great thank you John I forgot

00:40:22.020 --> 00:40:25.920
though that those two vectors

00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.520
John

00:40:29.339 --> 00:40:32.400
did Raj have something before me

00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.040
Raj I don't know Raj

00:40:35.040 --> 00:40:37.619
yeah uh thank you John I did

00:40:37.619 --> 00:40:40.680
um just I was in a breakout room with

00:40:40.680 --> 00:40:43.980
Willem and and Tremor and just a also a

00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:45.780
very rich conversation now just a couple

00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:47.400
of thoughts that occurred to me and

00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:49.440
perhaps a building on what you just said

00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.560
Bonnie that I um

00:40:52.560 --> 00:40:55.500
you talk about the raw data

00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:57.480
and that there's a raw data that's

00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:01.140
impacting us uh through our bodies

00:41:01.140 --> 00:41:03.900
then it's I wonder then if if what

00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:05.700
perception is

00:41:05.700 --> 00:41:08.460
is always in the is in the context of

00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:10.380
relationships

00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:12.300
with the relationship to the people

00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:14.760
you're with to the planet you're on the

00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.740
tree you're next to the stream you're by

00:41:16.740 --> 00:41:19.140
and that there's something about the

00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:21.720
relationship that activates the

00:41:21.720 --> 00:41:24.960
perception at least some may yeah so

00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.020
perception is a participation in right

00:41:28.020 --> 00:41:30.780
so what are you participating with is it

00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:35.839
raw data is it this uh extra special

00:41:35.839 --> 00:41:38.460
thing that humans do between each other

00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:42.500
and can do over virtual reality

00:41:42.619 --> 00:41:45.599
is it with meaning making genre to

00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:47.220
meaning making I'm participating with

00:41:47.220 --> 00:41:49.380
meaning making oh and these words are

00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:51.480
useful

00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:55.440
am I just

00:41:55.859 --> 00:41:58.200
like I just saw this

00:41:58.200 --> 00:41:59.579
I don't know I wanted to pick up

00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:01.320
whenever I pick up this rock I want to

00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:02.820
put it in my mouth because it's one of

00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:07.160
those soft things like a lot of food

00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:11.940
that's very raw data

00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:14.880
so what are you participating with we'll

00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.940
answer that question is how many degrees

00:42:17.940 --> 00:42:21.119
of distance is your experience from the

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.260
raw data

00:42:24.540 --> 00:42:28.260
well so then the ex the distance between

00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:31.800
the raw data and there is a um

00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.380
a filter that sits on all of us which is

00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:35.579
culture

00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:38.880
and culture which mediates but you see

00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:40.680
and don't see

00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:43.380
and okay we gotta go slow if I'm looking

00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:46.020
at my wall yes it's culture that I say

00:42:46.020 --> 00:42:48.960
it's a wall or that it's yellow

00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:52.760
the culture doesn't mediate

00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:58.260
the raw data and it's it's it and it in

00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:01.319
the photons and how it changes

00:43:01.319 --> 00:43:03.720
this feeling that I can tell between

00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:06.180
yellow and I look at black and it's a

00:43:06.180 --> 00:43:07.280
different

00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:11.700
experience culture doesn't mediate that

00:43:11.700 --> 00:43:14.339
culture will mediate this that I call it

00:43:14.339 --> 00:43:16.640
black

00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:22.619
but if I'm looking at this yellow

00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:24.960
it feels like something and then if I

00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:27.000
look at that black I could use all kinds

00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:31.140
of words it retracts my eyes go deeper

00:43:31.140 --> 00:43:33.240
into it like that when I look at yellow

00:43:33.240 --> 00:43:35.579
I can feel my eyes go like this this is

00:43:35.579 --> 00:43:37.560
not culturally mediated it has something

00:43:37.560 --> 00:43:40.140
to do with our sense perceptions

00:43:40.140 --> 00:43:43.319
and I can feel that now the fact that I

00:43:43.319 --> 00:43:45.079
said depth or whatever

00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.260
that's that's culturally mediated but I

00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:51.900
can feel that something it feels

00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:54.060
different to look at this than to look

00:43:54.060 --> 00:43:57.920
at that and I could get so

00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:01.260
I just glance around I'm not making any

00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:04.800
meaning out of any egg and then ah I

00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.800
don't know I'm I this texture I wanted

00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:11.460
to why did I why did I stop there

00:44:11.460 --> 00:44:14.760
something there's some fundamental

00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.940
participation going on deeper way before

00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:20.099
culture

00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:22.440
Bonnie would you say culture is a

00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.020
farther degree of distance just to use a

00:44:25.020 --> 00:44:28.500
language you were just using yes if if

00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:30.060
if

00:44:30.060 --> 00:44:32.819
we want to use that language distant and

00:44:32.819 --> 00:44:35.880
distance doesn't imply

00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:37.440
a problem

00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.859
but you're further away from the raw the

00:44:40.859 --> 00:44:43.079
raw data

00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:45.200
um

00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:52.980
and just you know experience how hard it

00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:55.500
is for us to notice

00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:58.200
the raw data it's the same with when we

00:44:58.200 --> 00:45:00.180
worked with affect and emotion we really

00:45:00.180 --> 00:45:02.520
had to be careful

00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:04.440
um because we quickly go to emotion to

00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:05.940
thought

00:45:05.940 --> 00:45:09.440
we really really do not have

00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:12.900
embodied experiences this is how hard it

00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:17.460
is for us to get to embodied experiences

00:45:17.460 --> 00:45:19.640
thank you

00:45:25.319 --> 00:45:28.079
this is a very big topic it's like it's

00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:30.900
there's a lot of weeds here so John

00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:32.579
Lang's going like this because I know

00:45:32.579 --> 00:45:37.079
she's an artist you know yeah exactly

00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:41.240
to relate to oh my yeah to relate it to

00:45:41.240 --> 00:45:43.680
briefly what we were talking about to

00:45:43.680 --> 00:45:46.380
Consciousness let me read this millions

00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:49.260
and millions of bits are condensed to a

00:45:49.260 --> 00:45:50.940
conscious experience that contains

00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:52.920
particularly no practically no

00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.079
information at all every single second

00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:57.420
every one of us discards millions of

00:45:57.420 --> 00:45:59.520
bits in order to arrive at the special

00:45:59.520 --> 00:46:01.740
state known as Consciousness but in

00:46:01.740 --> 00:46:03.720
itself Consciousness has very little to

00:46:03.720 --> 00:46:05.880
do with information parts that involves

00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:07.319
information that is not present

00:46:07.319 --> 00:46:09.359
information that has disappeared along

00:46:09.359 --> 00:46:11.339
the way so I'm trying to understand

00:46:11.339 --> 00:46:13.380
Consciousness so I think it's tied to

00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:15.599
what you're saying just briefly not to

00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.180
get away from everything

00:46:18.180 --> 00:46:20.880
so what he's talking about this is this

00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.839
is the threshold thing

00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.460
when

00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:29.819
experience a lot of what that experience

00:46:29.819 --> 00:46:31.980
depended upon

00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:34.319
like the ability to hear the sounds

00:46:34.319 --> 00:46:37.500
prior to making the sound meaning

00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:42.480
was sub threshold to his consciousness

00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.819
right he wasn't like first going oh

00:46:44.819 --> 00:46:46.619
here's the sound

00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:49.260
now what does the meaning make he his

00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:51.960
Consciousness was right at the semantic

00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.780
meaning making of it already

00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:56.579
does that make sense

00:46:56.579 --> 00:46:59.280
everything else that was required for

00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:02.819
him to do that was sub threshold his

00:47:02.819 --> 00:47:06.200
consciousness of it

00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:10.260
however however extraordinary that

00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:12.660
experience was

00:47:12.660 --> 00:47:16.280
it took a whole lot more intelligence

00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:20.900
that he was not aware of

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.460
to enable him to have that extraordinary

00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:24.720
experience

00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:27.660
what's happening below and through all

00:47:27.660 --> 00:47:31.859
of evolutionary history and is a million

00:47:31.859 --> 00:47:34.920
times more extraordinary than being able

00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.079
to have that experience so much so you

00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.540
cannot be conscious of it

00:47:39.540 --> 00:47:42.020
okay

00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:46.319
and that's the hundred million bits of

00:47:46.319 --> 00:47:47.940
information I don't really like that

00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:52.940
language that we're not aware of

00:47:53.780 --> 00:47:57.420
that the conscious experience of sharing

00:47:57.420 --> 00:47:59.160
this beautiful experience with Katie

00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:02.720
rides on top of

00:48:06.839 --> 00:48:09.920
does that make sense now

00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:13.700
so they are related

00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.400
thank you

00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:23.579
great questions so Katie Patty Katie I

00:48:23.579 --> 00:48:24.540
don't want to call you Katie because

00:48:24.540 --> 00:48:29.599
it's Katie so cat cat Katie and jolt

00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:35.220
right it is it is Katie I don't know it

00:48:35.220 --> 00:48:37.440
could be Katie Kelly or hey Michelle

00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.480
Katie Schultz I didn't want to I didn't

00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.520
want to always partner you with Joel but

00:48:41.520 --> 00:48:43.200
that's what I'm gonna say Katie's old

00:48:43.200 --> 00:48:46.319
that works Let's Do It

00:48:46.319 --> 00:48:47.040
um

00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:50.940
so my question was also related to

00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:52.920
this notion of value and like the way

00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:54.599
that you're using it when you say that

00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:56.520
you come into the conversation and you

00:48:56.520 --> 00:48:58.859
take something from take something of

00:48:58.859 --> 00:49:02.040
value and place it on the pixel or place

00:49:02.040 --> 00:49:03.359
it on the person that you're

00:49:03.359 --> 00:49:05.280
communicating with

00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:06.359
um

00:49:06.359 --> 00:49:09.599
so I'm trying to imagine this Loop of

00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.520
value you know like I have a

00:49:11.520 --> 00:49:12.960
relationship you know there's something

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:14.640
out there and we're in a relationship

00:49:14.640 --> 00:49:16.859
where when I'm interacting with this

00:49:16.859 --> 00:49:19.680
something like I'm satisfied or pleased

00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:22.200
or like I feel good

00:49:22.200 --> 00:49:23.339
um

00:49:23.339 --> 00:49:25.560
I guess yeah I'm getting a little bit

00:49:25.560 --> 00:49:27.119
lost just in like the grammar when we

00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.800
take something of value and place it on

00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.319
the object but how is the loop

00:49:31.319 --> 00:49:33.540
happening there you I'm imagining maybe

00:49:33.540 --> 00:49:36.420
like there's some kind of concept in my

00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:39.180
mind that's dear to me and I'm bringing

00:49:39.180 --> 00:49:42.480
it to the conversation and then like

00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.180
allowing the loop to be open and trying

00:49:45.180 --> 00:49:47.460
to like expand it so that there's a

00:49:47.460 --> 00:49:48.960
connection with that person that moves

00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:50.700
through the concept of value and like

00:49:50.700 --> 00:49:53.160
hoping that it closes in a way is is

00:49:53.160 --> 00:49:54.420
that what you're getting at or could you

00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:56.880
yeah yeah so and then I'll just try to

00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.599
make it the simplest form it is okay

00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:03.960
so an arousal state is already has some

00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.960
value to it right because the arousal

00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:10.200
State wants to be satisfied so it may be

00:50:10.200 --> 00:50:12.359
it needs more insulin maybe it needs

00:50:12.359 --> 00:50:14.880
more sugar maybe it needs to see yeah

00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.940
there's always it's all it's not value

00:50:17.940 --> 00:50:19.319
neutral

00:50:19.319 --> 00:50:22.500
or else it wouldn't be an arousal state

00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:25.079
what is the what is the value in the

00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:28.200
arousal State like what part of yeah

00:50:28.200 --> 00:50:31.440
sorry I just don't like I'm thinking uh

00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.240
I have an arousal State and then there's

00:50:33.240 --> 00:50:34.760
an object that like satisfies this

00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:37.020
arousal State and

00:50:37.020 --> 00:50:39.900
I imagined the value to be like that

00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:42.960
line of satisfaction exactly okay

00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.900
all right that's the other that's one

00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:47.700
half the equation okay

00:50:47.700 --> 00:50:51.000
but the arousal State the fact that it's

00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.180
looking for a certain

00:50:53.180 --> 00:50:57.599
satisfaction is predisposed to valuate

00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:01.380
that to have to value that yeah so it

00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:03.359
itself is

00:51:03.359 --> 00:51:06.079
value

00:51:06.300 --> 00:51:10.020
because it values that which it wants

00:51:10.020 --> 00:51:14.780
right so the value in you

00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:18.540
Moves In and Out of the world

00:51:18.540 --> 00:51:20.940
so it's very similar if we take a very

00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:23.640
concrete example I'm hungry

00:51:23.640 --> 00:51:26.760
I want sugar I eat sugar it becomes part

00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:28.200
of me

00:51:28.200 --> 00:51:32.220
it's harder to experience that when for

00:51:32.220 --> 00:51:34.619
some reason I'm staring at this tree and

00:51:34.619 --> 00:51:37.020
it's just beautiful I don't know

00:51:37.020 --> 00:51:39.180
why you know you get like

00:51:39.180 --> 00:51:42.660
or bird or something and you're just

00:51:42.660 --> 00:51:45.900
looking at a bird like the the Cardinals

00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:47.819
that come to my feet are every day and

00:51:47.819 --> 00:51:49.680
I'm sitting there drinking coffee and

00:51:49.680 --> 00:51:52.980
looking at them out the window

00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:56.880
there's a value exchange happening

00:51:56.880 --> 00:52:00.480
that's the same as if I ate you know I

00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.460
don't actually take the bird and eat it

00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:04.920
so it's in me physically but it's

00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:07.280
exactly the same thing if there's

00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:11.339
there's something in me is particip

00:52:11.339 --> 00:52:13.619
there's purposiveness

00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:16.500
it has value because it values that

00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:18.960
which will satisfy it so it's got this

00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.079
this marker does that make sense it was

00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:23.940
just the other half it's a funny way of

00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:26.400
using that term

00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:30.540
but this is we can we're going to talk

00:52:30.540 --> 00:52:32.780
about

00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.940
like Zack sign says that value is real

00:52:35.940 --> 00:52:37.859
and it's in the universe it's in

00:52:37.859 --> 00:52:41.819
everything it's not made up

00:52:41.819 --> 00:52:45.020
um and it's not extrinsic it's it's

00:52:45.020 --> 00:52:47.579
participatory so that's all it means is

00:52:47.579 --> 00:52:49.700
that the fact that the arousal state

00:52:49.700 --> 00:52:52.140
will value

00:52:52.140 --> 00:52:55.500
I want I want sugar in that fat it it

00:52:55.500 --> 00:52:57.359
has itself

00:52:57.359 --> 00:53:01.079
an appetite sometimes I say the appetite

00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:04.260
is inherently a value proposition let's

00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:05.099
say

00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:07.920
okay yeah and then the other side coming

00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:10.079
back to satisfy obviously that's why you

00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:12.059
value it

00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:14.720
yeah okay okay

00:53:15.020 --> 00:53:18.420
it's a funny way to use the words but as

00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:20.760
we go on we'll see it's a deep property

00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:23.099
of everything and then we can say oh

00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:27.090
yeah that's the same with us something

00:53:27.090 --> 00:53:28.559
[Music]

00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.140
great

00:53:31.140 --> 00:53:33.740
hi

00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:40.980
I I I didn't know that I did that

00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:42.720
I actually didn't put my hand up

00:53:42.720 --> 00:53:45.420
consciously so oh because it'll read

00:53:45.420 --> 00:53:48.180
stuff yeah I don't I don't know I did

00:53:48.180 --> 00:53:50.400
that I don't really have anything

00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:52.619
on top right

00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:54.960
this is awesome I just

00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:58.559
it's a I'm a sponge that's all

00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.339
there you go Holly

00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:04.619
oh I'm so glad I got to hear raised

00:54:04.619 --> 00:54:06.180
voice it's so good to hear what it's

00:54:06.180 --> 00:54:08.599
right and Polly did it

00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:10.980
well I sense that's kind of where my

00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:12.599
question is leading because it's almost

00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:13.619
like

00:54:13.619 --> 00:54:17.400
Zoom chose Rey to just speak right now

00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.280
in a way and that's been some of my

00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:23.339
experience like you know I have to prune

00:54:23.339 --> 00:54:25.020
a tree the other day and it felt like

00:54:25.020 --> 00:54:28.260
the tree was choosing me to use my body

00:54:28.260 --> 00:54:29.880
to prune it

00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:32.339
so I'm just thinking about this

00:54:32.339 --> 00:54:34.559
directionality piece of value and how

00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.839
nature like the bird values me it values

00:54:36.839 --> 00:54:40.020
my ears to hear it

00:54:40.020 --> 00:54:40.619
um

00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:42.240
so and I just wanted to throw that in

00:54:42.240 --> 00:54:44.460
there yeah so it's another way to

00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:48.000
experience that the values on both sides

00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.079
right

00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:50.700
so

00:54:50.700 --> 00:54:52.760
um

00:54:56.960 --> 00:55:01.500
uh Joel Katie jolt

00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:03.980
all right

00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:05.760
um

00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:07.859
I um I don't have that coherent question

00:55:07.859 --> 00:55:09.660
I just want to maybe hear some thoughts

00:55:09.660 --> 00:55:10.859
on

00:55:10.859 --> 00:55:11.819
um

00:55:11.819 --> 00:55:14.160
just your take on something I took out

00:55:14.160 --> 00:55:16.140
of uh like the language you're using in

00:55:16.140 --> 00:55:17.940
the language in the article

00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:19.440
um there's a lot of reference to like

00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:21.300
the the raw data

00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:24.059
and some like

00:55:24.059 --> 00:55:26.940
Primal or like primary base level of

00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:28.800
perception

00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:30.119
um

00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:31.980
and like I have some like inside

00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:34.859
meditation experience and my experience

00:55:34.859 --> 00:55:36.180
for example like in the context of

00:55:36.180 --> 00:55:37.800
looking at a black wall

00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.920
is that there is no stable perception of

00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:43.140
Blackness if I just look

00:55:43.140 --> 00:55:44.819
long enough or in a different way or

00:55:44.819 --> 00:55:46.880
with a different intention

00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:49.020
Blackness kind of tessellates into

00:55:49.020 --> 00:55:52.020
whatever

00:55:52.740 --> 00:55:54.960
and there's kind of like there's no

00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.599
there's no end to this like the thing

00:55:57.599 --> 00:55:59.280
can kind of dive deeper and deeper and

00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:01.500
deeper kind of arbitrarily

00:56:01.500 --> 00:56:05.520
um and this gave me the uh the sense

00:56:05.520 --> 00:56:06.900
that there is like there's no ground

00:56:06.900 --> 00:56:09.780
that my perception is ultimately like

00:56:09.780 --> 00:56:11.460
sampling from

00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:13.740
like there is presumably some

00:56:13.740 --> 00:56:15.780
base constraint out there that I've

00:56:15.780 --> 00:56:18.119
pinged off of in some way

00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:19.980
but it's like

00:56:19.980 --> 00:56:22.319
participation all the way up and there's

00:56:22.319 --> 00:56:24.119
no

00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:26.160
there's no thing I could point at that

00:56:26.160 --> 00:56:28.680
doesn't involve me producing the

00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:32.880
perception somehow so like a yeah so I'm

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:35.099
I'm so glad you asked this question

00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:37.559
because I was going to introduce exactly

00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.380
this scenario but I'm like it's just way

00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.800
too sophisticated so

00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:44.880
um

00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:47.059
um

00:56:47.579 --> 00:56:50.520
and those of you that saw Apostle do his

00:56:50.520 --> 00:56:54.059
little his little uh uh demonstration

00:56:54.059 --> 00:56:58.740
the other day it's the same question so

00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:01.500
I'm going to try to convince you that

00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:03.059
they're that they're all direct

00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:04.920
perceptions but you're participating

00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:06.240
with different

00:57:06.240 --> 00:57:08.520
things or zooming at different things

00:57:08.520 --> 00:57:11.520
right and the thing that's fascinating

00:57:11.520 --> 00:57:15.000
about this is that in the article I talk

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:16.619
about

00:57:16.619 --> 00:57:18.740
having a perception

00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:21.500
and it's first it's a subjective

00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:24.540
experience and then pretty soon I start

00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:27.359
to talk about the molecules on my tongue

00:57:27.359 --> 00:57:29.760
that are the taste and then I all of a

00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:32.460
sudden I'm down in the world right so

00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:35.839
that's this this way which language

00:57:35.839 --> 00:57:38.880
starts somewhere and then it leaps into

00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:42.059
a different context and this is okay but

00:57:42.059 --> 00:57:46.020
what you're describing is actually

00:57:46.020 --> 00:57:49.619
moves in the other direction

00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:53.339
so Apostle did this cool demonstration

00:57:53.339 --> 00:57:55.859
for us he started with a rock but I'm

00:57:55.859 --> 00:57:57.660
going to start with let's say there's 10

00:57:57.660 --> 00:58:01.680
rocks on my on my desk so at first I see

00:58:01.680 --> 00:58:06.900
10 rocks I see sort of a pattern this is

00:58:06.900 --> 00:58:10.440
pretty conceptual right 10 rocks I'm

00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:13.440
noticing a pattern then I could put the

00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:17.220
Rock in front of my face and as and at

00:58:17.220 --> 00:58:20.160
first again I'm seeing more I can if

00:58:20.160 --> 00:58:21.900
it's like oh it's a rock

00:58:21.900 --> 00:58:24.359
and I can tell I'm not really looking at

00:58:24.359 --> 00:58:26.940
it I'm just taking the category Rock and

00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:29.819
and doing something quite expedient

00:58:29.819 --> 00:58:30.960
right

00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.900
so what I you might say well I'm not

00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.280
actually

00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.599
there's

00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:38.880
seeing the Rock and I would say yes I'm

00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:41.040
participating with the category but I

00:58:41.040 --> 00:58:43.200
can directly perceive that I'm

00:58:43.200 --> 00:58:45.599
participating with the category

00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:48.420
right and then all of a sudden I'm gonna

00:58:48.420 --> 00:58:52.680
do like a meditation and I I start to

00:58:52.680 --> 00:58:54.660
really see patterns on the Rock and

00:58:54.660 --> 00:58:56.940
because I'm a meditator can't do with my

00:58:56.940 --> 00:59:00.119
glasses it's interesting because I'm a

00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:02.760
meditator it won't let me get in

00:59:02.760 --> 00:59:05.780
um then I notice that

00:59:05.780 --> 00:59:08.520
I'm seeing patterns and then there's

00:59:08.520 --> 00:59:10.920
little Crystal things and then pretty

00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:13.440
soon as Apostles said the I'll use his

00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:17.160
words is that I see it's kind of fuzzy

00:59:17.160 --> 00:59:19.140
that there's no at first there's more

00:59:19.140 --> 00:59:21.599
and more detail and then it crosses and

00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:23.940
there's less detail

00:59:23.940 --> 00:59:27.660
and then finally I notice

00:59:27.660 --> 00:59:32.099
that there's a refresh rate of my brain

00:59:32.099 --> 00:59:34.740
okay

00:59:34.740 --> 00:59:38.339
so you see what's happening is Percy

00:59:38.339 --> 00:59:39.720
sees detail

00:59:39.720 --> 00:59:43.079
and then when you see the fuzzy you're

00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:46.619
at that part of the visual perception

00:59:46.619 --> 00:59:48.960
that's already categorical

00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:51.780
and you can read science on this like at

00:59:51.780 --> 00:59:54.740
the higher this is because a lot of the

00:59:54.740 --> 00:59:59.280
perceptual the the the the the raw data

00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:01.140
is you're no longer participating with

01:00:01.140 --> 01:00:04.380
raw data you're participating with how

01:00:04.380 --> 01:00:06.420
we remember that rock if you remember

01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:09.780
that rack it's kind of just fuzzy

01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:12.960
so now yeah this is the mistake the

01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:14.940
Buddhists make they say well then this

01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:17.940
is really just kind of wavy no because

01:00:17.940 --> 01:00:21.119
now you're looking at your memory

01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:24.420
of the of a rock it's just like when we

01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:26.819
if I think of if I say to you imagine a

01:00:26.819 --> 01:00:27.540
rock

01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:30.839
it'll be fuzzy in the same way that that

01:00:30.839 --> 01:00:33.119
perceptual experience started to get

01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:35.940
fuzzy so you're no longer now you've

01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:39.359
your perception your your animal Nature

01:00:39.359 --> 01:00:42.000
has withdrawn and you're actually

01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:44.460
looking at

01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:47.760
the the higher neocortex how it

01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:49.980
categorizes

01:00:49.980 --> 01:00:51.900
and then pretty soon you're not even

01:00:51.900 --> 01:00:53.880
looking at that you're looking at the

01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:55.740
refresh rate

01:00:55.740 --> 01:00:57.540
of your consciousness

01:00:57.540 --> 01:01:00.119
the mistake the Traditions say is the

01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:03.000
rock is coming in and out of existence I

01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:05.400
know you're not saying this but they're

01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:07.920
no longer there's a point at which now

01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:10.619
you're no longer actually participating

01:01:10.619 --> 01:01:13.140
with the rock you're participating with

01:01:13.140 --> 01:01:17.000
different levels in your mind

01:01:17.339 --> 01:01:21.660
and The Rock has withdrawn so so but all

01:01:21.660 --> 01:01:24.599
of those if you're aware of it are you

01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:27.720
know you are directly participating at

01:01:27.720 --> 01:01:30.119
the fuzzy level but with something

01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:33.359
different than when you're really

01:01:33.359 --> 01:01:35.579
looking at the rock as much as your eyes

01:01:35.579 --> 01:01:39.299
can can perceive detail

01:01:39.299 --> 01:01:42.240
there's these it's a zoom in a different

01:01:42.240 --> 01:01:45.119
way whereas the zoom with what in my

01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:46.859
article is going into all of a sudden

01:01:46.859 --> 01:01:49.280
years you start talking about the world

01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:51.720
this is a description and at certain

01:01:51.720 --> 01:01:53.220
point you're actually talking about

01:01:53.220 --> 01:01:55.859
you're looking at your mind

01:01:55.859 --> 01:01:57.960
you're not looking at the The Rock

01:01:57.960 --> 01:01:59.940
anymore

01:01:59.940 --> 01:02:02.700
you've get behind

01:02:02.700 --> 01:02:05.760
some of these these layers

01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.160
now the experience so

01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:10.859
so I just want to you know this is a

01:02:10.859 --> 01:02:12.780
sophisticated question and I know you're

01:02:12.780 --> 01:02:15.660
a sophisticated thinker and and

01:02:15.660 --> 01:02:19.559
meditator so it's just for you to weave

01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:22.920
into your own final analysis

01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:25.079
but

01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:28.400
um uh

01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:32.460
then I forgot what I was going to say

01:02:32.460 --> 01:02:35.400
because I wanted to parent I would call

01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:39.119
that but uh

01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:42.020
um

01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:03.000
yeah okay I can't remember I put the

01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:06.240
parenthesis like around it and I lost it

01:03:06.240 --> 01:03:10.380
so uh yeah and and does that make sense

01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:12.119
anyways is it helpful

01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:15.359
yeah yeah that does make sense that

01:03:15.359 --> 01:03:18.000
yeah you're saying that

01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:19.559
like there's something like a category

01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:20.880
error that happens where like I have

01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:22.079
some intellectual understanding that

01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:23.940
like oh there's a rock in my hand and I

01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:26.099
kind of just like I queue that up as if

01:03:26.099 --> 01:03:27.359
like that is some sort of universal

01:03:27.359 --> 01:03:29.520
truth that will glue on to every

01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:32.280
experience I have as long as

01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:34.559
and then my experience actually goes

01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:38.819
further into the perceptual input so

01:03:38.819 --> 01:03:40.200
like I go into the visual details or

01:03:40.200 --> 01:03:41.700
something and eventually

01:03:41.700 --> 01:03:44.160
the thing I'm doing is not there is no

01:03:44.160 --> 01:03:46.740
Rock suchness appearing for me anymore I

01:03:46.740 --> 01:03:48.720
have like dissected the thing into

01:03:48.720 --> 01:03:51.359
pieces and I'm not actually alive with a

01:03:51.359 --> 01:03:52.680
rock anymore I'm alive with some

01:03:52.680 --> 01:03:54.780
ineffable thing about the colors in the

01:03:54.780 --> 01:03:56.520
rock or something but I have like queued

01:03:56.520 --> 01:03:57.780
this up and pretend that this is still

01:03:57.780 --> 01:04:00.839
what's happening exactly exactly you've

01:04:00.839 --> 01:04:02.760
started to look at your mind

01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:06.839
yeah and because you've closed your

01:04:06.839 --> 01:04:09.119
perception your animal nature which we

01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:11.220
do all the time like if I imagine you

01:04:11.220 --> 01:04:14.160
know say recite the alphabet backwards

01:04:14.160 --> 01:04:17.040
you know you're looking at your mind uh

01:04:17.040 --> 01:04:19.200
it's not it's not I know what I was

01:04:19.200 --> 01:04:22.920
gonna say now so if we want to do this

01:04:22.920 --> 01:04:26.460
work and Bridge these real experiences

01:04:26.460 --> 01:04:28.859
that are very important and significant

01:04:28.859 --> 01:04:33.480
to switch here is between having a let's

01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:36.240
say spirituality or a philosophy based

01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:38.460
on phenomenology so you're you're an

01:04:38.460 --> 01:04:41.420
apostle to talk about phenomenology

01:04:41.420 --> 01:04:44.640
we and I say we need a metaphysis of

01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:46.920
experience

01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:49.740
so what are you participating is what is

01:04:49.740 --> 01:04:53.240
the experience about so in phenomenology

01:04:53.240 --> 01:04:57.780
I can reduce it's a analytic reduction

01:04:57.780 --> 01:05:00.180
people don't like to believe it I can

01:05:00.180 --> 01:05:03.660
reduce the self to nothing

01:05:03.660 --> 01:05:06.480
right but that experience of nothing

01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:09.260
still comes to a subject of experience

01:05:09.260 --> 01:05:13.920
it there's no way to get out of the fact

01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:18.200
that it's all phenomenological

01:05:18.200 --> 01:05:22.319
experience is experience for ourself

01:05:22.319 --> 01:05:24.420
you're not having a phenomenological

01:05:24.420 --> 01:05:26.700
experience and someone over in Africa

01:05:26.700 --> 01:05:30.000
it's it's not for them

01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:34.339
so when we take phenomenology

01:05:35.839 --> 01:05:39.119
the thing that holds it that's larger

01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:41.760
than a phenomenology is the metaphysics

01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:43.619
of experience itself

01:05:43.619 --> 01:05:45.960
so I just did that to you I said yeah

01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:49.380
that's your phenomenology but what's the

01:05:49.380 --> 01:05:51.240
actual experience

01:05:51.240 --> 01:05:53.640
so so that's an interesting switch this

01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:56.400
is this is where the work can be helpful

01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:58.500
otherwise it just sounds like a critique

01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:01.859
which a lot of what we're doing

01:06:01.859 --> 01:06:05.099
um so anybody you can you can

01:06:05.099 --> 01:06:07.079
deconstruct yourself a million different

01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:10.859
ways you could but it's still that that

01:06:10.859 --> 01:06:13.859
phenomenology or that examination is

01:06:13.859 --> 01:06:15.720
still for

01:06:15.720 --> 01:06:17.339
a subject

01:06:17.339 --> 01:06:20.280
there's no way around it and it's almost

01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:22.619
a tautology when we say it's not like

01:06:22.619 --> 01:06:24.000
there's a subject who's having

01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.940
experience the word experience means

01:06:26.940 --> 01:06:31.160
it's for a subject

01:06:32.520 --> 01:06:35.940
so that's that's a you know

01:06:35.940 --> 01:06:38.520
sophisticated conversation anyways play

01:06:38.520 --> 01:06:41.460
around with it you know to see see

01:06:41.460 --> 01:06:44.520
what's helpful or not

01:06:44.520 --> 01:06:48.420
Jessica did you have a question is that

01:06:48.420 --> 01:06:50.819
I didn't raise my hand but I had one but

01:06:50.819 --> 01:06:53.520
I think we're at time yeah we were like

01:06:53.520 --> 01:06:55.500
five minutes late so

01:06:55.500 --> 01:06:56.819
okay

01:06:56.819 --> 01:06:58.819
um

01:06:58.920 --> 01:07:01.319
I'm still a bit mind-blown what we just

01:07:01.319 --> 01:07:04.020
said but my question is is

01:07:04.020 --> 01:07:05.880
um Justin

01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:08.640
okay in a writing Workshop I was in

01:07:08.640 --> 01:07:10.260
there's someone who submitted a piece

01:07:10.260 --> 01:07:12.660
about sneaking into an equestrian event

01:07:12.660 --> 01:07:15.180
and in a bit of backstory she mentions

01:07:15.180 --> 01:07:17.640
her brother's suicide and the whole

01:07:17.640 --> 01:07:20.339
Workshop even though all the words on a

01:07:20.339 --> 01:07:22.020
page I should have that carry the same

01:07:22.020 --> 01:07:25.020
weight the suicide is a quicksand bog

01:07:25.020 --> 01:07:27.900
everyone sucked into it they can't even

01:07:27.900 --> 01:07:30.000
move on or really see what the piece is

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:33.000
about and so I'm wondering now

01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:35.160
like with things that you know what we

01:07:35.160 --> 01:07:37.799
would call triggering in terms of the

01:07:37.799 --> 01:07:42.599
value Loop is it an unmatched arousal

01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:45.420
state from a previous time like sort of

01:07:45.420 --> 01:07:49.020
coming up and like sucking us into

01:07:49.020 --> 01:07:50.819
yeah so

01:07:50.819 --> 01:07:51.859
yeah

01:07:51.859 --> 01:07:54.000
there's already

01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:59.480
okay here comes a dispositional state

01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:05.280
right that has this uh excess value

01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:08.960
around the word suicide

01:08:14.339 --> 01:08:16.500
so when you see it I mean in this case

01:08:16.500 --> 01:08:19.199
it's a semantic meaning but when you see

01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:20.480
it

01:08:20.480 --> 01:08:23.580
it's our it's there waiting waiting for

01:08:23.580 --> 01:08:25.759
you

01:08:27.480 --> 01:08:29.640
it's like okay I'm gonna end with this

01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:32.279
funny this is I this is I don't know why

01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:33.839
it came to me but I'll end with this

01:08:33.839 --> 01:08:38.819
funny metaphor to any body ever play the

01:08:38.819 --> 01:08:40.920
old-fashioned uh

01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:43.080
what are those machines pinball machines

01:08:43.080 --> 01:08:46.679
the old-fashioned ones okay now the

01:08:46.679 --> 01:08:49.620
reason why you know there's a hole for

01:08:49.620 --> 01:08:51.179
every

01:08:51.179 --> 01:08:53.400
ball right the holes weren't there

01:08:53.400 --> 01:08:56.339
already then

01:08:56.339 --> 01:08:59.040
the walls would never make it home I

01:08:59.040 --> 01:09:00.779
don't know why that came to me but

01:09:00.779 --> 01:09:03.900
anyways yeah there's there's that's the

01:09:03.900 --> 01:09:06.660
value piece there's

01:09:06.660 --> 01:09:09.900
so now we can tag that's not really an

01:09:09.900 --> 01:09:12.239
affect

01:09:12.239 --> 01:09:16.920
it's part of your predisposed

01:09:17.219 --> 01:09:21.120
for that to be more Salient right

01:09:21.120 --> 01:09:23.000
so that could be part of your

01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:26.299
dispositional state

01:09:29.160 --> 01:09:31.799
all right well we packed a lot in the

01:09:31.799 --> 01:09:34.739
first two hours these are very large

01:09:34.739 --> 01:09:37.679
topics and

01:09:37.679 --> 01:09:40.679
um and we actually make amazing progress

01:09:40.679 --> 01:09:43.759
I think since it's just

01:09:43.759 --> 01:09:46.319
dialogic you know we don't do workshops

01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:48.960
we don't do practices and stuff like

01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:51.719
that is a heavy cognitive load

01:09:51.719 --> 01:09:53.940
um so I apologize for that it is what it

01:09:53.940 --> 01:09:55.199
is

01:09:55.199 --> 01:09:57.600
um but yeah there's there's five more

01:09:57.600 --> 01:09:59.520
opportunities to come and build on it

01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:03.600
and uh hopefully you'll have a great day

01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:04.860
and

01:10:04.860 --> 01:10:08.280
pay attention to uh your raw data

01:10:08.280 --> 01:10:11.179
experience

01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:14.540
huh



## Cohort 2

00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:03.719
foreign

00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:08.880
okay I have a feeling that

00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.920
um we will be visiting at the top of the

00:00:10.920 --> 00:00:12.420
hour

00:00:12.420 --> 00:00:14.639
um by more people

00:00:14.639 --> 00:00:16.980
um but it's kind of nice to have a small

00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:18.960
group let's see one two three four five

00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:21.840
six we could have two breakout rooms

00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:23.340
so

00:00:23.340 --> 00:00:26.460
um the format is

00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:29.519
um I'm gonna talk for 15 minutes and

00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:32.579
kind of frame what we're doing today and

00:00:32.579 --> 00:00:36.420
it will give people a chance to come in

00:00:36.420 --> 00:00:38.520
if they're late and then we're going to

00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:42.420
go into a 45 minute breakout uh group

00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:45.780
to talk about uh

00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:49.040
um this module

00:00:49.260 --> 00:00:53.460
so this is a module on perception and

00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:56.340
what do we mean by perception in this

00:00:56.340 --> 00:00:58.760
case it's something again very specific

00:00:58.760 --> 00:01:04.140
very fundamental uh we're still in the

00:01:04.140 --> 00:01:09.000
sensory motor animal body so we mean

00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:13.380
you know just visual perception sensory

00:01:13.380 --> 00:01:15.600
sound

00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:18.320
um taste touch smell

00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:22.619
uh and then the proprioceptors uh

00:01:22.619 --> 00:01:24.540
balance

00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:27.000
um how we know where our body is in

00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:28.680
space

00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:30.740
um enteroception

00:01:30.740 --> 00:01:32.939
what do we know

00:01:32.939 --> 00:01:35.700
how do we know we are feeling good or

00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:38.700
feeling healthy or our Basic Energy

00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:42.840
State some people are really bad at this

00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.680
you know like the typical

00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.380
interioception has to do with like the

00:01:49.380 --> 00:01:52.860
typical story of the guy who goes out on

00:01:52.860 --> 00:01:55.439
the first snowstorm and shovels and gets

00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:57.360
a heart attack right because they have

00:01:57.360 --> 00:02:00.479
and and they're completely surprised

00:02:00.479 --> 00:02:02.579
because they have no

00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:05.280
early warning system they've never felt

00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.200
that like their blood pressure may be

00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.119
High I mean they don't pay attention or

00:02:09.119 --> 00:02:11.280
they can't can't experience that so

00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.400
that's called enteroception

00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.239
it's linked to a lot of uh

00:02:18.239 --> 00:02:21.420
cognitive capacities like they've done a

00:02:21.420 --> 00:02:24.360
lot of studies about

00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.840
um the correlation or or

00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.840
I guess it's correlation but it's highly

00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.599
correlated with other types of cognitive

00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.540
capacities your ability to

00:02:36.540 --> 00:02:40.020
um be aware of your enteroception and

00:02:40.020 --> 00:02:42.060
and different cognitive capacities

00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:45.599
including the capacity for empathy which

00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.180
then gives you a capacity for a whole

00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:50.760
lot of other uh Collective intelligences

00:02:50.760 --> 00:02:54.319
so we're talking about these fundamental

00:02:54.319 --> 00:03:00.180
uh capacities these organs of perception

00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:03.420
now the funny thing is is that we're in

00:03:03.420 --> 00:03:04.500
a pickle

00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:08.519
because if I was just using my organs

00:03:08.519 --> 00:03:10.500
and perception right now I would just

00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:12.659
see pixels on a screen

00:03:12.659 --> 00:03:14.879
I mean because literally you know like

00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.040
that's what your cat sees on a screen it

00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:19.200
sees movement and

00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:20.580
and

00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:23.459
we notice

00:03:23.459 --> 00:03:25.680
how quickly

00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:28.459
we're moving to much more complex

00:03:28.459 --> 00:03:32.640
experience than than raw sensory data

00:03:32.640 --> 00:03:35.459
right I mean there's a I'm not trying to

00:03:35.459 --> 00:03:37.500
problematize it but it's a it's a good

00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:39.420
thing or else you know we couldn't be

00:03:39.420 --> 00:03:41.220
doing this

00:03:41.220 --> 00:03:43.860
um so

00:03:43.860 --> 00:03:44.819
um

00:03:44.819 --> 00:03:48.060
this is much easier module to teach like

00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:49.680
when you're standing in front of horses

00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:51.659
right and the experience is very

00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:53.640
immediate

00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:55.620
um so

00:03:55.620 --> 00:03:58.920
um so it makes this conversation a

00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:01.739
little more uh difficult because there's

00:04:01.739 --> 00:04:05.040
already what I would call quite a lot of

00:04:05.040 --> 00:04:07.739
percept a lot of distance between the

00:04:07.739 --> 00:04:09.840
raw data and what we need to be

00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.159
experiencing right now

00:04:13.260 --> 00:04:15.120
does that make sense

00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.359
like this notion of distance between the

00:04:18.359 --> 00:04:20.760
raw data and really what we need to be

00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:22.860
experiencing right now because we're in

00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:25.919
a chorus we want to experience each

00:04:25.919 --> 00:04:28.860
other as people uh not pixels on a

00:04:28.860 --> 00:04:32.160
screen and so the com but the

00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:34.020
conversation should be about this

00:04:34.020 --> 00:04:37.940
awareness like about

00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:41.180
um

00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:45.240
what's what do we directly perceiving

00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.560
here well I'm not directly perceiving

00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:53.820
my well it gets complicated so so my

00:04:53.820 --> 00:04:55.259
eyes

00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:59.580
my sensory organs a visual vision

00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:03.360
from a certain perspective are actually

00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:06.080
I mean I am seeing pixels on a screen

00:05:06.080 --> 00:05:09.060
but I'm participating with a lot more

00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:12.840
complexity to organize this experience

00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:14.520
so

00:05:14.520 --> 00:05:16.500
um so this is the conversation around

00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:21.840
perception is this notion of uh distance

00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:24.479
between

00:05:24.479 --> 00:05:27.300
the raw data I hate that word because

00:05:27.300 --> 00:05:30.539
it's too computer-like but I'll just

00:05:30.539 --> 00:05:33.539
I'll just say that

00:05:33.539 --> 00:05:36.960
um but other things to consider today

00:05:36.960 --> 00:05:37.800
um

00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:39.660
and whatever you picked up from the

00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:41.400
content

00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:44.880
um is the fact that the sensory organs

00:05:44.880 --> 00:05:46.740
are not passive

00:05:46.740 --> 00:05:50.699
they have an appetite right so if I'm

00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:54.180
looking I can do it even just on my desk

00:05:54.180 --> 00:05:58.380
look around I notice okay I spent more

00:05:58.380 --> 00:06:01.860
time looking at that red

00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:03.840
um red type on that book and then I

00:06:03.840 --> 00:06:06.300
noticed the red book next to it there's

00:06:06.300 --> 00:06:08.520
a lot of other things going on but I

00:06:08.520 --> 00:06:09.360
didn't

00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:11.940
I didn't spend time on that and you can

00:06:11.940 --> 00:06:16.139
start to notice how

00:06:16.139 --> 00:06:19.259
you spent you spend you you look around

00:06:19.259 --> 00:06:22.020
but you're spending more time on certain

00:06:22.020 --> 00:06:24.780
things right and this it helps you get

00:06:24.780 --> 00:06:28.199
to the bra sensory data because you're

00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:30.600
just kind of letting your

00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.520
your

00:06:32.520 --> 00:06:35.280
eyes or your ears when you listen to

00:06:35.280 --> 00:06:36.960
things

00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:40.919
um notice that they already have some

00:06:40.919 --> 00:06:43.979
preference they're already pre-loaded

00:06:43.979 --> 00:06:47.220
for to be satisfied in some ways and not

00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:48.300
others

00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:51.780
and that's that's becomes an important

00:06:51.780 --> 00:06:54.180
important thing

00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:57.539
um to think about and maybe tie back to

00:06:57.539 --> 00:07:00.060
what we're talking about uh last time

00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:06.020
and so so uh like faces

00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:09.539
we have a big competitive drive for

00:07:09.539 --> 00:07:12.419
faces and that's why we see faces in

00:07:12.419 --> 00:07:15.539
everything and and

00:07:15.539 --> 00:07:18.600
um yeah so

00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:19.500
um

00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:24.000
so that's another thing uh to talk about

00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.319
um we can have a conversation about

00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:32.699
uh and the other content it starts uh

00:07:32.699 --> 00:07:36.539
the the post has content talking about

00:07:36.539 --> 00:07:39.840
how I mean there is this whole question

00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:43.500
of why is it that

00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:46.440
it's so popular to say don't trust your

00:07:46.440 --> 00:07:48.780
senses that you can't trust your senses

00:07:48.780 --> 00:07:50.819
that you don't see the world as the

00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:53.000
world is you see the world as you are

00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:56.639
and of course that makes meaning that

00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.139
has the power to make a certain amount

00:07:58.139 --> 00:08:01.319
of meaning but it's so overstated like

00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:03.479
that we're just we just have this

00:08:03.479 --> 00:08:04.979
impression that you know in the

00:08:04.979 --> 00:08:06.660
postmoderns that everything is just

00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:08.819
relative it's all constructed by your

00:08:08.819 --> 00:08:12.240
own experience anyways and

00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.220
um and

00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:17.520
uh so this is kind of an interesting

00:08:17.520 --> 00:08:22.080
question to what extent have have you

00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:24.419
've been inundated with that and been

00:08:24.419 --> 00:08:26.280
brought up with that and kind of buy

00:08:26.280 --> 00:08:27.599
into that

00:08:27.599 --> 00:08:32.700
and what is the work required to bring

00:08:32.700 --> 00:08:36.419
us back into some confidence

00:08:36.419 --> 00:08:39.479
um that we belong to this world

00:08:39.479 --> 00:08:42.419
that our sensory organs participate in

00:08:42.419 --> 00:08:43.500
this world

00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:46.399
uh

00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.980
yeah so so

00:08:49.980 --> 00:08:53.160
um if you don't talk about that in your

00:08:53.160 --> 00:08:55.260
breakout group let's bring that back up

00:08:55.260 --> 00:08:59.040
when you come back in Sam and so

00:08:59.040 --> 00:09:01.140
and then of course there's the whole

00:09:01.140 --> 00:09:03.899
Buddhist you know like to me when the

00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:05.580
Buddhists and the postmodernists came

00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:08.339
together they destroyed any hope of

00:09:08.339 --> 00:09:13.740
feeling that we had any direct access uh

00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:17.459
to the world and so

00:09:17.459 --> 00:09:19.200
um

00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:20.880
there are people that write for a

00:09:20.880 --> 00:09:24.120
cognitive science and Gibson's

00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:27.240
ecological theory of vision they are

00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:29.100
resuscitating

00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:32.040
direct perception

00:09:32.040 --> 00:09:32.720
um

00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:38.220
and our unmediated perception and

00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:41.820
um the way I've been talking about it is

00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:44.940
that the perceptual organs don't stop

00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:48.240
like vision is not just my eyes and my

00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:51.420
brain and if you define it like that

00:09:51.420 --> 00:09:53.480
then of course you can like completely

00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:56.700
deconstruct Vision

00:09:56.700 --> 00:09:59.160
um but the same people that do that will

00:09:59.160 --> 00:10:01.560
also say that you know their dogs have

00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:03.600
direct experience

00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:08.040
and so why is it our burden or privilege

00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:11.459
to not be able to access the world uh

00:10:11.459 --> 00:10:14.000
when our pets can access the world

00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.480
directly and then why does it matter

00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.140
why does it matter I mean there is a big

00:10:22.140 --> 00:10:25.620
uh Point inflection point here of of why

00:10:25.620 --> 00:10:28.560
it matters and

00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:32.040
um maybe we can us a little bit of that

00:10:32.040 --> 00:10:34.860
out in our conversation either in the

00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:37.080
breakout groups or when we come back are

00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:38.700
there any questions

00:10:38.700 --> 00:10:40.560
um like sometimes there are terms you

00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:44.399
might think are like not the one you

00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.579
said that was a trick

00:10:47.579 --> 00:10:50.459
are there any like terms that seem

00:10:50.459 --> 00:10:55.800
ambiguous or need to be clarified uh

00:10:55.800 --> 00:10:58.500
um but expand on that David you know

00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:00.720
just you you're you were certainly on to

00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.200
something David wanted me to uh

00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:06.839
Define the term value which of course

00:11:06.839 --> 00:11:09.540
wasn't about the word which is a little

00:11:09.540 --> 00:11:12.120
word it was about a much larger question

00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:13.860
so

00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:15.720
um yeah and we could talk about that

00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:16.860
again

00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:20.640
um today because that is kind of

00:11:20.640 --> 00:11:24.540
a big thing where we're going so

00:11:24.540 --> 00:11:27.740
are there any other questions

00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:31.920
and those you know artists have a good a

00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:33.180
great

00:11:33.180 --> 00:11:39.560
uh experience with this you know like

00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:44.820
Alan Noe talked about talks a lot about

00:11:44.820 --> 00:11:47.700
the artists and just having this single

00:11:47.700 --> 00:11:50.339
feedback loop between looking

00:11:50.339 --> 00:11:52.880
and moving pain and then

00:11:52.880 --> 00:11:56.100
noticing that I want I want

00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:59.399
green or I want I want something else

00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.760
you know like what is that what is what

00:12:02.760 --> 00:12:05.700
arises pre-perception that is the

00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:07.800
appetite for

00:12:07.800 --> 00:12:09.839
perception all these things are very

00:12:09.839 --> 00:12:12.060
subtle

00:12:12.060 --> 00:12:15.600
um yeah or music is the same way you

00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.579
know trying to figure out a riff or a

00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:22.620
it's like the perceptual moment is

00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:25.940
trying to satisfy

00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.279
okay my friends I'm going to put you

00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:34.320
into breakout groups there's something

00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.779
in the chat uh yeah that's Sam's we're

00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:39.060
gonna come back to that

00:12:39.060 --> 00:12:41.180
um

00:12:41.579 --> 00:12:44.779
let's see

00:12:45.420 --> 00:12:48.360
two to three three to four how many

00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.240
people have one two one two three four

00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.019
five six seven eight nine ten

00:12:55.019 --> 00:12:57.480
okay so that'll be good one one group is

00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.660
going to have four people

00:13:00.660 --> 00:13:01.560
um

00:13:01.560 --> 00:13:04.519
and

00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:08.120
let's see who's gonna have

00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:11.639
oh that's really good it it did a good

00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:12.660
job

00:13:12.660 --> 00:13:16.680
okay so uh let's see 45 minutes we'll

00:13:16.680 --> 00:13:20.100
come back enjoy your company and enjoy

00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:22.820
your conversation

00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.620
this

00:13:43.459 --> 00:13:46.440
okay so we have

00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.440
um some top of the hour people joining

00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.740
us which is fantastic and don't feel

00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:55.019
like you're just auditing if you have

00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:58.800
questions or even shares from uh maybe a

00:13:58.800 --> 00:14:01.019
session that you were in or questions on

00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:02.880
the content

00:14:02.880 --> 00:14:06.120
um feel feel free to ask but we're going

00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:07.860
to start with

00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:12.420
um the breakout groups and uh what did

00:14:12.420 --> 00:14:15.660
you uh what was your experience what are

00:14:15.660 --> 00:14:17.820
your Shares are you stuck on some

00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:19.500
questions

00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:21.480
um what were your insights where you're

00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:25.019
going with this all of these things we

00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:29.779
are eager to hear about

00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.320
foreign

00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:54.980
foreign

00:15:07.339 --> 00:15:10.199
I'll give it a go but it's really tricky

00:15:10.199 --> 00:15:13.139
what I'm experiencing now is how do you

00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.720
condense such a rich experience for me

00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.180
was very rich in so many different ways

00:15:18.180 --> 00:15:21.540
was my first breakout in pop-up school

00:15:21.540 --> 00:15:24.300
which I'm and

00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:26.339
how do you condense into like a

00:15:26.339 --> 00:15:28.199
nutritious meal for people that are

00:15:28.199 --> 00:15:31.260
listening well you know but but it's uh

00:15:31.260 --> 00:15:34.079
we went from

00:15:34.079 --> 00:15:37.079
so because my interest is also in the

00:15:37.079 --> 00:15:38.880
cycle and because I am menstruating

00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:42.000
today so I'm very attuned to perception

00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.220
and the bleeding so that is different

00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:46.139
than perception in the non-bleeding so

00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:48.300
that I was reflecting that it's like

00:15:48.300 --> 00:15:50.279
that's a lot of data comes through

00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:53.220
perception sound

00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:57.839
um color noise a lot and that could turn

00:15:57.839 --> 00:16:00.240
into effect stream like it can turn too

00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.579
quickly into all sorts of stuff

00:16:02.579 --> 00:16:05.459
because it's a lot more than usual so my

00:16:05.459 --> 00:16:07.860
barrier capacity

00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:10.860
it seems to be more refined uh in other

00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:12.180
times

00:16:12.180 --> 00:16:13.920
and it's it's

00:16:13.920 --> 00:16:14.639
um

00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.519
it's a it's not a bug it's it's the it's

00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:19.740
the way I'm packaged so it's great and

00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:21.660
then I'm learning I was just saying that

00:16:21.660 --> 00:16:23.699
I feel like I'm an artist for a few days

00:16:23.699 --> 00:16:25.440
of the month like a lot comes through

00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.440
and uh more perception so that was that

00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:31.440
then there was Kimberly and Lynn and

00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:32.940
David was beautiful having David because

00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:35.699
he would mirror some things and

00:16:35.699 --> 00:16:38.820
um Lynn is with art so she was talking

00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:40.860
about the eyesight so we went to and

00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:43.320
maybe Lynn if you want to add here and

00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.100
David

00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:46.560
um we were talking about different

00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:48.000
um

00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.980
different relationship to eyesight so

00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:51.779
people that have maybe a problem with

00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:54.120
eyesight can be even more creative with

00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:59.000
eyesight because they don't rely on the

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.579
the perfectness of what we construct

00:17:02.579 --> 00:17:03.779
anyway

00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:05.880
um I don't know maybe I'm paraphrasing

00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:07.799
here Lynn if you could and it was just

00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.319
Beautiful Exchange well I was just

00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.380
talking about you know I did I think I

00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:15.360
did research on perception did a

00:17:15.360 --> 00:17:18.000
doctorate and drawing I mean this all

00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.059
came out of defects you know what would

00:17:21.059 --> 00:17:23.040
be considered a defect in my eyesight

00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:25.380
and I came across a British

00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:27.000
ophthalmologist when I was doing the

00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:28.799
research who wrote a book called the

00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.260
world through blunted site and he made

00:17:31.260 --> 00:17:33.240
this argument that often people that are

00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.960
creative like artists writers they come

00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:38.460
in and they're dealing with the world

00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:41.039
very close up I think also I could draw

00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.080
because I didn't know what the hell I

00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:46.679
was looking at they were shapes and

00:17:46.679 --> 00:17:49.020
um I was the Curiosity was what the hell

00:17:49.020 --> 00:17:51.240
was that but in this

00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:52.260
um

00:17:52.260 --> 00:17:54.360
this book and I'm sorry I can't remember

00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:57.299
his name he did talk about that even

00:17:57.299 --> 00:17:59.160
once the eyesight is corrected the

00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.400
personality becomes coherent around that

00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.559
way of interacting with the world I

00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:06.539
still noticed that if somebody goes oh

00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:08.520
look at the view it's like yeah yeah

00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:10.919
yeah it's over there doesn't really grab

00:18:10.919 --> 00:18:13.260
me I'm very interested in what's close

00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:14.520
up

00:18:14.520 --> 00:18:15.299
um

00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:16.740
I think we all have different

00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:20.480
personalities around how we apply it

00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.700
apply our perception but also I think

00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.460
what what that told me was that often

00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:29.160
what we we consider a flaw is actually

00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:31.700
our gift

00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:38.720
or leads to the gift

00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:47.940
buddy we're talking about eyesight in

00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:50.100
our group as well Lynn and thank you

00:18:50.100 --> 00:18:52.620
Adriana for highlighting this because I

00:18:52.620 --> 00:18:54.840
had a really bad eyesight until my 12th

00:18:54.840 --> 00:18:56.760
or 13th and I could not see the world

00:18:56.760 --> 00:18:59.460
but my other senses were heightened so I

00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.320
could hear what was going on in other

00:19:01.320 --> 00:19:04.200
rooms and I could smell things that were

00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.600
just you know I thought I could smell

00:19:06.600 --> 00:19:08.160
things that other people could not smell

00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:10.320
but I could see the world through

00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:11.940
different eyes but I was still on ground

00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:13.020
zero

00:19:13.020 --> 00:19:14.820
because I was really in in connection

00:19:14.820 --> 00:19:15.960
with

00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.840
I am nature but being in nature more

00:19:18.840 --> 00:19:21.120
without the eyesight

00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:23.280
and once I got glasses I did not want to

00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:25.980
see the world in a way I should see them

00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:28.140
actually because I liked it without the

00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:29.520
glasses better

00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:33.900
and my personality we actually had to

00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:36.780
attune or adapt to that new way of

00:19:36.780 --> 00:19:40.020
seeing and it was really really gentle

00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:42.059
so I took my glasses off and put them on

00:19:42.059 --> 00:19:44.880
and it was like playing with what was

00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:47.160
there and what what is it that I'm

00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.440
seeing so it's actually witnessing

00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.320
what's being seen in a new way

00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:55.080
and now it's just fascinating to be that

00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:57.000
and to talk about that with people as

00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.160
well it's like well

00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.320
but there's something underneath this as

00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:03.120
well and I can't speak to it but I can

00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:07.940
sense it but I'll I'll leave it for now

00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:21.720
and as I'm realized I'm very aroused at

00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:23.700
the moment I'm very there's a lot of

00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:25.799
energy coming through I'm bouncing here

00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.020
because my dispositional stake was like

00:20:28.020 --> 00:20:30.360
oh I like this but when you started

00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:33.120
speaking Adriana and Lynn

00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:35.880
there's this energy and I there's

00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:38.460
something and emo my emotions are are

00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:40.260
coming through I mean very emotional and

00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:42.120
passionate as well but

00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:44.460
and then I'm I'm looking at my thoughts

00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:46.919
now so what what is happening here I'm

00:20:46.919 --> 00:20:49.380
actually so it's like and then it's the

00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:51.360
flow of it it's beautiful to be with

00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:53.820
this here now and to express this here

00:20:53.820 --> 00:20:55.740
with you guys as well it's like yes I

00:20:55.740 --> 00:20:57.960
can do this without being strange or

00:20:57.960 --> 00:20:59.760
funny I am but

00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:01.620
I like it

00:21:01.620 --> 00:21:04.460
so yeah

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.880
I had that same sensation in my breakout

00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.120
group where I just got really excited my

00:21:15.120 --> 00:21:17.940
knees started going and I had to

00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:22.080
take that breath to reground so it's so

00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:24.419
curious that you mentioned that because

00:21:24.419 --> 00:21:27.660
I felt such a similar thing come up and

00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:29.880
then yeah there's no words it's just

00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.880
becomes this pure sensation literally

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.419
this pure Sensation that you can't

00:21:36.419 --> 00:21:39.900
verbalize right like it's really

00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:42.480
fascinating and then for me

00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.620
it was this sense of awe and wonder like

00:21:45.620 --> 00:21:52.380
oh like this is all a Divine Divine this

00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:55.020
is all a miracle like but what is the

00:21:55.020 --> 00:21:57.659
miracle but it's here it's happening

00:21:57.659 --> 00:21:59.580
right now

00:21:59.580 --> 00:22:05.700
that was my like this small like

00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:08.460
moment of faith

00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:11.820
like true faith that there's something

00:22:11.820 --> 00:22:14.640
more out there that is actually tangible

00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.179
even though I am in a liminal place and

00:22:18.179 --> 00:22:21.179
have no idea what it is right but

00:22:21.179 --> 00:22:25.880
knowing just knowing it's there

00:22:25.919 --> 00:22:28.320
yeah thank you for sharing Anna because

00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:33.140
that was such a similar experience

00:22:41.340 --> 00:22:44.340
yeah I was in the same group with Anna

00:22:44.340 --> 00:22:46.260
and also

00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:49.080
um with Phoebe I would like to share one

00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:50.940
of the experiences that I shared there

00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:53.039
about color

00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.320
um I'm not going to do all the big story

00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:57.179
about it but

00:22:57.179 --> 00:23:00.120
um I ha well in this group we talk about

00:23:00.120 --> 00:23:01.039
um

00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:04.200
non-ordinary experiences so I had one of

00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:08.760
these and then when I was

00:23:08.760 --> 00:23:12.360
I don't know back in my body or back in

00:23:12.360 --> 00:23:14.640
what appeared to be more a reality for

00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.659
me my mother world that I normally see

00:23:18.659 --> 00:23:21.059
there are a number of things that

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:22.740
occurred after that

00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:24.720
one of them was

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.780
that I just perceived color differently

00:23:27.780 --> 00:23:31.260
than I'd ever perceived it and it stayed

00:23:31.260 --> 00:23:34.140
like that with me forever it's never

00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:37.200
gone away it's like color calls me and I

00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.620
call color it was a beautiful it's just

00:23:40.620 --> 00:23:42.539
this experience and it's sort of so

00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:44.460
ordinary I don't even want to say it's

00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:46.500
non-ordinary it just feels very ordinary

00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:51.539
now but every all color is

00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:54.600
it's just beautiful and it doesn't

00:23:54.600 --> 00:23:57.600
matter where I am

00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:00.780
the color is always beautiful and it's

00:24:00.780 --> 00:24:05.159
always I always feel like I'm with the

00:24:05.159 --> 00:24:07.860
color and the colors with me and it's

00:24:07.860 --> 00:24:10.320
yeah so that was really

00:24:10.320 --> 00:24:13.020
interesting in relationship to what Anna

00:24:13.020 --> 00:24:15.960
had been sharing as well

00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:17.640
and there's lots of other things but

00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.039
that's the one about power so just

00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:23.100
cheering there thank you have you ever

00:24:23.100 --> 00:24:25.980
spent time with rothko's work

00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:28.080
the painter rothko

00:24:28.080 --> 00:24:33.200
th rothko is that how you say it rathgo

00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:36.480
yeah are you asking me yeah

00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.500
I don't even know the name oh okay so

00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:43.919
this is rathgo he just paint just

00:24:43.919 --> 00:24:45.120
painted

00:24:45.120 --> 00:24:48.320
color fields

00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:51.860
but but

00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.980
if you can have this experience with

00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:58.679
colors you can see exactly what he's

00:24:58.679 --> 00:25:02.159
doing so Lena's got got a uh a clip

00:25:02.159 --> 00:25:05.460
there you know uh you'll get a sense of

00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:08.760
it from images on the internet if you

00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:11.220
ever get a chance to stand in front of a

00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:12.419
rothko

00:25:12.419 --> 00:25:15.600
uh can you spell a name for me it's it's

00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:18.480
in the chat oh okay thank you somebody

00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.740
put it

00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:23.280
so the link that I posted is actually

00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:25.679
um it's the Rothco Chapel I've

00:25:25.679 --> 00:25:29.460
definitely visited and um it's actually

00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:31.740
a sanctuary space for a lot of

00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:35.340
meditators come to on pilgrimages and

00:25:35.340 --> 00:25:39.779
it's these big huge color he primarily

00:25:39.779 --> 00:25:43.320
focused in color and color theory and he

00:25:43.320 --> 00:25:46.080
developed these huge planes and people

00:25:46.080 --> 00:25:49.740
who come to this Museum that is a

00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:52.700
sanctuary state that they have Divine

00:25:52.700 --> 00:25:54.840
experiences and

00:25:54.840 --> 00:25:57.120
um I think the Dalai Lama has actually

00:25:57.120 --> 00:25:59.820
been there as well and they have all

00:25:59.820 --> 00:26:04.700
sorts of events and um it's a beautiful

00:26:04.700 --> 00:26:06.679
amazing

00:26:06.679 --> 00:26:09.779
extraordinary I could go on it's his

00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:11.120
work is

00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:13.919
phenomenal so yeah and modern people

00:26:13.919 --> 00:26:15.900
just scratch their head and like they

00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:19.080
say two 20 million dollars for that like

00:26:19.080 --> 00:26:21.620
like

00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:24.900
because it you know they don't they

00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:27.600
don't get it but anyways each each

00:26:27.600 --> 00:26:31.440
painting is actually hundreds upon

00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.320
hundreds of layers of thin layers yeah

00:26:34.320 --> 00:26:38.520
and it's provokes a vibration I actually

00:26:38.520 --> 00:26:40.980
studying him intensively and do color

00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:44.100
planes myself so

00:26:44.100 --> 00:26:47.580
um but he's the master and he was really

00:26:47.580 --> 00:26:50.520
misunderstood and people really took him

00:26:50.520 --> 00:26:55.260
as this Rich insane guy who had you know

00:26:55.260 --> 00:26:59.640
oh we can do that and he was discredited

00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.400
um some people got mad at him like he

00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.919
was just playing a joke on people like

00:27:04.919 --> 00:27:07.500
they're just like

00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:12.240
um but anyways uh just this is a real

00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:15.059
this is a real thing

00:27:15.059 --> 00:27:17.059
um

00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:34.140
I'm really curious about perception and

00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:36.539
eyesight and when we were talking about

00:27:36.539 --> 00:27:39.539
and Anna was talking about uh how when

00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.039
you put the glasses you wanted to go

00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.900
back and see the world as you used to

00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:44.940
see

00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:48.059
um I I had I have had I shared in my

00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:50.600
group in plant medicine

00:27:50.600 --> 00:27:53.700
experiences the the most common for me

00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:56.760
is that I can't make sense like it's all

00:27:56.760 --> 00:27:59.340
pixels everything like people and air

00:27:59.340 --> 00:28:04.260
and tree and dog everything is with very

00:28:04.260 --> 00:28:06.900
tiny differences but I can't pick the

00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:10.140
difference I can't whatever I use in a

00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.960
normal day reality to make sense doesn't

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:14.520
it's not on

00:28:14.520 --> 00:28:16.140
so then

00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.659
um I'm curious because there's something

00:28:18.659 --> 00:28:20.100
else that's

00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:21.020
um

00:28:21.020 --> 00:28:23.940
foregrounded in in those experiences and

00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:25.440
when Anna was saying like you couldn't

00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:26.880
see so it's almost like

00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.120
the uh the I other can't happen when

00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:31.980
everything around these pixels including

00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:34.799
my arm and my everything including

00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:36.480
looking at my hand

00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:41.279
so it was so to me the vision and how

00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.279
um I loved also when Lynn said that you

00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.080
know she discovers the world as she

00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:48.299
draws because she looks she has bad

00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:51.120
eyesight so therefore she doesn't look

00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:53.880
at the world and it's like I know that's

00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:55.740
a tree and then it's defined and then

00:28:55.740 --> 00:28:58.740
you collapse the meaning of tree so then

00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:01.380
the I'm interested in that relationship

00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:03.900
of of perception and

00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:05.760
and then the

00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:08.720
interface

00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.860
there's this interesting video I'm not

00:29:16.860 --> 00:29:19.500
gonna be able to find it it's like a PBS

00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:22.020
video or BBC

00:29:22.020 --> 00:29:25.559
and it's an experiment it's it's this

00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.220
man who was blind he was born blind

00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:32.179
and

00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:35.100
you know he can feel something like this

00:29:35.100 --> 00:29:38.820
and he can draw it perspective 3D

00:29:38.820 --> 00:29:41.520
perspective perspective

00:29:41.520 --> 00:29:44.179
in the theory of

00:29:44.179 --> 00:29:48.299
perspective perspectival knowing up

00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:50.880
until this man was that this was

00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.559
impossible

00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:57.539
and they bring him to this famous

00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:02.419
like cathedral in Milan or something

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.760
and he sits in his chair and he gets up

00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:09.899
and he walks to the cathedral maybe it's

00:30:09.899 --> 00:30:14.159
about 15 meters away and he spends all

00:30:14.159 --> 00:30:17.340
this time touching it

00:30:17.340 --> 00:30:23.460
and he draws a perfect 3D perspectival

00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:26.840
rendition of it

00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:30.899
and this top this is part of

00:30:30.899 --> 00:30:34.140
this explanation that

00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:37.640
the background the background

00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:40.380
upon which

00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:43.880
the individual sensory organs

00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:46.919
perceive has a lot to do with the body

00:30:46.919 --> 00:30:50.580
and walking and touching

00:30:50.580 --> 00:30:54.240
and without which we could not see

00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:57.179
without which we could not hear because

00:30:57.179 --> 00:31:01.620
we could not organize sound in any any

00:31:01.620 --> 00:31:03.360
certain way

00:31:03.360 --> 00:31:04.799
so

00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:08.600
this notion that

00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.760
um

00:31:11.760 --> 00:31:14.940
you know and and some of what we're

00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:17.520
talking about is

00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:19.159
when we talk about

00:31:19.159 --> 00:31:21.899
non-ordinary States is

00:31:21.899 --> 00:31:24.059
if perception is a holistic

00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:25.980
participation

00:31:25.980 --> 00:31:30.539
like full body then if some things are

00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:35.580
online or hypertrophied or hypotrophy

00:31:35.580 --> 00:31:37.559
um you'll get different perceptual

00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:40.559
experiences

00:31:40.919 --> 00:31:44.159
um now the people in the other Camp will

00:31:44.159 --> 00:31:46.980
say well this is why we say you don't

00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:49.140
have access

00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.600
to the real world

00:31:51.600 --> 00:31:53.880
and

00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:55.399
um

00:31:55.399 --> 00:31:58.919
you know this is this is

00:31:58.919 --> 00:32:00.899
I think

00:32:00.899 --> 00:32:03.899
you know not not a satisfactory

00:32:03.899 --> 00:32:06.899
conclusion

00:32:18.620 --> 00:32:21.419
Bonnie what's your sense about

00:32:21.419 --> 00:32:25.320
um dreams and what is being co-created

00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:29.720
or what the co-participation is in that

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.220
yeah so dreams are virtual Perceptions

00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:35.159
in our in our model if we're going to

00:32:35.159 --> 00:32:36.260
name them

00:32:36.260 --> 00:32:38.100
and

00:32:38.100 --> 00:32:39.419
um

00:32:39.419 --> 00:32:41.340
and I'm just going to stick with the

00:32:41.340 --> 00:32:42.720
perception I mean I'm not going to talk

00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.700
about like

00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:48.179
the cognitive information in them

00:32:48.179 --> 00:32:50.820
um right now but dreams

00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:53.640
or virtual perceptions and in dreams

00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:56.399
what can happen is

00:32:56.399 --> 00:32:58.860
you know

00:32:58.860 --> 00:32:59.640
um

00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:01.679
there's a lot of research that shows

00:33:01.679 --> 00:33:04.559
that what we do is we simulate different

00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.279
environments in dreams and we can take

00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.419
like a a piece of this like in the real

00:33:12.419 --> 00:33:16.200
world a tree grows on land but maybe I

00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:20.039
have it grow in the sky we take the

00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:22.820
purpose of Dreams is to simulate

00:33:22.820 --> 00:33:25.799
environments we haven't actually

00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:29.159
encountered so if in fact we encounter

00:33:29.159 --> 00:33:33.980
them then we already know them

00:33:34.260 --> 00:33:36.419
so

00:33:36.419 --> 00:33:39.960
um so this is the fundamental sensory

00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.100
motor was staying at this level

00:33:43.100 --> 00:33:46.159
explanation of dreams and so this is

00:33:46.159 --> 00:33:48.679
research that

00:33:48.679 --> 00:33:52.860
uh was done by this neuroscientist who

00:33:52.860 --> 00:33:56.760
was actually studying rats and instead

00:33:56.760 --> 00:33:58.380
of you know they had electrodes

00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:00.960
implanted in their head and they would

00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.380
run mazes and this one researcher

00:34:04.380 --> 00:34:08.040
instead of watching the in watching what

00:34:08.040 --> 00:34:10.379
was happening in their brains by blips

00:34:10.379 --> 00:34:11.520
on a screen

00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:14.399
he realized that as a researcher as a

00:34:14.399 --> 00:34:16.460
human

00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:20.700
we can list patterns in music or Sound

00:34:20.700 --> 00:34:24.599
patterns we can discern more in sound

00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:27.659
than we can blips on a screen so instead

00:34:27.659 --> 00:34:29.520
of blips on a screen

00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:34.200
every neural Spike made a sound and he

00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:38.460
got so he could he could recognize like

00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:41.580
if a rat was running maze a he could

00:34:41.580 --> 00:34:43.800
recognize the song

00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.919
that was being played on Maize a and

00:34:46.919 --> 00:34:50.700
same with Maize B and uh so he was just

00:34:50.700 --> 00:34:52.679
doing straight up research on learning

00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.040
mazes but one day and I know you've

00:34:56.040 --> 00:34:57.660
heard the story but other people have it

00:34:57.660 --> 00:35:01.859
one day he was working late and the Rats

00:35:01.859 --> 00:35:04.440
were sleeping and he didn't shut the

00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:07.859
Machinery off and he heard a song that

00:35:07.859 --> 00:35:10.859
he'd never heard before it wasn't maze a

00:35:10.859 --> 00:35:14.280
song it wasn't maze B song and what the

00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.740
Rocks were doing in their dreams was

00:35:16.740 --> 00:35:19.980
creating new mazes

00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:22.740
because it makes sense because they're

00:35:22.740 --> 00:35:25.520
taking things from the Real Environment

00:35:25.520 --> 00:35:28.500
and saying well there's mazes in my

00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:31.020
environment one day I might see a maze

00:35:31.020 --> 00:35:32.400
like this

00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.460
let me run that Maze and so this

00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:39.380
actually explains this phenomenon

00:35:39.380 --> 00:35:43.740
of why scientists have always wondered

00:35:43.740 --> 00:35:45.079
why

00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:48.900
these rats learn keep learning faster

00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:51.020
and it's because

00:35:51.020 --> 00:35:53.700
they're anticipating potential

00:35:53.700 --> 00:35:56.880
environments now with humans it's it's

00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:02.220
pretty wild because we create

00:36:02.220 --> 00:36:05.099
we run simulations of simulations of

00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:07.500
simulations of simulation so the chances

00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:11.520
of us actually uh entering those

00:36:11.520 --> 00:36:14.460
environments gets gets

00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:16.859
quite improbable do you know what I'm

00:36:16.859 --> 00:36:19.619
saying we can we can run such

00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:21.240
crazy

00:36:21.240 --> 00:36:25.560
uh simulations but but that's that's the

00:36:25.560 --> 00:36:28.619
fundamental uh continuity and with

00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:33.900
animals with with how dreams are made so

00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:35.579
um

00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:38.040
yeah

00:36:38.040 --> 00:36:40.740
so there is a uh

00:36:40.740 --> 00:36:44.280
um a creative predictive act at that

00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.700
level so I'm I'm I'm purposely keeping

00:36:47.700 --> 00:36:50.760
it to the sensory motor level uh we can

00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.060
talk about dreams uh in terms of the

00:36:54.060 --> 00:36:55.140
amount we're going to talk about the

00:36:55.140 --> 00:36:56.880
imagination

00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:58.079
um

00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.660
um and intuition and and stuff like that

00:37:00.660 --> 00:37:03.540
but that's at the level of perception

00:37:03.540 --> 00:37:06.599
it's a virtual perception but uh that's

00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:08.760
that's certainly what happens how it

00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.900
functions in animals

00:37:16.020 --> 00:37:19.020
foreign

00:37:22.700 --> 00:37:26.160
just curious one last question could you

00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:30.780
test a human dream that brings a whole

00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:33.859
new level of to dreams having Rhythm

00:37:33.859 --> 00:37:38.040
right the sound could you do the same

00:37:38.040 --> 00:37:40.079
thing with humans would humans have a

00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:41.339
rhythm

00:37:41.339 --> 00:37:44.760
like a vocal Rhythm to their dreams

00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.160
oh yeah I mean you could put humans into

00:37:47.160 --> 00:37:50.160
fmri machines and see different Global

00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:51.920
processing

00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.579
they know a lot about what what happens

00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:57.300
um

00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:59.280
but I think we should take a holistic

00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.380
approach if you think about dreams this

00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:03.060
this we talked about this in the

00:38:03.060 --> 00:38:05.400
Psychedelic State itself and Altered

00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:06.420
States

00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:09.110
in in perception

00:38:09.110 --> 00:38:10.680
[Music]

00:38:10.680 --> 00:38:13.800
at this level uh the sensory motor level

00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.380
is tied into action and when you when

00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:18.540
you fall asleep you go into muscle

00:38:18.540 --> 00:38:20.220
paralysis

00:38:20.220 --> 00:38:23.460
right and so this is this is connected

00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:25.619
to the fact that you don't have external

00:38:25.619 --> 00:38:28.760
perception now we do sound

00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.880
stays quite active when we're sleeping

00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:34.859
smell stays quite active

00:38:34.859 --> 00:38:38.660
but the visual system gets starved

00:38:38.660 --> 00:38:41.700
and the visual systems very closely

00:38:41.700 --> 00:38:44.900
keyed into the body being moving and

00:38:44.900 --> 00:38:48.060
moving around so once you go into sleep

00:38:48.060 --> 00:38:49.500
paralysis

00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:52.859
the visual system is starved and and it

00:38:52.859 --> 00:38:55.380
gives it's decoupled from the external

00:38:55.380 --> 00:38:58.500
world and this is its chance to like

00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:02.339
like dance around and and and and play

00:39:02.339 --> 00:39:06.900
with virtual perception now

00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:12.599
and and so this relationship between

00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:13.560
um

00:39:13.560 --> 00:39:17.520
that the visual system goes offline much

00:39:17.520 --> 00:39:20.400
more uh

00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:23.099
fully than the auditory or the smell is

00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:25.859
why we don't have a lot of auditory or

00:39:25.859 --> 00:39:28.859
other

00:39:29.839 --> 00:39:32.940
Sensations and dreams normally I mean

00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:36.119
there's so so many different ways

00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.940
um but another thing that can happen and

00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:40.079
I don't know why we're talking about

00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:42.420
these weird things but

00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.480
another thing that happens that happened

00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:49.619
to me for years three years is that the

00:39:49.619 --> 00:39:52.680
visual system works with the body and

00:39:52.680 --> 00:39:55.859
the body has a sense of 3D space

00:39:55.859 --> 00:40:00.540
so the visual system understands that

00:40:00.540 --> 00:40:04.140
that it's participating

00:40:04.140 --> 00:40:07.980
that there there are objects in 3D space

00:40:07.980 --> 00:40:09.859
that are causally

00:40:09.859 --> 00:40:14.040
affecting me in in creating

00:40:14.040 --> 00:40:16.680
a perception and I'm going out and

00:40:16.680 --> 00:40:19.260
participating with that

00:40:19.260 --> 00:40:21.180
and

00:40:21.180 --> 00:40:23.400
I went through a period where I had

00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:29.400
these lucid dreams where they were still

00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.579
projected into 3D space so I could I

00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:35.339
could lay there my body was in sleep

00:40:35.339 --> 00:40:38.339
paralysis and I'd look out like I was

00:40:38.339 --> 00:40:41.700
looking at a drive-in theater

00:40:41.700 --> 00:40:45.359
and I could see my dream

00:40:45.359 --> 00:40:48.000
and I didn't have I mean I knew it was

00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.700
my dream but it was like those Sci-Fi

00:40:50.700 --> 00:40:52.859
movies where the guy sleeping and they

00:40:52.859 --> 00:40:54.540
put electrodes and they can see him

00:40:54.540 --> 00:40:58.980
dreaming on a monitor and so I I knew

00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:02.700
that was my dream but I didn't have any

00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:05.820
like I wasn't inside the dream like like

00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:08.880
when I saw myself running I didn't feel

00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.300
you know it was completely projected

00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:15.359
out there in three-dimensional space so

00:41:15.359 --> 00:41:19.020
there's many different ways in which the

00:41:19.020 --> 00:41:22.619
phenomenon can arise and and the point

00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:25.380
here is that

00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:28.500
what we're talking about right now is a

00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:31.160
phenomenological

00:41:31.160 --> 00:41:33.900
examination of perception

00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:37.680
and not an experiential so from the

00:41:37.680 --> 00:41:41.460
experiential we have to add more kinds

00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:46.140
of questions in like like uh is

00:41:46.140 --> 00:41:50.640
the is the body in body paralysis what

00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:53.640
is the holistic participation in in

00:41:53.640 --> 00:41:56.280
perception so

00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:57.300
um

00:41:57.300 --> 00:42:01.619
yeah so there's all kinds of but the the

00:42:01.619 --> 00:42:04.320
point to understand here is everything I

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:06.240
just described happens in Virtual

00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:07.859
perception

00:42:07.859 --> 00:42:10.339
which is

00:42:10.339 --> 00:42:13.260
decoupled from

00:42:13.260 --> 00:42:16.020
action in the world and external

00:42:16.020 --> 00:42:17.160
perception

00:42:17.160 --> 00:42:20.640
is evolved to partner with action in the

00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:22.560
world

00:42:22.560 --> 00:42:25.200
it's also why you have similar effects

00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:27.480
when you're meditating you put the body

00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:30.480
in a Lotus position you get it very very

00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:32.099
calm

00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:34.760
you enter a state where the body is

00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:37.740
derealized and then the phenomenology

00:42:37.740 --> 00:42:42.060
which is like dream space arises

00:42:42.060 --> 00:42:45.359
because you've decoupled it from action

00:42:45.359 --> 00:42:48.240
in the world so these postures

00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:50.760
themselves removed a holistic

00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:55.440
participation of external perception

00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:57.900
in augment

00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:00.300
virtual perceptions does that make sense

00:43:00.300 --> 00:43:02.280
what I just said I mean they're

00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.980
basically putting you into body

00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:07.819
paralysis

00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:11.339
reducing the amount of stimulus just

00:43:11.339 --> 00:43:13.859
like what when you're going to sleep and

00:43:13.859 --> 00:43:16.200
then a lot of the phenomenology in some

00:43:16.200 --> 00:43:19.400
of these meditative States is is

00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:24.180
is very Dynamic virtual perceptions

00:43:24.180 --> 00:43:26.280
but that doesn't mean it's closer to God

00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:30.060
it's just a highly stylized practice

00:43:30.060 --> 00:43:32.880
um so so that's the metaphysics of

00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:34.859
experience I just described the whole

00:43:34.859 --> 00:43:37.079
experience someone's going through in

00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.960
meditation versus just describing the

00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:41.579
phenomenology

00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:44.460
which is I was looking at it and then it

00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:46.859
disappeared and then light spewed out of

00:43:46.859 --> 00:43:49.500
it that's the phenomenology it doesn't

00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:51.960
take into account

00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.859
the ex The Experience itself the whole

00:43:55.859 --> 00:43:59.420
the whole experience of it

00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:02.040
yeah and that liminal place is really

00:44:02.040 --> 00:44:04.140
interesting the hypnagogic and

00:44:04.140 --> 00:44:06.359
hypnagogic or whatever yeah

00:44:06.359 --> 00:44:08.280
in that sensation of feeling like you're

00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:09.240
falling

00:44:09.240 --> 00:44:11.940
in um I've been trying to do those the

00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:14.460
posture in that liminal space before I

00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:16.980
sleep and I'm still playing with it but

00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:19.560
um you mean the gays posture yeah yeah

00:44:19.560 --> 00:44:22.380
yeah keep trying to do that

00:44:22.380 --> 00:44:23.220
um

00:44:23.220 --> 00:44:24.960
is

00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:28.880
eyes closed but but

00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:31.880
not shut

00:44:33.240 --> 00:44:35.940
yeah you have to feel like you're really

00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:38.220
looking all the energy is going out but

00:44:38.220 --> 00:44:39.900
your eyes are closed

00:44:39.900 --> 00:44:43.520
and uh yeah

00:44:49.140 --> 00:44:53.460
but understanding also this feeling like

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:55.800
like I did that little I did that little

00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:58.560
video did you guys get to see it Joe and

00:44:58.560 --> 00:45:02.160
Kate yeah that feeling when

00:45:02.160 --> 00:45:06.060
you switch from looking at the object to

00:45:06.060 --> 00:45:09.900
looking at your mind

00:45:09.900 --> 00:45:13.500
it feels differently the energy is not

00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:17.000
going it's like

00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:21.500
yeah anyways Katie

00:45:21.720 --> 00:45:23.880
sure um is this

00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:25.680
is is everything that you're talking

00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:28.020
about the Gaze posture and everything in

00:45:28.020 --> 00:45:29.280
this video

00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:33.060
no I had I had this great conversation

00:45:33.060 --> 00:45:35.400
with you last time and we were talking

00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.200
about when you look at the Rock at a

00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:38.940
certain point you're no longer looking

00:45:38.940 --> 00:45:40.859
at the Rock you're looking at your mind

00:45:40.859 --> 00:45:44.460
and I did a little graphic

00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:48.359
I don't know 15 not you know 45 second

00:45:48.359 --> 00:45:50.220
video

00:45:50.220 --> 00:45:53.220
awesome to illustrate that it's in the

00:45:53.220 --> 00:45:56.700
comments I think of last the I recorded

00:45:56.700 --> 00:45:58.500
the video and then I think I put it in

00:45:58.500 --> 00:46:00.540
the comments or something I'm not sure

00:46:00.540 --> 00:46:03.540
yeah

00:46:03.540 --> 00:46:05.460
um we'll check that out after that yeah

00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:08.160
but I think we had a great conversation

00:46:08.160 --> 00:46:11.220
and I think it landed but it's it's so

00:46:11.220 --> 00:46:14.400
conceptual and and I drew uh I actually

00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:16.020
said there's like

00:46:16.020 --> 00:46:18.420
like you're looking at the Rock and then

00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:20.880
you get the limit of that you can see

00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.460
more detail and you can actually use a

00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:26.400
microscope and continue looking at the

00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.440
rock with the help of the microscope so

00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.319
that would be visual density

00:46:31.319 --> 00:46:33.599
and then we talked about but at a

00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:35.280
certain point you're starting to look at

00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:36.359
your mind

00:46:36.359 --> 00:46:39.180
I also added you could look at the Rock

00:46:39.180 --> 00:46:41.520
and at a certain point exit looking at

00:46:41.520 --> 00:46:44.640
the Rock and start making meaning oh the

00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:46.800
rock is like you know you start to move

00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:50.240
into psychic imaginative meaning and and

00:46:50.240 --> 00:46:53.220
so that there's visual density and then

00:46:53.220 --> 00:46:56.220
there's other types of densities that

00:46:56.220 --> 00:46:58.200
you're moving into but the interesting

00:46:58.200 --> 00:47:00.720
question which was fantastic that we had

00:47:00.720 --> 00:47:03.839
this conversation is how is it that we

00:47:03.839 --> 00:47:06.720
can do that like we know how the eyes

00:47:06.720 --> 00:47:09.180
zoom in and out the lenses go like this

00:47:09.180 --> 00:47:12.420
and the ones like what's happening when

00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:14.940
we switch from visual density to looking

00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:17.640
at your mind like I know what it feels

00:47:17.640 --> 00:47:20.400
like like I know like first it's like

00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.160
this and then it's like that it's a

00:47:23.160 --> 00:47:24.240
posture

00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:27.180
I call it a posture

00:47:27.180 --> 00:47:30.240
but that's very fascinating to me the

00:47:30.240 --> 00:47:33.599
micro phenomenology of when that posture

00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:36.660
switches is this the posture that you're

00:47:36.660 --> 00:47:39.420
talking about yeah well

00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:45.420
I I think so like like there's there's

00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:47.640
we talk about the posture which is

00:47:47.640 --> 00:47:50.339
called away where you're actually

00:47:50.339 --> 00:47:54.560
looking at thoughts you could be

00:47:54.720 --> 00:47:58.680
absorbed into them versus there there is

00:47:58.680 --> 00:48:00.960
like the energies going out of your

00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.420
sensory organs and

00:48:03.420 --> 00:48:05.880
you know it's like if you're really

00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:08.099
scared and you're really looking hard

00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:11.040
for like what is happening you know you

00:48:11.040 --> 00:48:13.740
can feel the energy going out and you

00:48:13.740 --> 00:48:16.079
can take a posture where nothing's

00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:20.420
happening in the environment but your

00:48:20.420 --> 00:48:23.520
exaggerating the energy going out out of

00:48:23.520 --> 00:48:27.560
your eyes out of your ears

00:48:27.619 --> 00:48:29.579
and

00:48:29.579 --> 00:48:33.300
um then we can change that to the

00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:36.180
um away posture which I call away

00:48:36.180 --> 00:48:38.460
because people a lot of times they have

00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:40.200
the jam board when they look at their

00:48:40.200 --> 00:48:42.359
mind it's up here somewhere

00:48:42.359 --> 00:48:44.579
and then the in posture is like where

00:48:44.579 --> 00:48:46.740
shame goes like

00:48:46.740 --> 00:48:49.260
this is where the psyche lives so I talk

00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:51.119
about them as postures

00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:53.700
uh those are exaggerations the one I

00:48:53.700 --> 00:48:57.720
just did but but it's like um Aaron said

00:48:57.720 --> 00:49:01.020
he said my eyes weren't moving anymore

00:49:01.020 --> 00:49:03.300
but behind my head

00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:06.480
the visual system was moving like like

00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.020
how do you know that how do you know now

00:49:10.020 --> 00:49:13.859
I'm I'm actually looking at my mind

00:49:13.859 --> 00:49:16.500
looking at the phenomena inside my head

00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:19.560
like it's a feeling that you can get you

00:49:19.560 --> 00:49:22.440
can get familiar with

00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:24.560
um

00:49:27.240 --> 00:49:31.520
but I haven't really I haven't really

00:49:31.560 --> 00:49:34.619
articulated it myself you know

00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:36.900
it was a great conversation yeah at some

00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:39.540
point you're not you're not doing visual

00:49:39.540 --> 00:49:40.800
density

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:43.319
you need a microscope or something but

00:49:43.319 --> 00:49:46.560
now you're looking at

00:49:46.560 --> 00:49:49.440
your mind and so

00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:51.300
which is you know we look at our mind

00:49:51.300 --> 00:49:54.420
all the time if if you and I were

00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:56.339
talking about

00:49:56.339 --> 00:49:58.619
oh what do you think red curtains here

00:49:58.619 --> 00:49:59.940
we're both

00:49:59.940 --> 00:50:03.000
looking we're sharing a simulation right

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:05.700
so it

00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:08.940
it's not that extraordinary to look at

00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:12.200
your mind uh

00:50:12.200 --> 00:50:15.060
can I ask some distinction because

00:50:15.060 --> 00:50:17.760
you're saying look at the mind

00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:20.220
and and to me look through the mind

00:50:20.220 --> 00:50:22.800
because look at the minds

00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:24.720
I don't know it was just just to clarify

00:50:24.720 --> 00:50:27.480
for me for example if I'm noticing then

00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:29.280
I'm looking at the mind because then

00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.280
there's the the noticing but as it

00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:35.460
happens the way that it was

00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.859
like when the sensory you're saying look

00:50:37.859 --> 00:50:40.020
when the sensory organs are going out

00:50:40.020 --> 00:50:43.079
then there is the the looking at and

00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:45.480
then at some point

00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:48.240
there's a communicate like like the way

00:50:48.240 --> 00:50:50.099
they I was making sense of it is like

00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.680
there is a communication there is this

00:50:51.680 --> 00:50:54.140
interpenetration of whatever

00:50:54.140 --> 00:50:58.380
the the Heat or the life or whatever of

00:50:58.380 --> 00:51:01.800
what I'm looking at and then and then it

00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:04.260
it triggers something and then I'm not

00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:07.220
looking at the mind I'm I'm

00:51:07.220 --> 00:51:09.119
co-inhabiting it like there's something

00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:11.280
that's happening

00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:13.260
and then um and then there's something

00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:15.599
else if I look

00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.540
at it I don't know it doesn't make sense

00:51:18.540 --> 00:51:20.760
yeah so we can slow down this is all

00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.859
really good perception is a big deal

00:51:22.859 --> 00:51:26.160
it's it's it's there's a lot to explore

00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:28.020
here

00:51:28.020 --> 00:51:30.420
so

00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:34.940
when I talk about direct perception

00:51:35.839 --> 00:51:40.619
so let's take the example uh uh apostle

00:51:40.619 --> 00:51:43.800
was saying I look at Iraq at first is

00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:46.079
I'm not really looking at it's just rock

00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:48.059
it's a label now I'm looking at the

00:51:48.059 --> 00:51:50.099
detail now I'm looking at more detail

00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:52.859
and then at a certain point I can see

00:51:52.859 --> 00:51:56.220
the refresh rate of my brain so the rock

00:51:56.220 --> 00:51:58.200
looks like it's coming in and out of

00:51:58.200 --> 00:52:01.619
existence but I'm looking at the refresh

00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:03.740
rate of my brain

00:52:03.740 --> 00:52:06.359
perception actually

00:52:06.359 --> 00:52:09.180
it needs a break like if you stare at a

00:52:09.180 --> 00:52:11.280
DOT on a piece of paper it disappears

00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:12.900
for a little second and comes back

00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:15.180
online okay so at that point he's

00:52:15.180 --> 00:52:18.359
looking at his mind he's not looking The

00:52:18.359 --> 00:52:21.180
Rock isn't coming in and out of

00:52:21.180 --> 00:52:22.800
existence

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.260
he's looking at the refresh rate of his

00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:26.460
mind

00:52:26.460 --> 00:52:28.500
now I would say that's a direct

00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:31.319
perception he's directly appreciating

00:52:31.319 --> 00:52:35.240
the refresh rate of his mind

00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:38.760
the question is what is the organ of

00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.240
perception

00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:46.280
that's an interesting question

00:52:48.380 --> 00:52:53.720
honey do you know the Zen sense practice

00:52:53.720 --> 00:52:58.680
and post funding see here yes yes and

00:52:58.680 --> 00:53:01.140
that's that's what I wrote in the in the

00:53:01.140 --> 00:53:03.240
video I said in the video he goes from

00:53:03.240 --> 00:53:07.559
seeing out to seeing in exactly and also

00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:10.079
seeing out and staying in meditation but

00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:14.220
also simply seeing hearing

00:53:14.220 --> 00:53:16.619
feeling and bringing those Sensations

00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:19.740
down right and then it's just beautiful

00:53:19.740 --> 00:53:22.980
how those you ask that question and that

00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:25.500
is such a fundamental question of design

00:53:25.500 --> 00:53:30.119
practices and meditation so like what

00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:33.420
senses guide us all of them none of them

00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:34.559
like

00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:38.280
but they work together yeah I mean so

00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:42.319
there's some value into isolating them

00:53:42.319 --> 00:53:46.619
but the real value is I mean I would

00:53:46.619 --> 00:53:49.500
argue that ordinary waking reality when

00:53:49.500 --> 00:53:52.020
they're all working together and helping

00:53:52.020 --> 00:53:55.140
each other out is the highest the more

00:53:55.140 --> 00:53:58.040
valuable state

00:53:58.200 --> 00:54:00.260
um

00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:11.040
yeah but I think we've gotten farther

00:54:11.040 --> 00:54:12.720
than that I mean I've been to shins and

00:54:12.720 --> 00:54:14.880
Youngs a couple of times through some of

00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:19.140
his weekend Retreats and it's like

00:54:19.140 --> 00:54:22.319
I'm I'm seeing in because I'm noticing I

00:54:22.319 --> 00:54:26.900
have thoughts that's different than

00:54:27.740 --> 00:54:31.559
directly perceiving the refresh rate of

00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:34.200
my mind that's the organ of perception

00:54:34.200 --> 00:54:36.359
beautiful

00:54:36.359 --> 00:54:39.480
that is the next step that's what I

00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:42.720
notice I have had I I have thoughts the

00:54:42.720 --> 00:54:46.280
noticing is actually behind the thought

00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:49.680
so I'm actually noticing the thought of

00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:52.619
having a thought yes

00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:55.460
so

00:54:57.359 --> 00:55:00.300
yeah so all this language I think is

00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:02.940
helpful for different people who who've

00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:06.900
done different experiences and

00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:09.020
um

00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:13.619
but I think the point that I would like

00:55:13.619 --> 00:55:17.660
to make which is very hard

00:55:17.700 --> 00:55:21.380
which I always fail at

00:55:22.020 --> 00:55:25.619
is that if we notice

00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:28.020
how

00:55:28.020 --> 00:55:30.540
there's something we're in a kind of a

00:55:30.540 --> 00:55:33.599
predicam predicament as a community I

00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:35.460
mean we're kind of an Eclectic Community

00:55:35.460 --> 00:55:37.619
you know we're all like

00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:40.020
there's been some shinsen young and done

00:55:40.020 --> 00:55:42.900
some psycho Technologies and stuff

00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:45.900
but part of the problem is this other

00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:48.300
experience that Susan was talking about

00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:51.660
is really been stolen from us

00:55:51.660 --> 00:55:54.980
we don't have a lot of

00:55:54.980 --> 00:55:57.960
experiences in the actual physical world

00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:02.579
we don't have a lot of perceptual

00:56:05.059 --> 00:56:07.619
experiences in the actual physical world

00:56:07.619 --> 00:56:11.339
and I've had many different experiences

00:56:11.339 --> 00:56:13.339
and

00:56:13.339 --> 00:56:16.619
when your external senses come online

00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:20.760
and you perceive

00:56:21.720 --> 00:56:25.400
the natural world it's just

00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:27.780
beats anything

00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:30.960
that happens in the virtual Realm

00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.540
and it's immediate and it's direct and

00:56:33.540 --> 00:56:35.700
you feel like you belong and you know

00:56:35.700 --> 00:56:38.160
why you belong it's just so validating

00:56:38.160 --> 00:56:40.760
experience

00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:45.059
then you know what you're made of

00:56:45.059 --> 00:56:49.400
and you know what the animals see

00:56:53.059 --> 00:56:56.280
and it goes with that mythim

00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:59.400
quote Everything Seen perfectly is loved

00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.859
we spend all our time we're very

00:57:01.859 --> 00:57:05.280
fascinated with our internal world and I

00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:08.900
would argue that there's

00:57:09.670 --> 00:57:11.640
[Music]

00:57:11.640 --> 00:57:16.460
it's extremely diminished reality

00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:24.300
Anna

00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:28.980
thanks Bonnie uh you were talking about

00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:30.780
it and I had a question about it so

00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:32.760
that's funny how it all interconnects

00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:34.140
and

00:57:34.140 --> 00:57:34.859
um

00:57:34.859 --> 00:57:36.900
a couple of days ago we had a cyclone

00:57:36.900 --> 00:57:40.200
Cyclone Gabriel Here

00:57:40.200 --> 00:57:43.140
and I was thinking about it what because

00:57:43.140 --> 00:57:45.660
it's the first time I was experiencing a

00:57:45.660 --> 00:57:47.460
cyclone here in New Zealand and it got

00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:49.319
from level three to level two and we

00:57:49.319 --> 00:57:52.020
were very unsure and thinking about it

00:57:52.020 --> 00:57:55.079
and you know looking at pictures how

00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:57.420
what will the wind be how much force

00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:59.460
will it have and you know I could see

00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:01.760
myself thinking about it and

00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:04.859
researching it and wanting to know and

00:58:04.859 --> 00:58:06.960
when the storm was here or the Cyclone

00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:08.579
was here

00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:11.520
I felt well I'm not going to think about

00:58:11.520 --> 00:58:13.380
it and witness it I'm going to be the

00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:14.220
storm

00:58:14.220 --> 00:58:16.680
so I lay down on the floor

00:58:16.680 --> 00:58:20.280
and I all of a sudden I embodied the

00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:21.900
whole not I could not embody the whole

00:58:21.900 --> 00:58:24.960
Cyclone but I I was part of the cyclone

00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:28.619
and I felt I felt it's love and its care

00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:31.559
and and it's destructiveness how it just

00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:33.599
rubbed away all the beautiful fruits we

00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:35.819
have here but it was part of the cycle

00:58:35.819 --> 00:58:38.819
or the power of the its Force

00:58:38.819 --> 00:58:41.819
and it was so beautiful

00:58:41.819 --> 00:58:44.819
and by using the word beautiful I

00:58:44.819 --> 00:58:47.819
already make I'm creating something that

00:58:47.819 --> 00:58:50.299
it is not so I'm taking that word away

00:58:50.299 --> 00:58:54.180
but by experiencing that cyclone in that

00:58:54.180 --> 00:58:56.579
moment while it just blasted almost a

00:58:56.579 --> 00:58:59.700
roof away and and seeing the impact but

00:58:59.700 --> 00:59:02.339
that's the story but it was so simple

00:59:02.339 --> 00:59:05.160
being it laying on the floor connecting

00:59:05.160 --> 00:59:08.040
with the ground being Earth and being

00:59:08.040 --> 00:59:10.640
part of it

00:59:11.180 --> 00:59:15.420
yeah and I was I was

00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:17.760
and I could be in Stillness well

00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:19.319
actually everything was present and

00:59:19.319 --> 00:59:22.079
online so both was happening

00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:23.819
yeah

00:59:23.819 --> 00:59:27.359
that's very similar to what uh Mari

00:59:27.359 --> 00:59:28.680
Andrea

00:59:28.680 --> 00:59:30.180
said

00:59:30.180 --> 00:59:34.559
um if you uh on on Saturday she's from

00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:37.380
Venezuela and she said you know they

00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:39.540
they went through some rough times and

00:59:39.540 --> 00:59:41.760
the electricity would be out and at

00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:44.339
first she was nervous and the whole

00:59:44.339 --> 00:59:45.599
story

00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:49.079
and then she got so she would walk out

00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:50.780
at night

00:59:50.780 --> 00:59:54.780
and reconnecting

00:59:55.859 --> 00:59:57.740
and and

00:59:57.740 --> 01:00:01.460
noticing how

01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:06.180
much of this possibility Modern Life has

01:00:06.180 --> 01:00:08.960
stolen from us

01:00:09.660 --> 01:00:11.780
um

01:00:13.619 --> 01:00:17.940
and the and the possibility that

01:00:17.940 --> 01:00:20.460
there's more gifts and benefits on the

01:00:20.460 --> 01:00:22.859
other side of the crisis than than on

01:00:22.859 --> 01:00:25.280
this side

01:00:25.319 --> 01:00:26.099
um

01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:28.440
I think that

01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:34.020
we are so engrossed in our interior life

01:00:34.020 --> 01:00:37.500
much of which is virtual perception

01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:41.220
because we're in we've been impoverished

01:00:41.220 --> 01:00:43.140
of

01:00:43.140 --> 01:00:47.839
this these other Realms of experience

01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:13.380
and of course I think you know

01:01:13.380 --> 01:01:16.260
when you look at as a culture what do we

01:01:16.260 --> 01:01:18.900
fight for and what do we

01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:21.599
discount we discount the natural world

01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:24.140
and we

01:01:25.099 --> 01:01:28.460
fight for

01:01:30.720 --> 01:01:32.220
I don't know if we fight for anything

01:01:32.220 --> 01:01:36.299
but but we're willing to

01:01:36.299 --> 01:01:39.180
trade the natural world for

01:01:39.180 --> 01:01:42.180
some other kind of reality

01:01:42.180 --> 01:01:44.339
because we don't experience what it what

01:01:44.339 --> 01:01:47.180
it can offer

01:01:48.780 --> 01:01:51.359
and I can see Bonnie the way you're

01:01:51.359 --> 01:01:53.579
structuring this for me and how it

01:01:53.579 --> 01:01:56.339
actually has an impact on my being is

01:01:56.339 --> 01:02:00.680
putting these words or anchor points

01:02:00.680 --> 01:02:03.720
in my space or in the space and

01:02:03.720 --> 01:02:06.180
therefore I can stay anchored while I'm

01:02:06.180 --> 01:02:07.740
expressing

01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:10.859
to others and that's the way how I feel

01:02:10.859 --> 01:02:12.420
I start to fight

01:02:12.420 --> 01:02:14.700
and that feels so empowering so thank

01:02:14.700 --> 01:02:17.180
you for that

01:02:17.650 --> 01:02:20.749
[Music]

01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:24.000
I feel like in your sessions I'm able to

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:28.319
observe the self that is observing the

01:02:28.319 --> 01:02:31.680
inner world you bring that and I'm able

01:02:31.680 --> 01:02:35.400
to synthesize and reintegrate the

01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:39.839
big eye with the with the inner World

01:02:39.839 --> 01:02:41.819
um similar experience just different

01:02:41.819 --> 01:02:46.700
words I guess too just yeah

01:02:50.640 --> 01:02:54.720
what you said was extremely powerful how

01:02:54.720 --> 01:02:57.660
we're so busy in our inner worlds

01:02:57.660 --> 01:03:01.619
because we lack that was profound for me

01:03:01.619 --> 01:03:05.339
for my experience thank you and my the

01:03:05.339 --> 01:03:08.220
way I've been perceiving

01:03:08.220 --> 01:03:10.559
reality

01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:14.220
um as an artist too I I was just looking

01:03:14.220 --> 01:03:16.260
at this beautiful

01:03:16.260 --> 01:03:20.280
um beautiful uh Stone pencil holder that

01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:22.440
I have and I realized

01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:24.119
I'm

01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:26.940
fabricating this magic reality in my

01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:29.579
head where I came from what it I bought

01:03:29.579 --> 01:03:32.880
it in an antique store and let's and how

01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:35.640
I was able to sit back and just see it

01:03:35.640 --> 01:03:39.180
as this beautiful stone a bunch of holes

01:03:39.180 --> 01:03:41.819
in it and I was able to take a deep

01:03:41.819 --> 01:03:42.960
breath

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:46.579
um yeah so it's kind of

01:03:46.579 --> 01:03:50.339
grounding to know that things just are

01:03:50.339 --> 01:03:52.400
what they are

01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:55.619
and always after these sessions I come

01:03:55.619 --> 01:03:59.640
back to that state of awareness and

01:03:59.640 --> 01:04:01.910
perception and it's pretty amazing

01:04:01.910 --> 01:04:03.780
[Music]

01:04:03.780 --> 01:04:05.819
yeah and again I want to caution

01:04:05.819 --> 01:04:08.520
everyone the way this these courses are

01:04:08.520 --> 01:04:11.520
this is not the whole story this is the

01:04:11.520 --> 01:04:14.819
story from the sensory motor perception

01:04:14.819 --> 01:04:19.619
and so we try to really understand the

01:04:19.619 --> 01:04:22.319
story from sensory mode of perception I

01:04:22.319 --> 01:04:23.880
mean we'll eventually also talk about

01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:27.900
pure abstractions they're cool too

01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:34.140
um so so but to just to

01:04:34.140 --> 01:04:37.140
um really

01:04:38.700 --> 01:04:42.839
be able to have that it's very

01:04:42.839 --> 01:04:45.359
fundamental to our health and well-being

01:04:45.359 --> 01:04:48.540
and the way we respond to the planet and

01:04:48.540 --> 01:04:53.099
things in general and this should be not

01:04:53.099 --> 01:04:56.400
taken for granted as part of a ecology

01:04:56.400 --> 01:05:01.079
or practices or or or where we want to

01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:05.640
pay attention to as as people

01:05:05.640 --> 01:05:07.339
foreign

01:05:07.339 --> 01:05:11.220
much less be told that

01:05:11.220 --> 01:05:14.160
everything is a simulation and you don't

01:05:14.160 --> 01:05:16.260
forget that we don't have any access to

01:05:16.260 --> 01:05:18.660
that anyways and the self is not real

01:05:18.660 --> 01:05:21.720
and reality is a simulation and and all

01:05:21.720 --> 01:05:24.119
this stuff I I really

01:05:24.119 --> 01:05:26.240
um

01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:27.720
yeah

01:05:27.720 --> 01:05:31.079
I'm reminded bunny when you're talking

01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:33.000
about like separating all the senses how

01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:34.799
they work together but sometimes it's

01:05:34.799 --> 01:05:37.319
useful to separate H and when I had

01:05:37.319 --> 01:05:39.960
covid and for a lot for a month after I

01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:42.720
didn't have the sense of smell and what

01:05:42.720 --> 01:05:45.480
they actually did to my experience of

01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:47.640
reality and that I was even Reading

01:05:47.640 --> 01:05:49.980
literature like from Rudolph Steiner and

01:05:49.980 --> 01:05:52.500
all of that because I was like ah I

01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:55.440
actually feel self like self-centered

01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:58.140
like my experience was that the world

01:05:58.140 --> 01:06:01.319
was not penetrating me and me the world

01:06:01.319 --> 01:06:04.619
and because I would nothing smelled so

01:06:04.619 --> 01:06:07.380
it's just one and that you know I I

01:06:07.380 --> 01:06:09.780
don't know how exactly all these fit but

01:06:09.780 --> 01:06:11.460
each of them and all of them working

01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:13.579
together in different

01:06:13.579 --> 01:06:16.200
configurations and how

01:06:16.200 --> 01:06:18.680
yeah that informs experiences

01:06:18.680 --> 01:06:22.640
fascinating to me is yeah

01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:27.000
yeah you know because it's ever present

01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:29.280
we take it for granted like my husband

01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:32.339
is recently gone deaf it's really bad

01:06:32.339 --> 01:06:35.160
now and

01:06:35.160 --> 01:06:36.660
it's not

01:06:36.660 --> 01:06:39.299
it takes more than just sound away from

01:06:39.299 --> 01:06:41.339
you

01:06:41.339 --> 01:06:44.160
or even just conversation because we can

01:06:44.160 --> 01:06:46.140
converse I have a

01:06:46.140 --> 01:06:48.420
thing on the smartphone we talk and it

01:06:48.420 --> 01:06:49.260
just

01:06:49.260 --> 01:06:53.400
it's his sense of move moving in there

01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:57.599
just give me a few minutes okay

01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:02.160
and and cognitively he has to completely

01:07:02.160 --> 01:07:05.059
like relearn how to use tools and stuff

01:07:05.059 --> 01:07:09.900
like it's a huge deal how much now it's

01:07:09.900 --> 01:07:11.940
different if you were born deaf because

01:07:11.940 --> 01:07:14.059
then the whole

01:07:14.059 --> 01:07:16.339
synaptic thing

01:07:16.339 --> 01:07:18.660
co-evolves with your movement in space

01:07:18.660 --> 01:07:20.160
but

01:07:20.160 --> 01:07:21.900
um

01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:24.619
yeah

01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:29.819
and of course a lot of what we know in

01:07:29.819 --> 01:07:31.619
terms of the Neuroscience of perception

01:07:31.619 --> 01:07:34.920
have are due to exactly this like

01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:38.520
lesions and strokes and and so we get to

01:07:38.520 --> 01:07:41.220
see when you take a certain aspect of

01:07:41.220 --> 01:07:45.059
this complex participation away you can

01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:48.180
see uh you you can understand the

01:07:48.180 --> 01:07:50.520
complexity of what makes the whole whole

01:07:50.520 --> 01:07:53.119
thing work

01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:14.880
any other comments or questions that we

01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:17.660
might be holding

01:08:20.580 --> 01:08:22.920
you know a lot of what we do here at the

01:08:22.920 --> 01:08:26.520
pop-up School Is We Begin we be like

01:08:26.520 --> 01:08:28.500
each one of these models we just

01:08:28.500 --> 01:08:31.560
beginning a conversation and if you're

01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:34.560
really interested in it there's so much

01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:37.580
I mean I've been reading yet again

01:08:37.580 --> 01:08:40.580
there's so much

01:08:40.580 --> 01:08:43.859
movement in the on these topics in terms

01:08:43.859 --> 01:08:44.699
of

01:08:44.699 --> 01:08:47.880
contemporary uh neuroscience and the

01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:51.359
philosophy of perception and stuff so

01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:53.239
um

01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:56.460
yeah there's there's there's a lot of

01:08:56.460 --> 01:08:59.520
good resources and even like the fact

01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:01.560
that a lot of us have touched base with

01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:04.859
Shenzhen young this is makes the ability

01:09:04.859 --> 01:09:07.080
to talk about these things

01:09:07.080 --> 01:09:09.060
uh

01:09:09.060 --> 01:09:11.640
we have a lot more capacity than we did

01:09:11.640 --> 01:09:14.900
like 10 years ago

01:09:25.380 --> 01:09:28.380
puppy

01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:40.560
okay my friends thank you so much it's a

01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:45.299
great conversation and uh yeah there's a

01:09:45.299 --> 01:09:46.739
lot to

01:09:46.739 --> 01:09:49.020
a lot to talk about Sam we didn't get to

01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:50.160
your thing

01:09:50.160 --> 01:09:52.199
shoot

01:09:52.199 --> 01:09:54.000
um anyways maybe I'll write something

01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:55.260
about it

01:09:55.260 --> 01:09:57.679
thanks everyone

01:09:57.679 --> 01:09:59.880
Bonnie where can we find that little

01:09:59.880 --> 01:10:01.920
video you made

01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:05.280
uh it's I recently posted it as a

01:10:05.280 --> 01:10:07.800
comment in the pop-up school you know

01:10:07.800 --> 01:10:11.340
what I'll do I'll put it on as a post

01:10:11.340 --> 01:10:13.860
okay awesome so then you'll see it yeah

01:10:13.860 --> 01:10:16.679
okay bye-bye bye everyone thank you

01:10:16.679 --> 01:10:18.980
bunny



## Cohort 3

00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:06.259
look at all these faces

00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:10.880
some new faces hi Howard nice to see you

00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:15.560
this is now a veteran uh

00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:19.500
Magdalena is Sarah Kate's there

00:00:19.500 --> 00:00:21.119
um

00:00:21.119 --> 00:00:22.380
awesome

00:00:22.380 --> 00:00:23.699
okay

00:00:23.699 --> 00:00:27.060
so this is I think the third cohort in

00:00:27.060 --> 00:00:30.240
the perception cycle

00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:33.600
and we have the same design that we had

00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:39.480
before which means I frame some of the

00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:41.820
conversation for the first up into the

00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:44.520
quarter hour and then we go into

00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.780
breakout groups for 45 minutes and some

00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:51.480
of you have been working quite closely

00:00:51.480 --> 00:00:55.680
with the material some of you are new

00:00:55.680 --> 00:01:00.239
um to the material and so when you go in

00:01:00.239 --> 00:01:02.280
your breakout group it works really well

00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:04.619
because you will be able to ask

00:01:04.619 --> 00:01:09.060
questions and kind of be a newbie and

00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:11.760
there will be people that maybe have

00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.040
already worked through some of these

00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:16.140
questions but there's always new

00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:18.420
questions new directions people want to

00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:21.200
take it always there's always new blood

00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:26.520
and the topic is is not exhaustible I

00:01:26.520 --> 00:01:28.320
mean I don't I don't think there are any

00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:31.320
there's no final answers in this kind of

00:01:31.320 --> 00:01:34.280
inquiry

00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:35.939
so

00:01:35.939 --> 00:01:39.299
um before I get started I was just

00:01:39.299 --> 00:01:42.000
wondering if there's any questions or

00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:46.740
comments or requests

00:01:46.740 --> 00:01:48.540
um that

00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:52.920
have come in since the we started this

00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.500
cycle is there any

00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:59.280
um like broad overview uh question yeah

00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:00.780
Claudia

00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:02.759
yeah just a question around the

00:02:02.759 --> 00:02:04.439
definition of perception

00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.860
um and whether it includes interior

00:02:07.860 --> 00:02:10.200
kind of Body Sensations are we including

00:02:10.200 --> 00:02:12.959
that or are we focusing on

00:02:12.959 --> 00:02:17.640
kind of you know seeing out hearing out

00:02:17.640 --> 00:02:20.720
very good question

00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:24.480
there's two parts to the

00:02:24.480 --> 00:02:26.000
in general

00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:30.239
my work was primarily in talking about

00:02:30.239 --> 00:02:32.400
external perception

00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.480
and noticing how that's been

00:02:35.480 --> 00:02:39.900
problematized and so we can think of uh

00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:43.080
the problem situation as the same people

00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.140
think that external perception

00:02:46.140 --> 00:02:49.680
is not not is always mediated thinks

00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:52.019
that like a dog can have external

00:02:52.019 --> 00:02:54.000
perception that they're actually

00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:56.640
smelling something and not smelling a

00:02:56.640 --> 00:02:58.860
simulation or representation in their

00:02:58.860 --> 00:02:59.640
head

00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:02.940
and this is actually interesting because

00:03:02.940 --> 00:03:05.400
we know that animals can simulate the

00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:07.680
environment so

00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.720
um so those are external perceptions and

00:03:12.720 --> 00:03:17.459
um and then we have this thing called

00:03:17.459 --> 00:03:19.860
internal perception seeing in like

00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:24.480
images in my head this is uh you know

00:03:24.480 --> 00:03:27.379
filled with all kinds of variety

00:03:27.379 --> 00:03:33.300
and the paper argues that you can have a

00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:35.159
direct perception of your internal

00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.220
perceptions when you're aware of them

00:03:38.220 --> 00:03:40.980
and the question is what is the organ of

00:03:40.980 --> 00:03:42.780
perception this is an interesting

00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:45.599
question that the Scholastics of

00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.500
philosophers have fought over forever

00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:51.840
but the idea is if you're aware of what

00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.720
you're participating with you can look

00:03:54.720 --> 00:03:56.700
at it directly and sometimes you're not

00:03:56.700 --> 00:03:59.099
aware you're just lost in thought so

00:03:59.099 --> 00:04:01.980
you're not actually experiencing

00:04:01.980 --> 00:04:04.980
the perception of your internal Eternal

00:04:04.980 --> 00:04:07.400
thoughts

00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:12.000
um so we're working with both but one of

00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.139
the claims that

00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:20.760
we're making or one of the biases or uh

00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:23.160
maybe what what can I I could say is

00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.560
because most of the literature and most

00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.259
of the attention is paid on internal

00:04:28.259 --> 00:04:29.639
perceptions

00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.680
I would like to make a case that we're

00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:34.500
really missing out because we spend so

00:04:34.500 --> 00:04:36.419
much of our time there

00:04:36.419 --> 00:04:42.000
and there's equally if not more

00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.960
to understand and explore

00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:48.000
in external perception if we really

00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:50.880
understood how to relate to external

00:04:50.880 --> 00:04:52.860
perceptions that would have actually

00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:56.280
been robbed of the richness in that area

00:04:56.280 --> 00:04:59.880
because we lived in you know mental

00:04:59.880 --> 00:05:03.000
space our late stage capitalist

00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:05.699
Information Technology

00:05:05.699 --> 00:05:07.199
um and so

00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.020
now I I think last time I was kind of

00:05:10.020 --> 00:05:13.139
trying to say try to spend more time

00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:15.300
time on that it's difficult because

00:05:15.300 --> 00:05:18.479
we're already if we were only in

00:05:18.479 --> 00:05:21.120
external perception in this raw data

00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:24.000
form right now we would be like a cat

00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.520
looking at this screen we would not be

00:05:26.520 --> 00:05:28.740
projecting that there's people on the

00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:32.060
screen you know there's so much

00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:36.360
elaboration we have to add to have this

00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:42.419
kind of experience so the medium itself

00:05:42.419 --> 00:05:45.660
takes us in in that direction

00:05:45.660 --> 00:05:49.139
at a certain level I would argue

00:05:49.139 --> 00:05:51.720
even though like right now there's

00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:53.639
there's

00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.100
uh

00:05:56.100 --> 00:05:58.620
I could probably if I get into a

00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:00.780
meditative stance lose the impression

00:06:00.780 --> 00:06:02.520
that there were people on the other side

00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:05.180
of the screen

00:06:05.220 --> 00:06:09.380
um and so I think that

00:06:09.539 --> 00:06:12.240
you know the the point is is if these

00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:14.759
other layers of perception

00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:16.919
weren't doing their job I could never

00:06:16.919 --> 00:06:19.139
elaborate over them that there's people

00:06:19.139 --> 00:06:21.419
on the other side of the screen the

00:06:21.419 --> 00:06:23.880
question is can I get back to that raw

00:06:23.880 --> 00:06:27.600
that raw data and why does it why does

00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.600
it matter so

00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.940
um so that's yeah the territory is very

00:06:32.940 --> 00:06:36.720
it's very big that way

00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:37.500
um

00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:40.340
uh

00:06:41.940 --> 00:06:44.520
yeah we can go you know I think you can

00:06:44.520 --> 00:06:47.220
build on that but but

00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:50.400
it's it's also being aware in your

00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:52.319
conversation you don't have to make it

00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:55.919
explicit but unless people are not

00:06:55.919 --> 00:06:58.020
understanding you but being aware when

00:06:58.020 --> 00:07:01.020
you're slipping between the connotations

00:07:01.020 --> 00:07:05.900
of internal and external perception

00:07:17.400 --> 00:07:20.039
yeah and I'm sure that you've added you

00:07:20.039 --> 00:07:23.099
understand how the postures relate to

00:07:23.099 --> 00:07:24.240
them

00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.940
okay good question

00:07:26.940 --> 00:07:29.060
um

00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:30.210
um

00:07:30.210 --> 00:07:33.380
[Music]

00:07:35.699 --> 00:07:38.220
is there any other like

00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:42.259
orienting question at that level

00:08:00.419 --> 00:08:03.000
it was something I wanted to say but I

00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.780
didn't write it down

00:08:19.520 --> 00:08:22.740
oh and and you know some of you might

00:08:22.740 --> 00:08:25.620
want to talk about that video I put in

00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:27.599
on um

00:08:27.599 --> 00:08:29.920
the Dutch the Little Dutch children

00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:31.080
[Music]

00:08:31.080 --> 00:08:33.659
if you can get so you understand I mean

00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:35.700
that's a really great video in the sense

00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:37.620
that it could it's like a culminating

00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:41.159
project if we could precisely State the

00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.140
phenomenology of what's happening in

00:08:43.140 --> 00:08:45.779
that video then we would have pretty

00:08:45.779 --> 00:08:48.959
much a new theory of the body

00:08:48.959 --> 00:08:52.800
um so it's not easy to work that out

00:08:52.800 --> 00:08:56.580
um but it's open that's also open for

00:08:56.580 --> 00:08:58.320
discussion

00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.380
um

00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.519
oh I know what I was going to say

00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:06.779
okay

00:09:06.779 --> 00:09:10.019
and then there's this question I want

00:09:10.019 --> 00:09:13.200
also to not for you know people who are

00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.959
new but there's there's I'll I'll save

00:09:15.959 --> 00:09:17.399
it from when we come back but I'll write

00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.019
it down now

00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:21.080
um

00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:25.580
okay so I'll have it when we come back

00:09:26.040 --> 00:09:29.880
okay so you're gonna have 47 minutes

00:09:29.880 --> 00:09:31.980
you're gonna go to breakout groups for

00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:34.440
47 minutes we come back at the top of

00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.019
the hour and quite a few people have

00:09:37.019 --> 00:09:39.959
been using this format to join us at the

00:09:39.959 --> 00:09:41.940
top of the hour so when we come back

00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:43.740
they'll there'll probably be more people

00:09:43.740 --> 00:09:45.360
in the main room

00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:47.220
um which actually has a great deal of

00:09:47.220 --> 00:09:48.839
benefits

00:09:48.839 --> 00:09:51.300
um we're I think we're really enjoying

00:09:51.300 --> 00:09:52.560
that

00:09:52.560 --> 00:09:58.640
David is bouncing around so uh

00:10:01.260 --> 00:10:03.380
um

00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:08.180
can't wait till it happens there

00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:13.260
okay enjoy your company and enjoy your

00:10:13.260 --> 00:10:15.920
conversation

00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:44.959
foreign

00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.519
foreign

00:12:59.300 --> 00:13:02.520
[Music]

00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:16.019
foreign

00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.030
all right

00:14:30.030 --> 00:14:33.380
[Music]

00:15:00.300 --> 00:15:03.300
correctly

00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:17.360
right now

00:15:31.019 --> 00:15:32.680
okay

00:15:32.680 --> 00:15:36.180
[Music]

00:15:36.180 --> 00:15:39.300
see some smiling faces

00:15:39.300 --> 00:15:42.959
here comes some top of the hours Earth

00:15:42.959 --> 00:15:45.980
top of the hours

00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:51.480
um all right so what stood out for you

00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:53.880
um what was what's what kind of

00:15:53.880 --> 00:15:57.000
confusions did you create new confusions

00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:01.440
more questions more noticings uh some

00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.240
insights

00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.519
um build on some of what you were doing

00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:10.260
already it's all open up please uh uh

00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:12.959
let us know who you were with and give

00:16:12.959 --> 00:16:14.000
your

00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.680
coal conspirators a chance to add on to

00:16:18.680 --> 00:16:23.060
something that you might start off with

00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.440
well well I could share

00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.920
um I think the jazz hands

00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:59.519
um I I was with Cheryl and Margaret

00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.440
and um

00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.839
you know I'm new to the pop-up school

00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:06.540
and and what uh

00:17:06.540 --> 00:17:09.179
and I was feeling like you know nervous

00:17:09.179 --> 00:17:12.179
to be in the breakout and um

00:17:12.179 --> 00:17:17.760
and uh what I loved was uh Cheryl just

00:17:17.760 --> 00:17:19.860
you know named her experience in the

00:17:19.860 --> 00:17:21.000
space

00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.600
um that was like I feel like I you know

00:17:24.600 --> 00:17:27.540
I'm trying to grasp it

00:17:27.540 --> 00:17:29.000
um

00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:32.880
you know knowing information that uh I I

00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.220
don't feel like I have quite a handle on

00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.020
and uh

00:17:37.020 --> 00:17:39.360
and you know looking for direction and

00:17:39.360 --> 00:17:42.000
and um and and then you know just really

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.820
talked through her experience and and

00:17:44.820 --> 00:17:47.580
what I felt like as she you know opened

00:17:47.580 --> 00:17:49.440
more and more to receptivity like it

00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:52.559
totally changed also you know her energy

00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.140
but my energy and feeling so much more

00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:57.360
grounded in the space and then open and

00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:59.460
able to perceive like I didn't realize

00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:02.460
that my you know wanting wanting and

00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:05.700
needing to know was blocking totally

00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:08.760
blocking exactly what I wanted

00:18:08.760 --> 00:18:11.700
to do here

00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:15.299
um and and then by simply just naming

00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:18.240
that and and it opened my perception to

00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.660
then listen to all that Margaret had to

00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:25.940
say and it was it was great

00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.799
that's a good noticing like there's

00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:39.299
certain ways that we get

00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:40.740
flooded

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:43.559
with certain types of activity that

00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:46.740
closes us you know a lot I call it

00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:48.480
locked in syndrome basically you're

00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.380
locked in right and okay you can see the

00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:54.780
world out there but it seems like it's

00:18:54.780 --> 00:18:57.660
it's it's out there somewhere

00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:59.580
um because like what's right in front of

00:18:59.580 --> 00:19:02.760
my face is already

00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:04.320
yeah

00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:07.260
it's already too I'm participating with

00:19:07.260 --> 00:19:10.140
that and I don't have

00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:14.400
I can't I can't quite get to

00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.140
these things that actually more

00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:20.580
fundamental they're so fundamental uh we

00:19:20.580 --> 00:19:23.580
have to put some effort into reclaiming

00:19:23.580 --> 00:19:25.919
them so yeah that's a great show thank

00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:28.080
you you had a difficult room because I

00:19:28.080 --> 00:19:30.059
don't you know you were I think almost

00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:31.039
all

00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.140
uh relatively new to the material I know

00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:36.900
I'd seen you before but yeah that was

00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:40.160
that was a great noticing

00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.460
yeah I'll share to that

00:19:49.460 --> 00:19:52.320
I I noticed

00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:55.559
I was able to articulate a paradox that

00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:57.960
I often experience in the pop-up School

00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.660
in my relating with Bonnie he was a

00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:01.860
teacher

00:20:01.860 --> 00:20:05.660
and it's it's

00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.880
it's like relating with the feedback

00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.020
loop

00:20:10.020 --> 00:20:12.539
around

00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:15.660
what it like what you model and

00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:18.480
articulate very very conceptually

00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.340
and with the kind of

00:20:20.340 --> 00:20:24.799
Precision that feels

00:20:27.120 --> 00:20:30.120
like it feels like it there's something

00:20:30.120 --> 00:20:32.340
about it where it feels right but my

00:20:32.340 --> 00:20:34.980
mind can't fully wrap itself around it

00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:37.740
like I can't I can read the words and I

00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:39.840
get it but I have to

00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:43.380
drop to a different I almost have to let

00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:46.440
it penetrate from a very different field

00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:47.820
of awareness

00:20:47.820 --> 00:20:50.640
for me to feel

00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.020
um

00:20:52.020 --> 00:20:57.059
like the transmission of that teaching

00:20:57.059 --> 00:20:59.700
and it's really interesting in these

00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:01.740
classes where when we're going into a

00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:02.880
breakout room

00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.220
I get very caught up in the conceptual I

00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:06.900
get very caught up in oh I have to go

00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:09.000
back to the email and look at all the

00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.740
concepts and know that I'm referencing

00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:13.620
the right words and then I'll get kind

00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:16.260
of frustrated like oh am I getting it

00:21:16.260 --> 00:21:18.360
right now

00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:20.880
and so I yeah I think carrying that

00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:25.080
Paradox in my body I noticed this time

00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:28.380
how edgy it made me feel like I was like

00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:30.120
quite

00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:32.880
um I was at my learning Edge in a really

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:37.200
deep way and very also meta aware of

00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.260
how much I was at my learning Edge

00:21:40.260 --> 00:21:42.840
and the way that it felt like the best I

00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:45.419
could articulate it is

00:21:45.419 --> 00:21:46.860
I think there's this way in which

00:21:46.860 --> 00:21:50.400
sometimes we I like the idea of meta is

00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:54.059
like you're observing from Beyond

00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:57.240
but it was but here I felt it as oh it's

00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.620
it's like both the observing like the

00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:04.320
cognitive perceptual capacity online at

00:22:04.320 --> 00:22:06.720
the same time is like the kind of

00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.780
Gestalt plural many organs of perception

00:22:09.780 --> 00:22:11.880
like my hand perceiving and my butt

00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:13.679
perceiving and my heart perceiving and

00:22:13.679 --> 00:22:17.400
my energy perceiving like all of that in

00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:18.720
its

00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:20.880
fullness

00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.799
and

00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:27.240
that's so hard that's so hard

00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:30.840
oh yeah so I think I just

00:22:30.840 --> 00:22:34.020
yeah I almost I felt like I I brushed up

00:22:34.020 --> 00:22:36.600
against I'm not I brought not I brushed

00:22:36.600 --> 00:22:38.760
up I felt like I was my face was like

00:22:38.760 --> 00:22:41.520
pressed up against like that edge of not

00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:42.720
quite

00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.299
wanting to go there but feeling like I

00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:48.360
was still blocked from it

00:22:48.360 --> 00:22:50.940
um through the concepts so

00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:52.620
it's like an interesting it's like a

00:22:52.620 --> 00:22:55.919
yeah it's a fun feeling

00:22:55.919 --> 00:22:58.080
um and also kind of torturous at the

00:22:58.080 --> 00:23:00.659
same time and then so that's just one

00:23:00.659 --> 00:23:01.919
thing I wanted to share and then the

00:23:01.919 --> 00:23:03.960
other piece was I really appreciated in

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.260
my group with Kate and

00:23:07.260 --> 00:23:08.580
um Margaret

00:23:08.580 --> 00:23:10.919
we were also talking about

00:23:10.919 --> 00:23:13.559
how because it's kind of a bit more of

00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:15.240
an intergenerational group and Margaret

00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:17.640
was discussing how there would be more

00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.900
spaces for just simply being with open

00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:24.000
awareness because you're

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.340
like you'd be waiting in line to get

00:23:26.340 --> 00:23:27.960
your tire

00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:30.539
um fixed on your car and then you

00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:31.860
wouldn't have a phone to like

00:23:31.860 --> 00:23:34.140
immediately try to do something with

00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:37.380
like there was not too long ago there

00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:40.080
wouldn't be so much availability of just

00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:41.780
always

00:23:41.780 --> 00:23:44.039
like focusing your attention on

00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:45.120
something that you feel like you're

00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:47.580
supposed to be doing

00:23:47.580 --> 00:23:50.340
so it's like also it felt very apparent

00:23:50.340 --> 00:23:51.900
to me too

00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:53.640
how much

00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.380
we're trying like it's like even the

00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:57.480
practice of meditation and just creating

00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.700
open awareness and spaces

00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:03.299
reclaiming something that we did way

00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:05.640
more in our culture like even 30 years

00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:06.960
ago

00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.460
so just

00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:11.280
yeah maybe there's also a frustration in

00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:14.760
that about how much we have to

00:24:14.760 --> 00:24:18.000
work to do something that

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.520
like my my parents or grandparents would

00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:24.480
have done very intuitively

00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:26.400
um this is a lot of sharing but the one

00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:28.980
last thing I just wanted to share

00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:32.220
was um Kate was asking like why do we

00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:34.559
avoid like it's like but there's also

00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.980
this aversion to Simply being with like

00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:41.039
emptiness just like there's an aversion

00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.100
to wanting to stand in line and simply

00:24:44.100 --> 00:24:46.740
just like be there and she was just

00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.020
asking this question like why do we want

00:24:49.020 --> 00:24:51.360
to avoid that

00:24:51.360 --> 00:24:52.140
um

00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:54.000
and something that came up for me is

00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.960
just there's something right now in

00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.020
the like there's an unbearable intimacy

00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:02.580
with reality

00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:05.940
that we have to meet and there is like

00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:08.159
an there is a quality of it feels

00:25:08.159 --> 00:25:10.799
unbearable to be with reality

00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.419
right now

00:25:12.419 --> 00:25:16.860
so asking that of people is also about

00:25:16.860 --> 00:25:19.860
acknowledging how much arises in those

00:25:19.860 --> 00:25:22.640
spaces in between

00:25:22.980 --> 00:25:25.460
okay

00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.520
thank you thank you to my group

00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:40.799
maybe I'll share I was in a group with

00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:44.520
Howard and

00:25:45.840 --> 00:25:48.900
I think we I think we did quite well I

00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:50.059
mean

00:25:50.059 --> 00:25:53.520
let's see but it was we had to

00:25:53.520 --> 00:25:56.820
we also found it quite hard we had to

00:25:56.820 --> 00:26:01.020
we kind of had to work at staying with

00:26:01.020 --> 00:26:03.600
you know with you know we're recording

00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:06.240
it wrong perception weren't we

00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.919
um and we were noticing that it was a

00:26:07.919 --> 00:26:09.600
kind of a process

00:26:09.600 --> 00:26:12.299
and the participation

00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:14.279
um so we were talking about just the

00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:15.600
process of

00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:19.500
basic alignments we would you know we

00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:21.900
um and then we also went through the the

00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:22.980
senses

00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:23.700
um

00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:25.380
and we noticed

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:28.740
how quickly we labeled

00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:31.500
um we noticed that with taste

00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.659
we didn't label or we couldn't really

00:26:33.659 --> 00:26:37.940
label and with the tactile sense

00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:40.559
we didn't really need to label it kind

00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.900
of sounds felt

00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:45.360
you know just we could feel the raw

00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:47.760
experience but with

00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:49.500
with sight

00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:52.620
I had to kind of you know back out to

00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:54.779
not label I would you know quite quickly

00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:57.120
label what I was seeing

00:26:57.120 --> 00:26:59.640
and with sound when you know I think

00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:01.380
there's you managed to kind of just hear

00:27:01.380 --> 00:27:04.260
the movement of sound whereas for me I

00:27:04.260 --> 00:27:05.760
just straight into what the word was

00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:06.900
saying

00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.900
um I couldn't really stop that

00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:12.720
um but so it was I thought it was

00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:15.960
um I thought I thought we we stayed at

00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.140
that level for quite a bit of time

00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:22.679
um I think we learned you know certainly

00:27:22.679 --> 00:27:25.799
I learned quite a lot including

00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:27.419
um Cheryl that

00:27:27.419 --> 00:27:29.820
yeah but it can be quite hard to stay

00:27:29.820 --> 00:27:32.400
with that kind of intimacy with the

00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:35.520
basic sensations of

00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:38.940
you know aliveness and perceiving

00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:40.500
um

00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:42.000
but then an interesting thing came up

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:44.159
I'll just maybe Liz share that Liz took

00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:46.320
a sip of coffee and I think it mentioned

00:27:46.320 --> 00:27:48.539
coffee taste before so I assumed in your

00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:51.240
cut was coffee and so as she took a sip

00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.360
of coffee I kind of I sort of knew I was

00:27:54.360 --> 00:27:56.900
doing it I sort of imaginatively

00:27:56.900 --> 00:27:59.400
projected kind of myself and I could

00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.059
taste the coffee and so in my mouth and

00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:05.460
we had a bit of a discussion as to what

00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:06.659
that was

00:28:06.659 --> 00:28:08.880
um because it felt real

00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:12.120
I knew I was imagining it felt real we

00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:13.980
wondered if it wasn't what was the word

00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:17.820
again memory or you know maybe but um

00:28:17.820 --> 00:28:20.940
that I was participating eidetic Bonnie

00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:22.500
that you mentioned in your talk I

00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:24.840
wondered if it was that yeah and the

00:28:24.840 --> 00:28:28.020
word identic means image but you because

00:28:28.020 --> 00:28:31.980
it's always related to Vision but

00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:33.779
you know that I don't think there's a

00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:37.440
word if it's the taste uh group four

00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:39.299
again so

00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:41.640
yeah and I think we still because we

00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:44.220
knew we were doing that that I knew I

00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:47.039
was imaginatively tasting the coffee

00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.200
that you know I wasn't actually tasting

00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.200
the coffee we sort of used your your

00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:53.700
orientation at the beginning and said

00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:55.679
that was direct

00:28:55.679 --> 00:28:57.120
perception

00:28:57.120 --> 00:28:59.940
yes so then you're having a direct

00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:04.200
perception of an eidetic reproduction or

00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:05.640
something

00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:07.980
um uh you know and I'll just say this

00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:11.520
some people uh the people who coin that

00:29:11.520 --> 00:29:15.299
term or in some places actually think

00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:17.279
that even when you're working with taste

00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.100
you make a image a visual image in order

00:29:20.100 --> 00:29:23.340
to get the taste I think that's just

00:29:23.340 --> 00:29:26.159
because we're so visually oriented and

00:29:26.159 --> 00:29:28.679
like chefs probably don't do that maybe

00:29:28.679 --> 00:29:32.220
we do but maybe you didn't at this point

00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:33.419
but

00:29:33.419 --> 00:29:35.580
um I would say that it's often the case

00:29:35.580 --> 00:29:40.140
for such a visually biased culture but

00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:41.899
certainly not

00:29:41.899 --> 00:29:45.440
necessarily the case

00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:56.480
else happened

00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:01.440
well I I I shared with you guys and it

00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.779
seemed to resonate

00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:07.559
um this little story from Gregory

00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:11.100
Bateson who's driving and he was a

00:30:11.100 --> 00:30:13.679
notoriously distracted driver because he

00:30:13.679 --> 00:30:15.480
was looking at everything else but the

00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:16.679
road

00:30:16.679 --> 00:30:19.919
and they stopped

00:30:19.919 --> 00:30:23.460
for a hitchhiker and The Hitchhiker came

00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:24.659
in and

00:30:24.659 --> 00:30:27.539
sat next to him in the passenger seat

00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:30.000
and pulled out a knife

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.059
and um

00:30:32.059 --> 00:30:37.740
Laura recalls that he said oh what have

00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:40.279
we here

00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.100
foreign

00:30:46.399 --> 00:30:50.899
and that I guess you would call it

00:30:50.899 --> 00:30:54.899
disposition or how how how

00:30:54.899 --> 00:30:58.860
he is it just keeps coming back to me it

00:30:58.860 --> 00:31:02.340
you know various times in the day as a

00:31:02.340 --> 00:31:07.279
way to kind of dissatisfy

00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:11.159
uh the hungry ghosts of linear

00:31:11.159 --> 00:31:13.500
perception that

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:14.650
keep

00:31:14.650 --> 00:31:17.419
[Laughter]

00:31:17.419 --> 00:31:24.440
so anyway oh what have we here you know

00:31:24.899 --> 00:31:26.960
um

00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:34.860
yeah um I think I'll add we were talking

00:31:34.860 --> 00:31:38.159
about like even your yours your sense

00:31:38.159 --> 00:31:41.580
when you have a sensory experience

00:31:41.580 --> 00:31:44.940
as soon as you name it you

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:46.980
lose the complexity and the

00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:49.380
interrelationship of the experience like

00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:51.360
say you're cold and you feel cold and

00:31:51.360 --> 00:31:53.880
then you say I'm cold if you actually

00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:56.279
stayed with the experience

00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:58.740
there's way more going on

00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:01.440
that has you even know this as to be

00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:05.399
cold it's cold relative to the other

00:32:05.399 --> 00:32:07.320
all the other complexity and

00:32:07.320 --> 00:32:08.940
interrelationship of the experience

00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:10.380
you're having

00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:13.880
so just that

00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:18.000
how to keep coming to the that what

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.860
Howard you were saying the lower rung of

00:32:19.860 --> 00:32:22.320
the latter like how to keep coming down

00:32:22.320 --> 00:32:26.279
down into the rawest I think the more

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:28.200
raw your experience is the more complex

00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:30.960
it is and the more maybe there's a sense

00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.020
of relationship between things and and

00:32:34.020 --> 00:32:36.720
the more I go into my mind now it's

00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:41.159
it it really reduces the experience to I

00:32:41.159 --> 00:32:43.919
can't perceive it in its complexity and

00:32:43.919 --> 00:32:45.299
its relationship

00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:46.919
anymore

00:32:46.919 --> 00:32:49.620
so and and yeah when Howard was talking

00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:51.840
and all of a sudden I just

00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:54.659
I could hear his words but I was more

00:32:54.659 --> 00:32:57.179
viscerally feeling

00:32:57.179 --> 00:33:00.779
the the vibration of his voice actually

00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:04.260
moving in my body I could still hear the

00:33:04.260 --> 00:33:05.700
words I could still listen to him I

00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:07.200
could have a conversation with someone

00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.940
like that

00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:11.760
um but it added so much more to the

00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:13.740
experience it's not like it's not binary

00:33:13.740 --> 00:33:15.539
that's what I'm realizing the more you

00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:17.039
get into the raw perception it's not

00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:18.260
binary

00:33:18.260 --> 00:33:21.720
because you can hold

00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:24.419
maybe I have to test it yeah no there's

00:33:24.419 --> 00:33:27.480
a while this is a big insight and you're

00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:30.559
guessing but you're right

00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:31.940
that is

00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:33.799
[Music]

00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:37.799
when you're up in the the semantic and

00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:41.399
the symbolic and the rep it's very hard

00:33:41.399 --> 00:33:45.779
to get down to the to the raw data but

00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:48.480
the raw data if you can hold it doesn't

00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.559
have the same power to Snuff out

00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.539
this symbolic meaning making

00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.340
unless you then get lost up in it again

00:33:59.340 --> 00:34:03.919
then it snuffs out so this top starts

00:34:03.919 --> 00:34:07.080
okay I said I got that you didn't know

00:34:07.080 --> 00:34:08.760
what I was saying because you were into

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.659
the raw data

00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.820
so it doesn't work I mean there's a

00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:17.940
toggle but it doesn't work so much that

00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:20.760
the raw data snuffs out this capacity

00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.460
it's just that if it goes up there too

00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:25.919
fast then this snuffs out the raw data

00:34:25.919 --> 00:34:29.520
so it is possible and easier to work the

00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:31.560
other way around and then you get into

00:34:31.560 --> 00:34:34.800
things like genderwinds felt sense so

00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.899
you're you're really concentrating on

00:34:36.899 --> 00:34:38.639
the felt sense you're not quite sure

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.159
what you're going to say because you

00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:43.679
haven't spent so much time strategizing

00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.720
what you're going to say once you start

00:34:45.720 --> 00:34:47.399
strategizing what you're going to say

00:34:47.399 --> 00:34:50.399
you're up here too far and it snuffs out

00:34:50.399 --> 00:34:53.820
the raw data so I think that's what you

00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:57.240
are getting to that that it's is it

00:34:57.240 --> 00:35:00.420
possible you can stretch

00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:03.540
stretch The Experience more this way

00:35:03.540 --> 00:35:08.099
than you can stretch it this way

00:35:08.099 --> 00:35:12.920
and that's a very good Insight yeah

00:35:15.060 --> 00:35:16.859
and buying what about stretching it this

00:35:16.859 --> 00:35:18.359
way because like

00:35:18.359 --> 00:35:20.040
also that's what I've been noticing with

00:35:20.040 --> 00:35:22.619
those posture with the four postures

00:35:22.619 --> 00:35:24.240
it's like when that one time when like

00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:27.300
you and Apostle were kind of farring

00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:29.820
back and forth and I couldn't digest

00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:33.599
anything so putting my attention more

00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.040
this way then I just started noting

00:35:35.040 --> 00:35:36.839
noticing the gestures when I started

00:35:36.839 --> 00:35:39.720
noticing the bodily movements which gay

00:35:39.720 --> 00:35:41.700
forms is sort of a different

00:35:41.700 --> 00:35:43.619
understanding of communication that was

00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:45.980
happening

00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.020
so so

00:35:49.020 --> 00:35:51.680
the main

00:35:53.220 --> 00:35:56.579
thing is very hard to to you're all kind

00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:57.420
of

00:35:57.420 --> 00:36:00.540
saying some of this you know the

00:36:00.540 --> 00:36:03.060
meanings not in the conception when you

00:36:03.060 --> 00:36:05.220
get to when you're too conceptual about

00:36:05.220 --> 00:36:08.040
the conception rather than trying to let

00:36:08.040 --> 00:36:10.260
it point to something

00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:12.359
and then you look around and try to see

00:36:12.359 --> 00:36:14.099
what maybe it's pointing to it's a

00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:16.500
different type of experience than trying

00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:17.700
to

00:36:17.700 --> 00:36:21.000
tackle the conception itself if you're

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.099
watching uh

00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:24.960
some of the early episodes of John

00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.900
vervecki's after Socrates this is the

00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:29.940
problem Socrates and Plato are having

00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:31.800
they take the concept and they try to

00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:33.119
examine it

00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.660
and it turns out to be empty because the

00:36:36.660 --> 00:36:39.119
meaning is not in the words

00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.660
there's nothing very spiritual about

00:36:42.660 --> 00:36:44.060
that

00:36:44.060 --> 00:36:46.619
people have understood this now for a

00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:48.780
long time so

00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:51.420
all of this is like really good insights

00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:54.660
into what you're you know what what

00:36:54.660 --> 00:36:57.740
you're discovering

00:36:58.339 --> 00:37:01.859
and especially with Apostle and I what

00:37:01.859 --> 00:37:04.940
we were establishing was not necessarily

00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:07.920
something conceptual but some kind of

00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.280
relationship we could work from

00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:13.320
um especially the first couple of ones

00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:15.780
you know that kind of like give me a

00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:17.760
chance here and I'll give you a little

00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.820
bit of chance and so that was easy much

00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:22.680
easier to understand from just an

00:37:22.680 --> 00:37:23.820
energetic

00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:27.200
versus we were into some kind of

00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:32.540
esoteric kind of language game yeah

00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:42.000
so I was with uh John who had to move

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:46.579
off the call and Steve

00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:51.540
and Steve just sent me a chat

00:37:51.540 --> 00:37:56.160
asking me if I would speak for our group

00:37:56.160 --> 00:37:59.280
and I'm not as interested in doing that

00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:03.720
as allowing Steve to speak for our group

00:38:03.720 --> 00:38:07.680
so if you're willing Steve before I

00:38:07.680 --> 00:38:10.500
speak for our group you can cave I'll

00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:12.660
try part of the reason I asked you David

00:38:12.660 --> 00:38:15.119
is that after we came out the session

00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:18.720
my mind went a bit Spacey so I could

00:38:18.720 --> 00:38:21.960
have lost the plot of what we'd been

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:23.640
talking about

00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:24.300
um

00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:27.240
we talked about a a different thing so

00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:29.280
it might just come up a bit random

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.280
random order but um

00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.619
uh we you brought us back at the

00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:36.359
beginning to the actual question about

00:38:36.359 --> 00:38:39.480
the the raw can we be with the raw data

00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:42.720
or I think that was the question and

00:38:42.720 --> 00:38:43.820
um

00:38:43.820 --> 00:38:46.560
uh and I think

00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:49.140
um that David talked about his wide-eyed

00:38:49.140 --> 00:38:52.980
the wide-eyed still Hunter meditation

00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:53.660
um

00:38:53.660 --> 00:38:56.339
and uh

00:38:56.339 --> 00:38:58.980
I think I was I was interested in what's

00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:01.500
what's the experience of the raw data

00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:04.079
what what actually is it

00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.140
um and also I was observing that we can

00:39:07.140 --> 00:39:08.880
kind of move in and out of abstraction

00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:11.940
and like for closer or further to but we

00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:14.339
seem to do that quite fluidly and I was

00:39:14.339 --> 00:39:15.780
just wondering if we can reflect on how

00:39:15.780 --> 00:39:17.820
the how the nature of the senses changes

00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:21.660
as we move in and out

00:39:21.660 --> 00:39:22.920
um

00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:25.140
and

00:39:25.140 --> 00:39:27.180
um

00:39:27.180 --> 00:39:30.420
yeah I was I was also kind of struck

00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:33.060
um that that you know in in certain

00:39:33.060 --> 00:39:35.520
scientific contexts

00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:37.440
um the raw data would be seen as kind of

00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:39.480
unintelligible it would be you have to

00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:42.000
process it to have any understanding but

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:43.619
I think meditation experience tends to

00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:45.420
point the other way that somehow the raw

00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:48.720
data is inherently intelligible

00:39:48.720 --> 00:39:50.599
um and it's just free of of of

00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:54.540
elaboration or conceptual elaboration

00:39:54.540 --> 00:39:55.200
um

00:39:55.200 --> 00:39:56.760
and I know we talked about 20 other

00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:59.160
things uh David maybe I could have had

00:39:59.160 --> 00:40:01.640
back to you

00:40:03.900 --> 00:40:06.300
uh yeah

00:40:06.300 --> 00:40:08.099
um

00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:11.040
what do I want to say here so hard to

00:40:11.040 --> 00:40:14.400
take 45 minutes and chunk it

00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.380
into words

00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:18.500
um

00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:24.240
so this is my eighth breakout in this

00:40:24.240 --> 00:40:26.040
module

00:40:26.040 --> 00:40:28.260
this is the first time I was with two

00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:30.500
men

00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:33.119
not wanting to get into a whole lot of

00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:34.200
stuff

00:40:34.200 --> 00:40:36.599
but the felt

00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:38.880
stance

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.640
was of being with

00:40:41.640 --> 00:40:45.020
two other sponges

00:40:46.460 --> 00:40:51.920
not two foxes in a pack

00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:57.420
it was really this uh

00:40:57.420 --> 00:41:00.320
wonderful

00:41:03.359 --> 00:41:06.180
sharing

00:41:06.180 --> 00:41:10.680
feelings and ideas and I'm I'm coming

00:41:10.680 --> 00:41:13.880
away with

00:41:16.020 --> 00:41:19.800
that's why it matters for me to approach

00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.200
the raw data

00:41:22.200 --> 00:41:26.040
so that I can as I put it with Stephen

00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:30.980
John elegantly make choices

00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:36.660
and we talked a lot

00:41:36.660 --> 00:41:38.400
about

00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:43.740
um our feeling sense and our perception

00:41:43.740 --> 00:41:46.740
included

00:41:46.940 --> 00:41:51.300
uh ideas and our experience in the

00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:54.720
pop-up because John and I have been old

00:41:54.720 --> 00:41:56.700
gangsters around here

00:41:56.700 --> 00:42:01.320
and Steve is new you know so it was

00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:05.060
really it was uh uh

00:42:05.060 --> 00:42:07.260
remarkable to

00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:13.280
to sit in the pop-up school with two men

00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:24.240
if I can have maybe just one thing to

00:42:24.240 --> 00:42:26.220
that as well in terms of

00:42:26.220 --> 00:42:27.240
um

00:42:27.240 --> 00:42:30.180
the raw data maybe there's a presumption

00:42:30.180 --> 00:42:33.680
that that's that's inherently sensory

00:42:33.680 --> 00:42:36.720
data but in the way the the strongest

00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:38.520
thing I took away from our group was was

00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:40.440
actually a sense of presence

00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.720
uh the experience of presence was almost

00:42:42.720 --> 00:42:44.880
the most direct thing I was experiencing

00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:49.640
so uh yeah just I'd share that

00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:05.099
good dogs

00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:06.380
um

00:43:06.380 --> 00:43:10.560
did you notice

00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.160
like when

00:43:13.160 --> 00:43:17.180
you're in this

00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.560
presencing

00:43:19.560 --> 00:43:21.599
there's two types of presencing like

00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.040
there's one just kind of presence in

00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:24.660
yourself and then there's one where it's

00:43:24.660 --> 00:43:25.619
like

00:43:25.619 --> 00:43:28.400
there's like this

00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:31.800
your draw your your your offering

00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:34.380
yourself up out to the person you're

00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:37.740
drawing the person in do you notice how

00:43:37.740 --> 00:43:41.460
the way I mean we have just pictures on

00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:43.680
the screens but do you notice you look

00:43:43.680 --> 00:43:45.839
at the picture on the screen in a

00:43:45.839 --> 00:43:48.119
different way when you're in this draw

00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:52.099
so that would be the power of like

00:43:52.099 --> 00:43:55.319
it's an interesting thing because the

00:43:55.319 --> 00:43:58.680
normal way people experience vision is

00:43:58.680 --> 00:44:02.220
uh it's subject object it's out there

00:44:02.220 --> 00:44:05.099
but when you let the

00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:07.260
raw data we're using that term it's a

00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:08.880
horrible term but we're all very

00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:11.460
comfortable with it now and not allergic

00:44:11.460 --> 00:44:14.839
to it but when you're really

00:44:14.839 --> 00:44:17.760
engaging the raw data it actually

00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.839
creates as we're going to say this it

00:44:21.839 --> 00:44:26.220
changes my insights which changes

00:44:26.220 --> 00:44:28.920
the experiences the immediate feedback

00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:32.940
loop between the external perception and

00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:34.800
the internal properties of that

00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:36.560
perception

00:44:36.560 --> 00:44:39.540
so we yes last time we talked about

00:44:39.540 --> 00:44:43.560
value so David has

00:44:43.560 --> 00:44:45.960
and he's you know one of we know this

00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.180
about David one of his values is really

00:44:48.180 --> 00:44:49.400
to

00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:53.300
presence himself and draw in people into

00:44:53.300 --> 00:44:57.359
this presidency and that's like so so

00:44:57.359 --> 00:45:01.140
the arousal state is in this room is

00:45:01.140 --> 00:45:04.200
already value Laden

00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:06.180
it's not like he's just going to look at

00:45:06.180 --> 00:45:09.000
you the looking at

00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:12.839
is searching for a certain kind of

00:45:12.839 --> 00:45:14.579
satisfaction

00:45:14.579 --> 00:45:17.760
right so it's already valuated and so

00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:21.119
then in you that what he sees

00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:25.020
is the value that he's looking for you

00:45:25.020 --> 00:45:27.200
get this this

00:45:27.200 --> 00:45:30.359
discharge of value into the object a lot

00:45:30.359 --> 00:45:33.240
of this if you're familiar with the 60s

00:45:33.240 --> 00:45:36.720
object relations was a big part of

00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:40.200
psychotherapy and uh that that's that's

00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:42.680
part of it like a little kid

00:45:42.680 --> 00:45:46.920
wants to search for comfort and the

00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:49.319
blanket gives him comfort

00:45:49.319 --> 00:45:52.859
and then that value is projected into

00:45:52.859 --> 00:45:55.260
the blanket right so these talk about

00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:58.920
objects relations problems and stuff but

00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:00.780
this is what I would call Direct

00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:03.839
perception there's immediacy between I'm

00:46:03.839 --> 00:46:06.480
going out and something in me is

00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:07.740
changing

00:46:07.740 --> 00:46:12.500
yeah some neural chemicals some photons

00:46:12.500 --> 00:46:16.200
and that is immediate

00:46:16.200 --> 00:46:19.319
I can't simulate that I can't make my

00:46:19.319 --> 00:46:21.660
photons gee let me see let me make my

00:46:21.660 --> 00:46:24.119
phone the photons do this it's

00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:28.680
impossible to simulate that

00:46:28.680 --> 00:46:31.140
right it's impossible to simulate that

00:46:31.140 --> 00:46:32.760
and so

00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:34.920
that's what we would call Direct

00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:37.980
perception it's impossible I can run a

00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:40.680
simulation in my mind

00:46:40.680 --> 00:46:43.200
but I can't simulate the thing that's

00:46:43.200 --> 00:46:45.359
running the simulation I don't have

00:46:45.359 --> 00:46:47.880
access to whatever this does to enable

00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.520
me to run the simulation

00:46:50.520 --> 00:46:54.240
those those things are immediate

00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:56.220
and

00:46:56.220 --> 00:46:59.339
um you know some clarity like this will

00:46:59.339 --> 00:47:02.400
come it it's not easy but does debunk

00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:06.440
this notion that we don't have

00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:09.079
direct unmediated

00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:11.460
participation with the with the world

00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:14.180
and each other

00:47:15.060 --> 00:47:18.480
uh Bonnie thank you for seeing me

00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:20.119
um

00:47:20.119 --> 00:47:22.740
what I want to share is what I shared

00:47:22.740 --> 00:47:25.859
with Stephen John is that what I've

00:47:25.859 --> 00:47:28.859
started to do

00:47:28.859 --> 00:47:30.180
um you know

00:47:30.180 --> 00:47:33.079
like Claudia develop

00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.000
practices that are new

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:38.880
and or at least new to me

00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:43.079
and what I shared that I have started to

00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.420
do frequently through the day is ask

00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:49.380
myself what am I participating with

00:47:49.380 --> 00:47:52.079
and as soon as I do that a lot of times

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.640
I notice my shoulders are crunched in or

00:47:56.640 --> 00:48:00.359
you know I'm my heart is beating fast or

00:48:00.359 --> 00:48:03.119
I find a body state

00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:05.720
that allows me to

00:48:05.720 --> 00:48:09.020
move my body into a different posture

00:48:09.020 --> 00:48:12.560
and break that looping that I'm finding

00:48:12.560 --> 00:48:15.660
and it's a simple practice to remember

00:48:15.660 --> 00:48:19.700
what am I participating with

00:48:22.560 --> 00:48:25.260
and yeah I participate a lot with that

00:48:25.260 --> 00:48:28.680
value Bonita

00:48:37.819 --> 00:48:42.319
and so that you know I just want to say

00:48:45.060 --> 00:48:48.060
uh

00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:50.940
so yes so everything's you know

00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:52.920
eventually you can tie a lot of this

00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.560
together it would be it's very hard to

00:48:55.560 --> 00:48:56.339
just

00:48:56.339 --> 00:48:59.700
teach it all together

00:48:59.700 --> 00:49:01.980
um but the posture creates a

00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:03.960
dispositional state the dispositional

00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:07.740
states create values inside you that

00:49:07.740 --> 00:49:09.300
then change what the repetitive

00:49:09.300 --> 00:49:11.940
driverless senses are and on and on and

00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:14.900
on and on and and all these things

00:49:14.900 --> 00:49:18.319
actually just

00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:21.680
happen you know this is how we're built

00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:27.119
and and you can find uh

00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:31.020
a lot of Leverage Downstream by changing

00:49:31.020 --> 00:49:34.740
your posture or asking this question

00:49:34.740 --> 00:49:38.940
um and uh yeah I love that and I and I

00:49:38.940 --> 00:49:40.380
think it's great because we're working

00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:43.200
with general principles we're not you

00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:44.819
know the four postures I gave very

00:49:44.819 --> 00:49:46.740
strict instructions but it was just to

00:49:46.740 --> 00:49:48.780
give you an idea and not and then

00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:52.319
they're just general principles uh

00:49:52.319 --> 00:49:54.980
for all kinds of practices you can

00:49:54.980 --> 00:50:00.619
customize to you or your situation yeah

00:50:26.780 --> 00:50:31.280
did we hear from Susan's group

00:50:33.859 --> 00:50:37.020
and you don't have to

00:50:37.020 --> 00:50:40.500
I mean uh we had a really good time to

00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:43.440
school you know no I know I I was

00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:45.599
actually considering one aspect that

00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:48.000
we've discussed and wondering oh maybe

00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:49.920
I'll pose that question

00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:54.059
um I was with Wilhelm and apostle

00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:55.800
um

00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:58.319
one thing that makes literally very

00:50:58.319 --> 00:50:59.400
funny

00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:02.880
um quite often I noticed that when

00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:06.000
apostle was speaking

00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.579
um Wilhelm if I may speak for you and

00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:13.619
myself would say nah just man not going

00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:16.800
there and we would just offer up

00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:19.140
sometimes an experience

00:51:19.140 --> 00:51:22.260
um because that's more how I get to

00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:25.440
understand my own experiences helped me

00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:26.700
here

00:51:26.700 --> 00:51:28.619
um and sometimes we would share to the

00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:30.300
best of our ability

00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:33.359
what we where we felt you're coming from

00:51:33.359 --> 00:51:37.140
and that was really cool but I am

00:51:37.140 --> 00:51:38.880
I wanted to

00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:43.200
ask about the illusion of the um squares

00:51:43.200 --> 00:51:47.339
the A and the B squares we yeah we we I

00:51:47.339 --> 00:51:49.380
asked a question about that because

00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:52.079
I maybe I was asking the wrong question

00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:54.480
and that was pointed out by well how

00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.480
much was helpful but it was clear for me

00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.000
my perception was that the A and the B

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.800
are the same color

00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:03.480
that it doesn't really matter where I

00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:04.859
put them

00:52:04.859 --> 00:52:08.099
they will look different for me they I

00:52:08.099 --> 00:52:10.079
still see them as different colors when

00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:12.660
I put them back in the Square but I know

00:52:12.660 --> 00:52:15.720
that they're the same and so then I was

00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:18.660
like oh how the hell do I explain that

00:52:18.660 --> 00:52:22.079
like how do I know that I can't explain

00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:24.900
it I just know that that is it's an

00:52:24.900 --> 00:52:27.599
illusion and so we talked a little bit

00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.400
around that

00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.680
um and probably unfortunately Apostles

00:52:31.680 --> 00:52:35.400
not here to express what he said

00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.180
um and William Wilhelm

00:52:38.180 --> 00:52:41.880
you say what you said about it do you

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.300
want to say

00:52:44.339 --> 00:52:46.140
how you saw that

00:52:46.140 --> 00:52:50.339
I I perceived that the Illusions

00:52:50.339 --> 00:52:52.619
um wake up orientation in me so I just

00:52:52.619 --> 00:52:54.119
skipped it so I don't want to speak on

00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:58.260
that illusion I like the the athlete

00:52:58.260 --> 00:53:00.420
part

00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:03.000
um and then I I spoke about being in a

00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:05.280
almost accident once

00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:09.020
when my imy mine complex didn't

00:53:09.020 --> 00:53:12.300
work and I have all the time in the

00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:14.460
world about half a second to park my car

00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:16.380
exactly in the middle of two other cars

00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:18.960
and no no scratch so

00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:20.339
so

00:53:20.339 --> 00:53:22.079
um

00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:24.839
yeah so I can't speak to the to the

00:53:24.839 --> 00:53:27.000
illusion

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.859
so when you did that to avoid an

00:53:28.859 --> 00:53:30.300
accident

00:53:30.300 --> 00:53:32.700
is that your sensory perceptions are

00:53:32.700 --> 00:53:35.400
directly coupled to the real world or

00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:38.640
else this is this is not possible and

00:53:38.640 --> 00:53:41.579
your body knew not to run a simulation

00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:44.280
and compute you know like if you had a

00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:46.260
self-driving car we'd have to run 10

00:53:46.260 --> 00:53:49.380
million computations which it can do

00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:50.940
because that's its strength you didn't

00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:52.619
have to run compute you didn't have to

00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:55.800
do any of that you you couldn't

00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:56.520
um

00:53:56.520 --> 00:53:58.500
yeah

00:53:58.500 --> 00:53:59.339
um

00:53:59.339 --> 00:54:03.000
so that illusion is okay what do I put

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:06.599
that illusion up it's because

00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:07.380
um

00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:09.900
first of all it shows you that that if

00:54:09.900 --> 00:54:12.000
you fiddle around and participate with

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.079
it

00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:15.599
uh

00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.180
you know like I cut the I cut the raw

00:54:18.180 --> 00:54:20.460
image into little sections I cut and

00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:23.040
paste I I duplicated the image then I

00:54:23.040 --> 00:54:25.079
cut out the little A's and B's and then

00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:27.359
I started playing with it

00:54:27.359 --> 00:54:30.180
um so number one it shows you that

00:54:30.180 --> 00:54:32.220
sometimes to see the illusion you have

00:54:32.220 --> 00:54:35.640
to add participation or to discover it

00:54:35.640 --> 00:54:38.280
right so that's part of the process the

00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:40.020
reason why it's an illusion it's a very

00:54:40.020 --> 00:54:42.000
strong illusion

00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.540
I spent a long time trying to get myself

00:54:45.540 --> 00:54:48.119
to be with the raw data I kept them like

00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:52.500
okay see this see it see it see it ah no

00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:54.240
it is

00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:55.920
so

00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:58.680
um it's because there it looks like

00:54:58.680 --> 00:55:00.839
there's a cylinder there

00:55:00.839 --> 00:55:03.859
and a shadow

00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.020
first of all you assume that it's a

00:55:07.020 --> 00:55:08.700
checkerboard and they're all the same

00:55:08.700 --> 00:55:10.559
colors

00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:11.819
right

00:55:11.819 --> 00:55:14.280
and they're not if you take that and you

00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:16.380
cut out the checkerboard is not an equal

00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:18.900
checkerboard

00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:22.680
and the checkerboard that's

00:55:22.680 --> 00:55:27.740
in front of the column

00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:34.319
is actually lighter than it looks

00:55:34.319 --> 00:55:37.319
or vice versa but your mind says well

00:55:37.319 --> 00:55:39.960
it's in Shadow so it must it must

00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:42.960
actually be really this

00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:45.780
and then it it makes that it's you know

00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:47.520
in the real world it's an error

00:55:47.520 --> 00:55:50.940
correction a useful error correction

00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:54.359
when you set up the illusion it becomes

00:55:54.359 --> 00:55:57.900
are not useful thing

00:55:57.900 --> 00:56:01.380
um but we're happy for it to for our

00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:04.079
visual system to make this error

00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.280
correction in the real world

00:56:07.819 --> 00:56:11.160
so just assumes that

00:56:11.160 --> 00:56:14.819
um yeah it assumes it's

00:56:14.819 --> 00:56:17.640
in the real world you know it's a

00:56:17.640 --> 00:56:19.380
question of

00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:21.780
uh cultures that don't exist anymore

00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:25.020
this is maybe a myth that have never

00:56:25.020 --> 00:56:27.420
seen perspectival

00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:30.660
drawings may not this illusion might not

00:56:30.660 --> 00:56:33.480
work for them I don't know

00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.280
um but in the real world it's an error

00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:38.700
correction now the important thing is

00:56:38.700 --> 00:56:41.099
that even though you can't figure it out

00:56:41.099 --> 00:56:43.319
you know it's an illusion

00:56:43.319 --> 00:56:45.660
and the analytic philosophers will say

00:56:45.660 --> 00:56:47.819
well

00:56:47.819 --> 00:56:48.559
um

00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:51.119
I don't know why we do this they

00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:53.640
discount they'll say Okay since I know

00:56:53.640 --> 00:56:55.740
it's an illusion

00:56:55.740 --> 00:56:57.480
then I know there's something to be

00:56:57.480 --> 00:56:59.640
worked out whether or not I can or not

00:56:59.640 --> 00:57:02.099
but the someone who's highly analytic

00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:04.140
would say like these rationalists

00:57:04.140 --> 00:57:08.400
they'll say uh because you can't explain

00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:11.880
it then you can't trust your common

00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:14.099
sense you know what I mean and I'm just

00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:16.920
trying to say that

00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:18.720
we need

00:57:18.720 --> 00:57:22.500
to trust our common sense and require

00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:24.780
the philosophers

00:57:24.780 --> 00:57:26.700
to

00:57:26.700 --> 00:57:29.540
uh

00:57:29.579 --> 00:57:32.760
to explain the illusion rather than

00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:35.160
trust the illusion and doubt a common

00:57:35.160 --> 00:57:37.800
sense it

00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:40.079
asks backwards as far as I'm concerned

00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:41.940
but there's something about you how do

00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:44.160
you know it's an illusion yeah there's

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:46.079
something about it that you know it's an

00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:47.819
illusion and the only way you know it is

00:57:47.819 --> 00:57:50.180
by you looking at it

00:57:50.180 --> 00:57:54.500
so you can't have it both ways

00:57:59.540 --> 00:58:01.920
magalina I'll send you the file if you

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:04.200
want to cut and paste it a million times

00:58:04.200 --> 00:58:05.280
just

00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:08.119
frustrating

00:58:10.380 --> 00:58:13.740
um no I just wanted to ask a couple of

00:58:13.740 --> 00:58:15.300
things

00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:18.540
um because uh

00:58:18.540 --> 00:58:21.260
you know isn't so much of this

00:58:21.260 --> 00:58:24.000
simulation not simulation real night

00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:25.500
real

00:58:25.500 --> 00:58:28.200
still caught up in a metaphysics of

00:58:28.200 --> 00:58:30.660
separability

00:58:30.660 --> 00:58:32.000
I mean

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:36.559
that we are not part of the real

00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:42.299
I I understand the importance of all

00:58:42.299 --> 00:58:45.920
these sensorially gated

00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:51.799
ways in which you know 2000 years

00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:56.400
um metaphysics of separability

00:58:56.400 --> 00:58:58.200
um have

00:58:58.200 --> 00:59:01.559
um conditioned us and I think they're

00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:07.200
you know I I I I would I would hope that

00:59:07.200 --> 00:59:11.240
we take it seriously enough to laugh

00:59:11.240 --> 00:59:15.059
ourselves out of them

00:59:15.059 --> 00:59:18.420
um that separability and then the the

00:59:18.420 --> 00:59:22.020
other thing I wanted to ask about is

00:59:22.020 --> 00:59:25.079
where do you situate

00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:31.200
um you know abduction in this

00:59:31.200 --> 00:59:33.319
um

00:59:34.020 --> 00:59:35.160
yeah

00:59:35.160 --> 00:59:37.380
yeah these are Big questions I mean the

00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:39.540
the first thing you said is is spot on

00:59:39.540 --> 00:59:42.140
we're building to that

00:59:42.140 --> 00:59:46.980
and I think let me try to I I usually

00:59:46.980 --> 00:59:48.839
over complexify what people say when

00:59:48.839 --> 00:59:52.140
they try to simplify what you just said

00:59:52.140 --> 00:59:54.260
um

00:59:57.599 --> 00:59:59.940
it's something that I'm actually trying

00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:02.760
to I mean I've been working on the next

01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:06.960
after Socrates for a long time and it's

01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.480
it's very in line with what Zack Stein

01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:11.400
would say just to

01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:14.700
put some tags on this but what it is is

01:00:14.700 --> 01:00:17.059
that

01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:20.700
let's talk about phenomenology you can

01:00:20.700 --> 01:00:23.220
do you can do

01:00:23.220 --> 01:00:23.819
um

01:00:23.819 --> 01:00:26.280
meditation and you can watch the

01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:28.559
phenomenon

01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:32.700
but the the phenomenon can't they can it

01:00:32.700 --> 01:00:35.880
can okay this is the thing

01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:39.420
John traviki is using facts from

01:00:39.420 --> 01:00:42.599
cognitive science from Philosophy from

01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:44.700
phenomenology and he's telling a

01:00:44.700 --> 01:00:46.799
narrative

01:00:46.799 --> 01:00:49.680
I can come in with the same facts from

01:00:49.680 --> 01:00:53.280
phenomenology cognitive science and

01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.140
philosophy and tell a different

01:00:55.140 --> 01:01:00.500
narrative because the facts don't add up

01:01:01.020 --> 01:01:05.760
you start with a we he he already has an

01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:07.500
implicit metaphysics

01:01:07.500 --> 01:01:09.960
and that is the mind is emergent from

01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:12.540
the body and not in the body

01:01:12.540 --> 01:01:15.599
the mind transcends and includes the

01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:16.740
body

01:01:16.740 --> 01:01:19.319
he may never say that but that's his

01:01:19.319 --> 01:01:21.960
implicit metaphysics

01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:23.599
so

01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:26.520
the upshot if you want to go Meta Meta

01:01:26.520 --> 01:01:28.380
on the whole project

01:01:28.380 --> 01:01:31.859
I even have it drawn out is that first

01:01:31.859 --> 01:01:38.220
you need a metaphysics and that includes

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.460
you need a metaphysics of experience and

01:01:41.460 --> 01:01:45.319
that includes phenomenology and ontology

01:01:45.319 --> 01:01:49.319
it doesn't work the other way around

01:01:49.319 --> 01:01:51.780
and so then you say well where does the

01:01:51.780 --> 01:01:55.260
metaphysics of experience come from

01:01:55.260 --> 01:01:58.260
you can't ground it in anything you

01:01:58.260 --> 01:02:00.420
can't ground it in phenomenology you

01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:02.579
can't ground it in ontology you can't

01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:05.700
ground it in philosophy or science

01:02:05.700 --> 01:02:09.619
you just declare it

01:02:10.220 --> 01:02:14.520
and so our metaphysics is the mind is in

01:02:14.520 --> 01:02:17.160
the body and the bodies in nature we

01:02:17.160 --> 01:02:19.559
start with our project by saying this is

01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:21.839
our project

01:02:21.839 --> 01:02:24.059
it may or may not be useful it may or

01:02:24.059 --> 01:02:26.579
may not catch on

01:02:26.579 --> 01:02:28.980
um but I can't convince you that the

01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:31.319
mind is in the body and that the body is

01:02:31.319 --> 01:02:34.440
in nature because we start from that as

01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:35.880
a postulate

01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:37.319
now

01:02:37.319 --> 01:02:40.619
I would like John to say this project

01:02:40.619 --> 01:02:44.280
has this so why do we start from that as

01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:47.579
a postulate because I believe we all

01:02:47.579 --> 01:02:49.559
believe there's an ethical component to

01:02:49.559 --> 01:02:50.579
it

01:02:50.579 --> 01:02:53.760
that it will help heal stop us from

01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:56.099
destroying the Earth and then maybe when

01:02:56.099 --> 01:02:57.900
we don't destroy the Earth anymore maybe

01:02:57.900 --> 01:03:00.299
it's time to do something else I don't

01:03:00.299 --> 01:03:03.540
know now I can't justify that ethical

01:03:03.540 --> 01:03:06.359
component either I just declare it's a

01:03:06.359 --> 01:03:07.980
hypothesis

01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:09.660
I tried to figure out a million

01:03:09.660 --> 01:03:11.640
different other ways and I'm like this

01:03:11.640 --> 01:03:14.400
is the only way I know and so

01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:16.680
there are so so that's where abduction

01:03:16.680 --> 01:03:18.660
comes in I'm not sure if we're using the

01:03:18.660 --> 01:03:20.640
term the right way because the abduction

01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:22.380
induction and stuff but that's what

01:03:22.380 --> 01:03:25.500
abduction comes in you start where where

01:03:25.500 --> 01:03:28.280
you want to be

01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:32.280
and then you show there's enough

01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:36.059
evidence to say this is as

01:03:36.059 --> 01:03:39.960
possible and valid as not but since this

01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:44.660
is more useful let's trash that

01:03:46.559 --> 01:03:47.700
so

01:03:47.700 --> 01:03:51.059
yes I mean however you said it the way I

01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:54.780
said it we're saying the same things

01:03:54.780 --> 01:03:58.700
um and and

01:03:59.700 --> 01:04:02.520
it looks like that we're building up

01:04:02.520 --> 01:04:04.980
parts to get to the whole but we started

01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:07.079
with that Prelude when I'm I started

01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:09.839
telling you what we were doing

01:04:09.839 --> 01:04:11.940
so

01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:15.000
yeah I mean I I think there's

01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:18.000
um not just that and nothing more I

01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:20.040
think that you know it just made me

01:04:20.040 --> 01:04:23.819
think of this little tale

01:04:23.819 --> 01:04:26.460
um of of this sand master that has a

01:04:26.460 --> 01:04:29.640
very important gas that comes to for the

01:04:29.640 --> 01:04:32.220
tea ceremony and he's pouring the tea

01:04:32.220 --> 01:04:33.960
and pouring the tea and pouring the tea

01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:36.839
finally the guests just panics and says

01:04:36.839 --> 01:04:39.720
it's already full and he's like well

01:04:39.720 --> 01:04:42.839
just just like you you're already full

01:04:42.839 --> 01:04:44.720
so

01:04:44.720 --> 01:04:48.420
you can't and and I think that we're so

01:04:48.420 --> 01:04:50.450
full of these

01:04:50.450 --> 01:04:50.880
[Music]

01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:52.859
um

01:04:52.859 --> 01:04:53.839
um

01:04:53.839 --> 01:04:57.359
Notions that you know it's not it's not

01:04:57.359 --> 01:04:58.160
about

01:04:58.160 --> 01:05:02.460
being anti-anything I mean you know most

01:05:02.460 --> 01:05:04.500
of the thinkers in our

01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:07.980
Western Canon didn't know they had 40

01:05:07.980 --> 01:05:10.559
percent of their DNA in common with

01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:12.960
bananas I mean they wouldn't have been

01:05:12.960 --> 01:05:15.299
taking themselves so seriously I don't

01:05:15.299 --> 01:05:18.480
think you know and and that's why I

01:05:18.480 --> 01:05:21.319
appreciate the fact that you're always

01:05:21.319 --> 01:05:25.500
throwing in this kind of this humor as

01:05:25.500 --> 01:05:29.460
really I think it's it's abductive you

01:05:29.460 --> 01:05:31.859
know how

01:05:31.859 --> 01:05:35.040
um because it's just we take ourselves

01:05:35.040 --> 01:05:37.380
to them seriously and not seriously

01:05:37.380 --> 01:05:40.160
enough you know to laugh

01:05:40.160 --> 01:05:43.380
it's like it's not trivial somebody has

01:05:43.380 --> 01:05:47.040
to justify what's the on the one hand

01:05:47.040 --> 01:05:49.319
the great discrepancy between us and a

01:05:49.319 --> 01:05:53.579
banana and this this factoid and they

01:05:53.579 --> 01:05:55.440
can't justify it and to us it's

01:05:55.440 --> 01:06:01.319
self-evident it means like so yeah Steve

01:06:01.319 --> 01:06:03.180
yeah I just wanted to follow on on the

01:06:03.180 --> 01:06:04.920
metaphysics point there because I'm I'm

01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:06.599
very

01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.000
um I mean I agreed from where I'm

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:11.339
telling that they're ungrounded

01:06:11.339 --> 01:06:12.839
um and but I think I think if I

01:06:12.839 --> 01:06:13.980
understood you correctly you're also

01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:16.020
saying that maybe not all

01:06:16.020 --> 01:06:18.780
um metaphysics are kind of as useful or

01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:22.079
lead to places that we want to be

01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.660
um and so that then brings me a couple

01:06:24.660 --> 01:06:26.460
of questions which is is there any

01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:28.200
usefulness or benefit in kind of

01:06:28.200 --> 01:06:29.520
charting out

01:06:29.520 --> 01:06:31.920
different you know different metaphysics

01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:33.980
where they lead you

01:06:33.980 --> 01:06:37.200
or you know and to kind of adopt a

01:06:37.200 --> 01:06:39.960
pragmatic approach to metaphysics or is

01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:41.460
it more a kind of a spontaneous

01:06:41.460 --> 01:06:43.020
moment-to-moment thing we could inhabit

01:06:43.020 --> 01:06:45.539
different metaphysical kind of spaces as

01:06:45.539 --> 01:06:47.819
as the moot takes us or is it almost

01:06:47.819 --> 01:06:49.020
more of a vision thing like you were

01:06:49.020 --> 01:06:51.000
describing maybe where we actually get

01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:53.039
the end result and then work back to the

01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:55.920
metaphysics that that yields that end

01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:59.299
result I think they're all possible like

01:06:59.299 --> 01:07:03.240
one time I had this uh group that met

01:07:03.240 --> 01:07:05.819
for three years in a collective

01:07:05.819 --> 01:07:07.559
presidency in Collective Insight

01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:09.720
practice and not toward the end we got

01:07:09.720 --> 01:07:12.299
so metaphysical and we were like parsing

01:07:12.299 --> 01:07:14.880
out time space and like and it was what

01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:16.920
I would call High High play very

01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:20.160
conceptual just really fun

01:07:20.160 --> 01:07:21.480
um

01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:24.839
and the fact that people were syncing up

01:07:24.839 --> 01:07:25.920
with

01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:29.819
the ideas and stuff was fun so

01:07:29.819 --> 01:07:32.760
um so uh and then there's different

01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:36.000
there's different layers okay so that

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:38.339
would be one the other kind of

01:07:38.339 --> 01:07:41.579
metaphysics is I don't know if you've

01:07:41.579 --> 01:07:44.039
read anything about my theory of complex

01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:45.900
potential States

01:07:45.900 --> 01:07:48.539
and I I said this is speculative

01:07:48.539 --> 01:07:53.039
metaphysics right but we don't have a

01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:56.400
show that we're lacking a way to

01:07:56.400 --> 01:07:59.039
understand certain things and I take

01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:00.839
from Whitehead I take from Christopher

01:08:00.839 --> 01:08:03.119
Alexander and Simone Dan so I showed

01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:05.940
that you know I'm not just this idiot

01:08:05.940 --> 01:08:08.400
fantasizing

01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:13.500
um and I make a case that uh complex

01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:15.240
adaptive systems thinking is

01:08:15.240 --> 01:08:18.660
epistemically closed now so so but

01:08:18.660 --> 01:08:20.880
that's a very creative amount it's still

01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:24.540
a creative imaginary it sees it sees a

01:08:24.540 --> 01:08:27.960
need to reconceptualize things I say I'm

01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:30.239
doing speculative metaphysics

01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:32.580
that's the second level it's not just

01:08:32.580 --> 01:08:35.400
High play it has a use but then there's

01:08:35.400 --> 01:08:37.980
like this thing I'm doing or we're doing

01:08:37.980 --> 01:08:40.699
and this is I think a bigger project

01:08:40.699 --> 01:08:45.060
because what it's saying is that

01:08:45.060 --> 01:08:47.400
in a time between morals let me use that

01:08:47.400 --> 01:08:48.359
trope

01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:51.779
we live in the real world and there's a

01:08:51.779 --> 01:08:55.259
disconnect between our stories our

01:08:55.259 --> 01:08:58.259
imaginaries and our metaphics and what

01:08:58.259 --> 01:09:00.299
it feels like

01:09:00.299 --> 01:09:02.880
and the person that comes

01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:05.339
and closes that Gap

01:09:05.339 --> 01:09:08.219
with an appropriate metaphysics will

01:09:08.219 --> 01:09:11.279
help the whole world change

01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:14.100
right so

01:09:14.100 --> 01:09:14.940
um

01:09:14.940 --> 01:09:16.500
and so

01:09:16.500 --> 01:09:19.739
there are other people uh Zach Stein and

01:09:19.739 --> 01:09:22.620
Mark Gaffney had Cosmo erotic humanism

01:09:22.620 --> 01:09:24.839
it's also the same project they're

01:09:24.839 --> 01:09:26.940
saying well maybe this

01:09:26.940 --> 01:09:29.940
we'll close the gap

01:09:29.940 --> 01:09:34.920
and so so I uh you know this project is

01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:38.400
born of out of lived experience over

01:09:38.400 --> 01:09:42.480
many years of noticing that

01:09:42.480 --> 01:09:46.400
there's a gap between

01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:49.560
we have all this science all this fact

01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:51.960
towards all this philosophy but the

01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:55.040
grand narrative

01:09:57.239 --> 01:10:00.120
seems to lose

01:10:00.120 --> 01:10:01.400
there's

01:10:01.400 --> 01:10:05.040
a graph that has Gap that has grown

01:10:05.040 --> 01:10:07.520
between

01:10:07.679 --> 01:10:11.340
that metaphysics those big stories and

01:10:11.340 --> 01:10:13.980
what seems self-evident so self-evident

01:10:13.980 --> 01:10:15.960
to us today and a lot of that is because

01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:17.340
of

01:10:17.340 --> 01:10:19.320
you look like you're just we're

01:10:19.320 --> 01:10:21.480
destroying to me it's because we're

01:10:21.480 --> 01:10:23.940
destroying the planet

01:10:23.940 --> 01:10:24.540
um

01:10:24.540 --> 01:10:27.659
and all the kids have mental problems

01:10:27.659 --> 01:10:29.880
and their homes everyone's insane

01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:32.219
literally I mean people are literally

01:10:32.219 --> 01:10:36.480
insane and so like okay maybe it's it's

01:10:36.480 --> 01:10:38.400
just too painful not to do anything

01:10:38.400 --> 01:10:40.520
about it

01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:42.540
some of these World Views that people

01:10:42.540 --> 01:10:45.540
are coming up with seem to be utopian

01:10:45.540 --> 01:10:46.980
and I mean that in a kind of temporal

01:10:46.980 --> 01:10:49.860
sense as in it's a future looking State

01:10:49.860 --> 01:10:51.719
and I kind of think maybe we actually

01:10:51.719 --> 01:10:54.719
need a now based State like utopian now

01:10:54.719 --> 01:10:56.159
um because I think if you if your

01:10:56.159 --> 01:10:58.199
temporal positioning is towards the

01:10:58.199 --> 01:10:59.340
future then you're always actually

01:10:59.340 --> 01:11:01.140
deferring the arrival you're always

01:11:01.140 --> 01:11:03.840
deferring the the manifestation so do

01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:06.420
you do you agree with that exactly so

01:11:06.420 --> 01:11:09.480
the thing is

01:11:09.480 --> 01:11:11.940
uh you can even call it an orienting

01:11:11.940 --> 01:11:13.739
generalization

01:11:13.739 --> 01:11:17.040
that helps us change our Behavior now

01:11:17.040 --> 01:11:19.560
let's call that

01:11:19.560 --> 01:11:22.739
a new theory of the body

01:11:22.739 --> 01:11:27.860
and because we need

01:11:29.640 --> 01:11:33.179
this helps us it's very interesting it

01:11:33.179 --> 01:11:35.120
helps us

01:11:35.120 --> 01:11:37.380
substantiate that you know the

01:11:37.380 --> 01:11:39.600
metaphysics substantiates the body and

01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:42.179
the reason why that's not top down is

01:11:42.179 --> 01:11:43.800
because as I just explained it the

01:11:43.800 --> 01:11:47.760
metaphysics comes from the value that I

01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:51.360
keep looking for it's not satisfied it's

01:11:51.360 --> 01:11:54.060
not satisfied and so the mind is also

01:11:54.060 --> 01:11:57.840
like an organ looking for

01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:01.199
what can match this feeling and then you

01:12:01.199 --> 01:12:04.800
can try on indigenous stories well sort

01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:08.040
of you can try on this well sort of you

01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:10.679
can try on techno future but it doesn't

01:12:10.679 --> 01:12:14.820
match and we're getting in this this

01:12:14.820 --> 01:12:16.500
school we're getting closer and closer

01:12:16.500 --> 01:12:20.239
to match what we already

01:12:21.360 --> 01:12:24.840
are starving for and if that's matches

01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:27.840
enough people then then it it gets a bit

01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:29.520
more attraction and if it doesn't it

01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:31.739
doesn't but

01:12:31.739 --> 01:12:33.780
um yeah so

01:12:33.780 --> 01:12:35.760
great question

01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:39.060
um yeah thanks Matt madelina for for

01:12:39.060 --> 01:12:42.000
bringing in that that it's a big

01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:44.280
question but yeah you see the difference

01:12:44.280 --> 01:12:47.820
is like even if we could just even if

01:12:47.820 --> 01:12:49.800
people we didn't agree with could

01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:51.659
substantiate

01:12:51.659 --> 01:12:54.179
their project

01:12:54.179 --> 01:12:56.159
that would be

01:12:56.159 --> 01:12:58.440
that would be more that would be helpful

01:12:58.440 --> 01:13:01.140
but it's implicit to many people they

01:13:01.140 --> 01:13:03.719
they will say they don't know you know

01:13:03.719 --> 01:13:05.460
they don't really

01:13:05.460 --> 01:13:08.640
yeah like for John verveighkey A lot of

01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:10.800
it is because he's in the academic

01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:13.739
ecosystem and you could see how a lot of

01:13:13.739 --> 01:13:16.440
what he includes has to do with

01:13:16.440 --> 01:13:19.320
where his work goes uh he says this all

01:13:19.320 --> 01:13:22.440
the time because his work is with AI and

01:13:22.440 --> 01:13:27.179
so it's the kind of ecosystem that

01:13:27.179 --> 01:13:30.260
that cap captures

01:13:30.260 --> 01:13:36.080
what he you know what what he explores

01:13:36.659 --> 01:13:39.000
I'm a hacking an amateur so I don't have

01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:42.800
to worry about any of that

01:13:48.780 --> 01:13:52.159
great conversation

01:14:00.380 --> 01:14:03.659
you notice too and I know apostle was in

01:14:03.659 --> 01:14:06.000
your your group I think

01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:09.420
um yeah what Willems group is this this

01:14:09.420 --> 01:14:13.020
is exactly the problem his tradition has

01:14:13.020 --> 01:14:16.140
they the phenomenology precedes the

01:14:16.140 --> 01:14:17.640
metaphysics

01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:20.880
and this is asked this is ass backwards

01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:23.340
right so you keep with the phenomenology

01:14:23.340 --> 01:14:26.640
oh look the object disappeared

01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:30.360
so they have a metaphysics it's he he's

01:14:30.360 --> 01:14:32.520
smarter than this but it kind of is like

01:14:32.520 --> 01:14:34.679
a metaphysics that things

01:14:34.679 --> 01:14:39.300
jump in and out of the Void right so

01:14:39.300 --> 01:14:43.380
and other people scientists uh hard

01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:45.600
scientists but reductive materialists

01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:48.719
the ontology proceeds

01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:52.140
the phenomenology in the metaphysics so

01:14:52.140 --> 01:14:54.420
uh

01:14:54.420 --> 01:14:57.060
um we'll get to that in the later half

01:14:57.060 --> 01:14:59.280
when we talk about and you know the

01:14:59.280 --> 01:15:02.820
origin stories in the new Theory which

01:15:02.820 --> 01:15:05.219
will wrap up things in these larger kind

01:15:05.219 --> 01:15:08.280
of conversations so

01:15:08.280 --> 01:15:10.080
um yeah

01:15:10.080 --> 01:15:12.540
you guys are too smart we're supposed to

01:15:12.540 --> 01:15:16.219
go really slow

01:15:16.860 --> 01:15:18.600
but I think that I don't think it's

01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:20.820
trivial that if you like investigate

01:15:20.820 --> 01:15:24.960
like something as trivial as raw data it

01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:29.280
clarifies it can help us clarify this is

01:15:29.280 --> 01:15:32.340
a really complex question and we had a

01:15:32.340 --> 01:15:34.880
somewhat

01:15:35.219 --> 01:15:39.860
easy to understand answer to it

01:15:45.420 --> 01:15:48.300
anybody have any questions

01:15:48.300 --> 01:15:52.760
as time goes by really fast for me

01:15:55.500 --> 01:15:57.360
awesome

01:15:57.360 --> 01:16:01.080
enjoy your day this was a fantastic uh

01:16:01.080 --> 01:16:03.980
conversation



## Cohort 4

00:00:02.280 --> 00:00:03.899
thank you

00:00:03.899 --> 00:00:08.040
okay so this is cohort five I think on

00:00:08.040 --> 00:00:10.860
uh perception

00:00:10.860 --> 00:00:15.780
and we've been building on it but also I

00:00:15.780 --> 00:00:19.199
think what's really helpful

00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:22.500
um like we did the other day is to start

00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:24.840
the conversation back toward the

00:00:24.840 --> 00:00:27.420
fundamentals and then keep building and

00:00:27.420 --> 00:00:29.699
and

00:00:29.699 --> 00:00:33.420
um and this this what do I mean by that

00:00:33.420 --> 00:00:35.700
what I mean is

00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:37.260
that

00:00:37.260 --> 00:00:40.379
the primary topic here is external

00:00:40.379 --> 00:00:43.040
perception

00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:45.960
um what we've been calling just being

00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:49.440
with the the raw data

00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:50.820
um

00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:53.460
and none of us like that word but we've

00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:56.100
been using it throughout this series so

00:00:56.100 --> 00:00:59.160
we could just call it the raw data

00:00:59.160 --> 00:01:03.359
um but also the uh experience of

00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:06.479
perception like uh

00:01:06.479 --> 00:01:08.460
uh

00:01:08.460 --> 00:01:11.600
What's that question

00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:15.900
um

00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:19.140
so so we've been talking about being

00:01:19.140 --> 00:01:22.979
able to experience how

00:01:22.979 --> 00:01:25.560
if I'm working with raw data and just

00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:27.840
looking you can do it all the time like

00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:29.340
I'm just looking

00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:31.920
uh it's actually the same when you go

00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:34.080
shopping if you girls are like this I

00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:36.299
don't know if guys are like this and

00:01:36.299 --> 00:01:37.979
you're looking through shirts and you

00:01:37.979 --> 00:01:39.659
know how you just at first you don't

00:01:39.659 --> 00:01:41.759
know what you want and you're just going

00:01:41.759 --> 00:01:43.380
like this especially at these like

00:01:43.380 --> 00:01:45.180
stores where they have millions you know

00:01:45.180 --> 00:01:48.420
these like kind of box stores and you

00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:50.820
you're just going like this and you're

00:01:50.820 --> 00:01:53.280
just working with color and and texture

00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:56.399
you know how we do that we just do guys

00:01:56.399 --> 00:01:58.500
see us do that we just like go through

00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:00.240
one thing after another after another

00:02:00.240 --> 00:02:02.579
and you might be wondering like what the

00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:04.619
hell are you doing like how can you

00:02:04.619 --> 00:02:07.920
process so many shirts at the same time

00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:12.180
and okay so guys have seen women do this

00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:14.940
yes and you don't know what we're doing

00:02:14.940 --> 00:02:15.900
right

00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:18.540
is this true like you guys shop

00:02:18.540 --> 00:02:20.099
differently I don't know how you shop

00:02:20.099 --> 00:02:22.920
maybe maybe this is a conversation that

00:02:22.920 --> 00:02:24.780
the men can

00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:27.300
share what's going on with them but I'll

00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:29.280
tell you what's going on with women is

00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:30.420
we're just

00:02:30.420 --> 00:02:33.000
looking for satisfaction between color

00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:34.680
and texture

00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.420
then you pull it out and you're like oh

00:02:36.420 --> 00:02:38.220
my God that's ugly you know what I mean

00:02:38.220 --> 00:02:41.519
it's like a lot of times uh

00:02:41.519 --> 00:02:44.220
yeah so you know what you want so it's

00:02:44.220 --> 00:02:46.019
pretty conceptual it's in your mind

00:02:46.019 --> 00:02:48.959
right we're just we don't know what we

00:02:48.959 --> 00:02:51.599
want until we feel it and see it and

00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:53.280
then a certain color will come out like

00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.019
this color I love this color I don't

00:02:55.019 --> 00:02:56.879
even know what this color is

00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:58.920
it's like a little bit of an orangey

00:02:58.920 --> 00:03:03.300
pink and and and so that's what we're

00:03:03.300 --> 00:03:05.819
doing and a lot of times we buy the

00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:07.800
thing because of that experience and it

00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:09.720
looks horrible on us and it's not a

00:03:09.720 --> 00:03:12.540
style that we would ever ever wear but

00:03:12.540 --> 00:03:13.700
there's this

00:03:13.700 --> 00:03:17.220
salmon it's a salmon yes it's a salmon

00:03:17.220 --> 00:03:21.540
thank you uh so so

00:03:21.540 --> 00:03:24.959
that's that's what we're doing it's a

00:03:24.959 --> 00:03:28.019
kind of immediacy uh

00:03:28.019 --> 00:03:29.239
um um

00:03:29.239 --> 00:03:33.300
now sometimes we don't do that sometimes

00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:35.340
we're looking for something really

00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:37.739
beautiful and the tailoring right like

00:03:37.739 --> 00:03:39.659
this is a different experience when

00:03:39.659 --> 00:03:41.819
you're looking for a shirt you're very

00:03:41.819 --> 00:03:44.040
interested in the Tailoring

00:03:44.040 --> 00:03:47.700
that's a different orientation

00:03:47.700 --> 00:03:52.440
yeah or smell or yeah so so

00:03:52.440 --> 00:03:55.860
one of the things that were

00:03:55.860 --> 00:04:02.640
looking for is how there's a

00:04:02.640 --> 00:04:05.099
there's something that sets the

00:04:05.099 --> 00:04:08.940
perceptual appetite in motion

00:04:08.940 --> 00:04:13.019
um and maybe this is like what uh maybe

00:04:13.019 --> 00:04:15.540
the opposite you know it's a stereotype

00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:17.880
many women but maybe the opposite is is

00:04:17.880 --> 00:04:22.320
like what what sets your perceptual

00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:27.180
uh hunting in motion when you go to shop

00:04:27.180 --> 00:04:29.639
what is what is

00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:34.860
setting uh setting that emotion

00:04:34.860 --> 00:04:38.180
um so noticing the

00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:40.440
parameters of

00:04:40.440 --> 00:04:43.860
the experience of being in raw

00:04:43.860 --> 00:04:48.479
perception so moving around that

00:04:48.479 --> 00:04:49.220
um

00:04:49.220 --> 00:04:51.180
and

00:04:51.180 --> 00:04:52.259
um

00:04:52.259 --> 00:04:54.479
yeah so that's just one example maybe

00:04:54.479 --> 00:04:58.560
some other examples came up for you but

00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.540
uh

00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:03.780
that's one way to get into that you're

00:05:03.780 --> 00:05:06.240
just working with the raw data really I

00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:07.560
mean

00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:08.699
um

00:05:08.699 --> 00:05:13.620
and if you notice as you uh gaze around

00:05:13.620 --> 00:05:19.020
the room or uh if you notice if like why

00:05:19.020 --> 00:05:22.440
people like to go to art museums and

00:05:22.440 --> 00:05:24.840
some people go and it's all very

00:05:24.840 --> 00:05:27.720
intellectual but you're just in this

00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:33.720
looking gazing posture and

00:05:34.020 --> 00:05:37.919
there's some kind of appetite for

00:05:37.919 --> 00:05:41.460
why you linger at this one and not that

00:05:41.460 --> 00:05:42.720
one you know I'm not talking about

00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.600
highly representational and then it can

00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:47.820
switch into you looking at the detail or

00:05:47.820 --> 00:05:52.820
the you know so what are these

00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:58.020
felt experiences around

00:05:58.020 --> 00:06:00.900
um the kind of simple perceptual

00:06:00.900 --> 00:06:02.940
experience

00:06:02.940 --> 00:06:04.620
um

00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:07.620
that

00:06:10.820 --> 00:06:14.060
that uh

00:06:14.699 --> 00:06:16.919
you know there I just call them a

00:06:16.919 --> 00:06:19.380
pettitive drives right I don't call them

00:06:19.380 --> 00:06:21.840
affect leading Drugs That's like if you

00:06:21.840 --> 00:06:23.699
were afraid that you lost something then

00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:27.240
the affect would be driving the

00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.360
perception but this competitive this

00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.600
this

00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:36.720
has an appetite to

00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.580
to search or to see or to satisfy its

00:06:41.580 --> 00:06:44.460
appetite and so that's one parameter we

00:06:44.460 --> 00:06:46.680
we can work with and that's the

00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:48.419
beginning

00:06:48.419 --> 00:06:53.039
the beginning of the perceptual moment

00:06:53.039 --> 00:06:55.319
I want to ask about a different kind of

00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:59.360
perception because I love the experience

00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.280
of being fascinated

00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.259
and that's perceptual experience to me

00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:05.819
and I don't care what it is it

00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:08.220
fascinates me I just I feel a pull

00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:10.440
towards being fascinated which isn't

00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:13.500
exactly like colors or spells but it's

00:07:13.500 --> 00:07:15.000
there for sure

00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.940
okay so then

00:07:17.940 --> 00:07:21.000
um we can talk about

00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:24.479
um so

00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:27.539
so this is this is a place you can talk

00:07:27.539 --> 00:07:29.880
about now we're going to talk about what

00:07:29.880 --> 00:07:33.240
we not raw data of external perception

00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:37.220
but there is a way that we perceive

00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:40.020
Concepts in our minds or thoughts or we

00:07:40.020 --> 00:07:42.780
can precede the beauty of an idea or

00:07:42.780 --> 00:07:44.220
perceive

00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:46.500
something that is

00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:48.539
not what I was just talking about which

00:07:48.539 --> 00:07:52.199
we're calling raw data and and

00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:54.660
you can be fascinated with that or

00:07:54.660 --> 00:07:57.240
fascinated with an idea or fascinated

00:07:57.240 --> 00:07:59.039
with

00:07:59.039 --> 00:08:01.620
um is this the kind of thing you're

00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:04.580
talking about being fascinated with

00:08:04.580 --> 00:08:08.520
uh or is it more like being fascinated

00:08:08.520 --> 00:08:10.800
what what do you maybe you could talk

00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.199
about this in your breakout group okay

00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:14.639
okay

00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:16.740
um who would like to talk about that in

00:08:16.740 --> 00:08:19.199
the breakout group I can

00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.360
or just like all right well just let the

00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:22.919
the system

00:08:22.919 --> 00:08:24.780
um but that's interesting that's that's

00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:28.199
the second sense of it and what we're

00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:32.159
trying to see is that they're continuous

00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.440
that there's something about being

00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:37.860
fascinated and going through that is

00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:41.039
like this thing I described that women

00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.380
do or something we want to see the

00:08:43.380 --> 00:08:45.420
continuity between the internally

00:08:45.420 --> 00:08:49.820
external experience of perception

00:08:50.839 --> 00:08:53.279
yes just about

00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:54.899
um is there a distinction between

00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:57.959
perception versus sensation

00:08:57.959 --> 00:09:00.779
yes only because we're making it you

00:09:00.779 --> 00:09:02.640
know what I mean we're we've made we've

00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:06.959
made these these these words up

00:09:06.959 --> 00:09:10.140
this is an interesting question

00:09:10.140 --> 00:09:13.380
um so we're saying Sensations are more

00:09:13.380 --> 00:09:15.240
like

00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:16.019
um

00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:18.360
what your body feels like

00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:21.480
you know I have a sensation in my body

00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:26.459
now one could say you're perceiving that

00:09:26.459 --> 00:09:28.320
um but

00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.140
foreign

00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:32.700
there is an interesting relationship

00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:35.640
between sensation and perception

00:09:35.640 --> 00:09:40.320
so one way to solve the difference we

00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:42.959
have different words so that it means it

00:09:42.959 --> 00:09:44.880
does point to something different but

00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:47.040
then you know they're so close so one

00:09:47.040 --> 00:09:51.720
way to solve that is for example to to

00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:55.320
understand that when I'm

00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:59.279
going like this through the clothes rack

00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.700
I have the sensation of satisfaction and

00:10:02.700 --> 00:10:05.820
it's not coming from my perception

00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:08.640
it's a it's it more feels like a

00:10:08.640 --> 00:10:10.440
feedback loop that something doesn't

00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:13.440
sensation is communicating with the

00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.380
perception rather than its perception

00:10:16.380 --> 00:10:19.620
itself okay so that's one way to look at

00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:20.880
it

00:10:20.880 --> 00:10:24.360
but maybe in your breakout group you can

00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.839
trace that into a little more Nuance but

00:10:27.839 --> 00:10:29.760
that's one way to understand why we

00:10:29.760 --> 00:10:33.140
think it's two different things

00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.040
um and where's the continuity between

00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:37.380
them does that make sense

00:10:37.380 --> 00:10:38.880
okay

00:10:38.880 --> 00:10:41.459
all right so we're going into breakout

00:10:41.459 --> 00:10:44.220
rooms for 45 minutes

00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:48.380
and at the top oh yeah John

00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.980
you're you're muted

00:10:52.579 --> 00:10:55.380
to bring in Awareness to the background

00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:58.620
processes which in your articles this

00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:00.779
makes perception possible

00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:04.560
yes so since yes there there are back

00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:06.839
ground processes which

00:11:06.839 --> 00:11:11.959
are are beneath or below the perception

00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.040
so

00:11:14.040 --> 00:11:17.399
and that's that could be part of it all

00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:19.079
right all the questions you're going to

00:11:19.079 --> 00:11:21.959
break out groups for

00:11:21.959 --> 00:11:24.860
45 minutes

00:11:24.860 --> 00:11:29.540
47 oh because it's 45 minutes

00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:31.200
and

00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.100
um

00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.980
enjoy your company and enjoy your

00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:37.519
conversation

00:11:46.019 --> 00:11:48.980
foreign

00:12:10.140 --> 00:12:13.140
foreign

00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:32.040
okay so I see happy faces look at Susan

00:12:32.040 --> 00:12:36.060
big happy face so encouraging nice to

00:12:36.060 --> 00:12:37.860
see you Claudia I thought we lost you

00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:43.500
due to the kerfuffle uh this morning

00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:44.760
um

00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:47.060
Okay so

00:12:47.060 --> 00:12:49.500
what stood out for you what did you

00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:52.860
learn uh make sure we we work on any

00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:55.200
definitions or confusions if they're

00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.260
still here I think we've eliminated a

00:12:58.260 --> 00:13:01.019
lot of them uh but we want to make sure

00:13:01.019 --> 00:13:04.320
we do that also and

00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.920
um yeah and uh when you report let us

00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:10.620
know who you're with and maybe give us

00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:13.139
give us a sense of whether you were with

00:13:13.139 --> 00:13:15.839
someone new and uh what that experience

00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:18.240
was like also

00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:18.959
um

00:13:18.959 --> 00:13:21.959
because you see a couple new people and

00:13:21.959 --> 00:13:25.079
uh yeah what questions you got did you

00:13:25.079 --> 00:13:28.320
dive in what rabbit holes did you fall

00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.800
into intentionally or not

00:13:31.800 --> 00:13:34.320
um yeah I would love to hear

00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.300
um what you all have to say

00:13:36.300 --> 00:13:37.920
I just want to share something that

00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:41.279
fascinated me I was with John and Willem

00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:44.820
and Kira who shows up as CLC something

00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:47.459
but what I noticed is that I can

00:13:47.459 --> 00:13:48.839
distinguish a number of different

00:13:48.839 --> 00:13:52.620
flavors of curiosity how they feel and I

00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:54.240
know which ones are going to lead me

00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.579
most likely to Fascination and that's

00:13:56.579 --> 00:13:59.940
the ones I go for I this is cool really

00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:01.200
interesting

00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.740
cool

00:14:29.880 --> 00:14:32.399
you're muted so if you're trying to

00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.820
speak

00:14:35.579 --> 00:14:37.500
no I'm actually yelling at Katie in the

00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:39.800
other room

00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.560
I did lack our conversation with uh

00:15:04.560 --> 00:15:08.639
Justin and Kira and uh Willem

00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.220
um the way

00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:13.800
we moved into the question that Justin

00:15:13.800 --> 00:15:15.839
asked and

00:15:15.839 --> 00:15:17.100
um

00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:19.019
and in and out of it we seem to play

00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:20.339
with it

00:15:20.339 --> 00:15:23.220
but we're able to it seems I don't know

00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:25.320
I'm just rambling

00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:26.639
um

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.040
played with the fact that uh we can get

00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:32.699
into uh the Flow State it's like when

00:15:32.699 --> 00:15:34.380
you're on the rack you're like in the

00:15:34.380 --> 00:15:36.360
Flow State moving with colors and

00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.060
texture uh and then you pull it out and

00:15:39.060 --> 00:15:40.620
then you went into the intellectual

00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:42.660
State or the bio you know thought

00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:45.720
processing so we move we moved in and

00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.060
out of flow and uh

00:15:48.060 --> 00:15:51.180
and trying to feel the facts

00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:55.500
uh nothing but the facts ma'am but um uh

00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:57.899
I don't know I'm rambling because this

00:15:57.899 --> 00:15:59.160
is a

00:15:59.160 --> 00:16:01.560
perception to me has turned my mind into

00:16:01.560 --> 00:16:05.579
a rambler but uh I use the Flow State uh

00:16:05.579 --> 00:16:07.680
or I should say I use uh still hunting

00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:10.079
to help me move into the actual facts

00:16:10.079 --> 00:16:11.820
that are presented in front of me in my

00:16:11.820 --> 00:16:15.839
life and then uh my mind will move into

00:16:15.839 --> 00:16:19.560
uh analysis of uh something that will

00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:21.899
take me away from that reality

00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:24.779
and it's like Kira was saying um when

00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:28.380
she's in and and she dances so dance

00:16:28.380 --> 00:16:30.959
with a proper attire she's right in the

00:16:30.959 --> 00:16:33.660
flow in the movement of the dance and

00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:35.699
and I got I didn't mention this in the

00:16:35.699 --> 00:16:37.440
group but I got to thinking if uh well

00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.019
Carol if you uh walked out with that

00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:43.680
dance uh into the public Arena how would

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:46.019
you feel about that because the clothing

00:16:46.019 --> 00:16:48.300
would be not uh

00:16:48.300 --> 00:16:50.519
it would be Sensational I'm sure but

00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.040
they would tell that you were had been

00:16:53.040 --> 00:16:56.279
in a dance recital or whatever but

00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.040
anyway I'm just rambling so I'll let

00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:03.440
anyone else uh carry on

00:17:25.260 --> 00:17:27.799
but

00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:49.580
foreign

00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.299
just before now what my takeaway was is

00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:14.400
that we can have our cognition fully

00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:18.419
functional without being in our hand

00:18:18.419 --> 00:18:21.000
so it seems like we can be in a in a

00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.000
flow State and it everything is just

00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.360
spontaneously very intimately

00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:29.880
in a in a state of presence

00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:31.799
and

00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:33.660
um but it doesn't seem to interfere with

00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:36.059
our cognitive abilities to to word

00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.580
everything it even makes it more more

00:18:38.580 --> 00:18:42.840
more sharp and acute and more

00:18:42.840 --> 00:18:45.419
um in resonance with each other

00:18:45.419 --> 00:18:47.280
restful night from my brain I would

00:18:47.280 --> 00:18:48.440
expect

00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.240
difficulties or where does my cognition

00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.820
go if I'm not squeezing something in my

00:18:53.820 --> 00:18:56.220
brain over here

00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.380
and it was just very enjoyable and

00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:00.559
beautiful

00:19:02.580 --> 00:19:04.679
I think that's the gist of what our

00:19:04.679 --> 00:19:08.000
group got to

00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:12.080
thanks for saying that

00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.799
yeah so that's that's great that's a

00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.320
like part of the process here is

00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:28.640
building Trust

00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.539
that

00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.720
and and it's kind of a mind that

00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.900
most of what we need to flourish

00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:40.200
is given to us freely if we just let the

00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:41.400
system

00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.120
do what it what it it it knows how to do

00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:48.120
that we don't know how to do

00:19:48.120 --> 00:19:52.260
it's kind of a

00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.580
yeah it's got those two qualities to

00:19:56.580 --> 00:19:57.980
trust

00:19:57.980 --> 00:20:03.620
to trust and also

00:20:06.179 --> 00:20:08.820
coming to terms with the fact that it's

00:20:08.820 --> 00:20:13.140
all kind of freely available to us

00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:17.240
through no effort of Our Own

00:20:20.280 --> 00:20:22.740
just like whatever

00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:25.320
skills and capacities the animals and

00:20:25.320 --> 00:20:27.240
the plants and the Sun and the trees

00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:28.080
have

00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:30.660
uh has been given to them

00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:34.760
through no effort of Their Own

00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.500
so yeah something like that

00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:44.059
I'm hearing you say

00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:47.760
um Lena I think you had your hand raised

00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:49.559
but I'm not sure you're bouncing around

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.100
my screen

00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:55.860
I did

00:20:55.860 --> 00:20:58.559
I feel this deep rooted

00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.980
self-consciousness

00:21:00.980 --> 00:21:02.880
that is

00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.299
yeah I just

00:21:05.299 --> 00:21:09.780
it's so strange to talk about flow and

00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:11.539
sit with this like

00:21:11.539 --> 00:21:15.660
preconceived like idea that everything

00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:18.299
I'm yeah Neurosis

00:21:18.299 --> 00:21:21.900
um but um one thing that came up in our

00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:23.059
group would

00:21:23.059 --> 00:21:25.320
Rey and Brian

00:21:25.320 --> 00:21:26.760
was

00:21:26.760 --> 00:21:31.020
so curious on that note was perception

00:21:31.020 --> 00:21:33.480
we didn't really delve in

00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:38.580
but perception and projection how

00:21:38.580 --> 00:21:41.760
people project onto each other and how

00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:46.020
that breaks us out of the Flow State

00:21:46.020 --> 00:21:49.380
it was something that sparked a lot of

00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:52.020
curiosity

00:21:52.020 --> 00:21:54.840
um within my own psyche so I thought I'd

00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.140
share

00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:00.780
okay so this is an inch this is a nice

00:22:00.780 --> 00:22:03.559
intersection

00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:05.400
and

00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.360
so

00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.640
you can use perception to interrupt

00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.480
projection

00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:19.620
because when you're projecting you're

00:22:19.620 --> 00:22:21.780
not really looking at what's in front of

00:22:21.780 --> 00:22:23.340
you

00:22:23.340 --> 00:22:25.799
you're not being with the fact what's

00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.100
happening there's just two people here

00:22:29.100 --> 00:22:32.539
what you want to try to do is get to the

00:22:32.539 --> 00:22:36.600
raw data and work from there so what's

00:22:36.600 --> 00:22:39.179
happening there's two people here do I

00:22:39.179 --> 00:22:41.039
know anything about the person that's

00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.980
here no I don't know anything about the

00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:46.440
person that's here now that might make

00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:48.480
you nervous I don't know anything about

00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.520
them but it's a better place to start

00:22:50.520 --> 00:22:51.960
than

00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:53.580
you know you know I think the

00:22:53.580 --> 00:22:55.559
nervousness comes first and we're all

00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.720
susceptible to one degree or another to

00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.820
arousal

00:22:59.820 --> 00:23:01.799
because it's Bodies In Space you get

00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:03.780
more Bodies In Space the bodies are

00:23:03.780 --> 00:23:06.000
going to distort or bend the space or

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.120
curb the space so the arousal comes up

00:23:09.120 --> 00:23:11.460
and it's better to say oh the arousals

00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.039
come up its body's in space yes I feel

00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:16.799
that but I have no idea who this person

00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.100
is

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:23.700
I can look and see I get some kind of

00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:27.419
impression from the external I'm going

00:23:27.419 --> 00:23:30.179
to wait and get other impressions

00:23:30.179 --> 00:23:33.480
uh I'm very curious about who this

00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:34.919
person is

00:23:34.919 --> 00:23:38.220
and the rest is stories that come up try

00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:42.720
to fill that space of Unknowing with

00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:48.559
false knowing with delusion right so so

00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:52.740
if you pay attention to what you're

00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:55.440
participating with then you can just say

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.059
well those are

00:23:57.059 --> 00:23:59.520
pre you know projections or

00:23:59.520 --> 00:24:02.520
preconceptions or post-conceptions

00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:05.159
and can I be

00:24:05.159 --> 00:24:08.539
right here now

00:24:08.539 --> 00:24:11.940
wondering what this person is like or

00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:15.360
where's this conversation going to go

00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:16.440
um

00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.900
maybe noticing that they have a deep

00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:22.380
voice or noticing that they articulate a

00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:25.220
certain way or noticing like wow

00:24:25.220 --> 00:24:27.720
noticing the postures they're taking

00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.659
noticing the postures you're taking why

00:24:30.659 --> 00:24:32.640
am I taking that posture I don't take

00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:36.080
this kind of posture you know noticing

00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:38.400
these these

00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.559
these

00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.559
things that people think are trivial but

00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.020
they're not trivial they're composing

00:24:46.020 --> 00:24:47.280
everything

00:24:47.280 --> 00:24:51.200
that is possible in the space

00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:53.700
so

00:24:53.700 --> 00:24:55.380
um

00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:57.720
you know you can play certain game what

00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.120
kind of flower is this

00:25:00.120 --> 00:25:03.140
in front of me

00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.820
you know like when you go traveling and

00:25:05.820 --> 00:25:07.740
you see certain kinds of plants in the

00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.260
tropics that you never saw before it's

00:25:10.260 --> 00:25:14.900
like what is what is that

00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:19.020
foreign so you can reclaim like the

00:25:19.020 --> 00:25:22.860
arousal energy and put it toward

00:25:22.860 --> 00:25:27.799
um curiosity and perceptual

00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.799
so one of the things in our in our um

00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:38.940
group that that really

00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:43.260
um generated a lot of energy was

00:25:43.260 --> 00:25:47.220
talking about projection as a dad with a

00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:49.020
daughter who's

00:25:49.020 --> 00:25:52.860
who's now in a really an adult two

00:25:52.860 --> 00:25:55.919
daughters that are and um

00:25:55.919 --> 00:25:57.779
and how that

00:25:57.779 --> 00:26:01.200
parental fatherly you should do this you

00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.600
ought to think you know and all that and

00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:07.860
all that ex life experience that that

00:26:07.860 --> 00:26:11.039
you think you're you know but all you

00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:13.260
know what that creates

00:26:13.260 --> 00:26:15.659
um and um

00:26:15.659 --> 00:26:18.240
so that's where we we we're surfing on

00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:22.260
that on that projection of

00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:25.260
between

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:28.320
human beings and that in that state and

00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:31.980
then really how that take how it really

00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:34.270
can contract

00:26:34.270 --> 00:26:34.860
[Music]

00:26:34.860 --> 00:26:36.480
um

00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.179
as opposed to being creative you know

00:26:39.179 --> 00:26:42.740
and that's and so this is where we were

00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:45.659
surfing back and forth between the

00:26:45.659 --> 00:26:49.440
affect emotion side of things and it in

00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.640
per in perception but it really was

00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.679
alive in our in our discussion because

00:26:55.679 --> 00:26:58.440
we could could really feel

00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.880
um

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:02.340
how those projections are

00:27:02.340 --> 00:27:04.799
can can be

00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.260
if they're pointing to something as

00:27:07.260 --> 00:27:09.659
opposed to point out then it isn't that

00:27:09.659 --> 00:27:12.020
should it's more of sharing something

00:27:12.020 --> 00:27:14.700
that uh

00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:17.640
something that more you know

00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:21.840
you know more of what we're seeing and

00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:25.760
not being so that doesn't land

00:27:25.760 --> 00:27:28.799
personally like that or if it does that

00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.140
there's there's a there's a sense of

00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:33.900
feeling in that there's still something

00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:37.020
in the language and the energy that that

00:27:37.020 --> 00:27:38.600
uh

00:27:38.600 --> 00:27:41.760
and maybe that that perception allows us

00:27:41.760 --> 00:27:44.100
to to

00:27:44.100 --> 00:27:47.000
uh

00:27:48.299 --> 00:27:49.980
to choose some different language or

00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:53.460
hold space a little differently

00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:59.220
yeah so if you're in a loop like that

00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:01.380
and you said this

00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:05.179
it's if you're projecting it's because

00:28:05.179 --> 00:28:09.419
the projection is comes from arousal

00:28:09.419 --> 00:28:11.640
energy

00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.159
so you have to get even deeper than that

00:28:14.159 --> 00:28:18.299
like what why are you off balance when

00:28:18.299 --> 00:28:19.919
you're when your daughter is there

00:28:19.919 --> 00:28:21.779
anyways

00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:25.919
what is it it's already

00:28:25.919 --> 00:28:28.520
there's something already

00:28:28.520 --> 00:28:32.039
disrupting your dispositional state and

00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.840
doesn't have anything to do with your

00:28:33.840 --> 00:28:37.980
daughter it's it's a dispositional state

00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:40.740
um are you angry

00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:43.380
about

00:28:43.380 --> 00:28:46.679
where this where what the situation are

00:28:46.679 --> 00:28:51.200
you fearful about the situation

00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:55.919
are you panicked about the situation

00:28:55.919 --> 00:28:58.679
which one of those is it

00:28:58.679 --> 00:29:02.159
now if you think it's many of them then

00:29:02.159 --> 00:29:04.440
you haven't you haven't

00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:07.260
been honest with yourself

00:29:07.260 --> 00:29:09.299
sometimes I'm Panic sometimes I'm this

00:29:09.299 --> 00:29:12.240
sometimes I'm not that's just more where

00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:14.340
the arousal energy is trying to like

00:29:14.340 --> 00:29:16.980
distract you

00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:21.120
there's something very fundamental

00:29:22.020 --> 00:29:25.460
that is at the root

00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:28.260
that you don't talk about you don't

00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:31.580
share with your daughter you don't even

00:29:31.580 --> 00:29:36.380
uh disclose it to yourself

00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:42.840
and if you can't get to that then

00:29:42.840 --> 00:29:45.299
there's no when to

00:29:45.299 --> 00:29:48.500
the loopiness

00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:54.960
is it disappointment is it fear is it

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:56.700
disappointment in yourself is it

00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:58.679
disappointment in the other person which

00:29:58.679 --> 00:30:00.720
is probably disappointment and what what

00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.840
is it is it panic because

00:30:03.840 --> 00:30:06.899
you'd like to be more connected and and

00:30:06.899 --> 00:30:09.779
there's too much distance that's a panic

00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:12.299
one right the fear of losing not being

00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:15.720
connect which you have to get down to

00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.059
one of the

00:30:17.059 --> 00:30:20.880
core affects that's creating the energy

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:24.179
that creates the arousal that creates a

00:30:24.179 --> 00:30:25.980
story that creates a projection that

00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:29.659
creates the loops

00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:35.100
but you know there's only a handful of

00:30:35.100 --> 00:30:38.419
them and and and it's it's it's

00:30:38.419 --> 00:30:40.520
interesting work

00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:44.039
to try to get at which one it is and it

00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.679
won't feel like you made up your mind

00:30:46.679 --> 00:30:50.600
it'll feel like gunk

00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:58.380
you know I'm really angry how I'm really

00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:01.640
panicked and scared

00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:11.059
I can't remember what the third one is

00:31:12.899 --> 00:31:16.380
fearful I'm really fearful I'm fearful

00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:19.799
that if I actually was honest

00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.500
with what I see I won't I won't I

00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:25.799
wouldn't like it I wouldn't love it

00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.700
be another one

00:31:30.659 --> 00:31:35.700
kinds of problems are only resolved when

00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:40.159
that the resolved at that level

00:31:44.179 --> 00:31:47.220
and that must relate to unconscious

00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:49.320
processing

00:31:49.320 --> 00:31:52.080
doesn't it to some degree I'm just

00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:53.760
looking at your article here a little

00:31:53.760 --> 00:31:56.760
bit now there's subconscious you can get

00:31:56.760 --> 00:31:58.380
at them

00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:02.220
yeah unconscious processing is like is

00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:05.820
is is literally like my liver is doing

00:32:05.820 --> 00:32:08.100
something and I can't I can't

00:32:08.100 --> 00:32:09.960
or you know

00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.960
uh the stuff that's really unconscious

00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.700
is

00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:16.440
more like

00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:19.279
physiology

00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:20.159
um

00:32:20.159 --> 00:32:22.039
okay

00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:26.539
that's like I kept getting into

00:32:26.539 --> 00:32:30.539
arguments in cars for a while with

00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:33.000
friends and it just was a repeating

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:35.220
pattern and long story short I did the

00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:39.419
work and I realized oh I had been in a

00:32:39.419 --> 00:32:42.600
car accident I'm scared shitless in cars

00:32:42.600 --> 00:32:45.840
so having hard conversations while

00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:49.320
people are driving in cars or I mean I'm

00:32:49.320 --> 00:32:51.480
naturally aroused and then higher

00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:54.240
emotions around me more

00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.899
so I came to the conclusion I don't have

00:32:57.899 --> 00:33:01.620
difficult conversations in cars and tell

00:33:01.620 --> 00:33:04.620
people I don't feel comfortable in a car

00:33:04.620 --> 00:33:09.000
I am anxious and nervous I'm scared of

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.559
car wrecks

00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.140
do the work to get over the fear but

00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:17.580
also understand that I just can't have

00:33:17.580 --> 00:33:20.519
hard conversations while driving or in

00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:24.240
cars yeah and the emotion Was Fear It

00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.820
Was Fear it was scary root affect Was

00:33:26.820 --> 00:33:30.539
Fear was fear that was something yeah

00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:32.640
yeah and then the emotion that might

00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.720
arise in the car is oh you always talk

00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.539
like that or whatever and that's that's

00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:42.720
the arousal state is fear and then lots

00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:44.820
of emotions come up in the conversation

00:33:44.820 --> 00:33:46.440
yeah

00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.980
yep and I project it and I can be I

00:33:49.980 --> 00:33:53.220
pulled in a lot of those situations but

00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:55.980
I was able to work through that and I

00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:59.580
don't do that anymore I learned so and I

00:33:59.580 --> 00:34:01.500
just want to be clear I mean that's a

00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:03.179
little different situation because it's

00:34:03.179 --> 00:34:05.220
more objective it's like somebody in a

00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:06.419
car

00:34:06.419 --> 00:34:10.440
um if you find out that you're I mean I

00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:13.800
if you find out that you're angry

00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.320
it's the point of getting to the root

00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:18.780
affect is not to then say well I

00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:20.280
shouldn't be angry

00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:26.339
is to confront that and say you know I'm

00:34:26.339 --> 00:34:30.000
really angry or I'm really scared I'm

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:33.119
scared about what's going to happen to

00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:36.919
you it's about it's about

00:34:36.919 --> 00:34:41.460
reclaiming that which is actually the

00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:44.820
case in your case so like you I'm scared

00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:46.560
of cars it sounds like the most

00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:49.080
ridiculous thing to say in the 21st

00:34:49.080 --> 00:34:52.139
century but you know what I'm scared to

00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:55.619
ride in cars and maybe one day I won't

00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:58.080
be who knows it's not it is what it is

00:34:58.080 --> 00:34:59.580
right

00:34:59.580 --> 00:35:05.720
so it's not to to it's not to

00:35:06.180 --> 00:35:10.260
yeah that's not to

00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:13.200
pretend once you get to that root affect

00:35:13.200 --> 00:35:15.300
that you can just oh that's what it is

00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:17.520
I'm not going to be like that anymore

00:35:17.520 --> 00:35:19.200
it's too

00:35:19.200 --> 00:35:22.160
it's to

00:35:22.160 --> 00:35:27.320
unify with it that that's that's

00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:31.560
that's what it's been all along you know

00:35:31.560 --> 00:35:35.180
like like

00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:39.119
exactly

00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.220
and then you can be getting the work too

00:35:41.220 --> 00:35:44.220
which I have and I'm not scared of being

00:35:44.220 --> 00:35:46.619
in cars anymore and I'm able to have

00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:49.079
conversations but the only reason that

00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:52.079
work was done was because I was able to

00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.960
get the rude emotion of fear and work

00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.560
through that fear right so at least when

00:35:58.560 --> 00:36:00.300
you're in the car and you're fearful you

00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.280
go back to working with the fear versus

00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:05.579
getting so complex you're already in a

00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:09.660
yeah yeah so you're trying to work at

00:36:09.660 --> 00:36:12.660
the lowest level of complexity as Pro

00:36:12.660 --> 00:36:15.000
possible and then when you're build

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.859
capacity then you go back and maybe you

00:36:16.859 --> 00:36:20.880
have to come back and yeah

00:36:23.160 --> 00:36:27.920
but these are these are the you know

00:36:29.339 --> 00:36:32.839
this is this is

00:36:35.339 --> 00:36:40.200
so the projection is part of

00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:43.680
a strategy to not confront the primary

00:36:43.680 --> 00:36:46.339
arousal

00:36:47.220 --> 00:36:51.599
so you you you're not able just to see

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:54.839
the raw data

00:36:54.839 --> 00:36:57.599
it's being infiltrated or elaborated by

00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.119
the projection

00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.060
and that it you'll notice that there's

00:37:03.060 --> 00:37:05.040
many different projections It's gotta

00:37:05.040 --> 00:37:06.839
it's got to keep you on your feet so

00:37:06.839 --> 00:37:09.480
it's not this one then it's that one and

00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:10.980
then I would convince you it's something

00:37:10.980 --> 00:37:13.020
else

00:37:13.020 --> 00:37:16.640
so you don't get suspicious

00:37:18.540 --> 00:37:20.160
you'll blame the other one and then

00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:22.079
you'll blame yourself for projecting and

00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.579
then you'll blame the other you know go

00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:27.540
back and forth right so

00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:31.500
so good does anybody else in that group

00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:33.480
want to talk about like the projections

00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:36.300
with the conversation was I guess Rey

00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:37.560
and

00:37:37.560 --> 00:37:41.700
and I forget who else was there lean I

00:37:41.700 --> 00:37:43.820
think

00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:46.560
yeah no I don't necessarily need to talk

00:37:46.560 --> 00:37:49.020
about that but it's

00:37:49.020 --> 00:37:51.240
really helpful to

00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:54.359
to take that Loop and kind of

00:37:54.359 --> 00:37:57.000
unplug it from conversation and run it

00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.020
through

00:37:58.020 --> 00:38:00.780
actually what's occurring

00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:02.900
um

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.460
this this notion that projection comes

00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:06.900
from arousal

00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:11.359
is really that really landed

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:15.140
yeah thank you

00:38:19.740 --> 00:38:21.560
you can go the other way too like

00:38:21.560 --> 00:38:24.480
arousal you you walk into the room and

00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:26.520
like there's a lot of like lust

00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:29.339
happening and you just project on this

00:38:29.339 --> 00:38:31.680
person that they're like the funnest

00:38:31.680 --> 00:38:35.280
most you know that happens too right so

00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.020
you just project that they're perfect

00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:40.560
and and and you know so it can be that

00:38:40.560 --> 00:38:42.180
kind of it can be that kind of

00:38:42.180 --> 00:38:44.220
projection too and

00:38:44.220 --> 00:38:46.079
um yeah

00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:47.760
it's not always

00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.700
which is also problematic but it feels

00:38:50.700 --> 00:38:54.320
better at least when it's first running

00:38:58.140 --> 00:39:00.599
what strikes me about what you were

00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:02.400
saying or this this part about

00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.940
projection is the what bunny described

00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:10.320
as the ability of perception to

00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.560
took that the scale of coming back into

00:39:13.560 --> 00:39:16.140
perceptive qualities of what is actually

00:39:16.140 --> 00:39:17.520
happening

00:39:17.520 --> 00:39:21.720
can can start to deal with the with the

00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:24.780
loop of projection and arousal and I

00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:26.520
think that's a really

00:39:26.520 --> 00:39:29.400
that's just so useful

00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:31.859
yeah and there's an order to this right

00:39:31.859 --> 00:39:35.339
so if you find you you're projecting it

00:39:35.339 --> 00:39:38.640
means you know like I don't have any

00:39:38.640 --> 00:39:40.560
idea who this person is

00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:44.160
because everything that's coming into my

00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:46.560
my interpretation I can feel as a

00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:47.880
projection

00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.599
so you can't get at the raw data

00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.820
um and so that's why if you can't get at

00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:55.859
the raw data you have to go back you

00:39:55.859 --> 00:39:58.800
know to the more primary which is what

00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:02.820
is the nature of the arousal state

00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:05.460
and that happens a lot like

00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:08.339
if you're triggered by someone you can

00:40:08.339 --> 00:40:12.000
feel yourself like I'm like being so

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.040
triggered by the stories that you've

00:40:14.040 --> 00:40:18.060
heard or whatever it is that you can't

00:40:18.060 --> 00:40:20.400
see who the person is

00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:23.760
like it's hard for you to to use just

00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:25.619
the perception

00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:28.400
foreign

00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:32.160
in that case you have to resolve it at

00:40:32.160 --> 00:40:34.680
the you know not the next complicated

00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:37.140
level because that just rides on the

00:40:37.140 --> 00:40:40.560
problem but at the deeper arousal level

00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:43.980
and there's many times where you

00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:45.720
um

00:40:45.720 --> 00:40:47.700
you know like I've had an experience

00:40:47.700 --> 00:40:51.480
with someone at work in a place I used

00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.119
to work at and there was like

00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:57.359
a transgression happened that was very

00:40:57.359 --> 00:41:00.660
so deep and then I couldn't I couldn't

00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:02.820
get back to square one with this person

00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:05.579
every time I looked at them it was like

00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:07.859
the old story would come

00:41:07.859 --> 00:41:12.859
and and I could tell like

00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:15.740
everything they did was already

00:41:15.740 --> 00:41:18.780
interpreted by this old transgression

00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:24.960
and so the way to uh deal with that was

00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.260
one time I just said you know ever I had

00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:30.839
to say I didn't I it wasn't made

00:41:30.839 --> 00:41:32.400
explicit I'm like ever since that

00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.040
happened this is how I felt and this is

00:41:35.040 --> 00:41:38.160
how I still feel and it's not resolved

00:41:38.160 --> 00:41:42.960
you know and then in that dialogue

00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.619
it became old news

00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.900
and so then it was old news versus

00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:51.000
versus

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.400
something that was always riding on the

00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:55.920
present right so somebody would say oh

00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:57.660
you know so-and-so did this isn't it

00:41:57.660 --> 00:41:59.400
great I'm like oh I bet he's like you

00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:03.060
know I mean I couldn't even experience

00:42:03.060 --> 00:42:04.680
I could tell other people were

00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:06.960
experiencing the positive of this person

00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:10.079
but there was no I had to update my

00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:12.780
operating system with this person and I

00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:15.000
could tell it was just all projection

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.540
foreign

00:42:18.140 --> 00:42:22.260
there was I was really mad I was really

00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.359
mad but it was justified or not wasn't

00:42:24.359 --> 00:42:26.400
the issue

00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:30.720
but that was really mad at something

00:42:30.720 --> 00:42:32.220
that happened

00:42:32.220 --> 00:42:35.660
I can't even remember what it was

00:42:36.839 --> 00:42:40.500
so it shows you how like these things

00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:42.119
can

00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:43.140
yeah

00:42:43.140 --> 00:42:46.820
be persistent or not

00:42:48.140 --> 00:42:50.880
so what you've described there is kind

00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:54.000
of like closing a loop that you had like

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:56.099
a kind of

00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:58.800
like a loop left open within the

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.440
relationship that hadn't been closed

00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:04.040
properly and that was consistently

00:43:04.040 --> 00:43:07.619
interfering with how you how your

00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:10.920
percept you were perceiving this person

00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:12.900
exactly I wasn't perceiving them

00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:16.079
perceiving them in this other way we use

00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.599
that word but projecting them I wasn't

00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:22.260
actually perceptually aware of them yeah

00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:24.839
it's something that wasn't

00:43:24.839 --> 00:43:27.839
wasn't addressed in the past so it

00:43:27.839 --> 00:43:29.220
stayed

00:43:29.220 --> 00:43:31.920
it stayed nagging me in the present but

00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.440
once it's fixed it's like then it can

00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:36.540
then it's fine it lives in the past you

00:43:36.540 --> 00:43:39.000
can tell the story like I'm telling it

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.040
now but I don't I don't

00:43:41.040 --> 00:43:44.819
can't feel it anymore you know so it's

00:43:44.819 --> 00:43:46.579
in the past where it should be

00:43:46.579 --> 00:43:49.500
participating as a past story that's

00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:52.380
fine you learn something but it's no

00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:56.099
longer active in the in in the present

00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:59.099
Holly

00:44:03.240 --> 00:44:07.380
yes sometimes I notice with projection

00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:10.440
um the move I'm making is I'm disowning

00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.380
something within myself

00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:16.260
um and so I find that when I go back

00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:18.800
into that place of um

00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:22.020
remembering that I'm all of this is is

00:44:22.020 --> 00:44:24.300
me actually all this is just a

00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:27.540
reflection then that Curiosity can come

00:44:27.540 --> 00:44:29.700
from online instead of

00:44:29.700 --> 00:44:31.680
annoyance or

00:44:31.680 --> 00:44:32.220
um

00:44:32.220 --> 00:44:35.240
parts of myself that maybe I'm not

00:44:35.240 --> 00:44:38.220
looking at or acknowledging

00:44:38.220 --> 00:44:40.319
and like I've been doing that out here

00:44:40.319 --> 00:44:44.579
and and um really just trying to gaze at

00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:47.099
and look at things that I normally find

00:44:47.099 --> 00:44:49.020
gross or

00:44:49.020 --> 00:44:51.540
distasteful or disgusting

00:44:51.540 --> 00:44:52.140
um

00:44:52.140 --> 00:44:54.420
really kind of confronting deaths in

00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:56.520
some ways to watching animals Decay

00:44:56.520 --> 00:44:58.560
looking at my own those kinds of

00:44:58.560 --> 00:45:02.280
things and it helps bring more Wonder

00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:04.140
instead of judgment

00:45:04.140 --> 00:45:06.420
um kind of Robert about brought this up

00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:08.040
in in our group it was Robert and myself

00:45:08.040 --> 00:45:10.740
Zoe and David

00:45:10.740 --> 00:45:12.599
um that cultural conditioning that we

00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:16.440
have to to find certain things gross

00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:18.960
um so I've been called there's been an

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:20.400
invitation for me to look at the things

00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:22.200
that we culturally conceive as really

00:45:22.200 --> 00:45:26.480
gross and finding myself in those things

00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:47.099
yeah like kids they're fascinated with

00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:50.839
gross fascinated with gross things right

00:45:50.839 --> 00:45:55.560
they are it's like and then

00:45:55.560 --> 00:45:57.300
um

00:45:57.300 --> 00:46:01.520
yeah we lose that after a while but

00:46:06.240 --> 00:46:09.060
I I almost feel like that's a prompt for

00:46:09.060 --> 00:46:11.579
us to talk about our group Holly thank

00:46:11.579 --> 00:46:13.760
you

00:46:14.520 --> 00:46:17.640
um I think what we did might take away

00:46:17.640 --> 00:46:20.520
is what's happening now

00:46:20.520 --> 00:46:23.900
is that we tried to

00:46:23.900 --> 00:46:26.339
slow down

00:46:26.339 --> 00:46:29.099
and sense into

00:46:29.099 --> 00:46:34.579
the elements of what we were feeling

00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:38.040
and like

00:46:38.040 --> 00:46:41.819
um I'm I feel uh emotionally touched to

00:46:41.819 --> 00:46:44.400
recalling

00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:45.180
um

00:46:45.180 --> 00:46:49.079
this sequence that we talked about the

00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:51.780
potency of a word

00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:54.480
and then how

00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:59.040
the tonal quality of the way the word is

00:46:59.040 --> 00:47:02.339
shared from one person to another

00:47:02.339 --> 00:47:05.940
has a has a

00:47:05.940 --> 00:47:08.640
impact on us the arousal kind of like

00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:10.319
being in the car

00:47:10.319 --> 00:47:13.260
that it's not only the meaning of the

00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:17.160
word we put on it but it's the tone

00:47:17.160 --> 00:47:21.720
how it's shared and Zoe

00:47:21.720 --> 00:47:24.720
made a comment that that is the source

00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:26.640
of how I'm emotionally touched he said

00:47:26.640 --> 00:47:30.440
that's why we created the song

00:47:30.839 --> 00:47:33.119
you know it's just this it's beautiful

00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:34.920
and

00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:36.920
um

00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:43.740
so it was from Holly's original question

00:47:43.740 --> 00:47:46.200
of sensation and perception trying to

00:47:46.200 --> 00:47:47.960
get into

00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:50.880
that and

00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:52.680
um unravel

00:47:52.680 --> 00:47:58.339
that so it was a very it was a very uh

00:48:06.839 --> 00:48:12.140
for me it was a valuable time spent

00:48:13.500 --> 00:48:14.400
um

00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.099
given that you've determined Bonnie that

00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:18.790
I value connection

00:48:18.790 --> 00:48:19.980
[Music]

00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:24.000
so it was and I was with three ladies

00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:26.460
that are uh what I call

00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:28.800
OG's around the pop-up School old

00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.579
gangsters

00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:33.000
um

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:36.079
we ended up

00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.119
sharing

00:48:39.420 --> 00:48:43.339
that all four of us are weird

00:48:46.319 --> 00:48:49.400
and uh

00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:00.599
that we didn't want to stop the breakout

00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.339
room

00:49:02.339 --> 00:49:04.079
that we wanted to get one of those

00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.040
buttons that you talked about to push

00:49:07.040 --> 00:49:09.180
keep going

00:49:09.180 --> 00:49:13.160
not 16 seconds left

00:49:18.060 --> 00:49:20.760
you know I was thinking

00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:23.460
of maybe later

00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:26.280
we not not until we get through memory

00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:29.339
because those these these three modules

00:49:29.339 --> 00:49:32.880
are the most important but we're like

00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:36.720
there's a continual breakout group

00:49:36.720 --> 00:49:40.140
like Rome that people could go into if

00:49:40.140 --> 00:49:42.359
they're like like especially if we start

00:49:42.359 --> 00:49:44.160
talking about pure abstractions maybe

00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:46.020
it's not for everyone Justin will be

00:49:46.020 --> 00:49:49.560
there with me hopefully uh so uh Steve

00:49:49.560 --> 00:49:52.560
Todd some of those but

00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:53.520
um

00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:55.800
you know

00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:59.400
I'm I'm scared to do it because

00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:02.099
I like it anticipating

00:50:02.099 --> 00:50:03.900
like being in the main room and

00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:05.700
everybody just getting on the chat like

00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:07.200
hey meet me over there and people

00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:09.599
disappearing so

00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.599
um but but what would be interesting if

00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:14.280
we did that because the main room is

00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.740
recorded So it would give you more time

00:50:16.740 --> 00:50:21.839
to chat and still be able to uh

00:50:21.839 --> 00:50:24.900
watch the recording so maybe when we get

00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:26.339
into some of the other ones I don't

00:50:26.339 --> 00:50:30.119
think they they'll necessarily uh

00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:33.000
be for everyone so maybe we could play

00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.720
around with that format format a little

00:50:36.720 --> 00:50:39.599
well let me just add

00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:42.780
one of my values

00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:45.420
and it has to do with is Justin here yet

00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:47.220
Justin's still here

00:50:47.220 --> 00:50:52.980
I value I really value mystery

00:50:54.839 --> 00:50:57.240
and something that came up in our

00:50:57.240 --> 00:50:59.160
Breakout

00:50:59.160 --> 00:51:01.680
was

00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:04.280
you know the this

00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:07.200
expansion that we're all feeling when we

00:51:07.200 --> 00:51:10.200
try to talk about that in our lives

00:51:10.200 --> 00:51:15.300
gets very clunky and coarse

00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:17.700
with the people in our lives we don't

00:51:17.700 --> 00:51:20.339
know how to talk about this experience

00:51:20.339 --> 00:51:24.079
outside of the pop-up School

00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:28.980
so an extended breakout room or an

00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:32.480
abstract main room

00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:39.000
would allow me to satisfy that desire to

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:42.359
connect with others dealing with

00:51:42.359 --> 00:51:46.099
the mystery that we're

00:51:47.040 --> 00:51:50.000
playing with

00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:54.839
yeah I'll just say one of the things I'm

00:51:54.839 --> 00:51:57.180
noticing is that um

00:51:57.180 --> 00:51:59.099
although I learned things here I don't

00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:01.020
come here to learn things I come here

00:52:01.020 --> 00:52:03.599
because I'm fascinated here

00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:05.640
and the Mystery has something to do with

00:52:05.640 --> 00:52:06.720
that

00:52:06.720 --> 00:52:08.640
you know I take in the energy of the

00:52:08.640 --> 00:52:10.920
fascination it becomes part of me and

00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:12.780
the words of stick stick and most of

00:52:12.780 --> 00:52:14.760
them don't and that's fine

00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:16.500
okay

00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:20.579
this is beautiful it becomes part of me

00:52:20.579 --> 00:52:25.220
that's the definition of learning

00:52:25.319 --> 00:52:28.079
and actually that's like the fundamental

00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:29.760
everything else is

00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:33.540
is technical let's say

00:52:33.540 --> 00:52:36.180
um but when we talk about like remember

00:52:36.180 --> 00:52:39.780
in the in the beginning when I was kind

00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:40.800
of doing

00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.339
the larger kind of metaphysics we need

00:52:44.339 --> 00:52:47.040
the habitat and habitats

00:52:47.040 --> 00:52:48.900
do you remember that it was quite a

00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:51.500
while ago but we said when you

00:52:51.500 --> 00:52:54.599
participate in a habitat like the beaver

00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:56.819
in the pond

00:52:56.819 --> 00:52:59.040
there's something that happens internal

00:52:59.040 --> 00:53:00.420
to the beaver

00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:01.740
that

00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:04.859
is a direct result of looking and

00:53:04.859 --> 00:53:08.460
participating in stuff and that change

00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:11.040
in you is called learning

00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:15.180
right so so you're absolutely right you

00:53:15.180 --> 00:53:18.000
know the the the meaning is not in the

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:18.839
words

00:53:18.839 --> 00:53:22.980
the learning that and even if you learn

00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:25.020
the words

00:53:25.020 --> 00:53:27.359
they don't they unless you use them all

00:53:27.359 --> 00:53:29.940
the time you don't remember them

00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:32.280
but the thing that is

00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:35.059
remembered

00:53:35.059 --> 00:53:38.780
remembered your re-membered

00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:42.180
by what has changed you in the process

00:53:42.180 --> 00:53:49.200
and that remembering literally is memory

00:53:49.680 --> 00:53:53.339
um and so so I mean you said it in a

00:53:53.339 --> 00:53:55.079
different way which was beautiful

00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:56.579
because

00:53:56.579 --> 00:54:00.839
this is actually the foundation of uh

00:54:00.839 --> 00:54:03.119
transformational education doesn't

00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:05.839
matter you know that that in the end

00:54:05.839 --> 00:54:10.819
it's a process by which

00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:14.520
you are changed and it's and it should

00:54:14.520 --> 00:54:17.880
have the signature of

00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:20.579
for the better or whatever or it's or

00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:23.280
it's fun or sh it has a positive

00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:26.220
feelings a net positive valence right

00:54:26.220 --> 00:54:28.020
because for a lot of people there's a

00:54:28.020 --> 00:54:29.700
lot of negative valence when they're

00:54:29.700 --> 00:54:32.940
really working hard to transform

00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:35.460
but it needs to have a net positive

00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:38.819
violence uh in in in some sense of the

00:54:38.819 --> 00:54:40.920
word and I think what you're doing is

00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:42.900
you're maximizing the net positive

00:54:42.900 --> 00:54:46.079
balance with your attitude like why

00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:50.300
spend it's almost like

00:54:51.180 --> 00:54:53.819
you're allowing this deeper learning to

00:54:53.819 --> 00:54:56.460
have happen and not being distracted by

00:54:56.460 --> 00:55:00.180
what is actually not essential

00:55:00.180 --> 00:55:01.859
um unless you wanted to teach this stuff

00:55:01.859 --> 00:55:04.020
or you talk to a group and you want to

00:55:04.020 --> 00:55:06.660
make distinctions like we do so I think

00:55:06.660 --> 00:55:09.180
that was beautiful because

00:55:09.180 --> 00:55:11.180
um

00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:17.099
that's a real participatory way to

00:55:17.099 --> 00:55:19.859
describe

00:55:19.859 --> 00:55:22.559
describing I'll also note that I am

00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:24.900
sensitive to the velocity at which that

00:55:24.900 --> 00:55:27.240
change is occurring and I'm attracted to

00:55:27.240 --> 00:55:29.640
the velocity of the change too

00:55:29.640 --> 00:55:32.940
great thank you for that yeah

00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:34.920
and it's a mystery so you're fascinated

00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:35.940
with it

00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:38.460
right whereas if I said okay this is

00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:40.020
what we're doing this isn't going to be

00:55:40.020 --> 00:55:42.180
a virtuous Justin you're going to have

00:55:42.180 --> 00:55:44.099
these virtues when we're done it'd be

00:55:44.099 --> 00:55:47.099
boring right like it'd be kind of like I

00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:49.559
don't I mean like

00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.680
you I can get it it's like there's an

00:55:52.680 --> 00:55:54.420
allergy attack you know I'm Gonna Make

00:55:54.420 --> 00:55:56.520
You More compassionate loving kindness

00:55:56.520 --> 00:56:01.020
person and uh you'll be you know this is

00:56:01.020 --> 00:56:03.119
this is not what we're doing here we

00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:05.300
don't

00:56:08.700 --> 00:56:11.160
as I used to tell the parents of my

00:56:11.160 --> 00:56:13.619
students we only promise they'll be

00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:17.900
different we don't say they'll be better

00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:25.380
it's so interesting that you bring up

00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:27.119
memory because

00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:29.819
um it's like really recently

00:56:29.819 --> 00:56:32.579
I had this feeling

00:56:32.579 --> 00:56:36.119
um for this experience of sensing like

00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:38.220
what I'm doing now

00:56:38.220 --> 00:56:41.400
is actually helping my past self in some

00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:43.680
ways I was reflecting on

00:56:43.680 --> 00:56:45.839
moments in my past where I was really

00:56:45.839 --> 00:56:49.559
just like barely hanging on by a thread

00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:51.720
in what what was it that kept me going

00:56:51.720 --> 00:56:53.760
there was always just something really

00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.640
subtle like a really subtle whisper that

00:56:56.640 --> 00:56:57.500
really

00:56:57.500 --> 00:57:00.359
could help pull me out of that feeling

00:57:00.359 --> 00:57:02.780
of just barely hanging on

00:57:02.780 --> 00:57:06.540
and I'm kind of realizing that it's like

00:57:06.540 --> 00:57:09.359
a memory of like actually where I am now

00:57:09.359 --> 00:57:11.220
like

00:57:11.220 --> 00:57:13.559
um that there was something in me that

00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:15.599
remembered that life could look and feel

00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:17.520
really really different

00:57:17.520 --> 00:57:19.680
and

00:57:19.680 --> 00:57:22.200
so

00:57:22.200 --> 00:57:24.059
that's to say that like what I'm doing

00:57:24.059 --> 00:57:25.980
now

00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:28.079
trying to

00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:31.440
follow that aliveness and really feel

00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:33.480
into the Beauty and the magic of life is

00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:35.339
actually helping that past self of mine

00:57:35.339 --> 00:57:37.559
that was really barely hanging on like

00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:39.599
this is the echo that's Whispering back

00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:41.940
to her to for her to remember it can be

00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:44.180
different

00:57:47.819 --> 00:57:50.040
and also we're going into memory two

00:57:50.040 --> 00:57:51.180
next

00:57:51.180 --> 00:57:53.220
module so it's nice that it's starting

00:57:53.220 --> 00:57:56.940
to slip in Lena

00:57:56.940 --> 00:58:00.240
I would love to give the Florida Katie

00:58:00.240 --> 00:58:03.680
I've spoken quite a bit

00:58:09.380 --> 00:58:11.880
thank you

00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:14.040
um but feel free

00:58:14.040 --> 00:58:16.500
um I guess I was just curious if you

00:58:16.500 --> 00:58:19.140
could speak to

00:58:19.140 --> 00:58:20.640
earlier you were talking about

00:58:20.640 --> 00:58:23.700
identifying that the affect that's like

00:58:23.700 --> 00:58:26.160
actually going on and underlying things

00:58:26.160 --> 00:58:29.220
um and

00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:31.619
I have a notion that like sometimes

00:58:31.619 --> 00:58:34.319
affects can masquerade as others or

00:58:34.319 --> 00:58:36.119
there might be like some affect on top

00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:37.980
that's like blocking another affects

00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:40.260
from being experienced like how do you

00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:41.700
know

00:58:41.700 --> 00:58:43.559
which one

00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:46.559
is the rude one so to speak like a an

00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:49.740
example is like um if some kind of fear

00:58:49.740 --> 00:58:53.760
or anxiety shows up as anger

00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:56.180
future

00:58:57.240 --> 00:58:59.819
okay so

00:58:59.819 --> 00:59:01.819
um

00:59:02.579 --> 00:59:06.299
I'm not gonna get I think that if if

00:59:06.299 --> 00:59:08.099
we're at if we're at the point we're

00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:10.740
asking the question then we should try

00:59:10.740 --> 00:59:13.200
to work with the affects in a simple

00:59:13.200 --> 00:59:17.160
manner not a nuanced manner

00:59:17.160 --> 00:59:20.520
um and so the simple answer is they can

00:59:20.520 --> 00:59:25.140
move fear often moves to anger in men

00:59:25.140 --> 00:59:27.660
anger often moves to fear and women

00:59:27.660 --> 00:59:30.420
these are stereotypes

00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:36.599
um and so you can watch them move

00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:39.660
um and what you're trying to do is

00:59:39.660 --> 00:59:41.700
instead of having one contracted form

00:59:41.700 --> 00:59:43.619
move to the other

00:59:43.619 --> 00:59:45.839
to try to move where you're at to the

00:59:45.839 --> 00:59:47.819
non-contracted form or at least look at

00:59:47.819 --> 00:59:51.559
it look at one of them

00:59:51.599 --> 00:59:55.500
um so understanding which ones move

00:59:55.500 --> 00:59:59.760
um and and if you noticed what I said

00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:04.200
why does Fear usually move to anger in

01:00:04.200 --> 01:00:07.319
men and anger move to fear and women

01:00:07.319 --> 01:00:10.500
because it's culturally conditioned for

01:00:10.500 --> 01:00:13.020
that to happen

01:00:13.020 --> 01:00:15.720
men don't like to admit they're fearful

01:00:15.720 --> 01:00:20.480
and women are taught not to be angry

01:00:21.059 --> 01:00:23.579
so then which one is the authentic one

01:00:23.579 --> 01:00:25.500
someone that's not culturally

01:00:25.500 --> 01:00:28.079
conditioned now this is a simple simple

01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:31.500
the problem the thing is our lives are

01:00:31.500 --> 01:00:33.660
much more nuanced than that

01:00:33.660 --> 01:00:36.359
except when we're contracted there's not

01:00:36.359 --> 01:00:38.760
a lot of ways to be contracted in

01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:40.859
reality there's a million ways to

01:00:40.859 --> 01:00:43.020
experience Fascination and wonder and

01:00:43.020 --> 01:00:45.839
creativity but we're up in only a

01:00:45.839 --> 01:00:47.900
handful of ways

01:00:47.900 --> 01:00:52.020
so that's one way to look at it that

01:00:52.020 --> 01:00:55.500
that why does my fear move to anger

01:00:55.500 --> 01:00:58.079
because it's harder for me to admit that

01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.140
it's basically fear

01:01:01.140 --> 01:01:03.599
you can see why it works as a stereotype

01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:06.299
and I'm just using the stereotype uh it

01:01:06.299 --> 01:01:08.579
doesn't matter what sex or gender you

01:01:08.579 --> 01:01:09.839
are you could have one of the

01:01:09.839 --> 01:01:12.780
stereotypes or other if your identity is

01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:15.960
like a tough even though you're

01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:18.780
you know identify as female you'll

01:01:18.780 --> 01:01:22.740
you'll tend to go from Fear to anger

01:01:22.740 --> 01:01:25.200
um and so so

01:01:25.200 --> 01:01:29.520
uh they do move in in that way

01:01:29.520 --> 01:01:31.440
um

01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:33.960
um but there's sometimes things like

01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:35.760
that operating

01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:39.059
underneath why they seem to be moving in

01:01:39.059 --> 01:01:41.579
that way I don't know this is you know

01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:44.640
your particular situation but you can

01:01:44.640 --> 01:01:48.420
watch powder patterns patterns like that

01:01:48.420 --> 01:01:50.520
the other things that are thought of as

01:01:50.520 --> 01:01:53.280
emotion that populate Our Lives I mean

01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:56.160
as affects our emotions like jealousy

01:01:56.160 --> 01:01:58.020
and

01:01:58.020 --> 01:02:02.180
um and ambition or all these these words

01:02:02.180 --> 01:02:05.220
they have to they

01:02:05.220 --> 01:02:08.400
they are also need to be unpacked and

01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:11.819
traced to primary emotions

01:02:11.819 --> 01:02:14.400
um and you might find actually that they

01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:17.420
don't have a lot of charge like you have

01:02:17.420 --> 01:02:20.280
you're jealous of somebody who got a

01:02:20.280 --> 01:02:22.020
promotion

01:02:22.020 --> 01:02:24.599
you might actually find that yeah

01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:26.819
there's a little anger there but the

01:02:26.819 --> 01:02:28.859
anger doesn't have a lot of charge it

01:02:28.859 --> 01:02:30.720
was actually the story that had more

01:02:30.720 --> 01:02:32.940
charge that can happen sometimes too

01:02:32.940 --> 01:02:36.299
that the story has all the energy and

01:02:36.299 --> 01:02:38.579
when you trace it back down to some

01:02:38.579 --> 01:02:41.520
authentic effect

01:02:41.520 --> 01:02:44.640
it surprises you because why was I so

01:02:44.640 --> 01:02:47.220
dramatizing that when I I don't really

01:02:47.220 --> 01:02:48.839
care

01:02:48.839 --> 01:02:50.400
um so sometimes

01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.460
that's also what's popping around above

01:02:53.460 --> 01:02:55.680
the primary affect and you find out the

01:02:55.680 --> 01:02:57.960
primary active affect does it actually

01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:00.420
have hold as much charge as you would

01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:03.859
think it did because

01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:10.079
foreign

01:03:14.660 --> 01:03:17.819
yeah if you hit the space bar yeah so

01:03:17.819 --> 01:03:19.740
then if you notice the app that doesn't

01:03:19.740 --> 01:03:22.079
have a lot of charge then you know you

01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:24.540
just got caught up in the thought Loop

01:03:24.540 --> 01:03:26.819
and sometimes you might even notice it

01:03:26.819 --> 01:03:29.400
was kind of entertaining you know to go

01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:31.079
to work every day and complain that the

01:03:31.079 --> 01:03:32.760
 got the promotion and you'll

01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:34.200
notice it's actually a kind of

01:03:34.200 --> 01:03:36.000
entertainment

01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:37.980
um so that's another thing that can

01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:40.260
happen that you know all these are good

01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:42.119
questions

01:03:42.119 --> 01:03:44.339
but there was a some of the common

01:03:44.339 --> 01:03:47.599
things that that happened

01:03:47.880 --> 01:03:50.760
thank you you're welcome good question

01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:53.299
Lena

01:03:53.579 --> 01:03:57.740
um that just reminded me of um

01:03:57.740 --> 01:04:01.160
within Neuroscience just how I view

01:04:01.160 --> 01:04:04.460
emotions and I was just going into

01:04:04.460 --> 01:04:08.520
emotional oscillation and how there's

01:04:08.520 --> 01:04:14.579
waves and how the way I look at I do a

01:04:14.579 --> 01:04:16.920
really intricate body scan when I

01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:20.700
meditate and there's a peak right of my

01:04:20.700 --> 01:04:24.299
anxiety and whatever emotion I feel at

01:04:24.299 --> 01:04:27.059
the peak I end up

01:04:27.059 --> 01:04:29.240
foreign

01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:37.260
that was the raw data sound of her

01:04:37.260 --> 01:04:39.740
emotion

01:04:40.040 --> 01:04:42.960
that was really strange

01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:46.859
um yeah that was sorry about that

01:04:46.859 --> 01:04:47.819
um

01:04:47.819 --> 01:04:50.099
I think they cat fountain motor just

01:04:50.099 --> 01:04:53.220
went out apologies for that

01:04:53.220 --> 01:04:53.880
um

01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:58.380
I I'm gonna take a break and that gave

01:04:58.380 --> 01:05:01.140
me a bit of anxiety no but one on a last

01:05:01.140 --> 01:05:03.540
note I was just gonna say Bonnie

01:05:03.540 --> 01:05:06.420
somebody once told me so emotional

01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:09.900
oscillation you probably know what that

01:05:09.900 --> 01:05:11.339
is yeah

01:05:11.339 --> 01:05:14.280
um came to mind but um what I was just

01:05:14.280 --> 01:05:16.200
gonna say is Bonnie

01:05:16.200 --> 01:05:18.960
um somebody once told me

01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:21.839
um that if I don't have enough

01:05:21.839 --> 01:05:25.140
compassion for myself that I should

01:05:25.140 --> 01:05:28.500
borrow some of theirs and I feel like

01:05:28.500 --> 01:05:31.260
your facilitation

01:05:31.260 --> 01:05:33.480
um the way you facilitate kind of

01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:37.559
embodies that so I wanted to just um not

01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:39.900
delve into emotional oscillation but

01:05:39.900 --> 01:05:44.280
delve into how I feel the mystery is

01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:48.660
alive because you kind of bring that to

01:05:48.660 --> 01:05:52.260
the table and you fill the cup and it's

01:05:52.260 --> 01:05:53.900
a really beautiful

01:05:53.900 --> 01:05:56.819
journey of Awakening

01:05:56.819 --> 01:06:00.359
the knowledge becomes naturally embodied

01:06:00.359 --> 01:06:04.140
and I absolutely adore that Within These

01:06:04.140 --> 01:06:05.280
groups

01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:07.980
um Justin on what you said you don't

01:06:07.980 --> 01:06:10.140
need to know

01:06:10.140 --> 01:06:13.020
all you need to know in these groups is

01:06:13.020 --> 01:06:16.160
that you don't know

01:06:16.160 --> 01:06:19.020
that's how I feel and that that's the

01:06:19.020 --> 01:06:23.780
beginning and the readings if you read

01:06:23.819 --> 01:06:28.619
for embodiment it becomes a playful

01:06:28.619 --> 01:06:32.819
um space of awe and Awakening and the

01:06:32.819 --> 01:06:36.839
Mystery unfolds as we meet that's why I

01:06:36.839 --> 01:06:40.319
get excited for every group but but yes

01:06:40.319 --> 01:06:42.660
I'm in a mute because that noise just

01:06:42.660 --> 01:06:44.760
totally threw me off

01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:46.740
yeah so let me just reflect something

01:06:46.740 --> 01:06:49.859
back to you Lena and also talk about you

01:06:49.859 --> 01:06:51.359
in front of everybody at the same time

01:06:51.359 --> 01:06:55.559
it's sort of annoying but you know so

01:06:55.559 --> 01:06:57.900
some people you know Lena has a lot of

01:06:57.900 --> 01:06:59.280
anxiety

01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:01.380
um some people are just have that kind

01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:03.839
of energy signature

01:07:03.839 --> 01:07:07.619
um uh it has its pros and its cons but

01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:10.319
because she's people with a lot of

01:07:10.319 --> 01:07:14.760
anxiety or oh you know just like

01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:18.260
a lot of static energy all the time

01:07:18.260 --> 01:07:21.119
the important thing is not to try to

01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.339
change that but like she said it's going

01:07:23.339 --> 01:07:26.400
to produce emotions and stories and

01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:29.400
these will oscillate and you can watch

01:07:29.400 --> 01:07:31.559
those things happening you see their

01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:33.839
products of it's kind of like if I eat

01:07:33.839 --> 01:07:36.000
beans and I'm farting all the time I can

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:39.359
watch myself fart but I can't stop it

01:07:39.359 --> 01:07:41.339
and I know it's because I'm eating beans

01:07:41.339 --> 01:07:43.619
okay it's the same thing I know I have

01:07:43.619 --> 01:07:46.920
this energy body it's mine to go through

01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:49.859
life with and it produces emotional

01:07:49.859 --> 01:07:52.039
oscillation

01:07:52.039 --> 01:07:54.780
that's that's I'm sorry that's the way

01:07:54.780 --> 01:07:58.380
it is but now I'm not in the emotions I

01:07:58.380 --> 01:08:01.859
just see that my brain is gonna like use

01:08:01.859 --> 01:08:06.359
some of this energy to process stories

01:08:06.359 --> 01:08:10.680
um and that's that's just the way it is

01:08:10.680 --> 01:08:15.059
um and that's that's okay for someone

01:08:15.059 --> 01:08:17.759
like that it's only really a matter of

01:08:17.759 --> 01:08:20.460
the tempo is faster you know for

01:08:20.460 --> 01:08:23.400
everybody else we get social anxiety and

01:08:23.400 --> 01:08:26.640
we produce oscillations and and from and

01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:30.299
for you this attempt the tempo is much

01:08:30.299 --> 01:08:32.100
faster

01:08:32.100 --> 01:08:33.660
um so you could think of it as a

01:08:33.660 --> 01:08:35.339
different kind of song that's playing

01:08:35.339 --> 01:08:38.819
but the basic formula is the same

01:08:38.819 --> 01:08:41.580
same for all people

01:08:41.580 --> 01:08:44.219
um yeah so

01:08:44.219 --> 01:08:45.900
um I don't know if that's helpful or not

01:08:45.900 --> 01:08:49.259
but that would be how we would hold it

01:08:49.259 --> 01:08:50.940
um

01:08:50.940 --> 01:08:53.520
so for other people the arousal comes up

01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:57.060
maybe once every two days and then they

01:08:57.060 --> 01:09:00.480
get into a story and and or are multiple

01:09:00.480 --> 01:09:01.739
stories

01:09:01.739 --> 01:09:04.980
um yeah so this is this is how the thing

01:09:04.980 --> 01:09:06.719
works and it's about like how am I going

01:09:06.719 --> 01:09:09.000
to discharge this energy

01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:11.640
um it goes into it goes into Stories the

01:09:11.640 --> 01:09:14.179
mind is trying to help

01:09:14.179 --> 01:09:18.480
trying to create uh some some

01:09:18.480 --> 01:09:21.719
effect that satisfies the arousal State

01:09:21.719 --> 01:09:23.940
the arousal State might just be

01:09:23.940 --> 01:09:26.880
primarily physiological

01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:29.699
um it's not something the mind is very

01:09:29.699 --> 01:09:33.120
good at working working with it's more

01:09:33.120 --> 01:09:37.279
of on the physiology kind of level

01:09:37.859 --> 01:09:40.380
okay what else we got oh it's two

01:09:40.380 --> 01:09:43.140
o'clock uh is there a group that didn't

01:09:43.140 --> 01:09:45.859
report yet

01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:49.319
are there questions from the top of the

01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:52.160
hours people

01:09:58.739 --> 01:10:01.980
no but this was fantastic conversation

01:10:01.980 --> 01:10:03.420
I'm going to listen to the recording

01:10:03.420 --> 01:10:05.880
again there is so much in here

01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:08.840
thank you everyone

01:10:12.480 --> 01:10:15.840
I just wanted to apologize again for

01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:18.420
that scattered chair and that loud noise

01:10:18.420 --> 01:10:23.219
so sorry about me no no we we got we

01:10:23.219 --> 01:10:25.440
learned something from it which was

01:10:25.440 --> 01:10:28.500
which would not have presented itself so

01:10:28.500 --> 01:10:31.260
I found it I found it a big contribution

01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:36.600
thank you so much the mystery unfolds

01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:40.219
beautiful thank you

01:10:44.699 --> 01:10:46.620
okay my friends

01:10:46.620 --> 01:10:49.980
another great session uh we'll be back

01:10:49.980 --> 01:10:52.320
on what what's you know it's an

01:10:52.320 --> 01:10:54.719
interesting cycle we'll be back at eight

01:10:54.719 --> 01:10:57.480
o'clock on Wednesday next week and four

01:10:57.480 --> 01:10:59.640
o'clock on Friday

01:10:59.640 --> 01:11:02.219
and in the meantime maybe we'll see you

01:11:02.219 --> 01:11:06.360
tomorrow depending upon uh yeah what

01:11:06.360 --> 01:11:09.000
your arousal state is like in the in the

01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:12.900
afternoon and take care love all of you

01:11:12.900 --> 01:11:15.120
thanks for the conversation thanks for

01:11:15.120 --> 01:11:17.480
the company