# Origin of the Self 2023 cohorts transcripts

## Origins of the Self: An Integrated Model

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welcome to this super event

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uh between beyond self-discipline and

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the pop-up school

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uh so a little bit about beyond

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self-discipline for those who are coming

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from the pop-up school this is uh an

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experiment that's being launched out of

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the stoa with daniel kazanjian and

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myself

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a mixture of philosophical fellowships

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and mastermind groups

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where we pursue what is most important

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and speak about what is most important

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at our knife's edge and a central aspect

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of it is

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cultivating what we're calling a diy

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ecology of practices

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and uh benito roy's the pop-up school uh

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which i'm a student of uh i don't know

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if you want to jump in uh b and speak

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briefly about it

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about what the pop-up school is for

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people that are coming from bsd today

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yeah you know beyond self-discipline the

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pop-up school um

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the pop-up school is

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like i think this an experiment in

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um

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in

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teaching training transmitting and

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creating insights in post-formal

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learners

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um

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and we have a different vibe than this

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we

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tend to

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be like a romper room for adults we try

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to

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enjoy going to school with each other it

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really does try to have a little bit of

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that feel uh it's been very successful

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people have had wonderful experiences

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there so

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um

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it's very easy to join it's a sub stack

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subscription

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and if you join for example in november

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as a paid subscriber it's 40 a month but

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you will have access

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to 12 hours of class everything that

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we've done

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you can our is in the archives

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uh so

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um i don't like to necessarily

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advertise how to game the system but um

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yeah that's that's uh that's who we are

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and we're just finishing up a

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three-part series and we'll try to do

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something new in 2022.

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awesome and i highly recommend you

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checking out uh the pop-up school and

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and the sub stack uh a lot of fire posts

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happening there uh and then i imagine

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more uh collaborations between the stoa

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and beyond self-discipline with the

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pop-up school will happen

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[Music]

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in the future um so yeah maybe i can

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check on daniel before we uh start the

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session how how's it going daniel how's

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your bsd journey been so far

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it's been it's been really good um

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and i think uh the thing that's been

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most salient to me in the last couple

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days is how cold my cold showers been

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um because you know here in

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here in toronto we're getting into the

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colder part of the fall which basically

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is

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starting to become winter

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and uh i wanted to kind of share why i'm

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doing this crazy practice and you're

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doing it as well

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i find that starting the day with a

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really cold shower

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uh acclimatizes me to discomfort

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in a way that just stays with me

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throughout the rest of the day so the

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rest of the day just becomes a lot

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easier

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and because the water's been getting

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colder

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um i've felt a lot more resilient with a

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bunch of other things like things at

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work

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and different projects and my workouts

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and stuff and i know you're doing that

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practice as well so i'm curious to see

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how that's been for you peter

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yeah a term i like to use in like

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previous mastermind settings and the one

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that came up yesterday in our gang is

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creating a reference point

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um like when sort of like your

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consciousness is sort of like reducing

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narrowing and then it's like do a

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movement that creates that reference

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point that you can kind of like it

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imprints on you uh and then you can

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return to it and i find cold showers are

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like that um every day for me

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uh when i'm not doing cold showers it's

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like i have this tendency just to take

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these like hour long warm showers and

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it's like my mind is wandering but a

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cold shower like you get to the point

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and then you know like the consciousness

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feels sharp so i really appreciate this

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practice and you sort of um

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inspire me to run with it for this

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iteration of bsd

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so that being said we'll jump right into

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it uh today's session uh the origin of

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the self an integrated model with benito

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roy i think the original title was like

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the best model of the self that yourself

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has ever seen and beneath that does a

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little too much and i and i agreed um

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so

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this was a model that uh benita

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introduced in her one of her pop-up

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school courses classes and it's one of

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the best descriptive models of the self

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that i've personally seen

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and it helped me concretize a lot of the

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various and oftentimes divergent

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conversations happening

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around the self from the various

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different modalities like the buddhistic

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schools psychotherapy schools

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philosophical schools it's very clean

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sharp simple and it's like ah you know

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lock clicked for me um

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and and my intuition was that this model

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would be quite informative to um

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in how we design our our diy ecology of

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practices so i invited benita today

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she's going to present it in a moment

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for about 30 45 minutes uh and then

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we'll have a

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q a or conversations um for the

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remainder time we're here for 90 minutes

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in total

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if you have questions anytime in the

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chat put it in the chat during the q and

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a portion we're calling you uh we'll

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have a little pop-up school style as

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well when vinita is presenting as you

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can see she's gonna share her screen

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right there um feel free to jump off

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mute and just ask her question if you

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need to clarify something

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do use your discernment though um just

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don't just jump in with random thoughts

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um

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so that being said uh i will take in

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benita and buckle up for getting my mind

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blown

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i seem to be muted

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you have to you have to unmute the other

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bonita

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i need to add it beneath that this one

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uh we can hear you though

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you can yeah

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oh okay

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all right

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oh that's right you did the right way

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it's very confusing okay

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um so

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what are we going to do we're work

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we're also i guess this is bsd version

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zero it's kind of experimental so we're

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going to use

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this drafting board that i have here to

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derive to draw out the uh the model and

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first what i want to say what is this

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it's called a model but it's really

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what's called a heuristic

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which is a way to organize a lot of

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material

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in a simple way so when you ask a

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complex question you're already using

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the same grammar you're already using

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the same sign posts so it's a heuristic

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to

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um

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it's a heuristic to

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organize us around better organize us

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around a conversation so one powerful

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heuristic you may be

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used to is the integral i we it's right

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and it's a very simple heuristic and it

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can get elaborated so

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um

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what i'm going to try to do

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is build this out

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just its bones and then as the questions

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come up

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i will try to situate the answers for

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the questions or the topics

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by building out more

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of the um the heuristic

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so this basic model says

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that

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[Music]

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the self

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grows through

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expansion

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so the self is not a linear model but it

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expands its capacity expands

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around three dimensions in three domains

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so you imagine

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the growth is an expansion of capacity

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and the three domains are

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along this line

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this is a developmental what we're used

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to thinking as developmental

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growth

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and it's about

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being coherent

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across larger groups

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so larger and larger groups so my family

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my community

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my culture

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more than one culture

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if that's what this is a growth it's a

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growth of what we might say a wider

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embrace

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and it also has to do with your identity

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project so you grow from

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your little me as a child

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to your identity grows into larger and

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larger spheres of embrace

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and this is

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part of how we talk about

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the development of the self

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and so we'll look at what this

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what the signposts are there

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this is also called growing up

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in

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you know wilbur has this waking up

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growing up cleaning up so these are all

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co consistent with this development this

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trajectory of the

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growth of the self of the growth of the

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self

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in this trajectory

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these are

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the structures

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that pre-constitute the self

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these structures pre-constitute

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the self

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so whereas these develop over your

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lifetime

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these structures pre-constitute the self

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and they're things like

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your body

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you don't

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you're not in the process of becoming

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your body over your lifetime i mean you

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can use that as a metaphor but the body

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comes

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pre-constituted through the prior

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evolutionary history of the human

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your mind the capacity to have a mind

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comes

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through the deep evolutionary processes

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of becoming human

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and then there's other levels here

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and

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as we move up here we can see

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that as we go down here these are called

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deeper

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universals

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in what wilbur calls or in the

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traditions they call them involuted

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they're involuted into the

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self through this long evolutionary

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genealogy

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there's things for example like our

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animal nature

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is in this category

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pro-social

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um our pro-social behaviors comes from

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our animal nature

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our affective streams there's three

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there's six prime seven primary affect

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streams in the neuroeffective anatomy of

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mammals that comes from our animal

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nature

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it comes pre-loaded

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it's the

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prior evolutionary potentials that we

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are born with that then develop across a

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lifespan

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our biotic nature

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we have a gut biome we have an immune

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system that has come from

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the evolution of single cell animals

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this is part of the origin of the self

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is consistent with this deep

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evolutionary trajectory

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so for

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example a psychotechnology at this level

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is shamanism

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it deals with the animal

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animal realm

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ayurvedic medicine deals a lot with the

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biotic realm

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then there's the elements

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all the psychoactive neurochemicals in

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our body

00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.639
come from the elements the primary

00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.200
elements the hemoglobin in our cell

00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.680
comes from a primary element that's made

00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:02.000
in the stars

00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.120
so we have to honor the origins of the

00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.279
self come

00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.320
their goat they go really really deep

00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.560
and young said when you investigate the

00:13:12.560 --> 00:13:14.079
psyche

00:13:14.079 --> 00:13:17.120
at bottom you just get the world you

00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:18.959
just get the universe

00:13:18.959 --> 00:13:21.440
so this is the depth dimension in depth

00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.440
psychology

00:13:26.079 --> 00:13:28.480
and then we'll go on to see beneath this

00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.120
is we could say the energy

00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.800
body just primordial energy

00:13:34.800 --> 00:13:36.160
and then

00:13:36.160 --> 00:13:37.519
the void

00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:39.920
and you can see some of the buddhist

00:13:39.920 --> 00:13:43.120
traditions the meditation traditions

00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:45.440
are working with for example the body at

00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:46.839
the perceptual

00:13:46.839 --> 00:13:48.880
level or

00:13:48.880 --> 00:13:52.399
the body as energy or the body as

00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.720
elements that a lot of taoism works with

00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.399
the body as elements and then the void

00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.040
of course is the meditation emptiness so

00:13:59.040 --> 00:14:01.600
these practices even though it takes

00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.880
higher and higher capacities

00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:07.760
to access them you're accessing

00:14:07.760 --> 00:14:12.160
deeper and prior universals

00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:15.600
what's

00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:17.519
important about this

00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.040
is that

00:14:19.040 --> 00:14:21.120
for example

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.240
people are very different

00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.800
with in their their mind their your mind

00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:28.880
is created by your culture it's related

00:14:28.880 --> 00:14:32.320
to your culture so we all have a mind

00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.040
but the particular type of mind we have

00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:38.880
comes from our particular culture

00:14:39.839 --> 00:14:42.399
animals have minds also because what

00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.560
they can do like crows

00:14:44.560 --> 00:14:47.199
but what the mind is is the predictive

00:14:47.199 --> 00:14:49.040
simulation

00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:50.160
so

00:14:50.160 --> 00:14:53.360
crows for example can look at a complex

00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:54.800
series of

00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:57.040
tasks they have to do to get food and

00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:58.480
you'll watch them they'll go back and

00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.639
forth and back and forth and then when

00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.279
they're let out they have maybe two or

00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:05.360
three of the steps already figured out

00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.680
because they've simulated

00:15:07.680 --> 00:15:09.519
predictively

00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.680
what they had the task right and that's

00:15:11.680 --> 00:15:13.920
what the definition of mind is it comes

00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:14.720
from

00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.399
the higher animals

00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.279
predictive simulation we see in many

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.920
many animals and birds

00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:23.839
but of course the kind of mind we have

00:15:23.839 --> 00:15:25.920
is more sophisticated and the kind of

00:15:25.920 --> 00:15:27.839
mind we have is influenced by our

00:15:27.839 --> 00:15:30.320
culture

00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:40.399
okay so another thing we can see is that

00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.079
this level here

00:15:42.079 --> 00:15:44.160
is

00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:47.440
highly unconscious

00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.120
for most people

00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.600
it's the deep unconscious the deep

00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.839
unconscious of the body

00:15:59.680 --> 00:16:01.360
and in here

00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.399
we have the psyche

00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.000
we'll define that and this area here is

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.600
the subconscious

00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.079
so a lot of what's in your

00:16:12.079 --> 00:16:15.440
psyche you may not be

00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.639
may not be easily accessed but it can be

00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.440
accessed it's subconscious

00:16:27.839 --> 00:16:28.639
and

00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.240
in the middle here we have something

00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.320
very interesting because when we talk

00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.519
about consciousness and subconscious

00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.440
jung came up with this notion of the

00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.120
collective

00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.920
unconscious

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:46.399
but what he means is that

00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.279
it's unconscious to a certain size

00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:50.560
collective

00:16:50.560 --> 00:16:53.680
right so if i have a blind spot that i'm

00:16:53.680 --> 00:16:55.519
unconscious of

00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:58.800
and i relate to my friend

00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:01.199
that's a dyad it's next it's a larger

00:17:01.199 --> 00:17:03.120
collective and they can help me make

00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.959
that conscious to me does that make

00:17:04.959 --> 00:17:07.039
sense

00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:08.000
if

00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.480
i'm with a group of women and we we have

00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.480
a blind spot about

00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.880
gender or sex or men masculine and

00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.079
feminine

00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.400
we can get to the next larger collective

00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:20.640
which is both men and women together can

00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.120
help each other make

00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:27.039
their unconscious conscious to them

00:17:27.199 --> 00:17:29.520
but if that group of men and women are

00:17:29.520 --> 00:17:30.840
all u.s

00:17:30.840 --> 00:17:33.679
americans there's a cult there's

00:17:33.679 --> 00:17:36.000
we're collectively unconscious of other

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.679
cultures right

00:17:37.679 --> 00:17:39.919
so the way the consciousness

00:17:39.919 --> 00:17:42.000
unconscious making the unconscious

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.200
conscious work is you always have to go

00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:49.120
to the next deeper larger universal

00:17:49.120 --> 00:17:51.440
in order to process what's unconscious

00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.400
to that collective

00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.039
does that make sense if it doesn't just

00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.760
say please repeat or something

00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:02.559
so this is this is all stuff you know

00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.960
i'm just laying it out for you

00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:07.440
but what the what's interesting about

00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.039
this model

00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.400
is that at a certain point

00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.840
down in here somewhere

00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.880
the there's something that's unconscious

00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.160
to the human species

00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.160
it's beyond culture

00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.039
it's beyond western culture it's beyond

00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.919
the human species and the only way you

00:18:31.919 --> 00:18:35.520
can make that unconscious conscious

00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:37.919
is to get into

00:18:37.919 --> 00:18:40.320
relationship with the next deeper level

00:18:40.320 --> 00:18:43.280
which is your animal nature

00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:45.640
this is all the whole discussion around

00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.960
indigeneity and embodiment and

00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.080
these deeper kind of shamanic tasks

00:18:52.080 --> 00:18:55.760
are the psychodynamics to get beyond the

00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:58.240
species unconscious because that's how

00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.720
it works

00:19:03.760 --> 00:19:06.160
the model says

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:11.280
that humans cannot solve their

00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:13.440
the knit problem with nature

00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.799
if they by themselves because it's

00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:21.520
collectively unconscious to the species

00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.799
and so you see a lot of interest in this

00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:26.640
right now

00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.200
and we do a lot of this in the pop-up

00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.880
school how to get at this

00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.559
and david's nodding his head because we

00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.039
just came through like some really cool

00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.520
cool work so this is how

00:19:39.520 --> 00:19:42.160
this this whole level works

00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:43.039
um

00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:43.919
and

00:19:43.919 --> 00:19:46.080
we'll can we can build out some more of

00:19:46.080 --> 00:19:48.640
this for example

00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.720
um just trying to find a nice color uh

00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:53.840
yeah

00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:54.960
so

00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.760
the psyche

00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:00.720
has many different aspects to it

00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.200
the psyche is the meaning making the

00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.039
mind is the predictive

00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:07.039
the psyche is the meaning making

00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:10.480
structure in people

00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.000
and

00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.200
what we what's in the psyche

00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.200
if we want to look at different

00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.039
structures

00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:27.600
is we have what are called

00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:31.559
sub personalities

00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.200
transition

00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.640
everything that's higher is more

00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:37.840
conscious

00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:40.400
lower is

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.360
less

00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:42.960
easy to access we have some

00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.640
personalities we have what's called

00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.480
transitional forms

00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.480
so what do these mean

00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.320
some personalities are like

00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.679
um

00:20:55.679 --> 00:20:58.480
some personality is like when i get

00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.080
pulled

00:21:00.080 --> 00:21:00.960
um

00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.600
when i get pulled

00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:05.280
over by a cop

00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:06.080
right

00:21:06.080 --> 00:21:09.039
i know exactly what some personality to

00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.320
put on like i am not bonnie roy when i

00:21:12.320 --> 00:21:15.039
get pulled over by a cop i take out of

00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:16.880
my my

00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:18.640
suitcase

00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.080
a certain mentality a certain posture a

00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:25.520
certain role i put it on i put it on i

00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:28.720
can pick it right up and put it on okay

00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.400
this is how your sub personalities

00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.360
should be they should be optional

00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:35.120
you should always be at choice with your

00:21:35.120 --> 00:21:37.520
sub personalities

00:21:37.520 --> 00:21:39.840
now we could talk forever about how this

00:21:39.840 --> 00:21:42.240
gets up

00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.440
uh through you know early childhood

00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.320
developmental affect regulatory problems

00:21:48.320 --> 00:21:50.000
there's a lot we could talk about here

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.120
but

00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:54.880
we need to build out the whole model

00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.799
what's deeper than this are called

00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.840
primary schema

00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:08.080
primary schema

00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:09.440
is

00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:12.000
very very deep in the subconscious it's

00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.000
almost unconscious

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.039
and what happens is when you're a child

00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.000
you have to organize reality and you

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.559
don't yet have a sophisticated mind in

00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:23.760
fact

00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:24.960
a

00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:27.440
three-year-old monkey

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:28.880
you know can

00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.360
an 18 year old 18 month monkey can

00:22:31.360 --> 00:22:33.679
outperform a three-year-old child on

00:22:33.679 --> 00:22:36.559
predictive processing tasks our mind is

00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:37.760
slow to come

00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:40.720
we have a long period where we have to

00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.840
organize reality through psychic

00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:46.559
structures we don't have access to

00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.640
predictive processing

00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.799
and what we and those the way we

00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:53.280
organize reality at that very early

00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:57.919
stage become our primary schema

00:22:57.919 --> 00:23:00.159
so we organize

00:23:00.159 --> 00:23:02.400
the sense of a woman

00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:05.280
i'm gonna be just stereotypically

00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:06.720
uh

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.840
you know

00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:11.440
1950s family you organize the sense of a

00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.480
woman in the breast with the concept

00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.120
mother and then that builds the concept

00:23:17.120 --> 00:23:20.320
the gender feminine and then you

00:23:20.320 --> 00:23:22.960
organize a different theme with your

00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.840
other caregiver and these masculine

00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:27.200
feminine

00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.760
archetypes become primary schema that

00:23:29.760 --> 00:23:32.240
you build on later in life

00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.640
the problem with primary schema is if

00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.720
you're not overcome with them is you're

00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.159
limited to a very very

00:23:40.159 --> 00:23:41.440
very

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.799
poor organization of reality

00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.120
to see reality as masculine and feminine

00:23:47.120 --> 00:23:48.720
comes from

00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:50.799
the only way you could organize it when

00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.559
you were a toddler

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.000
and to hang on to that is extremely

00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.480
limited

00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.600
because the the capacity to organize

00:24:01.600 --> 00:24:04.000
reality at that stage was extremely

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.720
impoverished

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.360
this is

00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:12.720
a whole spiel about

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:13.919
you know

00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:15.600
uh

00:24:15.600 --> 00:24:17.279
when people think they've married their

00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:20.000
father no the only the thing that's the

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:21.840
same about your father and your husband

00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:23.120
is that they're men

00:24:23.120 --> 00:24:27.279
and you've organized this whole story

00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.240
around what that means but you organized

00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.960
it with the child's very limited

00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.360
capacity to you couldn't understand

00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:37.039
anything about what was going on because

00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.840
you don't have predictive processing as

00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:43.279
a child not until you're three years old

00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:47.200
and then it's just coming online

00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.240
so this is a kind of model that needs to

00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:51.360
inform

00:24:51.360 --> 00:24:54.320
a lot of psychotherapy that are like

00:24:54.320 --> 00:24:56.640
don't know what they're talking about

00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.760
so for example primary schemas

00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:01.520
turn into

00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:04.880
what are called internal family systems

00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.720
and people run around thinking they have

00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.279
like little policemen and little

00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:11.919
managers and little children and mothers

00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:14.880
and fathers inside their psyche this is

00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.400
this is kind of ridiculous

00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.200
okay but that's the reality now up in

00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.000
here is an interesting

00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.400
place

00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:34.720
i just going to use the term that

00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:38.080
michael washburn used and this is called

00:25:38.080 --> 00:25:39.440
the

00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:40.960
um

00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:45.200
uh uh the core self

00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:51.200
which is the evolutionary potential

00:25:53.840 --> 00:25:56.480
of the self and what do i mean by that

00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.919
the self has a

00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:02.720
if you want to understand this model the

00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:05.039
self is like

00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:08.240
there's all this universal energy

00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.799
right and has these three domains let's

00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:11.679
say

00:26:11.679 --> 00:26:16.000
and then the self is born and then it's

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:19.679
trying to expand in these three domains

00:26:19.679 --> 00:26:20.480
but

00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:22.240
what happens is something very

00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:23.760
interesting so

00:26:23.760 --> 00:26:25.840
for example nature

00:26:25.840 --> 00:26:28.080
is very experimental

00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:30.960
it creates non-binary bodies

00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.640
it creates you know uh a whole spectrum

00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.320
of gender and sexual preferences right

00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:42.320
and so those that diversity is always

00:26:42.320 --> 00:26:44.080
trying to well up

00:26:44.080 --> 00:26:46.240
and the self is latent

00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:49.760
that there's so much in what comes up

00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:52.480
that is latent potential but at the

00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:54.320
level of culture for example and then

00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:57.120
say uh oh no

00:26:57.120 --> 00:26:59.679
that's not going to make it into

00:26:59.679 --> 00:27:01.520
reality

00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:05.679
right and so the lay itself is always

00:27:05.679 --> 00:27:08.880
more full of potential than the culture

00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:10.880
wants it to

00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.919
to manifest

00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:17.679
because the culture is a structure

00:27:17.679 --> 00:27:20.240
that is not evolving like the latent

00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.159
self and so you there's great when i do

00:27:22.159 --> 00:27:24.399
this in my master's course we have great

00:27:24.399 --> 00:27:28.000
videos of lana wachowski for example

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.159
navigating

00:27:30.159 --> 00:27:33.279
the and and this puts the child in a

00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.120
pickle

00:27:35.120 --> 00:27:38.240
because the first time this energy comes

00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:39.120
up

00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:40.000
and

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.080
even if your parent is the best parent

00:27:42.080 --> 00:27:44.480
in the world and they greet it with less

00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:46.559
than enthusiasm

00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.720
you're in a pickle

00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.399
do i become the good boy or do i

00:27:52.399 --> 00:27:55.679
honor this authentic thing that's coming

00:27:55.679 --> 00:27:57.840
up in me

00:27:57.840 --> 00:28:00.320
this is the great pickle of human

00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:02.799
existence

00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.760
because if i don't honor this then

00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:07.760
i'm inauthentic

00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:09.919
and this is something i will deal with

00:28:09.919 --> 00:28:12.159
for my whole life i mean this is the

00:28:12.159 --> 00:28:14.640
existential precarity of being a human

00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.880
this happens to everyone

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:19.520
and so the process of how do i honor

00:28:19.520 --> 00:28:20.559
that

00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:23.440
and this is what we call primary shame

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.080
primary shaming

00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:27.120
is

00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:28.320
this

00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:32.799
this not me this i mean parents have to

00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:35.039
have to train their children they have

00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:36.960
to socialize their children into a

00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:38.240
culture

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:39.520
and so

00:28:39.520 --> 00:28:42.480
the this dance the more we understand

00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.880
how this works and i'll give you a very

00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:46.480
simple example

00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.559
let's say a child there's authentic

00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:50.320
energy is coming up in them and they go

00:28:50.320 --> 00:28:52.720
like this and they break a vase

00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.200
and let's say it's a really important

00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.200
base to you

00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.640
what do you do

00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.480
you're not going to do nothing because

00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.159
you need to socialize your child but

00:29:02.159 --> 00:29:04.080
there's a difference between

00:29:04.080 --> 00:29:06.640
why did you do that

00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.760
and i point to the child i point inside

00:29:09.760 --> 00:29:11.279
their inside

00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:13.679
as if i'm talking to a little

00:29:13.679 --> 00:29:17.440
intentional homunculus inside the child

00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.480
and i say why did you do that

00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.960
and we all know what cases of children

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.279
look like when you say that early on

00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.760
they don't know why

00:29:27.760 --> 00:29:29.360
they have no idea what you're talking

00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:31.520
about but the more you do that the more

00:29:31.520 --> 00:29:33.919
you put inside that child

00:29:33.919 --> 00:29:36.480
a little bad boy good girl

00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:39.440
homunculus inside of them

00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.919
this is how the psychic structures the

00:29:41.919 --> 00:29:45.760
psychic dilemmas get put in there

00:29:45.760 --> 00:29:48.480
what you could do instead is say wow

00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:50.320
what happened

00:29:50.320 --> 00:29:52.320
so instead of having an egocentric

00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:55.200
inquiry you have an allocentric inquiry

00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:56.640
and that

00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.520
develops the mind instead of polluting

00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:02.159
the psyche with structures that have to

00:30:02.159 --> 00:30:05.760
be overcome once they're 40 years old

00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:09.039
or 50 years old or never overcome so

00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:11.279
that's a lot of what happens

00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:13.360
in here

00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:16.000
we could say then that

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:16.960
the

00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.720
work here

00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.279
is to integrate

00:30:23.760 --> 00:30:27.840
to integrate these lower structures

00:30:28.159 --> 00:30:31.760
the work here is to liberate the mind

00:30:31.760 --> 00:30:34.240
from the limiting

00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:36.320
conditioning of your culture and the

00:30:36.320 --> 00:30:40.000
work here is to individuate

00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:42.960
the psyche so these are all words you

00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:47.120
understand but this is where they go

00:30:47.120 --> 00:30:49.279
now here's something interesting that

00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.960
goes across this way this is like

00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.679
the identity project and i have a whole

00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:58.399
cool thing to build this out but we only

00:30:58.399 --> 00:31:00.640
have so much time

00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.200
so the child is born first i just use

00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:06.000
pronouns with this sense of mind

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.799
my body my breast

00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:10.480
my blankie

00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:11.519
my

00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.159
the mother is mine this is a very deep

00:31:14.159 --> 00:31:17.039
structure even animals have it the dogs

00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:18.880
have my bone

00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.000
uh the horses have my children

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.480
and it's associated with what are called

00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:27.440
egocentric perceptual processing right

00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:30.799
here right there that's mine and it gets

00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:34.159
exacted into the human identity as mine

00:31:34.159 --> 00:31:37.360
this is the first way the child relates

00:31:37.360 --> 00:31:39.120
to their identity it's hardly an

00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:40.399
identity

00:31:40.399 --> 00:31:42.559
at the mind stage

00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:44.960
the way this is the show up how do you

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:46.559
show up

00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.440
at the mind stage you just show up as

00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:51.840
your behaviors it's just impulse

00:31:51.840 --> 00:31:53.760
and behavior

00:31:53.760 --> 00:31:55.120
that's all

00:31:55.120 --> 00:31:57.039
that's how you show up

00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.320
at the next level there's a me

00:32:00.320 --> 00:32:03.440
the me is

00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.440
the mind and the me

00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:07.600
are

00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:10.320
developed through early childhood

00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:14.960
experiences and usually like the family

00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:17.039
starts in the family you might say it's

00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.279
like a personality

00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.919
and the interesting thing about the me

00:32:21.919 --> 00:32:23.919
and this is george herbert mead's work

00:32:23.919 --> 00:32:26.240
also william james said the same thing

00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:29.679
is the me you identify with

00:32:29.679 --> 00:32:31.200
at certain point in your life you

00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.440
realize that you're you can make your

00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:35.760
mother happy or smile wherever by

00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:38.320
something that appears in front of the

00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:39.440
other

00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:42.320
i become i understand that i am an image

00:32:42.320 --> 00:32:45.200
or an object to the other and that i can

00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.919
make changes to the other by changing

00:32:47.919 --> 00:32:49.440
the me

00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.720
so i'm an object in the appearance for

00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.000
the other

00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.679
this starts to happen around two years

00:32:55.679 --> 00:32:57.360
old and this is where you get the

00:32:57.360 --> 00:33:00.240
terrible twos because to test this

00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.960
theory the child will do something like

00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:05.360
go and reach for the ice cream that

00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:08.080
they're not gonna want and then yeah she

00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:11.440
got mad i can do something with my body

00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.200
i can appear

00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.039
in a certain way

00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.519
to affect the other

00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:20.559
and this is the whole me stage

00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.440
right that but it's it's an interesting

00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.919
phase because i say you lead with your

00:33:25.919 --> 00:33:28.080
me now the problem

00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:30.399
and so the pro and

00:33:30.399 --> 00:33:33.519
for children it's tied to a role

00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:37.200
so they can play the role of bad boy

00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.039
or they can they start to lie they start

00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:40.720
to be deceptive

00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:42.559
they can take the role they play a lot

00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.240
of doctor because they understand a

00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.200
doctor appears in uniform in a certain

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:50.399
way so this is the identity structure at

00:33:50.399 --> 00:33:52.640
this stage

00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:53.679
um

00:33:53.679 --> 00:33:54.640
and

00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:55.600
and

00:33:55.600 --> 00:33:57.200
i can't get into the whole thing because

00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:59.279
i want to do this out but what's really

00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.720
sad is almost i would say 80 to 90

00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:05.279
percent of people in the us never get

00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.919
out of the meat almost everybody leads

00:34:07.919 --> 00:34:09.839
with their me

00:34:09.839 --> 00:34:12.560
this is really sad this is not a very

00:34:12.560 --> 00:34:14.800
sophisticated structure

00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.560
the me is just performing roles for

00:34:18.560 --> 00:34:19.599
for

00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.879
feedback from the other

00:34:22.879 --> 00:34:25.679
almost everything you see online almost

00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.520
everything in popular culture almost

00:34:27.520 --> 00:34:29.440
everything that happens at school and

00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.760
everything that happens in the workplace

00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.480
is a me role structure

00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.520
it's really sad in the it's this is not

00:34:37.520 --> 00:34:39.919
the case in other cultures

00:34:39.919 --> 00:34:41.760
but in western culture

00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.200
just kids are glutamated

00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:46.159
okay

00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:48.960
then if you're lucky you get to the eye

00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:50.240
and the eye

00:34:50.240 --> 00:34:54.240
has a sense of authentic agency

00:34:54.240 --> 00:34:55.919
the eye has a

00:34:55.919 --> 00:34:58.240
load stone

00:34:58.240 --> 00:35:00.079
it

00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.880
it wants to perform

00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:04.320
its its

00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.960
ness its eyeness it has a sense of

00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:08.640
agency

00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:11.760
it's not always wondering how it appears

00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:16.680
it's driven by a sense of eyeness

00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:20.160
a lot of people in our culture that have

00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:22.320
to move to ines

00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.880
have to hang out as narcissists for a

00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:26.800
while

00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:30.000
because it takes a lot of narcissistic

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.960
energy to pull away from the me culture

00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.000
and you see this you see this toggle

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.599
between young people

00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.240
it's very difficult right now and they

00:35:42.240 --> 00:35:45.280
get called narcissists so you get called

00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:48.240
you get called out because this is so

00:35:48.240 --> 00:35:53.359
unusual this move in our culture today

00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:58.480
then we get to the we

00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.480
most like most

00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.560
kids like if you're on a team

00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:05.280
that's all team roles those are still

00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.280
me's the wiis are is authentic

00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.800
collaboration it's a collaboration it's

00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:13.040
a unit of agency

00:36:13.040 --> 00:36:15.760
from a lot of collaborating eyes you

00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:17.920
don't have true wheeze without

00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:21.119
individuated eyes

00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:24.400
and this is the holy grail of

00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:26.160
organizational science right now how do

00:36:26.160 --> 00:36:28.720
we get independent

00:36:28.720 --> 00:36:31.440
self-thinking agentic eyes

00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.400
to collaborate into a true we

00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:36.000
and this reminds me of jonathan

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:37.200
ralston's

00:36:37.200 --> 00:36:38.160
uh

00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:41.280
uh work about we don't have a we in

00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:43.200
climate change we need to change well

00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:47.359
who is the we there is the the we is

00:36:47.359 --> 00:36:48.880
an agent

00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:52.760
a collective agency

00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.680
so then we get to

00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:02.560
the us and the us is heavily related to

00:37:02.560 --> 00:37:04.400
culture

00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.079
whereas the we is a

00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.359
an agent a central collective agent the

00:37:09.359 --> 00:37:13.040
us is more of a category

00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.560
categorical identity because

00:37:16.560 --> 00:37:18.880
the scale is pretty high

00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:20.960
so we i don't

00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:23.200
you know i can say us

00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:24.480
women

00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:26.800
do this or us

00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.640
connect people in connecticut do this

00:37:28.640 --> 00:37:31.040
but we're not all collaborating with us

00:37:31.040 --> 00:37:33.440
it's an emergent property of a category

00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.599
of people

00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:38.960
so how do you get so that you can

00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:40.560
embrace

00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:43.200
this larger sphere people you don't know

00:37:43.200 --> 00:37:46.320
you don't actually collaborate to accept

00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:47.599
that

00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.040
you are embedded in these systems

00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:53.520
western society how do you accept that

00:37:53.520 --> 00:37:55.599
you're embedded into western society and

00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:57.839
you're complicit with it

00:37:57.839 --> 00:38:00.560
and you can embrace that

00:38:00.560 --> 00:38:02.240
so that requires

00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:05.119
deep psychological processing of what is

00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:06.400
culture

00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.680
how did our culture get like this

00:38:09.680 --> 00:38:13.040
so the more you can clean up in here the

00:38:13.040 --> 00:38:14.880
more you can

00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:17.680
awaken to these lower structures the

00:38:17.680 --> 00:38:20.160
easier it is for you to authentically

00:38:20.160 --> 00:38:23.440
embrace the next larger structure

00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:25.440
that's how it works you have to do due

00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:26.720
diligence

00:38:26.720 --> 00:38:27.920
in the deep

00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:31.200
unit deeper universals to authentically

00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:35.440
embrace the larger collective

00:38:37.520 --> 00:38:40.800
now here's where it gets really

00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.280
creepy

00:38:43.359 --> 00:38:46.079
so then you get to you might say all of

00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:46.880
us

00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:47.839
right

00:38:47.839 --> 00:38:51.839
so global citizenship all of us and what

00:38:51.839 --> 00:38:54.960
we mean is all of us humans so we're

00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:58.079
right here whoever has a human body

00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:01.760
is now all of us

00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.920
and in most psycho-spiritual

00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.359
technologies

00:39:05.359 --> 00:39:08.079
it's considered then that all the

00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.280
evolution spiritual evolution from there

00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:14.240
is on the human branch of the tree and

00:39:14.240 --> 00:39:16.880
you can get to something called

00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:19.680
consciousness

00:39:19.839 --> 00:39:21.680
as energy

00:39:21.680 --> 00:39:23.920
right

00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.920
so here's consciousness is energy

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:32.640
there's this huge huge shadow

00:39:32.640 --> 00:39:34.240
somehow

00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:37.839
you skip in this spiritual position you

00:39:37.839 --> 00:39:41.119
skip all of us

00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:43.839
animals

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:52.960
and you skip all biotic realm

00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.960
it's this huge shadow and it's to me

00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.040
it's the reason why

00:40:01.040 --> 00:40:02.640
we just destroy

00:40:02.640 --> 00:40:04.400
the living earth

00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.359
we can't pretend oh all of us animals

00:40:07.359 --> 00:40:09.520
the earth is beautiful because we don't

00:40:09.520 --> 00:40:13.839
do our due diligence in this area

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.720
just like to get from the me to the eye

00:40:16.720 --> 00:40:19.280
you have to understand

00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:21.440
your due diligence in your primary

00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.079
family system and what happened early on

00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:26.240
to get to the eye

00:40:26.240 --> 00:40:28.480
to get to the eye you have to understand

00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.280
your culture you have to you have to

00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:33.599
work in this direction to authentically

00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:35.520
embrace in this direction otherwise it's

00:40:35.520 --> 00:40:36.960
just and then eventually you

00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.960
know you can get to something called the

00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:40.400
planetary

00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.960
and the cosmological

00:40:45.520 --> 00:40:48.520
authentically

00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:55.440
there's a lot that happens right in this

00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.440
area why it's very hard for us as modern

00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:01.440
people to move

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:04.960
to integrate these deeper levels but i'm

00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:08.000
just going to wrap it up by saying

00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.400
what we can say then

00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:11.280
is

00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:12.400
that

00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:14.319
the

00:41:14.319 --> 00:41:15.599
ideal

00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:17.119
in this direction

00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:19.359
is to have

00:41:19.359 --> 00:41:22.000
a alignment

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.880
that all the forces that pre-constitute

00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:27.680
me are aligned so my mind is not working

00:41:27.680 --> 00:41:30.480
against my body my body is not working

00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.960
against my psyche my psyche is not

00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.280
working against my body which happens

00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.280
all the time your psyche is making you

00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:38.560
sick

00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:40.240
so what we want to have is deep

00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:43.200
alignment in this direction

00:41:43.200 --> 00:41:44.319
we

00:41:44.319 --> 00:41:47.359
work toward larger coherence i said this

00:41:47.359 --> 00:41:50.480
already in this direction so can i be

00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:52.560
coherent with a person in another

00:41:52.560 --> 00:41:54.720
culture can i be coherent with a trump

00:41:54.720 --> 00:41:57.599
supporter can i be coherent

00:41:57.599 --> 00:41:59.839
with the animals

00:41:59.839 --> 00:42:02.160
can i be coherent

00:42:02.160 --> 00:42:04.319
with the biome

00:42:04.319 --> 00:42:06.880
and in this direction is a notion of

00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:09.760
congruence

00:42:11.200 --> 00:42:15.280
is the way i show up congruent

00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.560
with what i'm trying to go here and and

00:42:18.560 --> 00:42:19.839
align to

00:42:19.839 --> 00:42:21.119
or do i

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:23.839
just hide

00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.440
and let's see two more minutes

00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.319
one this notion of hiding is related to

00:42:30.319 --> 00:42:32.480
one other structure

00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:34.400
which is called

00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:35.760
right here

00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.480
it it suppresses the latent self and

00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:43.480
that's called the gatekeeper cell

00:42:46.319 --> 00:42:47.760
aka

00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:49.440
the ego

00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.640
the ego's always saying ah you know do i

00:42:52.640 --> 00:42:53.680
wanna

00:42:53.680 --> 00:42:55.920
do you wanna do that like i don't know

00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:57.440
you put some things into the good

00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:59.599
category and some things into the bad

00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.960
category and creates all these splits

00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:06.160
so what is a split a split is like

00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:07.440
when we say

00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:09.280
okay

00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.040
we get we get

00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:12.480
you'll hear this all the time not so

00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:14.079
much now and once this group but you

00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.240
used to always say well our animal

00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:18.400
nature you know is like

00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:22.160
is like savagery and and it's animal

00:43:22.160 --> 00:43:23.920
nature to

00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:25.040
to

00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:28.079
um be savages and to

00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.480
to fight and stuff like that

00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:32.640
but in reality

00:43:32.640 --> 00:43:35.680
all fidelity all maternal care all

00:43:35.680 --> 00:43:40.240
fidelity uh brotherhood um

00:43:40.240 --> 00:43:43.200
companionship loyalty all of these come

00:43:43.200 --> 00:43:45.599
from our animal nature and what we do is

00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:47.040
we split

00:43:47.040 --> 00:43:49.760
we say okay here's animal nature

00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.000
and we this is the bad

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.800
and we say that's not me and then we say

00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:56.800
this is good and we say that's not

00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:58.079
animal

00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.880
and this whole layer in here

00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:03.440
is filled with splits

00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:05.839
with the inability to

00:44:05.839 --> 00:44:09.760
align and be what is the sum total of

00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.720
the human condition

00:44:13.040 --> 00:44:14.640
and those splits up here are called

00:44:14.640 --> 00:44:16.079
shadow

00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:19.119
okay i'm done

00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:20.480
good time

00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:22.720
there's a lot more like you there's so

00:44:22.720 --> 00:44:24.720
much going in here like how the core

00:44:24.720 --> 00:44:28.240
cell the core cells project is to

00:44:28.240 --> 00:44:30.640
organize reality along

00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:33.280
self other and world there's really good

00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.520
research is how that happens very early

00:44:35.520 --> 00:44:37.200
on and of course the core self is

00:44:37.200 --> 00:44:38.800
psychedelic

00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:41.200
and when you reach puberty you're not

00:44:41.200 --> 00:44:43.280
and you have your first orgasm with

00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.359
someone you're not sure who is the self

00:44:45.359 --> 00:44:47.599
and who is the other anymore and then

00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:50.160
this goes on forever just a very

00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:53.839
interesting uh project in here but

00:44:53.839 --> 00:44:56.400
in every area there's like

00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.839
there's like you can build out a lot of

00:44:59.839 --> 00:45:02.480
uh stuff usually i do this over 30 hours

00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:04.640
in an intensive so

00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:06.960
that's what you get for 15 minutes i'm

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.839
sorry i did my best

00:45:09.839 --> 00:45:11.040
i think first of all everyone just gave

00:45:11.040 --> 00:45:13.040
a round of applause that was

00:45:13.040 --> 00:45:15.359
brilliant um

00:45:15.359 --> 00:45:17.119
i think i should have kept the original

00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:18.560
title the best model itself that

00:45:18.560 --> 00:45:19.920
ourselves have ever seen because that

00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.520
was just um

00:45:21.520 --> 00:45:23.520
brilliant benita i just want to express

00:45:23.520 --> 00:45:25.440
like how grateful i am for having you in

00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:26.480
my life

00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:28.720
to be exposed to stuff like this

00:45:28.720 --> 00:45:29.839
um

00:45:29.839 --> 00:45:30.560
so

00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:32.560
we'll pivot to the q a portion now i

00:45:32.560 --> 00:45:34.240
have some burning questions about three

00:45:34.240 --> 00:45:35.280
um

00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:36.960
and i'll preface them by saying you want

00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:38.960
to shut this off or you what do you want

00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:40.079
how do you want to do this doesn't

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.000
matter to me and just yeah i sense you

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:43.760
might probably want to write on it some

00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:44.720
of the questions

00:45:44.720 --> 00:45:46.480
about that um

00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:48.079
so to preface the questions like this is

00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:50.319
a descriptive model and at bsd we're

00:45:50.319 --> 00:45:52.000
looking for like proscriptive like

00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.680
guiding principles so finding that

00:45:53.680 --> 00:45:55.119
bridge i think this the purpose of the

00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:57.920
session uh feeling into it is finding uh

00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:58.880
not only being introduced to this

00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:00.319
brilliant model but finding the bridge

00:46:00.319 --> 00:46:01.280
between the descriptive and the

00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.599
prescriptive

00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.599
and something i wanted to ask first and

00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:07.520
i'll have a follow-up question on this

00:46:07.520 --> 00:46:09.119
is that when i emailed you originally

00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:10.640
when i saw this model i asked you where

00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:12.319
is the the daemon or the diamond fit

00:46:12.319 --> 00:46:13.920
into this and you said it wobbles

00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.079
between all these different cells so

00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:20.240
that's that's just that's this drawing

00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.920
right the universal energy

00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:25.119
is

00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:28.240
oh you know that's what i didn't say so

00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:30.319
this this what happens is so the

00:46:30.319 --> 00:46:32.720
universal energy is

00:46:32.720 --> 00:46:34.640
creating this pickle

00:46:34.640 --> 00:46:35.920
because

00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:38.480
you're growing up and that no one in the

00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:42.400
world has ever seen a peter lindbergh

00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:45.920
and it's it's challenging you

00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.800
to follow your own path

00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:51.119
and it's confusing because we also have

00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:54.000
to educate children into our own culture

00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:57.760
where we learn to adopt

00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.319
the roles that the culture

00:47:00.319 --> 00:47:01.520
gives us

00:47:01.520 --> 00:47:03.680
but there are no models for you to

00:47:03.680 --> 00:47:06.160
follow your damon doesn't there's no

00:47:06.160 --> 00:47:09.200
model you can't find

00:47:09.200 --> 00:47:11.119
you can find some signposts but you

00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:15.359
can't find yourself out there

00:47:16.319 --> 00:47:18.800
does that make sense

00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:21.440
it's this latency this this latent

00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:23.280
potential

00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:25.680
that is

00:47:25.680 --> 00:47:27.280
is

00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.520
does not align with anything that you'll

00:47:29.520 --> 00:47:32.559
see in other people or and so it puts

00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:35.359
it's it's hard to

00:47:35.359 --> 00:47:37.200
understand what it's saying

00:47:37.200 --> 00:47:39.520
because nobody speaks its language you

00:47:39.520 --> 00:47:42.079
haven't heard it before it's hard to

00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:44.960
say oh i'm just gonna be that right so

00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:47.599
when you follow that versus just get a

00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:50.000
role in society a pre-packaged role a

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:52.720
lot of people do that um that's

00:47:52.720 --> 00:47:54.240
different than the damon or the

00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:58.640
thumbnails it has this tension because

00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.839
there's no other copy of it you can't

00:48:01.839 --> 00:48:02.800
learn

00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:04.800
how to follow it the way you can learn

00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:07.040
everything else

00:48:07.040 --> 00:48:08.480
and there's a risk

00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.200
you know these things are risky

00:48:11.200 --> 00:48:13.680
um but it's just it's just

00:48:13.680 --> 00:48:17.200
um yeah in this model it's it's it's

00:48:17.200 --> 00:48:18.319
that

00:48:18.319 --> 00:48:21.200
um

00:48:21.200 --> 00:48:22.800
and so a follow-up question i have to

00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.440
that and um i might stumble uh my way

00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.280
expressing this but so one of the

00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:29.680
challenges at uh bsd and you've read

00:48:29.680 --> 00:48:31.280
some of the material you know what it's

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:34.720
about um is the question how to source

00:48:34.720 --> 00:48:36.160
our ecology of practice or like an

00:48:36.160 --> 00:48:37.359
individual ecology of practice

00:48:37.359 --> 00:48:38.559
consciously

00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:40.559
and my working kind of answer and please

00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:42.720
stress test this is like the best

00:48:42.720 --> 00:48:44.240
ecology of practice is the one that gets

00:48:44.240 --> 00:48:46.720
us to the next ecology of practice and a

00:48:46.720 --> 00:48:48.319
part like a part of determining what

00:48:48.319 --> 00:48:51.040
that practice uh is is to kind of tap

00:48:51.040 --> 00:48:53.200
into that demonic energy

00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:55.280
um and the way i see it is like the

00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:58.000
ecology like temporarily converges like

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.000
depending where the person is at

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:01.760
um and then certain practices perhaps

00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.280
are not needed anymore so they fall away

00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:05.520
because certain capacities are built uh

00:49:05.520 --> 00:49:06.559
for example they did like you know

00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:07.839
internal family systems and they got a

00:49:07.839 --> 00:49:08.960
little bit more individuated or

00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:09.839
something

00:49:09.839 --> 00:49:11.680
and then a new ecology of practices

00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:13.760
converge like pracs and shamanic or

00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:15.599
buddhistic ones

00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.920
and like the the challenge i have with

00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.400
the monastic setting is that uh you know

00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:21.760
everyone's on like a different place

00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:23.359
developmentally like psychologically

00:49:23.359 --> 00:49:25.040
they have different skill sets and it's

00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:26.880
almost like a procrustean bed approach

00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:27.839
like you're cutting off their arms and

00:49:27.839 --> 00:49:29.280
legs trying to forcefit them into a

00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:30.480
certain model

00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:33.359
and my sense is that like more wildness

00:49:33.359 --> 00:49:36.000
in like an open way needs to be done so

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.079
like an ecology like maybe like a deep

00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:39.839
code of the ecology of practices could

00:49:39.839 --> 00:49:41.599
be found or like what john vikki calls

00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:43.520
the meta ecology of practices

00:49:43.520 --> 00:49:45.119
um so yeah i'll pause there so you can

00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:48.319
see how that works yeah i mean

00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:50.880
it is a descriptive i wanted let me just

00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:52.240
say one thing before i forget and then i

00:49:52.240 --> 00:49:54.160
answer your question so because i know

00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:57.359
that this this resonated with you

00:49:57.359 --> 00:49:59.760
um these are other words this is your

00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:01.520
unique self you want to become your new

00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:03.599
unique self

00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:07.440
if you think of gaffney's work it it

00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.480
it's in this kind of idea

00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.920
down here um this is called um

00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.800
your true self or your true nature and

00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.760
you see why it's more realistic because

00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.480
it points to nature

00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:25.839
so the word your true nature

00:50:25.839 --> 00:50:28.880
it's the same word as nature

00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:30.720
right makes sense

00:50:30.720 --> 00:50:32.240
whereas the buddhists will say your true

00:50:32.240 --> 00:50:33.920
nature and they're pointing to some

00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:36.319
mumbo jumbo whatever storehouse

00:50:36.319 --> 00:50:38.160
consciousness or something

00:50:38.160 --> 00:50:40.800
that's not this is not the way the model

00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:41.920
works

00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.480
and this here is your is what you would

00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:47.839
call your whole self

00:50:47.839 --> 00:50:51.359
the sum total of the human condition

00:50:51.359 --> 00:50:52.480
is

00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.119
what we're trying to embrace here

00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:58.240
so you no longer identify you see in the

00:50:58.240 --> 00:51:00.880
human system in the planetary system you

00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:04.160
see yourself that's that's the holistic

00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:06.800
or unitary consciousness

00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:09.119
and the other way to think about this is

00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:10.240
this is

00:51:10.240 --> 00:51:13.280
uh this is how you're embodied

00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:14.800
in this

00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:17.040
so these are embodied practices

00:51:17.040 --> 00:51:21.880
these are the systems you're embedded in

00:51:22.319 --> 00:51:25.200
and this is the person you enact

00:51:25.200 --> 00:51:27.920
you become this person by enacting it

00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:28.720
so

00:51:28.720 --> 00:51:29.599
um

00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:31.359
so

00:51:31.359 --> 00:51:33.680
when you're talking about fumos or the

00:51:33.680 --> 00:51:36.640
will right just do it

00:51:36.640 --> 00:51:38.400
in my opinion

00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.359
this is because we just did this in the

00:51:41.359 --> 00:51:43.599
pop-up school we talked about the will

00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:46.000
and i say the psyche is the place the

00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:48.720
will goes to die

00:51:48.720 --> 00:51:51.440
and we process this the will is from

00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:54.800
your animal nature it's a wild nobody

00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:56.880
talks about the will anymore it's gone

00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.720
out of fashion since nietzsche and

00:51:58.720 --> 00:52:01.599
fascism and hitler and stuff

00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:03.040
but the will

00:52:03.040 --> 00:52:04.559
is is

00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:08.000
in this realm it's in body work it's in

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:09.599
animal nature

00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:12.000
it's in understanding

00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:13.359
the pickle

00:52:13.359 --> 00:52:16.480
see the pickle here

00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:19.520
is that

00:52:19.520 --> 00:52:21.520
culture

00:52:21.520 --> 00:52:22.480
um

00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:26.319
culture is where you start to have norms

00:52:26.319 --> 00:52:29.119
and taboos

00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:33.520
and in the animal realm

00:52:33.520 --> 00:52:35.920
there's no good and evil

00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:37.920
there are only what heart

00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.880
archon called incommensurable

00:52:43.359 --> 00:52:45.280
goods

00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:47.520
so it's good for the rabbit to get away

00:52:47.520 --> 00:52:49.680
from the fox so she can go home and feed

00:52:49.680 --> 00:52:51.920
her babies but it's good for the fox to

00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:53.680
catch the rabbit so she can go home and

00:52:53.680 --> 00:52:55.839
feed her babies

00:52:55.839 --> 00:52:58.800
in early tribal societies you start to

00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:00.559
see

00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:02.960
the you can see the evolution from here

00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:06.400
to here i'm getting to your answer

00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:08.720
and that is the first early tribal

00:53:08.720 --> 00:53:10.400
societies

00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:12.960
they had rules the first rules was who

00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.839
could eat who

00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.640
so you see for example you could

00:53:22.640 --> 00:53:24.720
hunt this but not that you could pull

00:53:24.720 --> 00:53:26.960
this plant but not that plant you could

00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:28.480
eat some people

00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:30.880
we did in early clans we could you the

00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:33.520
forest people could eat the river people

00:53:33.520 --> 00:53:35.680
but you wouldn't so this is

00:53:35.680 --> 00:53:36.400
and

00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:37.599
what they

00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:39.280
understood at that time is when the

00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:41.280
hunters went out to kill let's say a

00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.319
lion or to kill something

00:53:44.319 --> 00:53:45.119
they

00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.839
imagined themselves to be in

00:53:47.839 --> 00:53:50.079
a bardo realm in between they were

00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:53.280
neither human nor animal because if they

00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:55.599
got to if they were eaten they were

00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:56.640
literally

00:53:56.640 --> 00:53:59.599
become an animal it's literal you're the

00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.720
lion eat you so you now transmogrify

00:54:02.720 --> 00:54:04.880
into a lion literally this is not

00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:09.040
mythology this is literally true right

00:54:09.040 --> 00:54:12.000
but then if you ate the animal

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:14.559
then the animal became human this is the

00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:18.079
first sign of religion

00:54:18.640 --> 00:54:21.200
these taboos are so deep that

00:54:21.200 --> 00:54:23.920
later on you get taboos around sex but

00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:26.160
all cultures

00:54:26.160 --> 00:54:28.559
disobey the sexual taboos

00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:29.839
but

00:54:29.839 --> 00:54:32.000
like our culture you would never think

00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:34.000
of eating a monkey brain

00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:36.480
it did the the the

00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:39.119
the japanese can't imagine killing deer

00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:40.000
and we

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.240
beat up on them because they kill whales

00:54:42.240 --> 00:54:45.280
eating food taboos are very very very

00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:46.079
deep

00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:47.599
in

00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:51.119
this in in our evolutionary history okay

00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:53.520
so when you're working with the animal

00:54:53.520 --> 00:54:54.720
realm

00:54:54.720 --> 00:54:56.400
you're saying well

00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.119
is there good and bad is

00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.920
if i really get in touch with my will

00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:03.920
and i get in touch with that i get to

00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.400
this place well

00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:08.720
am i going to have a split is it a good

00:55:08.720 --> 00:55:11.280
thing or a bad thing and you get you

00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:15.839
have to process through that question

00:55:15.839 --> 00:55:17.920
because in this area

00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:20.400
it's very very interesting

00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:22.640
where do norms come from

00:55:22.640 --> 00:55:24.559
where to tell if nature doesn't have

00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:26.480
norms or you know nature doesn't give a

00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:28.720
 about you like where does this come

00:55:28.720 --> 00:55:30.319
from

00:55:30.319 --> 00:55:32.799
this is the real work when you're

00:55:32.799 --> 00:55:37.280
dealing with the damon or the thumbos

00:55:37.520 --> 00:55:40.799
or the will kierkegaard

00:55:40.799 --> 00:55:43.599
kierkegaard used the story in the bible

00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:46.400
when god tells abraham to go kill your

00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:48.240
son

00:55:48.240 --> 00:55:50.880
that's a sin that's a horrible thing to

00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:51.839
do

00:55:51.839 --> 00:55:54.480
but the the commandments coming up like

00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:55.760
fumos

00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:59.280
and abraham's wondering

00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:04.000
is it a higher call you know do i go

00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.880
beyond good and evil

00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:08.880
that's that whole

00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:12.240
thing this is what what's in this area

00:56:12.240 --> 00:56:16.079
this is what's in this area

00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:20.000
so the damon and fumos

00:56:20.640 --> 00:56:23.760
is a kind of revival it's a it's a it's

00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:26.400
a revival of the will

00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:29.359
and i know like you have people on your

00:56:29.359 --> 00:56:31.760
in the store that are like body workers

00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:32.559
and

00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:34.799
crazy you know they're

00:56:34.799 --> 00:56:36.799
they work with the body in this kind of

00:56:36.799 --> 00:56:39.119
way and um

00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:42.839
and yeah this is something that that

00:56:42.839 --> 00:56:45.280
is that is interesting in the pop-up

00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:47.359
school we also looked at that kind of

00:56:47.359 --> 00:56:48.640
energy

00:56:48.640 --> 00:56:51.359
um with the notion of the ocean

00:56:51.359 --> 00:56:52.640
and the

00:56:52.640 --> 00:56:56.400
i don't know how to say c-t-h-u-l-u

00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.880
the the thoughtful the

00:56:58.880 --> 00:56:59.760
the

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:03.200
viking the energy of the deep ocean

00:57:03.200 --> 00:57:06.720
the patient feminine energy that swells

00:57:06.720 --> 00:57:09.599
and is very patient but will come and

00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:11.040
avenge

00:57:11.040 --> 00:57:13.520
the crimes on the earth so

00:57:13.520 --> 00:57:16.000
uh yeah that word thank you

00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:17.520
um so

00:57:17.520 --> 00:57:19.280
that's one way i don't know if that's

00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:21.280
prescriptive i'm not enough i'm not much

00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:23.520
of a prescriptive person but that would

00:57:23.520 --> 00:57:24.960
be

00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:28.000
where the fumos

00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.839
the thumb mostly lives

00:57:32.160 --> 00:57:33.839
this is this is really helping me like

00:57:33.839 --> 00:57:35.760
realize my tendency to want to dunk on

00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.000
buddhistic types um

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:40.559
so uh yeah it's pretty pretty

00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:41.520
cool

00:57:41.520 --> 00:57:42.720
um

00:57:42.720 --> 00:57:45.040
so i'm gonna take in daniel for a moment

00:57:45.040 --> 00:57:47.119
uh uh in a moment um but the last

00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:49.040
question i had um

00:57:49.040 --> 00:57:51.119
was uh in the original video i saw this

00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:54.079
you had another uh element the extend

00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:56.160
itself uh yeah

00:57:56.160 --> 00:57:58.880
relevant because bsd

00:57:58.880 --> 00:58:01.119
we're cohering and getting uh

00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:02.720
our right relationship with our college

00:58:02.720 --> 00:58:04.559
of practices via digital games we're

00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:06.000
doing this online so i was wondering if

00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:06.839
you could

00:58:06.839 --> 00:58:08.960
um talk about yeah so

00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:10.319
um

00:58:10.319 --> 00:58:12.240
this model i've taught this model for

00:58:12.240 --> 00:58:14.799
years and so i've only recently added

00:58:14.799 --> 00:58:16.400
the extended cell

00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:19.440
so we have here

00:58:20.839 --> 00:58:24.319
psyche mind

00:58:24.319 --> 00:58:26.480
and body

00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:29.119
one of the things that makes people much

00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:32.000
more successful than any other

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.520
creature is that we extend our bodies

00:58:35.520 --> 00:58:38.160
into tools right

00:58:38.160 --> 00:58:39.040
so

00:58:39.040 --> 00:58:40.480
we

00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:43.359
bicycles and cars and airplanes and

00:58:43.359 --> 00:58:45.760
hammers and stuff like that

00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:48.559
we extend our minds into

00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:50.640
like calculators

00:58:50.640 --> 00:58:55.200
um and and computers

00:58:56.720 --> 00:58:58.160
so this is

00:58:58.160 --> 00:59:00.400
uh so this is well

00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:02.240
this is an extension

00:59:02.240 --> 00:59:04.559
whatever i have i need a new a new

00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:06.240
category so the mind

00:59:06.240 --> 00:59:08.400
and what's interesting is that the

00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:10.480
question is is are we seeing the

00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:13.280
extension of the psychic psyche into uh

00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:16.680
virtual reality

00:59:19.040 --> 00:59:21.599
is that is that what's what we're

00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:24.240
looking at

00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.240
so as we extend our body more into tools

00:59:28.240 --> 00:59:30.240
and the machines do that work we become

00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:32.960
an information society and as we extend

00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:35.200
the information the machines do that

00:59:35.200 --> 00:59:37.599
work because they're better yeah a

00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:39.520
digital animal like

00:59:39.520 --> 00:59:43.359
is the psyche going to be extended

00:59:43.359 --> 00:59:44.319
into

00:59:44.319 --> 00:59:46.799
technology or virtual reality

00:59:46.799 --> 00:59:49.359
and then what kind of psyche is it

00:59:49.359 --> 00:59:51.680
you know we know what kind of mind we

00:59:51.680 --> 00:59:54.240
extend into our tools in our

00:59:54.240 --> 00:59:56.480
calculations we extend the extracted

00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:59.920
capitalist scene mind into that what

00:59:59.920 --> 01:00:02.559
kind of psyche is going to be extended

01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:04.240
into

01:00:04.240 --> 01:00:06.160
the virtual realm

01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:07.119
so

01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:08.880
that's an interesting that's an

01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:11.520
interesting question

01:00:11.520 --> 01:00:13.599
um you know

01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:16.480
it problematizes some of the way i work

01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:18.319
with this because it says just like the

01:00:18.319 --> 01:00:21.280
mind the psyche is here to stay

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:22.799
and

01:00:22.799 --> 01:00:24.799
there's not a pro it's not ever going to

01:00:24.799 --> 01:00:26.640
be a problem of cleaning it up it's a

01:00:26.640 --> 01:00:28.400
problem it's going to be a problem

01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:29.599
of

01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:33.119
making it more and more blind to us so

01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:34.960
just like the body is pretty much

01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:36.960
unconscious to most people

01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:39.359
the mind you have to have pretty

01:00:39.359 --> 01:00:42.799
pretty tough metacognition now to

01:00:42.799 --> 01:00:45.200
see your mind

01:00:45.200 --> 01:00:47.760
uh there is a chance in the future human

01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:51.119
the psyche will be as deep in the stack

01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:54.000
as the body is to us now

01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.480
and then you'll have another layer to

01:00:56.480 --> 01:00:58.720
have to work through and that is called

01:00:58.720 --> 01:01:01.280
the matrix when the psyche becomes as

01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:03.520
deep in the stack as our body is and now

01:01:03.520 --> 01:01:06.559
will be in the matrix

01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:08.079
yeah this this

01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:10.400
model keeps on giving um

01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:12.079
so i think i'm going to stop sharing the

01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:14.319
screen now or the spotlight uh and then

01:01:14.319 --> 01:01:16.640
i'm going to take daniel for a question

01:01:16.640 --> 01:01:17.680
um

01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:19.599
and then we'll pivot to uh group

01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:22.000
questions

01:01:23.040 --> 01:01:24.960
thanks so much for that um i think it's

01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:26.720
gonna take a couple days for

01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:28.559
me to internalize some of this and let

01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:30.319
it sink in

01:01:30.319 --> 01:01:32.720
um and i'm kind of groping around in the

01:01:32.720 --> 01:01:35.040
dark for question here but i i'll start

01:01:35.040 --> 01:01:37.440
riffing i think it'll come up

01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:39.359
you had a few words there

01:01:39.359 --> 01:01:41.599
um individuate

01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:43.280
integrate and liberate i think those are

01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.680
the words and maybe those are

01:01:45.680 --> 01:01:47.280
placeholders

01:01:47.280 --> 01:01:48.160
for

01:01:48.160 --> 01:01:50.400
for the work right yeah if somebody were

01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:52.480
to take this model and try to

01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:54.559
do something with it maybe those words

01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:56.720
act as like signposts for what to do and

01:01:56.720 --> 01:01:58.079
so i was trying to think in the spirit

01:01:58.079 --> 01:01:59.440
of bsd

01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:00.880
what is

01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:02.240
i guess my question is like what is the

01:02:02.240 --> 01:02:03.920
fundamental unit of that work and i'm

01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:05.280
going to

01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:06.720
rip a little more to so you know what i

01:02:06.720 --> 01:02:08.160
mean um

01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:09.440
if i were to try to summarize this to

01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:11.599
somebody in like 30 seconds who wasn't

01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:13.599
here i'd say it was a really cool model

01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:14.799
about

01:02:14.799 --> 01:02:15.760
um

01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:18.079
maybe maybe like a map for how to make

01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:21.200
things more conscious or um jordan hall

01:02:21.200 --> 01:02:24.000
in last week's session said our task is

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:25.520
conscious evolution

01:02:25.520 --> 01:02:27.520
and so when i think about that as as

01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:29.920
like an individual you know waking up in

01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:31.680
the morning faced with all the

01:02:31.680 --> 01:02:33.520
vicissitudes of life and all that my

01:02:33.520 --> 01:02:35.119
responsibilities

01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:37.039
and i think like okay what is that basic

01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:38.000
move

01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:40.000
um what is like the bicep curl of like

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:42.559
making things more conscious

01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:45.520
um the the the farthest i can get and i

01:02:45.520 --> 01:02:46.960
kind of want you to extend what i'm

01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:48.960
about to say the farthest i get is it's

01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:50.240
almost like

01:02:50.240 --> 01:02:52.640
you're like lovingly

01:02:52.640 --> 01:02:55.039
holding on to your fears in a steady

01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:57.359
gaze instead of avoiding them

01:02:57.359 --> 01:02:58.960
and then that might allow you to go

01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:00.960
deeper into the unconscious parts of the

01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:02.400
self in your model or it allows the

01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:04.960
gatekeeper to to open up

01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:06.960
am i on the right track there um and if

01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:09.200
not how would you modify that so i think

01:03:09.200 --> 01:03:11.599
the model is helpful

01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:13.680
for

01:03:13.680 --> 01:03:15.440
for

01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:19.359
any kind of practice that you use

01:03:19.359 --> 01:03:21.280
the model could be helpful

01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:24.400
when people are debriefing it right so

01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:25.280
um

01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:28.160
so for example

01:03:28.160 --> 01:03:30.319
i've started i've done collec we space

01:03:30.319 --> 01:03:31.440
practice so let's say you're doing

01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.200
respace practice

01:03:33.200 --> 01:03:35.920
and we start and then i'll tease people

01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:38.160
and i'll say

01:03:38.160 --> 01:03:40.160
i know you know no one's saying anything

01:03:40.160 --> 01:03:41.359
and i'm like

01:03:41.359 --> 01:03:43.760
there's a lot going on in your mind

01:03:43.760 --> 01:03:46.079
you're just gate keeping it like and

01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:48.559
people are like yeah right so i don't

01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:51.839
call it shadow i don't problematize it

01:03:51.839 --> 01:03:54.880
we just so that's the gatekeeper self

01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:58.160
and then i do this practice it's called

01:03:58.160 --> 01:04:00.319
reverse bohmian dialogue you know what

01:04:00.319 --> 01:04:03.359
bohmian dialogue is no okay bohmian

01:04:03.359 --> 01:04:05.839
dialogue is you sit around and you only

01:04:05.839 --> 01:04:09.200
speak from your highest self

01:04:09.200 --> 01:04:10.880
this is what i think if you really

01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:13.200
understand my model it makes you realize

01:04:13.200 --> 01:04:16.640
how up everything else is in in

01:04:16.640 --> 01:04:19.680
truth so bohmian dialogue is i go to

01:04:19.680 --> 01:04:21.280
this workshop and they say let's just

01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:23.599
speak from our highest self

01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:26.400
and then they say everything's included

01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.559
and i think wait

01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:32.000
uh if i speak for my highest self 99 of

01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:34.960
my experience is excluded

01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:36.799
which one is it

01:04:36.799 --> 01:04:38.640
people say things like this all the time

01:04:38.640 --> 01:04:40.319
and they don't even see that it's a

01:04:40.319 --> 01:04:42.880
complete setup

01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.680
it's right so bohmian dialogue is you're

01:04:45.680 --> 01:04:48.000
supposed to speak only from your highest

01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:49.520
self

01:04:49.520 --> 01:04:51.359
so i get into wee space practice and i

01:04:51.359 --> 01:04:53.680
say well you're just gatekeeping so you

01:04:53.680 --> 01:04:55.200
have to do it like on the second day

01:04:55.200 --> 01:04:56.480
because there's enough you have to have

01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:58.319
enough trust and people are so exhausted

01:04:58.319 --> 01:05:00.000
they do anything they don't give a

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:01.200
anymore

01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:03.039
so i said we're gonna agree

01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:05.039
we're gonna do it for three minutes this

01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:07.440
helps people

01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:08.799
take a chance

01:05:08.799 --> 01:05:11.839
and so there and i say and everything

01:05:11.839 --> 01:05:14.480
that comes up as soon as it comes up

01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.319
you're just going to speak it no more

01:05:16.319 --> 01:05:18.559
gay people none

01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:21.280
everybody agrees everyone has to say yes

01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:23.760
i agree right

01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:25.280
what do you think happens well what do

01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:26.799
you think people think is going to

01:05:26.799 --> 01:05:28.319
happen they get why are they really

01:05:28.319 --> 01:05:30.720
nervous

01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:32.880
because they've been thinking all kinds

01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:35.119
of bad things about everybody and they

01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:37.520
just agreed

01:05:37.520 --> 01:05:39.760
to say this as soon

01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:41.119
as it comes up

01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:42.880
so what happens when people do this

01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:44.559
exercise

01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:48.240
they're so vigilant no thoughts come up

01:05:48.240 --> 01:05:49.839
because as soon as the thought comes up

01:05:49.839 --> 01:05:52.079
they go to express it and it discharges

01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:55.440
the energy of the thought

01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:58.160
now they understand how to stop their

01:05:58.160 --> 01:06:00.720
busy mind because you can feel it as a

01:06:00.720 --> 01:06:03.599
proto thought in your stomach and you

01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:05.839
can work with it in your body before

01:06:05.839 --> 01:06:07.039
it's all this

01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:09.440
meandering this and that

01:06:09.440 --> 01:06:11.280
and i guess you know i can't show you

01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:13.280
that this model made that thing

01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:15.039
perfectly clear

01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:17.200
but

01:06:17.680 --> 01:06:20.319
to answer your question i think

01:06:20.319 --> 01:06:22.559
the first step is to know what's under

01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:24.680
the hood i think people are doing

01:06:24.680 --> 01:06:26.319
psychotechnologies and they don't know

01:06:26.319 --> 01:06:28.240
what's under the hood

01:06:28.240 --> 01:06:31.200
i think buddhistic practices have no

01:06:31.200 --> 01:06:32.559
 clue

01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:35.920
how the human works

01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:38.799
in in many cases not not like lee

01:06:38.799 --> 01:06:40.640
brassington he says oh you know you do

01:06:40.640 --> 01:06:42.559
this and you're manipulating the opioid

01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:45.280
system this is somebody who knows

01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:47.760
how the the you know that the ankle bone

01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:49.760
is connected to

01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:52.240
the leg bone right this is someone who

01:06:52.240 --> 01:06:54.880
knows that

01:06:56.240 --> 01:06:58.160
so um just three bullets that i'm taking

01:06:58.160 --> 01:07:00.559
away from that sorry i know no that's

01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:03.920
that's great for for a bsd context is

01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:06.799
i can see this as a good tool for

01:07:06.799 --> 01:07:08.640
first coming up with life practices

01:07:08.640 --> 01:07:09.760
because you can kind of diagnose

01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:11.280
yourself and be like you know what maybe

01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:12.960
i should focus more on embodiment

01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:14.960
practices or something like that you can

01:07:14.960 --> 01:07:16.720
also see this as a good tool for

01:07:16.720 --> 01:07:18.880
diagnosing whether or not you designed

01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:21.119
your practice as well so after maybe you

01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.119
you try it out for a couple of weeks and

01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:25.119
then you know something fails or a lot

01:07:25.119 --> 01:07:26.559
of resistance comes up you can kind of

01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:28.640
look back at this and see what was i

01:07:28.640 --> 01:07:30.799
neglecting and then what you just said i

01:07:30.799 --> 01:07:32.640
think can be really useful for the group

01:07:32.640 --> 01:07:34.400
practices where maybe there are

01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:35.920
techniques in order to

01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:38.559
dilate the gates of the gatekeeper so

01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:40.160
that people can cohere a little bit more

01:07:40.160 --> 01:07:42.319
together i have um one more question and

01:07:42.319 --> 01:07:44.319
then i'll hand it back to peter to field

01:07:44.319 --> 01:07:45.839
some from the audience but something

01:07:45.839 --> 01:07:47.520
that came up earlier is

01:07:47.520 --> 01:07:48.720
um

01:07:48.720 --> 01:07:50.319
it's clear that we're

01:07:50.319 --> 01:07:53.200
we're we that whole human pickle of like

01:07:53.200 --> 01:07:54.480
trying to be authentic in the face to

01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:56.960
the culture is it's it's a huge

01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:58.160
challenge

01:07:58.160 --> 01:08:01.440
and we also are the culture right so i i

01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:02.480
wonder

01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:04.640
i i i asked it this way in the chat but

01:08:04.640 --> 01:08:05.839
i feel like this question is not the

01:08:05.839 --> 01:08:08.480
best formulation of it in a culture that

01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:11.200
actively alienates us from our nature

01:08:11.200 --> 01:08:13.440
how do we achieve alignment across that

01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:15.440
vertical dimension without changing the

01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:17.839
culture

01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:22.920
um

01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:28.719
i mean i can explain it with by

01:08:28.719 --> 01:08:31.199
elucidating the model um

01:08:31.199 --> 01:08:33.279
it's it depends

01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:35.600
um

01:08:36.640 --> 01:08:39.839
this is

01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:42.319
uh

01:08:43.040 --> 01:08:45.040
the culture is going to change anyways i

01:08:45.040 --> 01:08:47.520
mean it's you know because because of

01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:50.159
this latency because these energies that

01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:53.120
get when i was young you knew we knew

01:08:53.120 --> 01:08:55.120
there were girls that were lesbians they

01:08:55.120 --> 01:08:57.440
got married bad kids but you knew they

01:08:57.440 --> 01:08:59.600
were lesbians and and this kind of

01:08:59.600 --> 01:09:02.480
energy you cannot hold it back you can't

01:09:02.480 --> 01:09:04.400
hold back that culture is going to

01:09:04.400 --> 01:09:06.880
change it's just painful for people and

01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:09.199
painful for a lot of people so we

01:09:09.199 --> 01:09:09.920
so

01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:12.319
knowing that that's you know this model

01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:14.319
is called the generative self the self

01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:16.640
is doing this anyways

01:09:16.640 --> 01:09:19.440
it's generating it's generative it's got

01:09:19.440 --> 01:09:21.920
this latency about it

01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:23.520
and so

01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:25.520
the question is

01:09:25.520 --> 01:09:27.600
um

01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:30.960
these categories i me mine we us as you

01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:33.120
move through them the way you think

01:09:33.120 --> 01:09:35.839
culture change moves also

01:09:35.839 --> 01:09:38.799
so for example

01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:42.239
in in the

01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:45.839
pre-modern these lower structures

01:09:45.839 --> 01:09:47.359
you just think

01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:49.440
yourself is pre-constituted by the

01:09:49.440 --> 01:09:51.040
culture you would never ask that

01:09:51.040 --> 01:09:52.400
question

01:09:52.400 --> 01:09:54.400
in the modern era

01:09:54.400 --> 01:09:57.199
we had people like carnegies and the

01:09:57.199 --> 01:10:00.320
queen of spain these that the the

01:10:00.320 --> 01:10:03.600
individual was the agent that changed

01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:05.040
the culture

01:10:05.040 --> 01:10:07.920
this is true a few captains of industry

01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:10.239
could change the culture

01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:12.800
now those times have gone

01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:15.199
this is not possible anymore

01:10:15.199 --> 01:10:17.760
so then you have to change you see this

01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:18.560
now

01:10:18.560 --> 01:10:21.679
in post-modern modernism

01:10:21.679 --> 01:10:24.640
they see the self as the locus of agency

01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:27.040
that changes the collective so you have

01:10:27.040 --> 01:10:30.000
activism

01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:33.120
right so that would be like an activism

01:10:33.120 --> 01:10:36.320
but then what we're seeing in metamodern

01:10:36.320 --> 01:10:38.400
is that the self is the locus of

01:10:38.400 --> 01:10:43.440
transformation that evolves other cells

01:10:43.440 --> 01:10:45.360
so you get out of the post-modern trap

01:10:45.360 --> 01:10:48.000
and that's what bsc is doing

01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:49.600
you're not really

01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:52.239
focused on the culture you're saying the

01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:54.400
locus of transformation of the culture

01:10:54.400 --> 01:10:56.800
is how do we evolve this how do cells

01:10:56.800 --> 01:10:59.199
evolve each other so you've got more of

01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:00.880
this direct link like you did in

01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:02.719
modernity a bunch of captains of

01:11:02.719 --> 01:11:03.920
industry

01:11:03.920 --> 01:11:08.080
you don't have this post-modern activism

01:11:08.080 --> 01:11:11.440
and that's that's what these what you

01:11:11.440 --> 01:11:13.600
and peter are moving into this different

01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:16.800
way of answering this wii question

01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:17.920
okay

01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:20.000
and there's another one coming online

01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:24.159
and you start to see the self

01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:26.480
as the locus of transformation that

01:11:26.480 --> 01:11:29.520
involves the collective

01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:32.480
and this is for people who have

01:11:32.480 --> 01:11:34.239
martin luther king is one of these

01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:36.080
people that he had a certain type of

01:11:36.080 --> 01:11:39.199
self that evolved the whole collective

01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:41.920
so this is on the other side of the one

01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:44.159
we're in now which is the metamodern

01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:46.719
that the self is seen as the locus of

01:11:46.719 --> 01:11:51.120
transformation that involves the self

01:11:51.120 --> 01:11:52.800
that's beautiful

01:11:52.800 --> 01:11:53.920
so

01:11:53.920 --> 01:11:56.080
yeah it's an interesting question it

01:11:56.080 --> 01:11:56.960
comes

01:11:56.960 --> 01:12:00.800
in the model this move i mean mine we us

01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:03.520
they come with the collective the sense

01:12:03.520 --> 01:12:06.000
of the we us evolves

01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:07.760
along with that

01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:08.560
so

01:12:08.560 --> 01:12:11.040
um yeah it's a great question and i'm

01:12:11.040 --> 01:12:14.800
very happy you recognized yourself in

01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:17.600
that movement

01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:22.320
awesome thanks daniel um yeah let's get

01:12:22.320 --> 01:12:24.800
some other voices in here uh the next

01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:27.760
person i'll take in a plugger event uh

01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:29.199
first uh she's coming to the stowa on

01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:30.480
november 10th

01:12:30.480 --> 01:12:31.840
a session called awakening the subtle

01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:33.920
body embodiment practice so you can have

01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:35.679
a sense of um

01:12:35.679 --> 01:12:38.480
you know what her interest space is uh

01:12:38.480 --> 01:12:40.320
skyler brown uh can you ask your

01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:42.239
question to benita

01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:43.440
thank you

01:12:43.440 --> 01:12:46.480
um hi bonnie

01:12:46.719 --> 01:12:48.960
this has been so fun and my mind is

01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:51.040
really blown um and i've seen this

01:12:51.040 --> 01:12:52.719
before so

01:12:52.719 --> 01:12:55.120
it just keeps keeps deeper

01:12:55.120 --> 01:12:57.280
um the question i have and it feels like

01:12:57.280 --> 01:12:59.280
um maybe some others

01:12:59.280 --> 01:13:01.760
were plus wanting this um

01:13:01.760 --> 01:13:04.480
where does imagination

01:13:04.480 --> 01:13:08.159
work or what is the role of imagination

01:13:08.159 --> 01:13:11.120
um i imagine or the way i experience it

01:13:11.120 --> 01:13:13.120
is in working with those

01:13:13.120 --> 01:13:14.880
with the trajectory that the the

01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:18.239
deepening of the trajectory downward the

01:13:18.239 --> 01:13:19.920
embodiment piece

01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:22.000
but i'm curious if it

01:13:22.000 --> 01:13:24.320
sort of flows throughout the model or

01:13:24.320 --> 01:13:26.159
yeah i would love to hear you on that

01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:28.159
yeah so

01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:30.080
the thing is is when the mind is

01:13:30.080 --> 01:13:33.120
liberated in the psyches individuated

01:13:33.120 --> 01:13:35.840
they no longer act like the kind of mind

01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:38.000
we have or like the kind of psyche i

01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:39.600
complain about

01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:41.600
and the psyche

01:13:41.600 --> 01:13:45.360
becomes is the imagine it's imaginative

01:13:45.360 --> 01:13:46.800
so you've heard me complain about

01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:48.719
respace practice because if you keep on

01:13:48.719 --> 01:13:50.800
looking at the psyche in a certain way

01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:52.960
it infinitely imagines more and more

01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:54.960
structures and more and more there's

01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:57.280
there's no end to it but people think

01:13:57.280 --> 01:14:00.960
that's in them rather than say ah

01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:04.719
how can i use this skill and imagine you

01:14:04.719 --> 01:14:06.960
know like the totem we imagine different

01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:08.880
orientations to the world that's all

01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:11.280
very psychic

01:14:11.280 --> 01:14:13.040
uh but

01:14:13.040 --> 01:14:15.360
it's not filled with just creating

01:14:15.360 --> 01:14:17.239
structures you're identifying or just

01:14:17.239 --> 01:14:19.440
identifying with

01:14:19.440 --> 01:14:22.000
what you're very aware is that it is the

01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:23.280
function of

01:14:23.280 --> 01:14:26.239
the imagination

01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:28.239
and it can partner with when it partners

01:14:28.239 --> 01:14:31.040
with a mind that's not completely

01:14:31.040 --> 01:14:32.400
conditioned

01:14:32.400 --> 01:14:35.040
then you can do things like create new

01:14:35.040 --> 01:14:36.640
theories of change because you've

01:14:36.640 --> 01:14:39.120
imagined worlds and they can partner

01:14:39.120 --> 01:14:41.600
that that way

01:14:41.600 --> 01:14:44.880
um yeah so that's where it would be it

01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:45.840
um

01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:47.920
but you know and that's of course young

01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:50.960
you know the psyche becomes imaginable

01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:53.520
um and not

01:14:53.520 --> 01:14:55.280
instead of filled with imaginary

01:14:55.280 --> 01:14:57.840
structures

01:15:00.080 --> 01:15:03.920
but of course it's all connected because

01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:07.120
this imagination of the psyche or the

01:15:07.120 --> 01:15:10.159
predictive virtual reality playing of

01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:13.280
the mind if it's disembodied

01:15:13.280 --> 01:15:14.960
it's not aligned you don't have

01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:17.600
alignment

01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:21.280
i'm going to give voice to the second

01:15:21.280 --> 01:15:22.719
part of the question that's coming up in

01:15:22.719 --> 01:15:25.520
the chat which is about intimacy

01:15:25.520 --> 01:15:28.880
ari's asking about intimacy

01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:31.120
depends what you mean yeah i think you

01:15:31.120 --> 01:15:34.320
might have to elaborate on um

01:15:34.320 --> 01:15:36.840
intimacy comes with the

01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:38.719
neuroeffective affects you know

01:15:38.719 --> 01:15:41.840
neurodynamic affects streams intimacy

01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:43.360
and grief

01:15:43.360 --> 01:15:44.239
uh

01:15:44.239 --> 01:15:46.880
are part of the same grief is the loss

01:15:46.880 --> 01:15:49.199
of someone you're intimate with

01:15:49.199 --> 01:15:50.719
um these

01:15:50.719 --> 01:15:51.679
are

01:15:51.679 --> 01:15:54.239
part of our animal nature

01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:56.239
um

01:15:56.239 --> 01:15:58.560
yeah these are part of our animal nature

01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:01.280
but they get more sophisticated

01:16:01.280 --> 01:16:01.720
um

01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:03.199
[Music]

01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:05.600
and it depends what you mean by intimacy

01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:08.320
you know there's a lot of ways

01:16:08.320 --> 01:16:09.760
to read that

01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:12.000
um

01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:14.320
ari do you want to jump in and

01:16:14.320 --> 01:16:16.080
on your question

01:16:16.080 --> 01:16:17.380
yeah thanks um

01:16:17.380 --> 01:16:18.880
[Music]

01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:21.520
i guess my

01:16:21.520 --> 01:16:24.480
how i mean intimacy is i'm not sure i'm

01:16:24.480 --> 01:16:26.719
kind of on a

01:16:26.719 --> 01:16:28.000
riff right now

01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:29.679
inquiring about it

01:16:29.679 --> 01:16:30.960
and

01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:34.800
my intuition is that it relates

01:16:34.800 --> 01:16:36.560
as you say it

01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:39.199
can get more sophisticated

01:16:39.199 --> 01:16:41.360
over time and that

01:16:41.360 --> 01:16:44.080
that like dot of intimacy could move

01:16:44.080 --> 01:16:46.840
around and i also intuit that it has

01:16:46.840 --> 01:16:49.520
something a close relation with the

01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:51.040
gatekeeper

01:16:51.040 --> 01:16:52.960
in any given moment so i would love to

01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:54.320
hear

01:16:54.320 --> 01:16:58.960
yeah so intimacy i would say is a state

01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:00.800
it could be a

01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:03.760
feel like fusion or merging whose self

01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:05.280
and who's other

01:17:05.280 --> 01:17:06.320
um

01:17:06.320 --> 01:17:08.560
the more intimate something is that the

01:17:08.560 --> 01:17:11.040
more the less boundary there is between

01:17:11.040 --> 01:17:12.640
self and other

01:17:12.640 --> 01:17:14.159
um

01:17:14.159 --> 01:17:16.080
if you're intimate with something you

01:17:16.080 --> 01:17:17.679
could be intimate with a thing and when

01:17:17.679 --> 01:17:20.719
it breaks it hurts you you know like so

01:17:20.719 --> 01:17:23.199
to me intimacy is this

01:17:23.199 --> 01:17:25.360
larger embrace of

01:17:25.360 --> 01:17:26.320
of

01:17:26.320 --> 01:17:27.120
uh

01:17:27.120 --> 01:17:30.320
of care a larger sphere of carer

01:17:30.320 --> 01:17:32.640
but it's associated with a bodily

01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:34.000
reaction

01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:36.640
to feel intimate with something

01:17:36.640 --> 01:17:38.400
is in your body

01:17:38.400 --> 01:17:39.440
um

01:17:39.440 --> 01:17:42.080
it's it's and then of course like

01:17:42.080 --> 01:17:45.560
everything else

01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:48.320
one of the things about these

01:17:48.320 --> 01:17:50.400
these emotional states if you want to

01:17:50.400 --> 01:17:53.120
say that or these affect states

01:17:53.120 --> 01:17:57.760
is that they're complex so for example

01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:01.920
if you flood your system with oxytocin

01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:04.560
like um if you see a little fawn walk

01:18:04.560 --> 01:18:06.640
into the room you start to feel oh and

01:18:06.640 --> 01:18:08.239
you it just

01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:10.239
oxytocin comes in

01:18:10.239 --> 01:18:12.239
and they did this experiment in prison

01:18:12.239 --> 01:18:13.440
where they're like why don't we just

01:18:13.440 --> 01:18:15.760
give prisoners oxytocin to reduce the

01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:17.120
violence

01:18:17.120 --> 01:18:19.920
but oxytocin creates intimacy which

01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:21.040
means

01:18:21.040 --> 01:18:22.880
the mother bear

01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:25.920
loves a child and any foreigner gets

01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:27.199
 with

01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:29.520
it comes with that action

01:18:29.520 --> 01:18:31.520
action logics also

01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:34.560
because intimacy is both inclusive in a

01:18:34.560 --> 01:18:38.560
spherical and extremely exclusive

01:18:38.560 --> 01:18:40.239
outside of it so if you're intimate with

01:18:40.239 --> 01:18:41.520
your partner

01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:44.400
you don't want anyone in your life right

01:18:44.400 --> 01:18:45.280
so

01:18:45.280 --> 01:18:46.159
so

01:18:46.159 --> 01:18:48.080
these all come from

01:18:48.080 --> 01:18:51.440
the animal body but as humans we can use

01:18:51.440 --> 01:18:54.159
our minds in our identity project and

01:18:54.159 --> 01:18:56.000
our spirituality

01:18:56.000 --> 01:19:00.080
to increase our sphere of care

01:19:00.080 --> 01:19:02.120
and understand it comes with this

01:19:02.120 --> 01:19:06.400
exclusionary thing and rewire

01:19:06.400 --> 01:19:08.600
that it's a compassion so you're

01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:11.520
compassionate you really work with your

01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:15.440
body so the state of intimacy

01:19:15.440 --> 01:19:18.400
is in one direction and not the other

01:19:18.400 --> 01:19:20.800
and that's the care

01:19:20.800 --> 01:19:23.120
the larger spheres of care

01:19:23.120 --> 01:19:27.120
can i be intimate with a stranger

01:19:28.480 --> 01:19:31.040
can i blend so much with

01:19:31.040 --> 01:19:34.000
empathic like can i have empathic

01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:37.840
projection onto an animal

01:19:37.920 --> 01:19:42.000
so intimacy is in the body but then

01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:45.199
the range for polar bear it's not very

01:19:45.199 --> 01:19:47.520
big

01:19:47.679 --> 01:19:51.280
for people that we seem to be able

01:19:51.280 --> 01:19:53.199
to

01:19:53.199 --> 01:19:55.840
create larger spheres

01:19:55.840 --> 01:19:56.640
of

01:19:56.640 --> 01:19:59.840
embrace of intimacy

01:20:02.640 --> 01:20:05.920
any quick follow-up shirt are you

01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:11.520
yeah i would i that's amazing um

01:20:12.080 --> 01:20:14.400
one way we

01:20:14.400 --> 01:20:16.719
collectively seem to use intimacy is

01:20:16.719 --> 01:20:18.560
emotional intimacy of

01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:20.800
sharing what is

01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:21.760
real

01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:24.560
in real time and i would love to

01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:29.880
hear you kind of map that specific piece

01:20:32.719 --> 01:20:34.880
you mean like not having a gatekeeper

01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:37.120
self

01:20:37.440 --> 01:20:40.110
what do you mean by real like values or

01:20:40.110 --> 01:20:42.400
[Music]

01:20:42.400 --> 01:20:44.239
it's almost how i've been kind of

01:20:44.239 --> 01:20:46.880
thinking about intimacy lately is almost

01:20:46.880 --> 01:20:48.880
being able to share what the witness

01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:49.920
sees

01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:52.400
as opposed to just

01:20:52.400 --> 01:20:54.400
uh you know like something that

01:20:54.400 --> 01:20:56.639
schwarktenberger would talk about as

01:20:56.639 --> 01:20:59.280
like weaponized honesty

01:20:59.280 --> 01:21:01.840
um

01:21:02.719 --> 01:21:04.239
yeah so

01:21:04.239 --> 01:21:06.480
like i think i can

01:21:06.480 --> 01:21:08.800
so you have a you have a certain in

01:21:08.800 --> 01:21:09.840
inner

01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:13.199
inner reality that's hard to share

01:21:13.199 --> 01:21:15.040
and

01:21:15.040 --> 01:21:16.719
because

01:21:16.719 --> 01:21:18.639
and what i'm hearing you saying is like

01:21:18.639 --> 01:21:21.760
when when you intimacy is both moving

01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:25.600
into a position where it's shareable

01:21:26.480 --> 01:21:28.960
and this kind of connection where that

01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:33.360
transmission happens in a kind of

01:21:33.440 --> 01:21:36.480
sometimes without a lot of words

01:21:36.480 --> 01:21:38.000
and then all of a sudden you might feel

01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:39.920
very intimate because

01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:41.920
your inner world you're what you're

01:21:41.920 --> 01:21:44.239
witnessing

01:21:44.239 --> 01:21:46.080
is somehow now

01:21:46.080 --> 01:21:48.320
uh we talk about it in the pop-up school

01:21:48.320 --> 01:21:50.639
like you're working on a jam board and

01:21:50.639 --> 01:21:52.159
someone all of a sudden is working on

01:21:52.159 --> 01:21:54.000
their jamboard and at some point you

01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:55.360
realize

01:21:55.360 --> 01:21:57.600
it's just one jamboard

01:21:57.600 --> 01:21:58.880
in your

01:21:58.880 --> 01:22:01.040
in your inner life

01:22:01.040 --> 01:22:02.239
and

01:22:02.239 --> 01:22:05.440
that brings that i would say is also

01:22:05.440 --> 01:22:07.840
makes your body feel intimate because

01:22:07.840 --> 01:22:09.679
intimacy has to do with this lack of

01:22:09.679 --> 01:22:11.920
boundary between self and other

01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:13.920
so whether it's a physical boundary

01:22:13.920 --> 01:22:17.280
whether it's a mental witnessing or

01:22:17.280 --> 01:22:20.000
these ways in which you can come up with

01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:22.080
ideas with like a lot of

01:22:22.080 --> 01:22:24.239
i've done like we space practice with

01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:26.320
like jordan hall and there's a point at

01:22:26.320 --> 01:22:28.320
which like before someone says something

01:22:28.320 --> 01:22:30.400
it's very intellectual it's like

01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:32.159
you're in their mind and they're in your

01:22:32.159 --> 01:22:34.159
mind and you're working with the same

01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:36.080
working memory you got you're working on

01:22:36.080 --> 01:22:37.920
the same jam board and that makes you

01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:40.080
feel very intimate

01:22:40.080 --> 01:22:42.960
so in this sense the porosity is through

01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:44.800
the intellect or whatever you want to

01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:47.520
call it versus maybe you know the the

01:22:47.520 --> 01:22:50.400
body actually but the body

01:22:50.400 --> 01:22:52.960
you feel intimate there's a and so

01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:56.000
that's what i think intimacy is this

01:22:56.000 --> 01:22:58.159
and that comes in when i said the core

01:22:58.159 --> 01:22:59.120
self

01:22:59.120 --> 01:23:01.040
is always trying to figure out self

01:23:01.040 --> 01:23:02.400
other and world

01:23:02.400 --> 01:23:04.080
and it changes because when you're

01:23:04.080 --> 01:23:07.199
intimate you're like well who's mine is

01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:09.840
it whose body is it

01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:11.360
is that the world or is that my

01:23:11.360 --> 01:23:13.520
projection on the world and this is a

01:23:13.520 --> 01:23:15.600
lively project

01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:18.159
that it's not resolvable

01:23:18.159 --> 01:23:21.199
um and and i think that's

01:23:21.199 --> 01:23:23.679
part of my answer to you i don't know if

01:23:23.679 --> 01:23:25.920
it nailed it or something but

01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:28.719
somewhere around there was that

01:23:28.719 --> 01:23:31.280
totally nailed it thank you so much

01:23:31.280 --> 01:23:33.360
and to briefly plug ari's podcast it's

01:23:33.360 --> 01:23:34.880
really good i'd recommend

01:23:34.880 --> 01:23:36.320
checking out i would love to have a to

01:23:36.320 --> 01:23:38.159
see or hear a conversation with benita

01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:40.639
and ari on his podcast

01:23:40.639 --> 01:23:42.960
um so we're approaching the end of the

01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:45.760
hour or end of the 90 minutes um

01:23:45.760 --> 01:23:47.120
there's one question i wanted to sneak

01:23:47.120 --> 01:23:48.320
in but do you have to you have a hard

01:23:48.320 --> 01:23:52.000
stop b um no i'm open okay i'm just

01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:53.760
getting on a roll because you know i've

01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:55.760
been up since two o'clock and now i've

01:23:55.760 --> 01:23:57.520
passed that threshold where it just

01:23:57.520 --> 01:24:00.320
feels like easy straight and the the

01:24:00.320 --> 01:24:02.719
body's just doing what it's doing

01:24:02.719 --> 01:24:04.159
beautiful beautiful

01:24:04.159 --> 01:24:06.000
so so we'll have one more question uh if

01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:07.280
you have to slip out now feel free to

01:24:07.280 --> 01:24:08.719
this will be on the stove's youtube

01:24:08.719 --> 01:24:10.080
channel if you if you want to catch it

01:24:10.080 --> 01:24:12.159
there and for the last question we'll

01:24:12.159 --> 01:24:14.239
take in another embodied witch from the

01:24:14.239 --> 01:24:17.520
high pitch series uh if you can ask me

01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:19.360
your question

01:24:19.360 --> 01:24:20.239
hey

01:24:20.239 --> 01:24:21.520
thank you

01:24:21.520 --> 01:24:22.400
um

01:24:22.400 --> 01:24:24.800
after being away from the store for

01:24:24.800 --> 01:24:28.239
months this is my first and

01:24:28.239 --> 01:24:32.480
i feel a lot of intimacy that last um

01:24:32.480 --> 01:24:34.400
conversation brought up

01:24:34.400 --> 01:24:37.120
the connection between intimacy

01:24:37.120 --> 01:24:39.920
and my original question was about the

01:24:39.920 --> 01:24:42.800
vertical alignment and the horizontal

01:24:42.800 --> 01:24:45.040
coherence

01:24:45.040 --> 01:24:48.560
and about the relationship

01:24:49.360 --> 01:24:51.199
of those two

01:24:51.199 --> 01:24:53.360
and even more specifically what do you

01:24:53.360 --> 01:24:55.760
mean by coherence

01:24:55.760 --> 01:24:58.480
and as you guys were jiving about

01:24:58.480 --> 01:25:00.800
intimacy

01:25:00.800 --> 01:25:03.760
i was getting a sense that coherence

01:25:03.760 --> 01:25:06.480
actually relates

01:25:06.480 --> 01:25:08.800
at least in the way i understand

01:25:08.800 --> 01:25:11.440
alignment to come up come online

01:25:11.440 --> 01:25:13.679
with intimacy

01:25:13.679 --> 01:25:15.679
i'm just throwing things at you you can

01:25:15.679 --> 01:25:18.080
go wherever you want

01:25:18.080 --> 01:25:21.280
yeah so by coherence i just mean

01:25:21.280 --> 01:25:23.360
we could take the simple

01:25:23.360 --> 01:25:25.760
definition of it in other words when i

01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:28.159
speak to many different people do i can

01:25:28.159 --> 01:25:30.880
i be coherent in the in conversation

01:25:30.880 --> 01:25:32.719
with many different people

01:25:32.719 --> 01:25:34.719
so a trump of democrat is trump

01:25:34.719 --> 01:25:37.040
supporter and a hillary supporter they

01:25:37.040 --> 01:25:38.719
can't be coherent with each other

01:25:38.719 --> 01:25:39.760
they're just

01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:42.480
they can't embrace the collective that

01:25:42.480 --> 01:25:43.600
is

01:25:43.600 --> 01:25:45.280
u.s people

01:25:45.280 --> 01:25:48.480
right so coherence is

01:25:48.480 --> 01:25:50.320
to is just

01:25:50.320 --> 01:25:52.639
i can be coherent in my family okay yeah

01:25:52.639 --> 01:25:55.280
they get me can i be coherent

01:25:55.280 --> 01:25:58.400
in my workplace well yeah but maybe i'm

01:25:58.400 --> 01:26:00.159
fighting with that person i can't enter

01:26:00.159 --> 01:26:02.480
into their reality so how that's what

01:26:02.480 --> 01:26:05.440
coherence means like you can

01:26:05.440 --> 01:26:07.120
you can commune with them you can

01:26:07.120 --> 01:26:10.080
communicate in a coherent way

01:26:10.080 --> 01:26:11.120
so

01:26:11.120 --> 01:26:12.400
um

01:26:12.400 --> 01:26:15.040
this would be harder to do

01:26:15.040 --> 01:26:16.159
if

01:26:16.159 --> 01:26:18.320
and and so what happens is if you're

01:26:18.320 --> 01:26:19.920
trying to be coherent with other

01:26:19.920 --> 01:26:21.520
cultures

01:26:21.520 --> 01:26:23.360
and you call

01:26:23.360 --> 01:26:24.800
female

01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:26.880
genitalia

01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:29.920
mutilation female genitalia mutilation

01:26:29.920 --> 01:26:31.679
and you call

01:26:31.679 --> 01:26:34.480
circumcision circumcision

01:26:34.480 --> 01:26:36.639
it's going to be hard to be coherent in

01:26:36.639 --> 01:26:39.199
certain cultures because you've created

01:26:39.199 --> 01:26:40.880
a split between

01:26:40.880 --> 01:26:43.120
this is genital mutilation and this is

01:26:43.120 --> 01:26:45.760
circumcision

01:26:45.760 --> 01:26:48.719
and you put the one version into a bad

01:26:48.719 --> 01:26:50.480
category and you put the other version

01:26:50.480 --> 01:26:52.239
into the good category

01:26:52.239 --> 01:26:54.960
so i can't be coherent across those

01:26:54.960 --> 01:26:57.520
cultures until i figure out why do

01:26:57.520 --> 01:27:00.639
cultures mutilate genitals

01:27:00.639 --> 01:27:03.520
as humans that's what we do

01:27:03.520 --> 01:27:06.000
we mutilate genitals

01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:06.880
okay

01:27:06.880 --> 01:27:09.199
now i'm just gonna try to this is the

01:27:09.199 --> 01:27:11.280
depth image i gotta come to terms with

01:27:11.280 --> 01:27:13.600
that it's not like that's a bad version

01:27:13.600 --> 01:27:15.280
this is a good version that's culturally

01:27:15.280 --> 01:27:17.120
conditioned i need to get underneath the

01:27:17.120 --> 01:27:21.120
phenomenon of culture itself

01:27:21.120 --> 01:27:23.040
once i can do that

01:27:23.040 --> 01:27:26.000
then i can be coherent i can say in both

01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:27.760
situations

01:27:27.760 --> 01:27:30.080
you know that i'm really uncomfortable

01:27:30.080 --> 01:27:32.320
with that because for me and there's no

01:27:32.320 --> 01:27:33.840
charge to it

01:27:33.840 --> 01:27:36.880
i'm coherent with my expression across

01:27:36.880 --> 01:27:38.880
both those cultures

01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:40.400
i mean i had this conversation with

01:27:40.400 --> 01:27:43.040
someone in my class and she's like

01:27:43.040 --> 01:27:45.840
well but some culture you know she just

01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:48.560
couldn't see any relationship between

01:27:48.560 --> 01:27:49.600
female

01:27:49.600 --> 01:27:52.719
genital mutilation and circumcision

01:27:52.719 --> 01:27:55.760
she just couldn't be cohered across

01:27:55.760 --> 01:27:58.320
that good bad

01:27:58.320 --> 01:27:59.520
thing

01:27:59.520 --> 01:28:00.400
so

01:28:00.400 --> 01:28:02.960
you can't

01:28:03.679 --> 01:28:05.120
have a

01:28:05.120 --> 01:28:08.000
real relationship or conversation

01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:10.080
across those cultures

01:28:10.080 --> 01:28:12.560
you see this in like this is a problem

01:28:12.560 --> 01:28:14.320
with you know everybody trying to build

01:28:14.320 --> 01:28:17.360
a coherent politics

01:28:17.360 --> 01:28:19.360
well to build a coherent politics you

01:28:19.360 --> 01:28:23.040
can't bias one side or the other

01:28:23.040 --> 01:28:25.520
so i was in a conversation with the

01:28:25.520 --> 01:28:26.800
integral

01:28:26.800 --> 01:28:29.120
political group in europe

01:28:29.120 --> 01:28:30.400
and

01:28:30.400 --> 01:28:32.000
they so i said well what do you do they

01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:34.719
say well we put out

01:28:34.719 --> 01:28:36.719
brochures to try to get people to vote

01:28:36.719 --> 01:28:38.800
this way not that way

01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:42.080
i said well that's that's a cool job but

01:28:42.080 --> 01:28:43.679
it's not integral

01:28:43.679 --> 01:28:45.679
like so they were they wanted people to

01:28:45.679 --> 01:28:48.719
vote for the clean water act

01:28:48.719 --> 01:28:50.000
and the and they're like because the

01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:51.760
farmers don't want to do it i said the

01:28:51.760 --> 01:28:54.320
farmers don't want dirty water any more

01:28:54.320 --> 01:28:56.560
than you want dirty water they're not a

01:28:56.560 --> 01:28:58.960
bunch of idiots oh i gotta vote for like

01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:01.520
poisonous water

01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:04.000
so it's not coherent it's not coherent

01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:06.719
across that conversation it's just

01:29:06.719 --> 01:29:07.920
biased

01:29:07.920 --> 01:29:09.760
that we're imagining farmers as being

01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:13.280
bad stupid people who wanted dirty water

01:29:13.280 --> 01:29:15.360
it's completely incoherent the

01:29:15.360 --> 01:29:17.280
conversation will not go here

01:29:17.280 --> 01:29:19.520
so

01:29:19.840 --> 01:29:22.159
so you need to do some examination of

01:29:22.159 --> 01:29:25.199
your culture in order to then embrace

01:29:25.199 --> 01:29:26.400
the larger

01:29:26.400 --> 01:29:28.719
so it could be coherent in

01:29:28.719 --> 01:29:30.639
the larger scale

01:29:30.639 --> 01:29:34.159
and so that's what i mean by coherence

01:29:34.159 --> 01:29:35.120
and

01:29:35.120 --> 01:29:37.040
the problem with this model i mean if

01:29:37.040 --> 01:29:38.880
you maybe it's because i'm tired is it

01:29:38.880 --> 01:29:41.360
really makes you despair because like

01:29:41.360 --> 01:29:44.239
there's there's not a lot of coherence

01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:46.560
there's not a lot of embodiment there's

01:29:46.560 --> 01:29:49.760
not almost everybody leads with their me

01:29:49.760 --> 01:29:51.199
in our culture

01:29:51.199 --> 01:29:52.960
um and so

01:29:52.960 --> 01:29:55.120
so the model

01:29:55.120 --> 01:29:56.400
is

01:29:56.400 --> 01:29:58.080
is

01:29:58.080 --> 01:30:01.920
you know it it's a loud voice

01:30:01.920 --> 01:30:05.120
it speaks loudly

01:30:05.120 --> 01:30:07.040
there's so many people blah blah blah in

01:30:07.040 --> 01:30:08.960
spiritual communities and they don't

01:30:08.960 --> 01:30:10.480
even leave they leave with their me

01:30:10.480 --> 01:30:13.120
still it's not possible

01:30:13.120 --> 01:30:14.880
to be liberated and enlightened when

01:30:14.880 --> 01:30:16.880
you're leading with your me

01:30:16.880 --> 01:30:18.639
or if you still have mommy and daddy

01:30:18.639 --> 01:30:21.199
issues it's not possible

01:30:21.199 --> 01:30:24.960
these are very very very primitive

01:30:24.960 --> 01:30:27.040
parts of the human condition which is

01:30:27.040 --> 01:30:29.360
okay we have to deal with them but deal

01:30:29.360 --> 01:30:32.080
with those

01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:34.960
as the woman from

01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:38.159
sounds true she's said about andrew

01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:41.920
cullen he's she's like for god's sakes

01:30:41.920 --> 01:30:44.960
get over your mommy issues first before

01:30:44.960 --> 01:30:48.679
you go out and teach enlightenment

01:30:48.719 --> 01:30:50.400
that's kind of the energy behind the

01:30:50.400 --> 01:30:52.330
model that's how i pocket my students

01:30:52.330 --> 01:30:55.360
[Music]

01:30:55.360 --> 01:30:57.520
well i love that it's highlighting

01:30:57.520 --> 01:31:01.360
embodiment as the gateway

01:31:01.360 --> 01:31:03.199
and as a process

01:31:03.199 --> 01:31:05.280
to move forward

01:31:05.280 --> 01:31:06.320
and

01:31:06.320 --> 01:31:08.320
again why intimacy

01:31:08.320 --> 01:31:11.280
did light up for me or in which context

01:31:11.280 --> 01:31:14.840
it did light up for me was exactly

01:31:14.840 --> 01:31:18.480
that intimacy with further further

01:31:18.480 --> 01:31:20.880
intimacy with self with the inner self

01:31:20.880 --> 01:31:22.639
with the subtle self

01:31:22.639 --> 01:31:25.040
increasing in intimacy with the subtle

01:31:25.040 --> 01:31:27.920
self then allows that expansion for me

01:31:27.920 --> 01:31:30.400
to come and talk to a trump water and

01:31:30.400 --> 01:31:31.920
not be

01:31:31.920 --> 01:31:35.120
hold my ground in a nice way nice

01:31:35.120 --> 01:31:38.400
meaning like not triggered

01:31:38.400 --> 01:31:41.600
so this this this phrase intimacy with

01:31:41.600 --> 01:31:45.199
yourself is interesting because

01:31:45.199 --> 01:31:47.199
we talked about intimacy as losing

01:31:47.199 --> 01:31:48.960
boundaries right

01:31:48.960 --> 01:31:50.239
and so to me

01:31:50.239 --> 01:31:52.480
if you're intimate with yourself

01:31:52.480 --> 01:31:55.280
then these structures like this is the

01:31:55.280 --> 01:31:57.360
good girl this is the bad girl this is

01:31:57.360 --> 01:32:00.800
this they they they would tend to become

01:32:00.800 --> 01:32:04.000
more holistic i would say

01:32:04.000 --> 01:32:05.840
because you're not the whole

01:32:05.840 --> 01:32:08.880
understanding of intimacy is that things

01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:12.080
aren't so separate separated

01:32:12.080 --> 01:32:14.080
the forces are aligned there's a

01:32:14.080 --> 01:32:16.320
seamless communication

01:32:16.320 --> 01:32:19.360
so that's an interesting way to use this

01:32:19.360 --> 01:32:22.560
notion of intimacy

01:32:23.760 --> 01:32:24.800
so

01:32:24.800 --> 01:32:27.520
thank you uh hey um

01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:29.760
so i sense this is a good place to close

01:32:29.760 --> 01:32:30.800
uh

01:32:30.800 --> 01:32:32.880
like so this is this is like probably

01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:34.480
one of my favorite sessions i've had

01:32:34.480 --> 01:32:36.480
since it still has started uh so

01:32:36.480 --> 01:32:37.760
good and i think we're gonna have to

01:32:37.760 --> 01:32:39.360
spend a lot of time with this session

01:32:39.360 --> 01:32:40.560
and just i'm going to watch this video

01:32:40.560 --> 01:32:42.000
again and again and then

01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:43.920
perhaps we can have some kind of uh

01:32:43.920 --> 01:32:45.040
study groups and how this can be

01:32:45.040 --> 01:32:48.159
integrated to the bsd process um but b

01:32:48.159 --> 01:32:49.679
do you have any closing thoughts uh or

01:32:49.679 --> 01:32:51.920
words you'd like to leave us with

01:32:51.920 --> 01:32:55.840
yeah i think that um

01:32:57.440 --> 01:32:59.280
you know i think that

01:32:59.280 --> 01:33:02.400
what's nice about the model is when it

01:33:02.400 --> 01:33:04.080
can

01:33:04.080 --> 01:33:06.840
confirm some of

01:33:06.840 --> 01:33:10.480
your your own instincts you know some of

01:33:10.480 --> 01:33:13.679
your own instincts about

01:33:13.679 --> 01:33:16.480
skepticism on one hand but that this may

01:33:16.480 --> 01:33:18.159
be the way to go

01:33:18.159 --> 01:33:19.199
um

01:33:19.199 --> 01:33:20.840
and

01:33:20.840 --> 01:33:24.080
um and

01:33:24.080 --> 01:33:25.920
i think that

01:33:25.920 --> 01:33:28.320
with clarity and confirmation i think

01:33:28.320 --> 01:33:32.400
that transformation is is possible

01:33:32.400 --> 01:33:34.000
but and so

01:33:34.000 --> 01:33:35.040
so

01:33:35.040 --> 01:33:38.159
if it's a powerful operating system then

01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:40.159
it'll get some convergence in some of

01:33:40.159 --> 01:33:42.560
these spaces and it'd be more more

01:33:42.560 --> 01:33:43.760
powerful

01:33:43.760 --> 01:33:46.960
but you know it's not complementary it's

01:33:46.960 --> 01:33:49.120
it's not meant to be complementary to

01:33:49.120 --> 01:33:50.560
everything

01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:52.719
um you know wilbur is like he starts

01:33:52.719 --> 01:33:54.880
with everybody is right and i guess i

01:33:54.880 --> 01:33:59.199
start with everybody everybody is wrong

01:33:59.280 --> 01:34:01.440
no but i think that

01:34:01.440 --> 01:34:03.920
everybody can fit in here it's just that

01:34:03.920 --> 01:34:07.040
we need to be clear on

01:34:07.040 --> 01:34:09.520
yeah how what's under the hood i think

01:34:09.520 --> 01:34:11.040
if we can have a

01:34:11.040 --> 01:34:13.920
an agreement on that

01:34:13.920 --> 01:34:15.360
that's why i was happy when you brought

01:34:15.360 --> 01:34:17.840
in lee brazington like finally someone

01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:20.320
who talks about the genres in a way that

01:34:20.320 --> 01:34:22.480
is

01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:24.880
not reductive but scientifically

01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:28.480
meaningful also you know

01:34:28.480 --> 01:34:29.760
so

01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:30.880
um

01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:32.639
yeah

01:34:32.639 --> 01:34:34.880
so thank you for letting give me the

01:34:34.880 --> 01:34:36.000
time to

01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:37.840
uh

01:34:37.840 --> 01:34:39.679
to share it and hopefully

01:34:39.679 --> 01:34:42.400
yeah it's hopefully it's useful

01:34:42.400 --> 01:34:44.960
yeah i think um just from feeling the

01:34:44.960 --> 01:34:47.040
room the field and the shares in the

01:34:47.040 --> 01:34:49.199
chat i think it was very very useful

01:34:49.199 --> 01:34:50.400
um so i'll make some closing

01:34:50.400 --> 01:34:52.239
announcements in a moment but daniel any

01:34:52.239 --> 01:34:55.119
closing uh words on your end

01:34:55.119 --> 01:34:56.960
no i'm just uh

01:34:56.960 --> 01:34:58.400
i guess i'll just like

01:34:58.400 --> 01:35:00.639
reassert my optimism i don't think this

01:35:00.639 --> 01:35:03.360
is a pessimistic take at all even though

01:35:03.360 --> 01:35:05.840
yes you know 80 of 90 of the world is

01:35:05.840 --> 01:35:07.600
coming from a me orientation maybe

01:35:07.600 --> 01:35:09.360
that's not good but i feel very

01:35:09.360 --> 01:35:12.239
optimistic after this session

01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:14.800
same yeah i feel feel i feel fired up

01:35:14.800 --> 01:35:17.840
with fumos i'm not gonna lie

01:35:17.840 --> 01:35:20.400
um so uh yeah you know and can i just

01:35:20.400 --> 01:35:23.119
say something whoops hello yeah

01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:25.840
oh oh yeah so the thing is like every

01:35:25.840 --> 01:35:28.639
time peter writes in one of his

01:35:28.639 --> 01:35:30.639
epic journals i don't give a about

01:35:30.639 --> 01:35:33.840
status he doesn't lead with his me

01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:36.639
you see this makes a difference nope

01:35:36.639 --> 01:35:39.679
this is not leading with your me

01:35:39.679 --> 01:35:41.520
and so you can notice i think this is

01:35:41.520 --> 01:35:43.199
also good for the model i have other

01:35:43.199 --> 01:35:44.880
things you can notice

01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:45.760
ah

01:35:45.760 --> 01:35:47.280
yeah

01:35:47.280 --> 01:35:49.440
that's a sign and of course now we

01:35:49.440 --> 01:35:51.600
understand why in some people it can be

01:35:51.600 --> 01:35:53.600
interpreted as narcissistic right now

01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:55.679
you see that wobble so how can you tell

01:35:55.679 --> 01:35:57.520
is he a narcissist or is he someone that

01:35:57.520 --> 01:35:59.360
leads with his eye

01:35:59.360 --> 01:36:01.440
these are important

01:36:01.440 --> 01:36:03.440
distinctions to make discernments that

01:36:03.440 --> 01:36:05.760
you can

01:36:06.400 --> 01:36:09.199
the knife edge of narcissism feel free

01:36:09.199 --> 01:36:12.239
to read my journals um my favorite uh

01:36:12.239 --> 01:36:14.239
stoic quote uh from epictetus i think

01:36:14.239 --> 01:36:15.679
it's daniel's too don't explain your

01:36:15.679 --> 01:36:18.480
philosophy embody it uh which nicely

01:36:18.480 --> 01:36:20.159
sets up skyler's session coming up at

01:36:20.159 --> 01:36:21.520
the stoa which you can check out the

01:36:21.520 --> 01:36:23.040
store.ca

01:36:23.040 --> 01:36:25.199
um so yeah we'll close out here uh

01:36:25.199 --> 01:36:27.280
awesome session thank you bonita thank

01:36:27.280 --> 01:36:28.800
you daniel thank you everyone from the

01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:31.440
pop-up school and beyond self-discipline

01:36:31.440 --> 01:36:33.360
do check out bonita's sub stack where

01:36:33.360 --> 01:36:35.040
you can sign up for the um

01:36:35.040 --> 01:36:37.040
pop-up school and yeah let's go

01:36:37.040 --> 01:36:38.560
get it let's go create the new world

01:36:38.560 --> 01:36:41.199
steal the culture heal it do what we

01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:43.920
have to do um so sending everyone lots

01:36:43.920 --> 01:36:45.920
of love and gratitude and we'll close

01:36:45.920 --> 01:36:47.280
out with uh

01:36:47.280 --> 01:36:52.199
our the most inspired theme song for psd



## Origins of the Self Part 2: From Mine and Me to I and We

00:00:01.660 --> 00:00:07.340
[Music]

00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:11.670
times

00:00:11.670 --> 00:00:15.990
[Music]

00:00:16.720 --> 00:00:18.560
all right

00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:20.880
welcome everyone

00:00:20.880 --> 00:00:23.439
to uh the stoa or the pop-up school at

00:00:23.439 --> 00:00:25.840
the store uh beneath and i haven't

00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:27.920
figured out what what technically where

00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:29.199
we're at exactly but this is a

00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:30.880
collaboration of the stone and a pop-up

00:00:30.880 --> 00:00:32.800
school so welcome

00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:35.360
and i'm calling in from a hostel in

00:00:35.360 --> 00:00:37.440
copenhagen that looks like a spaceship

00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:39.040
so if you can't hear me well there's

00:00:39.040 --> 00:00:40.879
weird colors in the background that is

00:00:40.879 --> 00:00:41.840
why

00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:44.239
and today's session is a follow-up

00:00:44.239 --> 00:00:46.160
session on this

00:00:46.160 --> 00:00:48.239
epic uh presentation benita did at the

00:00:48.239 --> 00:00:50.399
stoa called the origins of the self

00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:53.120
and this was pretty mind-blowing got a

00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:55.280
lot of views on on youtube and people

00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:57.039
were requesting let's let's have a few

00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:58.399
other follow-up sessions so we can dive

00:00:58.399 --> 00:00:59.920
deep into certain

00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:01.760
aspects of this model

00:01:01.760 --> 00:01:04.080
and so today's session is

00:01:04.080 --> 00:01:06.159
titled the origins itself part two from

00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:09.040
mine and me to i and we

00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:11.680
and how today's going to work uh benita

00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.360
is going to imagine share a screen again

00:01:13.360 --> 00:01:14.720
or share her thoughts

00:01:14.720 --> 00:01:17.280
and then we'll pivot to q a in the later

00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:19.439
half of uh the session we're here 90

00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:21.040
minutes in total

00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:22.960
so that being said

00:01:22.960 --> 00:01:25.040
i will give i need the

00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:26.560
screen share access

00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:27.600
and

00:01:27.600 --> 00:01:29.920
beneath that welcome back to

00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:32.159
the store

00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:37.040
hi hi everyone thanks for being here um

00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:39.600
i'm going to do a short presentation um

00:01:39.600 --> 00:01:43.680
this part of the model is um

00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:45.600
quite hand hand

00:01:45.600 --> 00:01:48.399
handable handable

00:01:48.399 --> 00:01:50.640
it's quite easy to understand

00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:51.759
um

00:01:51.759 --> 00:01:56.000
and um so can open up into a larger

00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.320
discussion i mean part of the reason why

00:01:58.320 --> 00:02:00.560
i'm so model oriented is

00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:03.759
because i think a simple model can help

00:02:03.759 --> 00:02:04.719
us have

00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:06.719
complex discussions without kind of

00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.679
losing our way so um

00:02:09.679 --> 00:02:14.239
yeah so let me just share my screen

00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:16.000
uh

00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.000
there's people in the waiting room is

00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:20.239
that my job

00:02:20.239 --> 00:02:22.640
um okay i'll let them in uh everyone in

00:02:22.640 --> 00:02:24.400
the waiting room so don't don't worry

00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:26.720
oh okay i didn't know why it was telling

00:02:26.720 --> 00:02:28.160
me

00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:30.800
okay so just to orient you what we're

00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:33.760
going to be talking about today is

00:02:33.760 --> 00:02:36.959
um the development along this line we

00:02:36.959 --> 00:02:39.360
looked at this presentation

00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.920
um the original origins of the self so

00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:43.760
we're going to look at this is a

00:02:43.760 --> 00:02:46.560
developmental progression these are

00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:48.480
different type of dynamics so we're

00:02:48.480 --> 00:02:51.280
going to look at from mine to me

00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.280
from mine and me

00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.920
this kind of primitive structure to

00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:57.920
i and we

00:02:57.920 --> 00:03:00.000
um we'll talk a little bit about this

00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.280
but here is

00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:02.879
what we're going to concentrate this

00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.519
move in identity

00:03:05.519 --> 00:03:07.360
and next time we're going to talk about

00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:09.599
some of these deeper processes that

00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:11.760
happen in the core self

00:03:11.760 --> 00:03:13.599
that are happening underneath this

00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:15.040
anyways

00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:16.879
but we're going to look basically at the

00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.599
identity project here okay

00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.879
does that does that make sense

00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:27.040
okay so um

00:03:27.040 --> 00:03:29.680
one of the things about um

00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:31.120
this model

00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:33.599
is that

00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.799
one of the reasons why i like

00:03:36.799 --> 00:03:42.159
this model is because it maps onto

00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:44.400
our animal nature it maps on to

00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:46.000
neuroscience

00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.040
and one of the things we're going to see

00:03:49.040 --> 00:03:51.840
just to keep in mind before we get into

00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:53.680
the the grid

00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:55.680
is that

00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:57.200
the mind

00:03:57.200 --> 00:03:58.720
is a

00:03:58.720 --> 00:04:02.000
identity structure that we inherit from

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.280
our animal nature it's associated with

00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.920
what are called egocentric

00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:10.400
perceptual processing

00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:11.840
systems in

00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:14.879
the animal body

00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:19.040
and so the like a dog has my bone my

00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:20.959
blanket

00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.680
and also my babies

00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.000
and these are

00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.040
these are subsystems that really

00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:30.880
um

00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:33.199
function semi-independently

00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:34.400
to

00:04:34.400 --> 00:04:35.759
the other

00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:37.759
perceptual processing systems which are

00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:40.720
called allocentric so allocentric

00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:41.840
is

00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:44.880
your processing information

00:04:44.880 --> 00:04:48.080
over about the world and how it relates

00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:50.320
the world how how objects that say in

00:04:50.320 --> 00:04:52.479
the world relate to each other

00:04:52.479 --> 00:04:55.680
and egocentric processing is how

00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.000
the objects in the world

00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.120
relate to me so egocentric processing is

00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:02.880
self-referential

00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:05.759
allocation processing is

00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:06.960
other

00:05:06.960 --> 00:05:10.160
uh referential other in world so these

00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.240
the mind and the me are egocentric

00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:14.400
self-referencing

00:05:14.400 --> 00:05:16.880
the switch here to the eye in the we

00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:18.759
is actually a

00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:20.320
psychobiological

00:05:20.320 --> 00:05:24.400
switch in your nervous system

00:05:24.400 --> 00:05:26.160
so that this can be

00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:27.360
um

00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.600
yeah some of this can be tracked

00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:32.639
uh in interesting ways

00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:34.639
we're not going to talk a lot about that

00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:37.199
um in the next grid but i just want to

00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:38.400
to say that

00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:39.520
these are

00:05:39.520 --> 00:05:43.440
this division is actually in the body

00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:45.440
there's an antecedent

00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:47.680
in the body in the animal perceptual

00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.960
system that allows this identity project

00:05:50.960 --> 00:05:53.280
to unfold the way it does

00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:58.160
so it's not merely socially constructed

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.240
okay

00:06:05.520 --> 00:06:10.160
i don't want that what this one

00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:13.280
okay

00:06:13.280 --> 00:06:14.080
so

00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:16.800
first of all i'm going to lay out some

00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.720
familiar terms some of you may be

00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:20.400
familiar with some of these

00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:22.800
developmental terms

00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.360
just so that you can you can see we're

00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:26.400
working

00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:28.960
uh with a heuristic that can map on to

00:06:28.960 --> 00:06:30.560
other models

00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.280
um so we have these three big categories

00:06:33.280 --> 00:06:37.680
growth subtle and causal i mean them

00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.360
mostly the way terrell fallon uses them

00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.360
and not the way the perennial philosophy

00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:45.600
uses them you may or may not be familiar

00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.280
with them

00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:49.680
this notion of tear

00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:52.800
so you have a pre-concrete level

00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:55.840
and the first concrete level

00:06:55.840 --> 00:06:58.639
uh first formal and second formal are

00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.599
part of the subtle levels

00:07:01.599 --> 00:07:04.800
a third is is post-formal

00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.039
um i'm just laying this out if you want

00:07:07.039 --> 00:07:09.120
to ask questions about it

00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.759
uh afterwards that's fine uh just to

00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.840
give some people some orientation if you

00:07:13.840 --> 00:07:16.000
know these terms

00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.639
and now we can look at the identity

00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:19.759
um

00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.280
so

00:07:21.280 --> 00:07:23.680
this um

00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.840
these terms come from

00:07:25.840 --> 00:07:27.039
um

00:07:27.039 --> 00:07:28.639
i forget his name i should have looked

00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:31.520
it up but it's it's uh it's from life

00:07:31.520 --> 00:07:34.160
these are common terms in the theory of

00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.080
lifespan development

00:07:36.080 --> 00:07:38.160
in the first term we have for the

00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.479
identity of the

00:07:40.479 --> 00:07:43.360
newborn or the child is actor

00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.120
this is an unfortunate term because

00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:49.919
usually when we say actor we think of

00:07:49.919 --> 00:07:52.960
someone who's consciously adopting a

00:07:52.960 --> 00:07:56.319
role in a persona but what this word

00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.440
means at this stage is merely

00:07:59.440 --> 00:08:02.400
that the identity is the the body's

00:08:02.400 --> 00:08:05.759
behavior the actions themselves are the

00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.599
identity it's a very

00:08:07.599 --> 00:08:11.039
uh primitive or very um

00:08:11.039 --> 00:08:14.800
early identity so they call it actor

00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.120
um but they don't mean

00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:17.919
like

00:08:17.919 --> 00:08:23.280
being a tv actor or putting on a persona

00:08:23.440 --> 00:08:24.319
now

00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:27.360
um the next um

00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.160
term they use is agent and

00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.320
what i want to say here is that all the

00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.719
way across this line

00:08:34.719 --> 00:08:37.440
something interesting psychologically is

00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.599
happening

00:08:39.599 --> 00:08:42.560
what drives this movement

00:08:42.560 --> 00:08:43.919
is that

00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:44.880
the

00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:48.320
child begins to see that they have many

00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.000
behaviors

00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.080
and psychologically

00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:52.959
that

00:08:52.959 --> 00:08:54.720
makes them nervous okay these are

00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.680
subconscious or unconscious processes

00:08:57.680 --> 00:09:00.480
um and so they begin to think well then

00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.120
who am i i must be the agent of these

00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:04.640
actions

00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:08.240
so all across this thing what happens is

00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:11.360
the stage you're at you see you start to

00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.360
be aware that it's a multiplicity

00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:16.399
and

00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.560
the psyche then wants to be whole

00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:23.680
so it creates a new structure which is

00:09:23.680 --> 00:09:25.519
the whole over

00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.560
the the parts and this happens all the

00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:31.200
way through until the last level

00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:31.920
so

00:09:31.920 --> 00:09:35.120
at first i'm just my behaviors at some

00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.080
point i'm aware that i have more

00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:40.320
different behaviors

00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.040
subconsciously unconsciously

00:09:43.040 --> 00:09:44.959
that makes the psyche nervous i know

00:09:44.959 --> 00:09:47.600
that's a strange just story phrase and

00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.080
so a new structure pops out i must be

00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.880
the agent so that's a single structure

00:09:52.880 --> 00:09:53.760
that

00:09:53.760 --> 00:09:56.640
is responsible for these actions

00:09:56.640 --> 00:09:58.640
so this is important dynamic to

00:09:58.640 --> 00:10:02.160
psychodynamic to understand

00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:05.640
in this model

00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.720
we can say what is driving this so and

00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:13.040
what drives the behaviors is impulse

00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.360
and at this point what drives the

00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.600
behavior is roles so the child realizes

00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:22.160
that they're the agent over the behavior

00:10:22.160 --> 00:10:24.480
agent over the behaviors

00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:26.560
and they're very sensitive to how they

00:10:26.560 --> 00:10:28.560
choose those behaviors and they're very

00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:31.680
sensitive to roles so they really start

00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:33.680
playing a lot of role playing they play

00:10:33.680 --> 00:10:35.680
mommy they play daddy

00:10:35.680 --> 00:10:37.600
they play doctor

00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:39.839
and they start to organize their

00:10:39.839 --> 00:10:41.120
identity

00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.839
around

00:10:43.839 --> 00:10:47.360
structuring these roles and a lot of it

00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.279
has to do with like

00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:50.640
uh

00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:52.720
you see a lot of it the role playing in

00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.120
terms of um

00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:56.720
choice of

00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:59.360
clothing so little girls get into all

00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:01.920
kinds of princess clothes and then when

00:11:01.920 --> 00:11:03.360
they're in their princess clothes they

00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.399
adopt the role of the princess this is

00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:08.880
this is that stage where role is very

00:11:08.880 --> 00:11:12.079
important now these don't go away anyone

00:11:12.079 --> 00:11:15.680
who's in a career and is their identity

00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:17.519
is stuck in that role

00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.160
or if you're a traditional housewife

00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:22.480
mother and your identity struck in that

00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:23.600
role

00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:24.880
you can

00:11:24.880 --> 00:11:27.920
you know this this very early

00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:30.320
psychological structure can play a

00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:32.480
significant part all the way through

00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.640
your adult life so

00:11:34.640 --> 00:11:37.279
at this stage that's all you have

00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:38.959
but it's important to understand that

00:11:38.959 --> 00:11:40.720
it's a primitive structure

00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:42.640
it's a limiting structure

00:11:42.640 --> 00:11:43.519
um

00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.079
these roles are are taken from

00:11:46.079 --> 00:11:48.000
conventional society

00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.560
they're in and we try to fit into

00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:55.440
the structure or as we borrow it from

00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.920
the definitions of society and

00:11:57.920 --> 00:12:00.079
eventually of course for most of us

00:12:00.079 --> 00:12:02.160
there comes a point where the roles

00:12:02.160 --> 00:12:04.880
don't don't work anymore and your kids

00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:06.880
leave the house and you're just tired of

00:12:06.880 --> 00:12:08.800
i've been a mother and a housewife all

00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:12.240
my life i've imagined myself at that so

00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.040
it is a limiting structure going into

00:12:15.040 --> 00:12:18.800
adulthood but it also can persist um

00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:20.399
quite strong in

00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:25.279
uh the way we we uh way we live our

00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.000
adult lives

00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.560
the psychological structure here is

00:12:30.560 --> 00:12:32.720
primary schema

00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:34.800
these are

00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:37.600
we'll look at this next week these are

00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.079
how we organize the world into self

00:12:40.079 --> 00:12:42.160
other and world we organize our

00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:44.560
experience into self other worlds very

00:12:44.560 --> 00:12:46.000
primary

00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.000
and here the psychological structure

00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.240
that begins to be

00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.880
developed in your subconscious are

00:12:52.880 --> 00:12:54.639
internal working models if you know

00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:56.959
anything about internal working models

00:12:56.959 --> 00:13:00.079
or internal family systems psychotherapy

00:13:00.079 --> 00:13:02.480
it's because basically your external

00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:06.079
reality about your agency and the roles

00:13:06.079 --> 00:13:08.639
and how they work start to become

00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.720
virtualized as little

00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.200
mobbies and daddies and children and

00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.279
policemen and doctors

00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:18.160
inside your psychological structure okay

00:13:18.160 --> 00:13:21.120
so you're you the way you're organizing

00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:24.880
the world uh becomes internalized

00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:26.800
um

00:13:26.800 --> 00:13:28.720
internally as

00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:29.680
you know

00:13:29.680 --> 00:13:32.720
imaginative structures about how reality

00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:33.519
is

00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:35.519
that your psyche has the same kind of

00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:36.800
structures

00:13:36.800 --> 00:13:40.639
that you're playing out in the world

00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:42.639
there is a strong critique about

00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:44.959
internal family systems

00:13:44.959 --> 00:13:48.240
in this model because this is also a

00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.959
very early or primitive structure

00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.600
the needs here are for safety

00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.079
the needs here are for belonging needs

00:14:00.079 --> 00:14:02.800
so you can see how this workup works out

00:14:02.800 --> 00:14:03.920
if i'm

00:14:03.920 --> 00:14:06.160
if i go to school

00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:08.959
and i'm start to be aware what the role

00:14:08.959 --> 00:14:10.880
i'm supposed to play

00:14:10.880 --> 00:14:12.480
i'm supposed to play

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.839
uh in front of the

00:14:14.839 --> 00:14:16.639
teacher um

00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:19.600
then i want to belong so i keep matching

00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:21.120
i keep

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.639
matching and

00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.000
creating the roles according to

00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.839
how can i belong in this

00:14:28.839 --> 00:14:30.560
situation

00:14:30.560 --> 00:14:33.199
so again you can see these are laid down

00:14:33.199 --> 00:14:36.320
early in life um but

00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.600
as we develop into adulthood

00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.760
they should play less and less a part of

00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:45.120
our psychological structure

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.440
the pronoun here is mine and the pronoun

00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.680
here is me

00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:52.079
if you have strong belonging needs

00:14:52.079 --> 00:14:55.680
you're very very aware of

00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:58.000
what how others are seeing you in the

00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:58.959
group

00:14:58.959 --> 00:15:01.920
how what your role is to play in order

00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:03.199
to belong

00:15:03.199 --> 00:15:06.560
um and you see this is externally driven

00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:07.680
because

00:15:07.680 --> 00:15:08.639
um

00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.920
if you move into a different group then

00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:14.000
there's no sense of authentic self

00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.839
you're just kind of code switching and

00:15:17.839 --> 00:15:21.040
being very uh sensitive to

00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:23.040
um

00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:25.199
the belonging needs and the roles that

00:15:25.199 --> 00:15:27.120
is

00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.000
required or fits

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.040
development level pre-conventional

00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:35.040
early conventional

00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:36.880
late conventional will just go across

00:15:36.880 --> 00:15:39.279
this post-conventional and then post

00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:40.320
formal

00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.959
okay so that sets out the

00:15:42.959 --> 00:15:46.800
early the early um

00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.040
the mine in the me

00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:51.040
and

00:15:51.040 --> 00:15:53.600
then we'll look at the eye

00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.199
and the and then we'll go on to the we

00:15:57.199 --> 00:15:59.839
all right so

00:15:59.839 --> 00:16:02.800
the subtle level begins to

00:16:02.800 --> 00:16:03.759
um

00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.480
what comes on in the subtle level is

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:07.600
more

00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:09.920
reflexivity

00:16:09.920 --> 00:16:11.519
more

00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.790
so first formal subtle level are

00:16:13.790 --> 00:16:15.120
[Music]

00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.120
things like self-awareness and

00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.040
reflexivity

00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:22.240
the ability to ask questions of oneself

00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.839
um the second formal has to do with more

00:16:25.839 --> 00:16:28.959
more kinds of cognitive complexity uh in

00:16:28.959 --> 00:16:30.800
a developmental level

00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:31.759
um

00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.839
and so

00:16:33.839 --> 00:16:35.199
that's just what we're gonna look at

00:16:35.199 --> 00:16:36.639
here

00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.240
okay so this is coming to the eye

00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:41.440
this is where

00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.399
you see the person again

00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.880
they see oh every time

00:16:46.880 --> 00:16:48.800
every time i'm in a different situation

00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:50.720
i roll switch

00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.079
so i can be

00:16:52.079 --> 00:16:54.880
many different roles all right so they

00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:58.399
they and and but this is the killer here

00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.639
this happens comes around usually at

00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:02.800
puberty because

00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:05.199
what you realize because the reflexivity

00:17:05.199 --> 00:17:08.319
here is that the agent itself

00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.199
is duplicitous so for example when

00:17:11.199 --> 00:17:12.799
you're with your

00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:14.400
friends your brother you know i feel

00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.559
like men are with hanging out their male

00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:18.480
friends and women are with their

00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.120
women friends they feel themselves a

00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:22.319
certain way

00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.280
and they can role play as that agent but

00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:28.240
then usually around puberty

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.400
when you start to

00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.679
work with the other relate to the

00:17:33.679 --> 00:17:35.679
other sex

00:17:35.679 --> 00:17:38.160
or the other gender depending upon what

00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:40.799
what situation we're looking at

00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.120
you realize that the agent themselves is

00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:46.559
changing like the thing that's that's

00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:48.799
creating the roles and being sensitive

00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.400
itself changes and so now

00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.679
you have to create a new psychological

00:17:55.679 --> 00:17:58.240
structure so now i'm the author

00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.720
of the agents

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.240
who structure the behaviors and this is

00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:05.280
um

00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:08.400
right around usually around puberty

00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.720
because of this dynamic between

00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.200
male and female and keegan's work also

00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:14.799
you'll see that that

00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.240
that um

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.400
that difference between

00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.120
um i mean literally what happens in your

00:18:21.120 --> 00:18:23.919
body you feel like a different person

00:18:23.919 --> 00:18:25.440
um

00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.200
creates this need to have this

00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:29.679
psychological structure um so here's

00:18:29.679 --> 00:18:33.120
where scripts become uh important you

00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:36.160
you're starting to take on

00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:37.440
one way of

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.240
showing up in the world but

00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.559
scripts are very important so

00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:43.679
um

00:18:43.679 --> 00:18:47.440
you know social media is all about this

00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.400
um

00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.600
what you say how do you say it uh what

00:18:51.600 --> 00:18:53.360
language you're using

00:18:53.360 --> 00:18:55.760
in your peer group you'll have special

00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:58.960
languages special means

00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:00.799
and so

00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.039
scripts are very important here

00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:05.360
the story

00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:07.919
the story you tell about yourself this

00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:10.880
is all a very storied

00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:12.480
kind of

00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.600
phase

00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:15.600
and what's important here your need is

00:19:15.600 --> 00:19:18.000
for biographical coherence

00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.559
so you start to have a justification

00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.360
system of my parents were like this and

00:19:23.360 --> 00:19:25.360
when i grew up this happened and then

00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:27.280
this happened and this was formative and

00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:29.360
then i went to school and then i became

00:19:29.360 --> 00:19:32.080
this so because you're allowing for much

00:19:32.080 --> 00:19:32.880
more

00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.760
multiplicity in who you've been over the

00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:38.640
lifetime it's very important for you to

00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.760
hold this biograph biography this

00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:45.440
coherence this biographical coherence

00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:46.240
um

00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.240
and the

00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.720
it's a need just like the belonging

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.720
needs

00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:54.400
and

00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:55.360
it

00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:58.799
as all needs it tends to

00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:00.400
constrain us

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.120
to one story

00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:05.679
one long story of who we are we've

00:20:05.679 --> 00:20:07.360
always been this way

00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:08.720
um

00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:09.919
and so

00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:11.280
many people

00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:14.159
um are still i would say

00:20:14.159 --> 00:20:17.440
this is a big stage a lot of people are

00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:18.320
still

00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:22.159
in this you see in society everybody's

00:20:22.159 --> 00:20:25.039
trying to have like the long view of who

00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.240
they are as a black woman or transgender

00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.039
or something this need to have this

00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:32.559
script or this

00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.360
this coherent story about how how you

00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:36.559
got here

00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.559
uh to make sense sense of things

00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.000
i'm gonna say this for peter because

00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.960
what's really interesting if you journal

00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.039
if you're if you're really

00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:50.240
um

00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.440
uh

00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.039
watching yourself create your

00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.200
biographical coherence you realize how

00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.120
incoherent it is

00:20:57.120 --> 00:20:58.559
right so

00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.520
um you realize well that's how you know

00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:03.679
i read those that's how i was last year

00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:06.159
and now i'm this year and there's no

00:21:06.159 --> 00:21:08.320
real thread like

00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:11.440
and this will make the psyche nervous

00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:12.720
because

00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.440
this is what you've been holding on to

00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.600
and i have this cool thing i'm going to

00:21:17.600 --> 00:21:20.080
show you about the nervousness of this

00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:22.080
face this is an interview

00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:24.720
that it's quite old that jeff salzman

00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.600
did with suzanne cook gerder so

00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:31.679
where she's talking about this phase um

00:21:31.679 --> 00:21:34.880
what do i have to do here

00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:37.679
i have to optimize for computer sound so

00:21:37.679 --> 00:21:38.880
hold on

00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.919
i'm going to stop my share

00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:47.360
uh shear sound

00:21:53.919 --> 00:21:58.120
so look at this one first

00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.000
whatever i've relied on so far suddenly

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.480
it's somewhat suspicious and then to

00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.400
come to an integration and say that's

00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:09.280
fine

00:22:09.280 --> 00:22:11.760
that's one of the many ways of how i can

00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:13.520
be

00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:16.000
and so when you're doing that you're

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.400
actually operating from a space where

00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.360
you can see your own perspectives yes

00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:23.600
and where you can enter the eagle and

00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:25.600
say okay i'm playing this game or that

00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:27.840
game or or i'm

00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:30.799
witnessing to the games i'm playing

00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.600
and also the genuine efforts and the

00:22:33.600 --> 00:22:35.760
struggles and all of that and there's a

00:22:35.760 --> 00:22:38.000
little bit of this thrilling discovery

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.159
isn't it the first time yes certainly

00:22:40.159 --> 00:22:43.200
under threat and also a disturbing one

00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.480
because what now what can you stand on

00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:48.640
in the post-modernism you start

00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.320
questioning some of the cultural

00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:53.039
assumptions but not yet the fundamental

00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.039
you still believe that with language and

00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.400
enough

00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.559
methods and all of that you will figure

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.320
out what's going on you're saying in

00:23:00.320 --> 00:23:03.200
postmodern yes but just more complex

00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.280
than we thought but now you say there's

00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:07.039
nothing i can do

00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.440
there's really nothing to hold on so now

00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.760
what

00:23:13.840 --> 00:23:16.720
and then when you watch automatically

00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.200
can't be held that's the evolutionary

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.000
spirit you have transcendent moments and

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.159
then you say ah there's something else

00:23:24.159 --> 00:23:25.440
right

00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.240
something totally else a new if you want

00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:28.960
a

00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.640
theoretical new paradigm

00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:34.720
before it was differentiation

00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:37.360
integration sort of in a very regular

00:23:37.360 --> 00:23:40.080
pattern more and more complex higher and

00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:42.320
higher levels of perspectives

00:23:42.320 --> 00:23:47.080
and now it's something totally different

00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.480
okay so the first one is she's

00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.440
describing this what can you hold on to

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.640
this awareness that the story you can't

00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:00.960
language is not going to

00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.200
anchor you anymore

00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:04.960
um i shouldn't have showed the second

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.279
clip the second clip is when we moved to

00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:08.640
the causal

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.919
um

00:24:09.919 --> 00:24:12.960
so but but it was one conversation so

00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.039
this so now what right even i can't hold

00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:18.600
on to even the

00:24:18.600 --> 00:24:21.120
autobiographical coherence

00:24:21.120 --> 00:24:22.159
um

00:24:22.159 --> 00:24:24.159
so uh

00:24:24.159 --> 00:24:27.120
that's where were

00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:34.240
okay blast shoot

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.640
so now what i can't even

00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.320
all right so we'll go back to that so

00:24:42.320 --> 00:24:44.000
um

00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.600
where are we yeah this isn't the best

00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:51.679
way to do this sorry about

00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.760
yeah so the autobiographical coherence

00:24:57.760 --> 00:25:00.960
we start to see that she said we enter

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.279
into the ego and play this game or that

00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:04.720
game and this is

00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.039
is that it's thrilling but there's a

00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:10.400
threat and so now what can i hold on to

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.720
um

00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:16.080
this is where you start to see and if

00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:18.159
you're doing work

00:25:18.159 --> 00:25:20.240
in these kind of groups or communities

00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:22.960
or if you're working with clients

00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.039
this word self comes in true self unique

00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.080
self authentic self

00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:32.559
there's a switch

00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:33.919
because the

00:25:33.919 --> 00:25:37.120
person is starting to see this process

00:25:37.120 --> 00:25:41.679
has not is is part of a larger system

00:25:41.679 --> 00:25:44.240
and they can they're interested in like

00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.559
the jungian notion of self you get to

00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:50.240
switch in pronouns from the eye

00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:53.679
or or the ability to understand

00:25:53.679 --> 00:25:55.520
that

00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:57.120
i can say i

00:25:57.120 --> 00:25:59.120
and then i can say self and that there

00:25:59.120 --> 00:26:02.000
are two different ways of identifying

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.880
with reality

00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.360
this doesn't happen to everyone in our

00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:09.840
in our society doesn't it doesn't make

00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:12.159
sense to people who have not reached

00:26:12.159 --> 00:26:13.679
this stage

00:26:13.679 --> 00:26:16.000
um

00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:19.200
so here is what we call self-author we

00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:20.159
become

00:26:20.159 --> 00:26:23.200
we want to the self that is selfing that

00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:25.520
is creating these structures

00:26:25.520 --> 00:26:27.919
can i authorize it do i have the

00:26:27.919 --> 00:26:31.520
authority to work on it these are large

00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:33.840
self-improvement

00:26:33.840 --> 00:26:36.880
momentum here

00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:40.080
um then driver self-actualization what

00:26:40.080 --> 00:26:42.960
is what is the capacity of this self

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.600
what is its true capacity what what is

00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:48.400
its true potential

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.200
um you start to be a system seeker this

00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.840
is more of a cognitive approach

00:26:53.840 --> 00:26:56.080
but you understand the self is embedded

00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:57.520
in

00:26:57.520 --> 00:26:59.919
in these larger systems yes it's been

00:26:59.919 --> 00:27:01.919
embedded in the family the families in

00:27:01.919 --> 00:27:03.039
the culture

00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.240
the self is

00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.679
itself a part of a whole it's a whole of

00:27:07.679 --> 00:27:11.120
a part it starts people start to whereas

00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:14.240
biographical coherence is rather linear

00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.880
there's this kind of tumbling effect of

00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.279
systems upon systems the way

00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.919
uh people talk about

00:27:21.919 --> 00:27:23.360
um

00:27:23.360 --> 00:27:26.080
their psychological structures

00:27:26.080 --> 00:27:27.520
um

00:27:27.520 --> 00:27:29.919
and you hear this need for people want

00:27:29.919 --> 00:27:33.039
to be authentic

00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:34.960
so

00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.000
this is a key

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.120
indicator people will start to search

00:27:41.120 --> 00:27:44.080
well then who i am authentically who who

00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:46.480
is the authentic self

00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:47.360
um

00:27:47.360 --> 00:27:49.600
the questions here become

00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:51.279
large

00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.399
systems thinking but also

00:27:54.399 --> 00:27:55.919
they turned more toward what we would

00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:58.080
call spirituality because the question

00:27:58.080 --> 00:27:59.600
is

00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:00.880
not

00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.120
you know easily just

00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:05.840
described or it doesn't have an easy

00:28:05.840 --> 00:28:09.840
answer and the caution here is that

00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:11.279
this is both

00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:12.960
a beautiful move

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:16.080
but it's also a trap

00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:18.799
because you notice this move also is

00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.240
looking for the one thing i am the one

00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.720
true authentic self

00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.960
and it's the same trap eventually you

00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:27.760
see

00:28:27.760 --> 00:28:30.320
it's the same trap i mean it's a

00:28:30.320 --> 00:28:33.600
beautiful phase don't get me wrong

00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:37.520
but as a teacher or a mentor

00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:40.320
i just lay back and see the same trap i

00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:43.279
mean you're not going to say it's a trap

00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.880
but you don't want to get pulled into

00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:49.679
sending people on the project to find

00:28:49.679 --> 00:28:53.200
who their authentic self is

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.360
because it's the same trap you watch the

00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:58.799
unfolding it's the same pickle at a much

00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:03.840
much more complex psychological stage

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.120
and then that's the second video she's

00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:09.120
saying ah

00:29:09.120 --> 00:29:11.440
then something happens it's totally

00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.360
different than all the others and the

00:29:13.360 --> 00:29:16.080
others there's differentiation

00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:18.720
and then you you want to include that by

00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:20.720
another structure and then that

00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:22.640
structure differentiates and you want to

00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.520
include but this state she says

00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:28.799
is totally something else

00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:32.720
and that's the move into the causal

00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.640
and we'll look at that

00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:40.559
which again this doesn't work because

00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:41.600
okay

00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:42.880
and so

00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:44.080
um

00:29:44.080 --> 00:29:45.840
this so

00:29:45.840 --> 00:29:50.559
this move into the causal is um

00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.240
very rare

00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.799
i mean most people are here

00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:56.720
most people work

00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.399
in this in their social and workplace

00:30:00.399 --> 00:30:02.480
and

00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.840
if they're talking to their psychiatrist

00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:06.880
they're

00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.000
they're they move into this territory

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.320
um

00:30:12.399 --> 00:30:15.520
this we probably know more people in

00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:17.919
between these two because

00:30:17.919 --> 00:30:21.520
of uh the kind of interest we have this

00:30:21.520 --> 00:30:22.960
um

00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.799
this category is is quite rare

00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:27.919
um

00:30:27.919 --> 00:30:29.679
so

00:30:29.679 --> 00:30:31.360
let me see if i can

00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:33.600
alright so what's interesting about this

00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:35.600
category is

00:30:35.600 --> 00:30:38.799
you start to use the pronoun it it is

00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:41.039
working through me or god is working

00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.440
through me or spirit is working through

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:45.840
me or nature is working through me

00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:47.520
there's this sense

00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:50.399
of

00:30:50.399 --> 00:30:52.960
it-ness i mean not like an object an

00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.120
inanimate object but you'll start to

00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:56.640
hear people

00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.039
the cell the pronoun self has a little

00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.039
bit of that but you're still identified

00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.720
with the cell in this move you have this

00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:07.279
this movement toward

00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:09.200
this larger

00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:12.080
process the universe is working through

00:31:12.080 --> 00:31:14.320
me this whole process has been the

00:31:14.320 --> 00:31:16.320
universe

00:31:16.320 --> 00:31:18.480
expressing itself through

00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.399
me and you see this move toward the it

00:31:22.399 --> 00:31:25.200
or spirit nature you'll hear it in your

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:26.320
clients

00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:28.880
um it's the beginning it's the move from

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.080
this authenticity who am i authentically

00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:34.960
to i don't know what it is doing what

00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.399
what is it's just it is doing me

00:31:38.399 --> 00:31:42.399
nature spirit god

00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:44.480
uh

00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:46.480
i don't know why i did this way so

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:50.000
um the identity is like a participant or

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.039
an instrument or a vehicle

00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.080
or

00:31:54.080 --> 00:31:57.919
you know again that this this really

00:31:57.919 --> 00:31:58.720
uh

00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:01.679
this move is very characteristic

00:32:01.679 --> 00:32:04.000
um

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:06.480
the you have this driver's purpose a

00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.480
sense of contribution

00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:11.279
you notice in this category that all the

00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:13.440
other previous categories seem quite

00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:15.679
narcissistic

00:32:15.679 --> 00:32:17.279
um it's always in all the other

00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.440
categories it's always been about you

00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.799
and now it's not about you even

00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:24.000
self-actualization is seen

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.200
comes to be seen as about me and

00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.440
this in this category is like wow it's

00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.279
never been about me

00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.720
it's kind of a mind bog this category

00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:36.880
um i don't know the psychological

00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.720
structures the structures really aren't

00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.440
there anymore um so just open awareness

00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.760
um

00:32:46.159 --> 00:32:47.679
um

00:32:47.679 --> 00:32:50.320
more open participation open awareness

00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:52.320
things aren't held onto

00:32:52.320 --> 00:32:54.960
um you're not tying up weaving knots of

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.000
psychological meaning

00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.159
so

00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.399
they they remain transitional somebody

00:33:02.399 --> 00:33:05.760
asks me my biography i can recite it but

00:33:05.760 --> 00:33:07.440
i don't feel

00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.399
attached to it anymore so i can go in

00:33:10.399 --> 00:33:11.279
and

00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:13.200
play these games

00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:14.240
but if

00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.559
not i don't really find them living in

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.320
my psyche

00:33:18.320 --> 00:33:20.399
um and i don't know

00:33:20.399 --> 00:33:21.840
the need is

00:33:21.840 --> 00:33:22.960
freedom

00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.519
freedom from

00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.279
the burden of a lot of identity

00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:30.880
freedom for

00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:33.279
having your energy for purpose

00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:36.519
and contribution

00:33:44.320 --> 00:33:47.200
okay and we'll just end with so these

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.840
are the different eyes

00:33:49.840 --> 00:33:51.840
um

00:33:51.840 --> 00:33:52.960
um

00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.360
we'll just look at so any all of these

00:33:55.360 --> 00:33:56.799
eyes

00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.799
move into wheeze

00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.000
we spaces but of course the character of

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:03.519
the wii space

00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.720
is going to be heavily shaped

00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.200
by the identity

00:34:09.200 --> 00:34:14.000
project of the people in the we space

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.280
this is very important to understand

00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:18.480
um

00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.679
it's a it's not possible to get around

00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.000
that

00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:27.839
um so

00:34:27.839 --> 00:34:31.359
um here are our pronouns up here and

00:34:31.359 --> 00:34:34.000
here are the we or the collective

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.800
streams the the wiis here

00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.599
are um

00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.159
collective world building

00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.440
collective agency right so true we's are

00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:47.760
units of agency

00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:51.440
they have a world-building function

00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:52.879
and

00:34:52.879 --> 00:34:55.440
i put this on a

00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:56.800
cultural

00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:59.119
a cultural timeline because the

00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.240
collective is a cultural phenomenon not

00:35:02.240 --> 00:35:06.880
an individual identity phenomenon

00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:09.280
so in the pre-modern this is hannah

00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:11.359
arendt's work here

00:35:11.359 --> 00:35:13.839
in the pre-modern era

00:35:13.839 --> 00:35:16.720
our world building activity is our labor

00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:20.560
very similar just just our behaviors

00:35:20.560 --> 00:35:22.480
the characteristic

00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:25.920
is how we are the same nature's rhythms

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.880
so the pre-modern cultures

00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.920
the collectively uh emphasize how we are

00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:35.119
the same the rhythms of nature birth and

00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.520
death procreation

00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:38.560
um

00:35:38.560 --> 00:35:41.119
this is the world building we

00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:44.440
of the pre-modern

00:35:44.720 --> 00:35:46.560
era

00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:48.960
and the self-structure in the collective

00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:50.000
here

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.200
is constituted by the collective

00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:55.520
that the they are born into a certain

00:35:55.520 --> 00:35:58.040
reality your cell structure is

00:35:58.040 --> 00:36:00.480
pre-constituted by the collective so

00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.160
that would be a pre-modern we

00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:06.240
in the modern era

00:36:06.240 --> 00:36:10.720
honored saw this move from labor to work

00:36:10.720 --> 00:36:14.160
which is a critique of um she used it as

00:36:14.160 --> 00:36:17.359
a critique of marxism which um

00:36:17.359 --> 00:36:19.520
didn't really perceive this move into

00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:21.599
the modern era

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:24.160
and this emphasizes how we are different

00:36:24.160 --> 00:36:26.560
so we look at like great architects

00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:27.680
built

00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:30.240
you know built rome and

00:36:30.240 --> 00:36:31.599
um

00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:33.599
in the in the modern era you could have

00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.440
a handful of men

00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.880
uh uh build the uh educate higher

00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.359
educational systems of the whole nation

00:36:41.359 --> 00:36:43.359
a handful of men like the carnegies

00:36:43.359 --> 00:36:46.720
build a banking system handful of men so

00:36:46.720 --> 00:36:49.680
the modern was the era of work not how

00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:52.960
we are the same but how we are different

00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:56.160
and we uh imagine the self within this

00:36:56.160 --> 00:36:58.480
collective as the locus of agency that

00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:00.640
constitutes the collective

00:37:00.640 --> 00:37:03.440
that these great men

00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.280
and you know why i'm saying men all the

00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.640
time um can lay out

00:37:08.640 --> 00:37:11.040
the fundamental blueprint that the

00:37:11.040 --> 00:37:13.359
culture then that will constitute the

00:37:13.359 --> 00:37:15.920
culture this is a huge

00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.079
uh shift in

00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.280
the notion of collective agency

00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.440
now the modern world is over

00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:25.680
it's very very difficult for a handful

00:37:25.680 --> 00:37:28.000
of people to institute anything in the

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.520
world without huge amount of pushback

00:37:31.520 --> 00:37:34.800
we get into the post-modern world where

00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.960
the world building activities action and

00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.119
what we mean here is like activist

00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:40.320
action

00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.240
uh speech acts

00:37:42.240 --> 00:37:43.119
um

00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:44.880
and activism

00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.000
um

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:48.160
the characteristic is how can we make a

00:37:48.160 --> 00:37:50.480
difference so how can we make a

00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:51.599
difference

00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.599
and the self-structure is the locus of

00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:55.920
agency that challenges that changes the

00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.079
collective doesn't constitute the

00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.400
collective that's over

00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.079
for the post-modernist but how can we

00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:03.760
change the collective and so you have

00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:08.480
the rise of activism as a collective we

00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:10.960
now going into the uh and so here this

00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:12.960
is late conventional eye

00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.680
it's associated with autobiographic

00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:17.760
graphical needs and scripts and you can

00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.359
see just how that falls into activism

00:38:21.359 --> 00:38:23.599
and a lot of what we're seeing today

00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:25.599
it's based on this

00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:28.400
self-structure

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:32.720
who am i i'm the daughter of slaves blah

00:38:32.720 --> 00:38:36.240
blah blah blah blah autographic and this

00:38:36.240 --> 00:38:37.760
turns into

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.359
trying to make a case to have certain

00:38:39.359 --> 00:38:42.240
kinds of action

00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:44.640
then we move into the post-conventional

00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:46.560
we're going to call that the meta modern

00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:48.400
age

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.079
now we're beyond

00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.160
hannah arendt's work but i just call it

00:38:52.160 --> 00:38:54.240
meta action

00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:57.839
and now we see a switch into how can i

00:38:57.839 --> 00:38:59.680
make a difference

00:38:59.680 --> 00:39:00.480
okay

00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:02.640
so there is this tension between

00:39:02.640 --> 00:39:05.200
postmodern and modern metamodern the

00:39:05.200 --> 00:39:06.560
postmodernists think that the

00:39:06.560 --> 00:39:09.280
metamodernists are naval gazers because

00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:10.560
they're not

00:39:10.560 --> 00:39:13.200
into trying to change culture

00:39:13.200 --> 00:39:15.839
as a collective

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.079
so you have to switch back to how can i

00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:20.640
make a difference

00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:22.320
and the self-structure begins to be

00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:23.680
understood as the locus of

00:39:23.680 --> 00:39:26.320
transformation that involves the self

00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:30.800
so this is a big part of game b

00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:31.760
and

00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.240
the move away from this activist

00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:36.400
politics kind of

00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.760
uh world building action

00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.119
um and switches back into

00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:44.480
um

00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.960
toward the self trying to understand the

00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.560
self how can i self author myself such

00:39:50.560 --> 00:39:55.119
that ev that evolves other selves

00:39:55.200 --> 00:39:56.800
and in this last

00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.160
formation i don't know what do you want

00:39:58.160 --> 00:39:59.280
to call it

00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:03.040
integral it has gebser thought of it um

00:40:03.040 --> 00:40:05.040
there's a more of what wants to emerge

00:40:05.040 --> 00:40:06.880
is this switch to

00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.000
i'm not in charge can i listen can i be

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.480
sensitive to what wants to emerge and we

00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.960
begin to see the self-structure as the

00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:17.119
locus of transformation that evolves the

00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:19.440
collective doesn't change the collective

00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:21.599
doesn't constitute the collective we

00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:23.760
don't know where the collective is going

00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:26.160
but can a person be a force of

00:40:26.160 --> 00:40:28.319
transformation such that the collective

00:40:28.319 --> 00:40:30.640
shifts and this would be people like

00:40:30.640 --> 00:40:33.440
gandhi and martin luther king

00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.760
just by the sense of their presence

00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.720
things shift around them they're not

00:40:38.720 --> 00:40:41.359
going in and constituting

00:40:41.359 --> 00:40:42.800
it and

00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.440
um and people that have that kind of

00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.119
transformational self

00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:49.359
usually

00:40:49.359 --> 00:40:52.160
or the model predicts are in this

00:40:52.160 --> 00:40:55.280
relationship with spirit or purpose that

00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:56.640
is

00:40:56.640 --> 00:40:57.839
not a

00:40:57.839 --> 00:41:01.560
individual identity

00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:08.880
so hopefully that

00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.720
helps make meaning and i should post

00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:14.400
should post the uh

00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.800
the grid somewhere

00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.400
um

00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:21.440
yeah does that does that help in any way

00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.560
does it does it help organize some of

00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:26.079
uh

00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.880
this complex territory

00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:31.040
of where we are and

00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:33.280
where we've been

00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.000
yeah that was uh super super helpful uh

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.560
seeing that chart uh and laying it out

00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:40.960
uh it's quite informative um

00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:42.240
and perhaps you can share your

00:41:42.240 --> 00:41:43.760
powerpoint so we can kind of post it

00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:46.960
with the video in the pop-up school

00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.920
so you call it pivot to some questions

00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:51.440
yeah yeah

00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:53.520
um so either put up your hand or just

00:41:53.520 --> 00:41:55.280
put some thing in the chat and i'll call

00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.119
on you um

00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:00.000
i guess my first question is the whole

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.319
like you know the phenomenology of the

00:42:02.319 --> 00:42:04.240
wii house experience through each kind

00:42:04.240 --> 00:42:05.839
of identity structure

00:42:05.839 --> 00:42:07.920
and uh maybe you can talk about that a

00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:09.839
little bit uh and then the whole wee

00:42:09.839 --> 00:42:11.839
space movement how does this fit into it

00:42:11.839 --> 00:42:13.280
like call it all the interest objective

00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.440
practices that we are playing without

00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.040
the stowa like collective presencing

00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:19.680
circling how does it inform

00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:20.560
um

00:42:20.560 --> 00:42:22.000
you know us to get more sophisticated

00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.520
with certain kind of identity structures

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.079
yeah it's interesting i mean

00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.720
you could do a wee space or a

00:42:31.720 --> 00:42:34.960
psychotechnology workshop on identity

00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:36.319
structures

00:42:36.319 --> 00:42:37.440
the the

00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.400
i mean i think that there is power in

00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.720
seeing a model like this

00:42:42.720 --> 00:42:45.599
but again it's descriptive you know it's

00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.560
we have to be careful because if we try

00:42:48.560 --> 00:42:51.040
to learn ourselves into a new identity

00:42:51.040 --> 00:42:53.920
structure it's it's not necessarily

00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:55.119
lived

00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:56.960
a lived thing

00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:59.839
right so we have for example a bunch of

00:42:59.839 --> 00:43:03.440
you know you you you learn what you know

00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:06.000
teal is and then you start to play the

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.520
role of teal

00:43:07.520 --> 00:43:10.480
it's a role structure

00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:12.960
right and you show up as teal amongst

00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:14.640
other groups of people who want to be

00:43:14.640 --> 00:43:17.760
teal and from my perspective you're in

00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:20.880
the me and roll identity

00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.359
of teal right

00:43:23.359 --> 00:43:24.960
does that does that make sense what i

00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:26.480
just said it's a very it's a very

00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:29.359
primitive structure and you would say in

00:43:29.359 --> 00:43:31.839
my opinion i would say no progress at

00:43:31.839 --> 00:43:33.359
all

00:43:33.359 --> 00:43:35.119
in fact

00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.760
a case can be made

00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.440
that

00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:40.800
a lot of

00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.240
what we track in developmental theory

00:43:44.240 --> 00:43:46.160
especially like in spiral dynamics when

00:43:46.160 --> 00:43:48.400
they're tracking your behaviors is

00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:49.760
really just

00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:51.280
someone moving

00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:53.200
from role structure to role structure to

00:43:53.200 --> 00:43:54.720
role structure

00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:57.760
with bigger benefits or status in a

00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.440
certain culture

00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:00.800
but

00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.000
if you're related to that role

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.960
along that pipeline that is served right

00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:09.680
so if i move

00:44:09.680 --> 00:44:12.240
like education higher education does

00:44:12.240 --> 00:44:14.640
that wants to move me from

00:44:14.640 --> 00:44:16.960
a farmer to

00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:18.400
a coder

00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.319
and to be coder

00:44:20.319 --> 00:44:22.480
that's not really a move

00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:24.480
uh that's not really progress if you're

00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.160
just in the identity role of a coder

00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:31.599
and so we have to be careful

00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:32.400
that

00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.839
the form

00:44:33.839 --> 00:44:35.599
uh

00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:37.680
the person's taking

00:44:37.680 --> 00:44:39.680
is not just more sophisticated because

00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:41.440
it's been laid out

00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:43.280
uh it could be

00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.520
literally a primitive role

00:44:45.520 --> 00:44:47.680
a primitive um

00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:51.440
that primitive structure of agent enroll

00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.319
curiously enough

00:44:54.319 --> 00:44:55.839
it's also the

00:44:55.839 --> 00:44:58.480
stage at which internal working models

00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.680
are very important and curiously enough

00:45:01.680 --> 00:45:04.079
a lot of people encircling really like

00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.760
to work with internal working models

00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:09.359
so i kind of

00:45:09.359 --> 00:45:12.960
kind of interesting to me how

00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.480
predictable

00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.720
the model is across some

00:45:16.720 --> 00:45:17.720
some

00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:19.920
psychotechnologies it doesn't mean it's

00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.040
not important it's important but

00:45:23.040 --> 00:45:24.640
um

00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:26.640
it's certainly not very

00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:29.920
sophisticated along along the path

00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:30.960
of

00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.240
uh yeah into like a meadow modern or a

00:45:34.240 --> 00:45:36.480
meta action

00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.480
um

00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:41.760
and the other uh question i had um

00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:43.839
so i had this coffee with this danish

00:45:43.839 --> 00:45:46.240
philosopher who wrote the nordic secret

00:45:46.240 --> 00:45:48.720
uh the other day uh leanne rachel

00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:51.119
anderson yeah she talked about the um

00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:52.480
you know the build-on and it kind of

00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:54.319
maps over the framework that shoes is

00:45:54.319 --> 00:45:55.599
there like just like self-governing

00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:56.480
itself and there's like the

00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:57.760
self-authoring

00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:59.920
um and there's like a system and she

00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.520
wants you know the schooling to have

00:46:01.520 --> 00:46:03.280
that and it kind of lost that that kind

00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:04.880
of educational structure that affords

00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.359
people to move across the spectrum

00:46:07.359 --> 00:46:08.160
um

00:46:08.160 --> 00:46:09.839
but it's still happening in an informal

00:46:09.839 --> 00:46:11.839
way and there's just kind of like points

00:46:11.839 --> 00:46:13.920
that people have sort of like the what

00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:15.520
i'll call that authenticity uh

00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:17.520
authenticity gap where there's like the

00:46:17.520 --> 00:46:18.880
societal role is that kind of

00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:20.400
interfering with what's

00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:22.240
you know deep calling uh and then

00:46:22.240 --> 00:46:24.240
perhaps another point is like the

00:46:24.240 --> 00:46:26.079
authenticity trap where there's like

00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.000
just like this kind of longing for the

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.760
to go beyond the self and find the you

00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.319
know kind of connect with the wii um

00:46:32.319 --> 00:46:34.720
so i'm curious what if you can kind of

00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:36.160
talk about those points and how to

00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:37.839
overcome them or kind of release the

00:46:37.839 --> 00:46:39.440
tension there or feel into the attention

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:41.119
to get to the next

00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.839
identity stage

00:46:45.359 --> 00:46:48.480
yeah i would say that

00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:50.560
the you know this the self is going to

00:46:50.560 --> 00:46:52.240
do what it's

00:46:52.240 --> 00:46:56.800
what it does create structures um

00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:59.440
but i would say that

00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:02.000
the focus should be on

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.480
the developmental field that the self is

00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:05.520
in

00:47:05.520 --> 00:47:08.880
i mean and so for example

00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:10.560
um

00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:12.800
uh

00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:16.800
well then of course you have how you're

00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:18.400
gonna change society you know it's like

00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:21.440
a back and forth you know if if

00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.240
um i think where we're at right now i

00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:26.720
think what lena's work is in metamodin

00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:27.920
work is

00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:32.160
um primarily work on saying

00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:34.559
you know we want to evolve the self so

00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.880
that the world building activities of

00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.119
the leaders

00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:42.000
are structure structure

00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:45.599
new ways of being human

00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:47.680
so

00:47:47.680 --> 00:47:50.240
that's i think where we're at in history

00:47:50.240 --> 00:47:53.240
um

00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:55.839
and i would say

00:47:55.839 --> 00:47:59.200
that that's a long game and it seems

00:47:59.200 --> 00:48:01.920
very frustrating um you know it's not

00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:03.520
something you can teach because

00:48:03.520 --> 00:48:07.839
basically the self is is

00:48:07.839 --> 00:48:10.000
is a process right

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.240
and it's going to take the shape in many

00:48:12.240 --> 00:48:14.319
cases it's going to use the affordances

00:48:14.319 --> 00:48:16.079
and take the shapes and

00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:18.800
and struggle with perverse incentives

00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:19.599
and

00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:22.400
be seduced by perverse incentives and

00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.440
those are the external world the built

00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.040
environment

00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:28.800
and i think you know you said you're in

00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.280
like denmark and you can feel what it

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.920
must how different it may feel like to

00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.280
grow up in denmark that it would you

00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.839
would be structured in a different

00:48:39.839 --> 00:48:41.040
different way

00:48:41.040 --> 00:48:42.400
um

00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.319
but we live in the society we have and

00:48:44.319 --> 00:48:45.839
we do have

00:48:45.839 --> 00:48:48.480
all these internal structures with most

00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:50.720
people at this point in time

00:48:50.720 --> 00:48:52.960
and

00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:55.040
i think

00:48:55.040 --> 00:48:57.359
using a model like this is just to be

00:48:57.359 --> 00:48:59.520
very careful that you're not

00:48:59.520 --> 00:49:01.280
inadvertently

00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:03.359
raiifying structures you would hope

00:49:03.359 --> 00:49:06.559
people would move off of

00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:08.880
and

00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.760
and i think when we

00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:13.119
when we know too much about

00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:15.760
developmental models we can ape them

00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:16.880
really well

00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:20.000
and pretend we're moving when when we're

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:20.960
not

00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:22.240
um

00:49:22.240 --> 00:49:23.839
you know someone said i think all of

00:49:23.839 --> 00:49:25.680
these are operating all the time yes

00:49:25.680 --> 00:49:28.720
they are um under stress

00:49:28.720 --> 00:49:30.880
you know you can feel really strong

00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.559
belonging needs

00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:33.680
um

00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:34.720
but

00:49:34.720 --> 00:49:36.319
um

00:49:36.319 --> 00:49:38.240
you know this model is contribut

00:49:38.240 --> 00:49:40.000
controversial

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:42.000
because it says belonging and safety

00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.800
needs are not highly evolved

00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.280
it's not a highly evolved psyche

00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:50.000
and the whole culture of psychotherapy

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.559
wants to keep

00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:55.200
re-emphasizing safety and belonging and

00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:56.480
and and

00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.359
um so

00:49:59.359 --> 00:50:01.760
you may be working with safety needs and

00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:03.839
belonging needs but it's to me it's not

00:50:03.839 --> 00:50:06.720
advantageous to keep saying that every

00:50:06.720 --> 00:50:09.359
time you sit down and we space practice

00:50:09.359 --> 00:50:10.400
because

00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:11.680
these are

00:50:11.680 --> 00:50:12.880
these are

00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.520
very primitive structures they're set

00:50:15.520 --> 00:50:17.440
down before you're in the subtle level

00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:20.319
before you can actually organize reality

00:50:20.319 --> 00:50:23.839
through very more cognitive ways right

00:50:23.839 --> 00:50:24.800
so

00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:26.559
um

00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:27.520
uh

00:50:27.520 --> 00:50:28.480
yeah

00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:31.440
there's it problematizes the question of

00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.839
trauma you know whether and we're going

00:50:33.839 --> 00:50:36.400
to look at early that underlying thing

00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.720
about early childhood experiences and

00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:40.800
why do we have safety and belonging

00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:43.040
needs for so long is it because our

00:50:43.040 --> 00:50:45.839
childhood is traumatized or is it

00:50:45.839 --> 00:50:48.160
something else so we got to look at that

00:50:48.160 --> 00:50:49.280
you know

00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:51.040
but that's those are the questions

00:50:51.040 --> 00:50:52.640
though the model

00:50:52.640 --> 00:50:54.960
uh brings up it is a controvers it's

00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:56.960
quite controversial

00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:59.280
relative to

00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.680
it's not popular culture but i would say

00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:04.400
more the uh mainstream thinking in these

00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:05.520
in these

00:51:05.520 --> 00:51:08.839
these groups

00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:10.160
awesome

00:51:10.160 --> 00:51:12.480
uh so we'll put it to the uh the

00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.119
questions in the chat uh

00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:19.280
catharina uh first and then zoe

00:51:20.160 --> 00:51:21.839
you can go and meet yourself and ask

00:51:21.839 --> 00:51:23.760
your question

00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.400
catharina

00:51:27.040 --> 00:51:29.839
can you you can meet yourself

00:51:29.839 --> 00:51:32.640
no you can't okay that's why

00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:34.880
you can unmute yourself now and then

00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.800
we need to just got muted by accident

00:51:41.839 --> 00:51:44.720
hello bonita thank you for your

00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:46.720
a really good overview

00:51:46.720 --> 00:51:50.240
um i posted a question in the chat um

00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:52.240
but i can also just

00:51:52.240 --> 00:51:53.839
reword it which is

00:51:53.839 --> 00:51:56.000
that i think there might be a danger

00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.079
especially in spiritual spiritual

00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:00.240
circles to confuse the formal and the

00:52:00.240 --> 00:52:02.319
post-formal stage

00:52:02.319 --> 00:52:05.119
and i was wondering um

00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:07.920
what what your opinion is about

00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:10.000
emptiness teachings

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.880
um in helping or in bringing about the

00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:15.280
post-formal stage

00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:16.240
um

00:52:16.240 --> 00:52:18.400
kind of showing that the self is a

00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.440
dependent arising and um

00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:23.680
because personally i feel that is a deep

00:52:23.680 --> 00:52:26.000
or not i feel i i intellectually i think

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.599
i haven't um

00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.440
made these deep experiences but i think

00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:31.200
this is a can be a pitfall a lot of

00:52:31.200 --> 00:52:33.280
spiritual circles that there is an idea

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:34.000
of

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.520
of an it and it is the doer um however

00:52:37.520 --> 00:52:38.240
the

00:52:38.240 --> 00:52:40.160
experiential level is lacking because

00:52:40.160 --> 00:52:42.400
there are no or not enough not

00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:43.520
sufficient

00:52:43.520 --> 00:52:45.680
insights into the emptiness of the self

00:52:45.680 --> 00:52:48.400
and of all things and i would just yeah

00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.960
that's kind of the angle i'm coming from

00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:53.119
from from a meditative

00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:54.800
viewpoint

00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:57.520
thank you bonita

00:52:57.520 --> 00:53:01.839
yeah it's it's a um

00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:07.040
there are certain character okay so i

00:53:07.040 --> 00:53:08.079
try to

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:09.280
talk about

00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:10.559
i love the way you talked about the

00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:12.720
emptiness of the self there's a

00:53:12.720 --> 00:53:14.640
ontological emptiness that i have a

00:53:14.640 --> 00:53:17.440
strong critique against um but yeah the

00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:19.359
emptiness of the self

00:53:19.359 --> 00:53:21.599
um

00:53:24.319 --> 00:53:27.520
it's tricky because you can have a state

00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:29.359
experience or

00:53:29.359 --> 00:53:31.680
an insight into the emptiness of the

00:53:31.680 --> 00:53:34.000
self

00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:36.720
but if you still have psychological

00:53:36.720 --> 00:53:38.000
structures

00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:41.119
you're not there yet

00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:43.119
and of course i can pretend that i don't

00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:46.160
have these structures by repressing them

00:53:46.160 --> 00:53:47.839
blah blah blah

00:53:47.839 --> 00:53:49.040
um

00:53:49.040 --> 00:53:51.280
but they're not actually resolved and

00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:52.559
released

00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:53.920
um

00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:56.240
so

00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:58.079
i would say

00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:02.720
that one mechanism is to understand

00:54:02.720 --> 00:54:04.800
the felt sense of these structures in

00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.119
your body

00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:08.079
and

00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:09.440
um

00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:10.720
and

00:54:10.720 --> 00:54:13.119
um

00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.440
notice that

00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:20.400
um

00:54:20.720 --> 00:54:24.400
the the the experience of emptiness of

00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:27.280
self is not arising

00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:29.760
in fact the experience of

00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:32.400
role and belonging and what do i look

00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:33.680
like and

00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:35.680
is arising

00:54:35.680 --> 00:54:37.040
so

00:54:37.040 --> 00:54:39.280
it's always is the experience of

00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:42.960
emptiness of self arising or is it not

00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:46.559
um it's not whether it's an idea that

00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:49.599
you can kind of

00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:54.559
get a theoretical glimpse of it

00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:55.760
um

00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:58.319
and also i think

00:54:58.319 --> 00:55:00.640
um

00:55:01.200 --> 00:55:05.799
if more people could talk about

00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:07.200
what does it

00:55:07.200 --> 00:55:10.480
feel like to live in a body where the

00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:12.520
site there's really very little

00:55:12.520 --> 00:55:15.520
psychological structures

00:55:15.520 --> 00:55:18.880
um basically that's your

00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:21.760
measurement what does your body feel

00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:23.839
like

00:55:23.839 --> 00:55:26.000
you can understand the potential

00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:27.839
emptiness of the self

00:55:27.839 --> 00:55:29.119
but if you have

00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:32.559
psychological constrictions then

00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:37.200
emptiness is not arising in your body

00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:46.839
is that helpful it's a tough question so

00:55:46.839 --> 00:55:50.319
um it feels a certain way

00:55:50.319 --> 00:55:52.559
first of all

00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:55.440
one of the characteristics is very funny

00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:57.440
because you're just like oh my god it's

00:55:57.440 --> 00:55:59.920
never been about me like literally it

00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:02.880
can be the cosmic joke all the work you

00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:04.799
did in the subtle level to control your

00:56:04.799 --> 00:56:07.040
inner environment and work it was all

00:56:07.040 --> 00:56:09.599
very narcissistic right this is what it

00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:11.839
feels like at the end

00:56:11.839 --> 00:56:14.079
um

00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:16.960
so there's key characteristics but it

00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:20.079
feels different you know like i remember

00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:21.040
thinking

00:56:21.040 --> 00:56:24.559
the way i i relate to it was

00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:28.000
in the in the gross level everything

00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.000
you're involved with is external

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.799
conditions causes and conditions if only

00:56:32.799 --> 00:56:34.559
i had more money if only they didn't

00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:37.359
yell at me if only my parents you know

00:56:37.359 --> 00:56:39.760
like it's always

00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:42.319
about external causes and conditions and

00:56:42.319 --> 00:56:44.160
then in the subtle levels you start to

00:56:44.160 --> 00:56:46.640
realize oh if i can control my inner

00:56:46.640 --> 00:56:49.040
causes and conditions change is a game

00:56:49.040 --> 00:56:50.319
changer

00:56:50.319 --> 00:56:52.240
so i call that you feel like you crack

00:56:52.240 --> 00:56:55.920
the code it's very powerful

00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.319
in the in the last category even that

00:56:58.319 --> 00:57:02.319
seems ridiculous hopelessly narcissistic

00:57:02.319 --> 00:57:03.359
um

00:57:03.359 --> 00:57:05.280
so

00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:06.240
uh

00:57:06.240 --> 00:57:08.559
yeah

00:57:08.640 --> 00:57:12.400
it's it's it's it's a very big shift

00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:13.440
um

00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:16.240
and you see it in teachers like

00:57:16.240 --> 00:57:18.000
i don't know never know how to say his

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:20.079
name

00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:22.720
when he stands in front of a bunch of

00:57:22.720 --> 00:57:25.040
students and they say can you give us

00:57:25.040 --> 00:57:27.280
one word of advice and he says get more

00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:29.680
sleep

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.880
you see that's when you hear people like

00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.040
that

00:57:35.040 --> 00:57:38.319
this is in that category

00:57:38.319 --> 00:57:39.200
like

00:57:39.200 --> 00:57:41.599
and he says it with such a dalai lama i

00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:42.880
mean he's like

00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:44.960
he's laughs all the time like he's not

00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:48.160
about trying to change anything like

00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:51.520
uh yeah so that's what you see in in in

00:57:51.520 --> 00:57:55.200
that kind of uh in that category let's

00:57:55.200 --> 00:57:56.559
say

00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:59.680
i mean these are stereotypes but

00:57:59.680 --> 00:58:03.599
uh they're also markers

00:58:04.319 --> 00:58:05.760
thank you bonita

00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:07.839
thanks for the question i hope it's

00:58:07.839 --> 00:58:11.119
yeah it's a big question

00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:15.599
zoe uh if you can ask your question next

00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.880
hi it's zoe hi

00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:21.359
hi joey hi

00:58:21.359 --> 00:58:23.040
um

00:58:23.040 --> 00:58:24.319
yeah

00:58:24.319 --> 00:58:27.680
first thank you and um it's really

00:58:27.680 --> 00:58:30.319
useful and my questions more about like

00:58:30.319 --> 00:58:32.640
this

00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:36.880
this feeling of those things

00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:38.960
simultaneously

00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.520
you know and that kind of shifting maybe

00:58:41.520 --> 00:58:43.920
between stages

00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.799
and conversations with the self between

00:58:46.799 --> 00:58:50.240
different of these stages

00:58:50.240 --> 00:58:52.000
and

00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:54.319
yeah and also a kind of like a little

00:58:54.319 --> 00:58:55.920
bit this feeling

00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:57.680
um

00:58:57.680 --> 00:59:00.240
sometimes that we

00:59:00.240 --> 00:59:03.119
we tend to make a kind of ladder or a

00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:04.400
hierarchy

00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:06.720
of that thing and that kind of

00:59:06.720 --> 00:59:09.359
push towards this evolution is like

00:59:09.359 --> 00:59:11.920
pushing us towards a point where we aim

00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:13.839
for that and maybe that's where some of

00:59:13.839 --> 00:59:15.119
those

00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:17.119
that acting

00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:20.079
kind of takes place

00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:22.319
when actually there's someone aiming to

00:59:22.319 --> 00:59:24.640
get to causal you know i want to be

00:59:24.640 --> 00:59:28.079
causal because that's the best thing

00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:31.119
you know and i i was sort of noticing

00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:33.920
that and i was wondering if if making it

00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:35.599
a linear model

00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.280
is really

00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:39.680
if there's another a way that's not

00:59:39.680 --> 00:59:41.920
linear to think about this that's not

00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:45.359
about i'm evolving but as in like

00:59:45.359 --> 00:59:48.240
it's all part of my being simultaneously

00:59:48.240 --> 00:59:51.200
in different levels different amounts

00:59:51.200 --> 00:59:52.319
different

00:59:52.319 --> 00:59:54.640
grasping of it

00:59:54.640 --> 00:59:58.640
yeah so most of us experience

00:59:58.640 --> 01:00:01.920
them all playing their role

01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:05.440
um but some get quieter and quieter and

01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:07.440
we we less

01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:11.119
uh interested in them and others come

01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:12.799
online stronger

01:00:12.799 --> 01:00:15.280
um now what i want to say is this is

01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.400
just the developmental line of the model

01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:20.079
which is why it's linear and

01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:21.359
developmental

01:00:21.359 --> 01:00:23.520
but remember the whole origin of the

01:00:23.520 --> 01:00:26.240
self has three legs three

01:00:26.240 --> 01:00:28.960
the self actually grows dynamically in

01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:32.000
us as expansion across three domains and

01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:33.520
the other two domains are not

01:00:33.520 --> 01:00:35.359
developmental

01:00:35.359 --> 01:00:39.680
so yes you're right this is the

01:00:39.680 --> 01:00:41.680
the portion of the whole i mean i don't

01:00:41.680 --> 01:00:43.440
know how to talk about the whole thing

01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:44.880
all at once

01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:47.359
um but this is the developmental

01:00:47.359 --> 01:00:49.599
trajectory uh we're going to look at the

01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:50.880
core self

01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:53.119
next time it's not a developmental

01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:54.160
process

01:00:54.160 --> 01:00:56.799
it's not but

01:00:56.799 --> 01:00:59.440
part of our experience is developmental

01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:01.760
part of its evolutionary evolutionary

01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:02.880
unfolding

01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:05.839
part of it is just being in action and

01:01:05.839 --> 01:01:08.000
in feedback loops so

01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.520
um yeah

01:01:09.520 --> 01:01:10.559
so

01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:13.680
this happens to be that part of

01:01:13.680 --> 01:01:15.839
that dynamic in the self and that's why

01:01:15.839 --> 01:01:18.319
it's exclusively developmental

01:01:18.319 --> 01:01:20.720
but you're right it's

01:01:20.720 --> 01:01:22.319
yeah

01:01:22.319 --> 01:01:24.319
but there's not a sense of transcend and

01:01:24.319 --> 01:01:25.440
include

01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:26.319
uh

01:01:26.319 --> 01:01:27.520
once you're

01:01:27.520 --> 01:01:29.760
out of the stage of role

01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:30.799
they're not

01:01:30.799 --> 01:01:33.440
you could take up a role but it it just

01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:35.119
like suzanne said it's like a game it

01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:38.119
doesn't

01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:43.040
doesn't have any real meaning or doesn't

01:01:43.040 --> 01:01:44.319
seem like

01:01:44.319 --> 01:01:46.799
it pertains to you really

01:01:46.799 --> 01:01:49.200
um

01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:53.040
it's like when i get pulled over by a

01:01:53.040 --> 01:01:55.359
cop like i take up a roll that's

01:01:55.359 --> 01:01:56.720
literally

01:01:56.720 --> 01:02:00.079
not me at all but just for like

01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:02.160
to get it over with you know

01:02:02.160 --> 01:02:03.359
um

01:02:03.359 --> 01:02:06.359
so

01:02:08.799 --> 01:02:10.640
but it is developmental this this

01:02:10.640 --> 01:02:13.599
particular portion of the whole

01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:14.640
uh

01:02:14.640 --> 01:02:16.799
scheme the whole

01:02:16.799 --> 01:02:21.319
model is the developmental portion

01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:25.599
any follow-up zoe

01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:30.480
just digesting thank you

01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:33.200
the model is that attempt is not not

01:02:33.200 --> 01:02:34.960
describe their self in

01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:37.920
in only in terms of developmental

01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:40.400
um but we have to include

01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:43.280
um that there is an aspect to

01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:46.079
change in the self that is developmental

01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:48.880
it's also you know so yeah

01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:52.640
good question good noticing

01:02:52.640 --> 01:02:57.039
shayla if you can ask your question next

01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:58.640
thank you

01:02:58.640 --> 01:03:00.839
thank you peter thank you uh

01:03:00.839 --> 01:03:03.680
bonnie and yeah it's beautiful to feel

01:03:03.680 --> 01:03:05.680
all the questions that are cohering in

01:03:05.680 --> 01:03:08.000
this space right now

01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:10.240
and so mine which other people have

01:03:10.240 --> 01:03:11.680
echoed

01:03:11.680 --> 01:03:13.039
is about

01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:16.000
i i feel in a lot of the groups i'm in

01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:18.079
that i've co-facilitate

01:03:18.079 --> 01:03:21.359
like these these stages are all you know

01:03:21.359 --> 01:03:23.680
happening together popping up and

01:03:23.680 --> 01:03:25.359
disappearing

01:03:25.359 --> 01:03:29.440
and i i i'm i feel very frustrated right

01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:30.960
now because

01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:33.039
there's so little clarity in the we

01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:34.799
spaces

01:03:34.799 --> 01:03:37.520
and so i was co-facilitating trying to

01:03:37.520 --> 01:03:40.400
co-facilitate a group recently in which

01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:42.720
you know that question of what wants to

01:03:42.720 --> 01:03:44.240
emerge

01:03:44.240 --> 01:03:47.280
is coming up strongly

01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:49.760
but it's still entangled

01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:51.440
in

01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:54.240
more primitive ego structures

01:03:54.240 --> 01:03:56.799
which is fascinating to me so

01:03:56.799 --> 01:03:59.680
a group of us decided to you know

01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:01.760
engage that question

01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:04.640
and i was one of the main facilitators

01:04:04.640 --> 01:04:07.200
and i shut the group down

01:04:07.200 --> 01:04:09.359
because i i saw i've never done that

01:04:09.359 --> 01:04:11.520
before but i could see that people think

01:04:11.520 --> 01:04:14.480
they're engaging that question

01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:16.400
and part of them is but then their

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:18.799
identity structure comes along and grabs

01:04:18.799 --> 01:04:20.160
it

01:04:20.160 --> 01:04:22.880
and they're not you know and and they're

01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:25.280
not really asking the question on the

01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:26.559
level that

01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:28.480
you're talking about

01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:30.960
and i i couldn't sort it out because i

01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:33.200
didn't know how to bring

01:04:33.200 --> 01:04:34.960
enough clarity

01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:39.720
so that we could see what was going on

01:04:40.319 --> 01:04:42.319
and i see that in all sorts of other wee

01:04:42.319 --> 01:04:44.079
spaces too like

01:04:44.079 --> 01:04:46.559
that there's so much confusion

01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.119
because we're not able to to say to

01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:52.160
someone oh you're engaging that question

01:04:52.160 --> 01:04:55.039
from a a very fixed identity and then

01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:56.160
the whole

01:04:56.160 --> 01:04:58.880
the whole we space collapses or

01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:01.599
fragments

01:05:02.319 --> 01:05:04.000
does this mean yeah yeah i mean because

01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:05.839
everything's in play at the same time we

01:05:05.839 --> 01:05:09.039
have an indication of this notion of

01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:10.880
letting go and seeing what wants to

01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:12.799
emerge but

01:05:12.799 --> 01:05:15.520
there's social anxiety and a lot of

01:05:15.520 --> 01:05:18.400
stuff happens with bodies in space

01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:21.119
um but one of the things that this may

01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:22.880
or may not be helpful

01:05:22.880 --> 01:05:25.039
is what i learned

01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:27.119
through my own experiments

01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:28.559
was that

01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:30.880
um

01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:33.200
so you notice i i put

01:05:33.200 --> 01:05:37.520
collective wheeze as world building

01:05:37.520 --> 01:05:40.799
and i think that

01:05:40.799 --> 01:05:43.680
we space practice as a psycho technology

01:05:43.680 --> 01:05:45.760
is interesting up to a point

01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:47.119
i think it's

01:05:47.119 --> 01:05:50.559
um problematic if you're not doing

01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:52.319
something in the world

01:05:52.319 --> 01:05:55.119
and when you actually take up

01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:57.680
a project with a group in the world the

01:05:57.680 --> 01:06:00.160
world will ground some of this problem

01:06:00.160 --> 01:06:02.000
you're focused on the problem so some of

01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:04.559
these other structures don't play such a

01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:06.799
big part when you're only doing weed

01:06:06.799 --> 01:06:10.000
space practice it's highlighting

01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:12.400
the psychological structures

01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:13.440
and

01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:15.119
so

01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:17.119
asking the question what wants to emerge

01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:20.400
is not a real world project

01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:22.079
that's amazing that you're saying that

01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.160
bonnie because i've been involved

01:06:24.160 --> 01:06:26.559
for the last four months a group of us

01:06:26.559 --> 01:06:28.640
have been bringing a woman out of

01:06:28.640 --> 01:06:31.119
afghanistan

01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:33.280
and it's been an incredibly intense

01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:35.280
project there's been a lot it's just

01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:37.680
been very challenging and i noticed

01:06:37.680 --> 01:06:39.599
exactly what you're saying yeah because

01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:41.839
that's a real project it could be as

01:06:41.839 --> 01:06:44.640
simple as that take one woman

01:06:44.640 --> 01:06:47.200
and get her out of trouble but you see

01:06:47.200 --> 01:06:50.280
it's already allo centric it's already

01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:51.839
world-facing

01:06:51.839 --> 01:06:55.119
and i believe this is the problem we had

01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:56.160
great

01:06:56.160 --> 01:06:58.799
struggles with our respace practices up

01:06:58.799 --> 01:07:01.039
and down just like things people

01:07:01.039 --> 01:07:04.240
complain about and then it started to

01:07:04.240 --> 01:07:06.880
cohere and we had these fantastic

01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:09.359
metaphysical insights and then after we

01:07:09.359 --> 01:07:11.520
drank champagne and we shut it down

01:07:11.520 --> 01:07:13.440
because we realized the metaphysical

01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:16.400
insights was infinitely high play could

01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:18.400
go on forever and it was meaningless in

01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:19.920
the real world

01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:22.960
so that's my experience yeah because

01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:25.760
it's fun when that happens um but you're

01:07:25.760 --> 01:07:28.640
right the world can ground like just

01:07:28.640 --> 01:07:31.599
simple service in the world with a group

01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:34.960
of people is the way to develop intimacy

01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:37.359
in a wee space

01:07:37.359 --> 01:07:39.839
and to get rid of your ego and

01:07:39.839 --> 01:07:41.440
yeah look at these psychological

01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:43.839
structures through the work that's why

01:07:43.839 --> 01:07:46.799
in my model i put it as world building

01:07:46.799 --> 01:07:48.640
well that that's amazing because i

01:07:48.640 --> 01:07:50.400
started to notice in the past few days

01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:52.079
because we're at such a critical place

01:07:52.079 --> 01:07:54.240
with this woman and she's actually in

01:07:54.240 --> 01:07:55.200
danger

01:07:55.200 --> 01:07:57.359
that all of us like things will come up

01:07:57.359 --> 01:07:59.280
and i realize that's irrelevant like

01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:02.160
there's a true natural transcendence

01:08:02.160 --> 01:08:04.720
that happens exactly yeah

01:08:04.720 --> 01:08:07.359
and that's through the world the world

01:08:07.359 --> 01:08:10.079
is the transcendent phenomenon i believe

01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:12.240
that action is the only transcendent

01:08:12.240 --> 01:08:14.640
phenomenon everything else is imminent

01:08:14.640 --> 01:08:16.239
actions transcendent because you don't

01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:17.920
know what you do you don't know what the

01:08:17.920 --> 01:08:19.920
outcome is and you have to choose any

01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:21.199
ways

01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:23.120
in my opinion that's the only

01:08:23.120 --> 01:08:25.199
transcendent

01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:26.640
aspect of

01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:28.880
everything else is false conceptual

01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:30.480
transcendence everything else is

01:08:30.480 --> 01:08:32.319
imminence but action

01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:35.679
is the transcendent element

01:08:35.679 --> 01:08:36.839
so yes

01:08:36.839 --> 01:08:39.759
yeah yeah so

01:08:39.759 --> 01:08:42.560
so we're saying the same thing we're

01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:45.839
we're noticing the same

01:08:45.839 --> 01:08:48.400
patterns i would suppose

01:08:48.400 --> 01:08:50.400
an action could be like

01:08:50.400 --> 01:08:52.239
traveling the world together that puts a

01:08:52.239 --> 01:08:53.359
tremendous

01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:55.520
traveling together puts a tremendous

01:08:55.520 --> 01:08:58.400
amount of the same kind of where the

01:08:58.400 --> 01:08:59.839
rubber hits the road so it doesn't have

01:08:59.839 --> 01:09:02.000
to be like

01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:03.839
you know but it but

01:09:03.839 --> 01:09:05.279
it should be something yeah i'm sure

01:09:05.279 --> 01:09:09.040
peter's noticing that these days

01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:11.839
a little bit

01:09:11.839 --> 01:09:13.040
um

01:09:13.040 --> 01:09:15.920
so thank you shayla

01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:17.359
that's uh

01:09:17.359 --> 01:09:22.319
keith keith you had a question to chat

01:09:23.679 --> 01:09:28.239
yeah um as an older generation person

01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:31.040
looking at

01:09:31.040 --> 01:09:34.960
the fragmentation across generations

01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:38.239
i'm really concerned about for instance

01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:42.000
people who are not yet economically

01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:44.000
feeling empowered

01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:46.480
and so they're taking alternative ways

01:09:46.480 --> 01:09:49.440
to exercise some sort of voice in the

01:09:49.440 --> 01:09:50.640
world

01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:51.679
build

01:09:51.679 --> 01:09:54.400
world building in a way but through

01:09:54.400 --> 01:09:56.000
activism which is

01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:58.560
often very confrontational and very

01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.360
frustrating it's my interpretation of it

01:10:01.360 --> 01:10:03.600
from and um

01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:05.920
so this brings this whole question is

01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:08.640
how does it relate between

01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:11.120
people at different stages and groups in

01:10:11.120 --> 01:10:14.239
society that need to

01:10:14.239 --> 01:10:16.159
speak together in order to bring about

01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:18.719
really collective transformation and of

01:10:18.719 --> 01:10:20.320
course then there's a whole

01:10:20.320 --> 01:10:23.679
uh thing about uh traumas from the old

01:10:23.679 --> 01:10:25.600
that are inherent in the older

01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:27.920
generation that are held and silent

01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:30.560
because we don't talk about them

01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:32.320
and what that does to the younger

01:10:32.320 --> 01:10:34.480
generation who are living in their

01:10:34.480 --> 01:10:37.199
bodies but don't know where it came from

01:10:37.199 --> 01:10:38.239
shame

01:10:38.239 --> 01:10:39.120
uh

01:10:39.120 --> 01:10:40.320
violence

01:10:40.320 --> 01:10:42.480
you can name it sexism

01:10:42.480 --> 01:10:44.480
the whole list

01:10:44.480 --> 01:10:46.159
so it's complicated but i'm really

01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:47.920
curious about how your model works with

01:10:47.920 --> 01:10:48.800
this

01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:51.120
we'll talk about shame and trauma next

01:10:51.120 --> 01:10:53.679
time we have to because it's it's it's

01:10:53.679 --> 01:10:55.280
not developmental

01:10:55.280 --> 01:10:56.320
um

01:10:56.320 --> 01:10:58.000
and it's a very big topic and it's

01:10:58.000 --> 01:10:59.440
almost all we're going to talk about

01:10:59.440 --> 01:11:00.640
next time

01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:03.760
um but in terms of um

01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:06.400
activism and you know it's no

01:11:06.400 --> 01:11:09.040
coincidence that for example perspective

01:11:09.040 --> 01:11:11.920
has uh released a book called entangled

01:11:11.920 --> 01:11:13.600
activism

01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:16.719
and indra anon is talking about

01:11:16.719 --> 01:11:19.760
uh post i forgot what she calls it like

01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:21.679
there's a lot of people that are

01:11:21.679 --> 01:11:24.000
reflecting back on then these people

01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:25.120
have been activists and they're

01:11:25.120 --> 01:11:28.320
reflecting back on

01:11:28.320 --> 01:11:30.320
where is activism today where does it

01:11:30.320 --> 01:11:32.159
live in the world building project what

01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:34.560
went wrong with it how it's complicit in

01:11:34.560 --> 01:11:37.040
the very things that it's been fighting

01:11:37.040 --> 01:11:37.840
um

01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:38.640
so

01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:42.080
you do see this this reflected

01:11:42.080 --> 01:11:44.960
reflection emerging from the and and of

01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:47.520
course the tension between

01:11:47.520 --> 01:11:50.000
activists who are really

01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:51.040
uh

01:11:51.040 --> 01:11:51.920
yeah

01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:54.880
i mean i had the you know zimbabwe

01:11:54.880 --> 01:11:56.239
liberation

01:11:56.239 --> 01:11:58.480
front army in my

01:11:58.480 --> 01:11:59.280
uh

01:11:59.280 --> 01:12:01.760
studio when i lived in san francisco and

01:12:01.760 --> 01:12:03.199
they were doing a

01:12:03.199 --> 01:12:04.080
you know

01:12:04.080 --> 01:12:07.440
they had a festival down at the oakland

01:12:07.440 --> 01:12:10.159
communist center i mean i mean i've been

01:12:10.159 --> 01:12:11.040
there

01:12:11.040 --> 01:12:13.360
you know

01:12:14.080 --> 01:12:14.960
so

01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:17.520
um

01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:21.880
yeah i mean i i

01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:25.120
i sometimes work myself into a frenzy in

01:12:25.120 --> 01:12:28.159
terms of the the the me the me structure

01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:31.199
is huge on social media

01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:35.120
it's it's just a huge reinforcing this

01:12:35.120 --> 01:12:37.840
me structure and belonging and status

01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:40.560
and how do i look relative to the other

01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:42.320
person and

01:12:42.320 --> 01:12:44.480
it's disembodied and it doesn't have

01:12:44.480 --> 01:12:47.120
anything to do with the world and

01:12:47.120 --> 01:12:49.520
uh it lives in the me structure lives in

01:12:49.520 --> 01:12:51.679
the psyche which has infinite potential

01:12:51.679 --> 01:12:55.440
to infinitely complexify

01:12:55.760 --> 01:12:57.520
and

01:12:57.520 --> 01:12:59.600
there's so many different me's threaded

01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:02.560
through all these different kind of cis

01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:05.199
straight white trans you know

01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:08.239
like this is just hype the me on

01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:10.480
steroids in our culture

01:13:10.480 --> 01:13:12.320
um

01:13:12.320 --> 01:13:14.000
i don't know

01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:16.480
maybe the structure will exhaust itself

01:13:16.480 --> 01:13:18.400
you know that's also true

01:13:18.400 --> 01:13:20.640
there's a developmental progression but

01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:22.960
we also see that some

01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:25.840
some things in life

01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:28.080
of the psyche in the mind

01:13:28.080 --> 01:13:29.679
um

01:13:29.679 --> 01:13:32.159
get like ramped up and then the

01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:34.320
structure exhausts itself and then it's

01:13:34.320 --> 01:13:37.360
just about gone so that some of these

01:13:37.360 --> 01:13:39.760
things evolve because they exhaust

01:13:39.760 --> 01:13:41.520
themselves

01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:42.640
uh

01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:47.000
that could be happening also

01:13:49.679 --> 01:13:52.239
the mind is like that like if you really

01:13:52.239 --> 01:13:54.719
you can get a breakthrough by hyper

01:13:54.719 --> 01:13:57.199
attentive

01:13:57.199 --> 01:14:00.960
introspection of

01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:03.520
a question until you pop out the other

01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:04.480
end

01:14:04.480 --> 01:14:06.800
right versus just calming yourself down

01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:09.760
so there are some there is some reason

01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:10.880
to

01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:12.960
think that these structures exhaust

01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:14.719
themselves that they don't actually

01:14:14.719 --> 01:14:16.719
necessarily move through

01:14:16.719 --> 01:14:20.320
society developmentally

01:14:23.440 --> 01:14:25.600
any uh follow-up question or shares

01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:28.600
keith

01:14:29.360 --> 01:14:31.199
i think i'll meditate on that for a

01:14:31.199 --> 01:14:35.120
while i'm not finding a coherence in

01:14:35.120 --> 01:14:36.159
what i've

01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:38.320
what i'm seeing so i'll just sit on it

01:14:38.320 --> 01:14:39.679
for a while

01:14:39.679 --> 01:14:41.760
wait till next time it's not in this

01:14:41.760 --> 01:14:44.159
session thank you very much

01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:45.760
for this beautiful work

01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:49.280
thank you for the question

01:14:50.880 --> 01:14:53.040
all right uh i think

01:14:53.040 --> 01:14:54.560
we might have one more question in the

01:14:54.560 --> 01:14:56.640
chat uh

01:14:56.640 --> 01:15:00.320
do you still want to ask your question

01:15:00.320 --> 01:15:03.040
well the timing uh may not be perfect

01:15:03.040 --> 01:15:05.679
for this question but

01:15:05.679 --> 01:15:09.199
i was wondering if uh

01:15:09.199 --> 01:15:11.760
if all dimensions that you shared with

01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:14.239
us in prior session and this one and

01:15:14.239 --> 01:15:16.239
maybe there will be more

01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:17.360
uh

01:15:17.360 --> 01:15:20.080
flowing in between those

01:15:20.080 --> 01:15:22.880
as consciously as possible

01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:25.520
while building is possible something is

01:15:25.520 --> 01:15:28.640
this something teachable

01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:30.480
um

01:15:30.480 --> 01:15:33.120
that's a really good question

01:15:33.120 --> 01:15:34.000
um

01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:35.840
i go through phases i've been teaching

01:15:35.840 --> 01:15:38.880
this for a long time and sometimes i go

01:15:38.880 --> 01:15:40.640
through phases of

01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:43.520
tremendous despair i just had a weekend

01:15:43.520 --> 01:15:44.719
with my

01:15:44.719 --> 01:15:47.120
class

01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:49.760
that

01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:51.760
threw me into despair i wasn't on this

01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:54.480
we've done this earlier but um yeah it

01:15:54.480 --> 01:15:57.199
makes me wonder

01:15:57.199 --> 01:15:58.960
yeah why bother at all sometimes and

01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:00.960
then sometimes

01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:04.640
it seems to i get someone

01:16:04.640 --> 01:16:06.400
i mean sometimes people

01:16:06.400 --> 01:16:07.840
write me and they say i saved their

01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:09.520
lives because they were just on this

01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:11.440
path and then all of a sudden it was

01:16:11.440 --> 01:16:12.960
crystal clear

01:16:12.960 --> 01:16:15.040
uh so if it's teachable it's not

01:16:15.040 --> 01:16:17.360
reliably teachable

01:16:17.360 --> 01:16:20.360
um

01:16:20.480 --> 01:16:21.920
but it's funny you asked that because i

01:16:21.920 --> 01:16:24.480
just oh you know you had asked me on

01:16:24.480 --> 01:16:26.239
sunday night after my three-day

01:16:26.239 --> 01:16:28.320
intensive if any of this stuff was

01:16:28.320 --> 01:16:29.440
teachable

01:16:29.440 --> 01:16:30.400
uh

01:16:30.400 --> 01:16:32.000
i would have been

01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:34.880
started crying

01:16:34.880 --> 01:16:38.560
it's tough yeah it's tough stuff

01:16:40.719 --> 01:16:42.480
you know it's after all these years it's

01:16:42.480 --> 01:16:44.880
fun it's interesting to be on a public

01:16:44.880 --> 01:16:45.840
venue

01:16:45.840 --> 01:16:48.400
and share it because it's always been

01:16:48.400 --> 01:16:52.640
very small dedicated cohorts

01:16:52.640 --> 01:16:53.679
um

01:16:53.679 --> 01:16:56.000
yeah

01:16:56.000 --> 01:16:58.400
it's use i would say it's useful but not

01:16:58.400 --> 01:17:00.960
teachable

01:17:01.440 --> 01:17:04.320
right it's useful to as

01:17:04.320 --> 01:17:07.440
to organized um but if you just teach it

01:17:07.440 --> 01:17:09.280
and people then say well

01:17:09.280 --> 01:17:11.199
then we're back to that problem where

01:17:11.199 --> 01:17:13.840
people are imagining themselves moving

01:17:13.840 --> 01:17:17.800
through these these structures

01:17:25.679 --> 01:17:26.880
um

01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:29.040
not at this point but i think uh in

01:17:29.040 --> 01:17:31.760
terms of horizon it's just such a

01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:34.400
long-term uh

01:17:34.400 --> 01:17:36.080
thing

01:17:36.080 --> 01:17:37.600
learning such thing

01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:39.120
meander

01:17:39.120 --> 01:17:39.920
and

01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:44.640
embodiedly experience all these places

01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:48.320
to be able to even consider

01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:50.480
being hyper fluid

01:17:50.480 --> 01:17:52.960
ideally or possibly

01:17:52.960 --> 01:17:55.120
in action so

01:17:55.120 --> 01:17:57.360
i don't know but yeah

01:17:57.360 --> 01:17:58.719
um

01:17:58.719 --> 01:18:02.239
i think that um

01:18:06.400 --> 01:18:08.400
i think you know we're not

01:18:08.400 --> 01:18:11.679
by no means am i saying that

01:18:11.679 --> 01:18:14.640
the world be saved if everybody moves

01:18:14.640 --> 01:18:15.679
to this

01:18:15.679 --> 01:18:17.679
this kind of identity structure i'm just

01:18:17.679 --> 01:18:20.080
saying if you want to understand

01:18:20.080 --> 01:18:22.320
the mess that's going on in the human

01:18:22.320 --> 01:18:24.400
system it's very messy and complex this

01:18:24.400 --> 01:18:26.640
is helpful

01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:29.120
right and

01:18:29.120 --> 01:18:31.360
um

01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:37.199
and i think that

01:18:37.199 --> 01:18:39.600
it may be helpful so that people

01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:42.759
[Music]

01:18:43.360 --> 01:18:45.120
they have a sense that this isn't

01:18:45.120 --> 01:18:48.640
working or a sense that

01:18:48.719 --> 01:18:51.360
something's not happening

01:18:51.360 --> 01:18:55.280
and this may help people understand

01:18:55.280 --> 01:18:57.679
part of that wherever they are

01:18:57.679 --> 01:18:58.030
um

01:18:58.030 --> 01:18:59.120
[Music]

01:18:59.120 --> 01:19:00.560
and uh

01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:04.719
yeah and it also serves as a critique on

01:19:04.719 --> 01:19:07.360
methodologies that i think are confused

01:19:07.360 --> 01:19:09.120
about uh

01:19:09.120 --> 01:19:10.159
what

01:19:10.159 --> 01:19:11.120
about

01:19:11.120 --> 01:19:12.159
uh

01:19:12.159 --> 01:19:14.560
what is

01:19:15.040 --> 01:19:18.800
what is the uh non-egoic potential of

01:19:18.800 --> 01:19:20.080
the psyche and

01:19:20.080 --> 01:19:23.120
and what isn't um so some of these

01:19:23.120 --> 01:19:25.840
problematic we spaces i think could be

01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:27.840
helped by a different understanding i

01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:30.239
mean it's just one one model out there

01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:33.679
um there's obviously disagreement

01:19:33.679 --> 01:19:36.679
um

01:19:39.600 --> 01:19:42.000
you know jj's asking or whether there's

01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:45.920
different pedagogy um

01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:48.960
i i don't you know i don't think i'm

01:19:48.960 --> 01:19:51.360
very good at what i do

01:19:51.360 --> 01:19:52.159
uh

01:19:52.159 --> 01:19:56.159
so i think that you know um

01:19:56.159 --> 01:19:58.719
there's probably many more different uh

01:19:58.719 --> 01:20:01.360
pedagogies that could make the learning

01:20:01.360 --> 01:20:04.360
easier

01:20:04.960 --> 01:20:08.159
not only pedagogy though but also actual

01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:09.600
yeah that like

01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:11.440
just whole like learning environments

01:20:11.440 --> 01:20:12.800
and

01:20:12.800 --> 01:20:14.239
spaces that people

01:20:14.239 --> 01:20:17.679
are in the kinds of

01:20:17.679 --> 01:20:19.840
yeah just i mean have you like noticed

01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:21.280
around that where

01:20:21.280 --> 01:20:22.719
certain

01:20:22.719 --> 01:20:24.480
certain environments

01:20:24.480 --> 01:20:27.360
allow them to

01:20:27.440 --> 01:20:32.040
have these insights a bit easier

01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:37.840
yeah i mean there's a whole

01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:40.320
you know we're at odds with

01:20:40.320 --> 01:20:42.719
much of our educational institutions in

01:20:42.719 --> 01:20:44.480
terms of how they deal with some of

01:20:44.480 --> 01:20:45.679
these

01:20:45.679 --> 01:20:48.800
these uh structures were at odds with

01:20:48.800 --> 01:20:51.840
the treads in movies and tv and how

01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:53.679
parents raise their kids

01:20:53.679 --> 01:20:55.040
um

01:20:55.040 --> 01:20:57.360
and it's not that kids shouldn't go

01:20:57.360 --> 01:21:01.120
through a phase of role but then it gets

01:21:01.120 --> 01:21:02.880
overly

01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:05.880
reinforced

01:21:06.719 --> 01:21:09.520
the difference between someone

01:21:09.520 --> 01:21:11.520
understanding as a parent that this is

01:21:11.520 --> 01:21:13.840
an early phase and

01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:16.800
you're open and supporting

01:21:16.800 --> 01:21:19.520
the journey or the fluidity versus a

01:21:19.520 --> 01:21:21.440
parent who

01:21:21.440 --> 01:21:24.159
over praises and

01:21:24.159 --> 01:21:27.560
is part of the whole

01:21:27.560 --> 01:21:31.040
reinforcing uh an early structure

01:21:31.040 --> 01:21:33.280
um

01:21:33.280 --> 01:21:34.159
you know

01:21:34.159 --> 01:21:37.920
that that that's that can be

01:21:37.920 --> 01:21:40.480
that's an interesting question

01:21:40.480 --> 01:21:42.480
um but we're going to look at you know

01:21:42.480 --> 01:21:44.159
the role of parents is even more

01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:46.719
fundamental than than that

01:21:46.719 --> 01:21:48.239
uh we'll look at that

01:21:48.239 --> 01:21:49.600
the the

01:21:49.600 --> 01:21:51.440
journey of the core self is not a

01:21:51.440 --> 01:21:53.360
developmental journey

01:21:53.360 --> 01:21:54.239
um

01:21:54.239 --> 01:21:56.800
we'll look at that next next time

01:21:56.800 --> 01:21:58.480
i think next week i can't remember when

01:21:58.480 --> 01:22:00.960
i'm back

01:22:02.639 --> 01:22:04.239
actually and just just with what you

01:22:04.239 --> 01:22:05.600
said something

01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:07.360
there's thinking about okay the

01:22:07.360 --> 01:22:09.600
effective parent has on the child

01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:11.679
but like say i was thinking about okay

01:22:11.679 --> 01:22:14.080
when you're in relationship with

01:22:14.080 --> 01:22:15.199
um

01:22:15.199 --> 01:22:17.120
okay say say that parent child dynamic

01:22:17.120 --> 01:22:18.800
where the child is much more focused on

01:22:18.800 --> 01:22:19.679
the wrong

01:22:19.679 --> 01:22:22.080
then say a parent is further along that

01:22:22.080 --> 01:22:23.440
line right

01:22:23.440 --> 01:22:26.080
and having to stay in relationship with

01:22:26.080 --> 01:22:28.480
someone who is very focused on on the

01:22:28.480 --> 01:22:30.400
roles and like kind of a strong need for

01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:33.120
them what effect is that having for

01:22:33.120 --> 01:22:38.000
someone saying yeah like the parents

01:22:43.199 --> 01:22:44.880
one person is very

01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:47.120
very focused on that role and it's

01:22:47.120 --> 01:22:48.719
becoming less and less of a thing for

01:22:48.719 --> 01:22:52.239
another um yeah is it like a mutual back

01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:53.920
and fall

01:22:53.920 --> 01:22:56.320
going on

01:22:57.120 --> 01:22:59.440
um

01:22:59.450 --> 01:23:02.540
[Music]

01:23:04.880 --> 01:23:06.560
i mean i think there can be a conflict

01:23:06.560 --> 01:23:09.440
within the person themselves right like

01:23:09.440 --> 01:23:11.360
if you're a role if you've been told to

01:23:11.360 --> 01:23:14.239
be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever

01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:16.880
that's a heavily role-based

01:23:16.880 --> 01:23:19.760
expectation

01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:20.800
and

01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:21.760
um

01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:23.760
so psychodynamically

01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:25.440
you may feel that there's something

01:23:25.440 --> 01:23:27.840
wrong all the time you may be exhausted

01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:30.400
by your job because it's not

01:23:30.400 --> 01:23:31.760
it's not

01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:33.760
something that it doesn't give you back

01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:36.239
energy because it's it's it's stuck in

01:23:36.239 --> 01:23:37.520
this

01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:39.440
role expectation

01:23:39.440 --> 01:23:41.920
that is on the one hand

01:23:41.920 --> 01:23:44.480
uh easy to understand i mean

01:23:44.480 --> 01:23:46.639
it's easy to understand yourself

01:23:46.639 --> 01:23:48.400
this is my career this is my role i go

01:23:48.400 --> 01:23:51.360
to work so in a sense it's a it's a it's

01:23:51.360 --> 01:23:53.440
a shorthand for getting through life

01:23:53.440 --> 01:23:54.639
because

01:23:54.639 --> 01:23:55.760
um

01:23:55.760 --> 01:23:57.760
you're but on the other hand if you're

01:23:57.760 --> 01:23:59.760
kind of

01:23:59.760 --> 01:24:01.920
you know it's eating away at you and you

01:24:01.920 --> 01:24:03.600
feel unfulfilled

01:24:03.600 --> 01:24:05.280
um maybe that's something to pay

01:24:05.280 --> 01:24:07.760
attention to also so

01:24:07.760 --> 01:24:10.560
um in terms of between people

01:24:10.560 --> 01:24:12.480
um i don't think there's that much

01:24:12.480 --> 01:24:14.159
conflict you probably have friends who

01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:15.199
were just

01:24:15.199 --> 01:24:17.440
stuck in a role and they just you might

01:24:17.440 --> 01:24:19.199
say how can you just go to work every

01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:21.520
day like that and basically they kind of

01:24:21.520 --> 01:24:23.280
like say it's easy you know i make money

01:24:23.280 --> 01:24:24.960
it's easy

01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:29.960
and there's usually not a lot of

01:24:30.639 --> 01:24:32.800
a lot of conflict there except if you're

01:24:32.800 --> 01:24:34.239
in a relationship

01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:35.360
right so

01:24:35.360 --> 01:24:39.360
this is very uh big in uh if you're in a

01:24:39.360 --> 01:24:41.360
intimate relationship and you have a

01:24:41.360 --> 01:24:44.880
family for example you may find

01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:47.679
you both started out

01:24:47.679 --> 01:24:50.480
with strong subconscious or unconscious

01:24:50.480 --> 01:24:52.480
role expectations

01:24:52.480 --> 01:24:55.120
and one person doesn't want to

01:24:55.120 --> 01:24:57.520
it's not them anymore right

01:24:57.520 --> 01:24:59.199
this could create a lot of that that

01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:00.400
would be something that would have a

01:25:00.400 --> 01:25:04.800
dynamic between between people

01:25:05.040 --> 01:25:08.280
for sure

01:25:12.320 --> 01:25:15.040
we'll have to close soon um

01:25:15.040 --> 01:25:16.639
cheryl does have a question about uh

01:25:16.639 --> 01:25:18.400
i'll just read it uh any kind of

01:25:18.400 --> 01:25:20.639
recommendations on accessible like media

01:25:20.639 --> 01:25:23.360
or art that expresses the leap to post

01:25:23.360 --> 01:25:25.520
formal consciousness and the example she

01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:29.280
uses a rival and dune

01:25:33.440 --> 01:25:35.120
yeah you probably answer that better

01:25:35.120 --> 01:25:37.280
than me i mean that's a very fascinating

01:25:37.280 --> 01:25:41.520
question arrival yeah um uh

01:25:41.520 --> 01:25:42.960
art

01:25:42.960 --> 01:25:44.639
that's interesting

01:25:44.639 --> 01:25:48.400
i'll think about that like what what art

01:25:48.400 --> 01:25:50.719
um

01:25:51.440 --> 01:25:52.800
i know there's a lot of art that wants

01:25:52.800 --> 01:25:55.520
to reflect that but it can look

01:25:55.520 --> 01:25:57.120
most of what i see can look like new

01:25:57.120 --> 01:26:01.600
agey and it doesn't have this this uh

01:26:02.080 --> 01:26:03.120
um

01:26:03.120 --> 01:26:06.400
i would say uh ronin i don't know if you

01:26:06.400 --> 01:26:07.199
you

01:26:07.199 --> 01:26:10.719
you're watching ronan on on twitter i am

01:26:10.719 --> 01:26:13.360
ronan he's reading a very very ancient

01:26:13.360 --> 01:26:14.880
text and doing

01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:16.080
um

01:26:16.080 --> 01:26:18.880
using christopher alexander's process to

01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:20.560
paint these

01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:23.040
forms that reflect back to him and they

01:26:23.040 --> 01:26:25.840
look like uh paintings from hillmer

01:26:25.840 --> 01:26:27.520
of clint

01:26:27.520 --> 01:26:28.719
um

01:26:28.719 --> 01:26:30.000
i think

01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:32.000
i i think if

01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:33.679
i mean he'd probably embarrass that i'm

01:26:33.679 --> 01:26:35.360
saying this but i think that they

01:26:35.360 --> 01:26:37.199
qualify

01:26:37.199 --> 01:26:39.440
um

01:26:40.400 --> 01:26:42.800
his relationship to the ancient texts

01:26:42.800 --> 01:26:46.000
and the alexandrian approach is really

01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:46.800
the

01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:48.639
you know he's not a painter

01:26:48.639 --> 01:26:51.360
um and he's letting that process through

01:26:51.360 --> 01:26:54.639
him so that you would i see it in his

01:26:54.639 --> 01:26:56.800
work

01:26:56.800 --> 01:26:58.639
it's very simple work you wouldn't you

01:26:58.639 --> 01:27:00.800
wouldn't necessarily just see it and say

01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:06.480
ah that's what was happening to me yeah

01:27:08.159 --> 01:27:10.560
very cool and i think someone might post

01:27:10.560 --> 01:27:12.480
a post session zoom link here so if you

01:27:12.480 --> 01:27:13.920
want to jump on that you can continue

01:27:13.920 --> 01:27:15.199
this conversation

01:27:15.199 --> 01:27:17.199
um but i'll have to close this down

01:27:17.199 --> 01:27:18.960
beneath any words you'd like to leave us

01:27:18.960 --> 01:27:21.120
with perhaps setting up

01:27:21.120 --> 01:27:23.840
next time you come for part three

01:27:23.840 --> 01:27:26.719
yeah so part three we'll look at

01:27:26.719 --> 01:27:29.679
the deeper structures of the psyche the

01:27:29.679 --> 01:27:31.199
core self

01:27:31.199 --> 01:27:32.480
trauma

01:27:32.480 --> 01:27:34.000
attachment

01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:37.360
uh affect regulation early attachment

01:27:37.360 --> 01:27:39.360
um we'll try to

01:27:39.360 --> 01:27:41.040
try to see how that works that's

01:27:41.040 --> 01:27:43.280
underneath the identity project right

01:27:43.280 --> 01:27:44.800
it's a deeper

01:27:44.800 --> 01:27:48.960
uh it's it's more primordial and more

01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:49.760
uh

01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:51.920
subconscious or unconscious and it's not

01:27:51.920 --> 01:27:54.480
a developmental it's very messy it's a

01:27:54.480 --> 01:27:59.560
very some it's a very messy process

01:28:00.719 --> 01:28:02.719
and uh so i'll post some announcements

01:28:02.719 --> 01:28:03.920
where you can sign up for that in a

01:28:03.920 --> 01:28:06.080
moment but uh benita thank you so much

01:28:06.080 --> 01:28:08.400
for coming again uh knowing that someone

01:28:08.400 --> 01:28:10.560
like you is out there uh teaching this

01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:11.920
stuff at the nice edge of all these

01:28:11.920 --> 01:28:14.800
models um you know makes me less likely

01:28:14.800 --> 01:28:17.679
to despair so uh thank you on behalf of

01:28:17.679 --> 01:28:18.560
the

01:28:18.560 --> 01:28:20.880
stoa and uh i imagine the pop-up school

01:28:20.880 --> 01:28:22.000
students as well

01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:24.639
and so the next session is on the uh

01:28:24.639 --> 01:28:28.080
november 24th at 10 a.m et it's a stone

01:28:28.080 --> 01:28:31.360
patreon or pop-up school session uh and

01:28:31.360 --> 01:28:33.040
i'll plug two more sessions it's

01:28:33.040 --> 01:28:34.719
happening at the stoa

01:28:34.719 --> 01:28:38.560
ken wilbur is coming in on the 22nd

01:28:38.560 --> 01:28:39.840
benita

01:28:39.840 --> 01:28:40.800
uh

01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:42.880
zack stein uh gail bradford from

01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:44.239
extinction rebellion we'll all be asking

01:28:44.239 --> 01:28:46.880
ken questions uh if you'd like to

01:28:46.880 --> 01:28:48.880
come live to that that's 4 p.m eastern

01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:51.679
time on the 22nd still patreon event and

01:28:51.679 --> 01:28:55.760
in about 30 minutes we have peter uh

01:28:55.760 --> 01:28:56.880
i think that they pronounced his last

01:28:56.880 --> 01:28:58.880
name uh money work it's all about this

01:28:58.880 --> 01:28:59.920
cool process of getting right

01:28:59.920 --> 01:29:01.920
relationship money and you can just sign

01:29:01.920 --> 01:29:04.000
up uh on the stove that's here the link

01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:05.040
right there

01:29:05.040 --> 01:29:06.800
uh so that being said uh beneath

01:29:06.800 --> 01:29:08.800
everyone thanks so much for coming to

01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:11.120
the store today thanks everyone really

01:29:11.120 --> 01:29:14.480
enjoyed the questions



## Origins of the Self Part 3: Individuation Beyond Identity

00:00:01.660 --> 00:00:07.340
[Music]

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times

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[Music]

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all right

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you senseful beautiful gangsters

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welcome to the stoa

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uh

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the one and only benita roy is back uh

00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.360
for a follow-up session uh on an

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epic epic session that she had at the

00:00:35.360 --> 00:00:38.079
stoa uh origins of self two

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presentations um

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and then they're pretty awesome i

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imagine most of us watch it here if you

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haven't if you're watching this on

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youtube now i definitely recommend

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checking it out

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and uh today the the formal title this

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is part three uh the formal title or

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subtitle is individuation beyond

00:00:52.239 --> 00:00:54.079
identity but i imagine this is going to

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be more of a short presentation and uh q

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a kind of uh sussing out some of the

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themes and topics that emerged from the

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previous two presentations

00:01:03.199 --> 00:01:04.080
um

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and uh uh benitez and i were talking

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beforehand and uh with the conversation

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got quite alive and so we thought we'd

00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.240
start with that thread um basically just

00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:16.000
comparing the model that bonita

00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:18.320
presented with other models and what's

00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:19.680
kind of like the

00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:22.000
difference between the two um and the

00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.759
term uh epistemic leakage uh came alive

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so i'll maybe just take in uh benita

00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:31.520
there so she can start with contrasting

00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:32.960
her model and the other models of the

00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:35.040
self that are existing in

00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.200
in the noaa sphere

00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:40.560
so welcome back uh

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yeah

00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.240
so i coined this term epistemic leakage

00:01:44.240 --> 00:01:46.320
because i was in conversation with some

00:01:46.320 --> 00:01:48.640
other people doing metapsychology and i

00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:50.799
was saying but i'm not doing what you're

00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:51.840
doing

00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:53.040
and i said

00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:55.439
obviously we could have this person

00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:58.159
system and what i'm presenting and we

00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.960
can translate them like some kind of

00:02:00.960 --> 00:02:03.280
fourier transformation

00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:04.240
um

00:02:04.240 --> 00:02:06.880
because we're both looking at the same

00:02:06.880 --> 00:02:08.800
thing and we have

00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:10.560
access to almost all the same

00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.920
information and we're making logical

00:02:13.920 --> 00:02:16.720
connections and and

00:02:16.720 --> 00:02:19.280
models that represent that

00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:20.239
but

00:02:20.239 --> 00:02:21.760
when you look at this notion of

00:02:21.760 --> 00:02:24.640
epistemic leakage what do i mean by that

00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:28.160
and i'll give a stereotypical example

00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:30.480
and that is for example let's say take

00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:32.959
spiral dynamics everybody probably knows

00:02:32.959 --> 00:02:35.599
something about spiral dynamics

00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:37.680
it creates these levels of different

00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:39.200
cultures

00:02:39.200 --> 00:02:40.160
and

00:02:40.160 --> 00:02:43.599
when you talk to a person and you press

00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.440
them they'll say yes but it's the health

00:02:45.440 --> 00:02:47.920
of the spiral that's important right i

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mean they're not idiots they they

00:02:50.239 --> 00:02:52.319
continue to

00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.560
nuance their model

00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.440
but epistemic leakage means doesn't

00:02:57.440 --> 00:02:59.760
matter what you say your model is

00:02:59.760 --> 00:03:01.440
leaking out

00:03:01.440 --> 00:03:04.080
the world view that there are levels and

00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.560
the people in the past are primitive i

00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.040
mean it just leaks out it doesn't matter

00:03:09.040 --> 00:03:11.440
how much you hedge

00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:13.760
it leaks out and so

00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:16.239
i think a lot of

00:03:16.239 --> 00:03:19.040
so my model says

00:03:19.040 --> 00:03:21.599
can my model be consistent with the

00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.879
message that i want in such a way that

00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:27.920
what leaks out is what i'm trying to say

00:03:27.920 --> 00:03:29.040
right

00:03:29.040 --> 00:03:31.040
so my model

00:03:31.040 --> 00:03:32.400
uh is very

00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.640
intentionally

00:03:34.640 --> 00:03:37.040
uh built on the premise

00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:40.319
that the body is antecedent to the mind

00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:43.360
the mind is antecedent to the psyche the

00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.840
psych you know and and then and that

00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:48.640
nature is antecedent to the body

00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:51.599
there's no emergence there's no like

00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:53.439
there's the body and then the mind

00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.200
emerges i read the other day that

00:03:55.200 --> 00:03:57.120
someone said emergence is

00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.280
is like the scientists used to say and

00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.920
then a miracle happens right i have no

00:04:01.920 --> 00:04:03.680
need to

00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.959
posit a gap between a different layer of

00:04:06.959 --> 00:04:08.959
existence called the mind

00:04:08.959 --> 00:04:10.720
um and so

00:04:10.720 --> 00:04:13.360
so that's something that's kind of

00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.360
different and i think you'll see some of

00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.000
that in um

00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:20.000
the presentation today

00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:20.880
so

00:04:20.880 --> 00:04:21.840
um

00:04:21.840 --> 00:04:23.600
that that's that's

00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:25.919
that's um

00:04:25.919 --> 00:04:28.080
may or may not be helpful but it

00:04:28.080 --> 00:04:30.240
basically outlines

00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:31.759
what i'm doing

00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:33.360
um

00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.600
that is somewhat different

00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:36.560
than

00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.639
other people so for example in the

00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.360
original presentation that downward path

00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:43.680
who the origins of the self

00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:44.400
in

00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:47.360
matter in energy and matter in the biome

00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:50.080
in our animal body this is this is

00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:52.479
expressing itself in

00:04:52.479 --> 00:04:53.600
the self

00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.440
from moment to moment our animal

00:04:55.440 --> 00:04:57.600
nature's in this moment it's not somehow

00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:00.160
laid down in the past done and over with

00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:01.199
and then

00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:03.520
the human emerges it's all that

00:05:03.520 --> 00:05:06.479
assembled together in every moment okay

00:05:06.479 --> 00:05:07.360
so

00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:09.680
this this

00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:12.479
so that's that's how the model works uh

00:05:12.479 --> 00:05:13.840
which is a little different than the

00:05:13.840 --> 00:05:15.520
emergence

00:05:15.520 --> 00:05:17.440
type models uh

00:05:17.440 --> 00:05:19.919
that you see out there

00:05:19.919 --> 00:05:22.960
and maybe i'll just add something um

00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:25.120
what really drew me to this model when i

00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.440
first saw it as like you know like my

00:05:27.440 --> 00:05:28.880
whole life i've been stumbling with like

00:05:28.880 --> 00:05:30.080
all these different traditions like

00:05:30.080 --> 00:05:32.080
psychotherapy buddhism stoicism

00:05:32.080 --> 00:05:34.560
self-help you know all great but

00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.560
there's no coherency amongst all of them

00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:38.080
in terms of the self and then this model

00:05:38.080 --> 00:05:40.320
just kind of like grounded me but there

00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:42.479
was like an intuitive like quality to it

00:05:42.479 --> 00:05:44.240
that when i was just like i sank into it

00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.080
it was like a yes where other models of

00:05:46.080 --> 00:05:47.600
the self there's like a lot of cognitive

00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:50.240
heavy lifting i have to do and then to

00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:52.160
kind of filter the world through and

00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.000
it's almost like your model is like like

00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.280
meant to die eventually or it's like

00:05:55.280 --> 00:05:56.880
okay if it eventually like you know

00:05:56.880 --> 00:05:59.360
blows away in the wind um

00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.919
so yeah that's that was my um kind of

00:06:01.919 --> 00:06:03.520
relationship with it and perhaps that

00:06:03.520 --> 00:06:05.600
pings anything for you

00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.759
yeah the model can get i mean we don't

00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:09.919
get too much into it here

00:06:09.919 --> 00:06:13.759
it has quite a lot of pro provocation in

00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:15.919
it for example

00:06:15.919 --> 00:06:18.479
the model if you really work with it my

00:06:18.479 --> 00:06:20.400
students said this the other day they

00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:22.319
said that means like our assumptions

00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:24.240
about to self create the problems that

00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.479
this psychological method creates that

00:06:26.479 --> 00:06:28.800
then creates more psychology and more

00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.880
distinction the dsm and then we get more

00:06:30.880 --> 00:06:33.520
unhealthy i think one could make a very

00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:37.280
strong case for the atrogenic

00:06:37.280 --> 00:06:40.000
uh problems with the psychotherapeutic

00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.039
field i think that are just like many

00:06:43.039 --> 00:06:45.759
things in the medical field in climate

00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:47.680
we're at a stage where

00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.840
the the

00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:53.199
compounding of knowledge is inside the

00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.720
cause of the problem that it's trying to

00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:57.599
help

00:06:57.599 --> 00:06:59.919
so i believe this is true for trauma

00:06:59.919 --> 00:07:02.800
we'll talk about trauma i believe that

00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:04.880
many people are in

00:07:04.880 --> 00:07:07.680
the stage where their identity is

00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:10.720
attached to autobiography when i grew up

00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.720
people say why are you like this we

00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.039
would never say oh because my father and

00:07:15.039 --> 00:07:17.199
my attachment things that i didn't have

00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:19.919
you would never say that

00:07:19.919 --> 00:07:21.039
this does

00:07:21.039 --> 00:07:22.800
so the whole way that you're

00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:25.160
constructing your identity is

00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:28.240
preconditioned by the theory of trauma

00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.880
in the first place

00:07:30.880 --> 00:07:34.240
this would not be a way to understand

00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:36.880
your identity autobiographically if that

00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:41.120
wasn't pre-loaded in your culture

00:07:41.840 --> 00:07:45.360
so the problem with trauma therapy is

00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.120
does is it helpful or is it an

00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.479
iatrogenic genetic

00:07:50.479 --> 00:07:52.400
problem

00:07:52.400 --> 00:07:54.800
medicine that just makes medicine worse

00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:55.680
right

00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:56.879
so

00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.199
um there's

00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:00.639
working with my model is very

00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:02.879
provocative if you're serious about it

00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:03.599
but

00:08:03.599 --> 00:08:07.039
these are some ways to look at it

00:08:07.039 --> 00:08:08.639
and what the model is trying to do is

00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:10.080
like cut

00:08:10.080 --> 00:08:13.840
the fat out of you know to to to say

00:08:13.840 --> 00:08:15.599
or what i say to somebody else the other

00:08:15.599 --> 00:08:16.879
day i said

00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:19.360
it's not understanding yourself is not

00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:21.360
rocket science

00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.199
you're led to believe you have to

00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:25.199
understand rocket science but this

00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:27.840
notion that peter that you said like

00:08:27.840 --> 00:08:30.639
can i have a map that i can work with

00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:32.880
that i can carry on my life

00:08:32.880 --> 00:08:35.200
get get get on with my life right so

00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.360
this is what the model

00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.440
is it tends to do but it does have these

00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:40.479
other

00:08:40.479 --> 00:08:43.120
barbs in it for uh to be that's

00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:45.920
provocative in in many ways so

00:08:45.920 --> 00:08:47.120
um

00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:48.480
um

00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.640
yeah so

00:08:50.640 --> 00:08:52.839
the fact that many people are at the

00:08:52.839 --> 00:08:55.680
autobiographical stage

00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:58.480
in their identity project

00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.640
coming out of role you know we don't

00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:04.240
just adopt all these preformed roles

00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.120
this lends itself to kind of energy

00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:09.839
that wants to be filled with information

00:09:09.839 --> 00:09:10.720
about

00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.680
why is this the case uh same with um you

00:09:13.680 --> 00:09:16.880
see this in identity part politics why

00:09:16.880 --> 00:09:19.200
is my experience as a black person why

00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.640
is this what this whole big opening to

00:09:22.640 --> 00:09:25.200
the autobiographical self

00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:27.360
gets flooded with

00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:28.800
information right we're in an

00:09:28.800 --> 00:09:31.120
information economy and it creates this

00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.920
cycle of

00:09:32.920 --> 00:09:34.800
preconditioning

00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:37.240
you to the means to make an

00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.279
autobiographical self

00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:41.680
and it can it's yet another project that

00:09:41.680 --> 00:09:44.000
can go on forever

00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.320
and last time we saw a cute

00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.440
clip of of suzanne cooper saying and

00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:50.560
then

00:09:50.560 --> 00:09:53.120
you see it you see the project itself is

00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:57.200
yet another identity project

00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:00.880
it you can't really stand on it

00:10:00.880 --> 00:10:02.800
it's another it's just a more complex

00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:05.519
version of what's been going on before

00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:08.480
so you used to take the me

00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.720
which was a generalized proposition of

00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:12.640
the role you could play

00:10:12.640 --> 00:10:15.680
and now you're taking autobiography

00:10:15.680 --> 00:10:17.200
but the

00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.000
autobiography is the western story maybe

00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.320
it's a joseph campbell story maybe it's

00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:25.120
a movie you saw and a lot of it is this

00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:26.240
you've been

00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.360
giving this whole trauma information so

00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.480
the the stuff that you're adopting to

00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.800
tell your story is itself already a

00:10:34.800 --> 00:10:36.160
generalized

00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:37.600
um is

00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:38.399
is

00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:40.800
preconditioned

00:10:40.800 --> 00:10:41.920
so

00:10:41.920 --> 00:10:43.600
it's not that we don't want to go

00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.760
through that stage we want to avoid

00:10:47.760 --> 00:10:50.000
spending infinite amount of time in that

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:51.920
territory there are so many people that

00:10:51.920 --> 00:10:53.839
know exactly why they're traumatized

00:10:53.839 --> 00:10:55.680
exactly what their problem is exactly

00:10:55.680 --> 00:10:59.360
the history exactly what they do and yet

00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:01.839
it doesn't help them why is that

00:11:01.839 --> 00:11:04.079
why is that

00:11:04.079 --> 00:11:06.720
well i would argue because you just need

00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:08.240
you know like

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.040
time to move on or something um so

00:11:11.040 --> 00:11:14.399
that's the provocation um in it

00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.000
and um

00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.720
there are obviously nuances that um

00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.760
don't fit what i'm saying but um

00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:22.560
yeah

00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:24.640
that's part of it so

00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:26.320
maybe we could look at this presentation

00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:28.160
is quite short and then we can get back

00:11:28.160 --> 00:11:31.120
to the conversation

00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:37.519
um

00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:40.880
let's see what am i doing am i there yes

00:11:40.880 --> 00:11:43.839
okay

00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:47.519
okay

00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.000
um

00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:54.880
you wanna be there

00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:57.279
i want to get real first

00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:01.120
okay so individuation beyond identity i

00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.040
kind of like this screen because it

00:12:03.040 --> 00:12:05.360
shows that this is usually something

00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.519
that happens later on in life there's no

00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.639
hurry uh it's a long-term project

00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.839
but it also shows that there's a sense

00:12:13.839 --> 00:12:15.760
of coming back to

00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:18.800
original experience original ways of

00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:20.800
learning

00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:22.560
like a child

00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:24.639
and some of you i know on this on this

00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:29.839
call can really uh relate to this image

00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.440
yes i'm talking about you

00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.040
um

00:12:35.040 --> 00:12:39.120
but i also like this image oops

00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.200
i also like this image

00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:43.600
because we're going to talk a lot about

00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:45.839
moving from reading the book of your

00:12:45.839 --> 00:12:49.519
identity like an autobiography

00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:53.600
versus emerging emerging as a self from

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.040
the story

00:12:55.040 --> 00:12:57.519
right so i thought this was a really

00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.279
really powerful

00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.120
um

00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.079
image of that

00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:06.399
and it says something

00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.680
that the author is deborn like being

00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:12.079
born

00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:14.639
okay

00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:18.000
these are not in order sorry about that

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.120
um so we'll be talking a lot we're going

00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:22.880
to look at um

00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:24.800
the move from

00:13:24.800 --> 00:13:28.240
um this autobiographical coherence

00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.320
into

00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.639
uh more thinking about the self the

00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.839
individuated self beyond identity we're

00:13:35.839 --> 00:13:36.639
not

00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:38.000
we're not necessarily going to go right

00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:39.920
into there but we're going to look about

00:13:39.920 --> 00:13:43.279
the tension here now

00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.000
one of the things that i've recognized

00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.360
in people moving through here

00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.560
is we go from

00:13:55.760 --> 00:13:56.790
we go from

00:13:56.790 --> 00:13:58.560
[Music]

00:13:58.560 --> 00:14:01.760
uh the me is the general george herbert

00:14:01.760 --> 00:14:04.399
mead called the generalized me

00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:05.360
i'm

00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.399
worried i want to show up like people

00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:10.320
expect me to show up

00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.079
in the role that's appropriate to the

00:14:12.079 --> 00:14:14.560
situation and to do that i have to have

00:14:14.560 --> 00:14:17.519
a generalized category that tells me

00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.440
what to do with my body

00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:21.839
what code i use right code switching we

00:14:21.839 --> 00:14:23.680
all know how to code switch

00:14:23.680 --> 00:14:26.399
so this is a generalized understanding

00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.639
of the cell

00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.680
and what's tricky moving to the eye and

00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:33.199
then beyond

00:14:33.199 --> 00:14:35.920
is we get stuck in this autobiographical

00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:37.199
coherence

00:14:37.199 --> 00:14:40.720
because we moved from the generalized me

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:41.639
to the

00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.199
idealized eye

00:14:45.199 --> 00:14:47.519
and this is a problem because there's no

00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:51.440
such thing as an idealized eye

00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:53.760
and you can start to see your

00:14:53.760 --> 00:14:56.480
autobiography is growing because you're

00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.279
trying to justify why

00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.920
you're not matched up to this idealized

00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:04.240
eye

00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:05.360
okay

00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:06.399
so

00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:08.480
if you take a moment to think for

00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:09.760
example

00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:12.240
of what part of yourself you're working

00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.720
on what aspect of your experience you're

00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:17.279
trying to change

00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:18.240
like me

00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.279
i have a lot of threat energy in my body

00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.880
and i can over compensate that with

00:15:24.880 --> 00:15:26.560
aggression but i also have a lot of

00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:30.160
sporty energy in my body so i i like to

00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:32.399
i like to fight right

00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:35.440
in certain con is that an ideal way to

00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:38.399
be well it happens to be who i am

00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:41.759
now i could psychoanalyze

00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.120
why i'm like this to the cows come home

00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.040
but the reality is

00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:50.160
there's no idealized person

00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:52.560
there's no

00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:54.839
there are we'll look at some

00:15:54.839 --> 00:15:57.519
pre-formative ways in which you become

00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.279
who you are

00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.560
um but at a certain point

00:16:02.560 --> 00:16:04.720
do these things cause problems for me

00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:05.759
yeah

00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:06.560
like

00:16:06.560 --> 00:16:09.040
sometimes i bark at people and people

00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.759
think oh my god i can't believe you did

00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:13.440
that and sometimes

00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.040
i over i mean

00:16:15.040 --> 00:16:18.800
that yeah causes me problems sometimes

00:16:18.800 --> 00:16:21.440
but also has energy when it's in the

00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:22.720
right place

00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.120
that also has a lot of benefits and i'm

00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.920
going to be who i am

00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:30.000
i'm going to be who i am

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:31.680
and so a lot of people are

00:16:31.680 --> 00:16:33.519
constantly trying to clean up i mean

00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.079
there is these are all nuanced clean up

00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:37.199
stuff

00:16:37.199 --> 00:16:39.440
that is who they are and it's this

00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.199
confusion between moving from the

00:16:41.199 --> 00:16:44.800
generalized me to the idealized eye

00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:46.560
you could do this

00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:49.279
at exercise on your own like who do you

00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:51.759
think you're becoming

00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:52.639
right

00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:54.959
and if you become that person

00:16:54.959 --> 00:16:56.880
look around yourself what do you think

00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:59.519
is happening

00:17:00.560 --> 00:17:02.000
and then

00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.440
notice

00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:05.839
notice what's going on in that your

00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.280
imagination of the idealized eye

00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:11.760
now the problem with our society is

00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:14.959
because many people are at this stage

00:17:14.959 --> 00:17:17.120
everybody's checking everybody else to

00:17:17.120 --> 00:17:19.679
be the ideal right so you're too

00:17:19.679 --> 00:17:22.079
aggressive you're too wimpy you're too

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.079
traumatized you're neurotic

00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.640
you're preoccupied you're this nobody's

00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.280
letting anyone be in the general sphere

00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:30.480
of health

00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:31.280
there's

00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:33.600
everyone's trying to get everyone to hit

00:17:33.600 --> 00:17:35.520
the ideal target

00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:37.840
and so we have this self-reinforcing

00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:39.280
loop

00:17:39.280 --> 00:17:40.160
right

00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.440
which which reinforces our own project

00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.840
this absolute lack of tolerance

00:17:47.840 --> 00:17:50.799
in these identity niches

00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.520
for people not to be the ideal

00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:55.840
whatever democrat the ideal critical

00:17:55.840 --> 00:17:58.480
race theorist the ideal whatever

00:17:58.480 --> 00:17:59.360
like

00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:03.360
so this is the major stepping block

00:18:03.360 --> 00:18:06.960
to this movement

00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.440
does that make sense

00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.520
are there any comments any hands up or

00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:13.200
can we move on i just want to make sure

00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.919
that lands

00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:19.679
okay

00:18:19.679 --> 00:18:20.480
so

00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.320
what we want to see here is we want to

00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:25.360
move from biographical coherence into

00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:28.000
what i would call systems thinking and

00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:30.160
that is to understand well

00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.919
what is this self then like how does

00:18:31.919 --> 00:18:33.360
this thing

00:18:33.360 --> 00:18:36.000
how did why is it doing all this stuff

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:37.760
and how does it do all this stuff and

00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:40.160
how did i become who i am and part of it

00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.760
is the cultural system but part of it is

00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:46.400
the self system itself the operating

00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:48.559
system what's under my hood

00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.360
and this is a way to

00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:54.400
move from the story to understanding

00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.640
what's under the hood

00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.919
outside of a story

00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.120
all right let's see if i can work this

00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:04.320
okay

00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:05.679
we're not going to look at that all

00:19:05.679 --> 00:19:06.480
right

00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.720
so

00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.280
were what we want to do is we want to

00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:14.240
say how does the self arise it arises

00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:16.559
from the core

00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:18.160
the core

00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:20.880
sensory motor self that we inherit from

00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.760
animals okay so the everything in your

00:19:23.760 --> 00:19:25.919
self-structure

00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:28.400
the body is antecedent to your

00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.400
self-structure we have to understand

00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.720
this because i know it's a big slide but

00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.120
i'll go through it

00:19:35.120 --> 00:19:38.080
so this is an organism that doesn't have

00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:41.360
a mind or a psyche so a

00:19:41.360 --> 00:19:43.600
middle range animal

00:19:43.600 --> 00:19:44.720
okay

00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.320
and basically

00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:47.760
your

00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:50.480
basic core self

00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.120
is only doing a handful of things except

00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:55.440
it's a miracle how it does

00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.679
so there's a basically a dispositional

00:19:57.679 --> 00:19:59.760
state at any given moment you're

00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:01.679
disposed to

00:20:01.679 --> 00:20:02.799
listen

00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.919
or maybe you're a little irritated or

00:20:05.919 --> 00:20:08.000
maybe you're feeling lustful there's a

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.320
certain state you're moving from because

00:20:10.320 --> 00:20:13.760
you're never homeostatically perfect

00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:16.559
it's always alive there's always

00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:18.480
you know the cat's always itching or

00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.760
scratching or whatever there's internal

00:20:21.760 --> 00:20:24.720
states so the affect streams

00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.240
we talked about them i think on an

00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.080
earlier stoa

00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:31.360
they create your primary dispositional

00:20:31.360 --> 00:20:35.120
state if i'm in a caring mood

00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:36.400
then

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.799
that caring mood is going to shape it's

00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.960
going to prime perception to look for

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.000
things to care for if i'm in this angry

00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.280
mood then

00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:46.720
i'm going to

00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.240
funnel that and to filter my perception

00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.200
okay

00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:51.919
so

00:20:51.919 --> 00:20:54.320
basically we move from primary arousal

00:20:54.320 --> 00:20:56.880
through perception to actions that

00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.120
satisfy

00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:00.640
and then there's

00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.200
a feedback loop that these sensations

00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:05.919
satisfied or maybe they're not satisfied

00:21:05.919 --> 00:21:07.600
a little what's right and what's wrong

00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:10.000
with those actions resets your

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:11.840
dispositional state and it goes around

00:21:11.840 --> 00:21:14.200
and around and around okay this is your

00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:15.760
fundamental

00:21:15.760 --> 00:21:17.120
being

00:21:17.120 --> 00:21:18.880
your fundamental

00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.080
how the body works

00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:25.070
now this is incredibly important

00:21:25.070 --> 00:21:26.480
[Music]

00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:30.799
per these systems perceptual systems

00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:31.679
for

00:21:31.679 --> 00:21:33.039
are

00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:36.400
very complex interdependent holistic

00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.919
participation of all your sensory organs

00:21:39.919 --> 00:21:41.440
but they run

00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.360
two separate streams in your body

00:21:45.360 --> 00:21:47.360
this is also true for animals i'll get

00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:50.640
to that there's an egocentric perceptual

00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:51.840
stream

00:21:51.840 --> 00:21:55.039
that includes your sight your sound your

00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:58.320
taste your kinesthetic your touch and

00:21:58.320 --> 00:22:01.679
there's an allocentric perceptual

00:22:01.679 --> 00:22:03.919
stream

00:22:03.919 --> 00:22:05.600
so for example

00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:08.960
it's this is also true in rats in all

00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.039
animals we get this from our animal

00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.919
nature it's in the body

00:22:13.919 --> 00:22:16.960
when a rat runs a maze

00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.960
let's say it runs the maze it starts off

00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.360
right it's never run this maze before

00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:23.600
it'll go straight then left and left and

00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:25.760
left and left and right and left it'll

00:22:25.760 --> 00:22:27.840
get stuck and then it'll take a right

00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:31.120
instead and goes into to the end and

00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:33.039
gets the treat

00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.520
the next that's its egocentric

00:22:35.520 --> 00:22:37.840
experience it went left left left left

00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:40.080
right left right right left right

00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:43.520
okay the next time it runs that

00:22:43.520 --> 00:22:47.280
maze it doesn't reproduce the mistakes

00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:50.240
it had nose now that i started here and

00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.320
i ended there and there's a straight

00:22:52.320 --> 00:22:54.960
line from here to there

00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:56.000
okay

00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.120
so

00:22:57.120 --> 00:22:59.520
that's because as it's doing this

00:22:59.520 --> 00:23:02.480
egocentric processing it is mapping

00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.159
alice centric it's mapping the

00:23:04.159 --> 00:23:06.559
relationships of the objects to

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.600
themselves

00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:11.120
simultaneously in parallel with its

00:23:11.120 --> 00:23:14.799
relationships to the objects

00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.440
okay this is how

00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:18.720
this is why

00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.679
they don't learn by repeating you know

00:23:21.679 --> 00:23:24.720
just repeat all the same steps

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.200
they get better at it because they have

00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.679
both these processing systems

00:23:29.679 --> 00:23:30.880
all right

00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.120
it's like i used to have this live in

00:23:33.120 --> 00:23:35.520
this house that had

00:23:35.520 --> 00:23:36.880
a big

00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:40.640
room and a big window out onto the

00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:42.080
the yarn

00:23:42.080 --> 00:23:44.400
and they had a dog door behind me and

00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:46.159
the dogs would see a squirrel and they

00:23:46.159 --> 00:23:48.159
would run out the back

00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:49.279
because

00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:50.799
they understood

00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.559
the from this

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.440
this cartesian mapping that even though

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.760
they were seeing the squirrel there the

00:23:57.760 --> 00:24:00.480
way to get it was there right so

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.000
so

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.480
this is extremely important

00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:06.480
for therapy

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.880
and i don't know if i get into it but

00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.720
this distinction is extremely important

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:17.720
because what happens is

00:24:18.159 --> 00:24:20.080
is that is that clear what those two

00:24:20.080 --> 00:24:21.600
words mean that we have these two

00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:24.240
mapping systems okay

00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:27.600
come on so we'll put that up there

00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:29.440
in humans

00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:30.960
you have

00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.200
virtual perceptions

00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.720
so every actual perception you have here

00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.799
you can virtualize it

00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:41.600
so for example if i say to you recite

00:24:41.600 --> 00:24:44.480
the alphabet backwards

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.000
what do you do you have like a little

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.080
jam board there right where you're

00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:51.039
virtualizing the perceptions right

00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.679
this is what the the

00:24:53.679 --> 00:24:55.120
this is what you can do you can

00:24:55.120 --> 00:24:58.000
virtualize sound

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.720
so this is this is the psyche and the

00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.760
mind they're virtual perceptions

00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:05.919
and it works the same way everything

00:25:05.919 --> 00:25:08.400
that's down here is antecedent to what's

00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.840
up there you have primary arousal

00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:15.360
and for most of us when we're aroused

00:25:15.360 --> 00:25:17.520
we're in a thinking game or meaning

00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:20.320
making game we're not running out to do

00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:21.440
sports

00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:24.080
so instead of the actions that satisfy

00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:26.480
going through this perceptual cycle it

00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.840
goes through virtual perceptions

00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.559
and you get micro actions that satisfy

00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.559
so when i say

00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.960
recite the alphabet backwards that's a

00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:39.760
micro action you're actually using

00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:40.840
your

00:25:40.840 --> 00:25:45.760
eyes and your sub threshold

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:47.760
eye movement

00:25:47.760 --> 00:25:49.919
skills the same eye movements you would

00:25:49.919 --> 00:25:51.760
make to read

00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:54.080
on a piece of paper you're making those

00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:57.039
same movements sub threshold

00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:58.640
it's just and your eyes are actually

00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.840
moving so micro actions are actually

00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:04.960
actions in the sensory motor body

00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.440
but they're sub threshold they're very

00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:08.400
very

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.000
uh

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.120
not amplified above a threshold so that

00:26:13.120 --> 00:26:14.960
you actually move

00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.760
if you look at it this is why google can

00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:19.440
create this

00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.559
sensor and put it on your mouse

00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.760
and it can display the thoughts you're

00:26:25.760 --> 00:26:28.000
making in your head speech in your head

00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:29.840
because the thoughts in your head are

00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:32.320
actually micro actions

00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:34.640
in your mouth

00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.440
okay so that's what virtual perceptions

00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.960
are they're the playback through

00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.200
sensory motor patterns

00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.159
that are sub threshold

00:26:46.159 --> 00:26:49.360
so mind is just body at a sub threshold

00:26:49.360 --> 00:26:51.679
level okay but the pattern is saying

00:26:51.679 --> 00:26:54.000
you've got arousal you're going through

00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:56.240
virtual perceptions and you're looking

00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.640
for micro actions that satisfy now

00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.880
here's the interesting thing these

00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.159
virtual perceptions are divided into

00:27:04.159 --> 00:27:08.880
egocentric and allocentric pathways

00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:11.919
this is actually what mcgilchrist is

00:27:11.919 --> 00:27:14.000
talking about when he says right brain

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.600
and left brain because he says it's not

00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:17.440
just in your right brain it's not just

00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:18.799
in your left brain

00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.720
and i can show you

00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.840
research that shows when there's less

00:27:23.840 --> 00:27:27.039
hemispheric or right hemispheric damage

00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.039
they directly affect whether the

00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:31.039
egocentric or the alice-centric

00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:34.159
perceptual systems are online so this is

00:27:34.159 --> 00:27:35.760
actually what

00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:38.799
the mechanism is that mcgill chris is on

00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:40.000
to

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.640
right and

00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:43.600
so

00:27:43.600 --> 00:27:44.720
um

00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:45.520
so

00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:48.159
that maps onto that it's extremely

00:27:48.159 --> 00:27:49.919
important that you see it's just the

00:27:49.919 --> 00:27:52.240
antecedent of the body into virtual

00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.159
perceptions

00:27:54.159 --> 00:27:55.679
we're gonna get to the other stuff so

00:27:55.679 --> 00:27:59.760
let's let's blow this thing up

00:28:00.159 --> 00:28:02.880
the egocentric pathways

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:05.200
are down and in if i say where are you

00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:08.960
you go down and in just like the in the

00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.159
egocentric visual pathways of the animal

00:28:12.159 --> 00:28:16.320
it's my bone me my my body it's down in

00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:19.360
toward my center

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.000
it turns into here is where we make

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:23.440
meaning making

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.080
it's self-referenced so

00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:28.640
what does this mean to me

00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.640
the experience gets a positive or a

00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:35.120
negative valence it's self-referential

00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:39.919
it relates to you your affective style

00:28:39.919 --> 00:28:41.919
so if you process most of your early

00:28:41.919 --> 00:28:45.120
childhood experience in the this

00:28:45.120 --> 00:28:46.000
uh

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.960
uh

00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:49.840
processing system your effectives your

00:28:49.840 --> 00:28:52.799
your attachment style will be effective

00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.159
we're going to show what this means

00:28:54.159 --> 00:28:55.120
later

00:28:55.120 --> 00:28:57.679
and it's related to what uh verveke

00:28:57.679 --> 00:29:00.559
calls salience or relevance realization

00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.000
this is in

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.240
the virtual perceptions they're in the

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.960
egocentric subsystem

00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.679
of your body

00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.200
the psyche is interested in what is good

00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:15.039
and what ought to be the case because

00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:17.600
it's always evaluating through this

00:29:17.600 --> 00:29:19.440
valence this positive or negative

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.640
valence okay

00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:23.840
and then

00:29:23.840 --> 00:29:26.720
the virtual perceptions that are

00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.880
processed through

00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:32.080
the antecedent allocentric perceptual

00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:33.919
pathways

00:29:33.919 --> 00:29:35.679
are

00:29:35.679 --> 00:29:37.679
their function is predictive processing

00:29:37.679 --> 00:29:40.640
so we talked about animals have this an

00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:45.200
animal a new caledonian crow can look at

00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:49.679
a series of tasks to get food he can

00:29:49.679 --> 00:29:52.080
simulate that in his mind and predict at

00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:53.600
first he has to do this and then that

00:29:53.600 --> 00:29:55.520
will happen and this will happen and

00:29:55.520 --> 00:29:57.840
then you let him go he's got some of the

00:29:57.840 --> 00:30:00.000
tasks already figured out because he

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.919
simulated the environment in his mind

00:30:03.919 --> 00:30:06.480
or her mind so this is where that

00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.399
functioning happens

00:30:08.399 --> 00:30:10.159
predictive processing it's other

00:30:10.159 --> 00:30:14.000
referencing so you're you're

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:15.039
you're

00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.520
looking at the relationships between

00:30:17.520 --> 00:30:20.320
other things in the world in space not

00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:22.799
relative to you

00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.440
the valence is neutral of course this

00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.279
hardly ever is the case because we're

00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:29.039
always

00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:31.360
bringing in valence you know these

00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:33.520
things work together always bringing in

00:30:33.520 --> 00:30:34.880
a valence

00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.200
uh into this

00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:39.279
and if you process your early childhood

00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.159
experience mostly through this system

00:30:42.159 --> 00:30:46.640
your your dmma your dynamic maturation

00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:48.320
model of an

00:30:48.320 --> 00:30:50.799
attachment and adaptation will be

00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.120
cognitive

00:30:53.120 --> 00:30:55.679
so these will give you some of these

00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:58.799
psychological typologies

00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.200
um together the egocentric and the

00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.000
allocentric pathways uh you

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.440
um and i and i ran this by greg enriquez

00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:09.760
um this is what he calls a justification

00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:11.840
system okay so you'll hear him talk

00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:14.159
about that a lot it basically boils down

00:31:14.159 --> 00:31:15.039
to

00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:15.760
the

00:31:15.760 --> 00:31:19.480
this these functionings

00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.440
is that is that clear

00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.360
i mean we we can go into the questions i

00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:26.720
just want the terms to be clear and

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.279
we're almost done here

00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:30.640
okay

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.919
so um

00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:36.720
so here's the whole thing now i said

00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:37.679
um

00:31:37.679 --> 00:31:39.600
whether your process here or your

00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:43.360
process here will depend upon

00:31:43.360 --> 00:31:46.000
um your early childhood experiences and

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:47.760
so your early childhood experience is

00:31:47.760 --> 00:31:50.080
according to the dmma

00:31:50.080 --> 00:31:52.399
um i'm just um

00:31:52.399 --> 00:31:54.320
and you see it everywhere dynamic

00:31:54.320 --> 00:31:55.840
nutritional model of attachment

00:31:55.840 --> 00:31:58.159
adaptation there's a handful of things

00:31:58.159 --> 00:32:00.399
going on we

00:32:00.399 --> 00:32:01.440
have

00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:03.840
social skills pro-social skills that

00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.760
come from the animal kingdom of

00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:09.120
dominance and submission now we have to

00:32:09.120 --> 00:32:11.279
avoid putting a human-centric thing

00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.480
these are both pro-social skills both

00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.279
dominance and submission are pro-social

00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:18.399
skills

00:32:18.399 --> 00:32:20.720
they have made the animal kingdom

00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.440
extremely pro-social okay so you could

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.600
say leadership and fellowship it doesn't

00:32:25.600 --> 00:32:28.559
matter this is what the dmma calls in

00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:29.360
that

00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:31.200
and then they say they're effective in

00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.320
cognitive styles we have seen that what

00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:35.200
what

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.919
effective is a little problematic word

00:32:37.919 --> 00:32:39.360
so with

00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:41.200
what i would say they're egocentric and

00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.440
allocentric

00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.360
modes

00:32:45.360 --> 00:32:47.679
so you have you have two types you have

00:32:47.679 --> 00:32:49.760
dominance or take power and you have

00:32:49.760 --> 00:32:52.880
submissive modes uh seek approval

00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.960
and then

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:57.440
i mean if you want to uh figure out your

00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.799
typology my typology isn't here

00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:02.159
um

00:33:02.159 --> 00:33:05.440
um if i think of how i've worked with my

00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:06.480
parents

00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:08.880
um these whether you take power or seek

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.960
approval has to do with uh both uh we

00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.080
we we raise our children in a gendered

00:33:16.080 --> 00:33:17.039
um

00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.760
mythology so it is gendered

00:33:19.760 --> 00:33:20.640
um

00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.039
but also depends upon your siblings like

00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.440
sometimes you have if you have like two

00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:27.279
siblings two

00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.840
that are taker powers you can only kind

00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:33.679
of move yourself into seek approval

00:33:33.679 --> 00:33:36.000
um and then you're

00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:37.279
i don't know if you're born with a

00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:39.840
cognitive or effective uh

00:33:39.840 --> 00:33:42.240
processing mode but these are typologies

00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.440
and this is how you process this

00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:46.480
okay

00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.799
so

00:33:49.600 --> 00:33:52.480
now we're just to end up with a story

00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:54.960
why do these things matter because when

00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.760
you're a kid

00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.880
you go through this process of having to

00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.440
figure out the world

00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:04.799
and

00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.960
the core self has to figure out self

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:08.879
other and world

00:34:08.879 --> 00:34:11.760
so it figures out self by sensory motor

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.079
processes whatever moves with me and i

00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.000
can feel that movement that's me

00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.839
world is what whatever doesn't move

00:34:21.839 --> 00:34:24.079
and there's a there's a point at which

00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:26.320
the child develops a stage where they

00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.079
kick things and then they realize

00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:30.000
they're making things move they have to

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.159
figure out the causal relationships

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:33.839
right you're becoming an autonomous

00:34:33.839 --> 00:34:36.000
person

00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.000
and then they get confused because

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.839
they'll see the toys and they'll kick

00:34:39.839 --> 00:34:40.560
but

00:34:40.560 --> 00:34:42.399
they can't reach it and they don't

00:34:42.399 --> 00:34:44.399
understand why it moved last time and

00:34:44.399 --> 00:34:46.800
eventually they realized have to be near

00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:49.839
things in the world to move them

00:34:49.839 --> 00:34:51.040
okay so

00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:53.919
this is negotiating self in the world in

00:34:53.919 --> 00:34:56.320
these causal relationships they learn

00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.000
that objects

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.640
don't always stay in the last place that

00:35:00.640 --> 00:35:03.680
they were stuff like this all right

00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:06.720
that's one thing but the self other

00:35:06.720 --> 00:35:09.599
investigation this great book by allison

00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:12.160
gopnik called the the scientist in the

00:35:12.160 --> 00:35:13.599
crib

00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:16.480
the sun the the baby has these two

00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:20.079
processing meaning making and and uh

00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.880
cognitive processing and and

00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:26.240
it has a some dominance and submissive

00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:28.400
behaviors it only it has a little

00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:30.640
toolkit right and this is the little

00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:32.400
toolkit it's got to figure out it's

00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.800
actually very beautiful

00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.280
so now you have to figure out the other

00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.359
and you realize you go through a stage

00:35:39.359 --> 00:35:40.960
when you realize that you have to be

00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.359
near things to move them and this is the

00:35:43.359 --> 00:35:44.960
stage where you pull on your mother's

00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.560
face and

00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:48.560
but then one day you realize you're

00:35:48.560 --> 00:35:49.839
doing something and your mother goes

00:35:49.839 --> 00:35:50.640
wait

00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:52.160
wait wait what are you doing and you

00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:53.359
realize

00:35:53.359 --> 00:35:56.560
something i did moved my mother and i

00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:58.960
didn't have to be near her

00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.520
this is very interesting

00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:02.640
so

00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:06.160
this is when you get a

00:36:06.160 --> 00:36:10.720
cognitive style or your early style of

00:36:10.720 --> 00:36:14.079
creating self other relationships did i

00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:16.640
do something that was cute and coy and

00:36:16.640 --> 00:36:18.560
effectively pleasing and you get these

00:36:18.560 --> 00:36:20.320
people who are little performative

00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:22.480
things that move their parents

00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:24.640
or did i say something smart or tell her

00:36:24.640 --> 00:36:27.040
no and take power and get some positive

00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:28.560
feedback

00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:30.079
right so

00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.800
this is what's called trauma

00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:35.760
trauma type it's not trauma it's the ch

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.520
it's the the incredible

00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:41.760
genius of this system that starts out

00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:46.000
with nothing and with a handful of tools

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.560
is working out i mean the children start

00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:51.520
to lie like how far can i deceive and

00:36:51.520 --> 00:36:54.560
all this stuff i mean this is part of

00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:56.800
creating the genius and the intelligence

00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:58.240
that is the human and you're going to

00:36:58.240 --> 00:37:01.119
come out with a dominant style

00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.359
a lot of times with your parents

00:37:03.359 --> 00:37:06.079
you you you can tend to seek approval

00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:08.960
for one take power for the other

00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.000
depending upon the dynamics

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.760
but these are not

00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.599
in themselves

00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:18.640
indications of trauma

00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:22.000
this is a disservice

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.560
to people

00:37:25.359 --> 00:37:27.839
this is how this self grows

00:37:27.839 --> 00:37:29.520
and you're not going to come out being

00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:31.920
an idealized whatever

00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:34.880
nothing because you don't start out

00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.960
exactly in the middle and your

00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.040
experiences and your

00:37:39.040 --> 00:37:41.280
like i said a lot of time birth order

00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.079
all this all this is

00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:46.640
the developmental field in which these

00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:48.160
tools

00:37:48.160 --> 00:37:50.240
you know you have four instruments and

00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:52.400
you're learning to play a very unique

00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.040
symphony

00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:01.359
so

00:38:01.359 --> 00:38:04.079
what's the moral of the story that we

00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:05.599
need

00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.640
because all of this work is antecedent

00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:10.480
in the body

00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.960
we need psychotechnologies that train

00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:15.680
allocentric

00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:18.160
processing of information

00:38:18.160 --> 00:38:20.560
not so much self-referencing

00:38:20.560 --> 00:38:24.079
the infinite worry about the self

00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:27.040
uh if you notice there's this is a i

00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:28.320
didn't

00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.240
oh i can show you that

00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:31.200
so

00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:32.880
the last slide

00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.240
can bring us into the next

00:38:36.240 --> 00:38:37.280
uh

00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:38.960
maybe idea

00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:44.560
um so why is it important because

00:38:44.560 --> 00:38:47.280
we don't want psychotherapy

00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.160
well clinical psychologists have to work

00:38:50.160 --> 00:38:53.119
with the kind of mind that comes to them

00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.680
right but from a metapsychological

00:38:55.680 --> 00:38:56.880
perspective

00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.520
we don't want to say

00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:02.720
the nature of mind is like this

00:39:02.720 --> 00:39:04.800
there's a difference between the kind of

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.880
mind i have and what is the nature of

00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.720
mind there's a difference between the

00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:11.280
kind of psyche we have which are

00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.960
conditioned by

00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.720
rumors of trauma in many cases and the

00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:18.480
nature of psyche

00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.119
we want to try to reboot the system so

00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.560
that we can use the nature of mind

00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:27.200
in new ways to go creatively with the

00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:29.119
nature of mind is this predictive

00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:30.560
processing

00:39:30.560 --> 00:39:33.440
and the nature of psyche is imaginative

00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.800
meaning making

00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:38.240
unconditioned by

00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:40.839
what's already in the hopper

00:39:40.839 --> 00:39:43.520
um for example

00:39:43.520 --> 00:39:44.720
uh

00:39:44.720 --> 00:39:47.760
um in our culture bullying is a big

00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:50.320
problem in some cultures it's neutral in

00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.320
some cultures they encourage in japanese

00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:54.839
culture they encourage bullying so is

00:39:54.839 --> 00:39:57.359
bullying positive or negative valence

00:39:57.359 --> 00:39:58.400
these are

00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.680
the kinds of psyches you have

00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:03.119
um

00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.119
so we need to make that distinction and

00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:07.680
we're not good at it for example

00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:09.280
you'll hear

00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.359
that the nature of the psyche is

00:40:11.359 --> 00:40:13.119
archetypal

00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:16.079
but that's not true archetypal

00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:18.800
psychological archetypes only appear in

00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:20.720
the human condition

00:40:20.720 --> 00:40:23.359
relatively recently after the axial age

00:40:23.359 --> 00:40:24.960
indigenous cultures don't have

00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.200
archetypal stories they have allegorical

00:40:27.200 --> 00:40:29.520
stories so we need to be careful

00:40:29.520 --> 00:40:30.960
that we don't

00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:34.400
mistake the kind of psyche we have with

00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.960
the nature of psyche

00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.760
and so um

00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.720
what i'm proposing is that we need a

00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:44.720
definition of the real

00:40:44.720 --> 00:40:46.800
that's based upon

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.760
what the body does

00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.359
and once grounded in the real

00:40:53.359 --> 00:40:56.400
then we can move from there

00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.720
to evaluating what is good

00:40:58.720 --> 00:41:01.359
and what is true

00:41:01.359 --> 00:41:03.280
and that they need to be have

00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:06.800
antecedents in the body

00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:08.960
that they are not psychic and mental

00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:10.079
projects

00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:13.960
their embodied projects

00:41:17.140 --> 00:41:20.300
[Music]

00:41:22.720 --> 00:41:24.480
awesome

00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:26.720
super cool

00:41:26.720 --> 00:41:28.960
so anyone has any questions um

00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.800
either put in the chat or do the the

00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:32.960
race hand feature

00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:34.400
um

00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:37.280
let's see if anyone rhea you have a

00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.599
question

00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:42.960
ria

00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:45.440
although i understand the words

00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.920
egocentric and allocentric could you

00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:50.400
give some examples bonnie about

00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.119
is you said we need to work with clients

00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:54.000
in an

00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.040
allocated way like

00:41:57.040 --> 00:41:59.280
what does that mean

00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:00.240
yeah

00:42:00.240 --> 00:42:01.200
so

00:42:01.200 --> 00:42:03.200
many insights we have are in this

00:42:03.200 --> 00:42:06.800
direction like the difference between

00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:10.240
doing respace practice dialogically or

00:42:10.240 --> 00:42:14.480
using paper and having people draw on it

00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.440
drawing on physical drawing and using

00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:19.359
their perception like they're just

00:42:19.359 --> 00:42:22.160
visual ego you know just regular like

00:42:22.160 --> 00:42:24.079
perception versus

00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.079
the more inwards

00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:28.839
the experiences the more attempts to go

00:42:28.839 --> 00:42:32.640
to egocentric so anything that uses

00:42:32.640 --> 00:42:37.040
your exterior perception is allocentric

00:42:37.040 --> 00:42:40.560
anything out there you know that's like

00:42:40.560 --> 00:42:41.359
like

00:42:41.359 --> 00:42:43.760
uh that's why horsework works

00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:44.960
because there's like a big horse in

00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.280
front of you and you and you have to pay

00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.480
attention

00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.560
some people don't some people i have to

00:42:50.560 --> 00:42:52.160
tell them like

00:42:52.160 --> 00:42:53.680
didn't you see you were in danger and

00:42:53.680 --> 00:42:54.720
they're like

00:42:54.720 --> 00:42:56.640
no what happened i said well how do you

00:42:56.640 --> 00:42:58.319
know you how would you know if you're in

00:42:58.319 --> 00:43:00.079
danger and they're like i go inside and

00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:01.920
see if i feel like i'm in danger and i'm

00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:04.960
like no maybe you could use your eyes to

00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:06.880
see if you're in danger

00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:07.839
um

00:43:07.839 --> 00:43:08.640
so

00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:12.079
um i use you know for me i use the

00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:14.000
technique of still hunting you know

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.079
where you put your eyes have the energy

00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.640
go out into the room meditate with your

00:43:18.640 --> 00:43:23.200
eyes open broad gaze tultic gaze

00:43:23.200 --> 00:43:24.560
emdr

00:43:24.560 --> 00:43:27.119
works with allocentric visual processing

00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:29.040
that's why it works right watch this

00:43:29.040 --> 00:43:32.079
watch this while you're processing right

00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:33.040
um

00:43:33.040 --> 00:43:36.000
i think there's a lot of

00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.839
techniques that

00:43:37.839 --> 00:43:39.760
have this feature but we don't know that

00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:42.720
that's why they work right

00:43:42.720 --> 00:43:43.760
um

00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:44.640
so

00:43:44.640 --> 00:43:48.000
anything that it's also why

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.440
real world projects can help solve some

00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.640
of these interior problems because

00:43:54.640 --> 00:43:58.079
you're in a mode where you're working in

00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.079
in the world you're you're working with

00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.319
things and how they relate to the to the

00:44:02.319 --> 00:44:04.240
world

00:44:04.240 --> 00:44:07.200
now it is true you can use

00:44:07.200 --> 00:44:10.079
you can have an allocentric

00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:12.960
orientation to your interior life

00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:17.119
it's just very hard to train somebody

00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:19.280
with that it has to do you can train

00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:21.280
with eye gazing

00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:24.640
and it's basically what people

00:44:24.640 --> 00:44:25.839
uh

00:44:25.839 --> 00:44:28.400
like when i s when i said that jam board

00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:30.400
see how you're looking at your jam board

00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.560
so it's as if it's out there and it's

00:44:32.560 --> 00:44:36.880
not in here in my mind it's not me of me

00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.400
in me

00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.240
um

00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:43.200
so um

00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:48.079
yeah this notion of

00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:50.240
relating things of the world with each

00:44:50.240 --> 00:44:51.040
other

00:44:51.040 --> 00:44:54.480
not constantly referencing

00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:57.280
meaning to myself

00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:59.680
those those kinds of things

00:44:59.680 --> 00:45:02.400
is it helpful no

00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:05.119
um i'm just thinking of

00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:08.160
one client who's like

00:45:08.160 --> 00:45:09.280
let's say

00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:10.480
always

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.240
anxious

00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:14.800
um and always

00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:16.839
referencing

00:45:16.839 --> 00:45:18.560
to

00:45:18.560 --> 00:45:20.240
what is good what should i do what

00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:22.640
should i say like

00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:24.880
um

00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:30.960
so the referencing to

00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:33.359
even

00:45:33.359 --> 00:45:36.720
what it means to be

00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:39.119
in peace or in rest

00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.599
she doesn't know it

00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:46.920
so i know this one woman um

00:45:47.040 --> 00:45:48.960
i'm not gonna get her name right xj

00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:51.440
works for her but

00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.280
a lot of this work

00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:55.119
because because like you just described

00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:56.880
it she's already in a pit you know it's

00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:58.800
very hard when they're already in the

00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:02.560
mood a lot of this work is trying to

00:46:02.560 --> 00:46:05.520
find when that happens and if you watch

00:46:05.520 --> 00:46:07.359
people

00:46:07.359 --> 00:46:09.760
they'll go like this their bodies will

00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:11.520
drop in their

00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:13.599
chest will sink in and they're lost

00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:17.040
they're lost inside the

00:46:17.040 --> 00:46:19.280
the self-referential psychic meaning

00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:21.440
making loop of what's good and the

00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:23.839
valence right so a lot of it could be

00:46:23.839 --> 00:46:26.960
posture like

00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.000
see if she can go on with that script in

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.920
a certain kind of posture sometimes i

00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.400
have people walk like a peacock now some

00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.599
people can't actually adopt that posture

00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.760
they literally can't

00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.040
they like they can't so

00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:44.560
but

00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:45.680
that's

00:46:45.680 --> 00:46:48.880
a hope you know like to place ourselves

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:50.800
in uh

00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:51.599
yeah

00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.400
or um

00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:57.520
sometimes i'll ask like i think you saw

00:46:57.520 --> 00:46:59.280
me do it like i want you to answer this

00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:00.319
question

00:47:00.319 --> 00:47:03.839
but i don't want you to move your eyes

00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.319
and then you ask the question like this

00:47:06.319 --> 00:47:08.839
little thing if you don't move your eyes

00:47:08.839 --> 00:47:11.359
because people want to go in to answer

00:47:11.359 --> 00:47:12.880
the question so these

00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:16.160
are tiny little micro phenomena

00:47:16.160 --> 00:47:17.839
but you have to get it at the micro

00:47:17.839 --> 00:47:19.200
phenomenon because once they're in

00:47:19.200 --> 00:47:22.000
they're lost the thing is got a lot of

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.680
loopiness to it

00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:24.640
so

00:47:24.640 --> 00:47:26.960
i don't find my

00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:30.800
my suggestions very helpful or hopeful

00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:32.480
to tell you the truth

00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:33.520
um

00:47:33.520 --> 00:47:36.559
at a certain stage of

00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:40.000
this the thing has got so much energy um

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:43.119
so i want to i want to honor that but i

00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:45.280
know that some of people like in the

00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:47.040
pop-up school have been doing just the

00:47:47.040 --> 00:47:49.359
gazing thing and have found

00:47:49.359 --> 00:47:51.359
a big difference just in

00:47:51.359 --> 00:47:55.359
how they're processing meaning um

00:47:55.359 --> 00:47:56.079
so

00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:57.040
uh

00:47:57.040 --> 00:47:59.359
yeah

00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:02.319
it's not only the eyes but that's the

00:48:02.319 --> 00:48:04.720
easy we're such visual people that it's

00:48:04.720 --> 00:48:07.599
easier to sometimes

00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:09.680
the collapse can happen well i don't

00:48:09.680 --> 00:48:11.520
know how to i don't know how to collapse

00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:14.079
myself without my eyes so for me

00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:16.319
um

00:48:18.319 --> 00:48:22.319
i can imagine if you look at adhd i mean

00:48:22.319 --> 00:48:25.680
this is fascinating this whole is like

00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:28.800
i saw this video that shows they ask a

00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.440
little boy a question and a little girl

00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:33.599
the same question like what do you like

00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.119
about school what do you like about

00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:37.359
school and the little boy's like

00:48:37.359 --> 00:48:39.280
well i like some things about school but

00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:40.880
not other things and the little girl

00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.040
goes

00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:46.160
she's inside adhd is not attention

00:48:46.160 --> 00:48:49.760
deficit it's attention direction it's

00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:52.240
the direction the attention goes to

00:48:52.240 --> 00:48:54.800
answer the question is the problem this

00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:57.920
changes the whole field

00:48:57.920 --> 00:48:59.760
like i saw that and it's like that's

00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:03.359
what she does she goes in

00:49:03.359 --> 00:49:05.920
not out right and she and they're not

00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:08.559
necessarily introverted because a lot of

00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:12.079
them are hyperactive and performative

00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:16.079
but they're not in the world

00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:20.000
they're in the loopiness of the self

00:49:20.240 --> 00:49:21.760
so um

00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:23.200
there's a lot of

00:49:23.200 --> 00:49:26.720
uh neuroscience now that understands

00:49:26.720 --> 00:49:27.520
the

00:49:27.520 --> 00:49:29.599
these allocentric versus egocentric

00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:31.760
pathways and how

00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.400
damage to different parts of the brain

00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.160
are so you know there might be some

00:49:36.160 --> 00:49:38.400
neural correlates to it i don't know

00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.480
i'm not big on that kind of reduction

00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:45.200
but i think these this model gives us

00:49:45.200 --> 00:49:47.440
it both simplifies and gives us new

00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:49.520
kinds of questions and

00:49:49.520 --> 00:49:51.119
and approaches to

00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:53.920
play around with

00:49:54.319 --> 00:49:55.920
i know sheila has a hand raised but

00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:57.680
peter i don't know if you're calling on

00:49:57.680 --> 00:49:58.960
people

00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.359
yeah um i might have a follow-up for

00:50:01.359 --> 00:50:03.839
this question um

00:50:03.839 --> 00:50:04.880
and

00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:06.079
you know maybe i'll just kind of see

00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:07.359
some of the processing i've done in the

00:50:07.359 --> 00:50:08.559
past with this maybe you can kind of

00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:10.319
understand it through the model it was

00:50:10.319 --> 00:50:11.920
funny that you mentioned uh george

00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:13.680
herbert mead because his model of the

00:50:13.680 --> 00:50:15.200
generalized other was referred to

00:50:15.200 --> 00:50:17.520
general as me was quite helpful uh for

00:50:17.520 --> 00:50:20.079
me to process some of the kind of the

00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:22.079
shame areas of my life

00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:23.440
um

00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:25.359
and it's almost like when i lose contact

00:50:25.359 --> 00:50:26.960
with the diamond or i have to say

00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:28.800
demonic you know interference it's

00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.640
usually like some script emerge or i

00:50:30.640 --> 00:50:32.880
bump into it like oh i'm not good enough

00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:34.400
because i don't have a house or i don't

00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:35.839
have like make this much money or i

00:50:35.839 --> 00:50:37.359
don't have kids right now

00:50:37.359 --> 00:50:38.480
and then it's like then i lose

00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:40.079
connection with that thing uh what i

00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:42.079
call the demon or the source or whatever

00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:44.319
uh but it was great because getting a

00:50:44.319 --> 00:50:45.920
sensitivity was like i was getting like

00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:47.839
the contours of the generalized other

00:50:47.839 --> 00:50:49.200
you know like this is like the prison

00:50:49.200 --> 00:50:51.280
that i was in and then i could just like

00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:53.280
process it and it got released and then

00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.119
like that that kind of loopiness that

00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:56.640
you referred to just kind of went away

00:50:56.640 --> 00:50:58.160
and i i don't think i have it as much

00:50:58.160 --> 00:50:59.040
now

00:50:59.040 --> 00:51:00.000
um

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:01.599
so yeah i'm curious if you could just

00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:03.119
like maybe under help me understand that

00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:06.720
through through what you presented today

00:51:06.720 --> 00:51:09.760
yeah so let me do a little experiment

00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:12.640
thought experiment with you

00:51:12.640 --> 00:51:14.480
i want you to think of someone we'll

00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:16.319
just what did you say a house and what

00:51:16.319 --> 00:51:18.720
was the other thing on your list there

00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:20.800
like not owning a home not having kids

00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:23.040
okay home and kids

00:51:23.040 --> 00:51:24.960
i want you to think of someone that has

00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.760
a home in kids

00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:30.480
would you trade your life for them the

00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:32.960
whole package not just the home and kids

00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:34.720
who they are who they live with what

00:51:34.720 --> 00:51:36.559
they are what they say who they become

00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:37.920
what they what they do with their would

00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:39.680
you trade your life for them

00:51:39.680 --> 00:51:43.040
no no that's why you're not that

00:51:43.040 --> 00:51:44.800
you can ask this question to people in

00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:45.839
prison

00:51:45.839 --> 00:51:47.440
and they'd be like the man they're the

00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:49.520
man but they would not trade their life

00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:51.839
to be bill gates if you ask them the

00:51:51.839 --> 00:51:54.400
whole package live with that woman

00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:56.800
be that type of person no you notice

00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:01.119
you're choosing not to be that person

00:52:01.359 --> 00:52:02.880
you're choosing you're the way you are

00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:04.720
because you've chosen to be the way you

00:52:04.720 --> 00:52:06.880
are despite all that other stuff that of

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:10.400
course that's in everybody's head right

00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:12.559
if you had to choose the whole package i

00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:16.000
noticed this when i went to college

00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:18.880
right because i came from a parochial

00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:20.640
uh middle class

00:52:20.640 --> 00:52:23.040
blue collar class i went to a very

00:52:23.040 --> 00:52:25.119
fancy college everybody had gone to prep

00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:26.880
school

00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:30.880
and i realized that the reason why class

00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:33.040
identities don't move very fast it's

00:52:33.040 --> 00:52:35.119
because i didn't want to be like them

00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:37.200
like if it was rich it was to be like

00:52:37.200 --> 00:52:38.800
them in the way they were pretentious

00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:40.319
and the way they acted to their parents

00:52:40.319 --> 00:52:41.359
like

00:52:41.359 --> 00:52:42.319
no

00:52:42.319 --> 00:52:43.760
i didn't want to be like them maybe i

00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:45.920
want to be rich i didn't want to be like

00:52:45.920 --> 00:52:48.240
them

00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:50.640
right so

00:52:50.640 --> 00:52:53.280
so this is quite deep

00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.839
nobody maybe one or two people in the

00:52:55.839 --> 00:52:56.880
world

00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:01.839
but nobody would actually change lives

00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:04.960
it's just the story

00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.480
is that helpful

00:53:09.839 --> 00:53:12.400
now i could think of coming back in

00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:14.079
another life and doing something

00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:15.359
differently

00:53:15.359 --> 00:53:17.599
but that would still be me i mean there

00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:20.319
are things you can't do everything

00:53:20.319 --> 00:53:22.880
right you can't you can't do everything

00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:25.440
all at once so there are some things you

00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.520
realize i did more of this and less of

00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:29.680
that

00:53:29.680 --> 00:53:31.119
maybe in a different life i would have

00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:33.119
done more of this and less of that

00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:34.720
that's different because you're still

00:53:34.720 --> 00:53:37.200
yourself right

00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:37.920
but

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.440
this other thing the way we beat up

00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:42.160
ourselves is not

00:53:42.160 --> 00:53:43.280
is not

00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.640
it's not real

00:53:44.640 --> 00:53:46.079
because you wouldn't choose the whole

00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:48.559
package

00:53:48.640 --> 00:53:50.079
i think i swapped lice with you for a

00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:52.640
few days benita and i'm just there for

00:53:52.640 --> 00:53:56.000
that it's not doesn't

00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:58.079
it's even an exam i've done this thought

00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.040
experiment with me about being younger

00:54:01.040 --> 00:54:03.680
well yes i'd like to be this person with

00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:06.400
a younger person's vitality but if i had

00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:08.160
a younger person's vitality i wouldn't

00:54:08.160 --> 00:54:10.640
be this person i mean i'd be

00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:12.720
did i have so much vitality i'd be doing

00:54:12.720 --> 00:54:14.800
endurance race writing again do i want

00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:17.200
to do endurance for us right i mean like

00:54:17.200 --> 00:54:19.359
everything comes as a package

00:54:19.359 --> 00:54:24.000
right it's a holistic package so

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.839
that's that's something to keep in mind

00:54:27.839 --> 00:54:29.760
allegorical versus

00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.359
archetypal

00:54:31.359 --> 00:54:32.480
so

00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:34.319
um

00:54:34.319 --> 00:54:36.400
cheryl i don't know i jumped to this i

00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:37.839
jumped out of order and then maybe we

00:54:37.839 --> 00:54:40.960
should go to shayla but so archetypes

00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:44.319
are based upon mythopoetic

00:54:44.319 --> 00:54:45.680
polarities

00:54:45.680 --> 00:54:47.680
right so there's they're quite highly

00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:49.040
valence there's

00:54:49.040 --> 00:54:51.680
uh feminine and masculine

00:54:51.680 --> 00:54:54.000
there are um

00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:56.319
and now there's a range

00:54:56.319 --> 00:54:59.440
early in our uh cultural evolution

00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:00.880
everything was allegorical so

00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:03.839
allegorical is like an indigenous story

00:55:03.839 --> 00:55:06.079
like an indigenous story this is a real

00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:08.160
one coyote goes down to the river and

00:55:08.160 --> 00:55:10.640
extends his penis into the into the

00:55:10.640 --> 00:55:12.240
water and he gets one of the ducks

00:55:12.240 --> 00:55:14.640
pregnant but the duck it's stuck and so

00:55:14.640 --> 00:55:17.520
then he has people cut take grass and

00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:20.960
cut his penis and then he goes and and

00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:23.200
the duck he made it with is sick of

00:55:23.200 --> 00:55:24.799
course she's having a baby and then he

00:55:24.799 --> 00:55:27.280
goes in and in order to

00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:29.359
help her he has sex with her a million

00:55:29.359 --> 00:55:32.000
times and nobody else is able to watch

00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:33.119
and then

00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:36.079
he's considered a great medicine man and

00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:38.799
so then he shape-shifts and into a woman

00:55:38.799 --> 00:55:41.680
and he has sex with the chief and steals

00:55:41.680 --> 00:55:43.040
his

00:55:43.040 --> 00:55:44.160
son

00:55:44.160 --> 00:55:45.119
and

00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:48.720
then he's about to eat the sun and the

00:55:48.720 --> 00:55:51.280
other animals come and they

00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:52.880
their son's about to kill him the other

00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:55.440
animals come and they they save coyote

00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:58.079
even though he's a horrible

00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:00.640
horrible trickster and nobody knows why

00:56:00.640 --> 00:56:04.079
he saved them okay that's allegory

00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:05.040
they're not

00:56:05.040 --> 00:56:07.920
joseph campbell's stories of death and

00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:10.559
resurrection there's no feminine and

00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:13.280
masculine and these great

00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:16.240
categorical

00:56:16.240 --> 00:56:17.520
this comes

00:56:17.520 --> 00:56:20.000
into our culture only around the

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:21.520
acceleration now if you look at the

00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:24.240
early mythologies they're same way zeus

00:56:24.240 --> 00:56:26.559
goes into this heaven and then he comes

00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:29.280
back as an ox and he rapes his daughter

00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:30.799
and the daughter becomes a tree there's

00:56:30.799 --> 00:56:32.880
no good or bad in the allegories there's

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:35.839
no good or bad in the early mythologies

00:56:35.839 --> 00:56:37.839
but later on you get these archetypes

00:56:37.839 --> 00:56:40.079
that are heavily balanced

00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.160
even though we say they're not they are

00:56:42.160 --> 00:56:44.880
they're heavily balanced so

00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:47.359
the uh the nature of the psyche

00:56:47.359 --> 00:56:49.119
there's there's

00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:51.200
there is not archetypal that's not the

00:56:51.200 --> 00:56:52.880
bottom of the psyche

00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:55.440
and not even allegorical but certain

00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.359
allegory is is

00:56:57.359 --> 00:57:01.920
deeper in the stack than than archetypes

00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:06.400
oh do you want to add anything that sure

00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:12.559
yeah there's um

00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.040
something feels very resonant in what

00:57:15.040 --> 00:57:18.000
you just described and

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.079
i think i'm i'm curious about

00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:23.920
what

00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:27.119
what shifts when we move

00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:28.319
from

00:57:28.319 --> 00:57:29.520
these very

00:57:29.520 --> 00:57:31.359
i guess an

00:57:31.359 --> 00:57:33.520
archetypal way of

00:57:33.520 --> 00:57:37.440
experiencing psyche in these polarities

00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:38.720
into

00:57:38.720 --> 00:57:40.960
this kind of dream like

00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:44.799
allegorical landscape that you described

00:57:44.799 --> 00:57:47.200
in terms of just like world building and

00:57:47.200 --> 00:57:50.319
ethics actually

00:57:50.720 --> 00:57:55.559
yeah so you hit the nail on the head

00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:57.680
when you're doing this process that i'm

00:57:57.680 --> 00:57:59.599
involved i'm doing like the body's

00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:01.520
antecedent to the mind and nature's

00:58:01.520 --> 00:58:04.319
antecedent to the body

00:58:04.319 --> 00:58:07.920
there's a bottleneck in this process and

00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:11.359
that is that when we look at nature from

00:58:11.359 --> 00:58:14.000
an allegorical lens or just nature as

00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:17.440
itself we see that it has no moral or

00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:19.680
ethical foundation

00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:21.520
okay

00:58:21.520 --> 00:58:24.200
hartshorn said nature is filled with

00:58:24.200 --> 00:58:26.559
incommensurable goods so it's good for

00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:29.119
the fox to eat the rabbit so she can go

00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:31.200
home and feed her babies but it's good

00:58:31.200 --> 00:58:33.680
for the rabbit to escape so she can come

00:58:33.680 --> 00:58:36.160
home and feed her babies these are just

00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:38.880
incommensurable goods

00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:41.920
now what's fascinating this is like

00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:46.480
weird stuff but what's fascinating is

00:58:46.720 --> 00:58:48.480
this is also

00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:49.359
a

00:58:49.359 --> 00:58:53.599
uh religious or theological question

00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:55.680
and it's in graber's book with the

00:58:55.680 --> 00:58:57.520
amerindians

00:58:57.520 --> 00:58:58.720
because

00:58:58.720 --> 00:59:02.160
some kings and chief stems in the in the

00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:04.640
amerindians or these other other

00:59:04.640 --> 00:59:08.160
kingdoms in early culture

00:59:08.160 --> 00:59:08.960
they

00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:09.839
were

00:59:09.839 --> 00:59:12.240
the people that established the laws for

00:59:12.240 --> 00:59:14.559
everybody else so everybody else under

00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:17.200
the king was equal

00:59:17.200 --> 00:59:19.440
because they were subservient to these

00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:20.640
laws

00:59:20.640 --> 00:59:23.839
the king himself was not subservient to

00:59:23.839 --> 00:59:26.400
the laws so in order

00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:28.319
to make that

00:59:28.319 --> 00:59:32.240
reality they did horrible things

00:59:32.240 --> 00:59:34.640
like kill the virgins and human

00:59:34.640 --> 00:59:37.359
sacrifice and when they died they killed

00:59:37.359 --> 00:59:38.880
all their relatives

00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:40.880
so he argues that

00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:42.640
the king is doing

00:59:42.640 --> 00:59:45.640
ostensibly

00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.640
things to prove he's above the law this

00:59:48.640 --> 00:59:52.160
is how it ritualizes in our culture

00:59:52.160 --> 00:59:54.960
okay because of this

00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.079
this

00:59:56.079 --> 00:59:59.119
this point in our culture history that's

00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:02.640
not figured out yet is are where does

01:00:02.640 --> 01:00:05.680
ethics come from is it made up

01:00:05.680 --> 01:00:07.520
well it's not in nature if you really

01:00:07.520 --> 01:00:10.400
see it's not in nature now this is also

01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:12.799
a meditation kierkegaard had

01:00:12.799 --> 01:00:15.839
he meditated on when god told

01:00:15.839 --> 01:00:17.920
what you would call abraham to climb the

01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:20.480
mountain and kill his son

01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:23.760
now you see our gods are monstrous

01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:25.599
art just like the kings and the

01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:28.960
amerindians our gods are monstrous they

01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:33.040
send their only son to be persecuted

01:00:33.040 --> 01:00:35.599
they create people who don't have the

01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:38.640
capacity to distinguish good and evil

01:00:38.640 --> 01:00:42.000
and then they're forever damned our gods

01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:44.640
are monstrous because they're above the

01:00:44.640 --> 01:00:45.839
law

01:00:45.839 --> 01:00:49.359
which means they're like nature

01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:52.079
so this right at this point if you're

01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:54.960
doing my model over time you have to

01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:57.200
come

01:00:57.200 --> 01:00:59.200
you need to resolve

01:00:59.200 --> 01:01:01.680
what because what i'm asking you to say

01:01:01.680 --> 01:01:04.000
the body's antecedent to mind and the

01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:06.240
body is nature

01:01:06.240 --> 01:01:09.119
and that's the

01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:12.319
bottleneck the existential bottleneck is

01:01:12.319 --> 01:01:14.960
right there right where you're asking

01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:18.160
we're not going to go into it but that's

01:01:18.160 --> 01:01:19.520
the journey

01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:21.760
that

01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:23.839
it's a it's an intuitive question

01:01:23.839 --> 01:01:26.400
because that's what's operating

01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:29.280
in the basis at the fundamental basis of

01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:31.920
our psyche

01:01:33.680 --> 01:01:36.000
does that make sense like it's a lot but

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:40.640
it's like a big mind kind of

01:01:40.640 --> 01:01:42.000
yeah i just want to dive down that

01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:43.680
rabbit hole that he just opened up right

01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:46.880
there um but can you see we're also

01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.359
dealing with it in our cultural history

01:01:49.359 --> 01:01:54.480
in theology i mean this is there

01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:01.280
um

01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:03.119
shayla you had a your hand up for a

01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.640
while yeah ask your question

01:02:06.640 --> 01:02:09.520
thanks peter

01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:11.760
yeah that was quite a bottleneck that

01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:13.760
you just i mean a rabbit hole you just

01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:16.559
opened up oh my god

01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:19.039
there's a lot of rabbit holes here buddy

01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:22.160
but i just wanna i i just i was really

01:02:22.160 --> 01:02:23.920
struck by what you said about the

01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:26.400
idealized self

01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:27.200
and

01:02:27.200 --> 01:02:30.319
i can feel over time working with this

01:02:30.319 --> 01:02:32.160
model with you

01:02:32.160 --> 01:02:35.440
you're dismantling like it's it is very

01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:37.039
provocative

01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:40.160
and you're dismantling many um

01:02:40.160 --> 01:02:43.440
dimensions of our current psychological

01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:47.200
projects and spiritual both

01:02:47.200 --> 01:02:49.760
because there's a lot of becoming

01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:50.720
you know

01:02:50.720 --> 01:02:52.240
in in

01:02:52.240 --> 01:02:54.160
in both of those projects that you're

01:02:54.160 --> 01:02:58.079
subtly for me taking apart you know to

01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:01.520
do with the idealized

01:03:01.839 --> 01:03:03.599
and so

01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:05.680
part of what i noticed the very first

01:03:05.680 --> 01:03:07.839
time i heard this model and you talked

01:03:07.839 --> 01:03:11.440
about the core self

01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:13.599
and how it functions

01:03:13.599 --> 01:03:17.119
directly from nature and from the body

01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:21.359
and that we can't really transform

01:03:21.359 --> 01:03:23.200
unless we're in touch with that core

01:03:23.200 --> 01:03:24.400
self

01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:26.799
and then you talked about how our our

01:03:26.799 --> 01:03:28.079
our you know

01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:29.200
our

01:03:29.200 --> 01:03:30.559
ego structure

01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.839
is designed to disconnect us from that

01:03:33.839 --> 01:03:36.400
and that many many humans live their

01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:37.839
life

01:03:37.839 --> 01:03:40.720
never coming back into any real

01:03:40.720 --> 01:03:44.480
direct contact with the core self

01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:47.520
so i i when you said that it opened up

01:03:47.520 --> 01:03:49.039
in my body

01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:51.520
you know and knowing i've had for a long

01:03:51.520 --> 01:03:52.640
time

01:03:52.640 --> 01:03:55.200
and when i'm working with my clients now

01:03:55.200 --> 01:03:57.200
i i notice like

01:03:57.200 --> 01:04:00.160
their eyes i noticed so many things that

01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:01.680
are going on

01:04:01.680 --> 01:04:03.599
that i never noticed before but i think

01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:05.920
the biggest thing is

01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:06.880
um

01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:08.000
how

01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:10.400
there's so much in our culture right now

01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:14.640
about trauma like it's everywhere you go

01:04:14.640 --> 01:04:17.520
and there is a way that

01:04:17.520 --> 01:04:19.200
the the um

01:04:19.200 --> 01:04:21.119
the trauma culture

01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:24.640
is perpetuating this self-referencing

01:04:24.640 --> 01:04:25.680
loop

01:04:25.680 --> 01:04:28.640
that for me is becoming incredibly

01:04:28.640 --> 01:04:30.640
tedious

01:04:30.640 --> 01:04:33.440
and limiting and it

01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:35.680
most of the time it appears invisible as

01:04:35.680 --> 01:04:36.880
if by

01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:39.039
as if we're going to get somewhere

01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:41.359
but actually the loops are just feel to

01:04:41.359 --> 01:04:42.880
me like they're getting tighter and

01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:44.480
tighter

01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:45.920
yeah and the whole

01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.400
if you think about if i was talking to

01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:51.200
someone the other day and she teaches at

01:04:51.200 --> 01:04:54.480
the new parsons new school and she has a

01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:57.200
friend who a black young black mailman

01:04:57.200 --> 01:04:58.799
who teaches

01:04:58.799 --> 01:05:00.720
theater or performance or dance or

01:05:00.720 --> 01:05:02.400
something like that

01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:04.559
and he had his new students

01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:06.839
and

01:05:06.839 --> 01:05:08.559
um

01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:10.559
i'm not sure how

01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:13.280
what the context was but he you know is

01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:15.599
a multi-racial diverse group of of

01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:18.079
people he's a black man young black man

01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:20.400
and he and he had them watch the movie

01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:23.200
roots

01:05:23.200 --> 01:05:24.720
and

01:05:24.720 --> 01:05:27.440
ja and black people in his

01:05:27.440 --> 01:05:29.119
class

01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:32.160
complained that he forced them to

01:05:32.160 --> 01:05:34.799
process their personal experience in

01:05:34.799 --> 01:05:36.799
front of people who could not share that

01:05:36.799 --> 01:05:39.200
reality and they got them fired

01:05:39.200 --> 01:05:41.920
that that was traumatizing

01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:44.400
so this is this is

01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:46.559
bigger than just the little internal

01:05:46.559 --> 01:05:50.240
processing that we have like it's really

01:05:50.240 --> 01:05:52.799
it's really virulent

01:05:52.799 --> 01:05:53.920
um

01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:54.960
and

01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:58.720
it's and it's and yeah it's a

01:05:58.720 --> 01:06:02.640
reduction it's a disservice to what the

01:06:02.640 --> 01:06:05.039
child has come through and done in the

01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:07.920
intelligences and the way the scientist

01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:09.760
of the child works and

01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:12.640
that you adapted and adapted these tools

01:06:12.640 --> 01:06:13.520
and

01:06:13.520 --> 01:06:18.400
yeah and and you've become unique and

01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:23.039
and a little odd but there's this

01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:24.880
but the society is holding up an

01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:28.799
idealized self as the mirror and nobody

01:06:28.799 --> 01:06:30.839
nobody

01:06:30.839 --> 01:06:32.720
qualifies

01:06:32.720 --> 01:06:34.400
look at jordan peterson like he's a

01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:36.160
freaking wreck

01:06:36.160 --> 01:06:38.319
right that's okay like

01:06:38.319 --> 01:06:39.119
like

01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:41.119
and then we get we'll be like appalled

01:06:41.119 --> 01:06:43.359
when we find these gurus are actually

01:06:43.359 --> 01:06:45.359
like wrecks right

01:06:45.359 --> 01:06:47.839
um but we shouldn't call them rex you

01:06:47.839 --> 01:06:49.200
know i mean

01:06:49.200 --> 01:06:50.880
they so

01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:51.680
yeah

01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:53.200
i know what you mean i actually have

01:06:53.200 --> 01:06:56.000
come to really love jordan peterson tell

01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:57.520
me another thing

01:06:57.520 --> 01:07:00.480
read graber's dawn of humanity you'll

01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:02.319
never want to be an indigenous person

01:07:02.319 --> 01:07:05.520
again those people were crazy

01:07:05.520 --> 01:07:06.480
like

01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:08.319
i mean he just tells it like it is like

01:07:08.319 --> 01:07:10.799
they weren't perfect they weren't you

01:07:10.799 --> 01:07:12.319
know rousseau's

01:07:12.319 --> 01:07:14.640
uh they experimented with a bunch of

01:07:14.640 --> 01:07:16.160
things and

01:07:16.160 --> 01:07:17.359
you know

01:07:17.359 --> 01:07:18.319
they

01:07:18.319 --> 01:07:19.760
they

01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:22.400
were monsters just like we are

01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:24.480
and and

01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:26.799
talk about getting clock

01:07:26.799 --> 01:07:29.839
so uh idealizing something

01:07:29.839 --> 01:07:33.280
yeah i just i just i can feel this

01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:37.119
um shift that you're you're offering

01:07:37.119 --> 01:07:39.039
and if we go back to the engine

01:07:39.039 --> 01:07:42.160
indigeneity work we did it i can feel

01:07:42.160 --> 01:07:45.920
it's almost like the the sense of being

01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:47.680
which i very much connect with the

01:07:47.680 --> 01:07:49.039
mountain

01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:51.760
the sense of being you know

01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:54.000
uh is getting

01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:57.680
much more alive and all the like i'm

01:07:57.680 --> 01:08:00.960
very touched with peter's exploration of

01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:02.880
the stories that make him think he needs

01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:03.839
to be

01:08:03.839 --> 01:08:06.000
someone else yeah you know

01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:08.559
and and that question like would i

01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:11.520
actually trade my life

01:08:11.520 --> 01:08:13.359
is so powerful

01:08:13.359 --> 01:08:15.119
to really

01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:18.080
wrestle with that question in a real way

01:08:18.080 --> 01:08:20.400
so thank you for that

01:08:20.400 --> 01:08:22.640
yeah we didn't do indigeneity like that

01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:24.560
we were very clear we weren't going to

01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:28.159
try to be some idealized

01:08:28.159 --> 01:08:30.880
indigenous yeah anyways for me it was an

01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:33.199
eye-opener like

01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:34.799
you know i could tell part of me really

01:08:34.799 --> 01:08:36.960
wanted to find a beautiful

01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:39.120
that the beautiful

01:08:39.120 --> 01:08:43.040
society in the past that we lost

01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:47.040
he didn't deliver

01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:50.799
sharon uh you had a question for your

01:08:50.799 --> 01:08:53.839
hand raised

01:08:55.359 --> 01:08:57.679
yeah um

01:08:57.679 --> 01:09:00.239
you were talking about uh sorry i

01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:02.719
captured that question and uh where did

01:09:02.719 --> 01:09:04.400
i capture it

01:09:04.400 --> 01:09:07.040
um you were talking about therapeutic

01:09:07.040 --> 01:09:08.480
interventions and

01:09:08.480 --> 01:09:11.679
psychotechnology being more um

01:09:11.679 --> 01:09:14.159
allocentric versus egocentric i think

01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:16.560
was when you

01:09:16.560 --> 01:09:19.520
called against that um but it struck me

01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:22.239
that learning and education as well

01:09:22.239 --> 01:09:25.359
wants to be in that i guess learning is

01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:27.279
you know education is one of the psycho

01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:30.400
technologies so um

01:09:30.400 --> 01:09:31.920
uh and and then just what you were

01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:34.480
saying a minute ago about

01:09:34.480 --> 01:09:36.560
the story with the the black man and

01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:39.520
he's maybe trying to move people into an

01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:41.120
embodied or

01:09:41.120 --> 01:09:44.960
experiential way of understanding things

01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:46.319
and

01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:48.159
with all of the protections that are

01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:49.759
built around

01:09:49.759 --> 01:09:52.319
you know anything that even smells of

01:09:52.319 --> 01:09:54.800
discomfort nowadays it's it almost feels

01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:56.880
like it's getting increasingly difficult

01:09:56.880 --> 01:09:59.040
to have an allocentric

01:09:59.040 --> 01:10:01.120
experience in any realm you know i'm

01:10:01.120 --> 01:10:02.480
thinking about

01:10:02.480 --> 01:10:03.520
you know

01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:05.840
kids not being able to walk themselves

01:10:05.840 --> 01:10:07.840
to school because somebody's going to

01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:09.679
call child protective services because

01:10:09.679 --> 01:10:11.920
they got on a bus when they're 12

01:10:11.920 --> 01:10:14.719
instead of 16 or something you know like

01:10:14.719 --> 01:10:17.520
it's getting more and more difficult to

01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:22.080
have an actual allocentric experience

01:10:22.080 --> 01:10:24.159
because we're so

01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:26.960
afraid of

01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:29.040
trauma pain accident

01:10:29.040 --> 01:10:30.800
so

01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:33.280
so these things have an amplifier right

01:10:33.280 --> 01:10:35.440
so the more trauma

01:10:35.440 --> 01:10:38.239
story the parent has the you know

01:10:38.239 --> 01:10:39.840
um

01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:41.840
and of course you know i'm reading this

01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:43.920
book raising parents and it's a lot of

01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:45.760
clinical studies and of course the

01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:48.239
material conditions of a lot of people

01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:50.320
are real you know their

01:10:50.320 --> 01:10:52.239
their neighborhoods are very dangerous

01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:54.480
they don't have good food their parents

01:10:54.480 --> 01:10:56.880
are violent i mean there's all kinds of

01:10:56.880 --> 01:10:58.800
stuff

01:10:58.800 --> 01:10:59.920
but

01:10:59.920 --> 01:11:01.760
there's also

01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:04.560
you know in in

01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:06.640
there's a real question about whether

01:11:06.640 --> 01:11:07.679
we're

01:11:07.679 --> 01:11:10.320
given that these conditions do exist

01:11:10.320 --> 01:11:12.880
whether we're less capable

01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:15.440
of surviving them and being resilient

01:11:15.440 --> 01:11:17.520
through them than we were in the past

01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:19.760
whether the question is whether the

01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:23.040
methodology is iatrogenic at this point

01:11:23.040 --> 01:11:24.480
yeah like the focus is on the

01:11:24.480 --> 01:11:26.159
post-traumatic stress not on the post

01:11:26.159 --> 01:11:29.040
traumatic growth the focus is on the

01:11:29.040 --> 01:11:30.000
you know

01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:31.840
not the capacity that you build by

01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:33.600
moving through discomfort but the fact

01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:36.000
that there's discomfort at all you know

01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:39.199
exactly so of course we're not nuancing

01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:42.080
we're making quite categorical uh things

01:11:42.080 --> 01:11:44.000
out of the model to get kind of there

01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:47.840
but um all these questions are are

01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:49.920
um you know we should we should think

01:11:49.920 --> 01:11:53.040
about them um

01:11:53.040 --> 01:11:54.400
i know it's clear

01:11:54.400 --> 01:11:55.360
to me

01:11:55.360 --> 01:11:57.520
this is not about that but the basic

01:11:57.520 --> 01:12:00.800
biological physiological medical system

01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:04.080
is really profoundly confused

01:12:04.080 --> 01:12:05.120
um

01:12:05.120 --> 01:12:09.760
so it's not it's not then i think

01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:11.679
a big

01:12:11.679 --> 01:12:14.800
you know a big step leap to think that

01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:15.840
the

01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:17.920
psychology commit

01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:20.000
industry is also profoundly confused

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:21.280
there's also

01:12:21.280 --> 01:12:22.960
many good

01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:25.280
resources that are out there also but

01:12:25.280 --> 01:12:30.000
just the industry itself you know um

01:12:31.280 --> 01:12:32.640
yeah so

01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:36.320
uh i know we're almost the time but

01:12:36.320 --> 01:12:39.199
do you see any path through this in

01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:41.760
terms of

01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:44.640
re-engaging

01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:46.640
our willingness to be with the

01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:50.239
discomfort or

01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:52.239
you know in order to be

01:12:52.239 --> 01:12:55.520
more alive or more more embodied or i

01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:56.719
mean is that what this project's all

01:12:56.719 --> 01:12:58.400
about basically for you it's just trying

01:12:58.400 --> 01:13:01.440
to thread that needle somehow

01:13:01.440 --> 01:13:04.880
let's see more uh value in people who

01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:07.120
like with sisters peter who who are

01:13:07.120 --> 01:13:09.199
intuiting these steps and then there's

01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:11.600
an affirmation process yes it makes

01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:13.679
sense there are some

01:13:13.679 --> 01:13:16.400
relationships to this that you that will

01:13:16.400 --> 01:13:18.159
help you make sense you don't have to go

01:13:18.159 --> 01:13:20.640
looking forever you're you know this

01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:22.080
kind of thing

01:13:22.080 --> 01:13:24.000
um

01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:26.159
i'm supposed to be writing a book on a

01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:28.080
philosophy of transformational education

01:13:28.080 --> 01:13:29.760
that talks about how do we teach to the

01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:31.679
core self

01:13:31.679 --> 01:13:35.040
it gets really complex when you're

01:13:35.040 --> 01:13:37.440
working with that kind of approach you

01:13:37.440 --> 01:13:39.600
know justification academic

01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:41.520
justification

01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:43.440
um

01:13:43.440 --> 01:13:45.040
ultimately

01:13:45.040 --> 01:13:47.280
the system

01:13:47.280 --> 01:13:50.719
uh if it's so inconsistent

01:13:50.719 --> 01:13:52.360
extern ultimately it's

01:13:52.360 --> 01:13:54.320
self-exterminating just like you see in

01:13:54.320 --> 01:13:57.120
david grabert books why these

01:13:57.120 --> 01:14:01.840
systems once they've exhausted all their

01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:06.080
their relationships they move they they

01:14:06.080 --> 01:14:08.080
disappeared from the archaeological

01:14:08.080 --> 01:14:10.719
record and then pieces of them show up

01:14:10.719 --> 01:14:14.400
as new experiments in civilization

01:14:14.400 --> 01:14:17.120
and so ultimately that that will happen

01:14:17.120 --> 01:14:19.920
by itself

01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:21.600
um

01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:22.719
but

01:14:22.719 --> 01:14:27.120
uh any chance of you know

01:14:27.360 --> 01:14:31.360
liberating some individuals or or just

01:14:31.360 --> 01:14:32.880
tweaking

01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:35.120
tweaking some of these technologies that

01:14:35.120 --> 01:14:36.880
people are already doing

01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:39.120
and um

01:14:39.120 --> 01:14:41.199
like shayla said you know i really watch

01:14:41.199 --> 01:14:43.120
the eyes now it's i don't have to get

01:14:43.120 --> 01:14:45.440
into so much complexity

01:14:45.440 --> 01:14:46.320
um

01:14:46.320 --> 01:14:48.320
yeah this is this is interesting

01:14:48.320 --> 01:14:52.239
territory i'm very very very nervous

01:14:52.239 --> 01:14:54.320
if there's one practical application is

01:14:54.320 --> 01:14:56.560
that we're about to

01:14:56.560 --> 01:14:59.360
roll out mindfulness training in schools

01:14:59.360 --> 01:15:02.400
which is a very high power asymmetry

01:15:02.400 --> 01:15:04.560
and many mindfulness trainers make you

01:15:04.560 --> 01:15:06.640
go in to that place where you feel

01:15:06.640 --> 01:15:08.400
ashamed

01:15:08.400 --> 01:15:12.560
this is to me highly problematic

01:15:13.920 --> 01:15:14.800
because they don't know what they're

01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:16.400
doing and

01:15:16.400 --> 01:15:18.560
you know we teach our children like why

01:15:18.560 --> 01:15:21.280
did you do that in that in place is this

01:15:21.280 --> 01:15:22.880
place where there's supposedly a little

01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:25.440
good boy and a bad boy

01:15:25.440 --> 01:15:28.640
this is a just a construct that's

01:15:28.640 --> 01:15:31.360
rayified by the way we

01:15:31.360 --> 01:15:34.320
we do that so you may or may not heard

01:15:34.320 --> 01:15:36.480
me say so what could a parent do well

01:15:36.480 --> 01:15:38.080
when the kid's going like this and

01:15:38.080 --> 01:15:40.719
breaks a vase you don't say why did you

01:15:40.719 --> 01:15:42.320
do that

01:15:42.320 --> 01:15:43.440
you know we all know what this looks

01:15:43.440 --> 01:15:45.280
like and the kid's like this

01:15:45.280 --> 01:15:47.040
he knows there's some

01:15:47.040 --> 01:15:49.120
supposed to be an answer but when you

01:15:49.120 --> 01:15:51.440
first ask them there's nothing you're

01:15:51.440 --> 01:15:53.040
pointing there's nothing

01:15:53.040 --> 01:15:55.120
it doesn't make any sense right pretty

01:15:55.120 --> 01:15:57.120
soon he learns oh there's like there's

01:15:57.120 --> 01:15:58.640
something in there

01:15:58.640 --> 01:16:02.239
there's you know he figures out what

01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:03.840
meaning you're trying to make but what

01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:06.320
if instead you go and say oh what

01:16:06.320 --> 01:16:07.760
happened

01:16:07.760 --> 01:16:10.159
you see how allocentric that is

01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:11.840
okay

01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:14.480
oh what happened oh

01:16:14.480 --> 01:16:17.280
i really liked that so you give a little

01:16:17.280 --> 01:16:19.440
sat you know you want to put some

01:16:19.440 --> 01:16:22.400
but it's not like

01:16:24.080 --> 01:16:25.520
same with working with horses when you

01:16:25.520 --> 01:16:26.960
first start working with orthos you

01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:29.040
think why doesn't he not like me why is

01:16:29.040 --> 01:16:30.800
he after me he says he's going to hurt

01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:33.280
me then pretty soon you realize

01:16:33.280 --> 01:16:35.760
they're just bodies in space

01:16:35.760 --> 01:16:38.080
like in the whole intuitive sense when

01:16:38.080 --> 01:16:40.480
you liberate your psyche becomes very

01:16:40.480 --> 01:16:41.440
intuitive because it's not

01:16:41.440 --> 01:16:44.440
self-referential

01:16:44.719 --> 01:16:46.080
so it's like

01:16:46.080 --> 01:16:48.320
um so these are some of the

01:16:48.320 --> 01:16:51.120
possibilities in this work and

01:16:51.120 --> 01:16:52.400
um

01:16:52.400 --> 01:16:53.600
yeah

01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:54.480
um

01:16:54.480 --> 01:16:57.840
i don't know did i answer your question

01:16:57.840 --> 01:16:59.280
yeah i i

01:16:59.280 --> 01:17:01.280
don't know that it was a question

01:17:01.280 --> 01:17:03.920
it was i don't know yes

01:17:03.920 --> 01:17:06.400
but it's very complex

01:17:06.400 --> 01:17:08.960
yes you're not going to go into an

01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:11.840
overburdened over emotional

01:17:11.840 --> 01:17:13.760
family where the parents don't have

01:17:13.760 --> 01:17:16.480
enough time and that they're covered

01:17:16.480 --> 01:17:19.679
hysterical in their jobs and and train

01:17:19.679 --> 01:17:21.600
them to be allocentric because they

01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:23.280
don't even have any bandwidth to pay

01:17:23.280 --> 01:17:25.520
attention to it there's no bandwidth

01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:28.080
there there's nothing in many cases

01:17:28.080 --> 01:17:30.560
there's nothing to work with and i know

01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:32.000
a lot of single parents who are

01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:34.239
relatively well off they have no they

01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:36.560
even they have no bandwidth

01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:37.520
and

01:17:37.520 --> 01:17:39.360
um i had these friends come over the

01:17:39.360 --> 01:17:42.239
other day and and this one guy was

01:17:42.239 --> 01:17:44.000
in the paddock with eiger and he's

01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:46.080
laying on the ground and rolling with

01:17:46.080 --> 01:17:47.040
them

01:17:47.040 --> 01:17:49.760
and i'm like most parents don't know how

01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:52.000
to use their bodies to play with their

01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:53.360
children like

01:17:53.360 --> 01:17:55.840
they not even having the bandwidth maybe

01:17:55.840 --> 01:17:57.760
you have the bandwidth but all i'm going

01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:00.880
to do is spend my time scrolling like

01:18:00.880 --> 01:18:03.520
the implications are not very

01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:06.000
hopeful

01:18:06.400 --> 01:18:07.760
unfortunately

01:18:07.760 --> 01:18:10.000
yeah

01:18:10.400 --> 01:18:13.199
most people don't you know that they

01:18:13.199 --> 01:18:15.199
won't put their bodies on the floor and

01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:16.960
roll with their babies

01:18:16.960 --> 01:18:19.840
they just literally

01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:22.640
that's outside of their

01:18:22.640 --> 01:18:25.640
freedom

01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:30.480
um do you have time for one more

01:18:30.480 --> 01:18:32.800
question

01:18:33.120 --> 01:18:37.120
debbie downer just call me debbie downer

01:18:37.120 --> 01:18:39.040
vic you had a

01:18:39.040 --> 01:18:40.800
question do you want to

01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:44.080
read it or do you want me to read it

01:18:49.920 --> 01:18:52.320
uh okay i'll read it i have to take my

01:18:52.320 --> 01:18:56.239
uh i take it out of my pocket but yeah

01:18:56.320 --> 01:18:57.360
i uh

01:18:57.360 --> 01:18:59.600
i appreciated the uh i don't know what i

01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:01.440
was calling that

01:19:01.440 --> 01:19:02.560
that

01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:05.520
conjoined triangle you know model

01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:08.320
it's bringing together you know the

01:19:08.320 --> 01:19:10.800
energetic the subtle

01:19:10.800 --> 01:19:12.080
active

01:19:12.080 --> 01:19:13.280
and

01:19:13.280 --> 01:19:16.640
the distinction between effective and

01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:17.840
cognitive

01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:20.400
and like

01:19:20.400 --> 01:19:22.719
that kind of a model of like what's it

01:19:22.719 --> 01:19:24.880
resonates like i i i

01:19:24.880 --> 01:19:26.159
i see that in

01:19:26.159 --> 01:19:27.840
in me in the way that i work

01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:28.640
and

01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:30.400
it uh

01:19:30.400 --> 01:19:33.920
it may be curious just whether you

01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:37.520
feel like this model of the self like

01:19:37.520 --> 01:19:40.960
points to practices that we can kind of

01:19:40.960 --> 01:19:43.360
use more intentionally to

01:19:43.360 --> 01:19:44.640
uh

01:19:44.640 --> 01:19:47.199
um hey i think that there's a lot of a

01:19:47.199 --> 01:19:49.520
lot of benefit to moving along that uh

01:19:49.520 --> 01:19:51.520
that uh that that

01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:52.960
that axis of

01:19:52.960 --> 01:19:54.640
you know mind me

01:19:54.640 --> 01:19:57.040
uh up there as it uh

01:19:57.040 --> 01:20:00.159
it seems to correlate with with broader

01:20:00.159 --> 01:20:02.480
um ranges of responsibility and i think

01:20:02.480 --> 01:20:04.560
in the world we we need to be more

01:20:04.560 --> 01:20:06.639
responsible people so i'm going to be

01:20:06.639 --> 01:20:07.920
curious as to whether that model

01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:10.480
connected to some kind of processes to

01:20:10.480 --> 01:20:14.960
help uh develop along that access

01:20:16.480 --> 01:20:19.199
something like that thank you

01:20:19.199 --> 01:20:22.639
yeah so one really powerful

01:20:22.639 --> 01:20:23.520
choice

01:20:23.520 --> 01:20:25.600
set of choices we can make that this

01:20:25.600 --> 01:20:28.080
model points to

01:20:28.080 --> 01:20:29.280
is

01:20:29.280 --> 01:20:31.679
um

01:20:31.760 --> 01:20:34.560
drop what it means and drop the

01:20:34.560 --> 01:20:36.239
complexity of it

01:20:36.239 --> 01:20:37.840
think of something

01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:39.040
that

01:20:39.040 --> 01:20:41.760
needs service in the world and do it

01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:42.800
physically

01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:44.480
like

01:20:44.480 --> 01:20:47.920
go work at a you know food bank one day

01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:50.719
a week do something physical with your

01:20:50.719 --> 01:20:51.760
body

01:20:51.760 --> 01:20:54.400
that's just something you can be proud

01:20:54.400 --> 01:20:56.000
of

01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:57.840
it has no meaning and you're gonna save

01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:00.639
the world by working one day a week now

01:21:00.639 --> 01:21:03.280
it doesn't it's not intellectual

01:21:03.280 --> 01:21:05.760
and that really these things are really

01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:08.800
the path forward

01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:10.320
um and

01:21:10.320 --> 01:21:11.679
resist

01:21:11.679 --> 01:21:13.440
meaning making about you know you'll

01:21:13.440 --> 01:21:15.600
feel it like why are people poor the

01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:18.480
freaking gun no resist all that and just

01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:19.840
continue

01:21:19.840 --> 01:21:23.440
to put stuff on the plate

01:21:27.520 --> 01:21:30.480
i love it thank you

01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:33.679
yeah it's always when benito's dogs are

01:21:33.679 --> 01:21:36.639
barking uh intuitively no it's time and

01:21:36.639 --> 01:21:38.639
uh yeah that reminds me of uh stefan

01:21:38.639 --> 01:21:40.639
jenkinson's handmade life when he was at

01:21:40.639 --> 01:21:42.719
the store he was talking about that

01:21:42.719 --> 01:21:43.600
um

01:21:43.600 --> 01:21:46.560
so any uh parting words uh benita on

01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:48.480
your end before we officially close out

01:21:48.480 --> 01:21:50.719
today

01:21:51.280 --> 01:21:53.679
no i think you know the group is very

01:21:53.679 --> 01:21:56.000
sophisticated because it's a big there's

01:21:56.000 --> 01:21:58.080
a lot that we talked about like you said

01:21:58.080 --> 01:22:00.239
there's a lot of implications that go

01:22:00.239 --> 01:22:03.440
into cultural in archaeological history

01:22:03.440 --> 01:22:04.400
and

01:22:04.400 --> 01:22:08.000
um but i think it shows that the model

01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:10.600
resonates with a lot of maybe more

01:22:10.600 --> 01:22:12.639
sophisticated treatments in many

01:22:12.639 --> 01:22:14.480
different disciplines

01:22:14.480 --> 01:22:15.600
um

01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:18.000
so yeah it was nice to see those

01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:19.199
questions

01:22:19.199 --> 01:22:23.400
draw on some of that sophistication

01:22:24.880 --> 01:22:26.000
um

01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:27.760
so

01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:29.920
yes uh so thank you on behalf of uh

01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:31.679
pop-up school and everyone still for

01:22:31.679 --> 01:22:33.360
coming today and for this three-part

01:22:33.360 --> 01:22:36.000
series who knows we might have uh more

01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.360
uh if there's more demand for it um

01:22:39.360 --> 01:22:42.960
and always a lot of gratitude and love

01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:45.760
to the one and only benito roy

01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:47.120
and

01:22:47.120 --> 01:22:48.639
yeah that we have an event coming up

01:22:48.639 --> 01:22:50.639
which actually victor who just spoke

01:22:50.639 --> 01:22:53.280
introduced me to uh clinton callahan uh

01:22:53.280 --> 01:22:54.960
escaping the eight prisons the path for

01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:56.560
transformational adventure and talks

01:22:56.560 --> 01:22:58.080
about some of the kind of

01:22:58.080 --> 01:22:59.440
contours of the generalized other and

01:22:59.440 --> 01:23:01.440
the scripts we need to escape so

01:23:01.440 --> 01:23:02.880
that should be fun you can check that

01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:03.600
out

01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:06.080
and uh ken wilbur's coming this friday

01:23:06.080 --> 01:23:08.000
now uh benita will be asking him a

01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:08.960
question

01:23:08.960 --> 01:23:11.679
as well zack stein uh gail brad book

01:23:11.679 --> 01:23:13.120
from extinction rebellion might might

01:23:13.120 --> 01:23:15.360
come as well as a few others so that

01:23:15.360 --> 01:23:17.600
should be fun and that's a patreon event

01:23:17.600 --> 01:23:18.639
um

01:23:18.639 --> 01:23:21.280
so that being said uh more events at the

01:23:21.280 --> 01:23:24.000
store sca and everyone thank you so much

01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:28.040
for coming to the store today