# Memory 2023 cohorts transcripts

## Cohort 1

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foreign

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today we start our next round

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in the next module

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of the 2023 course series

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um so let's just

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um take a little bit step back and and

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go back to the framing the initial

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framing

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um so this is a series with co-creating

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a new theory of the body

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which

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um

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describes experience in a way that it

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puts the Mind back into the body and the

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body back into nature

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so one of the things that this requires

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is

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um foreign

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taking our phenomenological experience

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our actual lived experience

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and putting words to that

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and also incorporating that to be

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consistent with science

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and so one of the things that I'm just

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there's a lot of people coming in so I'm

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kind of going slow with this

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introduction so one of the things that

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is

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what you'll notice is that

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different people I took for example Andy

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Clark's book I'm working with they'll

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they'll reference the same science

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they'll reference a lot of the same

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experience but they're coming from a

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different frame

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um so

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um we're trying to describe this uh

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that's consistent with the science but

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we're threading it through this project

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of putting the Mind back into the body

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and the body back into the nature and

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I'll just give you

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um two two examples

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um you know we call it mindfulness why

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don't we call it body fullness and so

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the whole reframing of this is a

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practice of body fullness starts kind of

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where you want to end up

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um there's this guy River Kenna that

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I've recently connected with he does he

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he's uh

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a meditator and a seeker and he has a

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substack our uh um

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sub staff newsletter and and he has a

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very very

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um cool critique of exactly this that

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that when he started doing mindfulness

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training

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he felt like all the injunctions kept

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kept him in his mind so

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so we're trying to do a little reframe

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like that here also with these these

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theories so we take a different

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narrative kind of frame and we try to

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thread together the evidence and the

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experiential in a way that's consistent

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with this narrative frame okay so it's

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the same with the after Socrates and

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before Socrates

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um thing

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um we can reference the same works but

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what I include in my interpretation and

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the way I have a narrative Arc is a

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completely different story than what

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John is doing

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um and so this is kind of

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um how this stuff works when you're

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doing what John would call synaptic

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Integrations

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um okay

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so that's what we're doing and today

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we're talking about memory

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we're going to

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um do this module a little different

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than the first two what we're going to

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do is I'm going to give you an exercise

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which would be it's like a meditation

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Army so it's a vipassana exercise to

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notice what's happening when I give you

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an instruction to remember something

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okay

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so I'm going to give you an instruction

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to remember something and then you're

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going to notice how that memory arises

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or assembles or how how where does it

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come from okay and so we need to be in a

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kind of meditated state where we're

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going to be quite passive and we want to

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notice

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what is happening in my experience such

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that

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this memory is arising okay does that

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make sense so the only reason I'm going

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slow is because

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this requires us to start by not being

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very conceptual about it and I know that

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the the the course content is quite

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conceptual okay

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so what do I want you to notice

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one of the things that I would I want

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you to do is to be careful with your

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posture and if you if you've done the

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four postures and you take and you know

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keep your eyes open and stare at the

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wall

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the process of the memory coming up will

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come slower

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if you go in and look to answer the

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question then it'll come so fast you

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won't see how the memory assembles

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itself

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so

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um so you could just go like this you

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have the question and then you try to

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let the memory assemble itself

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um rather than trying to think about the

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answer because if you think about the

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answer you'll trigger the sequence the

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memory

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you'll trigger the memory sequence and

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it'll happen so fast

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that you won't notice anything okay now

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I'm going to ask different types of

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questions and some questions will be too

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fast for some people and some questions

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this very same question will be slow for

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people because there's different modes

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of our experience so the first question

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it comes really fast don't think you

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were did anything wrong because I'm

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going to give you another question

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subsequently and that one might be

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slower for you okay some questions some

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of these instructions work really well

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for some people some don't work very

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well for other people at all

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there's also a range of how people

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experience memory there are some people

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have a Fantasia which means they don't

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get a lot of imagery it's very they have

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to recollect things in a very mental way

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that's okay you just want to report your

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your experience okay so there's no right

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or wrong way it's it's a it's a body

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meditative or vipassana type uh

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experience okay

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does everybody understand that so far

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okay

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um now what are you looking for you're

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not you're letting the body

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serve up the memory

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but you're looking for for example what

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is the first point

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of attack

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what is it first attached to okay

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so sometimes you'll notice that before

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an image comes up you get the feeling

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of something like whenever I think of

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some of the great dogs I have had when I

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say oh Georgia Brown

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I entered what it felt like to be with

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her and then I start to see what she

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looked like

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so for some what triggers the memory is

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so what is the tag

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it's kind of like you know when you when

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you tag and hyperlink something what is

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the tag

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is it a feeling tag is it an image

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is it a story like sometimes in order

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for you to recollect a memory you have

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to start telling your story well then I

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was in first grade and then I was inside

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you'll see the story has to come up to

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get you to the place where you can

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remember okay that's a different type of

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memory

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right

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so uh

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um if I asked myself who was my teacher

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in the fourth grade I first I find I

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don't remember at all there's no feeling

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I I can't find anything I feel so I have

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to say well in the third grade it was

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Mrs riccio

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she was my I have to start like

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populating it with calendar dates and

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stories to try to work my way into the

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answer now for some people

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[Music]

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if you asked me who was my English

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teacher in the eighth grade I had this

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feel I have no idea what his name is but

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I have a very strong feeling because I

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had a crush on him and he had this white

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convertible Beetle Volkswagen Beetle

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I don't remember what he looks like I

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kind of I can kind of put a but I know

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it's not real

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right and so the feeling comes up first

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and then an image that it's attached to

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the event

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the the beetle is very very clearly and

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I can see it where it's parked okay so

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these things do you see what I'm talking

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about memory like these things get

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assembled if you read the course content

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that's what I mean by assemble they get

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assembled by feelings or sometimes they

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have to be actually constructed by

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orienting yourself in a story

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sometimes they seem to come all at once

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this this is we're going to try to slow

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that down

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um

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um okay and then the last thing we're

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going to notice which is very easy hold

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on one second

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so if you get that the first couple of

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times that's the most important uh yeah

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I think it might be hard for for Phoebe

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uh we'll try to figure out one

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um

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uh for some this is this is just the way

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it is for some people we'll try though

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um so so uh

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the other thing that we're going to

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notice which I can we can just notice at

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the get-go is that

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the memory has got to serve the present

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instruction right like when I just

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thought of my eighth grade teacher it

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was because I thought of this question

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about my third grade teacher and then

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all these things are coming up in the

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present because of the injunction for me

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to come up with I examples right so

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um so when I ask you to do this you will

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notice that until there's a present

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injunction you're probably not

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remembering or you know going around

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trying to remember what I'm asking gonna

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ask you to remember

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and so if this is more sophisticated

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don't try this the first time we know

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this is true but the next time or just

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as I'm leading into the question if you

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could notice

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what

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what that relationship is to the the

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present injunction to serve up the past

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memory and how how it relates to uh yeah

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how it how it chooses what's relevant

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and it and what's not relevant it

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chooses this is weird language so does

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everybody understand that that's the

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kinds of things we can look for when you

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go on your breakout group you can talk

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about anything to get started like you

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can even just say what your memory was

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because you're confused this is not easy

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work okay this is not easy work

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especially the first time then you get

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the hang of it you know some of you some

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of you if you have a really fast memory

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then

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um you know what's nice about this is

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you could see how weird other people's

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minds are like

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but they can't they don't know where to

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go to access memories and stuff like

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that okay so that's that's that's the uh

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that's what we're going to do so we're

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going to do about between a five to ten

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minute

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um

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um guided memory meditation and then

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I'll put you into a 20 minute breakout

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group

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okay

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all right

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so I want you to put yourself

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in the kitchen of the house you grew up

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in

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you may have gone then growing up in

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many different houses but the one that's

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most Salient for you

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and I want you to look at the kitchen

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sink look toward the kitchen sink

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foreign

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what's around the kitchen sink

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or what is the kitchen sink

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located in the kitchen just just look

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around

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and you notice that the idea is to do

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this instruction and try to figure out

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what's going on

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now I want you to walk into your own

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room

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or go into your own room

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foreign

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I want you to either open a closet

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or a drawer

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and remember what's there

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all right

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okay we're gonna go and break out groups

00:17:12.600 --> 00:17:14.760
but you might want to start by spending

00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:16.400
another five minutes

00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.260
resetting and doing this exercise again

00:17:19.260 --> 00:17:23.400
or you might talk go back talk

00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:25.919
go back so don't

00:17:25.919 --> 00:17:26.579
um

00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:29.820
if if you want if it's timely to do the

00:17:29.820 --> 00:17:32.100
exercise again as you talk then go back

00:17:32.100 --> 00:17:34.679
into the exercise go back into a part of

00:17:34.679 --> 00:17:35.820
the exercise

00:17:35.820 --> 00:17:38.640
to to get the right word to the right to

00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.919
be able to share that

00:17:40.919 --> 00:17:43.640
does that make sense

00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:45.900
okay

00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:48.000
um so again we're going to go out for 20

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.640
minutes we will come back to this build

00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.520
on this little scenario so

00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:56.360
uh

00:18:14.280 --> 00:18:17.000
okay

00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:46.020
foreign

00:18:47.419 --> 00:18:50.900
how do we do

00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:09.600
let's start with this question were you

00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:12.000
surprised like you probably haven't

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.880
meditated on trying to remember

00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:16.679
before

00:19:16.679 --> 00:19:17.280
um

00:19:17.280 --> 00:19:20.400
and was it was it

00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.559
different than you expected you could

00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.360
start with there it just or you could

00:19:24.360 --> 00:19:27.980
talk about the experience

00:19:32.100 --> 00:19:35.039
um oh yeah good we were together so you

00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.500
go ahead because it's related to what I

00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:40.679
was saying I'm sure Marie

00:19:40.679 --> 00:19:42.539
okay

00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:45.900
um yeah I I guess there was an element

00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:48.480
of surprise in it

00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.780
um just how literally the memories were

00:19:51.780 --> 00:19:54.660
a process of assemblage

00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:56.160
so

00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.880
um for instance in the kitchen

00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:02.760
that I I selected from my childhood

00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:04.980
because there were many so I was able to

00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:09.179
to pick one and and and enter that one

00:20:09.179 --> 00:20:11.760
and the

00:20:11.760 --> 00:20:14.340
um I'll just give one example like when

00:20:14.340 --> 00:20:18.440
you said what is uh surrounding the sink

00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.380
at first it was totally blank and then I

00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:24.059
asked myself the question well what

00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:25.440
would be there

00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.760
and what came up was a almost a perfect

00:20:29.760 --> 00:20:34.520
memory of of the the dishes

00:20:34.520 --> 00:20:38.640
that um were from that era and I could

00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.039
even it was CorningWare and I could even

00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.120
see the little pattern around the edge

00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:47.120
and then

00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:50.460
similarly in the bedroom there were it

00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:52.320
was just I'll give this one other

00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:54.240
example

00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:58.380
um in the bedroom there was I

00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:00.380
I could

00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:03.960
identify a bunk bed and a record player

00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.679
but beyond that there were no details

00:21:07.679 --> 00:21:10.140
um except I asked myself well what would

00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.299
be on what was on the bed I couldn't see

00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:15.419
it what would be on the bed and what has

00:21:15.419 --> 00:21:18.480
become Salient for me is the kind of

00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:20.460
blankets that

00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:24.120
um were common back then acrylic or

00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:27.299
polyester with that satin edging

00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:29.880
and oftentimes the stitching would come

00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:33.179
up and they'd get a little frayed and so

00:21:33.179 --> 00:21:37.140
I started making the bed with these

00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:40.020
these probabilities of what what might

00:21:40.020 --> 00:21:41.100
be there

00:21:41.100 --> 00:21:45.080
and it was it was a bit Wild

00:21:55.919 --> 00:21:58.860
and her what you were saying Marie had

00:21:58.860 --> 00:22:00.320
helped me

00:22:00.320 --> 00:22:05.640
reconfigure what I was seeing uh which

00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.580
wasn't as effective

00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:09.299
um

00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:13.980
but during your talk I reintroduced

00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:15.720
things

00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:17.159
that

00:22:17.159 --> 00:22:19.140
because it's like an exercise and I

00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:21.000
thank you Bonnie for having this be a

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.360
exercise on memory because it is a great

00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:27.000
tool and uh while Marie was talking and

00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:29.580
describing like what she just did I oh

00:22:29.580 --> 00:22:32.880
some things pop into my head and uh in

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.299
in memory and I changed kitchens and I

00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:38.820
saw more things so anyway I just feel

00:22:38.820 --> 00:22:42.000
it's a great opportunity to

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.460
develop different different aspects of

00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:46.820
memory

00:22:46.919 --> 00:22:49.700
thank you

00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:56.820
I'll share I I didn't have a lot of

00:22:56.820 --> 00:22:59.100
memory and I certainly didn't have many

00:22:59.100 --> 00:23:00.960
visual memories

00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:02.280
and

00:23:02.280 --> 00:23:04.860
um the woman Susan standard sorry Sandra

00:23:04.860 --> 00:23:07.440
does uh speak partnering with has tons

00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.480
of had tons of visual memories but I

00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:10.919
remember my sister

00:23:10.919 --> 00:23:13.440
two like she remembered tons of stuff

00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.240
from our childhood and I had no

00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.600
recollection any of it and so part of it

00:23:18.600 --> 00:23:21.539
is that I remembered the feeling and the

00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:25.200
event it was more embodied memory

00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.059
but I didn't have a lot of embodied

00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:29.640
memory so it's made me wonder whether

00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:31.799
why

00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.080
why would the visual have ping ping ping

00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:36.179
one after another to another and why

00:23:36.179 --> 00:23:37.400
would the

00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.200
experiential or episodic because I would

00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:41.100
remember

00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:43.919
something that happened around the sink

00:23:43.919 --> 00:23:46.980
actually I don't remember many things

00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:49.100
um

00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.240
you know is that does that have to do we

00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:52.620
do with

00:23:52.620 --> 00:23:55.640
my own emotional or psychological state

00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.880
that I would was less available

00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.840
see that this

00:24:07.679 --> 00:24:11.100
this girl by any means and uh my sister

00:24:11.100 --> 00:24:12.480
remembers

00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.600
all her teachers and she like she's like

00:24:15.600 --> 00:24:17.580
just go down Main Street I go back to I

00:24:17.580 --> 00:24:18.840
don't know where Maine Main

00:24:18.840 --> 00:24:21.240
Street is I don't remember any of my

00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:23.159
teachers

00:24:23.159 --> 00:24:24.179
um

00:24:24.179 --> 00:24:27.600
um and and there are things about uh

00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:29.520
childhood that I remember down to the

00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:32.460
detail like every single hamster I had

00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:35.120
that my sister doesn't remember

00:24:35.120 --> 00:24:40.380
so so uh yeah this is not I mean it

00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:42.840
could be sometimes the case you know but

00:24:42.840 --> 00:24:46.320
this is not at all uh uh even a

00:24:46.320 --> 00:24:47.640
correlation

00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.080
um and we'll we'll talk about this a

00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:50.700
little later so I just want to make sure

00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:53.460
that you didn't feel that that way

00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:55.200
um

00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.419
um but also

00:24:57.419 --> 00:24:59.419
um

00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:04.200
what you did say is that most of what

00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.000
comes up for you and remember are

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.320
feelings

00:25:07.320 --> 00:25:08.940
what does it feel like to be in the

00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:10.559
kitchen I have no idea what it looked

00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:11.460
like

00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.440
but I know what it felt like to be in

00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.840
that kitchen and I know what it feels

00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:17.940
like you might not in your memory see

00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.220
the image of your sister walk in but it

00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:24.720
felt like my sister walked in so okay so

00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.419
this is the same way some people dream

00:25:27.419 --> 00:25:31.980
it's called affect level dreaming where

00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:34.380
you might say something you report the

00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:35.760
street well I had this really weird

00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:38.279
dream and it was like I was holding a

00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:40.860
baby but then it was kind of like a

00:25:40.860 --> 00:25:43.380
kitten like you didn't have a lot of

00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:45.659
visual imagery but what the dream was

00:25:45.659 --> 00:25:49.080
with was a rhythm a Feeling

00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:54.480
so this is a very uh this is very uh an

00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:57.299
individual way to have what how you're

00:25:57.299 --> 00:25:59.880
processing information so

00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:03.620
um it doesn't mean that

00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:06.539
that you're suppressing details or

00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:09.720
anything like that no not at all well

00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:12.600
I'll just say it was less affecting more

00:26:12.600 --> 00:26:15.000
relational more things that happened

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.580
like a contest who could wash the most

00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:20.039
dishes or or cleaning a part of the

00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:21.539
kitchen that kind of things it was

00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:24.179
activity and relational stuff

00:26:24.179 --> 00:26:25.980
okay yeah

00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:29.100
but not necessarily like yeah

00:26:29.100 --> 00:26:32.039
good who else was in that group Sandra

00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:34.140
and Susan I think right

00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:38.340
uh just me oh okay and what was

00:26:38.340 --> 00:26:40.799
interesting to me was

00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.480
the minute you said you know put

00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:44.340
yourself in a kitchen and I figured out

00:26:44.340 --> 00:26:47.400
which one or one of them became more

00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.020
salient

00:26:49.020 --> 00:26:52.020
there were no people in my you know

00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:55.740
there's no sense of like experience it

00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:58.200
was just okay I know exactly where the

00:26:58.200 --> 00:26:59.880
cabinets are I'm looking around there's

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:02.460
all these doors that the dishwashers

00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.340
behind me I can go in my room I see the

00:27:05.340 --> 00:27:07.140
rug I see the whole thing but there were

00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:09.120
no people

00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:10.200
yeah

00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.460
so it was very architectural

00:27:13.460 --> 00:27:17.120
and very detailed

00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.419
so I'll have my hand up so I'll put it

00:27:24.419 --> 00:27:26.340
down but I also I do want to share that

00:27:26.340 --> 00:27:28.740
in my group what I remembered was I took

00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:31.500
this course in 2000 I won't go into the

00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:33.360
details but they want you to make a list

00:27:33.360 --> 00:27:35.640
of the people that you saw at least once

00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:39.900
every 30 days for each year of your life

00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:42.419
and I thought there is no way

00:27:42.419 --> 00:27:43.740
I'm going to do that and they wanted

00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:45.659
every major event

00:27:45.659 --> 00:27:47.460
and what was coming out of your mouth

00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:49.440
what kind of things that you were saying

00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.299
so I went to my parents house I got my

00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:53.700
old school pictures and I swear to God

00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:56.400
everything came now this was over months

00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.039
but every it all came out all of it this

00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.539
would remind me of that event that would

00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:02.760
remind me another person that I was

00:28:02.760 --> 00:28:05.220
stunned it's all in there every bit of

00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:07.340
it

00:28:12.179 --> 00:28:15.080
I'll share

00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:18.360
so I tried to track like the sequence

00:28:18.360 --> 00:28:20.760
trying to be a good student and I don't

00:28:20.760 --> 00:28:22.679
know where any of it came from

00:28:22.679 --> 00:28:26.039
but it felt a bit like

00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.100
um uh Star Trek the beam me up Scotty

00:28:29.100 --> 00:28:31.559
like I could feel the reassemblage like

00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.539
the pieces sort of just like

00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.580
The Matrix sort of coming back together

00:28:35.580 --> 00:28:42.240
and very visual also but I also um

00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.520
like you Marie though I didn't ask a

00:28:44.520 --> 00:28:46.200
question I could notice where I couldn't

00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.400
see something I would just fill

00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.260
something in just to complete the

00:28:49.260 --> 00:28:50.460
Gestalt

00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:55.440
like like to satisfy the wholeness and

00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.360
um I also when you asked to open the

00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:59.580
closet I mean I could feel with my body

00:28:59.580 --> 00:29:02.760
too I could remember with my with my

00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:04.320
body

00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:07.020
um and a lot of strong feelings very

00:29:07.020 --> 00:29:09.659
strong um

00:29:09.659 --> 00:29:12.960
uh affect I don't know was it affect

00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.539
yeah okay

00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:16.980
yeah it was fun

00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:19.020
but I don't I can't track the sequence

00:29:19.020 --> 00:29:20.940
and I don't

00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:24.120
know where things were originating or

00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:25.559
anything

00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.080
yeah but you felt the assembly process

00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:31.020
so this is good good start yeah

00:29:31.020 --> 00:29:34.039
this is good start

00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:36.860
yeah Marie she then went to narrative

00:29:36.860 --> 00:29:40.440
and then kind of tried to

00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:42.899
put that into her memory and yeah and

00:29:42.899 --> 00:29:44.220
you were going back between different

00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:46.440
things and yeah

00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:48.179
we're going to do different types of

00:29:48.179 --> 00:29:50.220
instructions so

00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:52.520
um yeah

00:29:54.659 --> 00:29:58.200
I was in the same group with Katie

00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.159
and with Holly

00:30:02.100 --> 00:30:03.539
and

00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:06.059
um I had no early memory

00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:09.299
just as a Young Man memory

00:30:09.299 --> 00:30:11.940
so I visited my parents house I didn't

00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:14.419
live there

00:30:16.760 --> 00:30:21.600
no people by the way all architectured

00:30:21.600 --> 00:30:26.039
in my memory in my process but I had

00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:26.820
um

00:30:26.820 --> 00:30:30.539
this context of continuing to search for

00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:34.740
the right memory to be the good student

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:37.620
so the whole time it was trying to find

00:30:37.620 --> 00:30:41.520
what I couldn't find and then

00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:44.520
feeling into

00:30:44.520 --> 00:30:47.460
um how it felt in the kitchen that I

00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:50.640
would come to visit and

00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.100
sleep on the couch

00:30:53.100 --> 00:30:56.220
and open the drawer next to that couch

00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:59.159
and Holly asked me one question what did

00:30:59.159 --> 00:31:02.640
it feel like the couch was still covered

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.740
in the original plastic

00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:09.179
with sheets and blankets on top of it so

00:31:09.179 --> 00:31:10.980
in

00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:15.539
looking at how it felt feeling how it

00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:17.960
felt

00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:22.140
interacting with Katie and Holly about

00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:23.159
that

00:31:23.159 --> 00:31:26.100
I got brought back to how it feel felt

00:31:26.100 --> 00:31:29.820
to be a young man in my two parents

00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:34.399
house my unique upbringing

00:31:34.399 --> 00:31:36.659
and um

00:31:36.659 --> 00:31:39.059
Holly's comment was it sounds like it's

00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:40.799
kind of in the middle of all that

00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.039
plastic being suffocated but anyway

00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:47.539
aside from that

00:31:47.760 --> 00:31:50.760
um the point I want to really get to

00:31:50.760 --> 00:31:53.220
is

00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:56.340
we got to

00:31:56.340 --> 00:31:59.120
how

00:31:59.120 --> 00:32:04.500
amazingly creative we are calling on

00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:10.340
those memories to create the next moment

00:32:10.340 --> 00:32:14.100
moment to moment we're creating

00:32:14.100 --> 00:32:17.539
and choosing those memories that

00:32:17.539 --> 00:32:21.380
fit the assemblage

00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:24.720
and it was portrayed by what Marie said

00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:27.840
how she took the memory and then started

00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:32.039
to do a new story we got into really

00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.860
beautiful stories of our of our members

00:32:34.860 --> 00:32:36.299
so

00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:38.820
that was my experience oh and also the

00:32:38.820 --> 00:32:41.419
other thing is

00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:45.120
it was not the first time I did a

00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:47.940
breakout with Holly and Katie so we knew

00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:51.500
each other very well and I saw their

00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:54.860
their um

00:32:56.179 --> 00:32:59.039
engaging in the exercise and the

00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:03.360
tracking as who I see them as people so

00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:06.840
Katie in her way and Holly and her way

00:33:06.840 --> 00:33:11.100
was really amazing the openness and the

00:33:11.100 --> 00:33:15.980
and the truthfulness that we experience

00:33:25.860 --> 00:33:29.000
just a quick comment

00:33:29.899 --> 00:33:34.679
so the instruction was very specific

00:33:34.679 --> 00:33:37.440
put yourself in the kitchen go to your

00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.240
room look what surrounds all very

00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:40.559
architectural

00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.799
hence for most of you

00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:47.580
you satisfied the present condition

00:33:47.580 --> 00:33:50.039
it's very important to understand about

00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:54.179
false memory and Inception and all this

00:33:54.179 --> 00:33:57.539
this freaky stuff that we pseudo

00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:02.279
psychological psycho technological

00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.919
playgrounds

00:34:04.919 --> 00:34:05.640
um

00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:07.380
so

00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:09.720
um so

00:34:09.720 --> 00:34:13.080
this is just to notice that

00:34:13.080 --> 00:34:15.480
uh

00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:18.179
the prompts the present prompt is a

00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:20.339
strong strange attractor

00:34:20.339 --> 00:34:23.280
to how the memory gets assembled and I

00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.980
wasn't even doing anything creepy

00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:27.720
right

00:34:27.720 --> 00:34:31.020
now go watch guys and stop talking to

00:34:31.020 --> 00:34:32.940
Jean vervaky

00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:36.119
in the after Socrates series and you'll

00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:37.800
see

00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.280
he's working this relationship this

00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:45.119
between accepting ideas and

00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:48.859
being available to ideas

00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:52.740
so that's just one thing to point out it

00:34:52.740 --> 00:34:55.320
came out not as a meta reflection but a

00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:57.480
couple of you said this was interesting

00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.940
it was not because you're

00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:02.400
all of a sudden

00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.200
you're a little kid and you were

00:35:04.200 --> 00:35:07.080
isolated and there's a stark house and

00:35:07.080 --> 00:35:09.900
you're not aware of people

00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:10.740
um

00:35:10.740 --> 00:35:12.119
yeah

00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.339
and Holly gives another present

00:35:14.339 --> 00:35:16.140
instruction and then the mem and then

00:35:16.140 --> 00:35:19.320
the thing moves right so yeah

00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:22.940
so that's a good noticing

00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:35.940
I have to say how scary that is too

00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:39.660
just how manipulable the the memory

00:35:39.660 --> 00:35:41.940
is and can be

00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:44.099
weaponized

00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:46.980
yeah and the and the move here is I mean

00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:49.440
this happens a lot it used to happen in

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.119
the consciousness of studies courses

00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.220
because

00:35:53.220 --> 00:35:54.900
um

00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.700
people would be really intense

00:35:56.700 --> 00:36:00.780
conversation and then someone come in

00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:02.579
the next day and realize that they were

00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:05.160
raped by their sibling which was a

00:36:05.160 --> 00:36:07.820
completely a false memory

00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:10.680
but they were in this memory space and

00:36:10.680 --> 00:36:13.140
feeling and then reinterpreting like

00:36:13.140 --> 00:36:16.140
what had happened to them and

00:36:16.140 --> 00:36:18.540
um in in many cases if you get them into

00:36:18.540 --> 00:36:20.579
the narrative like what Marie said it's

00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:23.040
not possible you know she was not in

00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:26.099
that house at that or whatever

00:36:26.099 --> 00:36:29.760
um so this is very important to uh to

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.859
remember

00:36:31.859 --> 00:36:32.780
um

00:36:32.780 --> 00:36:35.940
and uh yeah there's an ethical component

00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:38.099
okay so the move is

00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:41.700
if someone is you know sometimes it's

00:36:41.700 --> 00:36:43.680
just fun to let people lead you down

00:36:43.680 --> 00:36:47.160
things if it can be very naive but if

00:36:47.160 --> 00:36:49.140
that's happening the move always is is

00:36:49.140 --> 00:36:51.720
to wonder what is this purpose of this

00:36:51.720 --> 00:36:53.820
you have to get the injunction the

00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:56.160
purpose of the injunction

00:36:56.160 --> 00:36:58.320
has to be transparent and then you can

00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:01.740
agree to it or not agree to it like

00:37:01.740 --> 00:37:04.560
um yeah so you gotta step out of the

00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:06.599
diet relationship

00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.359
form the context that the that you're

00:37:09.359 --> 00:37:11.339
going to enter and then and then enter

00:37:11.339 --> 00:37:13.680
it into it like sometimes when we go in

00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:15.540
these these mental

00:37:15.540 --> 00:37:17.640
these people that are mentalists they're

00:37:17.640 --> 00:37:20.820
gonna do a trick on us we know but okay

00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:23.700
that's that's the purpose of it

00:37:23.700 --> 00:37:26.099
um but when it's all spiritualized and

00:37:26.099 --> 00:37:28.200
there's a power asymmetry and all this

00:37:28.200 --> 00:37:32.280
stuff it's uh yeah it can be tricky but

00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.920
it's important to know

00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.460
Alex

00:37:39.540 --> 00:37:41.660
um

00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:45.000
I think all three of us it was me Brian

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.540
and Samuel and we all had

00:37:48.540 --> 00:37:50.940
different the choice of different

00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:55.020
kitchens and house houses

00:37:55.020 --> 00:37:56.280
I think

00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:57.300
um

00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:59.400
and something that I thought was really

00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:02.579
interesting was that

00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:05.040
at least for me and Brian that I can't

00:38:05.040 --> 00:38:09.119
remember about Samuel but there was this

00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.599
present the present kitchen

00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:15.180
house that we still have

00:38:15.180 --> 00:38:17.579
access to because our parents lived

00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:19.380
there because we I still live in the

00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:20.520
house

00:38:20.520 --> 00:38:25.220
that I lived in from age seven

00:38:25.579 --> 00:38:28.800
I went back to the house so there's like

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.740
this superposition of time

00:38:31.740 --> 00:38:34.500
on the same place

00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:38.900
that seemed that that took on kind of a

00:38:39.180 --> 00:38:42.060
an instructive or it was informative in

00:38:42.060 --> 00:38:43.200
a way

00:38:43.200 --> 00:38:47.400
that the discernment of time

00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:49.560
the difference that time makes like what

00:38:49.560 --> 00:38:50.880
what is it

00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.160
what was it then and what is it now it's

00:38:53.160 --> 00:38:55.980
the same place

00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:59.579
and Brian made an interesting comment

00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:01.260
that the

00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:05.240
he found the the old the memory the old

00:39:05.240 --> 00:39:07.800
childhood version of the place to be

00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.020
much more interesting

00:39:10.020 --> 00:39:14.160
like there was a curiosity and uh

00:39:14.160 --> 00:39:16.740
sort of an affect of curiosity that

00:39:16.740 --> 00:39:19.079
almost to me it felt like a Nostalgia

00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:21.720
like the attraction of nostalgia

00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:24.359
or something like that I'm not sure how

00:39:24.359 --> 00:39:26.220
Brian experienced it exactly we didn't

00:39:26.220 --> 00:39:29.640
get he didn't get to say

00:39:29.640 --> 00:39:32.040
but there was something about the the

00:39:32.040 --> 00:39:33.720
draw

00:39:33.720 --> 00:39:35.460
of the

00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.520
memory versus the more pre or the older

00:39:38.520 --> 00:39:40.619
memories from versus the more recent

00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:42.540
memories that I thought was

00:39:42.540 --> 00:39:44.820
interesting

00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:46.380
well they're probably assembled in

00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:48.300
different ways

00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:50.099
if you want to use that language buying

00:39:50.099 --> 00:39:53.180
can't you parse that out

00:39:54.560 --> 00:39:57.180
yeah I just we would

00:39:57.180 --> 00:39:59.220
it just felt like a toggle I could

00:39:59.220 --> 00:40:02.160
choose today you know where my parents

00:40:02.160 --> 00:40:05.339
my the bedroom that I have in is really

00:40:05.339 --> 00:40:08.520
not very interesting or

00:40:08.520 --> 00:40:12.720
and so I made that choice and then

00:40:12.720 --> 00:40:15.540
and then it did assemble the way I

00:40:15.540 --> 00:40:18.359
remembered you know where and then of

00:40:18.359 --> 00:40:20.040
course we

00:40:20.040 --> 00:40:22.980
closet or drawer I chose the drawer and

00:40:22.980 --> 00:40:24.240
then

00:40:24.240 --> 00:40:26.339
then we talked about what was in that

00:40:26.339 --> 00:40:31.500
drawer which was very Vivid and then we

00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:35.760
was interesting from there is then

00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.940
so it was very Visual and then

00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:40.500
but then there were some other things

00:40:40.500 --> 00:40:42.020
that led into

00:40:42.020 --> 00:40:45.240
as you you were talking about

00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:47.300
these

00:40:47.300 --> 00:40:50.520
very you know these affect stories like

00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:53.280
a trophy and what that

00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.099
opened up in terms of a of the feeling

00:40:56.099 --> 00:41:00.060
of a of winning that Trophy and

00:41:00.060 --> 00:41:03.359
so yeah it was very but I

00:41:03.359 --> 00:41:05.220
just found that really interesting

00:41:05.220 --> 00:41:08.280
feeling that toggle between choices of

00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:11.160
of where I could go with that in that

00:41:11.160 --> 00:41:14.240
first step into the room

00:41:17.160 --> 00:41:20.220
so is it would you say that

00:41:20.220 --> 00:41:23.280
we assembled certain feelings and the

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.400
new memory has different feelings

00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:28.560
yeah yeah

00:41:28.560 --> 00:41:30.180
right so those are the different

00:41:30.180 --> 00:41:32.460
assemblages right same room

00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:34.740
pulling together different different

00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:37.980
assemblages different memory

00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:40.020
I felt like there was a the attraction

00:41:40.020 --> 00:41:43.380
of them the distinction to me like the

00:41:43.380 --> 00:41:45.720
attraction of the older memory was that

00:41:45.720 --> 00:41:49.079
there was valuable information there

00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:51.300
like it was the information they could

00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:52.339
be

00:41:52.339 --> 00:41:55.680
retrieved and I mean affective

00:41:55.680 --> 00:41:57.180
information

00:41:57.180 --> 00:42:00.420
was somehow more valuable

00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:03.980
to retrieve it than say the more recent

00:42:03.980 --> 00:42:08.240
version of memory

00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.820
I don't think it was because it felt

00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:19.280
better

00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.200
I mentioned Nostalgia which kind of

00:42:22.200 --> 00:42:24.660
feels kind of Bittersweet but

00:42:24.660 --> 00:42:27.300
I'm not sure that it was more valuable

00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:30.960
because I wanted to feel nostalgic

00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.720
and I like that I value that affective

00:42:33.720 --> 00:42:35.880
State there's there's something there

00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:39.079
that felt like more

00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:43.320
vitally important to to know or to

00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.500
remember

00:42:45.660 --> 00:42:48.839
maybe because it's not as clear not as

00:42:48.839 --> 00:42:52.280
complete I'm not sure

00:43:03.020 --> 00:43:05.579
for me it was

00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:08.160
um yeah I like the word Sandra used

00:43:08.160 --> 00:43:11.280
architecture so it was for me

00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:14.040
like even architecting like trying to

00:43:14.040 --> 00:43:16.020
get into

00:43:16.020 --> 00:43:19.680
um figuring out what it looked like and

00:43:19.680 --> 00:43:23.099
yeah this was this was uh and then try

00:43:23.099 --> 00:43:24.839
like trying to see the connection with a

00:43:24.839 --> 00:43:27.119
prompt like with the prom like you said

00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:29.040
they they invite more architectural

00:43:29.040 --> 00:43:30.300
thinking about

00:43:30.300 --> 00:43:32.460
the memory of the past so it was

00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:34.319
interesting

00:43:34.319 --> 00:43:36.359
I mean Moses think like when in therapy

00:43:36.359 --> 00:43:39.720
I go to like an back-end event

00:43:39.720 --> 00:43:41.880
um like what I'm actually doing there

00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.140
um

00:43:43.140 --> 00:43:44.520
I don't know I've been thinking about

00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:48.720
this but it was just south came up um

00:43:48.720 --> 00:43:50.460
yeah

00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:52.460
um

00:44:00.359 --> 00:44:03.720
we do a little exercise I need to choose

00:44:03.720 --> 00:44:07.920
somewhere okay The Prompt today was to

00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:11.339
um we're gonna remember the

00:44:11.339 --> 00:44:13.260
house we grew up in for some people

00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:15.240
there was multiple houses so they had to

00:44:15.240 --> 00:44:17.460
choose and some people their parents are

00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:18.839
still in that house

00:44:18.839 --> 00:44:21.920
so they're talking about

00:44:22.020 --> 00:44:25.140
present time and past time we had them

00:44:25.140 --> 00:44:28.319
Place themselves in front of the sink

00:44:28.319 --> 00:44:30.599
notice what was around

00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:34.280
go into their own room

00:44:34.319 --> 00:44:37.980
open either a closet or a drawer and

00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:40.140
look to see what was in there basically

00:44:40.140 --> 00:44:42.359
that was the

00:44:42.359 --> 00:44:45.660
but the whole point is is to notice what

00:44:45.660 --> 00:44:48.180
the memory is assembling could be a

00:44:48.180 --> 00:44:50.420
feeling could be very in a lot of images

00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:56.119
could be like fake fuzzy images but

00:44:56.160 --> 00:44:59.160
like when I turn from the kitchen to

00:44:59.160 --> 00:45:00.359
that little corner where the three

00:45:00.359 --> 00:45:03.180
bedrooms were it feels differently

00:45:03.180 --> 00:45:06.079
feels completely different

00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.420
some of it is you have to use our minds

00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:12.240
so we we have to fill the memory in with

00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:15.599
well what must she have had so

00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:18.060
I might have the old bedding that my

00:45:18.060 --> 00:45:19.740
mother used to have in storage

00:45:19.740 --> 00:45:22.200
downstairs and then oh that must have

00:45:22.200 --> 00:45:24.300
been on the bed and this is more of a

00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:27.839
narrative some narrative uh assembling

00:45:27.839 --> 00:45:31.020
some narrative present-day narrative

00:45:31.020 --> 00:45:34.319
um yeah so this is what we're describing

00:45:34.319 --> 00:45:39.200
like how the memory assembles itself

00:45:40.619 --> 00:45:44.160
um but now I want to get someone who it

00:45:44.160 --> 00:45:46.380
was very good some of your you you

00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:48.420
people who are very very good image

00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:50.220
memory

00:45:50.220 --> 00:45:51.079
um

00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:55.260
to do an exercise demo with you so

00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:57.119
someone who can stand in front of that

00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:58.920
kitchen sink

00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:04.380
and see that kitchen sink and see things

00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:07.200
on it like really populate

00:46:07.200 --> 00:46:09.359
uh

00:46:09.359 --> 00:46:13.460
that that experience with images

00:46:14.640 --> 00:46:17.400
so someone who had that experience can

00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.060
volunteer

00:46:25.619 --> 00:46:28.560
I'll volunteer okay because you said it

00:46:28.560 --> 00:46:32.280
was very image popular okay so you have

00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:34.740
to do two things at the same time

00:46:34.740 --> 00:46:36.240
but that's why I have to pick someone

00:46:36.240 --> 00:46:38.460
who's easy for it to Envision or else

00:46:38.460 --> 00:46:41.180
it's too much too much work

00:46:41.180 --> 00:46:46.560
uh uh what's KK it's too much work for

00:46:46.560 --> 00:46:48.560
um

00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:50.819
yeah that's why we have to pick someone

00:46:50.819 --> 00:46:53.220
who can get stay with the visualization

00:46:53.220 --> 00:46:55.260
rather easily because it's too much work

00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:57.660
for those people who fade in and out to

00:46:57.660 --> 00:47:00.540
do both these things at the same time

00:47:00.540 --> 00:47:02.760
so I want you to stay with the

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.359
visualization as as you know stay in the

00:47:06.359 --> 00:47:09.119
same place uh sometimes that means you

00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:10.440
have to move

00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:13.079
and then recreate but stay so it's as

00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.040
Vivid as possible

00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:21.180
and then I want you to try like after a

00:47:21.180 --> 00:47:23.040
couple seconds as you're really

00:47:23.040 --> 00:47:26.099
processing I want you to see if some

00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:29.760
part of your body is hotter and is doing

00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.040
more work than other parts of your body

00:47:32.040 --> 00:47:34.079
so like when you're working on math you

00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:35.940
know this what this feels like because

00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:39.780
there's not enough sugar okay or so I

00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:42.240
want so you're going to try to identify

00:47:42.240 --> 00:47:44.579
what have what it what part of your body

00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:48.020
is doing the work

00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:50.940
okay okay

00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:53.040
so

00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:57.020
so you just stay with it for a while

00:47:58.619 --> 00:48:01.560
so in the kitchen yeah or whatever's

00:48:01.560 --> 00:48:06.200
most Vivid for you getting so yeah

00:48:45.839 --> 00:48:48.839
so it's changing a little bit but what I

00:48:48.839 --> 00:48:50.280
can feel is

00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:52.280
um

00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:56.300
like warmth

00:48:56.300 --> 00:48:58.980
Rising this way

00:48:58.980 --> 00:49:01.819
and then

00:49:02.700 --> 00:49:04.740
yeah your ears are hot

00:49:04.740 --> 00:49:07.859
yeah here

00:49:11.700 --> 00:49:14.160
and tingling yeah your ears are hot

00:49:14.160 --> 00:49:16.700
that's usually what I do when I do this

00:49:16.700 --> 00:49:19.079
because that's your where your visual

00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.540
cortex is back here

00:49:21.540 --> 00:49:27.420
and right so so basically there's a

00:49:27.420 --> 00:49:30.180
persistent keeping with the affect to

00:49:30.180 --> 00:49:32.099
keep yourself there but because you're

00:49:32.099 --> 00:49:33.900
very good at Imaging

00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:36.599
your ears light up because your visual

00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:38.880
cortex

00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:41.720
is playing the record backwards

00:49:41.720 --> 00:49:45.720
it's recreating exactly the patterns it

00:49:45.720 --> 00:49:47.760
did when you were actually looking at

00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.619
your kitchen and it's it's giving them

00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:53.640
to you without the external prompt

00:49:53.640 --> 00:49:56.900
yeah your ears get hot it's wild

00:49:56.900 --> 00:49:59.280
this is like teachers like me that

00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.200
people think more magic because I like I

00:50:01.200 --> 00:50:03.839
could say are your ears getting hot you

00:50:03.839 --> 00:50:05.339
know

00:50:05.339 --> 00:50:08.640
um yeah because that's and it's it's a

00:50:08.640 --> 00:50:11.480
good one because it's paradoxical

00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:14.819
because our visual cortex is at the back

00:50:14.819 --> 00:50:17.240
of our head so it's a really good

00:50:17.240 --> 00:50:21.119
example of of that because it's so not

00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:22.440
here because you could say well that's

00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:26.359
because my eyes think it's looking no no

00:50:26.359 --> 00:50:29.160
so it's a good kind just because of the

00:50:29.160 --> 00:50:31.619
way it's oriented the visual visual

00:50:31.619 --> 00:50:34.800
cortex is the back of your head okay so

00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.980
this is not this is an example of what

00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:41.220
we mean by putting the Mind back into

00:50:41.220 --> 00:50:42.300
the body

00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:45.180
right I mean this very good phenomenal

00:50:45.180 --> 00:50:46.440
work

00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:48.660
um and we can understand this stuff from

00:50:48.660 --> 00:50:52.260
first person experience and

00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:57.240
um understand a little bit about uh

00:50:57.240 --> 00:51:01.859
um the interceptive how we can be

00:51:01.859 --> 00:51:04.619
receptive to our interceptive processes

00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:07.500
this one's kind of an easy an easy one

00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:10.200
but all the other ones all the other

00:51:10.200 --> 00:51:13.319
assemblage points are also you can track

00:51:13.319 --> 00:51:15.540
them by

00:51:15.540 --> 00:51:18.500
heat in your body or

00:51:18.500 --> 00:51:21.900
activity in your body however it's very

00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:24.599
hard to use the right word because it's

00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:26.220
different for different things but this

00:51:26.220 --> 00:51:28.920
is part of what you really want to do

00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:32.160
the Deep phenomenology around memory is

00:51:32.160 --> 00:51:34.740
is something we can add add to the

00:51:34.740 --> 00:51:36.980
practice

00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:42.180
so it's not stored there

00:51:42.180 --> 00:51:47.280
it's it's tagged with a an affect that

00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:48.800
then

00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:52.319
lights up the same pattern that was

00:51:52.319 --> 00:51:53.579
lighting up when you were actually

00:51:53.579 --> 00:51:56.640
looking at these things in real time and

00:51:56.640 --> 00:52:00.059
the pat it's not so precise that you get

00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:02.339
a hallucination I mean we know when

00:52:02.339 --> 00:52:05.099
we're looking at it it's not as detailed

00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:07.260
as actually going and looking at it we

00:52:07.260 --> 00:52:11.280
know this we're not fooled by this but

00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:13.319
this is kind of what's Happening do you

00:52:13.319 --> 00:52:16.640
want to comment on that Sandra

00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.440
it was it was interesting because it

00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:22.440
felt like the the feeling or the

00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:24.900
sensation sort of

00:52:24.900 --> 00:52:28.619
started very low but quickly started

00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:30.660
like percolating

00:52:30.660 --> 00:52:36.000
and I could at one point I could sense

00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.000
the breakfast room on one side and the

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.800
paint on the

00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.200
on the wings there's like sort of like

00:52:43.200 --> 00:52:46.920
wainscoting or paneling and as soon as

00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:50.339
that happened just everything started to

00:52:50.339 --> 00:52:51.680
like

00:52:51.680 --> 00:52:55.079
vibrate and yeah yeah all right yeah

00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:56.760
yeah but you could see where I had to

00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:58.559
pick someone that has a lot of imagery

00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:01.260
because it would stay low you know it

00:53:01.260 --> 00:53:03.059
would stay more low in the body and not

00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:05.579
be able to be you have to get so much

00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:09.440
going on here that actually it's hot

00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:15.059
one thing I noticed Bonnie when I read

00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:17.220
the material and I started just getting

00:53:17.220 --> 00:53:22.160
curious about memory in general

00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:27.000
is the memories that are very

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.859
um

00:53:28.859 --> 00:53:32.520
Salient for me are the ones in nature so

00:53:32.520 --> 00:53:35.819
it was interesting that this was

00:53:35.819 --> 00:53:39.180
situated inside of a you know that we

00:53:39.180 --> 00:53:42.420
started inside of a building

00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:45.780
because a lot of the just the general if

00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:48.660
I like Justin said he was given this

00:53:48.660 --> 00:53:52.200
assignment to go you know back in time

00:53:52.200 --> 00:53:55.319
a lot of the memories that are very

00:53:55.319 --> 00:53:59.040
alive are the ones that are outside in

00:53:59.040 --> 00:54:01.880
in nature

00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:06.140
madalina

00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:10.800
this is perhaps a little

00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:12.480
site

00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:13.319
um

00:54:13.319 --> 00:54:15.720
thought for you know life the whole

00:54:15.720 --> 00:54:19.380
course not not just today but

00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:20.640
um

00:54:20.640 --> 00:54:24.420
you know all of a sudden uh struck me

00:54:24.420 --> 00:54:27.059
that an entire generation of children

00:54:27.059 --> 00:54:30.660
are going to have a very different I

00:54:30.660 --> 00:54:31.640
think

00:54:31.640 --> 00:54:37.099
experience of kitchens after confinement

00:54:39.540 --> 00:54:43.140
yeah I mean that's one thing but but

00:54:43.140 --> 00:54:44.160
um

00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:47.819
yeah because memories are not like

00:54:47.819 --> 00:54:50.880
cameras they're conditioned and then

00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:55.079
they're updated and stuff then yes when

00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:57.660
the world changes this rapidly then the

00:54:57.660 --> 00:55:00.240
kinds of assemblages that people make

00:55:00.240 --> 00:55:02.460
will be different now there are all

00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:05.640
kinds of people like I have very strong

00:55:05.640 --> 00:55:08.460
memories around nature we could go on to

00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:09.780
something else we're going to do one

00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:14.280
more exercise before uh before we finish

00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:17.059
today but

00:55:17.099 --> 00:55:19.680
um there's all kinds of things like when

00:55:19.680 --> 00:55:22.559
I'm looking for a quote

00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:25.800
I can remember what side of the page of

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.260
a book it's probably on now I'm not

00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:31.079
always right but there's this very

00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:34.640
palpable like

00:55:34.640 --> 00:55:36.720
experience that I was looking I think

00:55:36.720 --> 00:55:38.700
it's right brain and left brain I I

00:55:38.700 --> 00:55:41.520
think like it's very palpable which

00:55:41.520 --> 00:55:44.339
which you know and the way you find

00:55:44.339 --> 00:55:46.079
things

00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:47.700
um so this is something to play around

00:55:47.700 --> 00:55:50.339
with like how what is happening it's not

00:55:50.339 --> 00:55:52.200
always correct and sometimes I'm really

00:55:52.200 --> 00:55:54.839
surprised because I've got this book

00:55:54.839 --> 00:55:57.119
mashed up with this book and it's I'm

00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.059
looking at the wrong book but

00:56:00.059 --> 00:56:04.740
um yeah so for some some people

00:56:04.740 --> 00:56:06.780
uh

00:56:06.780 --> 00:56:09.839
because they're just so some people's

00:56:09.839 --> 00:56:13.800
nature some people it's book books or

00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.680
um you know whatever is really

00:56:16.680 --> 00:56:19.500
um Salient to you can

00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:22.020
be populate your memories different than

00:56:22.020 --> 00:56:24.119
stand in front of your kitchen kitchen

00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:26.880
house so I try to start with things that

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:29.700
are neutral nothing's really neutral but

00:56:29.700 --> 00:56:31.760
um

00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:33.720
um yeah

00:56:33.720 --> 00:56:34.440
um

00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:37.740
but that's that's something that is

00:56:37.740 --> 00:56:41.160
is these developmental Fields change

00:56:41.160 --> 00:56:43.440
everything change person psychology the

00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:46.200
way the memory assembles memories

00:56:46.200 --> 00:56:50.520
etc etc and of course autistic people

00:56:50.520 --> 00:56:52.440
um these neural atypical people don't

00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:54.980
assemble memories in the same way at all

00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:59.119
if that changes also

00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:01.740
um I just want to say something I I just

00:57:01.740 --> 00:57:03.240
noticed something about my own memory

00:57:03.240 --> 00:57:04.980
which is um

00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:06.839
which is fascinating and I think about

00:57:06.839 --> 00:57:10.500
it I recognize faces and I can tell

00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:13.200
where I've seen them before because when

00:57:13.200 --> 00:57:14.460
my kids used to watch TV they said

00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.079
they'd come in and say who is that I

00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:17.880
said oh nobody was in this

00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:20.460
but if I am with someone

00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:22.500
even if I haven't seen him in decades I

00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:24.059
remember their name in their face every

00:57:24.059 --> 00:57:24.960
time

00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:27.599
I will just know

00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:29.280
but when I'm not with them it's

00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:32.280
completely different okay this brings us

00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:34.500
actually to the next exercise we're

00:57:34.500 --> 00:57:35.640
going to do

00:57:35.640 --> 00:57:37.380
I had two of them and I didn't know

00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:40.740
which one to choose but I go with the

00:57:40.740 --> 00:57:44.280
universe offers us so this may be not

00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:45.960
that interesting to you Jess Justin

00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:48.839
because it's so automatic

00:57:48.839 --> 00:57:51.540
um uh but we're trying

00:57:51.540 --> 00:57:54.599
we're trying to have instructions that

00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:57.960
unfold slow slowly so people can figure

00:57:57.960 --> 00:57:59.520
out where does it come from so I want

00:57:59.520 --> 00:58:01.859
you to think about someone that you see

00:58:01.859 --> 00:58:05.640
often but you do not know them

00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:09.839
in a real person uh uh for reasons that

00:58:09.839 --> 00:58:11.880
I won't disclose but you do not know

00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:13.740
them

00:58:13.740 --> 00:58:16.200
you don't know their names

00:58:16.200 --> 00:58:18.960
but you see them often so could be a

00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:20.760
cashier at a grocery store for example

00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:24.300
that's a or something like that

00:58:24.300 --> 00:58:24.980
um

00:58:24.980 --> 00:58:30.020
and I want you to

00:58:33.059 --> 00:58:35.579
I want you to we're going to put you

00:58:35.579 --> 00:58:40.740
mostly in dyads for like uh 10 minutes I

00:58:40.740 --> 00:58:46.040
want you to describe what they look like

00:58:46.619 --> 00:58:49.500
how much how do you know they're

00:58:49.500 --> 00:58:51.540
familiar they're completely familiar to

00:58:51.540 --> 00:58:52.920
you

00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:55.319
know they're I'm looking at one right

00:58:55.319 --> 00:58:58.020
now here she is

00:58:58.020 --> 00:59:00.480
in the grocery store

00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:04.440
um and see if you can describe what she

00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:07.200
looks like so we'll be in mostly dyads

00:59:07.200 --> 00:59:11.160
so you can actually verbalize that

00:59:11.160 --> 00:59:13.160
um

00:59:13.859 --> 00:59:17.400
um so I'm going to recreate and I'm

00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.359
going to have

00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:26.000
can't have one participant

00:59:26.220 --> 00:59:28.220
um

00:59:29.819 --> 00:59:34.500
let's see three three two

00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:37.319
okay on one one room is going to have

00:59:37.319 --> 00:59:40.559
three and that's pretty cool

00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:45.180
um we'll do this for uh

00:59:46.619 --> 00:59:48.299
12 minutes

00:59:48.299 --> 00:59:52.020
now the when the person is listening to

00:59:52.020 --> 00:59:55.980
How uh we'll do 14 we'll do 15. when the

00:59:55.980 --> 00:59:58.859
person's listening to how that person is

00:59:58.859 --> 01:00:01.280
is saying

01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:04.380
make some mental notes of what you see

01:00:04.380 --> 01:00:06.119
happening because sometimes it's hard

01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:08.579
for the person to see what they're all

01:00:08.579 --> 01:00:10.260
what's happening as they're trying to

01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:12.000
remember and kind of easy for the other

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:13.740
person okay

01:00:13.740 --> 01:00:16.859
so someone you know get bring them right

01:00:16.859 --> 01:00:19.440
up to mind you might say I can see her

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.500
there right now she's I'm at the end of

01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:25.799
the cash rate cashier and she's here

01:00:25.799 --> 01:00:27.900
I'm looking at her and then or and

01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:30.319
really try to

01:00:30.319 --> 01:00:32.940
describe what she's wearing what her eye

01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:36.059
color is what her face is like

01:00:36.059 --> 01:00:38.760
um yeah see how good we're at that okay

01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:42.559
15 minutes I'll see you soon

01:00:58.590 --> 01:01:01.719
[Music]

01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:05.420
okay

01:01:05.579 --> 01:01:09.059
here's maybe from some other people or

01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:11.280
new people who just joined they did the

01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:13.500
exercise that's cool too was it the same

01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:16.140
was it different Let's uh yeah what did

01:01:16.140 --> 01:01:18.059
you notice about yourself or the other

01:01:18.059 --> 01:01:20.359
person

01:01:21.059 --> 01:01:23.900
Susan

01:01:24.059 --> 01:01:27.240
I noticed that this memory

01:01:27.240 --> 01:01:30.480
um I had a lot more

01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:32.520
feeling

01:01:32.520 --> 01:01:34.020
um like good feeling I don't know

01:01:34.020 --> 01:01:36.599
because this this person that came to me

01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:40.020
right away is a bus driver

01:01:40.020 --> 01:01:42.500
um that takes me to and from campus

01:01:42.500 --> 01:01:46.520
and he's just he's just a lovely person

01:01:46.520 --> 01:01:49.559
and you know he just we always smile and

01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:52.319
say hello and we you know talk if

01:01:52.319 --> 01:01:55.200
there's space to do that

01:01:55.200 --> 01:01:58.200
um and I and I've really only come in

01:01:58.200 --> 01:02:01.680
contact with him over the last I'd say

01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:03.299
month

01:02:03.299 --> 01:02:06.119
um and that somehow my my schedule is

01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:08.940
sort of coinciding with his

01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:10.799
and

01:02:10.799 --> 01:02:14.280
he just is he's he's someone who and I

01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:16.319
could clearly see him although there's a

01:02:16.319 --> 01:02:18.720
couple questions like pretty sure he has

01:02:18.720 --> 01:02:20.760
a beard

01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.280
um and I'll notice next time but it's

01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:27.660
like but I can really his smile his

01:02:27.660 --> 01:02:32.819
smile I can see yeah really

01:02:33.660 --> 01:02:35.579
yeah sure

01:02:35.579 --> 01:02:37.200
um

01:02:37.200 --> 01:02:40.380
maybe you could maybe make his smile oh

01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:42.420
yeah I well my mouth is so different but

01:02:42.420 --> 01:02:46.200
oh okay you know it's like a full okay

01:02:46.200 --> 01:02:48.420
you know no I can't do it because my

01:02:48.420 --> 01:02:50.640
mouth is is different but

01:02:50.640 --> 01:02:53.819
um it's a very wide and really sort of

01:02:53.819 --> 01:02:57.480
his whole face and his eyes you know

01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:01.079
like his whole sort of being is smiling

01:03:01.079 --> 01:03:04.020
and it's very and it feels super sincere

01:03:04.020 --> 01:03:06.900
like it doesn't feel like

01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:10.020
he's posing in any kind of way he's just

01:03:10.020 --> 01:03:12.900
generally genuinely

01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:16.640
there he's just very present

01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:20.780
what color it is yeah so he's he's

01:03:20.780 --> 01:03:25.980
African-American he has like a short

01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:27.960
cut

01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:29.160
um

01:03:29.160 --> 01:03:33.720
he has very dark beautiful eyes

01:03:33.720 --> 01:03:35.940
um like because the White and the dark

01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:38.640
are really contrasty

01:03:38.640 --> 01:03:41.040
um yeah and he's got I'm pretty sure he

01:03:41.040 --> 01:03:43.680
does have a beard

01:03:43.680 --> 01:03:46.140
um it's kind of like a full fullness in

01:03:46.140 --> 01:03:50.400
his face here these very fit you know

01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:51.839
um

01:03:51.839 --> 01:03:54.599
and

01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:56.880
I think his nose

01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:59.700
his nose is some you know kind of

01:03:59.700 --> 01:04:01.740
it's very proportionate he's very you

01:04:01.740 --> 01:04:04.380
know you find him handsome

01:04:04.380 --> 01:04:07.479
[Music]

01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:15.119
that was so fun

01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:18.599
it was so fun it was so interesting to

01:04:18.599 --> 01:04:21.240
feel the complexity of

01:04:21.240 --> 01:04:25.020
this assemblage because before really I

01:04:25.020 --> 01:04:27.420
just thought my memory is in my mind

01:04:27.420 --> 01:04:30.180
and and I already can tell wildly how

01:04:30.180 --> 01:04:32.520
different that is

01:04:32.520 --> 01:04:33.960
um a couple really interesting things

01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:35.520
that happened when I was Conjuring my

01:04:35.520 --> 01:04:37.079
memory it was a guy who works in a

01:04:37.079 --> 01:04:39.599
hardware store and when I saw him behind

01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:41.880
the counter and I got to where is his

01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:44.819
logo where is his logo he wears a red

01:04:44.819 --> 01:04:47.220
shirt with a yellow Home Hardware logo

01:04:47.220 --> 01:04:49.440
but then I had to I was like

01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:52.440
I was doing this thing like is it on his

01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:54.420
left side because I think I see it on

01:04:54.420 --> 01:04:56.040
his right side but I don't know I'll

01:04:56.040 --> 01:04:58.680
have to check next time I go but I felt

01:04:58.680 --> 01:05:00.240
this spatial

01:05:00.240 --> 01:05:03.960
thing come in for me him how I see like

01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:08.040
to feel where is that logo it was really

01:05:08.040 --> 01:05:09.000
cool

01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:12.299
and another thing that happened was um

01:05:12.299 --> 01:05:14.220
I see him walking around my neighborhood

01:05:14.220 --> 01:05:16.559
walking his little dog and he wears this

01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:18.900
hat that has like the thing on the top

01:05:18.900 --> 01:05:21.240
and a brim and one of the brim sides is

01:05:21.240 --> 01:05:24.000
like folded up but when I said that I

01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:26.520
said this and the side is folded up and

01:05:26.520 --> 01:05:28.799
I hit the side of my head hard I'm like

01:05:28.799 --> 01:05:31.619
why and it's because there's something I

01:05:31.619 --> 01:05:35.160
don't like about that style and so in my

01:05:35.160 --> 01:05:37.740
memory I'm letting the sides folded up

01:05:37.740 --> 01:05:40.200
and there was like this emphasis

01:05:40.200 --> 01:05:42.839
so it's a couple of things to note that

01:05:42.839 --> 01:05:46.500
we're yeah free game so part of what

01:05:46.500 --> 01:05:49.079
you're also assembling so this is a very

01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:51.660
good noticing and

01:05:51.660 --> 01:05:52.559
um

01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:55.440
so you went like that but part of the

01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:57.720
feeling spatial feeling of someone could

01:05:57.720 --> 01:06:00.480
be a micro threshold

01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:02.339
like you

01:06:02.339 --> 01:06:04.440
part of your memory might actually be

01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:07.440
not that you actually hit your head but

01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:10.380
this like if you imagine hitting your

01:06:10.380 --> 01:06:12.799
side of your head just like you did

01:06:12.799 --> 01:06:18.619
that feeling might be in the assemblage

01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:22.380
when you remember him

01:06:22.380 --> 01:06:25.440
at a micro level

01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:27.359
I'm not sure I understand what you're

01:06:27.359 --> 01:06:28.799
saying

01:06:28.799 --> 01:06:30.119
um so

01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:32.400
I'm not saying this is the case for you

01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:35.280
yeah but a lot of times when you said oh

01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:37.680
this kind of feeling of what he's like

01:06:37.680 --> 01:06:41.940
is in my memory of him

01:06:41.940 --> 01:06:44.880
if if I imagine hitting my head the way

01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:46.500
you just did

01:06:46.500 --> 01:06:48.839
that okay you can imagine that has a

01:06:48.839 --> 01:06:51.000
feeling tone to it right

01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:54.240
that might be part of the feeling that's

01:06:54.240 --> 01:06:56.280
assembled

01:06:56.280 --> 01:06:58.500
in your memory subconscious you can't

01:06:58.500 --> 01:07:01.140
you can't you can't find it but

01:07:01.140 --> 01:07:03.420
some of these things if it doesn't land

01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:05.819
for you doesn't land for you so

01:07:05.819 --> 01:07:09.960
um yeah so this notion of space and

01:07:09.960 --> 01:07:11.760
feeling and

01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:14.280
and like you were doing this with your

01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:17.720
hands this might be

01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:20.579
um kind of movement tone that you

01:07:20.579 --> 01:07:22.799
associate with him that creates the

01:07:22.799 --> 01:07:26.039
feeling of him in in your memory

01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:29.039
but yeah has anyone ever taken LSD and

01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:31.799
looked at their face

01:07:31.799 --> 01:07:34.579
what happens

01:07:35.460 --> 01:07:37.319
there's a lot of movement going on

01:07:37.319 --> 01:07:39.240
that's what I would say it's not quite a

01:07:39.240 --> 01:07:40.799
face is it

01:07:40.799 --> 01:07:42.900
well if you know it moves and the color

01:07:42.900 --> 01:07:45.059
shift it's just there's a lot of there's

01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:48.119
a lot going on it looks like uh dolly or

01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:50.339
you know the the way AI

01:07:50.339 --> 01:07:53.339
yeah that's because this is actually we

01:07:53.339 --> 01:07:54.359
don't

01:07:54.359 --> 01:07:57.119
what we know is that we don't recognize

01:07:57.119 --> 01:07:59.579
faces the same way we recognize what's

01:07:59.579 --> 01:08:01.680
on the kitchen

01:08:01.680 --> 01:08:05.940
uh we recognize them through feeling

01:08:05.940 --> 01:08:09.839
uh and then we we and we don't really

01:08:09.839 --> 01:08:12.000
recognize them

01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:14.520
uh like do you ever look across campus

01:08:14.520 --> 01:08:15.960
and you see someone walking across

01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:18.239
campus you know exactly who it is

01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:19.980
right you don't see their face you don't

01:08:19.980 --> 01:08:22.620
recognize their clothes it's not a

01:08:22.620 --> 01:08:24.480
puzzle like that

01:08:24.480 --> 01:08:28.140
it's all these other uh healing cues

01:08:28.140 --> 01:08:30.900
that that create these strong markers of

01:08:30.900 --> 01:08:33.660
familiarity with faces

01:08:33.660 --> 01:08:36.259
um uh

01:08:36.259 --> 01:08:39.600
so a blind baby can recognize the face

01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:42.259
of their mother

01:08:46.679 --> 01:08:49.319
you know for myself oh sorry go ahead no

01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:51.060
oh I was just gonna say there was a

01:08:51.060 --> 01:08:53.460
strong olofactory component because the

01:08:53.460 --> 01:08:56.100
woman I associated with is a waitress at

01:08:56.100 --> 01:08:57.000
this

01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:59.640
diner called The Hungry Hunter and it's

01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:02.699
just you know it's fried and everything

01:09:02.699 --> 01:09:03.239
um

01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:05.040
and so I was telling Justin you know

01:09:05.040 --> 01:09:06.960
there's already like this sort of sense

01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:10.859
of effortfulness or like a kind of

01:09:10.859 --> 01:09:13.440
um that that smell of the fried food

01:09:13.440 --> 01:09:15.660
already puts my body in a certain State

01:09:15.660 --> 01:09:18.420
and and he was describing his guy from a

01:09:18.420 --> 01:09:20.400
co-op and automatically the

01:09:20.400 --> 01:09:22.799
environment's already priming a feeling

01:09:22.799 --> 01:09:24.980
about who this guy is before he even

01:09:24.980 --> 01:09:27.600
describes describes him so we were kind

01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:29.520
of talking a little bit too about the

01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:30.660
environment

01:09:30.660 --> 01:09:32.819
um and then of course I think smell is

01:09:32.819 --> 01:09:35.779
so tied to Memories

01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:39.859
foreign

01:09:50.120 --> 01:09:52.859
book learner too so I go back to your

01:09:52.859 --> 01:09:53.880
article

01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:57.120
and uh the way I would if I'm just

01:09:57.120 --> 01:09:59.699
asking if I'm accurate here the four

01:09:59.699 --> 01:10:01.980
things in that first paragraph of your

01:10:01.980 --> 01:10:06.000
article you to assemble or remember is

01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:08.940
what sensation so that's tied to what

01:10:08.940 --> 01:10:10.460
you were talking about sensation

01:10:10.460 --> 01:10:13.800
perception imagination

01:10:13.800 --> 01:10:16.980
and action those four things

01:10:16.980 --> 01:10:20.040
is all interrelated within that

01:10:20.040 --> 01:10:23.520
that accurate

01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:31.980
so when Susan's

01:10:31.980 --> 01:10:35.820
um remembering the bus driver there

01:10:35.820 --> 01:10:39.000
could be a slight sub threshold stepping

01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:42.179
up onto the bus in her body and that's

01:10:42.179 --> 01:10:44.000
part that's part of

01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:47.280
assembling the memory or

01:10:47.280 --> 01:10:48.600
um

01:10:48.600 --> 01:10:51.380
uh

01:10:51.980 --> 01:10:55.199
just the way

01:10:55.199 --> 01:10:57.260
um

01:10:57.960 --> 01:10:59.820
when you when you just when you're

01:10:59.820 --> 01:11:03.000
describing someone you remember you'll

01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:05.880
notice that you'll your your body

01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:08.239
language is also

01:11:08.239 --> 01:11:11.280
describing the feeling tone of the

01:11:11.280 --> 01:11:15.060
person and how you remember them and so

01:11:15.060 --> 01:11:17.880
when we're using our hands to talk it

01:11:17.880 --> 01:11:19.739
makes that obvious but when we're just

01:11:19.739 --> 01:11:21.780
sitting and remembering there's

01:11:21.780 --> 01:11:24.020
something like that mirroring

01:11:24.020 --> 01:11:26.219
sub-threshold action that's going on

01:11:26.219 --> 01:11:29.159
because it's part of the memory it's a

01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:31.080
part of how we assemble the memory of

01:11:31.080 --> 01:11:33.500
that person

01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:46.500
now it's also why certain techniques for

01:11:46.500 --> 01:11:50.000
ptsdl right go ahead

01:11:54.440 --> 01:11:57.739
you've muted

01:11:57.840 --> 01:11:59.460
thank you

01:11:59.460 --> 01:12:01.020
um I'm glad you mentioned the um

01:12:01.020 --> 01:12:04.219
physical aspect of memory

01:12:04.219 --> 01:12:07.199
I've worked with a guy same guy for

01:12:07.199 --> 01:12:08.699
almost 40 years

01:12:08.699 --> 01:12:10.920
so for 40 years we've had all the same

01:12:10.920 --> 01:12:14.640
students and his memory is is remarkable

01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:19.080
but he's also a really interesting mimic

01:12:19.080 --> 01:12:21.120
and so sometimes we'll be we'll try and

01:12:21.120 --> 01:12:23.699
I'll say do you remember and he'll know

01:12:23.699 --> 01:12:25.320
who I mean just because that's how we

01:12:25.320 --> 01:12:26.280
work

01:12:26.280 --> 01:12:28.500
and he'll grab it but what happens is

01:12:28.500 --> 01:12:31.320
that he'll go into the mimic oh God his

01:12:31.320 --> 01:12:34.320
body automatically goes into I'm talking

01:12:34.320 --> 01:12:37.080
about Gary and body automatically goes

01:12:37.080 --> 01:12:37.980
into

01:12:37.980 --> 01:12:40.340
and all of a sudden the name is there

01:12:40.340 --> 01:12:44.219
and it's so wild to watch him do that

01:12:44.219 --> 01:12:47.219
because I can't access the name but he

01:12:47.219 --> 01:12:50.219
he almost unconsciously he goes into

01:12:50.219 --> 01:12:52.980
this this this movement and his mimic

01:12:52.980 --> 01:12:55.199
and all of a sudden the student is there

01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:56.640
and then the name is there it's really

01:12:56.640 --> 01:12:58.800
amazing to watch

01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:00.540
and what I'm suggesting is that that's

01:13:00.540 --> 01:13:01.800
how

01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:03.780
that's how most of us but at an

01:13:03.780 --> 01:13:05.820
unconscious in a sub threshold level

01:13:05.820 --> 01:13:08.460
which is why

01:13:08.460 --> 01:13:10.860
um which is part of what assembles the

01:13:10.860 --> 01:13:14.400
memory it's it's a gesture it's a it's a

01:13:14.400 --> 01:13:16.320
posture it's a gesture and this comes

01:13:16.320 --> 01:13:18.600
straight out of like actor Theory like

01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:21.540
method acting and all this stuff

01:13:21.540 --> 01:13:23.760
um but it's also part of memory

01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:25.440
reconsolidation

01:13:25.440 --> 01:13:28.199
so for example you can use your body to

01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:31.260
take a posture that is a mismatch with a

01:13:31.260 --> 01:13:35.880
memory and by that dissolve the memory

01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:37.679
because that's one of the leverage

01:13:37.679 --> 01:13:41.159
points in it does that make sense so

01:13:41.159 --> 01:13:43.199
there are many different techniques that

01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:44.699
that that

01:13:44.699 --> 01:13:47.159
um are part of that

01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:48.000
um

01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:51.179
since the memory is assembled if you can

01:13:51.179 --> 01:13:54.300
kind of take one

01:13:54.300 --> 01:13:57.000
one of the tethers out then sometimes

01:13:57.000 --> 01:13:59.340
the whole thing the whole thing unravels

01:13:59.340 --> 01:14:02.040
so Bonnie I'm curious about that because

01:14:02.040 --> 01:14:04.860
this guy in the hardware store is a

01:14:04.860 --> 01:14:06.120
little bit shorter than me which is

01:14:06.120 --> 01:14:09.120
almost nobody and so that's an unusual

01:14:09.120 --> 01:14:13.199
experience for me to look cast my eyes

01:14:13.199 --> 01:14:15.000
slightly down when I look at somebody so

01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:17.640
that was my entry point into my memory

01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:20.940
yeah and I'm just curious if I try to

01:14:20.940 --> 01:14:24.120
look up would it be harder to conjure my

01:14:24.120 --> 01:14:26.699
memory of him

01:14:26.699 --> 01:14:29.960
yes well this is why kids can't remember

01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:32.640
uh when they remember their relatives

01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:35.340
they seem so short or like the memory

01:14:35.340 --> 01:14:37.679
and the experience doesn't work because

01:14:37.679 --> 01:14:41.300
of these these relationships between

01:14:41.300 --> 01:14:44.880
uh bodies in space and and stuff like

01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:48.120
that so so all of these things are part

01:14:48.120 --> 01:14:49.620
of it you know

01:14:49.620 --> 01:14:54.239
um part of the assemblage or assembling

01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:57.179
um that you know the point is like I

01:14:57.179 --> 01:14:59.159
think we're all getting the Insight is

01:14:59.159 --> 01:15:02.460
that we tend to have theories of memory

01:15:02.460 --> 01:15:05.820
that are very high conceptual and it and

01:15:05.820 --> 01:15:07.380
yet

01:15:07.380 --> 01:15:10.020
and the that and it discards all these

01:15:10.020 --> 01:15:12.600
little trivial things but memory is

01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:15.060
nothing but these little trivial things

01:15:15.060 --> 01:15:17.340
and then I can have a mechanistic theory

01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:20.159
of memory with all these Concepts and

01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:22.679
create a computer analogy of it and

01:15:22.679 --> 01:15:23.880
stuff

01:15:23.880 --> 01:15:26.880
and that's an analogy or a metaphor so

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:28.860
it would be as if the computer is doing

01:15:28.860 --> 01:15:31.860
this but but what is actually is is

01:15:31.860 --> 01:15:35.520
assemblage of these things that

01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:37.739
we think are trivial but they're the

01:15:37.739 --> 01:15:39.960
non-trivial components of memory

01:15:39.960 --> 01:15:40.860
actually

01:15:40.860 --> 01:15:43.980
you know so how could we can we work

01:15:43.980 --> 01:15:46.260
with this and um and this is then I'm

01:15:46.260 --> 01:15:47.940
gonna just end with the idea that

01:15:47.940 --> 01:15:49.560
something along the lines of Magdalena

01:15:49.560 --> 01:15:52.159
was saying

01:15:52.380 --> 01:15:56.820
so now we have whole generations of

01:15:56.820 --> 01:15:57.960
people

01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:02.460
who store memories on their iPhone and

01:16:02.460 --> 01:16:04.199
they build second brains to remember

01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:05.400
things

01:16:05.400 --> 01:16:07.500
this is going to be consequential

01:16:07.500 --> 01:16:09.600
because it's just like do this do this

01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:12.719
do this just semantic memory and they

01:16:12.719 --> 01:16:14.780
and then hyperlinks and everything is

01:16:14.780 --> 01:16:17.219
like conceptual

01:16:17.219 --> 01:16:20.820
so this is has profound repercussions on

01:16:20.820 --> 01:16:25.920
on how how uh children develop

01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:27.960
so

01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:30.739
uh

01:16:32.940 --> 01:16:34.320
yeah

01:16:34.320 --> 01:16:36.560
I just want to say that

01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:40.860
I cheated you know with

01:16:40.860 --> 01:16:42.500
um David

01:16:42.500 --> 01:16:46.260
and I actually assigned myself

01:16:46.260 --> 01:16:50.580
um something to do after this is over

01:16:50.580 --> 01:16:51.780
um

01:16:51.780 --> 01:16:55.699
um which was to remember him

01:16:57.000 --> 01:16:59.460
you know because I mean I don't know any

01:16:59.460 --> 01:17:01.320
of you yeah

01:17:01.320 --> 01:17:05.100
yeah and and this assemblage

01:17:05.100 --> 01:17:07.360
um has other affordances

01:17:07.360 --> 01:17:08.460
[Music]

01:17:08.460 --> 01:17:09.719
that

01:17:09.719 --> 01:17:13.560
um enter into this strange kind of

01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:18.540
intimacy as as we meet in the in the

01:17:18.540 --> 01:17:22.260
groups and we we start to notice

01:17:22.260 --> 01:17:26.219
something about each of you you know and

01:17:26.219 --> 01:17:29.640
I I I sense a kind of growing

01:17:29.640 --> 01:17:33.719
fondness you know for the fact that you

01:17:33.719 --> 01:17:37.500
know we're showing up for this inquiry

01:17:37.500 --> 01:17:40.159
and and what

01:17:40.159 --> 01:17:44.159
besides the hyperlinked and the you know

01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:47.699
labidinal hijacking what else is this

01:17:47.699 --> 01:17:50.580
giving us you know because I wouldn't

01:17:50.580 --> 01:17:52.679
probably be here

01:17:52.679 --> 01:17:55.980
my first encounter with you Bonita or

01:17:55.980 --> 01:17:57.840
was your writing and it was the wild

01:17:57.840 --> 01:18:01.500
cognition I mean right in smack and

01:18:01.500 --> 01:18:05.640
covet and you know I sent it to like 10

01:18:05.640 --> 01:18:07.860
people it's like you've got to read this

01:18:07.860 --> 01:18:10.199
you know

01:18:10.199 --> 01:18:11.460
so

01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:15.300
okay this is why I'm here you know and

01:18:15.300 --> 01:18:17.360
and there's there's such a

01:18:17.360 --> 01:18:19.940
extraordinary

01:18:19.940 --> 01:18:23.420
interiority to this work you know

01:18:23.420 --> 01:18:27.900
but it's kind of you know very strange

01:18:27.900 --> 01:18:30.000
at the same time so it's very strange

01:18:30.000 --> 01:18:31.260
it's

01:18:31.260 --> 01:18:32.880
you know

01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:35.340
it's like

01:18:35.340 --> 01:18:37.620
yeah it's it's strange it's different

01:18:37.620 --> 01:18:40.800
and part of the fun is because a lot of

01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:42.179
people have done so many cool

01:18:42.179 --> 01:18:44.580
Technologies part of the fun is kind of

01:18:44.580 --> 01:18:46.500
switching the frame of how we experience

01:18:46.500 --> 01:18:51.000
this so that we're we're it kind of uh

01:18:51.000 --> 01:18:52.920
creates a situation where it's easier to

01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:55.020
have beginner's mind because it's a

01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:57.179
strange kind of eclectic approach to

01:18:57.179 --> 01:18:58.440
things so

01:18:58.440 --> 01:19:01.620
um knowing today I arrived here in this

01:19:01.620 --> 01:19:04.260
Village somebody I've only talked to

01:19:04.260 --> 01:19:07.560
virtually he just arrived today with his

01:19:07.560 --> 01:19:09.620
family he was part of the warm data

01:19:09.620 --> 01:19:13.560
cohort and he's coming to help us with

01:19:13.560 --> 01:19:17.580
like web 3.0 development you know tools

01:19:17.580 --> 01:19:20.640
for our kind of self-organization it

01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:22.920
just arrived today I mean it was so

01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:25.320
freaky to actually give him a hug

01:19:25.320 --> 01:19:28.739
outside the screen you know so I just

01:19:28.739 --> 01:19:30.480
want to share that because we don't know

01:19:30.480 --> 01:19:33.960
where this is gonna take us you know are

01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:37.560
we the horse or the writer or both you

01:19:37.560 --> 01:19:41.040
know exactly with that thank you very

01:19:41.040 --> 01:19:43.500
much for showing up to the first first

01:19:43.500 --> 01:19:45.600
one and I think it went better than you

01:19:45.600 --> 01:19:48.179
know I said it's kind of a hard hard

01:19:48.179 --> 01:19:50.520
module but I think we have a really good

01:19:50.520 --> 01:19:53.400
start so thank you so much enjoy your

01:19:53.400 --> 01:19:55.199
day

01:19:55.199 --> 01:19:57.440
thank

## Cohort 2

00:00:03.179 --> 00:00:04.940
okay

00:00:04.940 --> 00:00:08.519
so uh get some more people floating in

00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:10.700
here

00:00:11.099 --> 00:00:13.219
um

00:00:13.620 --> 00:00:15.299
so

00:00:15.299 --> 00:00:18.000
um we have a choice

00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.279
the way we're doing this is we're

00:00:20.279 --> 00:00:22.980
starting with an exercise a memory

00:00:22.980 --> 00:00:24.520
exercise and

00:00:24.520 --> 00:00:25.980
[Music]

00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:26.820
um

00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:30.060
I'm wondering if that is Aaron

00:00:30.060 --> 00:00:34.140
since he's precariously perched no it's

00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:35.040
not

00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:37.079
hey

00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:37.980
um

00:00:37.980 --> 00:00:40.800
so we are going to start with an

00:00:40.800 --> 00:00:42.300
exercise

00:00:42.300 --> 00:00:46.219
of remembering something

00:00:46.800 --> 00:00:51.600
um but the point of the exercise is to

00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:54.120
to track

00:00:54.120 --> 00:00:56.760
and what I mean by that is I'm going to

00:00:56.760 --> 00:01:00.120
guide you into a memory exercise

00:01:00.120 --> 00:01:03.420
and you're going to have to also track

00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:07.799
how is it that you can remember this

00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.320
all right so

00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:12.720
um we did people did really well I think

00:01:12.720 --> 00:01:17.460
in the last one if maybe maybe uh

00:01:17.460 --> 00:01:19.500
some people who are here that didn't

00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:24.140
last can you think of a different way to

00:01:24.140 --> 00:01:26.220
describe the instructions that might

00:01:26.220 --> 00:01:28.020
have been helpful I think I think it was

00:01:28.020 --> 00:01:30.299
pretty good but you you just want to

00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:32.640
remember something and then you want to

00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:34.740
notice

00:01:34.740 --> 00:01:36.799
um

00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:42.060
how is the memory put together so so

00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:46.259
um do you have did you have to rely on

00:01:46.259 --> 00:01:48.000
like a little narrative well the day

00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.299
before yesterday but then before or I

00:01:51.299 --> 00:01:52.979
was in fifth grade and so it must have

00:01:52.979 --> 00:01:54.840
been sixth grade that's a kind of a

00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.180
narrative memory right it's got a story

00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:58.460
to it

00:01:58.460 --> 00:02:02.759
or did you have a very strong image

00:02:02.759 --> 00:02:05.579
right away come all at once and then you

00:02:05.579 --> 00:02:08.520
then if that's the case the question is

00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:11.760
like how is this image how is it

00:02:11.760 --> 00:02:13.620
possible that I have this image where

00:02:13.620 --> 00:02:17.640
does it come from where is where is it

00:02:17.640 --> 00:02:18.720
um

00:02:18.720 --> 00:02:21.780
if I'm really attending to it and trying

00:02:21.780 --> 00:02:24.900
to keep it very Salient what does it

00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:27.840
require of my body and my mind to do

00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:29.160
that

00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:32.099
okay another thing is a lot of times

00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:34.920
something will come with a feeling tone

00:02:34.920 --> 00:02:38.520
first so when I remember my dog Georgia

00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:40.800
Brown Sweet Georgia Brown she had that

00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:43.800
name for a reason the sweetness of her

00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:45.540
personality

00:02:45.540 --> 00:02:48.120
I feel that first and then the image

00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.019
comes but it's always the feeling first

00:02:52.019 --> 00:02:55.019
um and so this is what I mean we want to

00:02:55.019 --> 00:02:57.060
try to see

00:02:57.060 --> 00:03:01.560
um how the memory composes itself so

00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.379
some people for some people

00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:08.099
um the memory comes all at once and so

00:03:08.099 --> 00:03:09.980
you don't get a lot of information

00:03:09.980 --> 00:03:12.540
the question then would be how how do

00:03:12.540 --> 00:03:15.120
you hold on to that memory but I'm also

00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:16.920
going to ask you different types of

00:03:16.920 --> 00:03:18.420
different number of different types of

00:03:18.420 --> 00:03:21.000
situations because we're trying to find

00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.879
a situation where the memory really

00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.700
feels like it has to be assembled in in

00:03:26.700 --> 00:03:28.140
some way

00:03:28.140 --> 00:03:30.840
so if I ask you how much is one and one

00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.720
you say two it comes so fast it's very

00:03:33.720 --> 00:03:37.680
hard to it's very hard uh to figure out

00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:41.340
where that memory comes from I mean you

00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:43.980
potentially could figure it out but it's

00:03:43.980 --> 00:03:46.739
not a good place to start

00:03:46.739 --> 00:03:48.720
um but those of you who want to spend

00:03:48.720 --> 00:03:51.000
the next week trying to figure that out

00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:53.220
that's also a good one

00:03:53.220 --> 00:03:55.980
um but uh so that's what we're going to

00:03:55.980 --> 00:03:57.239
try to do

00:03:57.239 --> 00:03:59.519
um it's actually helpful if the memory

00:03:59.519 --> 00:04:01.260
comes

00:04:01.260 --> 00:04:05.340
in fragments or slowly or or it takes

00:04:05.340 --> 00:04:07.739
some effort to create the memory now

00:04:07.739 --> 00:04:12.180
having said that some people are uh I

00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:13.920
remember the word last time but I don't

00:04:13.920 --> 00:04:16.019
remember this time they have a very hard

00:04:16.019 --> 00:04:18.720
time remembering things or bringing up

00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:20.579
images

00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:21.540
um

00:04:21.540 --> 00:04:24.180
um you should not freak out this is

00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:27.360
something that's not as rare as people

00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:31.740
uh used to think it was a Fantasia and

00:04:31.740 --> 00:04:34.520
it doesn't mean you have repressed

00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:36.780
trauma and you can't remember and you

00:04:36.780 --> 00:04:39.479
notice other people I mean some people

00:04:39.479 --> 00:04:41.880
remember all their grade school teachers

00:04:41.880 --> 00:04:43.380
I don't I don't even remember one

00:04:43.380 --> 00:04:46.440
because she was my cousin

00:04:46.440 --> 00:04:51.360
um and uh yeah so this is not a

00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:53.639
cognitive test by any means it's not

00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:56.400
associated with any capacities

00:04:56.400 --> 00:04:59.699
um that are we normally uh think are

00:04:59.699 --> 00:05:02.100
valuable okay so don't freak out some

00:05:02.100 --> 00:05:05.280
people really just have blank slates

00:05:05.280 --> 00:05:07.560
um it can be uh

00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.139
um meditators long-term meditations tend

00:05:10.139 --> 00:05:13.620
to have uh blank slates uh much more

00:05:13.620 --> 00:05:14.960
fragmented

00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:18.300
normal people tend to have much more

00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:21.240
connected narrative so so

00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:21.900
um

00:05:21.900 --> 00:05:24.479
yeah so so just

00:05:24.479 --> 00:05:26.820
put just be mindful of that we never

00:05:26.820 --> 00:05:30.479
know uh what's gonna happen in people's

00:05:30.479 --> 00:05:31.520
cases

00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:34.380
now some of you have done the first

00:05:34.380 --> 00:05:36.900
exercise again

00:05:36.900 --> 00:05:38.639
um

00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:40.259
so

00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:42.780
um I think I will start with a new

00:05:42.780 --> 00:05:45.000
exercise

00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:45.780
um

00:05:45.780 --> 00:05:47.820
um usually I start with that first one

00:05:47.820 --> 00:05:51.660
and we'll see how how it plays out if

00:05:51.660 --> 00:05:54.300
it's not so convenient we might do the

00:05:54.300 --> 00:05:56.940
the first exercise afterwards to draw

00:05:56.940 --> 00:05:59.639
out some some pieces

00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:00.479
um

00:06:00.479 --> 00:06:02.280
that makes sense

00:06:02.280 --> 00:06:03.660
so

00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:04.919
um we're going to spend about five

00:06:04.919 --> 00:06:06.600
minutes practicing going through this

00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:08.460
memory and then I'm going to put you

00:06:08.460 --> 00:06:10.259
into breakout groups

00:06:10.259 --> 00:06:12.539
to discuss what you think is happening

00:06:12.539 --> 00:06:15.120
now just make sure we remember it'll be

00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:17.100
different remember it'll be different

00:06:17.100 --> 00:06:18.840
for different people whereas in other

00:06:18.840 --> 00:06:20.460
breakout groups you're kind of trying to

00:06:20.460 --> 00:06:22.919
get consensus on something

00:06:22.919 --> 00:06:25.919
um it's not you know so don't be uh

00:06:25.919 --> 00:06:28.259
surprised if you don't you know that

00:06:28.259 --> 00:06:29.460
it's just a bunch of different

00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:32.280
experiences for people uh this is

00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:34.319
already telling you a lot about memory

00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:35.880
right

00:06:35.880 --> 00:06:38.759
um that we can't presuppose all kinds of

00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:41.940
things uh about uh when people do or

00:06:41.940 --> 00:06:44.220
don't remember things

00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:45.720
um so you're just going to share your

00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:47.819
experience and

00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:50.280
um help the other person you know ask

00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:52.080
questions so you can understand maybe

00:06:52.080 --> 00:06:53.940
especially if there's something quite

00:06:53.940 --> 00:06:55.199
different happening in the other

00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.479
person's experience

00:06:57.479 --> 00:07:00.960
um and so this will give us more ideas

00:07:00.960 --> 00:07:04.620
about memory

00:07:06.419 --> 00:07:08.479
um

00:07:08.699 --> 00:07:12.120
okay uh is that any are there any

00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:13.979
questions about the general

00:07:13.979 --> 00:07:17.720
the bit General instructions

00:07:23.280 --> 00:07:27.259
what was the first word I said

00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:32.220
okay I want you to think of someone

00:07:32.220 --> 00:07:34.440
who doesn't live in your house or your

00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:36.740
building

00:07:38.340 --> 00:07:43.460
that you've recently met in real life

00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:49.319
and that you had a real life

00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:52.639
conversation with

00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:03.539
if it's somebody that like it just

00:08:03.539 --> 00:08:05.220
happened this morning you wanted might

00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:07.680
want to go to the previous one with

00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.380
someone that you had okay because if

00:08:10.380 --> 00:08:12.660
it's so Salient that it's it's not

00:08:12.660 --> 00:08:14.580
helpful but you could also stay with

00:08:14.580 --> 00:08:16.819
that

00:08:18.780 --> 00:08:22.500
and you want to you know what's where

00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:24.120
are you

00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.199
what's around

00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:32.459
and what were you talking about but not

00:08:32.459 --> 00:08:35.580
what we were talking about what were

00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:36.959
they saying

00:08:36.959 --> 00:08:40.320
and what were you saying

00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.320
specifically

00:08:45.060 --> 00:08:47.760
can you have them open their mouth and

00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:49.380
say something

00:08:49.380 --> 00:08:52.700
that they were saying

00:08:54.839 --> 00:08:58.140
now with that instruction you might want

00:08:58.140 --> 00:09:02.040
to switch who you're trying to think of

00:09:02.040 --> 00:09:04.200
because maybe you want a little bit more

00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.920
substantial conversation

00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:15.000
but it's someone you know

00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:18.680
who doesn't live in your house

00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:23.399
um it could be if that's if if that's

00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:25.380
it could be that would be more place

00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:27.540
based if you want to do nature but we're

00:09:27.540 --> 00:09:29.580
trying to figure out what someone said

00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:31.320
to us we're trying to figure out if we

00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.380
remember what people say

00:09:34.380 --> 00:09:36.839
um but you could do both and maybe tell

00:09:36.839 --> 00:09:38.519
us what's the difference which is

00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:39.660
interesting

00:09:39.660 --> 00:09:42.000
difference between

00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.360
yeah a silent partner

00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:46.560
quote

00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:48.779
silent

00:09:48.779 --> 00:09:50.839
um

00:09:56.459 --> 00:09:58.680
what's churning as you try to remember

00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:01.279
this

00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:08.000
what was the weather like that day

00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:19.640
can you remember what you were wearing

00:11:24.660 --> 00:11:27.420
so it's not important to remember these

00:11:27.420 --> 00:11:31.320
things but to watch your body mind churn

00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.720
what is it churning to try to remember

00:12:15.079 --> 00:12:19.680
okay we're gonna go for 20 minutes and I

00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:22.620
will see you just

00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:23.880
um and and

00:12:23.880 --> 00:12:24.600
um

00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.180
if you need to practice it while you're

00:12:27.180 --> 00:12:29.880
talking back and forth and go back in to

00:12:29.880 --> 00:12:32.040
the experience

00:12:32.040 --> 00:12:34.160
um

00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:40.820
go back into the experience and uh

00:12:42.839 --> 00:12:44.940
to um

00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:47.100
get more information from the experience

00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:49.560
okay 20 minutes and we'll come back and

00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:51.779
we'll do a share and then another

00:12:51.779 --> 00:12:54.200
exercise

00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:12.019
okay what are we noticing today

00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:40.079
was anyone surprised by the exercise

00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:43.260
I think Torsten and I did some

00:13:43.260 --> 00:13:45.899
interesting things I'd love him to talk

00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:49.019
about it he's pretty articulate

00:13:49.019 --> 00:13:52.440
um but uh one thing I'm butting in here

00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.700
now is I need to leave on the hour so

00:13:56.700 --> 00:13:59.279
um but it was it was really good the

00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.160
context that we were in and

00:14:02.160 --> 00:14:03.899
uh now and I'm having trouble

00:14:03.899 --> 00:14:07.380
remembering because uh uh it's hard for

00:14:07.380 --> 00:14:08.880
me to speak in the whole group but I

00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:10.620
have to admit that I get tongue-tied and

00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:12.600
I'm left and right and up and down

00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:17.459
uh but in the context and uh we realized

00:14:17.459 --> 00:14:20.700
that when we had interactions with the

00:14:20.700 --> 00:14:23.339
people like torson put his arm around uh

00:14:23.339 --> 00:14:26.339
and then that stimulated a person and

00:14:26.339 --> 00:14:28.560
that stimulated some memories

00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:31.260
and then while he was talking I was

00:14:31.260 --> 00:14:33.420
trying to find what outside memories

00:14:33.420 --> 00:14:36.180
that were coming in uh rather than the

00:14:36.180 --> 00:14:37.800
relationship that I was having with that

00:14:37.800 --> 00:14:39.779
person and all of a sudden his top

00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:42.540
stimulated a memory train that I was

00:14:42.540 --> 00:14:44.220
able to follow

00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:46.320
but uh

00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.480
I'm just finding it really fascinating

00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.560
so uh I not in good detail about

00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:54.480
explaining it all but I just wanted to

00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:56.399
speak up and say I'm loving this and

00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.920
it's going to help me and sorry I have

00:14:58.920 --> 00:15:01.880
to leave on the hour

00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:04.139
foreign

00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:06.600
pick up the prompt

00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:08.040
um

00:15:08.040 --> 00:15:10.019
a variety of things we hadn't discussion

00:15:10.019 --> 00:15:12.300
the one thing is I could really relate

00:15:12.300 --> 00:15:14.279
to the the churning you mentioned

00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.139
because for me going to the memory was

00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:16.980
like

00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:19.320
going back with the mind but going into

00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:21.300
the body and it felt like and the

00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:24.180
churning was really something that was a

00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:26.639
sensation it felt like a journey through

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.260
the body and then stuff pops up and it's

00:15:28.260 --> 00:15:30.000
like when you're cooking gnocchi some of

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.040
them pop up quicker than the others and

00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:33.720
some of them just were there they were

00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:35.459
floating at the top and you could you

00:15:35.459 --> 00:15:37.860
could fish them out that was really that

00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:40.740
was really very interesting and like

00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:44.339
going back but going in and the other

00:15:44.339 --> 00:15:46.740
stuff which was Salient that what John

00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:49.199
said it's like all the moments which

00:15:49.199 --> 00:15:51.300
included some physical sensation were

00:15:51.300 --> 00:15:53.880
much for Salient than those without that

00:15:53.880 --> 00:15:56.339
like if I remember a couple of sentences

00:15:56.339 --> 00:15:58.019
where I had like I remember putting my

00:15:58.019 --> 00:16:00.180
my hand on the arm of the the colleague

00:16:00.180 --> 00:16:02.279
I was talking with and the other stuff

00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.220
which I noticed was that notion of of

00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:07.920
memory being bringing things from the

00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:11.220
past to the present which uh sort of

00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:13.079
um necessary for the present or make

00:16:13.079 --> 00:16:15.959
sense in the present and the the context

00:16:15.959 --> 00:16:18.300
I had was well like having a

00:16:18.300 --> 00:16:19.860
conversation with work colleagues of a

00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:21.420
difficult situation

00:16:21.420 --> 00:16:24.120
but I remembered more and at some point

00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:25.740
that the the whole conversation shifted

00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:28.199
to some some private topics and I

00:16:28.199 --> 00:16:30.360
remembered more of that like for example

00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.339
my colleague showing me a picture of her

00:16:32.339 --> 00:16:34.560
son going to the prom on the weekend

00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:36.420
and my explanation to John when we

00:16:36.420 --> 00:16:38.639
talked was like because the the

00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:40.980
situation was like Wednesday morning for

00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:43.560
me that like 36 hours ago because much

00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:46.500
of the work topic has already shifted so

00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.139
much since that much of the stuff we

00:16:49.139 --> 00:16:50.820
talked about isn't relevant anymore in

00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:52.800
the present but that private topic of

00:16:52.800 --> 00:16:54.720
her excitement of the Sun going to the

00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.779
prom it still has the same value it has

00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:00.360
had by 36 hours ago so that makes sense

00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:02.040
for me like trying to put some of the

00:17:02.040 --> 00:17:04.020
context you had in the paper into to the

00:17:04.020 --> 00:17:05.579
practice now

00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:08.880
yeah this last one you said is perfect I

00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.459
actually uh forgot to put that in and

00:17:11.459 --> 00:17:15.419
that is there's there's when we sleep at

00:17:15.419 --> 00:17:16.620
night

00:17:16.620 --> 00:17:18.600
um there's a process it's pretty well

00:17:18.600 --> 00:17:20.819
described in terms of brain science I

00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:24.299
can't remember what it is but uh the

00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:26.339
memories that are not useful in your

00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:29.940
brain anymore they get they get they get

00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:33.240
the Salient memories get encoded in to

00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.660
into glial cells and non-uh

00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:38.700
electrochemical neurons

00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:41.340
and so they feel more like body

00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:45.240
processes and the things that you just

00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:47.220
like you just said that get up they're

00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:49.919
already outdated and useless those

00:17:49.919 --> 00:17:52.380
connections get uh actually uh

00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:55.100
metabolized by little

00:17:55.100 --> 00:17:58.740
uh chemicals that metabolize the

00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:00.720
synapses and stuff like that and so

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.400
there's this

00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.260
um so what you said was a beautiful

00:18:04.260 --> 00:18:06.900
micro phenomenology of what we know is

00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:09.360
actual brain processing

00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:12.840
um and uh yeah so

00:18:12.840 --> 00:18:14.700
um

00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:17.520
that's that's excellent report thank you

00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:20.240
so much

00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:54.240
this is a really different experience

00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.360
Bonnie from last time

00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:00.020
um just to even

00:19:00.020 --> 00:19:04.320
selecting a memory with a person rather

00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:07.380
than being situated in

00:19:07.380 --> 00:19:11.059
in a location

00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:14.160
seemed like I had to

00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.559
do a lot of toggling

00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:18.260
about

00:19:18.260 --> 00:19:21.299
do I actually remember what they said

00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:25.380
like if it was if it was actual dialogue

00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:28.039
or my sort of

00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:31.919
compression and um

00:19:31.919 --> 00:19:35.580
uh like reconstituting of what was said

00:19:35.580 --> 00:19:37.860
and so it

00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:40.740
that felt like very disorganized in my

00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:41.940
body

00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:42.900
um

00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:44.280
and

00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:46.380
having to

00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:48.059
or

00:19:48.059 --> 00:19:52.340
sort of noticing all the

00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.520
the tangential

00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:59.160
formation the tone of voice the

00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.640
the way that we have where we happen to

00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.400
be we were walking in BlackRock Forest

00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.580
what what else was going on so it was

00:20:08.580 --> 00:20:09.299
just

00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:11.880
was very very different

00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.820
um yeah

00:20:14.820 --> 00:20:17.460
different different Body Sensations

00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:19.860
entirely and how

00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:22.980
that assemblage

00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:25.260
felt

00:20:25.260 --> 00:20:28.679
kind of rickety sort of like you know

00:20:28.679 --> 00:20:31.400
messy

00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:34.919
yeah so I

00:20:34.919 --> 00:20:37.620
there's a couple of great insights here

00:20:37.620 --> 00:20:39.840
I mean part of what I hope like alcohol

00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:43.020
meta is that just to congratulate

00:20:43.020 --> 00:20:45.480
yourselves because if you do micro

00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.900
phenomenology well you actually learn a

00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:51.179
lot you can learn a lot about how things

00:20:51.179 --> 00:20:54.240
are and you can actually be confident to

00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.820
read some neuroscience and say that's

00:20:56.820 --> 00:20:59.700
you know that's probably not

00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:03.179
not relevant I mean these are pop you

00:21:03.179 --> 00:21:05.940
can you can learn a lot through micro

00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:09.780
phenomenology uh or or contemplating

00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:12.240
experience and

00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.280
um so this is of course what we've been

00:21:14.280 --> 00:21:15.600
doing

00:21:15.600 --> 00:21:17.580
um but

00:21:17.580 --> 00:21:20.820
there's a very strong so the last week

00:21:20.820 --> 00:21:24.600
or last session we uh

00:21:24.600 --> 00:21:27.600
um The Prompt was to remember put

00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:29.580
yourself in your childhood kitchen and

00:21:29.580 --> 00:21:31.260
look at the sink so it was very

00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:34.260
architectural and place based

00:21:34.260 --> 00:21:38.340
well it turns out that the way our

00:21:38.340 --> 00:21:42.740
memory works is it exacts

00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:44.340
um

00:21:44.340 --> 00:21:47.520
so so when we were talking last time

00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:51.179
with Sandra she could extremely quite

00:21:51.179 --> 00:21:52.500
vividly

00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.919
see in her Mind's Eye the kitchen and

00:21:55.919 --> 00:21:58.200
what she realized is that there's a lot

00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.360
of heat and activity at the back of the

00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:02.400
head because that's where the visual

00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.440
cortex is

00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:07.559
and so the visual cortex has been

00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:08.940
exacted

00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:11.280
from seeing things in the internal

00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:13.799
environment to simulating the in the

00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:15.659
external environment seeing things in

00:22:15.659 --> 00:22:17.039
the external environment it's been

00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.100
adapted to simulating things in the

00:22:20.100 --> 00:22:23.159
external environment by running the same

00:22:23.159 --> 00:22:26.039
processes right so

00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:29.039
it turns out that memory this kind of

00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.559
memory we don't know a lot about people

00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.539
have photographic memory and all these

00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.640
weird memories so hopefully you won't

00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.280
ask me those questions uh because memory

00:22:38.280 --> 00:22:40.740
remember I said the beginning of the pet

00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:43.559
memory is is actually not well

00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.020
understood because of these weird things

00:22:46.020 --> 00:22:48.539
that people remember

00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:52.440
um so we don't really know about the

00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.919
that it's been studied forever

00:22:55.919 --> 00:22:57.900
um but

00:22:57.900 --> 00:22:58.799
um

00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.120
um

00:23:00.120 --> 00:23:03.900
but it turns out that what's being

00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:06.299
adapted are pla they're called Place

00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:09.179
cells there's certain cells in the brain

00:23:09.179 --> 00:23:11.039
they always say brain but obviously it's

00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.179
it's not exclusively the brain that map

00:23:15.179 --> 00:23:18.539
your location in time through time

00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:22.020
and and it's been very well researched

00:23:22.020 --> 00:23:25.740
in rats and the reason why it can map

00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:28.140
movement in time is because your HIPAA

00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:33.120
campus has oscillates a rhythm and so

00:23:33.120 --> 00:23:35.039
the place sells

00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.260
Spike at certain

00:23:37.260 --> 00:23:39.960
parts of the the three different rhythms

00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.960
and create a threaded memory

00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:46.380
so all memory of this kind is based on

00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:48.240
location

00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.659
we remember we actually you know there's

00:23:51.659 --> 00:23:54.120
so many mnemonic devices like put that

00:23:54.120 --> 00:23:56.159
memory in this room and put that memory

00:23:56.159 --> 00:23:59.880
in that room and there's a lot of a lot

00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.640
of literature and facilitation in

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:04.740
Psychotherapy to move between different

00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:09.679
physical rooms in location is extremely

00:24:09.679 --> 00:24:13.380
uh is it one of these tags very

00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:15.900
important tags in memory

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:19.500
and so the last week The Prompt was the

00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.580
location and you may have found like you

00:24:23.580 --> 00:24:25.400
were saying if you think of the person

00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:29.400
you end up going to thinking of

00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:31.860
locations and then finding a person that

00:24:31.860 --> 00:24:34.380
you talk to there

00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:36.179
um so

00:24:36.179 --> 00:24:38.820
um so that's something that is is

00:24:38.820 --> 00:24:41.640
actually relevant to that

00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:43.919
um to that it

00:24:43.919 --> 00:24:45.659
um

00:24:45.659 --> 00:24:49.500
um it's also you in this reflection you

00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:51.720
realize why

00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.080
um the laws around

00:24:55.080 --> 00:24:57.299
um uh

00:24:57.299 --> 00:25:00.720
um like when you're on a you're under

00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.140
oath in a trial What I Hear say is

00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.840
completely not allowed and they just

00:25:06.840 --> 00:25:09.480
want you to talk about physical things

00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:11.400
right and it seems ridiculous I mean

00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:13.919
they're so like

00:25:13.919 --> 00:25:15.780
you know what I'm saying you watch these

00:25:15.780 --> 00:25:17.760
trials and they're so they won't let you

00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:19.679
know talk normally about what happened

00:25:19.679 --> 00:25:22.380
and this is because of the psychology of

00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:25.559
what we actually can remember well in

00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.520
what we recreate it also

00:25:29.520 --> 00:25:33.539
shows you that and this didn't come up

00:25:33.539 --> 00:25:35.460
but but

00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:38.100
if you're on a witness stand and under

00:25:38.100 --> 00:25:40.679
duress and you are

00:25:40.679 --> 00:25:43.799
your I mean you can't it's not allowed

00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:47.940
to say what somebody else said but if

00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:49.799
you're under duress and you're searching

00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:52.440
for a memory and someone asks you asking

00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.460
you what did you say like little kids

00:25:55.460 --> 00:25:59.340
always they can Intuit what the person

00:25:59.340 --> 00:26:02.720
wants to hear and they'll say it because

00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:04.700
this this

00:26:04.700 --> 00:26:08.340
lack of real information in the cement

00:26:08.340 --> 00:26:10.200
in the dialogic okay now this

00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:12.080
problematizes people who think

00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:15.240
philosophy is done in dialogics

00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.480
the dialogue go self there's so it's

00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.039
it's it's this is this is a weird

00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.480
thing to say the dialogue

00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:30.480
is I love your thing about nochi like

00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:32.220
the dialogue

00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:34.200
is is

00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.960
this you know the dialogue looks like

00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.360
it's the activity that's going on but

00:26:39.360 --> 00:26:43.260
it's in many cases besides the point

00:26:43.260 --> 00:26:46.559
it's the atmosphere a lot of times if

00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:48.779
you think of remembering what people are

00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:51.600
saying you only hear the tone

00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:54.600
you you very well aware of what the tone

00:26:54.600 --> 00:26:56.220
must have done

00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:59.039
screechy Voice or soft they could hardly

00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.799
hear this stuff and we don't really

00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.740
remember and we don't really pay

00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:06.120
attention

00:27:06.120 --> 00:27:09.179
to what people say this is why education

00:27:09.179 --> 00:27:11.039
you know I say well if you understand

00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:12.900
doesn't matter if you remember what I'm

00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:14.400
saying it doesn't these things don't

00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:15.480
matter

00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:19.500
because the what's the underlying

00:27:19.500 --> 00:27:21.539
there's something there's something else

00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:24.779
going on you're learning anyways and so

00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:25.620
um

00:27:25.620 --> 00:27:26.640
um

00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.880
yeah so there's there's all these little

00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:32.159
things you're you're noticing I'm just

00:27:32.159 --> 00:27:34.860
trying to draw them out into some other

00:27:34.860 --> 00:27:39.000
some other ways you can you can inquire

00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:39.600
um

00:27:39.600 --> 00:27:42.720
now having said that uh Taurus and also

00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:44.400
said but there's something he really

00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.440
remembered and sometimes you can

00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:50.520
remember exactly what someone said

00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:52.980
um and this is a different kind of an

00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:55.380
experience right

00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:57.419
um so I don't know if someone had that

00:27:57.419 --> 00:27:59.159
experience but let's just continue to

00:27:59.159 --> 00:28:01.980
share I'm just highlighting that

00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:03.960
um and trying to

00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.900
to reflect back how the how

00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:10.260
you're all doing really good work and

00:28:10.260 --> 00:28:13.200
um we don't have to be so mysterious to

00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.000
us and why do people you read these

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.260
books and

00:28:16.260 --> 00:28:19.020
you can hardly understand what they're

00:28:19.020 --> 00:28:21.000
talking about and

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:22.200
yeah

00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:25.020
okay any other Santa did you have a

00:28:25.020 --> 00:28:28.320
thought yeah go ahead Jessica

00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:30.419
well Sandra was my partner do you have a

00:28:30.419 --> 00:28:32.640
follow-up

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.340
no I was going to point to you for the

00:28:35.340 --> 00:28:38.159
specific yeah because I I remember

00:28:38.159 --> 00:28:41.580
exactly what was said and I noticed as I

00:28:41.580 --> 00:28:43.500
was calling it up that it was like an

00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:45.480
audio track just playing tone of voice

00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.140
everything exactly but that there was an

00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:53.400
edge to it and so I didn't know like who

00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:55.320
said anything next or if there was

00:28:55.320 --> 00:28:57.840
laughter and so when you felt like with

00:28:57.840 --> 00:29:00.000
torsten's like like talking about how

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.340
that whatever that was was metabolized

00:29:02.340 --> 00:29:03.840
maybe that night when I was sleeping was

00:29:03.840 --> 00:29:06.360
really fascinating

00:29:06.360 --> 00:29:07.500
um

00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:09.179
and

00:29:09.179 --> 00:29:11.580
and so so that's my share but I have a

00:29:11.580 --> 00:29:12.539
question

00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:13.919
um

00:29:13.919 --> 00:29:15.659
that's really been eating me up about

00:29:15.659 --> 00:29:20.100
about why like numinous encounters seem

00:29:20.100 --> 00:29:23.100
so prone to Amnesia like it's like so

00:29:23.100 --> 00:29:26.159
hard to remember like something and but

00:29:26.159 --> 00:29:28.620
I wondered when you were saying about

00:29:28.620 --> 00:29:31.919
like Place memory being stronger and

00:29:31.919 --> 00:29:33.779
being able to thread things together if

00:29:33.779 --> 00:29:36.120
if that might be because it's numinous

00:29:36.120 --> 00:29:39.240
things seem kind of Untied to any of our

00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:41.039
normal everyday experience if it's just

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.659
harder to code that into memory

00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:49.140
wow that's a really good question uh

00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:53.130
wish I had done some thinking about that

00:29:53.130 --> 00:29:53.460
[Music]

00:29:53.460 --> 00:29:55.460
um

00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:05.880
I'll have to

00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:09.600
let me do my own uh little

00:30:09.600 --> 00:30:12.899
phenomenology on that I mean I I feel

00:30:12.899 --> 00:30:15.000
myself jumping to conclusions and

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.000
they're not really because I never asked

00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.740
that question

00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:22.919
um and I will talk about it in the next

00:30:22.919 --> 00:30:25.440
class and it'll be recorded but also

00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.140
also write it in the comments if I come

00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:30.620
up with something

00:30:30.620 --> 00:30:36.120
yeah no it's a very good question uh

00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.840
like it wouldn't be that

00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:42.299
curious if we just said well we don't

00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:45.779
have words for it but the actually

00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:48.679
the the retrieval is hard the the

00:30:48.679 --> 00:30:51.360
retrieval is hard and I was going to say

00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:53.159
well sometimes the location but

00:30:53.159 --> 00:30:55.140
sometimes you go back to location you

00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:56.399
think that's going to help and it

00:30:56.399 --> 00:30:58.860
doesn't it just so that's what I'm

00:30:58.860 --> 00:31:02.039
saying there's a bunch of quick answers

00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:03.899
that are not

00:31:03.899 --> 00:31:07.260
well and I doubt if I could

00:31:07.260 --> 00:31:09.659
I'll even do a Google search sometimes

00:31:09.659 --> 00:31:12.600
you can find some odd papers a lot of a

00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:14.880
lot of neuroscientists like to study

00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:16.980
spiritual phenomenon so

00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:20.580
it's a very good question

00:31:20.580 --> 00:31:23.279
I think it's the first one in a year and

00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.179
a half done

00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:29.640
to give her a little star in our world I

00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:31.860
don't it's a great question

00:31:31.860 --> 00:31:34.080
it's a great question thank you so much

00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:35.750
for it

00:31:35.750 --> 00:31:38.960
[Music]

00:31:46.860 --> 00:31:49.740
and it's also why people it's easy for

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:51.600
people to be convinced they didn't have

00:31:51.600 --> 00:31:52.620
it

00:31:52.620 --> 00:31:55.559
or it wasn't like that you know yeah

00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.080
this this quality is very interesting

00:31:58.080 --> 00:32:00.539
question I'll try to stay present for

00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:03.260
the rest of life

00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:11.899
right

00:32:15.659 --> 00:32:17.220
um I'm not sure how this question is

00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:19.820
going to come out

00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:24.539
um but in our last session with um Susan

00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:26.640
and Holly

00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.740
um right before we ended I started to

00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:31.640
get this sense

00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:33.480
um

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:35.520
is a little bit confusing was it was

00:32:35.520 --> 00:32:36.659
exciting but it was also a little

00:32:36.659 --> 00:32:41.700
confusing and and I'm curious about how

00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:46.260
so how I how I know how I know how I

00:32:46.260 --> 00:32:48.899
understand or experience the present

00:32:48.899 --> 00:32:51.899
moment is through what what

00:32:51.899 --> 00:32:55.760
I can only describe as a series of of

00:32:55.760 --> 00:32:58.440
things whatever that come that mesh

00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.960
together they give me a sense of

00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:03.480
that I'm here that I'm speaking and that

00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:05.820
I understand the context with in which

00:33:05.820 --> 00:33:07.980
I'm speaking and I traveled that around

00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:10.380
for a little while and then it became

00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:12.960
and then the question arose well wait a

00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:14.460
minute it

00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:18.360
it is is all of this a series of of of

00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:21.960
layers of roots or mesh that come

00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:23.940
together to create

00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:26.640
what I experience as now in this moment

00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.240
relating to you in this way and it is

00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.519
that memory

00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:35.220
and and if so how does that

00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:38.580
how does that actually

00:33:38.580 --> 00:33:41.100
function as memory if I can even call it

00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:43.340
that

00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:48.720
okay so this is a very deep question and

00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:49.919
oh

00:33:49.919 --> 00:33:51.480
and

00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:55.820
I will try to repeat it for Liz

00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.440
hello

00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:04.140
okay so a very interesting question just

00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:07.080
dropped and that is what I'm going to

00:34:07.080 --> 00:34:11.040
simplify it uh Ray and and then if you

00:34:11.040 --> 00:34:13.619
want to follow up with a little more of

00:34:13.619 --> 00:34:16.379
the complexity

00:34:16.379 --> 00:34:19.560
um the question is

00:34:19.560 --> 00:34:23.700
how much of a role is memory playing in

00:34:23.700 --> 00:34:26.040
my present experience

00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:29.399
is that memory or is everything present

00:34:29.399 --> 00:34:32.460
it's kind of the flip side of how we

00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:35.060
look at memory as having to

00:34:35.060 --> 00:34:38.639
to be in service to the present

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:40.560
experience but how much of the present

00:34:40.560 --> 00:34:43.320
experiences actually

00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:47.040
um embedded in memory so when we use

00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:49.859
that kind of memory which is like a

00:34:49.859 --> 00:34:54.720
deeper organism metabolic uh unconscious

00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:57.900
we call them priors okay so that's in

00:34:57.900 --> 00:34:59.700
that's in the literature in the

00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:01.440
predictive processing literature as

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.760
priors

00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:04.740
because we don't they're not really

00:35:04.740 --> 00:35:07.260
things we're remembering in this

00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:09.480
ordinary way we're doing this exercise

00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:12.480
right they're they're the question is is

00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.240
it is there something like memory that

00:35:15.240 --> 00:35:19.380
is pro that that is a prior that is

00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:23.579
being served up to constitute my present

00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:25.800
experience and of course it's yes

00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.200
because you don't come as a blank slate

00:35:28.200 --> 00:35:30.560
you don't have to learn language over

00:35:30.560 --> 00:35:33.540
and you don't have to learn our names

00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:38.240
over and all of this is the background

00:35:38.240 --> 00:35:41.579
that is running and able for you to have

00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:43.619
a present experience

00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.380
what so

00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:48.960
um so now in some cases

00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:52.020
it may be actually memories and stories

00:35:52.020 --> 00:35:54.540
that are so present to your experience

00:35:54.540 --> 00:35:56.280
that you're not you're actually not

00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.079
having a present experience this is not

00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.380
your question but like if

00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:03.440
if I'm

00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.900
terrified of

00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:09.240
my teacher and I come to a class like

00:36:09.240 --> 00:36:11.400
this all the only experience I'm having

00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:13.619
is like of Terror right so we're not

00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:16.099
talking about that level of memory

00:36:16.099 --> 00:36:18.900
polluting the experience that we're

00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:21.780
talking about priors

00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:23.280
um so

00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:24.540
um

00:36:24.540 --> 00:36:30.780
this is a fascinating question and it

00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:33.240
turns out that

00:36:33.240 --> 00:36:35.300
um

00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:38.900
just by

00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.660
just by simple logic we have to believe

00:36:42.660 --> 00:36:45.119
there's more priors in the experience

00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.240
than what's presently happening right so

00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:50.460
when you're a child there's more there's

00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:51.839
less priors

00:36:51.839 --> 00:36:55.560
and more like just surprise you know

00:36:55.560 --> 00:36:58.560
minute there's some evidence to suggest

00:36:58.560 --> 00:37:01.560
that their events meditators when they

00:37:01.560 --> 00:37:04.560
go into a certain State they experience

00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:07.680
the world without with very few priors

00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:09.960
now you wouldn't want to be in that

00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.900
state all the time because you wouldn't

00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:15.480
there wouldn't be a seamless flow from

00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.000
one moment to the other without some

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.599
overlap from the prior to the present

00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.280
so

00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:26.660
um uh

00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:30.540
so there's something I think that

00:37:30.540 --> 00:37:33.320
is

00:37:33.540 --> 00:37:34.560
um

00:37:34.560 --> 00:37:38.460
to learn how to learn that it's like

00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:41.820
it's a rolling flux really like because

00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:43.920
the priors aren't the same priors

00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:46.980
because the present is changing what the

00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:48.960
priors are in the next moment right

00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.079
there's always this updating process and

00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.420
so it's more like this notion that is

00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:57.300
used that every moment is a duration it

00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:59.700
has part of the past part of the present

00:37:59.700 --> 00:38:02.339
and part of the future

00:38:02.339 --> 00:38:04.500
uh and what do I mean by part of the

00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:09.420
future is uh we anticipate

00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:10.440
um

00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:13.920
so so it's it's it's it's it's like when

00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:15.300
somebody's

00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:17.579
saying a sentence and they they stutter

00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:19.140
or they can't come up with the word you

00:38:19.140 --> 00:38:21.180
you supply the words it's because you've

00:38:21.180 --> 00:38:22.980
anticipated it right

00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:27.660
so so the president is really this this

00:38:27.660 --> 00:38:31.619
extension through all these mechanisms

00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:35.339
and what we have are systems in our body

00:38:35.339 --> 00:38:38.720
that are following

00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:43.200
diacronic or not the same tempo

00:38:43.200 --> 00:38:45.780
so the things that are that are present

00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:48.540
get encoded in other systems that are

00:38:48.540 --> 00:38:51.060
running behind that are running priors

00:38:51.060 --> 00:38:54.240
for the next moment that are running

00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:57.540
uh present moments for the predictive

00:38:57.540 --> 00:38:59.839
future

00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:04.320
and because it's all a flux you don't

00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.140
have to worry that I'm stuck in the past

00:39:07.140 --> 00:39:11.760
or like I've accumulated years of

00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.859
you know I mean this happens a little

00:39:13.859 --> 00:39:16.680
when you're older there's something in

00:39:16.680 --> 00:39:19.079
your awareness that knows there's less

00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:21.780
time in front and more time behind and

00:39:21.780 --> 00:39:23.700
so you kind of get more stuck in the

00:39:23.700 --> 00:39:25.260
past

00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:26.640
um but

00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:30.260
all of these things

00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.200
the the present moment includes three

00:39:34.200 --> 00:39:36.720
temporal things and there's different

00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:39.359
subsystems that are serving

00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:42.060
up one to the next to the next and then

00:39:42.060 --> 00:39:43.859
another one's coming in and there's

00:39:43.859 --> 00:39:46.740
overlap so that

00:39:46.740 --> 00:39:47.520
um

00:39:47.520 --> 00:39:49.980
so again it's like a rolling assembly

00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:52.220
the the present is a rolling assembly

00:39:52.220 --> 00:39:56.700
very much like uh the the present

00:39:56.700 --> 00:39:59.940
infects the memory of the past right so

00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:02.400
it makes it it makes it no longer

00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:05.579
exactly what the memory was and the

00:40:05.579 --> 00:40:09.180
memory grounds the present in it's it's

00:40:09.180 --> 00:40:12.119
the genealogy of the present is in in

00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:14.880
the in the past so

00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.460
um so if you read my My article

00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:20.160
cognition in the wild

00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:23.400
it's exactly what I said like when

00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:25.079
you're riding a horse

00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:27.599
there's and you're just in sync there's

00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.060
something about your body from here down

00:40:30.060 --> 00:40:32.160
it's one with the horse and you feel

00:40:32.160 --> 00:40:33.900
like the horse is taking care of the

00:40:33.900 --> 00:40:37.560
present and perceptions up there in the

00:40:37.560 --> 00:40:38.640
future

00:40:38.640 --> 00:40:42.960
and you can feel the undulation

00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:46.680
and um so we have

00:40:46.680 --> 00:40:50.900
kind of evidence that this rolling

00:40:50.900 --> 00:40:53.040
process of

00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:56.700
prior is present and future has to do

00:40:56.700 --> 00:41:00.780
with the physical that comes from when

00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:03.720
you're young and you walk your body

00:41:03.720 --> 00:41:06.420
knows that one limb is behind the other

00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:09.240
and your head is the head this is this

00:41:09.240 --> 00:41:14.280
place sells and this this temporal

00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:18.240
flow of movement becomes exacted to the

00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:21.300
temporal flow of memory into the present

00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:25.079
that it's just the sensory motor body

00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.839
it's like in a if you think of a or a

00:41:27.839 --> 00:41:29.820
paramecium oh there's science for all of

00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:32.940
this a paramecium and how it's cilia

00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:36.240
have to go like this in order right you

00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:39.000
know the the little legs that go like

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:40.980
this so it swims it has to go like this

00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:43.680
right in order for it to swim so that's

00:41:43.680 --> 00:41:45.119
a temporal

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.339
that's a temporal movement in the

00:41:47.339 --> 00:41:48.900
organism

00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:52.820
and that's that's the the the precursors

00:41:52.820 --> 00:41:55.280
to Temple

00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:59.000
memory assemblage and and this

00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.440
temporality of the present in the human

00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:03.660
it's the same

00:42:03.660 --> 00:42:06.480
because I'm like Jim Blundell it's the

00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.859
same template

00:42:07.859 --> 00:42:11.240
and there are subsystems which take on

00:42:11.240 --> 00:42:13.560
these different parts the rolling

00:42:13.560 --> 00:42:15.960
rolling parts

00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:17.820
um so

00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:19.380
um you know the postmoderns will

00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:21.780
problematize this and then again say so

00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:23.520
there you go again you can't even

00:42:23.520 --> 00:42:26.520
actually see reality but these are deep

00:42:26.520 --> 00:42:28.800
properties of reality you know what I

00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:30.660
mean they're

00:42:30.660 --> 00:42:34.200
the only scarce because we expected the

00:42:34.200 --> 00:42:37.320
present to be something like

00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.740
fresh and discreet from the past and and

00:42:40.740 --> 00:42:43.440
they're not so

00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:44.339
um

00:42:44.339 --> 00:42:46.260
so

00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:48.440
um

00:42:51.839 --> 00:42:54.000
it's like it's you know it's magic

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.900
reality it's magic really it's it's

00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:02.400
like magic to be a human being

00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:06.240
it is it's kind of

00:43:06.240 --> 00:43:08.640
but that's really that's awesome that's

00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:10.920
really helpful the the question I've

00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:12.359
been hanging out with that question for

00:43:12.359 --> 00:43:14.180
a while also in relationship to

00:43:14.180 --> 00:43:17.040
temporality duration and epoch

00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:20.880
and and actually how memory kind of how

00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:24.060
it worked here and that was like I I

00:43:24.060 --> 00:43:26.339
wanted to separate them so I could

00:43:26.339 --> 00:43:29.099
understand them for what they were but

00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:30.660
they kept kind of slamming into each

00:43:30.660 --> 00:43:31.680
other

00:43:31.680 --> 00:43:35.160
yeah and you know so

00:43:35.160 --> 00:43:36.720
um

00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:41.180
so both so Jason Brown uh is uh

00:43:41.180 --> 00:43:43.380
microgenesis a neuroscientist and then

00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:45.359
shinsen young so I think in the article

00:43:45.359 --> 00:43:47.520
I show they have very similar

00:43:47.520 --> 00:43:49.380
similar drawings for what's happening

00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:52.020
but one's doing internal phenomenology I

00:43:52.020 --> 00:43:53.400
mean shins and young probably reads

00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:55.500
Neuroscience too so

00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:56.940
yeah

00:43:56.940 --> 00:44:01.200
um and Jason Brown studied Aphasia and

00:44:01.200 --> 00:44:04.800
and there's for many many years and uh

00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.260
he was a clinical uh

00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:12.359
um in a clinical practice and in in what

00:44:12.359 --> 00:44:15.180
he noticed was that there's like seven

00:44:15.180 --> 00:44:17.280
or eight different classifications of

00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:20.000
aphasia and he

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.560
hypothesized that

00:44:22.560 --> 00:44:26.280
that the that the most extreme forms

00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.280
that the person was confined to the

00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:31.980
deepest level of awareness and that they

00:44:31.980 --> 00:44:34.440
were actually levels that the that the

00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.099
that that the president rolled through

00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:41.280
these these levels of awareness so

00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.839
um

00:44:42.839 --> 00:44:44.700
so they're all saying something like

00:44:44.700 --> 00:44:47.000
this terribly hard to describe because

00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:50.160
even what I said there's three there's

00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:52.319
three overlapping waves there's millions

00:44:52.319 --> 00:44:55.800
of waves in This Global and local waves

00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:57.599
and its scale are all the way up and

00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.119
down and your glial cells are actually

00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:03.900
this one book uh the synaptic brain he

00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:06.240
says that the glial cells actually have

00:45:06.240 --> 00:45:09.359
these little cilia and they they move

00:45:09.359 --> 00:45:11.220
just like when they were single cell

00:45:11.220 --> 00:45:12.599
organisms

00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.240
and that modulates memory it's a

00:45:15.240 --> 00:45:19.500
temporal it's a temporal pulse just like

00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:23.880
just I mean glial cells are are cells in

00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:25.800
your habitat but they're not in an

00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.380
external habitat but they have this same

00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:29.579
cilia

00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:31.800
and he thinks that

00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:34.619
um that all priors eventually get coded

00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:37.740
in the Cilia at this very very deep

00:45:37.740 --> 00:45:39.660
level because

00:45:39.660 --> 00:45:44.040
original organ paramecia the ciliated

00:45:44.040 --> 00:45:46.740
Single Cell organisms that's what

00:45:46.740 --> 00:45:48.960
constitutes temporality and memory in

00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:52.500
them and he's like he's so this is a

00:45:52.500 --> 00:45:55.200
case against emergentism you know that

00:45:55.200 --> 00:45:57.180
our kind of memory is not an emergent

00:45:57.180 --> 00:45:59.700
phenomenon from our Consciousness it's

00:45:59.700 --> 00:46:03.480
just a highly orchestrated conversation

00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:07.859
between all the other organisms in US

00:46:07.859 --> 00:46:11.220
um and this is going to we on the verge

00:46:11.220 --> 00:46:13.680
of like Michael Levin is saying this

00:46:13.680 --> 00:46:15.839
many people are saying this we are on

00:46:15.839 --> 00:46:19.140
the verge of a huge revolution in the

00:46:19.140 --> 00:46:22.380
biology biological sciences and the

00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:24.599
understanding of Consciousness that

00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:27.540
seems reductive because

00:46:27.540 --> 00:46:30.900
there's no emergent phenomena now maybe

00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:33.660
that we could

00:46:33.660 --> 00:46:35.880
we could think about that again

00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.240
but it really emphasizes that the mind

00:46:39.240 --> 00:46:41.160
is in the body and the bodies in the

00:46:41.160 --> 00:46:44.040
world and just the way we

00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:46.560
categorize things as seemed like it's

00:46:46.560 --> 00:46:48.660
chopped up the past the present and the

00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:50.040
future

00:46:50.040 --> 00:46:52.079
um and so

00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:52.800
um

00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.500
so these terms even change past present

00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:57.000
and future right I mean they're not

00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:59.940
we're not talking about the future like

00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:02.099
we ordinarily talk about we're not

00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:03.900
talking about the past like way back

00:47:03.900 --> 00:47:07.020
then we're talking about this temporal

00:47:07.020 --> 00:47:10.460
duration within the microgeny of

00:47:10.460 --> 00:47:14.400
experience of the present moment so

00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:16.520
um

00:47:16.859 --> 00:47:19.020
yeah so those are just terms some

00:47:19.020 --> 00:47:21.240
reasons why we call them priors and not

00:47:21.240 --> 00:47:22.740
Memories

00:47:22.740 --> 00:47:24.420
um

00:47:24.420 --> 00:47:26.900
Holly

00:47:29.220 --> 00:47:31.440
yeah your your explanation

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:34.319
um a question arose

00:47:34.319 --> 00:47:35.579
about

00:47:35.579 --> 00:47:37.319
um you know our cells and our body and

00:47:37.319 --> 00:47:39.780
memories within ourselves and

00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:42.720
um the thing that came up was um the

00:47:42.720 --> 00:47:45.119
immune system like is the immune system

00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:47.400
a good example of sort of how memory

00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:49.680
Works in us as well um

00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:52.619
it's a it's an exceptionally good

00:47:52.619 --> 00:47:55.099
example

00:47:55.319 --> 00:47:58.680
um again some people they're all their

00:47:58.680 --> 00:48:01.200
work is all betting on the immune system

00:48:01.200 --> 00:48:04.020
and that its role is much larger than we

00:48:04.020 --> 00:48:05.520
think

00:48:05.520 --> 00:48:06.960
um because

00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.359
I mean think about it even just naively

00:48:09.359 --> 00:48:13.440
we know it has memory and it has it it

00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.440
does exactly what we're saying memory

00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:18.960
does it starts to assemble new things

00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.060
and old things it takes its memory and

00:48:21.060 --> 00:48:23.760
it assembles it into New Path I mean

00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.680
the way we're describing our

00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:28.140
phenomenology of memory is exactly the

00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:30.420
way we talk about the immune system

00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:32.700
and the immune system is highly

00:48:32.700 --> 00:48:35.119
connected to the gut and the gut

00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:37.619
activity we all say there's something

00:48:37.619 --> 00:48:40.760
churning we use the word churning like a

00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:43.859
metabolizing memory and and you know

00:48:43.859 --> 00:48:47.520
it's interesting how how naive use of

00:48:47.520 --> 00:48:52.980
words uh uh can point out like things

00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:54.720
that

00:48:54.720 --> 00:48:57.720
on this on the face of it we think we

00:48:57.720 --> 00:49:00.900
don't understand you know so

00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:02.880
um

00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:04.859
um yeah there's gonna that that's that's

00:49:04.859 --> 00:49:07.380
a big topic of research

00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:08.520
um

00:49:08.520 --> 00:49:11.220
you know the immune system is again

00:49:11.220 --> 00:49:12.900
nobody

00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:15.240
uh doesn't it's it's not very well

00:49:15.240 --> 00:49:18.119
understood and it's at the it's at the

00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:20.579
level of science uh that I would say

00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:24.300
anatomical brain uh science was I mean a

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:26.780
long time ago everybody's looking for

00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:29.880
structures in the brain that were

00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.700
responsible for certain things and this

00:49:32.700 --> 00:49:34.560
is how we look at the immune system now

00:49:34.560 --> 00:49:36.420
structures in the immune system that are

00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:39.660
responsible for certain things uh we've

00:49:39.660 --> 00:49:41.880
gotten now a dynamic and we understand

00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.579
these oscillations and these movements

00:49:44.579 --> 00:49:48.060
are really more of what the brain is the

00:49:48.060 --> 00:49:49.280
brain

00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:53.220
but the complexity of the the system

00:49:53.220 --> 00:49:58.500
is is beyond uh really

00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:01.280
uh

00:50:02.940 --> 00:50:05.099
you know even if you look at these

00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:07.800
incredibly sophisticated animations they

00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:09.260
come

00:50:09.260 --> 00:50:12.660
even if you look at the animation of how

00:50:12.660 --> 00:50:16.680
the inner ear the cochlea uh creates

00:50:16.680 --> 00:50:20.220
hearing is they don't understand it

00:50:20.220 --> 00:50:21.660
you know

00:50:21.660 --> 00:50:23.760
they can just they can say this pushes

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:25.380
on that and then this happens and then

00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:27.599
it gets transduced and then by the they

00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:29.760
can describe like the steps but they

00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:34.200
have no clue what how this actually

00:50:34.200 --> 00:50:37.380
happens and that's just

00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:41.220
um yeah that's just the ear so

00:50:41.220 --> 00:50:43.220
um

00:50:46.020 --> 00:50:48.420
but there's you know obviously there's

00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:51.420
no no sense in worrying that we don't

00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:54.660
understand how we work because it's so

00:50:54.660 --> 00:50:55.980
it's so

00:50:55.980 --> 00:50:58.380
evident that we work you know what I'm

00:50:58.380 --> 00:50:59.940
saying you have to get you don't get

00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:02.160
nervous about it

00:51:02.160 --> 00:51:03.839
um

00:51:03.839 --> 00:51:05.880
if you were like hyper rational or

00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:07.859
schizophrenic you would get very nervous

00:51:07.859 --> 00:51:10.020
about that

00:51:10.020 --> 00:51:12.660
you would be afraid that you didn't work

00:51:12.660 --> 00:51:16.579
because you have no idea how you work

00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:46.920
the this kind of work makes you spaced

00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.440
out you just sit there I'm like oh look

00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.920
what's going on isn't this interesting

00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.380
you like a bunch of people sit around

00:51:55.380 --> 00:51:57.800
like

00:51:59.460 --> 00:52:02.160
right I mean if you have the if you have

00:52:02.160 --> 00:52:04.200
a tendency to

00:52:04.200 --> 00:52:06.300
and but you know what else is nice about

00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:09.960
it which I really appreciate like I'm

00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:11.760
still thinking of Jessica's question is

00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:14.540
is that

00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:16.980
I would just want to point out because

00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:19.440
part of this is the whole thing we're

00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:21.720
building is that we're not doing this

00:52:21.720 --> 00:52:24.000
like aggressive examination about

00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.640
phenomenology of our mind that you do in

00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:28.980
some like Zen practices and stuff like

00:52:28.980 --> 00:52:33.800
like they're very highly stylized

00:52:34.140 --> 00:52:37.559
and hence they can produce weird

00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:40.400
experiences

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.180
but if you're trying to understand

00:52:44.180 --> 00:52:47.839
how it ordinarily works

00:52:47.839 --> 00:52:52.819
there's more of a gentle attending

00:52:52.940 --> 00:52:55.619
and one of the problems with the

00:52:55.619 --> 00:52:58.980
aggressive examination is it that stance

00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:01.400
will produce phenomenon

00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:04.079
that I highly stylized to the

00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:06.000
instructions and then you interpret

00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:07.859
that's what must be the ground of

00:53:07.859 --> 00:53:11.880
experience but it's not and so

00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:13.140
um

00:53:13.140 --> 00:53:15.720
obviously we could do this kind of work

00:53:15.720 --> 00:53:17.220
or some of you might want to do this

00:53:17.220 --> 00:53:19.440
kind of work for long periods of time in

00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:21.180
groups we could we could think about

00:53:21.180 --> 00:53:23.160
memory and perception and do this

00:53:23.160 --> 00:53:26.700
attending this micro phenomenology

00:53:26.700 --> 00:53:28.680
um and I think it's a lovely alternative

00:53:28.680 --> 00:53:30.960
you could do it with children they come

00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:33.660
up with all kinds of cool

00:53:33.660 --> 00:53:35.339
uh uh

00:53:35.339 --> 00:53:36.420
um

00:53:36.420 --> 00:53:41.339
um noticing and um it's just it's just

00:53:41.339 --> 00:53:44.940
um maybe not as spectacular as some of

00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:47.119
these uh

00:53:47.119 --> 00:53:50.350
analytic reductive examinations

00:53:50.350 --> 00:53:51.000
[Music]

00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.339
um

00:53:52.339 --> 00:53:55.559
but there you know we offer them as an

00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:57.839
alternative especially when if

00:53:57.839 --> 00:54:00.480
meditation is going to go like

00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:03.500
be culturally

00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:22.319
I this might not be relevant but it just

00:54:22.319 --> 00:54:25.020
occurs to me to ask if you have seen or

00:54:25.020 --> 00:54:27.059
anyone a movie that came out a couple

00:54:27.059 --> 00:54:28.619
years ago called the sound of metal

00:54:28.619 --> 00:54:32.040
about a drummer like a heavy metal

00:54:32.040 --> 00:54:34.859
drummer who loses his hearing and the

00:54:34.859 --> 00:54:37.260
sound editing in that movie is amazing

00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:40.500
in showing how you know first he has the

00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:42.900
experience of being deaf and then this

00:54:42.900 --> 00:54:44.280
is a bit of a spoiler but he gets

00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:47.460
cochlear implant and how

00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:50.280
things sound like so but basically he's

00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:52.800
in a position of having to like

00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.680
remember how sounds used to sound versus

00:54:55.680 --> 00:54:58.140
what the sound simulation is in his own

00:54:58.140 --> 00:55:01.020
mind and it's just I'm just feeling like

00:55:01.020 --> 00:55:02.940
what a good example that is of being

00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:05.700
able to commit to

00:55:05.700 --> 00:55:07.680
see perception and memory working

00:55:07.680 --> 00:55:10.160
together

00:55:29.579 --> 00:55:31.319
I want to share a memory experience

00:55:31.319 --> 00:55:32.760
something that happened a couple days

00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:37.020
ago I have a black wire dog crate and it

00:55:37.020 --> 00:55:40.020
has a divider panel in it that's two

00:55:40.020 --> 00:55:42.480
panels like wire panels and then it

00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:43.980
folds in half when you're not using it

00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:46.500
and I took it out and it was folded in

00:55:46.500 --> 00:55:47.760
half and it was sitting at the top of

00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:49.440
the stairs and I was in another room

00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.020
where I was looking at it from the side

00:55:52.020 --> 00:55:55.380
so it only looked that wide like this

00:55:55.380 --> 00:55:58.619
tall and about that wide and I I was

00:55:58.619 --> 00:56:01.079
looking at it and I realized

00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:04.380
it would be impossible for me to know

00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:06.420
what that is

00:56:06.420 --> 00:56:09.359
if I had never had any interaction with

00:56:09.359 --> 00:56:13.020
it because it looks nothing like what it

00:56:13.020 --> 00:56:16.380
actually is but because I've used it and

00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:19.500
folded it open I know I can look at a

00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:21.180
thing that looks like nothing like what

00:56:21.180 --> 00:56:24.619
it is and know what it is

00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:32.900
more barking dogs perhaps

00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:38.940
I guess I shared that to say that I'm it

00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:40.880
is impressive the

00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:42.780
gymnastics

00:56:42.780 --> 00:56:44.460
that are

00:56:44.460 --> 00:56:48.780
that we do to orient to what is so in

00:56:48.780 --> 00:56:51.140
our world

00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:03.599
yeah so now we want to use

00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:05.640
um two different words

00:57:05.640 --> 00:57:07.920
um that are common words sorry about the

00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:13.140
dog one is retrieval so we've been doing

00:57:13.140 --> 00:57:15.480
um memory exercises called retrieval

00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:17.760
we're trying to retrieve something

00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:20.339
and then there's recognition so Liz

00:57:20.339 --> 00:57:22.680
you're talking more about recognition

00:57:22.680 --> 00:57:24.480
and

00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:26.760
um because the thing is there in the

00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:29.520
present moment and you are assembling

00:57:29.520 --> 00:57:32.579
something from the past to bring it up

00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:33.380
um

00:57:33.380 --> 00:57:35.099
[Music]

00:57:35.099 --> 00:57:40.559
so they're just two different ways to uh

00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:43.500
parse Paris experience so

00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:47.460
um now the reason why this is important

00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:50.339
is because

00:57:50.339 --> 00:57:52.920
um because they are different so for

00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:54.720
example

00:57:54.720 --> 00:57:56.780
um

00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:02.520
recognition is highly as you described

00:58:02.520 --> 00:58:05.760
it associated with

00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:07.980
um what Heidegger called ready at hand

00:58:07.980 --> 00:58:11.700
we recognize how we can manipulate it we

00:58:11.700 --> 00:58:13.980
recognize

00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:16.680
how it can relate to our bodies we

00:58:16.680 --> 00:58:18.780
recognize it's a hammer we recognize

00:58:18.780 --> 00:58:22.020
that scissors we recognize

00:58:22.020 --> 00:58:25.740
um so the thing about recognition is it

00:58:25.740 --> 00:58:26.760
has

00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:30.720
um it's it's more present and less past

00:58:30.720 --> 00:58:32.760
tense so

00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:36.200
um it's more like perception and and

00:58:36.200 --> 00:58:39.480
awareness of the body the body you see

00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:42.000
it and your body's going like this kind

00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.460
of like inside

00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:46.859
um or you're rotating it in your mind or

00:58:46.859 --> 00:58:48.660
something like that so recognition is

00:58:48.660 --> 00:58:51.299
much more present and retrieval

00:58:51.299 --> 00:58:54.059
you kind of gotta dig more into the past

00:58:54.059 --> 00:58:56.839
they both are under the rubric of of

00:58:56.839 --> 00:59:01.079
memory but here's why it's important if

00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:05.400
we want to look at like uh AI

00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:10.619
so AI can help us retrieve everything a

00:59:10.619 --> 00:59:13.740
lot of information but it will not help

00:59:13.740 --> 00:59:16.920
us recognize it

00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:20.040
anything you need to recognize

00:59:20.040 --> 00:59:22.680
AI can't help you with

00:59:22.680 --> 00:59:26.760
it can only retrieve so how you know

00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:28.740
like and I'll tell you I'll give you an

00:59:28.740 --> 00:59:32.900
example you can I could

00:59:33.319 --> 00:59:36.420
retrieve the blueprints to build

00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:40.260
a 747 jet

00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:42.540
I could never build it

00:59:42.540 --> 00:59:44.760
even if you put all the parts in front

00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:48.119
of me because I can't recognize what I'm

00:59:48.119 --> 00:59:51.299
looking at I can't I can't recognize it

00:59:51.299 --> 00:59:54.359
does that make sense the difference

00:59:54.359 --> 00:59:57.059
so you can retrieve and this is this is

00:59:57.059 --> 00:59:59.339
why in late stage capitalists you'll

00:59:59.339 --> 01:00:01.260
hear people these doomers talk about

01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:04.920
like our civilization is because

01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.920
we have so many systems for retrieving

01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:10.859
storage memory and we don't educate we

01:00:10.859 --> 01:00:13.079
don't transmit the skills to recognize

01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:14.280
things

01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:17.960
using these terms this way

01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.880
so a gardener can recognize something

01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:28.260
about plants that your

01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:32.339
industrial handbook chat gbt can't tell

01:00:32.339 --> 01:00:34.920
you right so

01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:39.059
um so uh retrievals more propositional

01:00:39.059 --> 01:00:41.520
to use John barbanki's terms recognition

01:00:41.520 --> 01:00:46.040
is highly dependent upon participation

01:00:53.099 --> 01:00:55.440
so that's you know it was a great

01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:58.619
noticing the difference and

01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:00.680
um

01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:06.720
so when

01:01:06.720 --> 01:01:08.940
um we look at

01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:12.720
the history of extended memory like in

01:01:12.720 --> 01:01:16.079
into internet

01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:18.180
um we see that

01:01:18.180 --> 01:01:21.059
this is interesting

01:01:21.059 --> 01:01:24.000
way to take this and that is

01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:25.260
um

01:01:25.260 --> 01:01:28.920
uh prior to the internet

01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:32.400
all of social memory Collective memory

01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:33.960
information

01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:38.700
stories first it was all held orally and

01:01:38.700 --> 01:01:41.700
then trust it was held in ritual in the

01:01:41.700 --> 01:01:43.859
body and then in sound in oral and

01:01:43.859 --> 01:01:47.579
narrative and then we invented text

01:01:47.579 --> 01:01:52.440
and so uh so then you had this long

01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:56.599
process of making uh speech to text

01:01:56.599 --> 01:01:59.339
faster and smaller so at first you know

01:01:59.339 --> 01:02:02.520
the Jesuit priests would

01:02:02.520 --> 01:02:05.400
write these huge tomes and stuff and

01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:07.400
pretty soon you had

01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:10.799
mass-produced books and then you had uh

01:02:10.799 --> 01:02:13.440
microfiche do people remember micro fee

01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:16.799
should go into the library so Michael so

01:02:16.799 --> 01:02:20.579
none of this was uh so all of this was

01:02:20.579 --> 01:02:24.380
just making texts smaller

01:02:24.380 --> 01:02:27.619
smaller and faster it wasn't a radical

01:02:27.619 --> 01:02:32.460
uh a radical invention but the then then

01:02:32.460 --> 01:02:35.520
we had the internet where you cut all

01:02:35.520 --> 01:02:37.859
the you could upload all these documents

01:02:37.859 --> 01:02:40.859
first and it was you know floppy tests

01:02:40.859 --> 01:02:43.140
and hard drives and then the cloud but

01:02:43.140 --> 01:02:46.619
that would have overwhelmed people's

01:02:46.619 --> 01:02:49.500
ability to retrieve anything until you

01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:51.599
had the next major invention which was

01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:54.780
search when Google learned how to that

01:02:54.780 --> 01:02:57.359
make the internet searchable

01:02:57.359 --> 01:03:00.420
then uh

01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:03.299
it saw that was a major it didn't just

01:03:03.299 --> 01:03:07.020
reduce storage it it made the user

01:03:07.020 --> 01:03:11.280
interface to retrieve it possible

01:03:11.280 --> 01:03:13.200
um so

01:03:13.200 --> 01:03:16.260
one could now we have chat GDP still

01:03:16.260 --> 01:03:19.920
writing is still just making retrieving

01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:21.420
and so it's an interesting question

01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:23.339
about

01:03:23.339 --> 01:03:25.460
um

01:03:29.640 --> 01:03:34.040
you know people are funny because

01:03:34.040 --> 01:03:36.900
when people today in our society that

01:03:36.900 --> 01:03:40.099
are considering this and they say oh

01:03:40.099 --> 01:03:42.680
retrieval is not a problem Now

01:03:42.680 --> 01:03:45.720
recognition is then the way they're

01:03:45.720 --> 01:03:48.180
going to want to solve it is by making

01:03:48.180 --> 01:03:49.500
robots

01:03:49.500 --> 01:03:52.559
because robots learn through AI they

01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:55.079
self learn how to move their bodies

01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:57.480
and retrieve information recognize

01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:01.500
information in the in the physical world

01:04:01.500 --> 01:04:05.460
um there's more of a uh propensity

01:04:05.460 --> 01:04:07.859
uh for our culture to sail there's a

01:04:07.859 --> 01:04:09.720
solution instead of saying well why

01:04:09.720 --> 01:04:12.059
don't we just like put people into like

01:04:12.059 --> 01:04:15.799
trade schools and and

01:04:15.799 --> 01:04:19.140
re-invent the joy of

01:04:19.140 --> 01:04:21.660
using our bodies it probably won't go

01:04:21.660 --> 01:04:22.740
that way

01:04:22.740 --> 01:04:26.720
which is weird I think

01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:28.859
but anyways that's that's another

01:04:28.859 --> 01:04:33.140
interesting I should put I should

01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:38.220
and retrieve I'll add that to our

01:04:38.220 --> 01:04:41.760
our our section on memory because we try

01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:45.420
to produce this new theory of the body

01:04:45.420 --> 01:04:48.319
does that make sense

01:04:52.040 --> 01:04:54.839
can you give an example of what it would

01:04:54.839 --> 01:04:56.819
look like rather than using robotics

01:04:56.819 --> 01:04:59.099
what it would look like to use the body

01:04:59.099 --> 01:05:02.220
to recover the skill of

01:05:02.220 --> 01:05:04.500
recognizing

01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:07.260
yeah like growing up on a farm kids

01:05:07.260 --> 01:05:12.119
learn how to saw and and nail and they

01:05:12.119 --> 01:05:13.799
learned how to jury rig things when you

01:05:13.799 --> 01:05:16.559
don't have the right thing you use you

01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:20.160
know duct tape and Twine just to come to

01:05:20.160 --> 01:05:22.140
my house and just see which already like

01:05:22.140 --> 01:05:23.880
everything here

01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:25.799
um and

01:05:25.799 --> 01:05:27.000
um

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:29.880
uh you know teaching young kids how to

01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:32.160
cook and

01:05:32.160 --> 01:05:36.180
um and you know gardening and

01:05:36.180 --> 01:05:40.079
um uh yeah

01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:44.280
making tools improving tools

01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:46.319
um you know one of the things I had a

01:05:46.319 --> 01:05:47.700
conversation the other day and we were

01:05:47.700 --> 01:05:49.079
talking about

01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:52.079
artists and

01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:54.720
um I was saying that

01:05:54.720 --> 01:05:55.559
um

01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:58.440
that the reason why artists have to be

01:05:58.440 --> 01:06:01.500
courageous is because

01:06:01.500 --> 01:06:03.359
um they have to

01:06:03.359 --> 01:06:06.240
deal with or come to terms with the

01:06:06.240 --> 01:06:08.520
unforgiving world and what do I mean by

01:06:08.520 --> 01:06:10.319
that is that

01:06:10.319 --> 01:06:13.559
if you're going to be a musician you

01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:15.839
have to learn how to play the piano and

01:06:15.839 --> 01:06:19.859
and or or the violin or the saxophone

01:06:19.859 --> 01:06:21.540
and if you could be an artist you have

01:06:21.540 --> 01:06:22.559
to

01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:25.920
figure out canvas and colors and the

01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:27.660
colors don't give a you know

01:06:27.660 --> 01:06:29.339
they're like I'm just a color put me

01:06:29.339 --> 01:06:32.099
somewhere right and you can't you can't

01:06:32.099 --> 01:06:34.680
strategize the things you make art with

01:06:34.680 --> 01:06:37.740
you can't say to the violin like please

01:06:37.740 --> 01:06:39.359
I see this is my guitar all the time

01:06:39.359 --> 01:06:41.099
please can you just help me out here

01:06:41.099 --> 01:06:44.099
like it doesn't give a like like

01:06:44.099 --> 01:06:46.799
it doesn't give a and so on the one

01:06:46.799 --> 01:06:48.680
hand artists have this profound

01:06:48.680 --> 01:06:52.740
obsession with with this impulse that of

01:06:52.740 --> 01:06:54.980
meaning that's coming to them

01:06:54.980 --> 01:06:58.440
and and and it comes so effortlessly and

01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:00.059
you get so filled with it and then you

01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:02.280
boom you have to slap that

01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:05.339
against the real world do you know what

01:07:05.339 --> 01:07:07.619
I'm saying if you're an artist like like

01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:10.920
the real world I can see the painting I

01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:13.740
can feel it I like I get know they get

01:07:13.740 --> 01:07:16.740
stalled and now I have to work with this

01:07:16.740 --> 01:07:19.079
 like it's physical and it's clunky

01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:21.839
and the pain is not doing what I wanted

01:07:21.839 --> 01:07:24.260
to do like you can't

01:07:24.260 --> 01:07:27.599
strategize it and so someone because

01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:30.960
somebody wanted me to give a I'm giving

01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:33.900
a course on for artists and they said

01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:35.760
well what what would you say to them and

01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:38.339
this was coming out of me like like

01:07:38.339 --> 01:07:39.599
so

01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:43.380
anything that combines like like an

01:07:43.380 --> 01:07:46.859
Impulse a value an arousal with having

01:07:46.859 --> 01:07:50.579
to bump against the unforgivableness the

01:07:50.579 --> 01:07:54.180
unnegotiable the real world's not

01:07:54.180 --> 01:07:57.420
negotiable whereas your iPad is very

01:07:57.420 --> 01:08:00.000
happy to do whatever you want chat GPT

01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:02.700
is very happy these so this don't get

01:08:02.700 --> 01:08:05.039
don't give you those skills it's it's

01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:08.819
this it's this bumping up

01:08:08.819 --> 01:08:11.579
um yeah so

01:08:11.579 --> 01:08:12.359
um

01:08:12.359 --> 01:08:14.539
um

01:08:17.339 --> 01:08:19.380
so something like that has to be

01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:22.020
overcome in the Contemporary system to

01:08:22.020 --> 01:08:25.259
understand that the inevitable brutality

01:08:25.259 --> 01:08:28.520
and frustration of working with the

01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:32.239
non-negotiable world

01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:43.859
I want to offer something that kind of

01:08:43.859 --> 01:08:46.380
runs parallel to that as a as a painter

01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:48.299
for many years

01:08:48.299 --> 01:08:50.580
for a long time like probably the first

01:08:50.580 --> 01:08:54.179
15 years I really thought the answer was

01:08:54.179 --> 01:08:56.940
going to be when I had the formula I

01:08:56.940 --> 01:08:59.819
know how to do a painting a b c d I get

01:08:59.819 --> 01:09:02.940
to zed my painting's done and it really

01:09:02.940 --> 01:09:05.819
took me at until 20 years into painting

01:09:05.819 --> 01:09:07.920
to realize that day's not coming that's

01:09:07.920 --> 01:09:10.799
not how it works and there is something

01:09:10.799 --> 01:09:12.299
that I'm feeling what you're saying

01:09:12.299 --> 01:09:13.020
about

01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:15.359
that brutal reality that like your

01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:17.759
vision always exceeds your grass but

01:09:17.759 --> 01:09:21.420
also the the surrender to but maybe

01:09:21.420 --> 01:09:22.440
there's something here that's much

01:09:22.440 --> 01:09:24.900
bigger than my vision if I can just keep

01:09:24.900 --> 01:09:27.060
partnering partnering with it instead of

01:09:27.060 --> 01:09:29.160
trying to dominate it and control it and

01:09:29.160 --> 01:09:31.699
manage it

01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:54.500
this group is cracking me up

01:09:54.500 --> 01:09:56.780
it's like

01:09:56.780 --> 01:10:00.020
that's that thing you're saying right

01:10:00.020 --> 01:10:03.140
they hold their secrets list

01:10:03.140 --> 01:10:07.760
proud everybody drives me nuts

01:10:11.460 --> 01:10:13.199
well I've been holding Jessica's

01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:15.719
question about memory and the numinous

01:10:15.719 --> 01:10:19.560
and I'm I'm as I sit with that it

01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:21.420
actually feels the opposite for me but

01:10:21.420 --> 01:10:23.219
actually I can recall the numinous more

01:10:23.219 --> 01:10:25.679
readily and easily

01:10:25.679 --> 01:10:26.580
um

01:10:26.580 --> 01:10:30.020
so I just want to throw that out there

01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:43.340
I'd love to hear more about what that

01:10:43.340 --> 01:10:47.219
what you're referring to Jessica just a

01:10:47.219 --> 01:10:48.420
little

01:10:48.420 --> 01:10:50.040
sort of

01:10:50.040 --> 01:10:54.900
opening on numinous in your world sure

01:10:54.900 --> 01:10:56.840
um I'm asking for totally selfish

01:10:56.840 --> 01:10:59.280
selfish reasons

01:10:59.280 --> 01:11:01.560
um because

01:11:01.560 --> 01:11:02.520
um

01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:04.980
I'm In conflict with someone who I care

01:11:04.980 --> 01:11:07.260
about very much

01:11:07.260 --> 01:11:08.520
um

01:11:08.520 --> 01:11:12.719
who thinks that I am besmirching the

01:11:12.719 --> 01:11:16.860
memory of someone who has died and

01:11:16.860 --> 01:11:19.500
I understand why that person feels that

01:11:19.500 --> 01:11:21.060
way and

01:11:21.060 --> 01:11:23.640
I have questions also about like just

01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:25.980
within talking about memory shared

01:11:25.980 --> 01:11:28.860
memory communal memory can you impact

01:11:28.860 --> 01:11:32.580
the memory of another person really

01:11:32.580 --> 01:11:33.360
um

01:11:33.360 --> 01:11:36.199
but

01:11:36.780 --> 01:11:39.480
in a conversation a heated conversation

01:11:39.480 --> 01:11:43.800
where this conflict really arose

01:11:43.800 --> 01:11:46.739
I had the feeling that if that person

01:11:46.739 --> 01:11:50.400
could remember a couple of very specific

01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:52.980
things that happened that I know he

01:11:52.980 --> 01:11:55.739
shared with me but was not remembering

01:11:55.739 --> 01:11:57.719
and even when I brought it up almost

01:11:57.719 --> 01:12:00.960
connected with but not quite like that

01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:03.360
we wouldn't be in conflict and and I

01:12:03.360 --> 01:12:04.199
just

01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:05.699
you know there is the thing about

01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:07.800
feeling tone and disposition that maybe

01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:09.960
there's just no assembling

01:12:09.960 --> 01:12:13.699
that a numinous encounter from anger or

01:12:13.699 --> 01:12:18.420
from fear or or that sort of thing

01:12:18.420 --> 01:12:19.080
um

01:12:19.080 --> 01:12:21.360
so that that's that's that example of

01:12:21.360 --> 01:12:23.880
where I'm personally invested in in the

01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:25.140
answer

01:12:25.140 --> 01:12:28.560
um but also in myself like I feel if

01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:31.500
it's about salience and relevance and

01:12:31.500 --> 01:12:34.080
value in the present moment it seems to

01:12:34.080 --> 01:12:36.000
me that I would always behoove me to

01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:39.600
remember some very important things and

01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:42.060
I just don't seem to be able to to do

01:12:42.060 --> 01:12:44.340
that or even call it up sometimes when I

01:12:44.340 --> 01:12:45.900
need to so

01:12:45.900 --> 01:12:47.159
um Holly I would be interested in

01:12:47.159 --> 01:12:49.260
knowing your point of view when those

01:12:49.260 --> 01:12:52.199
are those are easy for you like like how

01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:54.719
is it easy and what's it like to have

01:12:54.719 --> 01:12:58.340
that at your disposal all the time

01:13:04.380 --> 01:13:06.420
I'm not sure it's at my disposal all the

01:13:06.420 --> 01:13:09.120
time but if you were to prompt me you

01:13:09.120 --> 01:13:11.340
know in Prime

01:13:11.340 --> 01:13:13.460
um

01:13:13.739 --> 01:13:15.780
and I you know I need to give more time

01:13:15.780 --> 01:13:19.080
I think for the question to germinate

01:13:19.080 --> 01:13:23.000
but I think there's something too about

01:13:23.400 --> 01:13:25.080
um

01:13:25.080 --> 01:13:28.199
being conversation with nature

01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:32.640
um regularly in um

01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:35.880
just like lots of memories churning like

01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:37.739
from listening to water

01:13:37.739 --> 01:13:39.920
or noticing light it's sort of like

01:13:39.920 --> 01:13:42.600
where the mind and thoughts are are

01:13:42.600 --> 01:13:45.360
going where the attention is going

01:13:45.360 --> 01:13:47.480
um

01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:51.659
yeah I just noticed that

01:13:51.659 --> 01:13:54.659
the more I spend time in conversation

01:13:54.659 --> 01:13:56.940
with the natural world and noticing

01:13:56.940 --> 01:13:59.460
patterns and

01:13:59.460 --> 01:14:02.460
deepening that intimacy

01:14:02.460 --> 01:14:05.219
um there's a there's a deep remembering

01:14:05.219 --> 01:14:07.620
happening I don't understand it

01:14:07.620 --> 01:14:09.960
um but it there's numinous qualities to

01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:12.000
it but it's not constant you know it's

01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:15.679
it moves with

01:14:16.739 --> 01:14:20.060
So yeah thank you very much

01:14:20.219 --> 01:14:22.219
um

01:14:41.280 --> 01:14:43.140
I'm super curious about what you're

01:14:43.140 --> 01:14:45.780
bringing in about the pattern is

01:14:45.780 --> 01:14:47.699
supporting the recall

01:14:47.699 --> 01:14:50.699
patterns are supporting the recall

01:14:50.699 --> 01:14:53.520
and I missed the part earlier where Jess

01:14:53.520 --> 01:14:55.560
asked the question

01:14:55.560 --> 01:14:57.600
but just do you feel there's less

01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:01.380
pattern to hold on to in a numinous

01:15:01.380 --> 01:15:04.219
encounter

01:15:04.260 --> 01:15:06.840
it's that seems like it might be part of

01:15:06.840 --> 01:15:08.760
it like as Holly was sharing it's almost

01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:11.580
like you know doing wraps in the film

01:15:11.580 --> 01:15:14.640
muscles that are maybe being weak

01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:17.219
um and so that the patterns aren't

01:15:17.219 --> 01:15:19.140
holding together

01:15:19.140 --> 01:15:20.580
um I don't know I'm just totally

01:15:20.580 --> 01:15:24.199
guessing Bonnie anything

01:15:25.320 --> 01:15:28.140
um I I want to stress that it's

01:15:28.140 --> 01:15:30.360
different for different people

01:15:30.360 --> 01:15:34.679
so I so Sandy

01:15:34.679 --> 01:15:36.780
um here

01:15:36.780 --> 01:15:42.120
if we if you if we sit and talk about

01:15:42.120 --> 01:15:43.560
his father

01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:45.900
he will get into a state of deep

01:15:45.900 --> 01:15:48.600
mourning and go through the whole dying

01:15:48.600 --> 01:15:52.380
process will overcome him

01:15:52.380 --> 01:15:54.179
um

01:15:54.179 --> 01:15:56.040
I

01:15:56.040 --> 01:15:59.060
I don't

01:16:01.080 --> 01:16:02.760
um

01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:06.800
I it's hard for me to present

01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:09.360
experiences that I know were very strong

01:16:09.360 --> 01:16:11.880
and Salient to me

01:16:11.880 --> 01:16:13.800
um

01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:17.960
um as experiences what I end up doing

01:16:17.960 --> 01:16:20.659
instead is

01:16:20.659 --> 01:16:24.900
cataloging or categorizing right so all

01:16:24.900 --> 01:16:28.140
all the instances of Injustice I don't

01:16:28.140 --> 01:16:30.420
really remember them I don't go back and

01:16:30.420 --> 01:16:33.140
have like

01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.620
can't even remember but I have this kind

01:16:37.620 --> 01:16:40.020
of catalog of what it feels like to be

01:16:40.020 --> 01:16:42.060
in the face of Injustice

01:16:42.060 --> 01:16:45.239
so that so so it is a it is compiled in

01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:49.320
me or I have a very strong sense of

01:16:49.320 --> 01:16:53.040
um what it what it's like to

01:16:53.040 --> 01:16:54.380
um

01:16:54.380 --> 01:16:59.159
desecrate nature and if if push comes to

01:16:59.159 --> 01:17:01.199
shove I could I could share a million

01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:03.300
stories of when I've been in the face of

01:17:03.300 --> 01:17:04.140
that

01:17:04.140 --> 01:17:07.080
but they're not as strong as the

01:17:07.080 --> 01:17:09.600
cataloging of that experience that I

01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:11.520
have does this make sense these words

01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:17.520
I'm using like like so so somehow they

01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:20.159
all live in the same place in my body

01:17:20.159 --> 01:17:22.980
and they're all of the same so I I would

01:17:22.980 --> 01:17:26.820
I I don't cry for individuals but I cry

01:17:26.820 --> 01:17:28.739
for the suffering of a hundred million

01:17:28.739 --> 01:17:31.080
beings this is I mean this is where what

01:17:31.080 --> 01:17:34.140
it gets me impact gets me as more of a

01:17:34.140 --> 01:17:37.040
catalog of

01:17:37.040 --> 01:17:39.960
Joy or cataloging of The Human

01:17:39.960 --> 01:17:41.940
Experience

01:17:41.940 --> 01:17:44.040
um and so

01:17:44.040 --> 01:17:47.280
when people don't understand that then

01:17:47.280 --> 01:17:51.120
they feel like well how could she not be

01:17:51.120 --> 01:17:55.500
sad about this or be sad about that or

01:17:55.500 --> 01:17:58.260
um so I know that I was sad about it in

01:17:58.260 --> 01:18:01.199
the past but I'm not sad about that

01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:04.620
instance anymore I'm

01:18:04.620 --> 01:18:06.480
in touch with

01:18:06.480 --> 01:18:10.380
the the generic or the categorical

01:18:10.380 --> 01:18:14.780
in or the universal of that experience

01:18:14.780 --> 01:18:18.600
the universal meaning of that experience

01:18:18.600 --> 01:18:20.460
so

01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:22.460
um

01:18:23.100 --> 01:18:25.260
so I don't know if that pertains to what

01:18:25.260 --> 01:18:27.600
you're saying um but I know that people

01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:28.920
have

01:18:28.920 --> 01:18:31.560
been confused

01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:34.380
my sisters even worse I would say than

01:18:34.380 --> 01:18:38.179
me I mean she she

01:18:38.219 --> 01:18:41.159
remembers a lot but the impact this

01:18:41.159 --> 01:18:43.320
doesn't have a lot of

01:18:43.320 --> 01:18:45.840
well let me just not even go there I

01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:48.060
don't really know but

01:18:48.060 --> 01:18:50.640
so so

01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:52.199
um this is something I noticed about

01:18:52.199 --> 01:18:55.739
myself very early uh when I first left

01:18:55.739 --> 01:18:59.179
school and I was in California

01:18:59.280 --> 01:19:01.800
and I started to journal you know what

01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:03.239
do you do when you're young you're in a

01:19:03.239 --> 01:19:05.340
journal you have this experience of

01:19:05.340 --> 01:19:08.820
being on your own in San Francisco

01:19:08.820 --> 01:19:11.880
and I I noticed two things number one I

01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:13.980
noticed that journaling was not good for

01:19:13.980 --> 01:19:15.960
me because I was totally over

01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:18.600
dramatizing everything in my life

01:19:18.600 --> 01:19:20.820
now apparently it's really good for a

01:19:20.820 --> 01:19:23.520
lot of people but I wasn't living my

01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:26.040
life I was making a story about my life

01:19:26.040 --> 01:19:28.260
like I'd read too many like

01:19:28.260 --> 01:19:31.860
Jack Kerouac books or something and so I

01:19:31.860 --> 01:19:33.900
stopped journaling

01:19:33.900 --> 01:19:36.900
um and the second thing I noticed is

01:19:36.900 --> 01:19:38.240
that

01:19:38.240 --> 01:19:38.760
[Music]

01:19:38.760 --> 01:19:39.600
um

01:19:39.600 --> 01:19:42.840
if I I used to play this game like if I

01:19:42.840 --> 01:19:45.360
was gonna die tomorrow who would I want

01:19:45.360 --> 01:19:46.980
to see

01:19:46.980 --> 01:19:49.980
and it would be like seven people

01:19:49.980 --> 01:19:52.500
and other than my mother and father who

01:19:52.500 --> 01:19:54.840
like they're dead now I mean my father's

01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:55.800
dead

01:19:55.800 --> 01:19:58.020
every like three years the seven people

01:19:58.020 --> 01:20:00.719
would change and I'd be like I couldn't

01:20:00.719 --> 01:20:03.060
even remember why I would want to invite

01:20:03.060 --> 01:20:05.580
those people like I just and so I

01:20:05.580 --> 01:20:09.260
noticed how fickle my whole

01:20:09.260 --> 01:20:12.900
experience was if I zoomed out and and

01:20:12.900 --> 01:20:16.739
but but what I want to say is memory is

01:20:16.739 --> 01:20:19.020
really different in ever in different

01:20:19.020 --> 01:20:24.020
people it's not as reliable or or or

01:20:24.020 --> 01:20:26.520
standard than some of these like

01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:29.100
sensation is quite standard

01:20:29.100 --> 01:20:30.780
um then some people feel more than

01:20:30.780 --> 01:20:33.480
others but the way it works is pretty

01:20:33.480 --> 01:20:36.179
much the same but memory tends to be

01:20:36.179 --> 01:20:37.739
very

01:20:37.739 --> 01:20:39.739
um

01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:45.480
uh the broad spectrum of uh the way

01:20:45.480 --> 01:20:48.900
people remember events or seem to

01:20:48.900 --> 01:20:51.900
remember events in their lives

01:20:51.900 --> 01:20:54.480
um so

01:20:54.480 --> 01:20:56.480
um

01:20:58.320 --> 01:21:00.900
so that's I know

01:21:00.900 --> 01:21:05.360
what happens to me so they become

01:21:05.820 --> 01:21:10.020
yeah it becomes becomes like that

01:21:10.020 --> 01:21:13.320
uh so I can tell stories of I tell a lot

01:21:13.320 --> 01:21:15.179
of stories that illustrate things but

01:21:15.179 --> 01:21:18.239
when I tell this story it's not the

01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:20.340
story itself

01:21:20.340 --> 01:21:23.340
is like a parable that points to these

01:21:23.340 --> 01:21:27.420
catalogs of universal feelings but I

01:21:27.420 --> 01:21:29.460
don't as I'm telling the story except

01:21:29.460 --> 01:21:30.900
for a few of them

01:21:30.900 --> 01:21:34.199
that are you know archetypal to me

01:21:34.199 --> 01:21:37.280
um I don't

01:21:39.719 --> 01:21:43.679
I don't I don't I don't I can't get get

01:21:43.679 --> 01:21:47.540
there I can't inhabit that memory

01:21:49.739 --> 01:21:52.260
which is why I often tell the stories

01:21:52.260 --> 01:21:54.739
and

01:21:54.739 --> 01:21:58.320
the way I tell the stories is even the

01:21:58.320 --> 01:22:00.420
saddest stories kind of like I can tell

01:22:00.420 --> 01:22:02.460
it with a sense of humor or whatever

01:22:02.460 --> 01:22:03.900
because

01:22:03.900 --> 01:22:06.300
I know the story is illustrative but I

01:22:06.300 --> 01:22:08.460
don't experience

01:22:08.460 --> 01:22:11.940
the gravitas of that that

01:22:11.940 --> 01:22:15.600
event anymore I I certainly remember

01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:17.400
that it had gravitas

01:22:17.400 --> 01:22:19.620
[Music]

01:22:19.620 --> 01:22:21.360
um but

01:22:21.360 --> 01:22:24.300
yeah so

01:22:24.300 --> 01:22:26.040
um

01:22:26.040 --> 01:22:28.560
I went to a parent in my life this pit

01:22:28.560 --> 01:22:30.540
period where I was journaling

01:22:30.540 --> 01:22:32.520
I think this was What stopped the

01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:34.260
journalisting see now all of a sudden I

01:22:34.260 --> 01:22:36.659
remember a piece of it when I used to

01:22:36.659 --> 01:22:39.060
have this theory of the human heart I

01:22:39.060 --> 01:22:41.040
probably wrote it somewhere and the

01:22:41.040 --> 01:22:45.179
theory was the heart was a sieve to

01:22:45.179 --> 01:22:47.040
joyful memories

01:22:47.040 --> 01:22:48.960
and a sink

01:22:48.960 --> 01:22:52.199
to painful ones that that all you could

01:22:52.199 --> 01:22:55.140
all the heart does is like

01:22:55.140 --> 01:22:57.360
over time just

01:22:57.360 --> 01:23:00.659
contain more and more pain but it didn't

01:23:00.659 --> 01:23:02.820
it didn't was an interesting in holding

01:23:02.820 --> 01:23:05.460
any Joy this was how like I mean I don't

01:23:05.460 --> 01:23:08.159
feel that way anymore but at that point

01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:09.780
in my life

01:23:09.780 --> 01:23:13.260
this was a mental model I had so

01:23:13.260 --> 01:23:15.900
everything was over dramatized you know

01:23:15.900 --> 01:23:18.480
as young people do

01:23:18.480 --> 01:23:21.480
foreign

01:23:22.699 --> 01:23:26.340
Bonnie I hear puppies is that I I just

01:23:26.340 --> 01:23:29.880
hear puppies is that is that you those

01:23:29.880 --> 01:23:32.219
are my two little dogs they're you know

01:23:32.219 --> 01:23:36.060
they they know it's almost time so

01:23:36.060 --> 01:23:38.400
they're they're fighting with each other

01:23:38.400 --> 01:23:42.179
and whining on top of that that right

01:23:42.179 --> 01:23:45.719
it's pathetic I know it's like

01:23:45.719 --> 01:23:49.199
yeah I just I was in with Marie in the

01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:50.520
in them

01:23:50.520 --> 01:23:54.239
in the breakout rooms I really enjoyed

01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:56.040
bringing up the memories and how

01:23:56.040 --> 01:23:58.560
different it was for both of us

01:23:58.560 --> 01:24:00.719
um what I've what I've been noticing and

01:24:00.719 --> 01:24:03.600
blue so

01:24:03.600 --> 01:24:05.580
I started to realize the importance of

01:24:05.580 --> 01:24:07.199
the slowing down

01:24:07.199 --> 01:24:09.840
it's like it's almost like um being in

01:24:09.840 --> 01:24:12.120
the classroom and a teacher asks you hey

01:24:12.120 --> 01:24:14.340
can you recall this and it has to be

01:24:14.340 --> 01:24:15.480
instant

01:24:15.480 --> 01:24:19.620
but this is a different way of recalling

01:24:19.620 --> 01:24:22.020
by the instructions you gave and what I

01:24:22.020 --> 01:24:26.880
started noticing was very much so the in

01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:28.800
the postures

01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:32.880
it's like I I could recall two

01:24:32.880 --> 01:24:35.699
um instances this week where I noticed

01:24:35.699 --> 01:24:38.400
the impact of the posture

01:24:38.400 --> 01:24:40.980
of how I recall and what comes online

01:24:40.980 --> 01:24:44.100
and what goes offline to how I assemble

01:24:44.100 --> 01:24:45.420
the memory

01:24:45.420 --> 01:24:47.040
and then also looking at my

01:24:47.040 --> 01:24:49.920
dispositional state and vantage point

01:24:49.920 --> 01:24:52.560
and what is it in service all

01:24:52.560 --> 01:24:57.120
so why do I want to recall this memory

01:24:57.120 --> 01:24:59.640
is it for going to create a contracted

01:24:59.640 --> 01:25:03.239
or an open state or is it both end and

01:25:03.239 --> 01:25:05.520
and the arousal there was such an

01:25:05.520 --> 01:25:08.219
arousal and it satisfies like yeah I'm

01:25:08.219 --> 01:25:11.699
going here yes there's more and then and

01:25:11.699 --> 01:25:13.739
then when you go into that state it's

01:25:13.739 --> 01:25:15.600
almost like a flow state

01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:18.239
and that flow State creates that place

01:25:18.239 --> 01:25:20.940
of knowing

01:25:20.940 --> 01:25:23.580
because there's no other place where I

01:25:23.580 --> 01:25:25.380
want to be because this is what to

01:25:25.380 --> 01:25:28.199
satisfies the actions for the arousal

01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:30.960
and then I actually don't have to go to

01:25:30.960 --> 01:25:32.940
the emotional state or to the loopy

01:25:32.940 --> 01:25:34.620
state or creating stories it actually

01:25:34.620 --> 01:25:38.699
stays really really down down there and

01:25:38.699 --> 01:25:40.500
it's almost like wanting to serve on

01:25:40.500 --> 01:25:43.020
that wave because it's that wave of life

01:25:43.020 --> 01:25:46.620
that is coming through

01:25:46.620 --> 01:25:49.980
uh yeah I've got a lot of energy yes you

01:25:49.980 --> 01:25:52.620
can feel I'm here but this is like fun

01:25:52.620 --> 01:25:55.620
it's like yes I want to play with this I

01:25:55.620 --> 01:25:59.460
want to see the micro mimics of how it

01:25:59.460 --> 01:26:01.739
actually works and what systems are here

01:26:01.739 --> 01:26:02.639
and

01:26:02.639 --> 01:26:05.580
and it yeah it's like

01:26:05.580 --> 01:26:07.560
and what I also saw were the filters

01:26:07.560 --> 01:26:11.400
sorry my headphones are playing up

01:26:11.400 --> 01:26:13.920
like some filters what what kind of

01:26:13.920 --> 01:26:16.500
filters am I putting on and off it's

01:26:16.500 --> 01:26:17.780
like

01:26:17.780 --> 01:26:22.080
maybe if I look at look at from this

01:26:22.080 --> 01:26:24.659
position or if I look from the second

01:26:24.659 --> 01:26:26.820
person perspective or in the liminal

01:26:26.820 --> 01:26:28.980
space where am I

01:26:28.980 --> 01:26:32.880
say so what what was today prompt that's

01:26:32.880 --> 01:26:36.080
a question from Liz

01:26:36.600 --> 01:26:38.820
yeah let's just just tell her what the

01:26:38.820 --> 01:26:41.840
prompt was for today

01:26:44.159 --> 01:26:47.040
um to remember yes yeah remember I've

01:26:47.040 --> 01:26:48.900
come think of someone that you don't

01:26:48.900 --> 01:26:50.699
live with in your house or that you're

01:26:50.699 --> 01:26:54.300
building remember a conversation in real

01:26:54.300 --> 01:26:57.300
life that you had

01:26:57.300 --> 01:26:59.820
um and then can you actually you know

01:26:59.820 --> 01:27:02.159
notice the surroundings and this and

01:27:02.159 --> 01:27:03.060
then

01:27:03.060 --> 01:27:07.980
can you actually remember what they said

01:27:07.980 --> 01:27:08.760
um

01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:11.580
so that's that was the problem now one

01:27:11.580 --> 01:27:13.440
of the things I don't that Anna's

01:27:13.440 --> 01:27:16.440
pointing out and I know I'm doing a lot

01:27:16.440 --> 01:27:19.320
of talking today but we skipped a day

01:27:19.320 --> 01:27:20.580
and

01:27:20.580 --> 01:27:23.540
these insights are important to come out

01:27:23.540 --> 01:27:27.600
is that if you watch I mean you can put

01:27:27.600 --> 01:27:29.699
you should play with this I know that

01:27:29.699 --> 01:27:31.139
it's kind of like it happens

01:27:31.139 --> 01:27:32.639
automatically when you're in these

01:27:32.639 --> 01:27:36.300
courses you see you've proceed if you

01:27:36.300 --> 01:27:38.880
watch when there's gaps

01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:42.719
there's nothing happening right you will

01:27:42.719 --> 01:27:45.239
feel what Anna's going like this and

01:27:45.239 --> 01:27:48.239
that's because memory is booted up by

01:27:48.239 --> 01:27:51.540
this internal uh rhythm of a

01:27:51.540 --> 01:27:54.300
hypothalamus it'll start to you'll start

01:27:54.300 --> 01:27:57.179
to only feel the process of the the

01:27:57.179 --> 01:28:02.100
Rhythm process that's the churning

01:28:02.100 --> 01:28:04.080
um and it just doesn't have any

01:28:04.080 --> 01:28:06.239
information you haven't stored you

01:28:06.239 --> 01:28:07.199
probably

01:28:07.199 --> 01:28:09.360
you know when you sleep it's gotten rid

01:28:09.360 --> 01:28:10.739
of those connections they weren't

01:28:10.739 --> 01:28:12.420
Salient

01:28:12.420 --> 01:28:14.400
um but then if you try to say but what's

01:28:14.400 --> 01:28:17.940
in between here and here come on and and

01:28:17.940 --> 01:28:20.159
you'll feel the process

01:28:20.159 --> 01:28:23.120
of of

01:28:23.280 --> 01:28:25.139
yeah of

01:28:25.139 --> 01:28:27.120
you'll feel a rhythm it's an interesting

01:28:27.120 --> 01:28:29.580
way to get in a flow State you feel

01:28:29.580 --> 01:28:32.219
these just what she was doing with her

01:28:32.219 --> 01:28:33.780
body there's not because there's nothing

01:28:33.780 --> 01:28:35.820
there whereas when it does serve

01:28:35.820 --> 01:28:39.060
something up then you notice and you go

01:28:39.060 --> 01:28:40.440
on but

01:28:40.440 --> 01:28:42.719
um so

01:28:42.719 --> 01:28:45.480
um these are all

01:28:45.480 --> 01:28:48.600
and and it's a great example of our

01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:52.020
project because memories in the body you

01:28:52.020 --> 01:28:54.659
know I mean it it comes to us as is a

01:28:54.659 --> 01:28:57.300
mental object or an image but these

01:28:57.300 --> 01:29:00.239
these fundamental processes are our

01:29:00.239 --> 01:29:05.400
bodily processes and gestures and uh

01:29:05.400 --> 01:29:07.580
um

01:29:07.679 --> 01:29:10.020
and everyone I'm noticing right now is

01:29:10.020 --> 01:29:12.360
the toggle between being in the memory

01:29:12.360 --> 01:29:14.520
State and being in the present like the

01:29:14.520 --> 01:29:16.880
way we were all like a few minutes ago

01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:22.139
it it it's a world that you know you can

01:29:22.139 --> 01:29:24.719
you can kind of recede in

01:29:24.719 --> 01:29:25.620
um

01:29:25.620 --> 01:29:27.360
uh

01:29:27.360 --> 01:29:30.420
yeah so

01:29:30.420 --> 01:29:32.880
I think it's it's

01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:34.679
you know you're all very good because

01:29:34.679 --> 01:29:36.719
people with really really busy minds

01:29:36.719 --> 01:29:38.400
they can't do this they just go off into

01:29:38.400 --> 01:29:41.159
like you know like

01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:43.260
um but

01:29:43.260 --> 01:29:46.739
um meditation and the mechanic mechanics

01:29:46.739 --> 01:29:49.320
right mechanisms of memories is

01:29:49.320 --> 01:29:51.480
interesting

01:29:51.480 --> 01:29:53.480
um

01:29:55.500 --> 01:29:57.420
and when we go we're going to go into

01:29:57.420 --> 01:29:59.719
imagination next I think you

01:29:59.719 --> 01:30:03.360
automatically can see why

01:30:03.360 --> 01:30:05.820
because when you're in these spaces

01:30:05.820 --> 01:30:08.699
where there's no memory coming

01:30:08.699 --> 01:30:12.300
it's very similar feeling to the root

01:30:12.300 --> 01:30:15.739
space of imagination

01:30:17.460 --> 01:30:19.520
um

01:30:22.739 --> 01:30:25.199
and the toggle is interesting if you if

01:30:25.199 --> 01:30:27.540
you if you know your

01:30:27.540 --> 01:30:31.800
doing a memory it'll it'll

01:30:31.800 --> 01:30:34.980
shut down the engines of imagination it

01:30:34.980 --> 01:30:36.840
won't be polluted with unless you're

01:30:36.840 --> 01:30:39.060
under duress then you can imagine you'll

01:30:39.060 --> 01:30:41.639
imagine into a memory but you can feel

01:30:41.639 --> 01:30:44.639
the toggle between quieting that part of

01:30:44.639 --> 01:30:46.380
your mind that wants to imagine into

01:30:46.380 --> 01:30:49.260
that space of not remembering by staying

01:30:49.260 --> 01:30:51.320
with the feeling of being in the

01:30:51.320 --> 01:30:53.520
disposition of memory does that make

01:30:53.520 --> 01:30:55.760
sense

01:31:01.800 --> 01:31:05.639
it's a different yeah Sandra

01:31:05.639 --> 01:31:08.520
this is a in a different direction a

01:31:08.520 --> 01:31:10.620
little bit but it

01:31:10.620 --> 01:31:14.340
I'm remembering doing a lot of

01:31:14.340 --> 01:31:14.880
um

01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:16.980
pre and perinatal

01:31:16.980 --> 01:31:20.580
processing with people using hot tubs

01:31:20.580 --> 01:31:26.159
and all kinds of things and how the

01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:29.460
these dents would show up on people's

01:31:29.460 --> 01:31:31.260
foreheads

01:31:31.260 --> 01:31:33.659
where forceps had been I mean they were

01:31:33.659 --> 01:31:34.920
visible

01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:37.380
dense or how

01:31:37.380 --> 01:31:40.440
the the way that the body

01:31:40.440 --> 01:31:45.900
somehow encodes an entire experience

01:31:45.900 --> 01:31:46.380
[Music]

01:31:46.380 --> 01:31:47.219
um

01:31:47.219 --> 01:31:50.460
stripes on the neck that would be very

01:31:50.460 --> 01:31:53.940
noticeable White Stripes of a cord wrap

01:31:53.940 --> 01:31:55.860
or other things

01:31:55.860 --> 01:31:57.420
so that

01:31:57.420 --> 01:32:00.239
that whole

01:32:00.239 --> 01:32:01.860
you know the question you're posing

01:32:01.860 --> 01:32:02.760
about

01:32:02.760 --> 01:32:06.179
where is it stored and how does it form

01:32:06.179 --> 01:32:09.239
and how is it expressed and

01:32:09.239 --> 01:32:11.699
why would it show up

01:32:11.699 --> 01:32:13.080
doing

01:32:13.080 --> 01:32:16.380
hot tub work I mean it's just the whole

01:32:16.380 --> 01:32:19.880
thing is fascinating to me

01:32:20.580 --> 01:32:25.260
and no you know like no knowledge or

01:32:25.260 --> 01:32:27.659
story about oh yes I was delivered by

01:32:27.659 --> 01:32:29.280
forceps but

01:32:29.280 --> 01:32:30.960
somehow

01:32:30.960 --> 01:32:33.719
markings

01:32:33.719 --> 01:32:37.040
on the body

01:32:37.080 --> 01:32:39.120
it reminds me of what Ray said the other

01:32:39.120 --> 01:32:40.920
day about his friend that his friend can

01:32:40.920 --> 01:32:44.659
remember the name by taking the

01:32:44.820 --> 01:32:50.000
yeah of the person right and yeah

01:32:55.080 --> 01:32:58.679
and also just thinking about how Natalie

01:32:58.679 --> 01:33:01.260
Goldberg in her writing classes would

01:33:01.260 --> 01:33:04.440
always use the prompt I I remember so

01:33:04.440 --> 01:33:07.320
just start with I remember and

01:33:07.320 --> 01:33:10.260
and when you get lost write it again I

01:33:10.260 --> 01:33:12.900
remember or start with I don't remember

01:33:12.900 --> 01:33:17.159
but it still evokes you know just

01:33:17.159 --> 01:33:21.739
somewhere between memory and Imagination

01:33:21.960 --> 01:33:25.139
and how accurate some of it

01:33:25.139 --> 01:33:29.000
you know how precise it can be

01:33:29.400 --> 01:33:32.400
pangolini

01:33:33.960 --> 01:33:36.900
you about your hand raise pangolini is

01:33:36.900 --> 01:33:40.159
it what is it called a Pantone Zoe

01:33:40.159 --> 01:33:43.020
jungle in yeah

01:33:43.020 --> 01:33:45.719
a Pangolin

01:33:45.719 --> 01:33:49.620
um yeah I'm reflecting on

01:33:49.620 --> 01:33:51.420
on the things you've been talking about

01:33:51.420 --> 01:33:54.980
about that um

01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:58.159
the relationship between

01:33:58.159 --> 01:34:03.739
the the memory memory and Imagination

01:34:04.560 --> 01:34:07.500
and I'm realizing

01:34:07.500 --> 01:34:10.760
that I have a lot of

01:34:10.760 --> 01:34:12.540
memory

01:34:12.540 --> 01:34:15.860
of imaginary

01:34:16.320 --> 01:34:18.179
things

01:34:18.179 --> 01:34:21.360
so I I I don't know I don't know it's

01:34:21.360 --> 01:34:23.940
just an ins and this is just a quite a

01:34:23.940 --> 01:34:28.080
personal Insight I guess about how

01:34:28.080 --> 01:34:30.540
maybe how I work

01:34:30.540 --> 01:34:34.860
maybe it's also to do with projecting

01:34:34.860 --> 01:34:37.320
into the future

01:34:37.320 --> 01:34:41.100
somehow or using the material of my life

01:34:41.100 --> 01:34:44.580
where I'm wanting to

01:34:44.580 --> 01:34:48.600
make something from it or

01:34:48.600 --> 01:34:51.260
so a lot of my

01:34:51.260 --> 01:34:56.639
the things that I remember most vividly

01:34:56.639 --> 01:35:00.380
are actually kind of

01:35:01.020 --> 01:35:04.199
images of things I want to create in the

01:35:04.199 --> 01:35:06.440
future

01:35:06.780 --> 01:35:08.520
and I'm wondering if

01:35:08.520 --> 01:35:10.860
if anyone can offer any insight into

01:35:10.860 --> 01:35:13.500
what that relationship is

01:35:13.500 --> 01:35:14.580
okay

01:35:14.580 --> 01:35:18.020
so this is great

01:35:20.280 --> 01:35:23.040
that I remember the most vividly that

01:35:23.040 --> 01:35:25.860
are the most meaningful to me I can't

01:35:25.860 --> 01:35:28.320
honestly tell you if I have imagined

01:35:28.320 --> 01:35:30.860
them or not

01:35:32.460 --> 01:35:35.100
so one of my earliest memories is being

01:35:35.100 --> 01:35:37.320
this little girl my parents were

01:35:37.320 --> 01:35:40.340
building the house behind my

01:35:40.340 --> 01:35:42.440
grandfather's house

01:35:42.440 --> 01:35:45.840
I know that because it's a fact

01:35:45.840 --> 01:35:48.540
I could not have said that I was a tiny

01:35:48.540 --> 01:35:53.480
little thing and I remember this purple

01:35:53.480 --> 01:35:56.460
tool like you know it was it must have

01:35:56.460 --> 01:35:58.620
been Easter Sunday she used to buy these

01:35:58.620 --> 01:36:00.600
dresses for us and I remember I get

01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:03.620
caught on a

01:36:03.620 --> 01:36:07.159
uh nail

01:36:07.280 --> 01:36:11.280
and I remember it was near the entrance

01:36:11.280 --> 01:36:13.800
to the cellar and the steering way

01:36:13.800 --> 01:36:15.360
wasn't well

01:36:15.360 --> 01:36:18.780
framed yet and that my favorite bird

01:36:18.780 --> 01:36:22.320
died down there this is a memory my when

01:36:22.320 --> 01:36:24.239
people ask what's your first memory this

01:36:24.239 --> 01:36:27.540
is my first memory and I have no idea if

01:36:27.540 --> 01:36:29.880
it lives in my imagination in my dreams

01:36:29.880 --> 01:36:32.900
or if it was real

01:36:34.159 --> 01:36:37.139
now that's weird right

01:36:37.139 --> 01:36:41.540
but it's it's

01:36:43.260 --> 01:36:47.639
this is probably much more the case

01:36:47.639 --> 01:36:49.139
uh

01:36:49.139 --> 01:36:51.000
than people think

01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:54.120
in terms of really salient

01:36:54.120 --> 01:36:57.239
memories and so

01:36:57.239 --> 01:36:58.500
um

01:36:58.500 --> 01:37:01.020
because

01:37:01.020 --> 01:37:05.159
we process we process and embellish and

01:37:05.159 --> 01:37:07.739
encode a lot of really Salient things in

01:37:07.739 --> 01:37:09.480
our dreams and the dreams are very

01:37:09.480 --> 01:37:10.860
imaginary

01:37:10.860 --> 01:37:13.560
they're not dreams are not in service to

01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:15.480
the present

01:37:15.480 --> 01:37:17.040
so they're everything we said about

01:37:17.040 --> 01:37:19.199
memory but they're not in service to the

01:37:19.199 --> 01:37:21.060
present some dreams are like when you're

01:37:21.060 --> 01:37:23.100
worried about work and stuff like that

01:37:23.100 --> 01:37:25.739
but not these types of Dreams

01:37:25.739 --> 01:37:29.140
they're in service to something else

01:37:29.140 --> 01:37:30.239
[Music]

01:37:30.239 --> 01:37:34.440
so that's what uh that's what makes

01:37:34.440 --> 01:37:37.320
that's my response to Zoe there is

01:37:37.320 --> 01:37:38.520
something

01:37:38.520 --> 01:37:40.920
in certain types of people and I think

01:37:40.920 --> 01:37:42.540
most people

01:37:42.540 --> 01:37:44.940
if they could be honest

01:37:44.940 --> 01:37:48.980
uh would admit that

01:37:49.320 --> 01:37:52.699
there's this really fine line between

01:37:52.699 --> 01:37:56.340
the trivial things I remember but these

01:37:56.340 --> 01:37:58.739
the interesting things is these are very

01:37:58.739 --> 01:38:01.199
Salient and meaningful memories and

01:38:01.199 --> 01:38:04.620
they're very closely tied up into in in

01:38:04.620 --> 01:38:08.159
into imagination

01:38:08.480 --> 01:38:11.760
they're embellished by imagination in an

01:38:11.760 --> 01:38:15.900
interesting way and so that makes our

01:38:15.900 --> 01:38:17.639
most for some people this is different

01:38:17.639 --> 01:38:19.860
for all people but makes for some people

01:38:19.860 --> 01:38:22.920
their most cherished memories

01:38:22.920 --> 01:38:27.780
highly suspicious in terms of the facts

01:38:27.780 --> 01:38:31.020
but completely reliable in terms of the

01:38:31.020 --> 01:38:32.520
meaning

01:38:32.520 --> 01:38:34.920
and the salience right because that's

01:38:34.920 --> 01:38:37.620
the what dreams are doing they're not

01:38:37.620 --> 01:38:39.060
interested in the facts they're

01:38:39.060 --> 01:38:41.639
interested in you preserving the meaning

01:38:41.639 --> 01:38:43.320
of the salience

01:38:43.320 --> 01:38:47.840
and it does that by adding

01:38:48.020 --> 01:38:50.699
more information imaginary information

01:38:50.699 --> 01:38:54.500
so there's more connection

01:38:55.500 --> 01:38:59.120
so there's another interesting thing

01:39:01.440 --> 01:39:08.699
yeah um I just wanted to respond to that

01:39:08.699 --> 01:39:12.420
um probably a few years ago when I was

01:39:12.420 --> 01:39:14.400
on a trip with my brother we went away

01:39:14.400 --> 01:39:18.120
for five years or five months together

01:39:18.120 --> 01:39:20.400
um and visited a whole lot of relatives

01:39:20.400 --> 01:39:22.260
our childhood and things that had

01:39:22.260 --> 01:39:24.600
happened and that's one of the things

01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:27.840
that really arose for me was that first

01:39:27.840 --> 01:39:30.719
I began to think oh he's imagining that

01:39:30.719 --> 01:39:32.760
he would be telling me something that

01:39:32.760 --> 01:39:35.580
happened I didn't remember it at all not

01:39:35.580 --> 01:39:38.639
even the facts but then I began to see

01:39:38.639 --> 01:39:40.920
ah this looks like

01:39:40.920 --> 01:39:43.679
he's imagining it and then of course the

01:39:43.679 --> 01:39:46.860
realization that in some cases so was I

01:39:46.860 --> 01:39:50.100
and it was a very it was fun it became

01:39:50.100 --> 01:39:52.679
fun after a while at first it was like

01:39:52.679 --> 01:39:54.659
no that didn't happen yes that did

01:39:54.659 --> 01:39:56.639
happen then it became this really

01:39:56.639 --> 01:40:00.120
interesting conversation about why did I

01:40:00.120 --> 01:40:01.980
not remember anything at all about this

01:40:01.980 --> 01:40:04.380
event that he said I was there

01:40:04.380 --> 01:40:09.120
and then why was I seeing him imagining

01:40:09.120 --> 01:40:12.420
part of the story and it is because it

01:40:12.420 --> 01:40:14.400
was very meaningful to him

01:40:14.400 --> 01:40:17.040
but another thing that happened and I'm

01:40:17.040 --> 01:40:19.139
not sure Ray if this relates to your

01:40:19.139 --> 01:40:21.659
question and I it's just I saw this when

01:40:21.659 --> 01:40:24.300
you asked this in our group and I may

01:40:24.300 --> 01:40:27.179
have completely misunderstood

01:40:27.179 --> 01:40:29.880
um but sometimes when my brother would

01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:32.400
be speaking about memory

01:40:32.400 --> 01:40:35.540
and about a specific memory or memories

01:40:35.540 --> 01:40:38.820
for a moment just from a moment

01:40:38.820 --> 01:40:42.900
I could see him in that

01:40:42.900 --> 01:40:46.980
is who he was in that moment because of

01:40:46.980 --> 01:40:51.840
that memory and I I don't quite know how

01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:55.620
to explain it any further but I don't

01:40:55.620 --> 01:40:58.320
know if I misunderstood you Ray saying

01:40:58.320 --> 01:41:01.400
is This Moment by Moment by moment

01:41:01.400 --> 01:41:05.280
really the self what is and and that

01:41:05.280 --> 01:41:07.739
just sparked me back to my brother in

01:41:07.739 --> 01:41:09.540
this experience with my brother

01:41:09.540 --> 01:41:12.860
anyway thank you

01:41:17.820 --> 01:41:20.880
okay so this is a lot I mean there's all

01:41:20.880 --> 01:41:23.520
there's so much richness here I just

01:41:23.520 --> 01:41:26.280
want to add one of the things and to

01:41:26.280 --> 01:41:29.580
problematize or you could think about

01:41:29.580 --> 01:41:31.320
um

01:41:31.320 --> 01:41:34.080
now you understand why you know I've got

01:41:34.080 --> 01:41:35.520
a lot on the cranky I have a lot of

01:41:35.520 --> 01:41:38.580
criticisms about things but now if you

01:41:38.580 --> 01:41:40.080
take what we're learning about memory

01:41:40.080 --> 01:41:43.619
and you problematize

01:41:43.619 --> 01:41:46.380
so Susan told the story about between

01:41:46.380 --> 01:41:48.239
her and her brother I told a story about

01:41:48.239 --> 01:41:50.940
my own internal confusion now we have

01:41:50.940 --> 01:41:53.400
this thing Collective memory passed down

01:41:53.400 --> 01:41:55.619
through generations or the memory of a

01:41:55.619 --> 01:41:58.380
nation of our peoples or the Volk it

01:41:58.380 --> 01:41:59.659
gets a

01:41:59.659 --> 01:42:02.340
extraordinarily complex

01:42:02.340 --> 01:42:04.679
beyond our capacity we shouldn't even

01:42:04.679 --> 01:42:06.239
have words for these things because

01:42:06.239 --> 01:42:09.300
they're too complex and so so we have to

01:42:09.300 --> 01:42:12.420
be very we have to be very

01:42:12.420 --> 01:42:14.480
um

01:42:20.040 --> 01:42:22.440
um our participation with these things

01:42:22.440 --> 01:42:24.179
needs to be

01:42:24.179 --> 01:42:25.739
kind of

01:42:25.739 --> 01:42:29.840
with the same kind of naive

01:42:29.840 --> 01:42:32.520
wondering of what's actually going on

01:42:32.520 --> 01:42:36.360
and a lot of the the the the the big

01:42:36.360 --> 01:42:39.239
standard theories they're too tidy

01:42:39.239 --> 01:42:43.860
they're too tidy for what memory is and

01:42:43.860 --> 01:42:46.159
and we don't really understand

01:42:46.159 --> 01:42:48.960
uh memory

01:42:48.960 --> 01:42:51.300
um and that's of course how I started

01:42:51.300 --> 01:42:53.580
the course content to be aware that

01:42:53.580 --> 01:42:55.260
there's a there's

01:42:55.260 --> 01:42:58.440
it's it's it's a magical thing

01:42:58.440 --> 01:43:01.460
and it should be

01:43:01.460 --> 01:43:05.880
uh addressed more as something sacred

01:43:05.880 --> 01:43:08.880
and magical because

01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:12.360
it it's it's kind of like that like like

01:43:12.360 --> 01:43:14.760
the ring like the ring in The Lord of

01:43:14.760 --> 01:43:18.239
the Rings right it's like powerful but

01:43:18.239 --> 01:43:21.480
like you don't really want to trust

01:43:21.480 --> 01:43:24.260
yourself with it

01:43:24.659 --> 01:43:26.580
thank you all so much it was a great

01:43:26.580 --> 01:43:29.179
conversation

## Cohort 3

00:00:01.399 --> 00:00:06.740
okay here we are hi Zach

00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:12.840
hi Bonnie hi all great to be here with

00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:14.960
you

00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:18.000
all right so

00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.400
how this is gonna go down today another

00:00:20.400 --> 00:00:24.740
kind of variation on a theme

00:00:24.740 --> 00:00:26.460
is

00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:28.460
um

00:00:30.660 --> 00:00:33.719
there's old people the David the Dave

00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.059
everybody's gonna need to die ads now

00:00:36.059 --> 00:00:37.860
pretty soon they'll be just like they'll

00:00:37.860 --> 00:00:39.600
have Triads and then we'll have one big

00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:41.820
screen everybody will just be on the

00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:43.980
same place and I'll be over here by

00:00:43.980 --> 00:00:44.780
myself

00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:46.680
uh yeah

00:00:46.680 --> 00:00:48.600
so

00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:50.579
um I love it it's like the law of

00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:53.640
attraction or some kind of like cellular

00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.100
slime mold with individual cells that

00:00:56.100 --> 00:00:57.780
decided to just keep

00:00:57.780 --> 00:00:59.879
hooking up to each other and attaching

00:00:59.879 --> 00:01:03.000
and become one super organism eventually

00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:06.840
we'll just be one super organism

00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:10.159
not very easy to get around Walmart but

00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:12.420
so be it

00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:14.939
you realize this is my stick because I

00:01:14.939 --> 00:01:16.560
think we're waiting for a couple more

00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:18.119
people so

00:01:18.119 --> 00:01:22.200
I'm still high after the conference but

00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:23.939
um okay

00:01:23.939 --> 00:01:27.960
Bonnie you were a total badass

00:01:27.960 --> 00:01:31.140
yesterday now that I wasn't really the

00:01:31.140 --> 00:01:32.520
company I couldn't have pulled that off

00:01:32.520 --> 00:01:34.700
with

00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:38.340
we had talked about it beforehand and I

00:01:38.340 --> 00:01:40.020
said I was gonna be provocative and

00:01:40.020 --> 00:01:44.820
those guys know me so uh yeah so I I do

00:01:44.820 --> 00:01:46.560
have to say that it was a collaborative

00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:50.040
wow it's low okay hold on

00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:52.380
is it low on everybody's audio

00:01:52.380 --> 00:01:54.659
no so that's on your end I think Dave

00:01:54.659 --> 00:01:56.700
okay

00:01:56.700 --> 00:01:57.899
um

00:01:57.899 --> 00:02:00.899
so uh yeah it was a collaborative effort

00:02:00.899 --> 00:02:04.320
uh to pull off something something like

00:02:04.320 --> 00:02:06.899
that without it having to go south so I

00:02:06.899 --> 00:02:08.580
do want to say that

00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:10.020
okay

00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:12.300
um what we're gonna do today is I'm

00:02:12.300 --> 00:02:14.879
going to give a 10 minute a brief

00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:18.660
PowerPoint presentation to set the stage

00:02:18.660 --> 00:02:21.360
it's a little bit of a recap of the

00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.520
course content

00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:25.700
foreign

00:02:26.239 --> 00:02:28.800
fifteen or so and then we're going to do

00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.280
an exercise by an individual exercise

00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:34.140
now

00:02:34.140 --> 00:02:35.940
um

00:02:35.940 --> 00:02:39.900
you can do it individually or you know

00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:41.819
like close off your video or you can

00:02:41.819 --> 00:02:44.879
stay in the same the main room and do it

00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:46.379
and then

00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:48.420
speak with other people like

00:02:48.420 --> 00:02:50.400
um you know if you want to do your

00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.379
individual exercise with other people I

00:02:52.379 --> 00:02:56.459
suggest doing it uh individually and

00:02:56.459 --> 00:02:59.900
we're going to do that for half an hour

00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.519
then we'll come back after you finish

00:03:02.519 --> 00:03:03.959
your exercise you're going to go right

00:03:03.959 --> 00:03:06.599
into a breakout groups uh to talk about

00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.720
how you experienced and what you noticed

00:03:09.720 --> 00:03:12.599
during the exercise

00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.140
um and we'll do that for from 12 45 to 1

00:03:16.140 --> 00:03:20.580
30 so half an hour no 45 minutes

00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:22.920
and then we'll come back uh into the

00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:25.560
main room for the final discussion from

00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.220
1 30 to 2. okay does that make sense

00:03:29.220 --> 00:03:31.680
um all right so

00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:33.980
um I'm just going to

00:03:33.980 --> 00:03:36.599
do this

00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:41.220
little presentation it's quite short

00:03:41.220 --> 00:03:45.140
and uh

00:03:47.760 --> 00:03:52.280
can you all see this PowerPoint

00:03:52.440 --> 00:03:55.140
that down there

00:03:55.140 --> 00:03:58.819
and why is this not working hello hello

00:03:58.819 --> 00:04:01.440
oh because of this I gotta get rid of

00:04:01.440 --> 00:04:02.879
this

00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.080
move this over there

00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:09.560
on this over there

00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:17.760
hard floating beading controls okay can

00:04:17.760 --> 00:04:20.299
you see that

00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:26.040
I gotta put can you see that

00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.340
okay all right so

00:04:29.340 --> 00:04:31.340
um

00:04:32.340 --> 00:04:34.560
I was waiting for this book for a while

00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.680
because I read an excerpt from it and uh

00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.320
it's a book called Transformer by Nick

00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:42.540
Lane the Deep chemistry of life and

00:04:42.540 --> 00:04:44.220
death

00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:45.199
um

00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:46.979
and

00:04:46.979 --> 00:04:48.180
um

00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:50.880
in it he makes the distinction between

00:04:50.880 --> 00:04:53.520
flow and flux so that's why like we'll

00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:55.440
get to that in a second but this is what

00:04:55.440 --> 00:04:58.820
we're talking about memory as flux today

00:04:58.820 --> 00:05:01.919
and in the content we talked about it as

00:05:01.919 --> 00:05:04.800
assembling like a like a

00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:05.639
um

00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.600
a chef assembles a memory and over the

00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.780
last few sessions we've been doing some

00:05:12.780 --> 00:05:15.780
micro phenomenology and noticing yeah

00:05:15.780 --> 00:05:18.060
there's fragments and and here's a

00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:19.979
fragment coming from this part of my

00:05:19.979 --> 00:05:21.660
body oh and here's a fragment coming

00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:24.180
from that part of my body and and

00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:26.340
they're all kind of like flying in

00:05:26.340 --> 00:05:28.979
together to become a memory right so

00:05:28.979 --> 00:05:31.680
this is kind of the things we've been

00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:34.020
experiencing

00:05:34.020 --> 00:05:35.820
um

00:05:35.820 --> 00:05:38.639
lately does that does that does that

00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:43.259
sound right to you yeah so

00:05:43.259 --> 00:05:46.080
um now what we want to do is kind of

00:05:46.080 --> 00:05:48.419
step back a little instead of just

00:05:48.419 --> 00:05:50.460
seeing the fragments as they pop in and

00:05:50.460 --> 00:05:51.780
out

00:05:51.780 --> 00:05:56.699
to see it like a music a musical you

00:05:56.699 --> 00:05:58.680
know like in music

00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.880
where does the concerto ending begin

00:06:02.880 --> 00:06:06.780
like you're not just listening to the

00:06:06.780 --> 00:06:10.560
music at any moment in time you're

00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:14.280
experiencing it composed over time right

00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:17.340
so we want to get the sense now not just

00:06:17.340 --> 00:06:18.720
from like kind of like oh there's

00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:20.759
something and there's something but we

00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.120
want to try to feel what we would say is

00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.400
the flow

00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:28.620
but we're going to use this term flux

00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:31.080
because it's more accurate okay so if

00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:33.720
you at first see is a flow that's fine

00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.220
that's probably a word you're more

00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:37.740
familiar with but we don't want to just

00:06:37.740 --> 00:06:39.780
get what we've been doing is kind of

00:06:39.780 --> 00:06:41.880
like oh there's that no oh here's a note

00:06:41.880 --> 00:06:44.100
coming in here's a note that was the

00:06:44.100 --> 00:06:46.860
instructions these fragments but we want

00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:49.259
to try to feel

00:06:49.259 --> 00:06:52.680
the movement or the Rhythm the body is

00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:54.479
taking a rhythm now I think the last

00:06:54.479 --> 00:06:56.639
time if you were in the session the last

00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.500
time

00:06:58.500 --> 00:07:00.180
um

00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:02.880
I can see her but I can't remember her

00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:04.800
name which is typical

00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.419
um and she was going like oh and then I

00:07:06.419 --> 00:07:07.919
could like was like

00:07:07.919 --> 00:07:09.960
it was coming from here and from there

00:07:09.960 --> 00:07:12.120
and from there my body so she was really

00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.819
just doing the Rhythm right

00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:17.639
um and so uh some of you have already

00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.819
started to do that

00:07:20.819 --> 00:07:22.819
um

00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:28.139
so this is this is what the framing of

00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:31.080
the X the the the micro phenomenonology

00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:33.060
how we're going to watch this in our

00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:34.800
body and notice okay and we're going to

00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.880
do an exercise that will help us

00:07:38.880 --> 00:07:39.860
um

00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:42.539
catalyze or activate these for this

00:07:42.539 --> 00:07:44.400
process

00:07:44.400 --> 00:07:49.319
now so we talked about come on come on

00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:51.120
very happy

00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:53.280
we talked about uh there's different

00:07:53.280 --> 00:07:57.720
types of memory banks there's procedural

00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.720
uh there's propositional so this is more

00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.940
like when you get to the narrative and

00:08:02.940 --> 00:08:04.860
some of you said well then I had to like

00:08:04.860 --> 00:08:08.940
go back to like uh what would what kinds

00:08:08.940 --> 00:08:10.620
of things would have been in the bedroom

00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:12.720
you know you get more into your head so

00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.819
this is like writing the story behind

00:08:14.819 --> 00:08:16.020
the music

00:08:16.020 --> 00:08:17.819
and then there's semantic and

00:08:17.819 --> 00:08:19.979
abstraction

00:08:19.979 --> 00:08:22.560
um which is like the notation and then

00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:27.240
we have participatory so your memory uh

00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:31.259
might be of what was going around you

00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:34.140
who was going around what what other

00:08:34.140 --> 00:08:36.959
uh people were involved and we noticed

00:08:36.959 --> 00:08:40.140
the different instructions uh the

00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:42.659
different instructions produce different

00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:45.060
types Drew on the different kind of

00:08:45.060 --> 00:08:47.040
memory banks right so some people are

00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:49.320
surprised oh I didn't see anyone around

00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.000
and then you give a different kind of

00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.459
instruction and you get a memory that

00:08:53.459 --> 00:08:55.920
draws more from the sense of

00:08:55.920 --> 00:08:59.220
participation and then uh this is it

00:08:59.220 --> 00:09:02.040
called extended memory

00:09:02.040 --> 00:09:02.940
um

00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:04.920
it's not going to be that useful in our

00:09:04.920 --> 00:09:07.560
exercise but that if you did this

00:09:07.560 --> 00:09:09.540
exercise and then you you went up and

00:09:09.540 --> 00:09:11.820
you got a journal to see what you

00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:14.580
actually felt 12 years ago that would be

00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:17.040
extended memory that your memories in an

00:09:17.040 --> 00:09:19.200
external artifacts

00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:25.200
or or okay so now what's what's are the

00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:27.660
fragments what are the notes well the

00:09:27.660 --> 00:09:29.700
notes are like mood

00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:31.500
some of the things what are you going to

00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:33.660
notice in this exercise is what is the

00:09:33.660 --> 00:09:35.100
mood

00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:37.740
um and and

00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:41.279
um some people showed with their bodies

00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:43.380
they gestured when they were recovering

00:09:43.380 --> 00:09:45.420
certain memories that it was like they

00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:47.880
go like this like it's just it first

00:09:47.880 --> 00:09:50.760
starts with a mood

00:09:50.760 --> 00:09:52.980
um it and then sometimes it's more like

00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:56.519
a deep affect signature

00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:58.019
um

00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:00.300
sometimes it starts with an image oh I

00:10:00.300 --> 00:10:02.880
see that right there and then now the

00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:05.700
image grounds or centers

00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:07.980
the growth of the memory so we're trying

00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:11.100
to figure out what is the first Salient

00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:13.680
feature like the seed then it usually

00:10:13.680 --> 00:10:15.959
there's a seed that anchors the memory

00:10:15.959 --> 00:10:18.959
and then the it kind of like Associates

00:10:18.959 --> 00:10:21.360
the fragments right

00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.600
let's start with image and then the mood

00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.580
comes

00:10:26.580 --> 00:10:27.240
um

00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:28.380
okay

00:10:28.380 --> 00:10:31.380
so then sometimes it's a story sometimes

00:10:31.380 --> 00:10:33.000
you have to go way out get into the

00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:36.420
story the storyline and

00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:38.720
um in order to

00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:42.839
associate the mood or the affect

00:10:42.839 --> 00:10:45.060
so it's not always bottom up or top down

00:10:45.060 --> 00:10:48.000
sometimes it's middle out

00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:49.980
um then Association you might notice

00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:51.839
that you got to the memory because you

00:10:51.839 --> 00:10:55.260
started here and that kind of drew a

00:10:55.260 --> 00:10:57.540
line to over there oh and now you can

00:10:57.540 --> 00:10:59.820
get the memory of over there right so

00:10:59.820 --> 00:11:01.800
there are these kind of associations

00:11:01.800 --> 00:11:05.240
that you can see are helping you

00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.860
constellate the memory so this is all

00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:09.480
part of the flow these are not

00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:11.940
necessarily in the order that they come

00:11:11.940 --> 00:11:13.860
these are the kinds of things we'll be

00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:15.420
looking for

00:11:15.420 --> 00:11:18.300
sometimes there are signs

00:11:18.300 --> 00:11:21.300
um I'm not sure what that one means

00:11:21.300 --> 00:11:24.120
um but I think that uh

00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.459
that might be useful word

00:11:26.459 --> 00:11:27.420
um and then sometimes there's

00:11:27.420 --> 00:11:30.240
imagination you know you might find that

00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.720
you're actually filling in Lost material

00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:38.459
and you can tell you're imagining it

00:11:38.459 --> 00:11:40.500
um and that's a and that's a very

00:11:40.500 --> 00:11:42.240
important thing to notice because you're

00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.100
out of the realm of memory and you're

00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:45.899
into the realm of imagination which

00:11:45.899 --> 00:11:47.820
we'll talk about in the next module so

00:11:47.820 --> 00:11:51.360
feeling that toggle

00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:52.620
um

00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:56.060
is important in the work

00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:00.360
and then there's improvisation where

00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:04.040
um it's like imagination but instead

00:12:04.040 --> 00:12:08.720
you're just instead of imagining uh

00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:11.700
material in your memory you start to let

00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:13.500
your memory just go all over the place

00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:16.079
so it's no longer serving much of a

00:12:16.079 --> 00:12:18.060
function in the instruction but you

00:12:18.060 --> 00:12:20.940
notice that if you let it go all kinds

00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:22.680
of things in your memory bank will start

00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:24.300
to associate and it feels more like

00:12:24.300 --> 00:12:27.000
improvisation the most Can You Feel the

00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:28.740
difference between those two

00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:31.320
so imagination you can tell you're like

00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.260
adding material that's in holes or

00:12:34.260 --> 00:12:36.720
spaces of your memory was improvisation

00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.779
as you kind of just I wrote that wrong

00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:43.320
is that I improv that that the spelling

00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:46.500
of that is that you start to like the

00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:48.180
memories are just coming they don't

00:12:48.180 --> 00:12:50.160
really make that much sense they're no

00:12:50.160 --> 00:12:53.820
longer serving The Prompt uh but it's

00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:55.920
kind of interesting to see see that

00:12:55.920 --> 00:12:58.139
happen

00:12:58.139 --> 00:13:00.720
and then there's this thing I call a

00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.959
repertoire a repertoire is a memory you

00:13:03.959 --> 00:13:04.800
have

00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:07.139
It's associated with repetition because

00:13:07.139 --> 00:13:09.480
you told the story over and over and

00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:10.399
over again

00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.620
oftentimes to the same people

00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:16.079
um so a lot of the stories I teach in

00:13:16.079 --> 00:13:17.160
the school

00:13:17.160 --> 00:13:20.399
they're not really

00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.740
I'm not really some of them are you can

00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:24.000
tell the difference when I'm digging

00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.700
into a memory now um coming from the

00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:28.200
memory process but a lot of them are

00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.000
stories that pulled over and over and

00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.440
over again so they usually are funny

00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.180
they come from punch lines that have

00:13:33.180 --> 00:13:36.240
worked well in the past and so you might

00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.339
in this exercise notice that you have a

00:13:38.339 --> 00:13:41.279
repertoire a lot of repertoires around

00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.740
how why'd you guys first meet and then

00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:45.899
you you and your husband you go into it

00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:48.300
like it's the story gets perfected over

00:13:48.300 --> 00:13:51.660
time right uh so these are these are

00:13:51.660 --> 00:13:54.839
interesting ones to remember if they if

00:13:54.839 --> 00:13:57.899
they infect your memory process

00:13:57.899 --> 00:13:58.740
um

00:13:58.740 --> 00:14:01.200
um and I mean there's other things I

00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:02.639
could have put on this list but these

00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:04.680
are the kinds of things that people

00:14:04.680 --> 00:14:07.740
mostly uh categories of of different

00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:10.519
kinds of uh

00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:12.480
experiences that are a little different

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.420
in inside this category of memory memory

00:14:15.420 --> 00:14:17.339
does everybody understand is there any

00:14:17.339 --> 00:14:19.680
questions

00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:21.240
there's other things you know you

00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.279
something might happen in your exercise

00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.380
where it's not one of these words you

00:14:25.380 --> 00:14:27.660
can just have your own own words so let

00:14:27.660 --> 00:14:31.740
me let me just stop share and uh yeah

00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:34.160
Sam

00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.560
yeah I'm particularly curious about the

00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:39.240
improvisation

00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.639
um part because I guess I'm curious like

00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:43.620
what aspect of the self is doing the

00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.660
improvising and is it that there are

00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:47.339
just kind of chains of Association that

00:14:47.339 --> 00:14:48.959
are flowing that

00:14:48.959 --> 00:14:51.600
um come from a certain like yeah what's

00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.720
doing the improvising in US yeah leads

00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.160
from one to the next

00:14:56.160 --> 00:14:59.399
well so first we have to notice we want

00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:00.959
to notice that we're having an

00:15:00.959 --> 00:15:03.600
experience of improvisation and so are

00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.120
you thinking of an experience of of what

00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:09.380
we would call improvisation

00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:11.820
I guess I mean I'm just thinking about

00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:15.540
like reverie or Daydream say if but if a

00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:17.880
reverie of of say memory that leads from

00:15:17.880 --> 00:15:19.740
one memory to another and it has this

00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:23.279
flow but I imagine there's some sort of

00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.320
something that's leading from one thing

00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:27.959
to the next one here I'm wondering if

00:15:27.959 --> 00:15:29.399
it's directive thinking that's

00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:31.519
improvising or if it's something more

00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.620
point of doing an exercise to figure out

00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:36.899
where it comes from

00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:39.300
um so we started by using fragments and

00:15:39.300 --> 00:15:43.199
people could tell like first first

00:15:43.199 --> 00:15:45.600
if you slow the memory down first I felt

00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.399
it in here it was more like a mood and

00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:49.260
then Sandra will use her as an example

00:15:49.260 --> 00:15:51.180
and they quickly become she's really

00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:54.180
good at Imaging and her mind space or

00:15:54.180 --> 00:15:56.160
inner eye and now she's you know can see

00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:57.899
that was there and my mother had this

00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:00.600
cup and but she could tell it starts

00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.060
here and then it's it's energy flow to

00:16:03.060 --> 00:16:05.279
here it's all flow it's actually gonna

00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:08.160
it's flux but

00:16:08.160 --> 00:16:10.019
um I wouldn't say that it's I mean

00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:13.139
there's some deep principles in the flux

00:16:13.139 --> 00:16:16.440
um but I wouldn't say that the flux is

00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.139
this got the same direction as everyone

00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:21.120
else Just Like Music

00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.160
has a structure and then within those

00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:25.920
structures there's all kinds of ways

00:16:25.920 --> 00:16:28.019
that you turn it around so the musical

00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:29.880
thing is

00:16:29.880 --> 00:16:31.860
um but what the description of that you

00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:34.500
know in the course content I said is

00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:37.139
memory is not well understood I never

00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:39.660
hear the plasma teachers talk about

00:16:39.660 --> 00:16:43.440
doing a phenomenology on memory itself

00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.240
um most people I think would just say

00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:49.920
it's useful for this concept of flow

00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:52.740
um but and and then and the Neuroscience

00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:54.720
is really up about it there's

00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:56.880
nothing very interesting in it you know

00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:59.279
because we're forced to talk about

00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.740
where's the memory stored except the

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:03.420
memory is actually not stored anywhere

00:17:03.420 --> 00:17:06.179
where the neuroscientists know that but

00:17:06.179 --> 00:17:08.160
when we talk about we use psychological

00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.079
terms we have to say well where's the

00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.520
memory stored

00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:15.059
and there's nothing really good uh yet

00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:18.720
until we finish our monograph on the new

00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.939
theory of the body uh to put this

00:17:20.939 --> 00:17:22.980
together but

00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:24.839
um yeah but I'm glad that that word

00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:27.360
interested you because it's not

00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:30.299
imagination and of course in general if

00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:31.740
you're daydreaming it's probably both

00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:34.140
imagination Association and

00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:36.539
improvisation but there are times when

00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:41.340
you just feel like you're taking over by

00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:42.120
um

00:17:42.120 --> 00:17:44.760
memories and the thing is it gets worse

00:17:44.760 --> 00:17:46.799
when you get old when you get old

00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:48.720
there's it's I would say there's

00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.120
something like and you can see it really

00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:54.059
when you're really old about dementia

00:17:54.059 --> 00:17:56.520
I'm I'm you know I'm such a subtle

00:17:56.520 --> 00:17:59.520
sensor that I'm I'm actually not old yet

00:17:59.520 --> 00:18:01.500
but I can tell

00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:03.900
um you can get into these things where

00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:06.419
there's just there's you're just Revis

00:18:06.419 --> 00:18:08.580
you're just visited by memories you know

00:18:08.580 --> 00:18:11.460
their memories they feel very passive

00:18:11.460 --> 00:18:14.039
and and

00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.260
it's like a little Jazz thing because

00:18:16.260 --> 00:18:18.059
there's no

00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:20.580
obvious reason why this is following

00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:22.919
that or it's not like a psychological

00:18:22.919 --> 00:18:25.799
trauma and people with dementia this is

00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:27.600
what they do they just go from one thing

00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:30.860
in the past to the next and they and and

00:18:30.860 --> 00:18:33.840
it's all kind of a made-up world but

00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.700
it's not like a world that's made up

00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:38.220
like a false belief because there's no

00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:42.059
it's not threaded at all uh so this can

00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:44.760
give us some insight into this into this

00:18:44.760 --> 00:18:45.780
category

00:18:45.780 --> 00:18:49.320
now I would recommend uh you not try to

00:18:49.320 --> 00:18:52.140
get into improv in this exercise you try

00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:55.140
to do the exercise as instructed and if

00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:57.480
the Improv happens then you'd be curious

00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.059
about it okay because the exercise is

00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:03.179
not as fun as what I just described uh

00:19:03.179 --> 00:19:04.980
but we need to be a little disciplined

00:19:04.980 --> 00:19:06.600
here

00:19:06.600 --> 00:19:10.980
okay uh uh so are there any other

00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:12.720
questions uh I haven't finished the

00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.340
presentation so let me finish the

00:19:14.340 --> 00:19:17.160
presentation and then we can get an idea

00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.440
of what we're doing here

00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:20.460
um

00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:22.140
great question

00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.299
we don't do anything that fun here Sam

00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:26.940
because we're still on our basics

00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:30.600
because we need Basics before uh we move

00:19:30.600 --> 00:19:33.179
ahead but yeah

00:19:33.179 --> 00:19:33.840
um

00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:36.660
okay so

00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:37.679
um

00:19:37.679 --> 00:19:39.600
um hide

00:19:39.600 --> 00:19:43.500
hide hide floating meeting controls okay

00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:45.660
so

00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:47.720
um

00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.880
flux versus flow

00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.600
um I don't want this definition to ruin

00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:58.200
your ability to feel the flow

00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.299
um but we're gonna but I want to show

00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:02.039
you where we're gonna go with that so

00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.900
don't get too hung up when you do the

00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:09.020
exercise to find the flux find the flow

00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:13.200
so there's this so this is what uh Nick

00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.720
Lane says uh Nick Lane is someone who's

00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.799
working like uh Mike 11 uh at the he has

00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.520
a theory of why life is inevitable from

00:20:23.520 --> 00:20:25.020
physics

00:20:25.020 --> 00:20:28.440
that physics inevitably by following its

00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.840
own laws will produce life in a certain

00:20:30.840 --> 00:20:33.299
environment so he he's a theoretic

00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:35.340
theoretical

00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:39.840
biologist studying the origins of life

00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:43.200
um so he says flux is a form of flow but

00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.660
with one crucial difference

00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:48.660
water can flow in a river or traffic

00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:50.700
down a street

00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:53.520
what goes in at one end and what comes

00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:56.220
out at the other is the same thing water

00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:59.880
or carbs so that's flow

00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.580
in Biochemistry flux is the flow of

00:21:02.580 --> 00:21:05.400
things that are transformed along the

00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:06.480
way

00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.640
imagine a car entering the street let's

00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.160
say it's a VW Beetle no sooner has it

00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.980
gone 10 yards down then there's a

00:21:13.980 --> 00:21:15.539
blinding flash you know the abruptly

00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.880
turns into a Porsche and then another

00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.580
Flash and it becomes a Volvo bang it's a

00:21:20.580 --> 00:21:23.940
white van zap now it's a minibus flash

00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.980
it's a tractor which leaves the street

00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:29.039
okay so this is what flux is like it's

00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.940
flow but at junctures

00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:36.059
things are transformed the straight but

00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:37.919
the strangest thing about this street is

00:21:37.919 --> 00:21:39.900
that the same thing keeps happening only

00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:42.900
VW Beetles ever enter the street only

00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.539
tractors of relief

00:21:45.539 --> 00:21:48.059
of course that's just this street take a

00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:49.500
look at the street around the corner

00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:52.260
there you'll see only Vespa scooters

00:21:52.260 --> 00:21:54.539
entering transforming into Harley

00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:57.059
motorbikes only after a series of

00:21:57.059 --> 00:21:59.640
Transformations along the way and just

00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.980
across town There's a canal where canoes

00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:04.679
change into speed boats can you see why

00:22:04.679 --> 00:22:06.179
this is a great

00:22:06.179 --> 00:22:12.980
uh a great term for memory

00:22:13.620 --> 00:22:15.900
this is a this is a strange word world

00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:21.480
of metabolic flux and uh it's also

00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.940
describes the up hierarchy

00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:29.460
uh which is the Strange World of memory

00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:33.240
so as the memory flows through the up

00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:34.799
hierarchy there are actual

00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:37.260
Transformations and we talked about it

00:22:37.260 --> 00:22:38.820
in the first session that these

00:22:38.820 --> 00:22:40.820
transformations

00:22:40.820 --> 00:22:43.919
serve the the need and the present so

00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:47.640
they transform so subtly you don't you

00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.039
see it as well but it's actually being

00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:54.059
updated to serve the request of the

00:22:54.059 --> 00:22:56.419
present

00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.320
now this is something for you know if

00:23:04.320 --> 00:23:06.720
you're doing uh the micro phenomenology

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.159
of memory uh this is a deep

00:23:11.159 --> 00:23:14.100
to be able to feel these Transformations

00:23:14.100 --> 00:23:15.840
along the way so what do we mean by

00:23:15.840 --> 00:23:18.600
Transformations right now all we we need

00:23:18.600 --> 00:23:20.220
to think about them is the

00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:24.059
transformation between mood and an image

00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:27.659
and a story okay so for right now that's

00:23:27.659 --> 00:23:29.520
all we have to think about in terms of

00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:32.000
transformation

00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:38.880
are there any questions

00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.179
um this is just seeding uh your your

00:23:42.179 --> 00:23:44.900
experience

00:23:45.360 --> 00:23:47.159
okay what we're going to do for the

00:23:47.159 --> 00:23:49.080
exercise

00:23:49.080 --> 00:23:52.020
and I and I started I've started the

00:23:52.020 --> 00:23:54.360
exercise for myself so I'll show you uh

00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:56.039
give you a little example of how it goes

00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:58.919
is we want to have either on a computer

00:23:58.919 --> 00:24:01.620
or pen and paper is much better in this

00:24:01.620 --> 00:24:03.179
case

00:24:03.179 --> 00:24:03.980
um

00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:09.320
you want to have a timeline okay so

00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:12.720
notice that the timeline is one of these

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.120
prompts that your memory is going to

00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:16.640
have to

00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.100
satisfy the needs of this prompt you're

00:24:20.100 --> 00:24:21.659
not going to say oh this is how memory

00:24:21.659 --> 00:24:23.460
happens it happens in five year

00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:27.960
intervals no you it's already primed to

00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:29.880
satisfy

00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.340
the needs of this present prompt so all

00:24:32.340 --> 00:24:34.559
these words should be familiar to you if

00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:36.659
you've been keeping up

00:24:36.659 --> 00:24:38.640
so you want to have this is your

00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.039
timeline

00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.760
uh you want to go by five years uh The

00:24:44.760 --> 00:24:46.679
Five-Year thing sometimes is a lot

00:24:46.679 --> 00:24:48.659
crowded and sometimes there's not so

00:24:48.659 --> 00:24:51.120
much it doesn't matter

00:24:51.120 --> 00:24:54.080
um and

00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:57.000
you want to resist starting with the

00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:59.280
story because a lot of times like if

00:24:59.280 --> 00:25:01.320
you've done these exercises before and

00:25:01.320 --> 00:25:04.380
these like workshops it's not a

00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:09.299
storyline okay it's not a storyline

00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:12.299
it looks like a storyline and if if we

00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:13.980
were more creative it would be just

00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:16.980
you'll see how wise not a storyline it's

00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:18.659
not a storyline you want to start okay

00:25:18.659 --> 00:25:20.460
five this is how I started five years

00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:22.559
old

00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:23.659
um

00:25:23.659 --> 00:25:27.659
uh I had to figure out

00:25:27.659 --> 00:25:30.360
um location we noticed this last time

00:25:30.360 --> 00:25:34.440
that that we almost always store stories

00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:38.520
by place because they memories

00:25:38.520 --> 00:25:41.480
our exacted place cell

00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:46.020
s in in our nervous system so this may

00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:48.240
not be true for you but I had I really I

00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.120
had to realize that

00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:54.720
um I was still in my grandmother's house

00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.900
so that set the scene once I got that

00:25:57.900 --> 00:26:00.659
all right so that would be

00:26:00.659 --> 00:26:02.340
um I didn't write that but I should have

00:26:02.340 --> 00:26:03.840
wrote that place

00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:06.600
if that was my first anchor that should

00:26:06.600 --> 00:26:09.059
be written on this but once I did that

00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:13.020
my father was so freaking Salient like

00:26:13.020 --> 00:26:16.740
it was really surprising to me that my

00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:18.659
mother wasn't there and I actually

00:26:18.659 --> 00:26:21.419
looked for her and I didn't I didn't

00:26:21.419 --> 00:26:23.340
want to bring her up with my mind but

00:26:23.340 --> 00:26:26.220
she was not Salient and it surprised me

00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:27.600
because I thought it was five years old

00:26:27.600 --> 00:26:29.159
my father went to work I was always

00:26:29.159 --> 00:26:30.900
hanging out with my mom like she was

00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:33.120
taking care of us so you see the idea

00:26:33.120 --> 00:26:35.220
the external idea

00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:37.799
it wasn't it's not what was happening

00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:39.000
okay

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.400
so my father was sailing I put a circle

00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.220
around him because it comes came from

00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:47.640
the inside my episodic memory it came

00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.320
from the inside

00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:52.440
and then oh and then I started he was so

00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.779
Salient I noticed my mom is not in there

00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:57.299
unless I actually put her there

00:26:57.299 --> 00:26:59.880
and then I said well what else is in

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.720
this and and then I thought

00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.440
um so this was a little more like uh a

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.120
little different kind of work and I

00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:11.039
thought well what animals did I have I

00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:12.840
can't remember being a child and not

00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:16.080
having animals and so Birds came up

00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:18.419
and I have two stories here one's the

00:27:18.419 --> 00:27:21.000
story The Blue Jays it's a very very

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.659
Salient story in my early childhood I

00:27:24.659 --> 00:27:26.220
remember

00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:27.360
um

00:27:27.360 --> 00:27:29.940
um sitting on the screened-in porch on

00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:31.740
the third level of my grandmother's

00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:34.020
house watching my father and his brother

00:27:34.020 --> 00:27:37.140
shoot Blue Jays and it was extremely

00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:39.779
confusing to me because I love the Blue

00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:41.100
Jays

00:27:41.100 --> 00:27:45.059
and I had this parakeet okay so now my

00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:48.840
jeez my the stuff is very salient

00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:50.940
I try to set that aside a little because

00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:53.220
the the bird thing is very Salient and

00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:58.020
I'm I'm like where's my mom uh again I'm

00:27:58.020 --> 00:27:59.820
not sure I I'm doing it very gently

00:27:59.820 --> 00:28:01.320
because if she's not there I don't want

00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:03.240
her to be there and she so my sister

00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.120
comes in but my sister's not like inside

00:28:06.120 --> 00:28:08.700
me I I put the line because she's kind

00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.039
of like I know she's there in this

00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.159
constellation but in this case this

00:28:14.159 --> 00:28:16.559
morning doing the exercise she comes

00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:19.500
she's outside of this this salience

00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:21.360
salience

00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:23.039
you can have you'll have your own

00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.020
notation the way you notate it but

00:28:25.020 --> 00:28:27.480
that's why she's like I wouldn't draw it

00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:31.380
like that and then my mom comes and the

00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:33.720
only thing I can remember doing with my

00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.000
mom is we used to go to soda shop after

00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.600
we took my sister to school

00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:42.720
um and I can remember sitting there for

00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:44.700
some reason only can see myself on the

00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:48.260
right side of her at this soda shop and

00:28:48.260 --> 00:28:50.520
uh you know it was one of those soda

00:28:50.520 --> 00:28:52.799
shop pharmacies and I know the corner

00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.220
that it's on so again Place very very uh

00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:59.340
significant and

00:28:59.340 --> 00:29:01.500
um I put a question there because it's

00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:03.779
just odd to me that she's

00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:05.159
so

00:29:05.159 --> 00:29:07.260
uh

00:29:07.260 --> 00:29:09.120
not important

00:29:09.120 --> 00:29:12.000
in this one moment of a memory exercise

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.659
for me so

00:29:15.840 --> 00:29:16.679
um

00:29:16.679 --> 00:29:19.260
so this is what we're trying to do in

00:29:19.260 --> 00:29:20.820
terms of we're not trying to tell a

00:29:20.820 --> 00:29:23.580
story we're trying to notice

00:29:23.580 --> 00:29:28.620
the flow the composition from now could

00:29:28.620 --> 00:29:30.899
be different from you you could you know

00:29:30.899 --> 00:29:33.480
this is just one of many

00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:35.940
but these are the kinds of things we're

00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:41.059
trying to track on on this timeline

00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:47.399
you don't have to go in order you might

00:29:47.399 --> 00:29:49.679
find that oh

00:29:49.679 --> 00:29:51.720
that thing was resolved when I was 25

00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:54.120
and you might want to go up to 25 and

00:29:54.120 --> 00:29:56.419
just follow the natural order of of of

00:29:56.419 --> 00:29:59.580
what's going on but something like this

00:29:59.580 --> 00:30:01.860
is what we're after

00:30:01.860 --> 00:30:02.460
um

00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:04.860
and let me make sure we're kind of

00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:07.980
running out of time here but that's okay

00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:10.620
um does that make sense

00:30:10.620 --> 00:30:12.659
because if you've been here doing yeah

00:30:12.659 --> 00:30:14.820
doing some of the exercises yeah you got

00:30:14.820 --> 00:30:17.340
to get just got to get started and it's

00:30:17.340 --> 00:30:19.980
very much like the other exercises

00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:23.460
um and draw out whatever way your

00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:26.520
experiences that's what happened to me

00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:29.460
um uh and even if you just have little

00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.159
words then when you reflect on it

00:30:32.159 --> 00:30:35.880
afterwards you can you can say

00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.679
I didn't you know you can say this was

00:30:37.679 --> 00:30:39.779
Salient because my father Salient you

00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:41.580
don't have to do it the way I did but

00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:44.399
this is this is kind of what we're we're

00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:47.059
looking for

00:30:49.080 --> 00:30:51.659
the uh uh Phoebe

00:30:51.659 --> 00:30:56.159
so are you saying that I'll go to when I

00:30:56.159 --> 00:30:59.399
was 10 when that area and just what

00:30:59.399 --> 00:31:01.260
memories come up during

00:31:01.260 --> 00:31:04.159
my that age round being 10 and then

00:31:04.159 --> 00:31:06.899
settle yourself into attend

00:31:06.899 --> 00:31:08.460
10 and then

00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:10.559
all right

00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.860
and then as soon as you start there for

00:31:13.860 --> 00:31:16.200
whatever reason you did some something

00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:20.520
will have to happen maybe you say

00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:23.279
I was in I probably was in fourth grade

00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.100
okay so that story right that's the

00:31:26.100 --> 00:31:27.720
first thing that came in the first thing

00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:29.760
that oriented was a story

00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:33.659
okay and then you might see

00:31:33.659 --> 00:31:37.620
the school room that's place okay so

00:31:37.620 --> 00:31:40.559
that's an image then something might

00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.440
come out misses so and so my t-shirt oh

00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:46.140
my God I have this feeling and I can see

00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:49.740
her right so as soon as you go somewhere

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:51.779
the very first thing is going to be

00:31:51.779 --> 00:31:54.059
something and you're not gonna don't

00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:57.659
wait till a memory comes because the

00:31:57.659 --> 00:32:00.179
route to getting there starts with the

00:32:00.179 --> 00:32:03.120
first thing that comes

00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:05.460
right and then what comes next and

00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:06.960
sometimes you're surprised that

00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:08.760
something didn't come like my mom that

00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:11.100
was like me going like well I know my

00:32:11.100 --> 00:32:13.740
mom was there but

00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:16.020
that was me thinking something in the

00:32:16.020 --> 00:32:18.899
present but nothing was really

00:32:18.899 --> 00:32:21.299
coming through yeah

00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:23.720
so

00:32:25.919 --> 00:32:28.500
so my question was just when we're

00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:30.779
making this kind of timeline are we

00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:32.399
specifically going in five year chunks

00:32:32.399 --> 00:32:33.600
so I'm looking at one and five and then

00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:35.340
when I'm 10 not like trying to

00:32:35.340 --> 00:32:37.980
reconstruct a thing all the ages in

00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:38.940
between

00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:42.659
no you you you can start anywhere I

00:32:42.659 --> 00:32:44.640
would I would start early though you

00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:46.679
know ten five

00:32:46.679 --> 00:32:48.840
um and then go wherever you feel like

00:32:48.840 --> 00:32:53.399
going okay but try to

00:32:53.399 --> 00:32:55.980
then when you're done try to go

00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:57.779
somewhere and then think in terms of

00:32:57.779 --> 00:33:00.899
fives unless you just not normally go

00:33:00.899 --> 00:33:01.980
somewhere else

00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:04.020
uh it's different for different people

00:33:04.020 --> 00:33:07.740
so and the idea is to like just have an

00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:09.659
associational

00:33:09.659 --> 00:33:13.140
flux from where wherever we are not the

00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:16.019
idea is to let the process happen but to

00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:17.899
notice

00:33:17.899 --> 00:33:21.140
what Transformations are happening story

00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:24.419
mood image

00:33:24.419 --> 00:33:27.179
but there's no imagination zoom in and

00:33:27.179 --> 00:33:29.100
stay with one

00:33:29.100 --> 00:33:31.860
um like one episode don't if you're

00:33:31.860 --> 00:33:33.299
there for the whole time you're there

00:33:33.299 --> 00:33:35.760
for a long time but don't try to any of

00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:38.820
that okay um there was not much else

00:33:38.820 --> 00:33:40.860
Salient everything else in my memory

00:33:40.860 --> 00:33:43.200
that I shared I'd have to force myself

00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.919
to reconstruct

00:33:45.919 --> 00:33:48.720
my father was so Salient and then the

00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:52.679
birds thing was afterwards uh anyways so

00:33:52.679 --> 00:33:55.140
that's what that's what we're trying to

00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:56.279
do

00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.480
um

00:33:57.480 --> 00:33:59.519
okay

00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.760
um so I'll yeah Zach can you share can

00:34:02.760 --> 00:34:05.640
you share the list of types of things in

00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:06.659
the memory

00:34:06.659 --> 00:34:09.300
yeah so I'll be in the main room

00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:10.200
um because you're not going into

00:34:10.200 --> 00:34:12.899
breakouts and I'll put it on the screen

00:34:12.899 --> 00:34:14.760
okay I'll put all those things on the

00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:16.080
screen

00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:18.599
um just so yeah that because

00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:20.280
the important thing is to notice that

00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.679
it's switched and then maybe you can

00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:25.260
just use the same tags or something that

00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:26.760
everyone else is switching so you don't

00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.359
have to work so hard at uh

00:34:30.359 --> 00:34:32.280
having a long description of what the

00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:34.260
switch was

00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:37.440
um now don't be worried because when you

00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:39.960
go back to share you'll remember if

00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:41.879
you're noticing like I did this this

00:34:41.879 --> 00:34:43.980
morning I remembered

00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.080
what I went through so

00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:50.159
you just want little you know

00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.560
little bullets so that you can you can

00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:54.720
share it'll be in your you'll be able to

00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:58.099
recreate what was happening

00:34:59.160 --> 00:35:01.440
all right so we're going to do that till

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:05.280
uh 10 after one

00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.640
and uh uh yeah half an hour right ten

00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:10.260
after one

00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:12.000
um I'll be here if you have questions

00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.220
and I will share my screen and leave

00:35:14.220 --> 00:35:18.859
that image on the screen

00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:23.160
foreign

00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.380
okay

00:35:41.700 --> 00:35:44.960
got this

00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.280
foreign

01:03:41.040 --> 01:03:43.140
okay a couple more minutes if you want

01:03:43.140 --> 01:03:44.940
to take a bio Break

01:03:44.940 --> 01:03:46.500
um come back

01:03:46.500 --> 01:03:49.880
at 10 after

01:04:28.140 --> 01:04:30.440
foreign

01:04:47.710 --> 01:04:50.789
[Music]

01:04:52.640 --> 01:04:55.920
Phoebe and David in one room Katie and

01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:58.680
Schult in another

01:04:58.680 --> 01:05:01.799
um and then I will

01:05:01.799 --> 01:05:04.380
so you guys will be in the main room and

01:05:04.380 --> 01:05:06.720
you can just talk amongst yourselves

01:05:06.720 --> 01:05:10.079
okay is that okay

01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:12.839
else we're going to breakout room four

01:05:12.839 --> 01:05:16.940
uh 25 minutes let's see

01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:19.260
assigned manually

01:05:19.260 --> 01:05:22.020
let's see

01:05:22.020 --> 01:05:25.160
uh let's see

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:33.319
I went to the sun manually hold on

01:05:34.440 --> 01:05:37.940
okay let's see

01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:41.960
we'll have

01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:43.260
[Music]

01:05:43.260 --> 01:05:45.260
um

01:05:48.059 --> 01:05:52.920
one two we're going to have

01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:56.720
no I'm going to have

01:05:57.599 --> 01:06:00.440
sewing

01:06:00.540 --> 01:06:03.260
hold on

01:06:03.540 --> 01:06:05.700
uh

01:06:05.700 --> 01:06:08.339
oh and

01:06:08.339 --> 01:06:11.460
really okay okay I'm going to move to

01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:14.400
two and

01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:17.760
then I'm going to this I know it's not

01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.440
talking to myself because it's very

01:06:23.640 --> 01:06:27.059
all right all right now it's working

01:06:27.059 --> 01:06:29.460
sign we have those two are together

01:06:29.460 --> 01:06:33.000
already we're going to have a one with

01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:35.400
three

01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:37.859
uh

01:06:37.859 --> 01:06:42.680
okay uh options 25 minutes

01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:46.079
help each other out

01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:48.900
enjoy the company and have and enjoy

01:06:48.900 --> 01:06:51.059
your conversations and make sure I did

01:06:51.059 --> 01:06:53.900
this right hold on

01:06:54.180 --> 01:06:56.780
okay

01:06:56.960 --> 01:07:03.310
[Music]

01:07:10.440 --> 01:07:11.880
I'm just gonna head to the washroom for

01:07:11.880 --> 01:07:13.200
a second we'll be right back yeah yeah

01:07:13.200 --> 01:07:17.119
you guys are in your own room so

01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.020
okay so I'll start talking oh no no no

01:07:31.020 --> 01:07:34.200
no you guys talk

01:07:34.200 --> 01:07:37.460
they're amongst each other you and David

01:07:37.460 --> 01:07:41.220
yeah and Katie and Joel okay got it okay

01:07:41.220 --> 01:07:43.559
so Zoe some people will start coming

01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:44.880
because it's the top of the hour and

01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.039
I'll talk to them

01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:48.359
got it

01:07:48.359 --> 01:07:52.220
sorry no that's okay

01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:57.839
Cheryl Cheryl good what happened to you

01:07:57.839 --> 01:08:01.980
I was alone in breakout room one

01:08:01.980 --> 01:08:04.440
oh cause maybe Zach I wonder if where

01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:06.440
did Zach go

01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:08.660
Zach died

01:08:08.660 --> 01:08:13.740
okay so I'm going to move you to

01:08:13.740 --> 01:08:16.740
uh

01:08:18.460 --> 01:08:21.609
[Music]

01:08:22.380 --> 01:08:25.199
Scott jumped off so I'll move you to

01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:28.759
I'll have to move you to here

01:08:38.160 --> 01:08:40.380
so Bonnie we'll turn our sound off so we

01:08:40.380 --> 01:08:41.819
don't hear you talking to anybody right

01:08:41.819 --> 01:08:44.160
just exactly you just pretend you're

01:08:44.160 --> 01:08:46.259
you're actually in a physical breakout

01:08:46.259 --> 01:08:48.500
room right

01:09:02.040 --> 01:09:04.699
yeah

01:09:05.120 --> 01:09:09.020
uh Daylight Saving hours

01:09:09.020 --> 01:09:11.759
hi Sally we can talk here in the main

01:09:11.759 --> 01:09:12.719
room

01:09:12.719 --> 01:09:16.440
hey doing an exercise for 25 minutes or

01:09:16.440 --> 01:09:18.480
20 minutes now so

01:09:18.480 --> 01:09:20.580
um

01:09:20.580 --> 01:09:23.339
was it a similar a similar

01:09:23.339 --> 01:09:26.779
um okay hold on let me stop

01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.960
quite

01:09:43.779 --> 01:09:50.259
[Music]

01:10:11.040 --> 01:10:14.040
enjoy

01:10:18.120 --> 01:10:21.140
you could be aware

01:10:22.980 --> 01:10:25.400
thank you

01:10:52.400 --> 01:10:55.460
thank you

01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:06.679
okay

01:11:07.880 --> 01:11:10.739
uh let's see they're about Katie and

01:11:10.739 --> 01:11:16.580
Katie and jolt should be coming back

01:11:17.159 --> 01:11:18.840
all right so this exercise is a little

01:11:18.840 --> 01:11:21.360
hard harder

01:11:21.360 --> 01:11:24.480
um but uh what did you notice what

01:11:24.480 --> 01:11:26.520
surprised you there's always a good

01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:28.320
thing what did you share what did you

01:11:28.320 --> 01:11:29.760
hear other people say that was

01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:33.120
interesting uh what would you like to

01:11:33.120 --> 01:11:35.840
contribute

01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:47.820
um one thing that surprised me a lot

01:11:47.820 --> 01:11:50.820
was that I realized that one of uh

01:11:50.820 --> 01:11:52.920
one of the memories that come up came up

01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:54.840
and it's one of

01:11:54.840 --> 01:11:56.820
the memories that I relate to is most

01:11:56.820 --> 01:11:58.620
important in my life

01:11:58.620 --> 01:12:00.900
was in the third person and I'd never

01:12:00.900 --> 01:12:02.460
noticed that that memory was in the

01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:04.500
third person before and then it didn't

01:12:04.500 --> 01:12:06.600
make I was like I I don't know why it

01:12:06.600 --> 01:12:07.920
was in the third person it didn't make

01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:10.020
sense why it was in the third person

01:12:10.020 --> 01:12:11.940
it was the only memory that was in the

01:12:11.940 --> 01:12:14.100
third person

01:12:14.100 --> 01:12:16.440
and I didn't realize and I but I I

01:12:16.440 --> 01:12:18.780
realized that I have that memory in the

01:12:18.780 --> 01:12:20.880
third person every time I have it I

01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:23.960
don't know I don't know why

01:12:29.219 --> 01:12:33.679
have you told that story to people

01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:37.280
many times that's why you have it

01:12:37.280 --> 01:12:40.500
in the third person so it's the same for

01:12:40.500 --> 01:12:42.900
me there's there's a significant story

01:12:42.900 --> 01:12:45.000
it's got a lot of affect to it but I

01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:48.960
told it a lot so now I see it as a story

01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:51.719
I see myself walking those streets

01:12:51.719 --> 01:12:54.659
during the rain when I was a kid

01:12:54.659 --> 01:12:56.580
um but that's a natural trans

01:12:56.580 --> 01:12:58.920
transformation and the reason why it's

01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:00.739
important because if you're a

01:13:00.739 --> 01:13:05.280
psychiatrist it's not a repression it's

01:13:05.280 --> 01:13:08.940
not a strategy to I don't want to feel

01:13:08.940 --> 01:13:10.260
that

01:13:10.260 --> 01:13:14.400
it's it's actually a technique called

01:13:14.400 --> 01:13:18.900
mentalization you can you can uh it's

01:13:18.900 --> 01:13:21.500
not it's a positive technique so now

01:13:21.500 --> 01:13:25.380
you've you've put it in a context

01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:28.199
and you know that person in this walking

01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:29.880
in the street with suffering and what

01:13:29.880 --> 01:13:32.699
usually happens is you then

01:13:32.699 --> 01:13:36.120
create a category go why should young

01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:38.699
people suffer so it becomes more

01:13:38.699 --> 01:13:41.219
transpersonal but that's that's very

01:13:41.219 --> 01:13:43.380
there's a very good noticing and it's

01:13:43.380 --> 01:13:47.040
very common I mean that transition is

01:13:47.040 --> 01:13:50.540
seems to be how it works

01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:58.440
I'll share

01:13:58.440 --> 01:14:00.960
I was noticing

01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:02.760
it was really interesting because I I

01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:04.679
wrote it in linear

01:14:04.679 --> 01:14:08.159
but I realized that the shape of it as I

01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:12.659
was relating with its um

01:14:12.659 --> 01:14:15.840
improvisational unfoldment felt much

01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:17.940
more like radial

01:14:17.940 --> 01:14:20.940
and like this could because the C point

01:14:20.940 --> 01:14:23.699
of the memory

01:14:23.699 --> 01:14:28.260
um that swam up for me was

01:14:28.260 --> 01:14:30.360
the memory of

01:14:30.360 --> 01:14:33.420
um almost drowning when I was two or

01:14:33.420 --> 01:14:34.739
three

01:14:34.739 --> 01:14:36.780
and I was just describing that like it's

01:14:36.780 --> 01:14:38.820
a Memory that's only come back I guess

01:14:38.820 --> 01:14:42.239
to my Consciousness my conscious

01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:44.940
awareness more recently

01:14:44.940 --> 01:14:47.159
because my my mom kind of had to admit

01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:50.480
it to me and it kind of like helped me

01:14:50.480 --> 01:14:53.880
know why I have like images of caustics

01:14:53.880 --> 01:14:56.460
of like light filtering through water

01:14:56.460 --> 01:14:58.560
quite a bit it was like oh I I actually

01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:01.440
remember it's kind of like one of my

01:15:01.440 --> 01:15:04.739
Primal memories in a lot of ways

01:15:04.739 --> 01:15:05.880
but

01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:08.699
I was at yeah Zach asked me what like

01:15:08.699 --> 01:15:10.500
what it was coming through as and it was

01:15:10.500 --> 01:15:12.659
very immediate like mood it was coming

01:15:12.659 --> 01:15:14.580
through his mood

01:15:14.580 --> 01:15:18.900
and the mood of it was very almost like

01:15:18.900 --> 01:15:21.900
yeah very very porous like I was at the

01:15:21.900 --> 01:15:25.500
bottom of this pool but it kind of

01:15:25.500 --> 01:15:27.600
even though

01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:30.600
um I was feeling the burn of when I'm

01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:32.280
when you lose oxygen and you can't

01:15:32.280 --> 01:15:34.679
breathe anymore I felt very calm about

01:15:34.679 --> 01:15:35.520
it

01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:37.380
so it felt almost like I was just like

01:15:37.380 --> 01:15:40.260
in this it was it was honestly kind of

01:15:40.260 --> 01:15:43.020
like this like acceptance of

01:15:43.020 --> 01:15:45.840
being at the bottom of the water

01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:47.520
and it was really interesting because it

01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:49.920
like almost all the memories that

01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:52.320
Associated from there branched out from

01:15:52.320 --> 01:15:55.080
the mood that pervaded it like every

01:15:55.080 --> 01:15:57.960
other memory was like comes out of a

01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:01.800
similar like when I feel porous or like

01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:05.040
but then other it's like other elements

01:16:05.040 --> 01:16:07.679
and images and stories would kind of

01:16:07.679 --> 01:16:10.080
bring more

01:16:10.080 --> 01:16:10.880
um

01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:13.980
contaminants to the mood I guess like I

01:16:13.980 --> 01:16:15.900
was describing like at some point

01:16:15.900 --> 01:16:18.179
especially as I got older like fire and

01:16:18.179 --> 01:16:20.520
water became like a common theme in

01:16:20.520 --> 01:16:22.980
relationship and intention

01:16:22.980 --> 01:16:26.000
but yeah it did feel like the memory

01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:29.580
process like kind of coalesced from and

01:16:29.580 --> 01:16:31.620
within mood

01:16:31.620 --> 01:16:33.739
um

01:16:34.199 --> 01:16:37.500
yeah almost like a music I guess

01:16:37.500 --> 01:16:39.600
it felt like music yeah it's like music

01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:43.080
so I don't know if other people this is

01:16:43.080 --> 01:16:44.940
happening to you but like as soon as she

01:16:44.940 --> 01:16:47.580
said that I remember I wasn't on my mind

01:16:47.580 --> 01:16:48.960
forever

01:16:48.960 --> 01:16:52.260
when I almost drowned and it's the same

01:16:52.260 --> 01:16:55.500
thing this is why they teach parents

01:16:55.500 --> 01:16:58.080
about children children don't struggle

01:16:58.080 --> 01:17:00.420
when they drown they don't care

01:17:00.420 --> 01:17:03.239
and so as lifeguards you're taught not

01:17:03.239 --> 01:17:05.400
to look for like splashing and this and

01:17:05.400 --> 01:17:07.679
that you have to you have to nose on the

01:17:07.679 --> 01:17:09.360
beach and wonder where they are because

01:17:09.360 --> 01:17:11.880
children when they're drowning they

01:17:11.880 --> 01:17:13.980
don't care

01:17:13.980 --> 01:17:16.320
it's it and until you get to a certain

01:17:16.320 --> 01:17:18.179
age and this is that whole theory of

01:17:18.179 --> 01:17:19.920
taking your baby and teaching you know

01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:21.659
that they take these little newborns and

01:17:21.659 --> 01:17:23.040
they throw them in the water and this is

01:17:23.040 --> 01:17:24.600
how they teach them to swim because they

01:17:24.600 --> 01:17:26.880
don't want that's that comes with this

01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:28.860
this you grow out it out of it

01:17:28.860 --> 01:17:31.739
eventually but at a certain age yeah my

01:17:31.739 --> 01:17:32.940
mother used to say I did that all the

01:17:32.940 --> 01:17:34.560
time I walked into the water over my

01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:38.460
head and she had to like go find me so

01:17:38.460 --> 01:17:41.280
that's a very good memory yeah very good

01:17:41.280 --> 01:17:43.699
noticing

01:17:57.320 --> 01:18:01.880
uh my experience was

01:18:02.940 --> 01:18:07.860
um surprising in that as I as I flowed

01:18:07.860 --> 01:18:12.540
from memory to the next memory

01:18:12.540 --> 01:18:13.980
those

01:18:13.980 --> 01:18:15.980
um

01:18:16.440 --> 01:18:19.560
trigger moments were very much the same

01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:21.840
through the process

01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:25.140
there were like default triggerings and

01:18:25.140 --> 01:18:28.860
for me image was one of those defaults

01:18:28.860 --> 01:18:31.140
which surprised me because it wasn't

01:18:31.140 --> 01:18:34.080
like an image of a photo but it was

01:18:34.080 --> 01:18:37.560
definitely an image of that

01:18:37.560 --> 01:18:39.060
memory

01:18:39.060 --> 01:18:41.580
and mood and I knew that I would go to

01:18:41.580 --> 01:18:44.460
story I knew that that was a default for

01:18:44.460 --> 01:18:48.719
me but the image and mood part I am a

01:18:48.719 --> 01:18:50.640
feeling person so the mood didn't

01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:53.699
surprise me so much but the image did

01:18:53.699 --> 01:18:55.020
and

01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:55.860
um

01:18:55.860 --> 01:18:58.199
the other thing just

01:18:58.199 --> 01:19:01.380
uh the last point I want to make was the

01:19:01.380 --> 01:19:06.239
exercise for me was valuable the reason

01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:09.360
it was valuable was

01:19:09.360 --> 01:19:12.540
I walked through my life as a person

01:19:12.540 --> 01:19:15.000
who's had a long journey

01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:17.880
and to see the picture of that Journey

01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:21.060
those passages through my life and the

01:19:21.060 --> 01:19:24.060
memorable events of my life they're

01:19:24.060 --> 01:19:26.400
right on the on the graph

01:19:26.400 --> 01:19:28.679
uh uh

01:19:28.679 --> 01:19:31.560
is is something that I hold but I don't

01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:33.780
hold in my Consciousness as I'm taking

01:19:33.780 --> 01:19:39.000
step to step so I I enjoyed uh that

01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:42.440
part of the exercise

01:19:52.380 --> 01:19:55.800
you're muted okay good okay yeah uh

01:19:55.800 --> 01:19:58.199
something brought me to after a bunch of

01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:01.739
associations images associations mood

01:20:01.739 --> 01:20:04.199
one thing that I didn't see where where

01:20:04.199 --> 01:20:07.260
goes bonding is sensory like smelling I

01:20:07.260 --> 01:20:09.420
wasn't sure whether that what category

01:20:09.420 --> 01:20:10.920
that goes in

01:20:10.920 --> 01:20:14.100
but for them my bad it would be the same

01:20:14.100 --> 01:20:18.179
as image images set is visual sensing so

01:20:18.179 --> 01:20:20.580
uh I I I'll fix that for the exercise

01:20:20.580 --> 01:20:23.219
okay so I stayed on the whole left side

01:20:23.219 --> 01:20:25.739
of that Circle uh

01:20:25.739 --> 01:20:28.860
and but then at one point it brought in

01:20:28.860 --> 01:20:31.140
brought me to an association with an

01:20:31.140 --> 01:20:34.860
experience I had yesterday of not being

01:20:34.860 --> 01:20:37.020
in the consilience thing

01:20:37.020 --> 01:20:40.020
because uh we were doing something else

01:20:40.020 --> 01:20:41.640
with my granddaughters

01:20:41.640 --> 01:20:45.060
and a tremendous feeling of the

01:20:45.060 --> 01:20:47.460
aliveness of what I did do and the

01:20:47.460 --> 01:20:49.080
feeling of

01:20:49.080 --> 01:20:49.679
um

01:20:49.679 --> 01:20:52.500
well so I had an image of mycillium and

01:20:52.500 --> 01:20:56.280
that here in this place the mycelium

01:20:56.280 --> 01:20:57.239
um

01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:00.360
is as valid and real a place of the of

01:21:00.360 --> 01:21:03.000
the interweaving of mycelium and then

01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:06.120
when I went from there I I got an

01:21:06.120 --> 01:21:09.179
association with uh well I went from a

01:21:09.179 --> 01:21:11.100
mode of Devastation being on a beach

01:21:11.100 --> 01:21:13.260
with oil in it to remembering Rich

01:21:13.260 --> 01:21:14.940
Blondell

01:21:14.940 --> 01:21:17.219
um and his stuff in the sense of hope I

01:21:17.219 --> 01:21:19.620
got from him then I remembered Zach Bush

01:21:19.620 --> 01:21:21.719
a sense of hope I got from him and then

01:21:21.719 --> 01:21:23.699
I went to the mycelium

01:21:23.699 --> 01:21:26.760
but then um what happened with the

01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:29.340
mycelium was that it felt like that my

01:21:29.340 --> 01:21:32.520
son took over and started weaving my

01:21:32.520 --> 01:21:35.100
past in a whole new way so that whatever

01:21:35.100 --> 01:21:37.739
I thought my past was was now

01:21:37.739 --> 01:21:41.159
incorporated into this new almost

01:21:41.159 --> 01:21:42.600
Eternal structure

01:21:42.600 --> 01:21:45.300
and um and then it felt like I was

01:21:45.300 --> 01:21:48.659
weaving into the cosmo stories that rich

01:21:48.659 --> 01:21:51.060
is telling and

01:21:51.060 --> 01:21:51.659
um

01:21:51.659 --> 01:21:54.960
that my past my future my present and my

01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:57.060
future were actually part of a much

01:21:57.060 --> 01:22:01.020
larger past present and future and

01:22:01.020 --> 01:22:04.020
um so that me as the focal point of my

01:22:04.020 --> 01:22:05.400
memory

01:22:05.400 --> 01:22:06.960
didn't feel

01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:09.000
um significant any longer because it

01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:10.980
because there was almost a larger source

01:22:10.980 --> 01:22:12.900
of

01:22:12.900 --> 01:22:16.640
of weaving and construing of meaning

01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:19.560
that I was a part of and I was much more

01:22:19.560 --> 01:22:21.179
interested in that

01:22:21.179 --> 01:22:25.199
and so my imagination

01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:30.239
was at play improvisation was at play

01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:33.900
um and uh and uh being Remembered in a

01:22:33.900 --> 01:22:35.159
whole new way from this other

01:22:35.159 --> 01:22:37.320
perspective and then I decided that the

01:22:37.320 --> 01:22:39.840
repertoire the stories that I'd always

01:22:39.840 --> 01:22:42.300
told over and over again

01:22:42.300 --> 01:22:45.780
um the significance of my repertoire was

01:22:45.780 --> 01:22:48.300
shifting so that my repertoire itself

01:22:48.300 --> 01:22:50.340
was

01:22:50.340 --> 01:22:53.460
um relocating or or uh yeah just sort of

01:22:53.460 --> 01:22:55.620
dropping out in terms of how I had

01:22:55.620 --> 01:22:57.840
pulled things together so I don't know

01:22:57.840 --> 01:22:59.520
if that was what memory was supposed to

01:22:59.520 --> 01:23:03.060
bring yeah yeah this is beautiful so who

01:23:03.060 --> 01:23:06.900
now understands Phoebe much more than uh

01:23:06.900 --> 01:23:10.400
before she just shared this

01:23:10.400 --> 01:23:13.500
because she's all about imagination and

01:23:13.500 --> 01:23:15.600
improv and Association but the

01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:19.920
association is so improvisational and

01:23:19.920 --> 01:23:22.560
you nailed it you nailed it this was

01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:26.820
definitely uh yeah uh that yeah you

01:23:26.820 --> 01:23:29.400
nailed it so it's not it's not easy to

01:23:29.400 --> 01:23:32.520
have that much going on and and to say

01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:34.620
Ah that's what she we were saying was

01:23:34.620 --> 01:23:37.080
improv imagination Improv

01:23:37.080 --> 01:23:40.980
so it's it's uh yeah so there's a so I

01:23:40.980 --> 01:23:42.840
would say there's a tremendous amount of

01:23:42.840 --> 01:23:45.719
flux you see why I use flux because it's

01:23:45.719 --> 01:23:48.300
like starts to go in like you think oh

01:23:48.300 --> 01:23:50.040
Phoebe's gonna tell a story and then all

01:23:50.040 --> 01:23:51.540
of a sudden there's improv and it's

01:23:51.540 --> 01:23:53.040
changed into something else and then

01:23:53.040 --> 01:23:55.860
it's changed into something else and and

01:23:55.860 --> 01:23:58.560
then you know so

01:23:58.560 --> 01:23:59.219
um

01:23:59.219 --> 01:24:01.739
um yeah so that's just how we're using

01:24:01.739 --> 01:24:05.400
these words to be able to share

01:24:05.400 --> 01:24:08.340
um our our first person experience it

01:24:08.340 --> 01:24:11.580
with a language we can use so yeah

01:24:11.580 --> 01:24:13.739
um that was beautiful

01:24:13.739 --> 01:24:17.360
and I I didn't I couldn't get improv and

01:24:17.360 --> 01:24:20.460
Imagination in the past all I had was

01:24:20.460 --> 01:24:23.040
Association image story things that had

01:24:23.040 --> 01:24:25.320
already yeah so I don't know if other

01:24:25.320 --> 01:24:26.820
people have that from the past but for

01:24:26.820 --> 01:24:30.140
me it didn't happen until I was

01:24:33.540 --> 01:24:36.000
the thing is the chances are the past

01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:38.280
memories started the same way as

01:24:38.280 --> 01:24:40.920
imagination and improv and then they

01:24:40.920 --> 01:24:42.540
became they become more like a

01:24:42.540 --> 01:24:45.659
repertoire over time and they seem more

01:24:45.659 --> 01:24:49.520
static but you know yeah

01:24:57.420 --> 01:25:00.480
I felt like I was spreading a whole

01:25:00.480 --> 01:25:04.739
narrative about my life or after riding

01:25:04.739 --> 01:25:06.600
through it or just like one thing flew

01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:08.460
to flowed to another

01:25:08.460 --> 01:25:10.560
but what's interesting as we were

01:25:10.560 --> 01:25:12.840
talking in our group or I think we were

01:25:12.840 --> 01:25:16.199
we we didn't uh Sandra and Susan and I

01:25:16.199 --> 01:25:19.080
uh at least I uh I think we talked about

01:25:19.080 --> 01:25:22.260
it uh I didn't get emotionally involved

01:25:22.260 --> 01:25:24.480
in all of this like I normally would as

01:25:24.480 --> 01:25:28.280
I would walk through live

01:25:28.440 --> 01:25:30.960
was that because I was just into the

01:25:30.960 --> 01:25:34.199
narrative and not into the

01:25:34.199 --> 01:25:38.760
yeah sometimes the prompt is to you know

01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:41.460
the prompt can put people into like this

01:25:41.460 --> 01:25:45.300
is a timeline a storyline I mean it just

01:25:45.300 --> 01:25:47.640
happens that's what your experience was

01:25:47.640 --> 01:25:49.800
today

01:25:49.800 --> 01:25:53.040
um some people are all every time they

01:25:53.040 --> 01:25:54.840
remember things it's it's like a

01:25:54.840 --> 01:25:56.100
timeline

01:25:56.100 --> 01:25:56.699
um

01:25:56.699 --> 01:26:00.179
uh but you know as you just said that's

01:26:00.179 --> 01:26:02.100
not always the case for you and it might

01:26:02.100 --> 01:26:03.540
be because of the structure of the of

01:26:03.540 --> 01:26:05.400
the prompt remember what one of the

01:26:05.400 --> 01:26:07.139
First Things We Said the very first day

01:26:07.139 --> 01:26:10.620
is that the memory it's called memory

01:26:10.620 --> 01:26:13.139
but it's in service to The Prompt in the

01:26:13.139 --> 01:26:14.040
present

01:26:14.040 --> 01:26:16.320
and so

01:26:16.320 --> 01:26:18.600
um that that that might have been

01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:23.100
because of of the linear nature of uh

01:26:23.100 --> 01:26:25.940
the prompt

01:26:26.159 --> 01:26:29.580
and I didn't take it there into the

01:26:29.580 --> 01:26:31.560
present per se

01:26:31.560 --> 01:26:37.100
I was just focusing on the past yeah

01:26:39.600 --> 01:26:42.920
as a narrative yeah

01:26:44.520 --> 01:26:47.659
Sandra and Susan

01:26:53.219 --> 01:26:55.940
I have to turn off my little heater

01:26:55.940 --> 01:26:59.400
because it interferes with the noise

01:26:59.400 --> 01:27:00.420
um

01:27:00.420 --> 01:27:05.820
but going back to what Phoebe mentioned

01:27:05.820 --> 01:27:08.400
I got smells

01:27:08.400 --> 01:27:12.500
like I could smell when we

01:27:12.540 --> 01:27:14.760
heated our house with wood and the smell

01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:17.400
of the sourness of the oak when you'd

01:27:17.400 --> 01:27:20.340
split it and I could smell we had five

01:27:20.340 --> 01:27:23.699
beehives so I could smell that smell of

01:27:23.699 --> 01:27:26.520
the of the bees and

01:27:26.520 --> 01:27:27.239
um

01:27:27.239 --> 01:27:30.780
everything was so vivid that I only got

01:27:30.780 --> 01:27:33.900
to 40. I mean I had so I just had this

01:27:33.900 --> 01:27:38.040
flood of of memory and noticed that's

01:27:38.040 --> 01:27:40.580
less than a Third Way in

01:27:40.580 --> 01:27:44.699
all right thanks

01:27:45.120 --> 01:27:47.880
I appreciate that

01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:51.080
closer to the half

01:27:53.100 --> 01:27:57.060
um but the the there was something about

01:27:57.060 --> 01:27:58.760
um

01:27:58.760 --> 01:28:02.639
the micro phenomenology in my body that

01:28:02.639 --> 01:28:03.840
was just

01:28:03.840 --> 01:28:09.000
so alive like a lot here and here and

01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:09.780
um

01:28:09.780 --> 01:28:12.540
different images from one time frame

01:28:12.540 --> 01:28:15.239
would go oh yeah but that was also

01:28:15.239 --> 01:28:18.900
happening back then and

01:28:18.900 --> 01:28:21.300
I don't know whether it was suggestion

01:28:21.300 --> 01:28:23.520
or truth

01:28:23.520 --> 01:28:27.659
I did not find my mom very present at

01:28:27.659 --> 01:28:31.080
all in any of the memory much more so my

01:28:31.080 --> 01:28:32.159
dad

01:28:32.159 --> 01:28:33.540
um

01:28:33.540 --> 01:28:38.280
and somewhat my brother but more that I

01:28:38.280 --> 01:28:39.360
could

01:28:39.360 --> 01:28:44.219
sense the the imagery of different

01:28:44.219 --> 01:28:47.880
um spaces or different locations in my

01:28:47.880 --> 01:28:48.780
life

01:28:48.780 --> 01:28:51.360
and then Susan and I maybe Susan you

01:28:51.360 --> 01:28:53.100
want to speak to the question that you

01:28:53.100 --> 01:28:56.340
raised I think it'd be fun to just bring

01:28:56.340 --> 01:28:57.480
that up

01:28:57.480 --> 01:29:01.159
as as older people

01:29:03.360 --> 01:29:05.460
um yeah I had

01:29:05.460 --> 01:29:08.460
it's a little context I had a similar to

01:29:08.460 --> 01:29:10.920
Sandra and that I already got away about

01:29:10.920 --> 01:29:14.100
a third of the way through my life

01:29:14.100 --> 01:29:18.600
um but the images I I found it at times

01:29:18.600 --> 01:29:21.780
difficult to decide well I couldn't

01:29:21.780 --> 01:29:24.420
really wasn't the feeling

01:29:24.420 --> 01:29:26.639
was it the image I didn't quite know

01:29:26.639 --> 01:29:29.960
which came first or they came together

01:29:29.960 --> 01:29:33.420
and it was linear

01:29:33.420 --> 01:29:36.540
but I did jump around like

01:29:36.540 --> 01:29:40.260
I just because I I find it hard to be in

01:29:40.260 --> 01:29:42.540
a straight line I'm all over the place

01:29:42.540 --> 01:29:43.920
but

01:29:43.920 --> 01:29:45.960
the question I came with a question

01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:48.960
already I think that I asked and it's

01:29:48.960 --> 01:29:50.820
something I've been sitting with for the

01:29:50.820 --> 01:29:51.719
last

01:29:51.719 --> 01:29:57.719
um year or so I I notice now that I will

01:29:57.719 --> 01:30:00.659
just suddenly have a memory

01:30:00.659 --> 01:30:05.219
a memory will just arise and there will

01:30:05.219 --> 01:30:07.199
be

01:30:07.199 --> 01:30:11.040
feeling there'll be a feeling often

01:30:11.040 --> 01:30:13.440
but there's no emotional attachment

01:30:13.440 --> 01:30:16.260
there's no emotional stuff going on and

01:30:16.260 --> 01:30:20.639
it's almost as if it's like a letting go

01:30:20.639 --> 01:30:23.280
like I'm letting that go now not not

01:30:23.280 --> 01:30:25.679
that that it's gone and where the hell

01:30:25.679 --> 01:30:28.139
would it go but it's just there's no

01:30:28.139 --> 01:30:32.060
longer any emotional

01:30:32.060 --> 01:30:34.340
attachment to it and some of the

01:30:34.340 --> 01:30:38.040
memories of Fairly powerful memories I

01:30:38.040 --> 01:30:40.380
mean yeah like

01:30:40.380 --> 01:30:43.139
I don't know the most powerful one that

01:30:43.139 --> 01:30:46.080
I'm that's arising now is my father

01:30:46.080 --> 01:30:50.219
beating the dog with a piece of wire

01:30:50.219 --> 01:30:53.580
and this was this stayed with me for so

01:30:53.580 --> 01:30:57.719
long and I know that any cruelty I've

01:30:57.719 --> 01:30:59.639
got this thing about cruelty to animals

01:30:59.639 --> 01:31:02.600
and Injustice is very powerful for me

01:31:02.600 --> 01:31:07.260
but the memory now is like

01:31:07.260 --> 01:31:09.600
of course he was cruel and of course

01:31:09.600 --> 01:31:11.340
it's unjust

01:31:11.340 --> 01:31:15.179
and I still feel that very strongly but

01:31:15.179 --> 01:31:17.520
there's no emotional going on

01:31:17.520 --> 01:31:23.699
around it and we Sandra raised something

01:31:23.699 --> 01:31:25.620
else

01:31:25.620 --> 01:31:28.860
and that led to a further like it just

01:31:28.860 --> 01:31:30.659
expanded it a little bit there are two

01:31:30.659 --> 01:31:34.199
things one was this whole question of

01:31:34.199 --> 01:31:36.300
transformation

01:31:36.300 --> 01:31:37.980
and this has been very interesting

01:31:37.980 --> 01:31:40.940
because I asked the question was

01:31:40.940 --> 01:31:43.500
normally transformation for me is very

01:31:43.500 --> 01:31:45.260
messy and and

01:31:45.260 --> 01:31:47.760
discombobulating and some

01:31:47.760 --> 01:31:50.880
unpleasant often it just is never fun

01:31:50.880 --> 01:31:54.620
it's not fun for me but I

01:31:54.620 --> 01:31:57.420
this remembering

01:31:57.420 --> 01:32:01.500
and letting go has not been messy

01:32:01.500 --> 01:32:04.620
and so the question that came out of

01:32:04.620 --> 01:32:07.620
that from Sandra was is this she's been

01:32:07.620 --> 01:32:09.480
wondering as well is this something to

01:32:09.480 --> 01:32:12.000
do I was wondering is it a certain age

01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:13.620
when you get to certain age because

01:32:13.620 --> 01:32:16.380
we're all 70 plus in our group so is

01:32:16.380 --> 01:32:20.400
this something to do with growing older

01:32:20.400 --> 01:32:22.260
of letting go

01:32:22.260 --> 01:32:26.100
but not discombobulating not messy

01:32:26.100 --> 01:32:29.580
or Sandra asked is it also something to

01:32:29.580 --> 01:32:33.179
do with being in this course

01:32:33.179 --> 01:32:35.840
and that led to another whole lot of

01:32:35.840 --> 01:32:39.840
interesting questions because one of the

01:32:39.840 --> 01:32:41.699
things that I shared immediately

01:32:41.699 --> 01:32:45.480
remembered is that for sure things are

01:32:45.480 --> 01:32:47.639
changing things are transforming it's

01:32:47.639 --> 01:32:51.000
new spaces it's it's very exciting but I

01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:54.239
also shared my frustration with really

01:32:54.239 --> 01:32:55.800
good friends

01:32:55.800 --> 01:32:58.260
I just get really frustrated that they

01:32:58.260 --> 01:33:00.600
can't come into the space with

01:33:00.600 --> 01:33:04.380
me and be where I am and that they can't

01:33:04.380 --> 01:33:07.980
no I just skipped very annoyed and I

01:33:07.980 --> 01:33:10.199
want them to see what I'm seeing and

01:33:10.199 --> 01:33:13.260
stop talking

01:33:13.260 --> 01:33:15.719
which is funny

01:33:15.719 --> 01:33:18.780
um but it is it does raise some issues

01:33:18.780 --> 01:33:21.420
to me like what to say sometimes where

01:33:21.420 --> 01:33:22.940
to go

01:33:22.940 --> 01:33:25.860
but I am quite um

01:33:25.860 --> 01:33:27.840
I can be quite

01:33:27.840 --> 01:33:28.920
um

01:33:28.920 --> 01:33:31.440
forthright about this so all of the

01:33:31.440 --> 01:33:32.940
group all of the people I'm thinking of

01:33:32.940 --> 01:33:34.320
or a lot of them that I'm thinking of

01:33:34.320 --> 01:33:37.080
our book club is going to that they've

01:33:37.080 --> 01:33:41.159
agreed to study guess what is the one by

01:33:41.159 --> 01:33:44.340
David Hinton so this will be fun I'm

01:33:44.340 --> 01:33:46.260
looking forward to that how provocative

01:33:46.260 --> 01:33:48.960
will that be what will I say where will

01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:51.420
I go because it's going to be and then

01:33:51.420 --> 01:33:53.219
Sandra will have the whole thing about

01:33:53.219 --> 01:33:56.760
malware so yeah lots going on

01:33:56.760 --> 01:34:00.480
but um yeah that's a great share okay of

01:34:00.480 --> 01:34:01.860
course I want to say it has everything

01:34:01.860 --> 01:34:04.020
to do with this course and nothing to do

01:34:04.020 --> 01:34:06.719
with you but that would not be true

01:34:06.719 --> 01:34:08.940
um well yeah it's not just this course I

01:34:08.940 --> 01:34:11.159
mean you've been on the path for a long

01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:13.920
time and been very curious and so this

01:34:13.920 --> 01:34:18.560
is a way to grow into your older years

01:34:18.560 --> 01:34:22.440
and Achieve these kinds of results

01:34:22.440 --> 01:34:25.199
right because some people who don't do

01:34:25.199 --> 01:34:27.360
anything for a long time once they like

01:34:27.360 --> 01:34:30.780
retire they actually get more like they

01:34:30.780 --> 01:34:32.639
just get become caricatures of

01:34:32.639 --> 01:34:34.800
themselves and that's one way to grow

01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:36.540
old

01:34:36.540 --> 01:34:39.300
um and so it's it's insane with Sandra

01:34:39.300 --> 01:34:40.920
it's not like this is the first course

01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:43.080
like this so the first inquiry like this

01:34:43.080 --> 01:34:46.380
she's ever taken this is obvious but the

01:34:46.380 --> 01:34:48.600
point is this is why the taoists believe

01:34:48.600 --> 01:34:50.880
in you know they're really they're

01:34:50.880 --> 01:34:54.239
really uh emphasized uh longevity

01:34:54.239 --> 01:34:57.540
because they believe only active God

01:34:57.540 --> 01:34:59.940
around the bhagwa completely when you're

01:34:59.940 --> 01:35:02.940
I think 50 or 60 I think it's 50 when

01:35:02.940 --> 01:35:04.920
you're 50 years old you've completed one

01:35:04.920 --> 01:35:07.679
cycle and only then

01:35:07.679 --> 01:35:09.480
in course

01:35:09.480 --> 01:35:12.239
depending upon having worked the path

01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:14.639
for those 50 years only then are these

01:35:14.639 --> 01:35:16.080
fruits possible

01:35:16.080 --> 01:35:18.480
so that's one thing but this morning I

01:35:18.480 --> 01:35:21.120
was looking at a video

01:35:21.120 --> 01:35:26.580
of this guy uh who's pretty extreme

01:35:26.580 --> 01:35:31.139
um the spiritual person and he said that

01:35:31.139 --> 01:35:33.179
he was asked if men and women have

01:35:33.179 --> 01:35:34.699
different

01:35:34.699 --> 01:35:37.500
paths and he said well they

01:35:37.500 --> 01:35:40.440
they are different and

01:35:40.440 --> 01:35:41.639
um

01:35:41.639 --> 01:35:43.500
the the different things are different

01:35:43.500 --> 01:35:44.880
are harder

01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:48.239
uh for women it's like the path comes at

01:35:48.239 --> 01:35:50.159
certain points it unfolds the same way

01:35:50.159 --> 01:35:52.500
but what's hard for women and the

01:35:52.500 --> 01:35:53.880
periods that are hard for men are

01:35:53.880 --> 01:35:55.020
different

01:35:55.020 --> 01:35:57.679
and he said the best

01:35:57.679 --> 01:35:59.940
the best

01:35:59.940 --> 01:36:03.060
people are post-menopausal women he said

01:36:03.060 --> 01:36:06.980
that's when the enlightenment comes on

01:36:07.860 --> 01:36:12.719
so uh he's a very very young Tai Chi

01:36:12.719 --> 01:36:16.980
mixed martial arts very Transcendent uh

01:36:16.980 --> 01:36:20.219
teacher so he has he's not the kind of

01:36:20.219 --> 01:36:22.139
personality to say that you would expect

01:36:22.139 --> 01:36:25.260
him to to poo poo postmenopausal women

01:36:25.260 --> 01:36:27.420
but he said they make the best they're

01:36:27.420 --> 01:36:30.239
the they're the best students that's the

01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:34.980
period that is most fortuitous

01:36:37.139 --> 01:36:38.820
 I would have just had the things

01:36:38.820 --> 01:36:42.739
taken out when I was 10 if I knew that

01:36:53.060 --> 01:36:56.060
I'm new so like why

01:36:56.060 --> 01:36:59.159
does he have does he share reasons why

01:36:59.159 --> 01:37:02.880
well he's not you know he's not like he

01:37:02.880 --> 01:37:04.620
does talk about why but he talks about

01:37:04.620 --> 01:37:06.780
hormones

01:37:06.780 --> 01:37:09.380
um I forget what he said but it's like

01:37:09.380 --> 01:37:11.940
you know provided that the challenges

01:37:11.940 --> 01:37:14.820
you've you've gone through those periods

01:37:14.820 --> 01:37:16.800
that are challenging for you like

01:37:16.800 --> 01:37:19.679
emotions are challenging for women

01:37:19.679 --> 01:37:22.620
um sex is challenging for men and anger

01:37:22.620 --> 01:37:24.659
and stuff in different parts of the path

01:37:24.659 --> 01:37:26.340
you're working with

01:37:26.340 --> 01:37:29.159
you know different parts women tend to

01:37:29.159 --> 01:37:31.620
be too yielding he's also a body worker

01:37:31.620 --> 01:37:33.840
so like in order to come all the way

01:37:33.840 --> 01:37:36.000
around you have to you have to go

01:37:36.000 --> 01:37:37.500
through that

01:37:37.500 --> 01:37:38.940
um but he says there's a lot to do with

01:37:38.940 --> 01:37:42.420
hormones and just like it's it's a it's

01:37:42.420 --> 01:37:46.080
it's a property of nature it's uh you

01:37:46.080 --> 01:37:48.060
know a kind of Rhythm and wisdom and

01:37:48.060 --> 01:37:50.460
gift in nature which is you know why

01:37:50.460 --> 01:37:52.320
most people when they think of Elders

01:37:52.320 --> 01:37:54.540
they think of Crohn's like and all this

01:37:54.540 --> 01:37:58.800
this uh traditional archetype

01:37:58.800 --> 01:38:01.920
um so what was cool was that this was

01:38:01.920 --> 01:38:04.139
the last person you would expect to say

01:38:04.139 --> 01:38:06.000
that you know when like new age people

01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:08.159
say oh the Crohn's the elders are always

01:38:08.159 --> 01:38:10.139
women you know you think oh it's that

01:38:10.139 --> 01:38:12.000
that's that story that the feminists

01:38:12.000 --> 01:38:16.920
like to say and so uh I think so so it's

01:38:16.920 --> 01:38:18.300
very interesting I saw that today

01:38:18.300 --> 01:38:20.520
because this gives me a lot of

01:38:20.520 --> 01:38:22.020
confidence to

01:38:22.020 --> 01:38:23.580
um

01:38:23.580 --> 01:38:27.380
to say that's probably the case

01:38:43.260 --> 01:38:45.659
don't smile like that Cheryl you're much

01:38:45.659 --> 01:38:48.080
too young

01:39:01.800 --> 01:39:05.179
Katie and halt

01:39:07.139 --> 01:39:08.699
yeah I had a thing that I thought was

01:39:08.699 --> 01:39:09.960
really cool to share but I didn't know

01:39:09.960 --> 01:39:12.239
if we were out of time or what

01:39:12.239 --> 01:39:13.440
um but now that I've been prompted I'll

01:39:13.440 --> 01:39:15.120
just roll with it

01:39:15.120 --> 01:39:18.560
um I I did a timeline thing pretty

01:39:18.560 --> 01:39:21.540
carefully like I did it by

01:39:21.540 --> 01:39:23.219
um year

01:39:23.219 --> 01:39:26.100
um and one thing I noticed was

01:39:26.100 --> 01:39:26.820
um

01:39:26.820 --> 01:39:29.900
the like sequence of

01:39:29.900 --> 01:39:33.540
ways that things would come up was a

01:39:33.540 --> 01:39:36.179
function of what time period in my life

01:39:36.179 --> 01:39:37.500
I was remembering

01:39:37.500 --> 01:39:39.239
so like it would usually start with just

01:39:39.239 --> 01:39:40.739
like a raw Association and then it would

01:39:40.739 --> 01:39:43.800
go to say an image and there wouldn't

01:39:43.800 --> 01:39:45.360
really be much more raw associations

01:39:45.360 --> 01:39:47.400
which attract other images early on in

01:39:47.400 --> 01:39:48.840
my life

01:39:48.840 --> 01:39:50.280
um like for the earliest period it was

01:39:50.280 --> 01:39:51.600
all just like image back to Association

01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:52.980
to image and it wasn't really much even

01:39:52.980 --> 01:39:54.600
affect or anything like that and then

01:39:54.600 --> 01:39:56.040
slowly like affects started to become

01:39:56.040 --> 01:39:57.179
part of this chain as I got a little bit

01:39:57.179 --> 01:39:58.560
older

01:39:58.560 --> 01:39:59.699
um and then the whole thing kind of

01:39:59.699 --> 01:40:01.380
flipped and images weren't really

01:40:01.380 --> 01:40:03.360
present it would just be Association go

01:40:03.360 --> 01:40:05.580
to something like story to repertoire to

01:40:05.580 --> 01:40:06.900
affect and then repertoire started to

01:40:06.900 --> 01:40:08.760
become more dominant

01:40:08.760 --> 01:40:10.560
um in my like later teen years and early

01:40:10.560 --> 01:40:11.699
20s

01:40:11.699 --> 01:40:13.320
until it was like almost all in terms of

01:40:13.320 --> 01:40:14.820
repertoire and there wasn't even affect

01:40:14.820 --> 01:40:17.820
in the chains anymore uh and then over

01:40:17.820 --> 01:40:19.440
the as I got to like the last 10 years

01:40:19.440 --> 01:40:21.360
of my life a little closer to my current

01:40:21.360 --> 01:40:22.560
age

01:40:22.560 --> 01:40:24.179
um even though the repertoire would be

01:40:24.179 --> 01:40:25.320
gone and it would be just back to like

01:40:25.320 --> 01:40:28.980
image Association image Association but

01:40:28.980 --> 01:40:30.960
it was like it was actually really sharp

01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:33.659
to see this Arc I thought it was like

01:40:33.659 --> 01:40:36.980
super cool I've never noticed it before

01:40:38.940 --> 01:40:42.780
yeah to this super cool uh two uh

01:40:42.780 --> 01:40:44.760
insights in there

01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:45.240
um

01:40:45.240 --> 01:40:47.940
[Music]

01:40:47.940 --> 01:40:51.600
so uh we mistake

01:40:51.600 --> 01:40:53.420
children

01:40:53.420 --> 01:40:56.880
the affects

01:40:56.880 --> 01:40:59.400
not this none of this is completely true

01:40:59.400 --> 01:41:01.800
for all people but

01:41:01.800 --> 01:41:05.100
um the affect of tone

01:41:05.100 --> 01:41:07.440
which starts to become very emotional

01:41:07.440 --> 01:41:09.900
usually happens in puberty

01:41:09.900 --> 01:41:12.900
and the problem we have with children is

01:41:12.900 --> 01:41:14.540
we think they're going through

01:41:14.540 --> 01:41:17.760
psychological like the the you know

01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:19.620
something will happen like their dog

01:41:19.620 --> 01:41:21.719
will die and they may be sad but because

01:41:21.719 --> 01:41:24.239
we're so emotional like especially if

01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:26.159
you're a young parent you're still in

01:41:26.159 --> 01:41:29.360
this like hormonal puberty kind of thing

01:41:29.360 --> 01:41:31.739
we have to

01:41:31.739 --> 01:41:33.900
understand what's developmentally

01:41:33.900 --> 01:41:36.659
healthy for the child you know a child

01:41:36.659 --> 01:41:38.520
can like a child that grows up on the

01:41:38.520 --> 01:41:40.560
farm or the dog is dead

01:41:40.560 --> 01:41:44.340
and then you know so so then by the time

01:41:44.340 --> 01:41:48.860
puberty comes along this becomes

01:41:49.139 --> 01:41:51.540
like that you know there's a lot of that

01:41:51.540 --> 01:41:54.119
and then it becomes in storage and then

01:41:54.119 --> 01:41:57.360
it can so that's a beautiful way to uh

01:41:57.360 --> 01:42:00.300
yeah to describe an arc and and of

01:42:00.300 --> 01:42:04.260
course you can see that uh it maps on to

01:42:04.260 --> 01:42:06.719
like the identity project and my Origins

01:42:06.719 --> 01:42:10.739
yeah so so this is beautiful noticing

01:42:10.739 --> 01:42:11.460
um

01:42:11.460 --> 01:42:14.000
yeah

01:42:18.179 --> 01:42:19.679
it's just one follow-up on that I'm

01:42:19.679 --> 01:42:21.119
really curious to do this exercise again

01:42:21.119 --> 01:42:23.460
in different states of mind

01:42:23.460 --> 01:42:25.560
um because I I want to see like yeah

01:42:25.560 --> 01:42:27.179
what changes

01:42:27.179 --> 01:42:28.980
um I have this sense that my memory

01:42:28.980 --> 01:42:30.600
operates really differently in different

01:42:30.600 --> 01:42:33.179
like kind of dispositional states and I

01:42:33.179 --> 01:42:35.460
want to just actually do it and figure

01:42:35.460 --> 01:42:38.820
it out yeah like if you took DMT or MDMA

01:42:38.820 --> 01:42:42.080
this would be very different

01:42:42.080 --> 01:42:45.420
uh and and if you could take just enough

01:42:45.420 --> 01:42:47.820
so that you could also track then you'd

01:42:47.820 --> 01:42:50.400
understand a lot about how this stuff

01:42:50.400 --> 01:42:51.739
this stuff

01:42:51.739 --> 01:42:54.360
works you know how how it how it

01:42:54.360 --> 01:42:57.119
assembles and yeah it's a very

01:42:57.119 --> 01:42:59.219
interesting

01:42:59.219 --> 01:43:01.280
um

01:43:18.080 --> 01:43:20.520
Raj and Ray did you want to share

01:43:20.520 --> 01:43:23.119
anything or

01:43:23.159 --> 01:43:26.780
get it on videotape

01:43:33.360 --> 01:43:35.219
um I don't really have that much to

01:43:35.219 --> 01:43:36.420
share

01:43:36.420 --> 01:43:37.800
um

01:43:37.800 --> 01:43:39.960
I'm really enjoying listening to all of

01:43:39.960 --> 01:43:43.100
you though that's for sure

01:43:55.800 --> 01:43:59.820
yeah same here I think I'm just um

01:43:59.820 --> 01:44:03.060
something there's real uh

01:44:03.060 --> 01:44:05.219
something about a tenderness around this

01:44:05.219 --> 01:44:07.380
conversation so I just wanted to be

01:44:07.380 --> 01:44:09.980
present to it

01:44:13.260 --> 01:44:16.440
I have a question if I may please about

01:44:16.440 --> 01:44:17.820
memory

01:44:17.820 --> 01:44:21.300
and it relates to last week uh last the

01:44:21.300 --> 01:44:22.920
last session

01:44:22.920 --> 01:44:26.400
um you spoke about priors

01:44:26.400 --> 01:44:30.540
is this something that I would feel or

01:44:30.540 --> 01:44:35.040
notice or what what are you referring to

01:44:35.040 --> 01:44:40.020
yeah we not in these exercises and

01:44:40.020 --> 01:44:42.139
um

01:44:43.560 --> 01:44:47.100
I I think if we actually talked about

01:44:47.100 --> 01:44:48.900
them enough you would think you would

01:44:48.900 --> 01:44:50.699
you're experiencing them but probably

01:44:50.699 --> 01:44:53.940
not at the level all of us are at I mean

01:44:53.940 --> 01:44:55.320
myself include

01:44:55.320 --> 01:44:55.980
include

01:44:55.980 --> 01:44:58.080
um we're mostly

01:44:58.080 --> 01:45:01.440
dealing with with what

01:45:01.440 --> 01:45:03.360
the kinds of things we're talking about

01:45:03.360 --> 01:45:06.540
but do you want to stay in that space or

01:45:06.540 --> 01:45:09.239
can you explain a little more about

01:45:09.239 --> 01:45:11.940
buyers because I'm who asked me that

01:45:11.940 --> 01:45:13.560
question do you remember

01:45:13.560 --> 01:45:16.980
oh it came up in relation to something a

01:45:16.980 --> 01:45:20.460
question from Ray and then you you were

01:45:20.460 --> 01:45:25.139
given yeah Ray was noticing that the the

01:45:25.139 --> 01:45:28.560
okay ray was noticing the Royal memory

01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:31.380
actually is playing in your present

01:45:31.380 --> 01:45:32.820
experience

01:45:32.820 --> 01:45:35.520
so he wasn't remembering he wasn't

01:45:35.520 --> 01:45:37.739
trying to remember he was he was

01:45:37.739 --> 01:45:40.139
suspicious that even my present

01:45:40.139 --> 01:45:42.900
experience is built on these little

01:45:42.900 --> 01:45:44.340
priors

01:45:44.340 --> 01:45:46.860
that it's actually also my present

01:45:46.860 --> 01:45:49.500
experience Flows In Time the way memory

01:45:49.500 --> 01:45:51.300
Flows In Time

01:45:51.300 --> 01:45:55.139
and gets assembled from fragments the

01:45:55.139 --> 01:45:56.520
only difference is

01:45:56.520 --> 01:45:59.520
and yes many of us we keep bringing in

01:45:59.520 --> 01:46:02.100
memories and overlay on our present

01:46:02.100 --> 01:46:04.560
experience but let's say we're not doing

01:46:04.560 --> 01:46:06.380
that let's say we're just having

01:46:06.380 --> 01:46:09.239
moment-to-moment direct experience still

01:46:09.239 --> 01:46:13.199
what I see now is prior to my eye goes

01:46:13.199 --> 01:46:16.560
here is prior to my eye going over there

01:46:16.560 --> 01:46:21.320
and so the eye Consciousness has

01:46:21.420 --> 01:46:22.800
is

01:46:22.800 --> 01:46:25.679
and then we don't the eye conscious

01:46:25.679 --> 01:46:29.699
itself has a past present and future

01:46:29.699 --> 01:46:32.520
those are called priors it's not well

01:46:32.520 --> 01:46:35.340
they're not remembering okay and this is

01:46:35.340 --> 01:46:37.860
what he was alluding to okay so there's

01:46:37.860 --> 01:46:39.420
two things that can happen I can

01:46:39.420 --> 01:46:43.320
actually be talking to my partner and I

01:46:43.320 --> 01:46:45.480
can see all yeah he's gonna say this now

01:46:45.480 --> 01:46:47.520
because he always says this and if I can

01:46:47.520 --> 01:46:49.800
um bring too much memory into it okay

01:46:49.800 --> 01:46:52.320
that's one thing but Ray was saying like

01:46:52.320 --> 01:46:54.739
but even if I'm not doing that

01:46:54.739 --> 01:46:58.560
there seems to be some past present

01:46:58.560 --> 01:47:02.460
future flow in moment-to-moment

01:47:02.460 --> 01:47:05.400
perceptual sensation

01:47:05.400 --> 01:47:07.980
we call those priors we don't call that

01:47:07.980 --> 01:47:12.780
memory okay okay so that's that's where

01:47:12.780 --> 01:47:15.540
that was coming from

01:47:15.540 --> 01:47:16.920
um

01:47:16.920 --> 01:47:18.480
it was this and it was a very

01:47:18.480 --> 01:47:20.580
sophisticated comment

01:47:20.580 --> 01:47:22.500
um but yeah I think you understand it

01:47:22.500 --> 01:47:25.560
now yeah so we use a different word

01:47:25.560 --> 01:47:27.119
because it's not like your eye is

01:47:27.119 --> 01:47:29.580
remembering it doesn't have that kind of

01:47:29.580 --> 01:47:32.040
Consciousness but but you know

01:47:32.040 --> 01:47:36.619
everything's fractal there's a wave

01:47:37.260 --> 01:47:41.400
so uh yeah the in the prayers that

01:47:41.400 --> 01:47:43.500
happens really fast if you're a great

01:47:43.500 --> 01:47:46.020
Buddhist and you're just watching

01:47:46.020 --> 01:47:48.900
present experience you'll see it looks

01:47:48.900 --> 01:47:53.219
like when I watch How I Met remember

01:47:53.219 --> 01:47:55.260
that there's a there's a there's a

01:47:55.260 --> 01:47:59.000
common template to these things

01:48:00.300 --> 01:48:02.460
and just like in our memory there's gaps

01:48:02.460 --> 01:48:04.260
like and then all of a sudden you're on

01:48:04.260 --> 01:48:07.080
through something else an actual you

01:48:07.080 --> 01:48:09.000
know you heard Apostle talking about

01:48:09.000 --> 01:48:11.520
then my mind refreshes and

01:48:11.520 --> 01:48:13.080
it's on to something else

01:48:13.080 --> 01:48:14.820
so

01:48:14.820 --> 01:48:18.780
it's easier to to notice in the memory

01:48:18.780 --> 01:48:20.940
exercise because there's enough space

01:48:20.940 --> 01:48:23.699
and it's slower than what happens in in

01:48:23.699 --> 01:48:26.480
just perception

01:48:28.440 --> 01:48:31.800
okay now I have a request

01:48:31.800 --> 01:48:34.980
during this whole exercise you know how

01:48:34.980 --> 01:48:37.860
like every time we start I have a song

01:48:37.860 --> 01:48:41.219
that's like a song about memory

01:48:41.219 --> 01:48:45.360
there's this one song I cannot find that

01:48:45.360 --> 01:48:47.699
I cannot remember

01:48:47.699 --> 01:48:49.619
and I think it's because it doesn't

01:48:49.619 --> 01:48:51.480
actually exist it might be a song that's

01:48:51.480 --> 01:48:53.580
all mashed up in my head

01:48:53.580 --> 01:48:58.199
and I tried to use Google hum to find it

01:48:58.199 --> 01:49:01.440
for me but uh I I it didn't work and I

01:49:01.440 --> 01:49:04.500
can't ask Sandy because he's deaf

01:49:04.500 --> 01:49:08.219
so I'm going to hum this song and I want

01:49:08.219 --> 01:49:11.159
you to help me remember this is gets

01:49:11.159 --> 01:49:13.739
into Collective memory okay

01:49:13.739 --> 01:49:15.840
so it goes something like this it's been

01:49:15.840 --> 01:49:17.639
driving me nuts literally I've probably

01:49:17.639 --> 01:49:19.619
spent eight hours looking for this on

01:49:19.619 --> 01:49:21.480
YouTube but different I went to chat

01:49:21.480 --> 01:49:24.239
chat everything okay so it goes like

01:49:24.239 --> 01:49:28.639
this do you remember

01:49:40.350 --> 01:49:41.699
[Music]

01:49:41.699 --> 01:49:44.699
oh

01:49:47.600 --> 01:49:51.440
okay what's that song

01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:00.719
it definitely exists it was probably a

01:50:00.719 --> 01:50:05.540
45 and it's probably from about

01:50:05.900 --> 01:50:07.560
1962.

01:50:07.560 --> 01:50:11.340
yes I know so it might be like we'll

01:50:11.340 --> 01:50:14.580
find it you just have to sing the song

01:50:14.580 --> 01:50:19.020
Now figure out in your head and and even

01:50:19.020 --> 01:50:21.480
into the car if you can get to the

01:50:21.480 --> 01:50:22.639
course

01:50:22.639 --> 01:50:24.440
of course

01:50:24.440 --> 01:50:27.860
no because I think that's the title

01:50:27.860 --> 01:50:31.560
okay one free month

01:50:31.560 --> 01:50:34.440
at the pop-up school if you can come up

01:50:34.440 --> 01:50:36.659
with the right answer

01:50:36.659 --> 01:50:39.360
before the end of this course

01:50:39.360 --> 01:50:42.360
you're a week okay my friends this was

01:50:42.360 --> 01:50:45.300
fun really good and thank you all for

01:50:45.300 --> 01:50:47.780
being here

01:50:49.139 --> 01:50:51.679
bye everyone

## Cohort 4

00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:03.800
foreign

00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:10.079
[Music]

00:00:14.780 --> 00:00:18.359
so this early for a lot of people I

00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:20.580
suspect people will come

00:00:20.580 --> 00:00:25.460
up uh join us at the top of the hour

00:00:25.560 --> 00:00:26.420
um

00:00:26.420 --> 00:00:30.980
but that's okay

00:00:31.500 --> 00:00:32.240
um

00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:33.840
[Music]

00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.899
we're going to start off today with a

00:00:36.899 --> 00:00:40.440
little presentation because when we do

00:00:40.440 --> 00:00:44.280
our exercise I want you to

00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:48.840
um track some subtle some subtleties

00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:50.940
um and so

00:00:50.940 --> 00:00:53.340
um I'm just gonna do this

00:00:53.340 --> 00:00:54.960
kind of this little PowerPoint

00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:59.820
presentation to give you an idea of what

00:00:59.820 --> 00:01:01.920
we'll be working with the material we

00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:05.660
will be trying to work with today

00:01:05.780 --> 00:01:08.100
uh basic

00:01:08.100 --> 00:01:10.140
here we go

00:01:10.140 --> 00:01:12.540
um okay so

00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:14.659
um

00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:17.460
move that height

00:01:17.460 --> 00:01:20.400
floating needing controls okay

00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.619
so

00:01:22.619 --> 00:01:25.439
um when we first started to talk when I

00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:27.060
first wrote the course content we

00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:30.540
started talking about memory as a chef

00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:34.860
assembling a recipe right and this

00:01:34.860 --> 00:01:39.420
notion that the memory takes takes

00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:42.420
uh

00:01:43.020 --> 00:01:44.939
something fragments that's the word

00:01:44.939 --> 00:01:47.460
fragments from the past but in the

00:01:47.460 --> 00:01:50.700
process of creating the dish the

00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:52.979
fragments get updated because it has to

00:01:52.979 --> 00:01:55.079
satisfy

00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.600
um the context of the present right so

00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:01.619
this kind of pulling from the past as if

00:02:01.619 --> 00:02:03.540
you're pulling it through a tube and the

00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:05.640
tube is something that's shaping the

00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:07.560
present moment

00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.500
um this is a different metaphor and it's

00:02:10.500 --> 00:02:13.980
the metaphors memory as flux and if you

00:02:13.980 --> 00:02:15.300
think about

00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:16.020
um

00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:19.620
listening to an orchestral piece uh

00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:23.099
where does the where is that piece

00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:26.640
the the piece isn't at any one moment of

00:02:26.640 --> 00:02:28.080
the orchestra it's not at the beginning

00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:30.660
and it's not at the end it's kind of has

00:02:30.660 --> 00:02:32.420
this long

00:02:32.420 --> 00:02:35.580
drawn like if you could be attentive you

00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:37.980
could still hear the first note when

00:02:37.980 --> 00:02:39.660
you're hearing the second last note

00:02:39.660 --> 00:02:41.840
right if you could really

00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:45.420
draw the whole thing out and so memory

00:02:45.420 --> 00:02:49.379
is something like an orchestral

00:02:49.379 --> 00:02:51.180
um but

00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:54.300
we want to think about memory as not

00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:58.200
only the flow of the music but flux and

00:02:58.200 --> 00:03:01.680
we'll get to what this means later but

00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.260
basically flux means as it's as if the

00:03:04.260 --> 00:03:07.860
orchestra started playing a piece that

00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:09.599
they all knew like we're all here to

00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:11.659
play

00:03:11.659 --> 00:03:14.519
Beethoven's Fifth concerto but somewhere

00:03:14.519 --> 00:03:18.959
in the middle they start to to improvise

00:03:18.959 --> 00:03:21.659
and the improvisation is the flux it's

00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:25.440
the interruption of this single flow

00:03:25.440 --> 00:03:26.879
um and so that's what we're going to be

00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.940
working with today we want to try to not

00:03:29.940 --> 00:03:33.780
only feel this flow but also this notion

00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:36.900
of flux so we'll look at this so

00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:39.420
we we know that there's different types

00:03:39.420 --> 00:03:42.000
of memories there's procedural so you

00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.379
get the sense that the memory is

00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:46.799
actually in your fingers uh there's

00:03:46.799 --> 00:03:50.159
propositional so this is a example is

00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:52.500
he's writing out the storyline for a

00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:56.040
song uh there's semantic abstractions so

00:03:56.040 --> 00:03:59.700
these are symbolic abstract notes

00:03:59.700 --> 00:04:02.760
um then there's participatory

00:04:02.760 --> 00:04:05.340
um so there's uh music that's

00:04:05.340 --> 00:04:07.500
participatory

00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:10.200
um and then there's extended so that we

00:04:10.200 --> 00:04:13.260
can you know put our music in store it

00:04:13.260 --> 00:04:16.260
store the memory of the music in a

00:04:16.260 --> 00:04:19.680
console and then move the console around

00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.280
and and then sing over the console so

00:04:23.280 --> 00:04:26.100
these are all the uh

00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:29.400
these are all the the processes that are

00:04:29.400 --> 00:04:31.620
involved in the long-term storage of

00:04:31.620 --> 00:04:32.759
memory

00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:34.860
but when we

00:04:34.860 --> 00:04:35.600
um

00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:37.740
catalyze when we're trying to remember

00:04:37.740 --> 00:04:42.060
something the phenomenology is of these

00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:45.900
fragments so for example if I'm trying

00:04:45.900 --> 00:04:48.380
to remember something

00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:52.440
when I try to remember

00:04:52.440 --> 00:04:57.720
what it was like to be in third grade I

00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:00.720
noticed that that memory starts with a

00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:01.699
mood

00:05:01.699 --> 00:05:04.560
it doesn't start with a lot of image it

00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.600
starts with a mood then the from that

00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.479
mood that mood seeds

00:05:09.479 --> 00:05:12.060
um or collects or assembles more of the

00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:15.360
memory so sometimes one of the fragments

00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:17.820
is more like a mood sometimes it's more

00:05:17.820 --> 00:05:20.340
like an affect like if you try to

00:05:20.340 --> 00:05:21.900
remember something and all of a sudden

00:05:21.900 --> 00:05:24.660
you get scared the the affect comes

00:05:24.660 --> 00:05:28.320
first and then it starts to assemble the

00:05:28.320 --> 00:05:30.840
memory around an affect

00:05:30.840 --> 00:05:34.320
uh some people when they as soon as they

00:05:34.320 --> 00:05:37.080
begin to start to remember they get

00:05:37.080 --> 00:05:39.720
either visual or other kinds of sensory

00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.740
images smell taste sometimes touch if

00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:48.600
you remember a uh intimate encounter

00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:52.620
um with a hurt animal or or a lover the

00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:55.199
first thing might be what it was like to

00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:56.699
touch

00:05:56.699 --> 00:05:59.820
um touch touch the skin

00:05:59.820 --> 00:06:00.960
um

00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:02.880
and sometimes

00:06:02.880 --> 00:06:05.340
um we have to when we're remembering

00:06:05.340 --> 00:06:07.680
something it's very hard for us to

00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.380
remember so we go into story we say well

00:06:10.380 --> 00:06:12.419
when I was 10 years old that means I

00:06:12.419 --> 00:06:14.639
must have been in the sixth grade in the

00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.539
sixth grade so I start to have more of a

00:06:18.539 --> 00:06:21.240
storyline that helps me get into the

00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.060
memory and then once I situate myself

00:06:24.060 --> 00:06:28.680
with the storyline then these other

00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:30.080
um I might then

00:06:30.080 --> 00:06:33.780
recreate the mood and Etc so

00:06:33.780 --> 00:06:36.419
um they don't Norm it's not that they

00:06:36.419 --> 00:06:38.400
come in this order

00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:40.620
um they come

00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:43.680
um in in different orders and sometimes

00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:47.160
it gets all mashed up so

00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:48.600
um sometimes

00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:51.240
um it's just by association so if I'm

00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:53.340
trying to remember

00:06:53.340 --> 00:06:56.639
um someone's name sometimes I say well

00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.819
they like I know that they were friends

00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:02.580
with this person at the time and because

00:07:02.580 --> 00:07:04.080
I've moved

00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:05.759
to this other person that they're

00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.039
associated with that may help me

00:07:08.039 --> 00:07:10.979
remember that person's name

00:07:10.979 --> 00:07:13.800
so this is named memory by association

00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:15.479
you you have two things that are

00:07:15.479 --> 00:07:17.639
associated one you can't remember so you

00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:19.860
go to the one you can remember these are

00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:22.380
all different phenomenon that happen in

00:07:22.380 --> 00:07:24.720
our experience of memory sometimes

00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.000
there's just signs

00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:27.900
um

00:07:27.900 --> 00:07:28.740
um

00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:32.460
so this one's not that clear but signs

00:07:32.460 --> 00:07:34.259
are like

00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:37.460
um you remember that there were

00:07:37.460 --> 00:07:42.080
there were footprints on the muddy floor

00:07:42.080 --> 00:07:46.500
okay that's just a sign and then

00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:50.580
um ah yes now I remember the the mud was

00:07:50.580 --> 00:07:53.520
from something else blah blah blah

00:07:53.520 --> 00:07:55.620
um it's very similar to visual images

00:07:55.620 --> 00:07:57.479
but

00:07:57.479 --> 00:07:59.940
they lead you more to the memory rather

00:07:59.940 --> 00:08:03.960
than our images of the memory itself

00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:07.620
um then there's imagination so we talked

00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:10.080
last time about how when some people

00:08:10.080 --> 00:08:13.020
were remembering their bedrooms

00:08:13.020 --> 00:08:16.259
um they could they actually were adding

00:08:16.259 --> 00:08:19.379
imaginative uh content the difference

00:08:19.379 --> 00:08:21.300
between

00:08:21.300 --> 00:08:24.300
um Imagination and memory is an

00:08:24.300 --> 00:08:29.400
important uh thing to to notice

00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:32.880
um and uh we'll we'll get into that in

00:08:32.880 --> 00:08:35.099
in a little bit and to notice how

00:08:35.099 --> 00:08:37.919
closely they're linked so imagination is

00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:39.959
not really a memory you're just kind of

00:08:39.959 --> 00:08:43.339
adding imaginative content to the memory

00:08:43.339 --> 00:08:46.860
oftentimes because there's there's a gap

00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:49.620
in the memory and so you fill that Gap

00:08:49.620 --> 00:08:53.160
with a little bit of storyline

00:08:53.160 --> 00:08:56.160
um the way we feel when you're looking

00:08:56.160 --> 00:09:00.480
at a TV series you know like them one

00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:02.580
scene might be the woman is going on a

00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:04.620
date and she's very nervous and then the

00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:06.959
very next scene she's sitting on the

00:09:06.959 --> 00:09:10.320
couch with you know with a cold

00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.720
uh press on her head because she has a

00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.500
hangover and you imagine what must have

00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:18.120
happened on the date you never actually

00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:19.920
see and so that's how the imagination

00:09:19.920 --> 00:09:22.140
Works in memory it often fills in these

00:09:22.140 --> 00:09:23.760
gaps

00:09:23.760 --> 00:09:26.160
um and when you notice that's happening

00:09:26.160 --> 00:09:29.220
notice how imagination is as a different

00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:32.160
felt sense than memory

00:09:32.160 --> 00:09:33.660
and then there's something called

00:09:33.660 --> 00:09:36.660
improvisation uh we did have someone

00:09:36.660 --> 00:09:39.480
last time was a very improvisational

00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:41.640
memory and that is you start with one

00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:43.860
memory and then it gets associated with

00:09:43.860 --> 00:09:45.060
something else and then you're in

00:09:45.060 --> 00:09:46.560
another memory and then you start to

00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:48.899
imagine improvisation is when all these

00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:50.779
things start to feed off of each other

00:09:50.779 --> 00:09:56.160
in a very kind of flux uh kind of way

00:09:56.160 --> 00:09:56.839
um

00:09:56.839 --> 00:09:59.459
and that that they're all triggers and

00:09:59.459 --> 00:10:01.320
catalysts for each other

00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:03.959
you get this sense when you listen to

00:10:03.959 --> 00:10:05.839
someone who's an improvisational

00:10:05.839 --> 00:10:10.200
rememberer has that kind of mind uh it's

00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:12.420
very clear once you once you understand

00:10:12.420 --> 00:10:15.300
this term what's happening in in their

00:10:15.300 --> 00:10:16.980
reality

00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:18.360
and then the last one is called

00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:21.120
repertoire repertoire is a memory you

00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:24.600
have that you've uh talked about so many

00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.279
times that it's actually kind of a

00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:29.880
shtick so when a typical one is people

00:10:29.880 --> 00:10:32.519
say oh how did you two meet right you

00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:34.140
and your husband and you've told this

00:10:34.140 --> 00:10:36.360
story so many times and you've kind of

00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.240
it gets updated and then the jokes get a

00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.820
little better and then the the timing

00:10:41.820 --> 00:10:43.500
gets better because he knows when you're

00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:45.540
going to tell the joke and stuff this is

00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:47.820
not really this is a memory but you're

00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:49.980
remembering the repertoire you're not

00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:53.220
really remembering the memory

00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:54.000
um

00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.459
and some people are very surprised by

00:10:56.459 --> 00:10:58.860
this because sometimes the most

00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:00.839
significant things that happen to us

00:11:00.839 --> 00:11:04.200
have become repertoire like Memoirs and

00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:06.839
we can't feel it anymore I mean or you

00:11:06.839 --> 00:11:09.720
have to take some time to slow yourself

00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.779
down and get out of the repertoire so

00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:15.000
um there may be other things involved in

00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.420
this there's a the ones that as far as I

00:11:18.420 --> 00:11:21.600
know that I've come discern and so we

00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:26.459
just want to notice as memory flows it

00:11:26.459 --> 00:11:29.820
also changes from affect to story to

00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:32.100
science to maybe imagine but there's a

00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.800
there's both a continuity like pulling

00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:36.600
out and then there's gaps and then

00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.480
there's something else might be changed

00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.399
the nature of it so we're we're just

00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:42.839
trying to

00:11:42.839 --> 00:11:45.120
um to understand these things this is

00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.640
all of this is an exercise we're doing

00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:51.079
today as we build into the imagination

00:11:51.079 --> 00:11:54.800
next time you'll see why this exercise

00:11:54.800 --> 00:11:56.339
uh

00:11:56.339 --> 00:11:59.100
has very substantial background

00:11:59.100 --> 00:12:01.260
components for going forward but we

00:12:01.260 --> 00:12:04.200
won't we don't want to jump ahead

00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:08.399
okay so flux this word flux is very

00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.920
interesting uh you may have seen the

00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:12.360
content that I wrote this morning

00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.420
because I wanted to get it down

00:12:15.420 --> 00:12:19.260
um but this this notion of flux is from

00:12:19.260 --> 00:12:20.760
um the book by Nick Lane called

00:12:20.760 --> 00:12:22.560
Transformer and the reason why it's

00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:25.260
interesting is because he uses the

00:12:25.260 --> 00:12:26.820
notion of flux

00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:30.600
he's a theoretical biophysicist and he

00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.779
works with uh models he has a model of

00:12:33.779 --> 00:12:36.980
why life evolved on the Earth

00:12:36.980 --> 00:12:40.980
and through biochemical processes and

00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:42.540
the reason why this is important because

00:12:42.540 --> 00:12:45.540
if we can understand the nature of flux

00:12:45.540 --> 00:12:48.000
in our lived experience and memory and

00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.760
Imagination we'll find out then we can

00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:55.800
see that it's got it shares a common uh

00:12:55.800 --> 00:12:59.760
syntax with the biochemical emergence of

00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:00.600
life

00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.880
and in our theory of the body this is

00:13:02.880 --> 00:13:04.800
what we're trying to do we're trying to

00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:07.320
say that there are these general

00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.740
principles or patterns that are all the

00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:13.920
way up and all the way down so the fact

00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:18.620
that we have this from a biophysicist

00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:22.740
working on the origins of life is is is

00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:25.860
is kind of interesting Okay so

00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:30.420
how does he explain flux he says uh

00:13:30.420 --> 00:13:34.260
he says flux is a form of flow but with

00:13:34.260 --> 00:13:36.120
one crucial difference

00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:38.579
water can flow in a river or traffic

00:13:38.579 --> 00:13:41.399
down a street what goes in at one end

00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:43.560
and what comes out the other is the same

00:13:43.560 --> 00:13:45.959
thing water or cars

00:13:45.959 --> 00:13:48.540
in Biochemistry flux is the flow of

00:13:48.540 --> 00:13:51.240
things that are transformed along the

00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:53.420
way

00:13:54.420 --> 00:13:58.019
this is his imaginary example imagine a

00:13:58.019 --> 00:13:59.820
car entering a street let's say it's a

00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:02.940
VW Beetle no soon has it gone 10 yards

00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:05.339
down then there's a blinding Flash and

00:14:05.339 --> 00:14:07.740
it abruptly turns into a Porsche then

00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:09.600
another Flash and it becomes a Volvo

00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.060
bang it's a white van zap now it's a

00:14:12.060 --> 00:14:14.639
minibus flash it's a tractor which

00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.540
leaves the street okay so you still see

00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:20.339
something entering and something going

00:14:20.339 --> 00:14:24.060
down the street Continuous Flow but

00:14:24.060 --> 00:14:26.399
there's all these Transformations along

00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.620
the way and that's what we use the term

00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:31.459
flux for

00:14:32.060 --> 00:14:35.459
uh those of you who are meditators deep

00:14:35.459 --> 00:14:40.260
meditators will understand that uh the

00:14:40.260 --> 00:14:43.139
contents of the phenomenon are

00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:47.040
discontinuous they and they they flux

00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:49.019
but behind there there's a continuous

00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:52.440
stream of energy stream entry

00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.300
um or if you think about it as uh

00:14:56.300 --> 00:14:58.860
ripples in the water the water is

00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:01.800
continuous flow but the ripples

00:15:01.800 --> 00:15:04.820
are discontinuate this discontinuate

00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:09.019
continuous at each at each level okay

00:15:09.019 --> 00:15:11.399
but the strangest thing about this

00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.620
street is that the same thing keep keeps

00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.019
happening only VW Beetles ever enter the

00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:18.779
street only tractors of relief of course

00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:20.579
that's just this street so now he's

00:15:20.579 --> 00:15:22.320
saying in real life it's more complex

00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:24.180
look take a look at the street around

00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:27.120
the corner there you'll see only Vespa

00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:29.579
scooters entering and transforming into

00:15:29.579 --> 00:15:32.100
Harley motorbikes only after a series of

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:34.380
Transformations along the way and just

00:15:34.380 --> 00:15:36.779
across town There's a canal where canoes

00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:39.360
change into speed boats so these

00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.139
multiple levels of flux within

00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.839
um within the different flows

00:15:45.839 --> 00:15:47.480
okay

00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.399
so now this is the is there any

00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.380
questions on that I mean is that just

00:15:52.380 --> 00:15:54.360
it's just terminology

00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.940
um yeah Turan yeah so

00:15:58.940 --> 00:16:01.620
it perhaps this is a naive question but

00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:03.000
like the thing that I keep thinking of

00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.160
is okay so if we're talking about the

00:16:05.160 --> 00:16:06.720
flow of a river

00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.079
and that ostensibly it's water that's

00:16:10.079 --> 00:16:12.540
flowing through the river and that the

00:16:12.540 --> 00:16:14.459
distinction between flux and flow is

00:16:14.459 --> 00:16:16.920
that there are these transformations

00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:18.540
I'm kind of like

00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:20.579
what level of resolution are we talking

00:16:20.579 --> 00:16:22.680
about the transformation because like in

00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:24.360
your example of the ripples in the water

00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.980
there's

00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:27.600
there's no flow where things aren't

00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.880
transformed it just depends on

00:16:29.880 --> 00:16:31.920
sort of how

00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:33.480
you know where we're looking at it what

00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.220
level of resolution how close or how far

00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:39.660
whether you call it but what we're

00:16:39.660 --> 00:16:41.940
trying to do is resolve whatever comes

00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.519
up in this exercise into the flux and

00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:45.779
the flow

00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:48.240
okay so

00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.940
um yeah so I don't want to over talk the

00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:52.500
exercise because I don't want to right

00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:56.160
but you but sometimes if you're noticing

00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:58.500
that you go from this to that to this to

00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:00.480
that and then there's a gap the gaps are

00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.180
interesting because in the Gap you'll

00:17:03.180 --> 00:17:04.740
think there's nothing because you're

00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.319
looking too much for flux but in the Gap

00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.079
you'll feel

00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.079
that underneath is this energetic thing

00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.880
that's still working it's just there's

00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.799
no doesn't have any Transformations

00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.500
anymore it doesn't have any images it

00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.500
doesn't have anything to to serve up

00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:25.020
and then something comes and the reason

00:17:25.020 --> 00:17:28.380
why it so the level of flux it seems

00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:30.540
discontinuous

00:17:30.540 --> 00:17:32.820
but at the level of flow you realize the

00:17:32.820 --> 00:17:36.600
Gap is not really nothing

00:17:36.600 --> 00:17:40.380
it's energetic flow

00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:45.660
um and so so so so that would be in the

00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:47.880
exercise to notice it like that now

00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:50.400
there's for some people

00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.280
um uh

00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:55.919
uh some people the flow will be

00:17:55.919 --> 00:17:58.080
prominent

00:17:58.080 --> 00:18:00.480
and so then the job is to notice really

00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.960
real subtle flux

00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.080
um especially if you get into a really

00:18:07.080 --> 00:18:09.840
and then and and then these are also

00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:13.020
terms that help get you

00:18:13.020 --> 00:18:15.000
um

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.200
um

00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.419
develop a language around different

00:18:18.419 --> 00:18:20.700
phenomena like you can get into like

00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.520
these Daydream states that are filled

00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:25.500
with flow you don't even notice the flux

00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:27.960
because basically you're not mesmerized

00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:30.299
so much by what's going on you're kind

00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:32.280
of just

00:18:32.280 --> 00:18:34.380
in the state itself

00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:36.419
you know so these these different so

00:18:36.419 --> 00:18:38.580
you're exactly right it just depends

00:18:38.580 --> 00:18:42.059
upon what you're looking for and how

00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:44.580
much staccados in the experience versus

00:18:44.580 --> 00:18:49.080
how much uh Legato Legato is that the

00:18:49.080 --> 00:18:50.460
other word I gotta write that down

00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:53.460
l-e-g-a-t-o

00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:58.740
cool thank you okay so this is the

00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.559
experiment we're going to do uh share my

00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:02.880
screen

00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.919
now you don't have to do it exactly this

00:19:04.919 --> 00:19:06.059
way

00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:08.460
um it can be much Messier in Messier is

00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:10.080
probably better but I did this on

00:19:10.080 --> 00:19:13.140
PowerPoint and so what you want to do is

00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:16.380
we're going to think of our different

00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.660
experiences in our lives at different

00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:20.460
ages

00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:22.500
okay so

00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:24.720
um and it it's not meant to like you

00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.059
start at five and then you go to 10 and

00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:29.580
15 and 20 and 25. what you're going to

00:19:29.580 --> 00:19:33.480
do is is you're just going to relax

00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.320
settle back and kind of see what age do

00:19:37.320 --> 00:19:38.940
you want to start at so that's already

00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:44.039
like the age is is seeding it and you

00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:45.840
want to

00:19:45.840 --> 00:19:49.020
um okay so soon so so I'll just give an

00:19:49.020 --> 00:19:50.700
example so

00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:53.220
um so I started here

00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:56.160
why is it not working

00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.220
so I started it I started at age five

00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:01.500
and now you have to be careful because

00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:04.320
as soon as you're there something you

00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:06.840
want to know what is the first seed and

00:20:06.840 --> 00:20:09.240
I started at age five and I had this

00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:10.980
very salient

00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:14.100
view of my father

00:20:14.100 --> 00:20:18.480
um and he was in I know where he is and

00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.900
so I remembered that I was in still in

00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:23.340
my grandmother's house on the third

00:20:23.340 --> 00:20:24.419
floor

00:20:24.419 --> 00:20:27.419
and that was so Salient that as I just

00:20:27.419 --> 00:20:29.220
you know we don't want to overthink this

00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:31.860
as it was stare or there and

00:20:31.860 --> 00:20:34.500
noticing being with my father a lot of

00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:36.240
mood

00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.000
um even I could smell I started

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.360
wondering now this is not memory because

00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:43.679
this is metacognitive I started

00:20:43.679 --> 00:20:45.780
wondering why isn't my mother showing up

00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:48.179
right and this was very interesting to

00:20:48.179 --> 00:20:49.380
me

00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:50.100
um

00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:52.559
so that was more like that was just a

00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:54.720
notation it wasn't part of the memory it

00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:58.020
wasn't flowing in the memory flow it was

00:20:58.020 --> 00:21:00.780
just me letting the memory flow and then

00:21:00.780 --> 00:21:03.120
stepping back and wondering

00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:05.640
well is she gonna show up and maybe I

00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:07.740
tried to tease her into the picture a

00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:09.539
little but I don't want to overdo it and

00:21:09.539 --> 00:21:12.059
she's still not very Salient for some

00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:13.500
reason

00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:15.480
whoops

00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:20.059
oops it's not nice okay

00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.280
um and then I remember so then I see him

00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.039
where he is and I'm looking around and I

00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.799
remember that there's Blue Jays

00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.320
oh now I know why this is Salient

00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:35.940
because my father was used in my at his

00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:38.640
brother were shooting Blue Jays and I

00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.159
was watching from the third floor this

00:21:41.159 --> 00:21:43.620
was very confusing to me why they would

00:21:43.620 --> 00:21:46.980
be shooting Blue Jays and then that made

00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:50.880
me think of a parakeet that I had and

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:53.400
loved and

00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.480
um and then I'm St so okay that's that

00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.840
scene I remember that scene

00:22:00.840 --> 00:22:02.360
um and then

00:22:02.360 --> 00:22:05.760
I could have stayed there but I'm like

00:22:05.760 --> 00:22:09.120
okay well who else is around and I kind

00:22:09.120 --> 00:22:10.799
of looked for my mother again but then

00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:14.520
my sister was around

00:22:14.520 --> 00:22:18.419
and then by association my mom came my

00:22:18.419 --> 00:22:20.520
mom was associated with my sister I

00:22:20.520 --> 00:22:23.159
should have drawn that that that line

00:22:23.159 --> 00:22:24.780
that's weird that line should be over

00:22:24.780 --> 00:22:27.059
here with my sister not with my father

00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:30.179
and the soda shop came in because my mom

00:22:30.179 --> 00:22:32.159
and I used to walk my sister to school

00:22:32.159 --> 00:22:34.559
and then we'd go to the soda shop so

00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.500
this is this is

00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:38.600
um

00:22:38.600 --> 00:22:40.440
and

00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.919
um my this had a lot of affect and mood

00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:46.440
and salience and these were more like

00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:50.520
just signs or just uh characters that

00:22:50.520 --> 00:22:53.880
populated what was really Salient for me

00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:57.780
and so you just want to

00:22:57.780 --> 00:23:01.620
um start with something and be gentle

00:23:01.620 --> 00:23:04.620
but then you want to notice what is is

00:23:04.620 --> 00:23:08.640
it a sign is it a story so uh is it is

00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.659
it

00:23:09.659 --> 00:23:12.299
what is what is seeding the

00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:14.820
constellation of the memory

00:23:14.820 --> 00:23:17.720
does that make sense

00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:21.539
and then you know you know if that

00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:23.940
memory is done or if you find you're

00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:26.460
working it too much like a story

00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:28.140
then

00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:31.559
sit back again and think what other time

00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.780
frame seems interesting here I don't

00:23:33.780 --> 00:23:35.580
know 30. I can't remember what I was

00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:38.460
doing at 30. actually so now I see I

00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:41.940
have to start storing to to think of

00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:44.460
what I was doing at 30 and then a memory

00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:45.720
will come

00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:50.520
all right so this is what we want to see

00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:54.360
um how these things get assembled

00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:58.440
so you're going to work on this for a

00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:00.299
half an hour

00:24:00.299 --> 00:24:04.080
um and you know take breaks if if

00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:06.059
you can take breaks but if you get one

00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:07.559
or two memories

00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.320
um documented well that that would be

00:24:10.320 --> 00:24:13.919
good to uh to work with and then we'll

00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:16.200
come back it's small group so we'll come

00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.559
back and share as a group and see if we

00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:21.840
can identify some common features and

00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:25.559
learn something about this mystery of

00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:28.400
Human Experience

00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:31.799
okay I'll be around if there's questions

00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.700
just holler because I'll have my uh my

00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.340
video off and we'll come back in we'll

00:24:38.340 --> 00:24:42.260
come back nine o'clock

00:55:17.579 --> 00:55:20.480
sure

00:55:23.339 --> 00:55:28.040
okay so we want to come back

00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:30.599
and

00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:31.660
see what you got

00:55:31.660 --> 00:55:35.610
[Music]

00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:45.300
fantastic

00:55:45.300 --> 00:55:50.839
oh yeah well that that was a wild ride

00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:53.579
um

00:55:53.579 --> 00:55:57.300
yeah I I can say for sure that

00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:00.780
uh there was yeah a lot of

00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:03.240
um sensorial images a lot of

00:56:03.240 --> 00:56:06.240
associations

00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:07.500
um

00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:10.140
and I don't know maybe you can just

00:56:10.140 --> 00:56:12.359
describe one sequence

00:56:12.359 --> 00:56:14.160
um so

00:56:14.160 --> 00:56:17.819
I I started with my age of 20 and

00:56:17.819 --> 00:56:18.720
um

00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:20.220
basically at the time I studied

00:56:20.220 --> 00:56:23.880
architecture and uh yesterday we had a

00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:26.760
friend over whom I studied with so first

00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:28.680
image I had was

00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:31.339
super Salient him sitting in the studio

00:56:31.339 --> 00:56:34.260
back then with the shutters and the

00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:37.020
light coming through and even

00:56:37.020 --> 00:56:41.460
and I factorious sense of um

00:56:41.460 --> 00:56:44.099
the cut Styrofoam which was quite

00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:45.420
aggressive

00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:48.420
so really good to know that

00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:49.200
um

00:56:49.200 --> 00:56:53.760
and then I it jumped into the flat I I

00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.160
used to live back then

00:56:56.160 --> 00:56:59.460
uh into a moment I remember but it was

00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:02.640
quite uh intense which was I was really

00:57:02.640 --> 00:57:04.500
stressed back then before our

00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:07.859
presentation so I couldn't sleep often

00:57:07.859 --> 00:57:11.099
and I yeah I had really I felt

00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:13.859
this anxiety in a way so it was quite

00:57:13.859 --> 00:57:16.380
bodily

00:57:16.380 --> 00:57:17.640
um

00:57:17.640 --> 00:57:19.920
and

00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.680
yeah and then this draw drew me to the

00:57:22.680 --> 00:57:23.880
professor

00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:28.680
who basically induced this anxiety in me

00:57:28.680 --> 00:57:30.960
whom I worked for afterwards but I saw

00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:33.900
her face and and all her details

00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:36.000
but not really in a situation just like

00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.180
her her presence basically

00:57:39.180 --> 00:57:39.900
um

00:57:39.900 --> 00:57:42.540
yeah and then it goes on and on but it

00:57:42.540 --> 00:57:44.940
was really I don't yeah really

00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:47.700
interesting to see I think for me I mean

00:57:47.700 --> 00:57:49.859
I went to University and then to my

00:57:49.859 --> 00:57:51.900
school and so on but it was always kind

00:57:51.900 --> 00:57:55.260
of location based and it was often like

00:57:55.260 --> 00:57:58.140
a mood within the space and then there

00:57:58.140 --> 00:57:59.700
was a lot of that triggered a lot of

00:57:59.700 --> 00:58:03.000
images and faces and

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.460
just my position within

00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:09.180
the space field yeah so this is

00:58:09.180 --> 00:58:12.839
excellent because now it's it's

00:58:12.839 --> 00:58:13.859
um

00:58:13.859 --> 00:58:16.380
I just wanted to say this caveat and

00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:18.619
people remember in many different ways

00:58:18.619 --> 00:58:22.859
but what we do know is that

00:58:22.859 --> 00:58:26.119
um human memory at this scale actually

00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:29.160
uses the same

00:58:29.160 --> 00:58:29.900
um

00:58:29.900 --> 00:58:35.160
nervous uh Pathways that in animals are

00:58:35.160 --> 00:58:39.240
called Place cells that there that the

00:58:39.240 --> 00:58:42.599
place sells allows us see a PL and I'm

00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:43.859
not going to get into the Neuroscience

00:58:43.859 --> 00:58:46.859
of it but Place cells have also a

00:58:46.859 --> 00:58:49.799
temporal Dimension so you kind of know

00:58:49.799 --> 00:58:52.380
where you just where where you are now

00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:54.780
and where you're going so there's it's

00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:57.119
drawn out like memory into a recent past

00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.280
a present and a future

00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:00.900
and

00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:03.359
um so you what we notice is that

00:59:03.359 --> 00:59:07.380
location is a huge part of of most

00:59:07.380 --> 00:59:10.020
people's memory whether they can they

00:59:10.020 --> 00:59:12.900
experience it or or not sometimes the

00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:15.660
location people will only feel the mood

00:59:15.660 --> 00:59:17.940
and don't realize that it's been seated

00:59:17.940 --> 00:59:20.720
by a location but location

00:59:20.720 --> 00:59:26.760
is more Salient in memory than time is

00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:32.040
but the because the time is a

00:59:32.040 --> 00:59:36.780
product of moving in a location so we

00:59:36.780 --> 00:59:39.240
usually associate memory with time you

00:59:39.240 --> 00:59:40.859
know conventionally the way we talk but

00:59:40.859 --> 00:59:44.819
it is actually uh and this is why the

00:59:44.819 --> 00:59:47.339
Greeks everybody the people have used so

00:59:47.339 --> 00:59:50.880
many mnemonic devices by

00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:52.440
you know the Greeks used to remember

00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:54.599
long text by they put this part of the

00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:57.119
text in this room in the castle because

00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:00.660
memory and location are like incredibly

01:00:00.660 --> 01:00:04.260
bound up together and this is also why

01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:06.599
for example

01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:07.980
um

01:00:07.980 --> 01:00:10.099
um

01:00:10.140 --> 01:00:11.220
um

01:00:11.220 --> 01:00:13.920
in schools you move from different rooms

01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:15.839
to learn different subjects and in

01:00:15.839 --> 01:00:18.839
Psychotherapy moving in and out of rooms

01:00:18.839 --> 01:00:21.839
can change completely different

01:00:21.839 --> 01:00:23.460
um

01:00:23.460 --> 01:00:26.099
what comes up so

01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:28.500
um this this relationship between memory

01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:30.720
and location is a big one you've spotted

01:00:30.720 --> 01:00:33.119
it you noticed it right away

01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:34.859
um

01:00:34.859 --> 01:00:37.700
excellent

01:00:39.900 --> 01:00:41.280
um hi

01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:43.680
I I was

01:00:43.680 --> 01:00:46.319
um experiencing at the beginning I was

01:00:46.319 --> 01:00:48.960
really confused because I thought how

01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:52.260
can I remember what I did at my age of

01:00:52.260 --> 01:00:53.160
five

01:00:53.160 --> 01:00:56.660
and then I um because my father always

01:00:56.660 --> 01:00:59.579
took a lot of analog pictures

01:00:59.579 --> 01:01:02.880
I remembered the images and from the

01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:06.180
images I created basically recreated the

01:01:06.180 --> 01:01:08.400
scenery and then

01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:11.640
um told myself a story and I'm not sure

01:01:11.640 --> 01:01:14.280
if it was always true and if it was at

01:01:14.280 --> 01:01:15.720
the same time

01:01:15.720 --> 01:01:19.020
but it made me in the end

01:01:19.020 --> 01:01:22.020
um come to the the apartment where I

01:01:22.020 --> 01:01:25.559
grew up until I was you know 13.

01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:28.500
and it's crazy because I was wandering

01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:30.240
through the whole apartment and I was

01:01:30.240 --> 01:01:33.420
not there for 20 years so but I

01:01:33.420 --> 01:01:37.020
remembered nearly everything or I I at

01:01:37.020 --> 01:01:39.540
least had the feelings again from the

01:01:39.540 --> 01:01:41.220
whole space and I've never done that

01:01:41.220 --> 01:01:43.680
again since then

01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:47.220
I really feel in this in this place now

01:01:47.220 --> 01:01:49.079
it's it's crazy

01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:51.119
um yeah so that's a really good report

01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:53.400
because you notice you storied it first

01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:55.380
you know like you were looking at your

01:01:55.380 --> 01:01:57.619
pictures and then there's some stories

01:01:57.619 --> 01:01:59.400
and

01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:01.200
um and

01:02:01.200 --> 01:02:03.960
yeah and then you notice that then the

01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:05.880
fragments came they were more like real

01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:08.700
memory you know versus

01:02:08.700 --> 01:02:11.880
um story and stuff so so yeah so that's

01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:13.319
a good report because what we're trying

01:02:13.319 --> 01:02:15.240
we're interested in all your stories

01:02:15.240 --> 01:02:17.760
like your memories but but this notion

01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:20.760
of being able to track and feel

01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.220
how it assembles itself is really the

01:02:23.220 --> 01:02:26.160
exercise uh so that was a really good

01:02:26.160 --> 01:02:28.200
report

01:02:28.200 --> 01:02:30.260
um

01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:35.180
foreign

01:02:35.460 --> 01:02:37.920
so I have two like different modes of

01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:40.020
working with it like the one pretty much

01:02:40.020 --> 01:02:42.420
similar to describe a pick the age and

01:02:42.420 --> 01:02:44.520
then I sort of started thinking of the

01:02:44.520 --> 01:02:46.680
context my life was in and from that

01:02:46.680 --> 01:02:48.720
context or the location a couple of

01:02:48.720 --> 01:02:51.119
memories came in and sometimes I just

01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:52.859
stayed with it and then associations

01:02:52.859 --> 01:02:54.839
came in like one event linked to another

01:02:54.839 --> 01:02:56.700
and sort of sort of stream of events

01:02:56.700 --> 01:02:58.500
came up with different

01:02:58.500 --> 01:03:00.000
um with different memories like like

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:02.099
Jacob described and then I took your

01:03:02.099 --> 01:03:03.900
prompt and said I I took delivered to

01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:06.059
breaks and kind of just stopped it and

01:03:06.059 --> 01:03:09.059
sat for a while and sometimes nothing

01:03:09.059 --> 01:03:10.740
happened for a while it was just sitting

01:03:10.740 --> 01:03:12.119
there with the body just feeding the

01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:14.819
body and nothing happened and sometimes

01:03:14.819 --> 01:03:17.400
out of that another memory came up from

01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:19.680
I don't know where that was like the

01:03:19.680 --> 01:03:21.420
thing I can't pin and the interesting

01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:24.119
thing is sometimes I looked around and

01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:25.799
then something in the room sort of

01:03:25.799 --> 01:03:28.020
prompted me a memory of something else

01:03:28.020 --> 01:03:30.420
for example when you spoke of Nick Lane

01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:32.460
I Googled Nick Lane and had the the book

01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:35.040
of oxygen there and that took me back to

01:03:35.040 --> 01:03:37.319
a chemist class I had when I was 16

01:03:37.319 --> 01:03:39.299
remembering the teacher the class and

01:03:39.299 --> 01:03:41.280
how I was goofing around the last row

01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:43.079
with the other boys and stuff like that

01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:45.960
so context specific but lots of prompts

01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:47.400
actually coming from the present

01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:49.859
triggering stuff to sort of go back and

01:03:49.859 --> 01:03:52.920
in into different modes of memory so

01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:55.260
those are signs I was I didn't have a

01:03:55.260 --> 01:03:57.359
good way to describe it but that you

01:03:57.359 --> 01:04:00.119
know a sign is like something here and

01:04:00.119 --> 01:04:03.960
then it it's a sign you know it's like

01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:07.020
when you're psychotic you think so now

01:04:07.020 --> 01:04:09.720
you understand something about psychosis

01:04:09.720 --> 01:04:13.619
that signs prompt memories and and you

01:04:13.619 --> 01:04:15.180
start to think that there's signs

01:04:15.180 --> 01:04:18.119
everywhere because of this normal way

01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:21.960
signs can do this but if this is if

01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:23.940
you're hypersensitive to the process

01:04:23.940 --> 01:04:26.640
you'll feel you can feel psychotic right

01:04:26.640 --> 01:04:29.520
why did that book just come up ah what

01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:30.960
you know like

01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:34.140
um yeah so this that's that's a great

01:04:34.140 --> 01:04:36.480
um example and I didn't have really good

01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.180
words for it so I'm glad that came up of

01:04:39.180 --> 01:04:41.400
of signs

01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:42.480
um

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:44.760
some people live

01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:48.420
um it's a common uh experience for

01:04:48.420 --> 01:04:51.059
people who are first meditating

01:04:51.059 --> 01:04:52.079
um

01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:54.299
this is why this theory of the body is

01:04:54.299 --> 01:04:56.880
helpful because a lot of people have

01:04:56.880 --> 01:05:00.359
these kind of transitory psychotic

01:05:00.359 --> 01:05:02.339
things because

01:05:02.339 --> 01:05:04.380
things in the present become Salient

01:05:04.380 --> 01:05:06.540
with memories in the past and then they

01:05:06.540 --> 01:05:07.920
think that

01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:12.000
there are that realities populated with

01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:14.220
synchronicities which it can be but not

01:05:14.220 --> 01:05:17.160
at this level of psychosis and so uh

01:05:17.160 --> 01:05:19.140
yeah that's a very good report thank you

01:05:19.140 --> 01:05:21.180
does everybody understand like what we

01:05:21.180 --> 01:05:22.920
like that might not have happened to you

01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:27.079
but this this component of it yeah

01:05:39.780 --> 01:05:44.599
I was uh struck by this kind of like

01:05:45.780 --> 01:05:48.900
interesting set of dynamics that that I

01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:51.540
saw in a couple of ways one was that

01:05:51.540 --> 01:05:54.299
like the very much play Space so I

01:05:54.299 --> 01:05:58.319
thought of myself at 13 and then I like

01:05:58.319 --> 01:06:01.440
immediately remembered this standing on

01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:03.180
the bema in the synagogue of my bar

01:06:03.180 --> 01:06:04.859
mitzvah but like I couldn't there were

01:06:04.859 --> 01:06:05.819
no people

01:06:05.819 --> 01:06:08.400
but the place and the feel of the

01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:10.619
architecture of the place

01:06:10.619 --> 01:06:12.900
and even like what the seats look like

01:06:12.900 --> 01:06:14.280
and all these things they were they were

01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:17.780
clear but like

01:06:17.819 --> 01:06:19.680
there was kind of no relationality to

01:06:19.680 --> 01:06:22.200
other humans there was just this blur

01:06:22.200 --> 01:06:24.720
and then that made me curious about that

01:06:24.720 --> 01:06:26.339
and then suddenly I was at another part

01:06:26.339 --> 01:06:28.680
of that day and

01:06:28.680 --> 01:06:30.900
the forms of the people were still a

01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:32.819
blur but they were clearer that there

01:06:32.819 --> 01:06:34.680
were people and then like somebody

01:06:34.680 --> 01:06:37.740
emerged out of that and then that

01:06:37.740 --> 01:06:40.500
person's relationship to my mother

01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:43.619
like popped up and then you know there

01:06:43.619 --> 01:06:45.140
was this like crazy

01:06:45.140 --> 01:06:48.059
connecting slide through time and space

01:06:48.059 --> 01:06:51.180
of all of these memories again that were

01:06:51.180 --> 01:06:54.480
located specifically

01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:56.520
um but where me and my mom were seeing

01:06:56.520 --> 01:06:59.460
my mom in particular places

01:06:59.460 --> 01:07:01.980
um that went from my childhood all the

01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:04.079
way into my adulthood when she died like

01:07:04.079 --> 01:07:07.799
just kind of this like you know

01:07:07.799 --> 01:07:10.380
it it felt like it was a structure that

01:07:10.380 --> 01:07:12.599
existed I have no idea whether it did or

01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:14.460
not like that I was on some kind of ride

01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:16.380
that had its own form but I didn't know

01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:18.780
where it was going to go next

01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:20.280
um and then I kind of got off the ride

01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:23.039
and I was like wow that was

01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:24.839
Wild

01:07:24.839 --> 01:07:26.099
um and

01:07:26.099 --> 01:07:28.440
I was thinking about

01:07:28.440 --> 01:07:32.180
after sitting for a while I

01:07:33.180 --> 01:07:36.119
was thinking about a time when I was

01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:39.000
17 or 18. um

01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:40.380
but I was

01:07:40.380 --> 01:07:42.599
on a substantial amount of LSD with some

01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:44.460
friends and we were sitting in a tree

01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:46.619
myself and one of the other friends

01:07:46.619 --> 01:07:48.539
and uh he was having a really hard time

01:07:48.539 --> 01:07:51.240
and we were sort of like engaged in this

01:07:51.240 --> 01:07:53.339
dialogue about like whether it was the

01:07:53.339 --> 01:07:54.780
acid or whether it was the nature of

01:07:54.780 --> 01:07:56.460
reality like one of these things but

01:07:56.460 --> 01:07:59.720
it's like a particularly

01:07:59.720 --> 01:08:01.740
numinous moment

01:08:01.740 --> 01:08:03.960
both in my life and in my relationship

01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:06.480
to working with psychedelics

01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:07.440
um

01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:11.099
and that like

01:08:11.099 --> 01:08:16.560
feeling into and kind of seeing both the

01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:19.080
physical dynamics of the tree and the

01:08:19.080 --> 01:08:21.839
night sky and you know the grass and the

01:08:21.839 --> 01:08:23.100
smell of honeysuckle because it was in

01:08:23.100 --> 01:08:25.259
the summertime but also feeling into

01:08:25.259 --> 01:08:27.359
kind of the um

01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:30.000
psychedelic energetic template of what

01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:31.620
it was like then did this really

01:08:31.620 --> 01:08:33.839
interesting thing where

01:08:33.839 --> 01:08:35.580
it took me

01:08:35.580 --> 01:08:37.679
into a bunch of other

01:08:37.679 --> 01:08:39.900
medicine experiences throughout my life

01:08:39.900 --> 01:08:42.839
and the way that like on the one hand

01:08:42.839 --> 01:08:45.239
they had a sort of like

01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:47.940
a spatial path right that could be

01:08:47.940 --> 01:08:50.819
traced but on the other hand while that

01:08:50.819 --> 01:08:53.520
path felt like it was something specific

01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:56.699
at the same time the Resonance of the

01:08:56.699 --> 01:08:58.739
qualitative dynamics of the experiences

01:08:58.739 --> 01:09:00.960
seem to be also structuring the path

01:09:00.960 --> 01:09:03.779
even though if this makes sense they on

01:09:03.779 --> 01:09:05.460
one level seem to be independent things

01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:07.020
but on the other hand they were clearly

01:09:07.020 --> 01:09:09.660
the same phenomenon

01:09:09.660 --> 01:09:13.259
um and where in the spatialization of

01:09:13.259 --> 01:09:15.239
feeling like myself

01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:18.120
moving through the tunnel or on the

01:09:18.120 --> 01:09:20.400
slide or what have you also noticing

01:09:20.400 --> 01:09:23.400
where my eyes were going

01:09:23.400 --> 01:09:25.980
right in terms of looking up and to the

01:09:25.980 --> 01:09:28.080
left or down into the right or you know

01:09:28.080 --> 01:09:30.000
sort of like down into the center it was

01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:30.900
just

01:09:30.900 --> 01:09:34.560
interesting yeah to observe all of these

01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:36.179
you know

01:09:36.179 --> 01:09:38.339
phenomenon that were that are happening

01:09:38.339 --> 01:09:42.540
as uh physical sensorial Sensations in

01:09:42.540 --> 01:09:45.660
the body right in the present

01:09:45.660 --> 01:09:47.759
and as memory at the same time and how

01:09:47.759 --> 01:09:49.319
there's kind of like these different

01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:51.839
layers of what can be observed in that

01:09:51.839 --> 01:09:54.000
process

01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:56.699
yeah I'm really enjoying this like I I

01:09:56.699 --> 01:09:58.560
want to go a little meta on this we have

01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.440
time and that is notice how much

01:10:01.440 --> 01:10:03.540
different this is from doing like

01:10:03.540 --> 01:10:05.280
vipassana

01:10:05.280 --> 01:10:08.520
like and there's a couple of different

01:10:08.520 --> 01:10:11.880
uh reasons why now some people they have

01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:13.980
a like diamond approach sometimes you

01:10:13.980 --> 01:10:16.199
could say they're doing vipassana but

01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:18.300
they're doing a lot a little more like

01:10:18.300 --> 01:10:20.100
this so I'm just saying like hardcore

01:10:20.100 --> 01:10:24.780
fasana and so so

01:10:24.780 --> 01:10:27.600
one is uh

01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:30.600
the quality of attending is much gentler

01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:33.000
right so I love what torson said then I

01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:34.860
just stopped and then

01:10:34.860 --> 01:10:38.460
waited for the body to happen and and of

01:10:38.460 --> 01:10:41.940
course we talked last year about

01:10:41.940 --> 01:10:42.780
um

01:10:42.780 --> 01:10:46.260
um the certain gestures like when you go

01:10:46.260 --> 01:10:48.780
in to look at into internal phenomena

01:10:48.780 --> 01:10:51.600
did just you make changes what you're

01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:54.179
going to see and so like concentrated

01:10:54.179 --> 01:10:57.060
awareness very aggressive it's actually

01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:00.060
it even though it's not analytic like in

01:11:00.060 --> 01:11:01.800
conceptual it's it's actually very

01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:06.960
analytic it's and reductive like and

01:11:06.960 --> 01:11:09.360
um versus the way we're attending but

01:11:09.360 --> 01:11:11.460
the other thing is is we're two tracking

01:11:11.460 --> 01:11:14.460
there's the phenomenon and there's the

01:11:14.460 --> 01:11:16.920
embodied experience of the phenomenon

01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:19.679
which is always the background it in

01:11:19.679 --> 01:11:22.620
vipassana you get lost in the phenomenon

01:11:22.620 --> 01:11:24.659
in the mind and don't realize oh I'm

01:11:24.659 --> 01:11:26.640
sitting in a posture with certain types

01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:29.040
of you know what I'm saying and so this

01:11:29.040 --> 01:11:32.000
always says there's it's it's

01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:34.679
prioritizes experience I'm having the

01:11:34.679 --> 01:11:37.920
experience of noticing phenomenon in my

01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:39.620
mind it's always

01:11:39.620 --> 01:11:43.199
holds you in the posture of a human

01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:46.080
being having an experience rather than

01:11:46.080 --> 01:11:47.760
I'm going to go look at my mind and

01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:49.800
discover the nature of reality as if

01:11:49.800 --> 01:11:53.300
it's not preceded by an embody

01:11:53.300 --> 01:11:55.560
experience so

01:11:55.560 --> 01:11:57.659
um so what you said was perfect that

01:11:57.659 --> 01:11:58.800
brought that out because now you're

01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:00.840
noticing that the eyes have something to

01:12:00.840 --> 01:12:03.060
do with it and going in and out or

01:12:03.060 --> 01:12:05.699
taking a break so we're saying that the

01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:09.300
background sound of investigating mental

01:12:09.300 --> 01:12:13.260
phenomenon is part of the phenomena it's

01:12:13.260 --> 01:12:15.900
not just uh trivial

01:12:15.900 --> 01:12:18.540
not just trivial to it or or

01:12:18.540 --> 01:12:21.179
circumstantial and so this is really

01:12:21.179 --> 01:12:23.159
beautiful work and more people can

01:12:23.159 --> 01:12:25.500
accept it's accessible to more people

01:12:25.500 --> 01:12:28.199
because they can they can attend to

01:12:28.199 --> 01:12:30.900
their experience versus getting into

01:12:30.900 --> 01:12:34.620
like the crazy phenomenon and it and

01:12:34.620 --> 01:12:37.140
it's less much less prone to creating

01:12:37.140 --> 01:12:39.600
psychosis and stuff

01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:42.719
um so so this is what I would call Body

01:12:42.719 --> 01:12:46.260
fullness and um

01:12:46.260 --> 01:12:47.280
um

01:12:47.280 --> 01:12:49.679
yeah and and I wish

01:12:49.679 --> 01:12:52.020
it ends up

01:12:52.020 --> 01:12:55.620
not it ends up not resting on and this

01:12:55.620 --> 01:12:58.080
is of course completely consistent with

01:12:58.080 --> 01:13:01.320
your work and it ends up not resting on

01:13:01.320 --> 01:13:04.199
a metaphysics of reality but a

01:13:04.199 --> 01:13:06.420
metaphysics of experience

01:13:06.420 --> 01:13:10.140
the experiencing subject in the world

01:13:10.140 --> 01:13:11.760
um because at a certain at a certain

01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:14.580
point when you're trying to put it all

01:13:14.580 --> 01:13:16.920
together you're creating a hunch or a

01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:18.320
theory that's

01:13:18.320 --> 01:13:20.940
it's speculative so it's going to sound

01:13:20.940 --> 01:13:22.560
metaphysical

01:13:22.560 --> 01:13:23.880
um but

01:13:23.880 --> 01:13:26.820
um what we say is it is that first

01:13:26.820 --> 01:13:28.739
there's the metaphysics of experience

01:13:28.739 --> 01:13:31.739
and so there's a lot of parsimony in it

01:13:31.739 --> 01:13:35.400
it's like well if my experience is

01:13:35.400 --> 01:13:39.060
that there's location then there we

01:13:39.060 --> 01:13:41.340
don't we we don't then go and examine it

01:13:41.340 --> 01:13:43.199
we say well then it must have something

01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:45.960
to do with location like we're very

01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:50.040
naive about uh ex experience and so

01:13:50.040 --> 01:13:52.080
that's another part of this practice

01:13:52.080 --> 01:13:54.300
because

01:13:54.300 --> 01:13:56.159
you know when

01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:59.400
um they when the when people notice that

01:13:59.400 --> 01:14:01.860
look location location location you can

01:14:01.860 --> 01:14:04.140
say oh look you can find something out

01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:07.679
about tracking your experience and

01:14:07.679 --> 01:14:11.219
um yeah so it's just a different

01:14:11.219 --> 01:14:12.960
um

01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:14.699
it's different

01:14:14.699 --> 01:14:16.080
uh

01:14:16.080 --> 01:14:18.420
yeah it's an alternative it's just a

01:14:18.420 --> 01:14:20.580
different kind of approach and

01:14:20.580 --> 01:14:22.580
um

01:14:27.540 --> 01:14:30.540
John I know you you don't often like to

01:14:30.540 --> 01:14:34.400
talk but we got plenty of time here so

01:14:35.880 --> 01:14:38.040
well you heard me debating whether I

01:14:38.040 --> 01:14:39.239
should

01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:41.460
uh

01:14:41.460 --> 01:14:45.239
uh I brought notes oh good

01:14:45.239 --> 01:14:47.640
I just started early

01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:51.659
my first memory it hit me was uh and I

01:14:51.659 --> 01:14:54.060
seem to have a repeated theme I would

01:14:54.060 --> 01:14:56.520
have this great idea and then it would

01:14:56.520 --> 01:15:02.179
be downtrodden uh by situations and then

01:15:02.179 --> 01:15:05.460
it just well like for instance I had a

01:15:05.460 --> 01:15:07.320
dream when I was in

01:15:07.320 --> 01:15:08.940
fourth fifth or

01:15:08.940 --> 01:15:11.460
fourth or fifth grade and I wanted to

01:15:11.460 --> 01:15:13.140
make a play out of it it's about bears

01:15:13.140 --> 01:15:15.900
ramsaki a cabin or something like that

01:15:15.900 --> 01:15:17.760
and I got all my name a lot of my

01:15:17.760 --> 01:15:19.560
neighborhood kids and my sister involved

01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:21.679
and we put on a play in front of the

01:15:21.679 --> 01:15:25.860
garage and then uh what shocked me was

01:15:25.860 --> 01:15:28.620
one of my actor friends I really he was

01:15:28.620 --> 01:15:29.940
going to be one of the Bears he was

01:15:29.940 --> 01:15:32.699
gonna he was really great in it and uh

01:15:32.699 --> 01:15:36.060
his uncle came and watched and I froze

01:15:36.060 --> 01:15:38.580
like I do freeze here in the group you

01:15:38.580 --> 01:15:40.620
know so when my turn came on I just

01:15:40.620 --> 01:15:44.520
stumbled around like a Hulk and uh he

01:15:44.520 --> 01:15:46.380
says what am I watching this for this is

01:15:46.380 --> 01:15:49.500
crazy so he walked off so that saturated

01:15:49.500 --> 01:15:51.540
my uh you know I could have been a

01:15:51.540 --> 01:15:52.980
screenwriter and a director if

01:15:52.980 --> 01:15:55.260
everything went positive by now but

01:15:55.260 --> 01:15:58.440
that's another story but uh at the same

01:15:58.440 --> 01:16:01.739
time I was involved in my grade school

01:16:01.739 --> 01:16:05.520
um and uh oh there were the jocks and

01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:07.620
there were these uh

01:16:07.620 --> 01:16:12.840
uh like Harry Potter kids Hermione uh

01:16:12.840 --> 01:16:14.640
and and I turned into Harry Potter

01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:16.679
because they nicknamed me Sam Sampson

01:16:16.679 --> 01:16:19.860
and I would go harass the jocks and they

01:16:19.860 --> 01:16:21.780
would all be behind me and support me so

01:16:21.780 --> 01:16:24.480
I didn't get terrorized but then I got

01:16:24.480 --> 01:16:26.219
upgraded in sixth seventh and eighth

01:16:26.219 --> 01:16:27.540
grade I moved it from Southern

01:16:27.540 --> 01:16:32.460
California to Tucson Arizona and I uh uh

01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:34.920
I was nobody you know I had no history

01:16:34.920 --> 01:16:38.100
no friends no nothing the Boy Scouts you

01:16:38.100 --> 01:16:41.219
know was no fun uh and so I turned to

01:16:41.219 --> 01:16:43.560
reading which was a godsend and only had

01:16:43.560 --> 01:16:45.239
one friend so I turned into a bit of a

01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:50.040
recluse but then I got into the YMCA and

01:16:50.040 --> 01:16:52.380
uh in my eighth grade summer before

01:16:52.380 --> 01:16:54.900
going to the high school and I I went

01:16:54.900 --> 01:16:57.780
from 160 pounds believe it or not down

01:16:57.780 --> 01:17:00.840
to a good swimming weight uh because I

01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:02.820
turned into it my nickname turned out to

01:17:02.820 --> 01:17:04.679
be Pig in that school you know so I

01:17:04.679 --> 01:17:08.159
really uh you know went into really

01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:09.480
regression

01:17:09.480 --> 01:17:11.820
but then swimming brought me back out

01:17:11.820 --> 01:17:13.679
and

01:17:13.679 --> 01:17:15.840
um oh I don't know if I'm doing this

01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:17.400
right but like I've turned into a

01:17:17.400 --> 01:17:20.880
narrative uh which I'm working with Rich

01:17:20.880 --> 01:17:23.219
Von Dale I'm seeing you know we need to

01:17:23.219 --> 01:17:25.380
have an emergence from these narratives

01:17:25.380 --> 01:17:27.780
and work with the fractal flow

01:17:27.780 --> 01:17:30.840
and um and I'm realizing I'm doing that

01:17:30.840 --> 01:17:33.480
right now in my life right now because I

01:17:33.480 --> 01:17:35.640
went back to Southern California in high

01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:38.520
school and I was a good swimmer but I

01:17:38.520 --> 01:17:39.960
went to a high school without a swimming

01:17:39.960 --> 01:17:43.020
pool so I there again I didn't have any

01:17:43.020 --> 01:17:45.420
status or anything but I made good

01:17:45.420 --> 01:17:47.340
friends and whatnot I went to college

01:17:47.340 --> 01:17:51.239
College you know dissipated I went to uh

01:17:51.239 --> 01:17:53.520
moved from Southern California to to

01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:56.280
another place and uh I was kind of a

01:17:56.280 --> 01:17:58.320
nobody but I built myself into a little

01:17:58.320 --> 01:18:01.199
bit of a somebody and but always a

01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:04.739
better with a recluse and Independence

01:18:04.739 --> 01:18:07.739
and I'm kind of doing that right now uh

01:18:07.739 --> 01:18:11.340
with my uh business I my wife was the

01:18:11.340 --> 01:18:14.580
head up person and I was the person that

01:18:14.580 --> 01:18:15.840
supported her

01:18:15.840 --> 01:18:18.780
and uh that's what I'm doing when I move

01:18:18.780 --> 01:18:21.840
my business from uh uh me the

01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:23.580
traditional my Elder traditionalist

01:18:23.580 --> 01:18:26.580
going into with the Millennials now I'm

01:18:26.580 --> 01:18:29.460
you know sitting in the background but

01:18:29.460 --> 01:18:32.219
that goes back to my uh memory patterns

01:18:32.219 --> 01:18:34.620
of working like with Don Juan and

01:18:34.620 --> 01:18:39.719
costanada where uh Don Juan uh was the

01:18:39.719 --> 01:18:40.500
Great

01:18:40.500 --> 01:18:43.800
Shaman and that's who my wife was she

01:18:43.800 --> 01:18:46.020
was a great song and Shaman so I was a

01:18:46.020 --> 01:18:48.239
support person behind them but actually

01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:51.420
Don Juan put casaneta out front then Don

01:18:51.420 --> 01:18:54.239
Juan Casa native brought down on into

01:18:54.239 --> 01:18:56.340
prominence and all Don Juan wanted me at

01:18:56.340 --> 01:18:59.219
the source of her behind all of this

01:18:59.219 --> 01:19:01.860
and I'm trying to develop uh my

01:19:01.860 --> 01:19:04.140
situation now with the Millennials and

01:19:04.140 --> 01:19:06.900
they're doing some things that uh might

01:19:06.900 --> 01:19:08.640
walk into the modern business model that

01:19:08.640 --> 01:19:11.580
I don't want to follow so I need to be I

01:19:11.580 --> 01:19:13.199
need to talk to them and I'm getting the

01:19:13.199 --> 01:19:15.239
strength and the character to do that so

01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:16.920
I got to come out of my shell and be

01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:19.800
whoever I am I don't know this is just

01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:21.780
what I went into a narrative and now I'm

01:19:21.780 --> 01:19:25.140
trying to emerge into the real me which

01:19:25.140 --> 01:19:27.120
is more like a Don Juan in the

01:19:27.120 --> 01:19:28.920
background because you know I don't want

01:19:28.920 --> 01:19:30.360
I don't have the energy to go out there

01:19:30.360 --> 01:19:32.219
and do all this wild stuff that you're

01:19:32.219 --> 01:19:35.000
doing Bonnie

01:19:35.840 --> 01:19:39.000
yeah something that changed next year

01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:42.120
but that's enough no no so so yeah so

01:19:42.120 --> 01:19:44.580
this is correctly interpreted it's a lot

01:19:44.580 --> 01:19:47.100
of narrative and I what I hear is that

01:19:47.100 --> 01:19:48.840
you in story

01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:50.940
these these

01:19:50.940 --> 01:19:53.520
there's like fractals like there's the

01:19:53.520 --> 01:19:55.320
end story here and then you moved and

01:19:55.320 --> 01:19:56.880
then there's an end store almost like

01:19:56.880 --> 01:20:00.900
this yeah like a lot of flux in in yours

01:20:00.900 --> 01:20:04.500
because it's like you know you started

01:20:04.500 --> 01:20:06.719
swimming and then all now the next

01:20:06.719 --> 01:20:08.159
memory you do it's something else

01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:10.500
because I suppose your your parents

01:20:10.500 --> 01:20:12.960
moved you around a lot I guess

01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:15.480
yeah like military dad or something

01:20:15.480 --> 01:20:17.940
civil engineer Corps of Engineers yeah

01:20:17.940 --> 01:20:19.860
she was going to my dad was building

01:20:19.860 --> 01:20:22.500
Minuteman bases you know so during the

01:20:22.500 --> 01:20:24.060
Cold War yeah

01:20:24.060 --> 01:20:27.140
hold on one second

01:20:30.080 --> 01:20:33.199
come on

01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:43.080
um Howie and Marie did you want to ask a

01:20:43.080 --> 01:20:46.880
question or a comment before

01:20:46.880 --> 01:20:50.039
[Music]

01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:54.300
um I can jump in and

01:20:54.300 --> 01:20:57.060
um first just a clarification was this

01:20:57.060 --> 01:20:59.280
in groups or was this an individual

01:20:59.280 --> 01:21:02.640
thing like a meditation that you asked

01:21:02.640 --> 01:21:03.980
us to do

01:21:03.980 --> 01:21:07.140
we worked on creating a memory by

01:21:07.140 --> 01:21:09.420
ourselves and then we came back and

01:21:09.420 --> 01:21:11.219
because it's a small group we didn't

01:21:11.219 --> 01:21:13.199
we're having the conversation all

01:21:13.199 --> 01:21:16.640
together not in breakout groups

01:21:16.679 --> 01:21:17.460
um

01:21:17.460 --> 01:21:19.920
so

01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:20.940
um

01:21:20.940 --> 01:21:24.120
so I'm I'm presuming that had I gone

01:21:24.120 --> 01:21:25.860
through the exercise

01:21:25.860 --> 01:21:29.100
um I have a really spotty memory of my

01:21:29.100 --> 01:21:31.800
childhood and

01:21:31.800 --> 01:21:32.880
um

01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:35.159
so

01:21:35.159 --> 01:21:37.980
and I'm assuming that's because

01:21:37.980 --> 01:21:41.820
I didn't I moved around a lot and I

01:21:41.820 --> 01:21:44.820
don't have a lot of photos from the

01:21:44.820 --> 01:21:47.520
period or from different periods of My

01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:48.719
Life

01:21:48.719 --> 01:21:51.300
um I don't have brothers and sisters so

01:21:51.300 --> 01:21:54.659
there's not a lot of signs that

01:21:54.659 --> 01:21:56.520
um are

01:21:56.520 --> 01:21:58.620
um so the locations are all different

01:21:58.620 --> 01:22:01.260
and

01:22:01.260 --> 01:22:02.280
um

01:22:02.280 --> 01:22:06.420
so yeah I guess I'm um it's not really a

01:22:06.420 --> 01:22:09.179
question in there it's just sort of

01:22:09.179 --> 01:22:09.739
um

01:22:09.739 --> 01:22:12.600
understanding that that's

01:22:12.600 --> 01:22:14.940
yeah without the reference without the

01:22:14.940 --> 01:22:18.420
signs the memories not it's it's not

01:22:18.420 --> 01:22:20.760
lodged anywhere does that yeah yeah I

01:22:20.760 --> 01:22:23.699
know but but if you heard John like his

01:22:23.699 --> 01:22:26.520
memory is all lodged in location that

01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:29.100
always leads first

01:22:29.100 --> 01:22:31.260
versus

01:22:31.260 --> 01:22:33.420
um some people

01:22:33.420 --> 01:22:36.600
um some people so for you it might be

01:22:36.600 --> 01:22:39.960
lodged in locations too torsten's had a

01:22:39.960 --> 01:22:42.780
lot his experience today there was signs

01:22:42.780 --> 01:22:44.159
that were

01:22:44.159 --> 01:22:47.340
were being incorporated into his his

01:22:47.340 --> 01:22:52.199
memory but if you try to remember like

01:22:52.199 --> 01:22:56.400
if you're if you say Okay eight and the

01:22:56.400 --> 01:22:58.320
first thing you do is

01:22:58.320 --> 01:23:01.199
okay you got to find the location that's

01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:03.060
the story but then you see the location

01:23:03.060 --> 01:23:05.040
ah now

01:23:05.040 --> 01:23:09.300
now the memory starts to come

01:23:09.300 --> 01:23:12.600
so that I can do that but it doesn't

01:23:12.600 --> 01:23:17.000
like it'll just be landing in the place

01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:20.340
and I can remember

01:23:20.340 --> 01:23:23.520
um there might be like from eight years

01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:25.320
old

01:23:25.320 --> 01:23:28.080
I can remember

01:23:28.080 --> 01:23:30.659
um I confuse eight and nine but it just

01:23:30.659 --> 01:23:35.580
go to the place it it it there's uh

01:23:35.580 --> 01:23:38.659
just different

01:23:39.260 --> 01:23:43.320
moments of place memories of um but I

01:23:43.320 --> 01:23:46.260
can't elaborate on it like I can it'll

01:23:46.260 --> 01:23:49.199
be like the playground where I used to

01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:52.440
hang out and the

01:23:52.440 --> 01:23:55.980
um the jungle gym bars I used to like to

01:23:55.980 --> 01:23:58.820
spin or

01:23:58.980 --> 01:24:01.800
um but I can't I can't look around and

01:24:01.800 --> 01:24:03.840
see much more of that it just like yeah

01:24:03.840 --> 01:24:06.360
they're fragments yeah that's how it is

01:24:06.360 --> 01:24:08.640
for a lot of people

01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:12.179
um I think people it if we had a theory

01:24:12.179 --> 01:24:14.760
of memory before doing this work I think

01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:17.460
a lot of people I think a lot of people

01:24:17.460 --> 01:24:20.640
are surprised and can be worried about

01:24:20.640 --> 01:24:22.940
how

01:24:22.940 --> 01:24:27.900
how much they see locations now this you

01:24:27.900 --> 01:24:29.880
know could I could self-select for

01:24:29.880 --> 01:24:31.500
people who are

01:24:31.500 --> 01:24:34.199
not social but I know Marie is very

01:24:34.199 --> 01:24:37.620
social and but in fact

01:24:37.620 --> 01:24:40.440
we don't

01:24:40.440 --> 01:24:42.980
we don't we parse Our Lives by location

01:24:42.980 --> 01:24:46.199
there's fragments

01:24:46.199 --> 01:24:48.840
um uh

01:24:48.840 --> 01:24:52.040
there's mood

01:24:52.199 --> 01:24:55.880
but it's hard to

01:24:56.480 --> 01:25:00.500
extract a lot of people

01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:03.000
and I think we're usually surprised by

01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:05.400
that because our world is all filled

01:25:05.400 --> 01:25:07.140
with drama and people and you would

01:25:07.140 --> 01:25:10.800
think that that but that's not though

01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:13.980
that's the noise for the most part the

01:25:13.980 --> 01:25:17.480
noise of Our Lives Believe It or Not uh

01:25:17.480 --> 01:25:20.400
and so if you think of significant

01:25:20.400 --> 01:25:22.500
people

01:25:22.500 --> 01:25:23.820
um of course you always remember

01:25:23.820 --> 01:25:25.440
something about your mother and father

01:25:25.440 --> 01:25:28.679
but then you might be surprised that

01:25:28.679 --> 01:25:31.560
like my sister I remember the mood I

01:25:31.560 --> 01:25:34.199
remember that stupid hat she wore I

01:25:34.199 --> 01:25:36.960
remember these things about her and some

01:25:36.960 --> 01:25:39.920
events but there's no

01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:42.780
it's not it's your memory doesn't track

01:25:42.780 --> 01:25:46.380
other people's lives your memory tracks

01:25:46.380 --> 01:25:49.020
They just come and go in your life right

01:25:49.020 --> 01:25:50.580
so

01:25:50.580 --> 01:25:52.020
um

01:25:52.020 --> 01:25:53.520
but

01:25:53.520 --> 01:25:55.380
this might surprise you because if you

01:25:55.380 --> 01:25:58.199
read a good novel it's you get the

01:25:58.199 --> 01:26:01.199
impression that there are these long

01:26:01.199 --> 01:26:02.719
related

01:26:02.719 --> 01:26:05.400
everything's about you know people and

01:26:05.400 --> 01:26:08.580
people's experience with other people so

01:26:08.580 --> 01:26:09.780
um

01:26:09.780 --> 01:26:11.880
now this might be culturally specific

01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:14.760
it'd be interesting question

01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:16.860
um uh

01:26:16.860 --> 01:26:18.300
but

01:26:18.300 --> 01:26:20.760
I don't think people always worry that

01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:22.860
they don't they don't remember a lot

01:26:22.860 --> 01:26:25.320
about the people that they know that

01:26:25.320 --> 01:26:26.880
must have been

01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:29.699
critical to this so

01:26:29.699 --> 01:26:31.440
um

01:26:31.440 --> 01:26:33.659
now having said that there are some

01:26:33.659 --> 01:26:34.800
people

01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:36.780
who

01:26:36.780 --> 01:26:39.120
knew

01:26:39.120 --> 01:26:41.880
who there you know had friends in in

01:26:41.880 --> 01:26:44.159
grammar school like a circle and they

01:26:44.159 --> 01:26:45.780
and they're still friends today like

01:26:45.780 --> 01:26:48.000
their whole lives you know these these

01:26:48.000 --> 01:26:50.460
like little groups you see it sometimes

01:26:50.460 --> 01:26:52.440
on TV I don't know anyone who's still

01:26:52.440 --> 01:26:55.860
with and they probably

01:26:55.860 --> 01:26:57.900
um have more

01:26:57.900 --> 01:27:01.080
memory about you know the thread might

01:27:01.080 --> 01:27:03.780
be more of social interactions and what

01:27:03.780 --> 01:27:05.940
was happening to other people but that's

01:27:05.940 --> 01:27:08.100
the interesting conversation so anyways

01:27:08.100 --> 01:27:10.800
the whole point is not to worry because

01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:14.040
it seems to be quite common location is

01:27:14.040 --> 01:27:17.340
key whether you moved around or not and

01:27:17.340 --> 01:27:19.920
it's quite common unless you think about

01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:21.780
it and then you story well yeah I

01:27:21.780 --> 01:27:24.659
remember that was my friend okay now I

01:27:24.659 --> 01:27:26.460
remember that my friend Diane Brooklyn

01:27:26.460 --> 01:27:29.600
oh and I remember what the those stupid

01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:33.179
sports uniforms were but I'm looking at

01:27:33.179 --> 01:27:36.239
photographs stuff like that

01:27:36.239 --> 01:27:37.679
um

01:27:37.679 --> 01:27:40.400
uh

01:27:41.280 --> 01:27:44.880
so just noticing noticing those

01:27:44.880 --> 01:27:46.440
um it doesn't mean you have a bad memory

01:27:46.440 --> 01:27:49.320
it's just what how your memory assembles

01:27:49.320 --> 01:27:51.239
stuff

01:27:51.239 --> 01:27:53.239
um

01:28:01.560 --> 01:28:04.260
that's how so

01:28:04.260 --> 01:28:06.060
um stop

01:28:06.060 --> 01:28:08.699
he was dreaming and then then he thinks

01:28:08.699 --> 01:28:11.040
he's barking at something real

01:28:11.040 --> 01:28:13.620
um so what are the things to also notice

01:28:13.620 --> 01:28:16.380
then about memory is

01:28:16.380 --> 01:28:17.699
um

01:28:17.699 --> 01:28:20.219
um yeah Marie are you gonna say

01:28:20.219 --> 01:28:22.380
something well I there's a question in

01:28:22.380 --> 01:28:25.860
there it's about the relationship with

01:28:25.860 --> 01:28:31.500
um Longing To memory so I I

01:28:31.500 --> 01:28:34.460
so people that are no longer here

01:28:34.460 --> 01:28:37.199
occasionally they'll you know I'll get

01:28:37.199 --> 01:28:40.679
into a space where I'll I'll be

01:28:40.679 --> 01:28:42.900
reflecting on the person and missing

01:28:42.900 --> 01:28:44.400
what they

01:28:44.400 --> 01:28:46.500
um what they brought to my life and

01:28:46.500 --> 01:28:48.739
trying to lean into

01:28:48.739 --> 01:28:51.360
remembering more about them

01:28:51.360 --> 01:28:52.860
and

01:28:52.860 --> 01:28:56.120
um and trying to call up the the

01:28:56.120 --> 01:28:59.040
relationship or different interactions

01:28:59.040 --> 01:29:02.580
and and and sort of that grasping for

01:29:02.580 --> 01:29:06.980
memory yeah the wondering about that

01:29:06.980 --> 01:29:08.639
yeah

01:29:08.639 --> 01:29:08.870
um

01:29:08.870 --> 01:29:10.440
[Music]

01:29:10.440 --> 01:29:12.000
so

01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:14.040
I can there's certain you know I've had

01:29:14.040 --> 01:29:15.480
so many animals but there's certain

01:29:15.480 --> 01:29:18.900
animals in my life that are like one of

01:29:18.900 --> 01:29:21.900
one of the you know once in a lifetime

01:29:21.900 --> 01:29:24.000
um although I've had a couple like this

01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:26.699
one dog that I used to have

01:29:26.699 --> 01:29:30.960
I sometimes if I go to sleep I can I can

01:29:30.960 --> 01:29:34.620
play a game where

01:29:34.739 --> 01:29:37.860
I can see her but the feeling tone of

01:29:37.860 --> 01:29:39.540
being with her comes over me which was

01:29:39.540 --> 01:29:40.860
very beautiful her name was Sweet

01:29:40.860 --> 01:29:43.320
Georgia Brown and it puts me in a state

01:29:43.320 --> 01:29:45.840
and then if I sleep I can have a very

01:29:45.840 --> 01:29:48.420
lucid dream I mean it's like she's come

01:29:48.420 --> 01:29:50.760
back from

01:29:50.760 --> 01:29:53.159
the dead you know what I mean like these

01:29:53.159 --> 01:29:56.520
feelings that they're actually present

01:29:56.520 --> 01:29:59.820
um so for me it starts with that feeling

01:29:59.820 --> 01:30:02.400
of what it was to be like in her

01:30:02.400 --> 01:30:04.320
presence now having said that a few

01:30:04.320 --> 01:30:07.679
years ago I got this other dog that

01:30:07.679 --> 01:30:12.480
was very very scared he'd been feral and

01:30:12.480 --> 01:30:14.960
they had them at this this

01:30:14.960 --> 01:30:18.719
Feed Supply Barn supply store looking

01:30:18.719 --> 01:30:21.420
for a home and I looked down he was

01:30:21.420 --> 01:30:24.120
hiding underneath the desk and he looked

01:30:24.120 --> 01:30:26.699
up at me and I'm like

01:30:26.699 --> 01:30:29.880
foreign no you don't need another dog he

01:30:29.880 --> 01:30:32.159
looks like Georgia Brown

01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:35.280
but anyways he's my dog now and he's and

01:30:35.280 --> 01:30:38.219
now in my memory it's very hard they're

01:30:38.219 --> 01:30:41.100
they're they're getting to be mushed up

01:30:41.100 --> 01:30:44.760
like which one like in 20 years was that

01:30:44.760 --> 01:30:47.159
George Brown I did that or was that I

01:30:47.159 --> 01:30:50.100
wouldn't I wouldn't know I can feel them

01:30:50.100 --> 01:30:52.320
occupying the Same Heart space and

01:30:52.320 --> 01:30:55.800
becoming one and so this to me makes me

01:30:55.800 --> 01:30:58.560
feel like reincarnation you know like

01:30:58.560 --> 01:31:01.560
the way these things get

01:31:01.560 --> 01:31:06.300
I can feel that process happening and

01:31:06.300 --> 01:31:07.080
um

01:31:07.080 --> 01:31:09.719
uh

01:31:09.719 --> 01:31:12.360
yeah so in this in this category memory

01:31:12.360 --> 01:31:14.760
it's if you're like me you can there's

01:31:14.760 --> 01:31:16.500
all kinds of ways you can play play

01:31:16.500 --> 01:31:19.440
around it with it there's not we're not

01:31:19.440 --> 01:31:21.900
trying to get at one

01:31:21.900 --> 01:31:25.139
one solution that memory is is much more

01:31:25.139 --> 01:31:27.060
interesting but

01:31:27.060 --> 01:31:28.800
the other thing that's interesting about

01:31:28.800 --> 01:31:31.139
it is

01:31:31.139 --> 01:31:32.400
um

01:31:32.400 --> 01:31:36.239
um the the whole the whole field of

01:31:36.239 --> 01:31:40.560
um body language in in Trials uh has a

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:43.739
lot to do with people knowing how memory

01:31:43.739 --> 01:31:46.320
works and what's a memory and what's a

01:31:46.320 --> 01:31:48.060
fabrication

01:31:48.060 --> 01:31:51.060
um and uh

01:31:51.060 --> 01:31:51.360
[Music]

01:31:51.360 --> 01:31:53.360
um

01:31:55.860 --> 01:31:58.560
yeah so

01:31:58.560 --> 01:32:00.840
um a lot of a lot of there's a lot of

01:32:00.840 --> 01:32:03.000
science around memory in that in that

01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:04.380
way

01:32:04.380 --> 01:32:06.500
um

01:32:06.719 --> 01:32:09.600
like you could tell

01:32:09.600 --> 01:32:12.120
if it's true memory

01:32:12.120 --> 01:32:14.639
and you're asking details

01:32:14.639 --> 01:32:16.260
someone would say something just like

01:32:16.260 --> 01:32:18.360
Torsten said I don't know and then the

01:32:18.360 --> 01:32:20.639
next thing I know was a couple of months

01:32:20.639 --> 01:32:23.100
later because there are gaps but when

01:32:23.100 --> 01:32:25.620
people are fabricating stories they fill

01:32:25.620 --> 01:32:27.600
in the gaps for you because they're too

01:32:27.600 --> 01:32:29.580
afraid to have gaps

01:32:29.580 --> 01:32:32.760
and and that's storytelling and then and

01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:35.820
then the the smart interrogator well

01:32:35.820 --> 01:32:38.639
then then only ask questions around the

01:32:38.639 --> 01:32:40.080
part you filled in because you're not

01:32:40.080 --> 01:32:42.239
actually remembering it so once it blows

01:32:42.239 --> 01:32:43.679
out of your mouth

01:32:43.679 --> 01:32:47.040
uh you've become it's ambiguous your

01:32:47.040 --> 01:32:51.300
story starts to fall apart and so

01:32:51.300 --> 01:32:53.580
um when people if you ever commit a

01:32:53.580 --> 01:32:57.900
serious crime remember to uh

01:32:57.900 --> 01:33:00.659
make up your Alibi sound like real

01:33:00.659 --> 01:33:03.260
memory

01:33:03.500 --> 01:33:06.500
foreign

01:33:07.460 --> 01:33:11.960
memory is what good memory is

01:33:18.420 --> 01:33:23.520
um I had often the situation that

01:33:23.520 --> 01:33:25.500
because my father passed away a few

01:33:25.500 --> 01:33:28.679
years ago and um for me my father was a

01:33:28.679 --> 01:33:33.300
very important person and I was always

01:33:33.300 --> 01:33:36.719
um kind of the the more connected to my

01:33:36.719 --> 01:33:37.679
father

01:33:37.679 --> 01:33:41.520
and so in the end I reprod or I was

01:33:41.520 --> 01:33:44.219
telling a story about my father how

01:33:44.219 --> 01:33:47.760
great he was and how much grief I have

01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:52.260
for what happened and um so on and then

01:33:52.260 --> 01:33:55.380
I started it's not long ago I started to

01:33:55.380 --> 01:33:58.739
talk more to my mother about her opinion

01:33:58.739 --> 01:34:02.219
and her her view and perspective on

01:34:02.219 --> 01:34:04.980
situations also within the family and

01:34:04.980 --> 01:34:06.540
with my father

01:34:06.540 --> 01:34:09.840
and I realized that I started to change

01:34:09.840 --> 01:34:13.739
my memories like on situations and that

01:34:13.739 --> 01:34:17.040
was crazy to also feel closer to my

01:34:17.040 --> 01:34:19.199
parents and to understand them in a

01:34:19.199 --> 01:34:22.620
different way but also to see

01:34:22.620 --> 01:34:26.300
how I can still like afterwards change

01:34:26.300 --> 01:34:29.639
views and perspective and feelings which

01:34:29.639 --> 01:34:33.000
already have happened already like what

01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:35.040
I experienced now about it

01:34:35.040 --> 01:34:38.100
yeah so this is very important in the

01:34:38.100 --> 01:34:40.380
process of individuation

01:34:40.380 --> 01:34:44.040
and so sometimes one of the one of the

01:34:44.040 --> 01:34:45.659
ways in which

01:34:45.659 --> 01:34:47.460
you can help people individually

01:34:47.460 --> 01:34:51.179
especially if they have kind of a

01:34:51.179 --> 01:34:54.179
an overbearing relationship with a dead

01:34:54.179 --> 01:34:56.400
parent let's say or even a living parent

01:34:56.400 --> 01:34:58.620
I mean that it's it's not necessarily

01:34:58.620 --> 01:35:01.800
unhealthy but it's over determining a

01:35:01.800 --> 01:35:06.179
lot of their psyche is you ask them to

01:35:06.179 --> 01:35:07.679
think of when you were in high school

01:35:07.679 --> 01:35:09.900
what did you used to tell your friends

01:35:09.900 --> 01:35:12.719
about your mother

01:35:12.719 --> 01:35:15.239
when then when you were here when you

01:35:15.239 --> 01:35:16.620
were this stage what did you used to

01:35:16.620 --> 01:35:18.840
tell your your your friends about your

01:35:18.840 --> 01:35:21.000
mother and you noticed the story changes

01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:24.540
depending because the present context is

01:35:24.540 --> 01:35:27.060
looking for a different kind of story so

01:35:27.060 --> 01:35:31.260
then this enables people to see what the

01:35:31.260 --> 01:35:33.600
story the the the the there's no

01:35:33.600 --> 01:35:37.199
enduring aspect of your mother that you

01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:39.840
you can understand you can't even

01:35:39.840 --> 01:35:41.760
understand an enduring aspect of

01:35:41.760 --> 01:35:43.679
yourself because there is no enduring

01:35:43.679 --> 01:35:45.239
aspect

01:35:45.239 --> 01:35:47.159
um but

01:35:47.159 --> 01:35:49.020
um uh

01:35:49.020 --> 01:35:53.219
all you can know about her is uh is the

01:35:53.219 --> 01:35:54.960
same way you can know about anyone is a

01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:57.000
different different context you know

01:35:57.000 --> 01:36:00.780
like pastiches and then you have the

01:36:00.780 --> 01:36:03.900
individuation where you what you know

01:36:03.900 --> 01:36:07.199
about your mom or your dad is they're

01:36:07.199 --> 01:36:08.940
just like you

01:36:08.940 --> 01:36:11.460
they did the best they could

01:36:11.460 --> 01:36:14.280
because it is human and and then the

01:36:14.280 --> 01:36:18.260
compassion comes right uh because

01:36:18.260 --> 01:36:20.880
everybody's like a plant growing in a

01:36:20.880 --> 01:36:23.159
different container and trying to take

01:36:23.159 --> 01:36:26.400
the shape that they are and being also

01:36:26.400 --> 01:36:29.940
bound to take the shape of the container

01:36:29.940 --> 01:36:31.679
and then the container can move and

01:36:31.679 --> 01:36:33.239
stuff like this and

01:36:33.239 --> 01:36:38.580
so uh that's that's a very good way to

01:36:38.580 --> 01:36:40.560
help people individuate but not

01:36:40.560 --> 01:36:42.120
everybody can see that their story

01:36:42.120 --> 01:36:44.159
changes you know you already have to

01:36:44.159 --> 01:36:47.159
have a certain

01:36:47.159 --> 01:36:50.760
a certain uh

01:36:50.760 --> 01:36:56.100
level of metacognition to

01:36:56.100 --> 01:36:57.179
um

01:36:57.179 --> 01:36:58.980
so you have to be tricky you have to say

01:36:58.980 --> 01:37:01.440
oh what did you tell your

01:37:01.440 --> 01:37:03.320
you know your friends when you're five

01:37:03.320 --> 01:37:05.520
and so

01:37:05.520 --> 01:37:09.600
um yeah so it becomes

01:37:09.600 --> 01:37:11.639
it becomes

01:37:11.639 --> 01:37:13.739
difficult when people think that oh

01:37:13.739 --> 01:37:15.719
that's because my mother changed not

01:37:15.719 --> 01:37:18.000
because your story changed so you have

01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:20.280
to be careful but that's a very good

01:37:20.280 --> 01:37:21.840
noticing

01:37:21.840 --> 01:37:22.860
um

01:37:22.860 --> 01:37:25.500
another thing that is not related to

01:37:25.500 --> 01:37:27.600
what you said which was great

01:37:27.600 --> 01:37:29.340
um is

01:37:29.340 --> 01:37:31.460
um

01:37:33.480 --> 01:37:35.940
when people

01:37:35.940 --> 01:37:36.600
um

01:37:36.600 --> 01:37:39.540
Force kids to remember something kids

01:37:39.540 --> 01:37:42.060
kids have even

01:37:42.060 --> 01:37:44.400
a lot of just the way you remember

01:37:44.400 --> 01:37:46.139
things in your childhood there's not a

01:37:46.139 --> 01:37:49.560
lot there part of the reasons is because

01:37:49.560 --> 01:37:52.440
kids don't put a lot of memory don't

01:37:52.440 --> 01:37:54.420
store a lot of memory they don't have

01:37:54.420 --> 01:37:59.400
enough bandwidth and when people

01:37:59.400 --> 01:38:02.460
are psychiatrists are

01:38:02.460 --> 01:38:05.340
in a certain position of power

01:38:05.340 --> 01:38:07.620
or even the teacher trying to figure out

01:38:07.620 --> 01:38:09.540
who was to blame if you put enough

01:38:09.540 --> 01:38:13.280
pressure on a kid they don't they

01:38:13.280 --> 01:38:16.440
they know they don't remember but you

01:38:16.440 --> 01:38:18.900
put enough pressure they are forced to

01:38:18.900 --> 01:38:20.580
come up with something and then they and

01:38:20.580 --> 01:38:22.500
then they lie and then they get yelled

01:38:22.500 --> 01:38:25.920
at for lying but this is this is to

01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:28.380
understand that

01:38:28.380 --> 01:38:30.480
you can't access

01:38:30.480 --> 01:38:33.380
memory

01:38:33.420 --> 01:38:35.699
under those kinds of that kind of

01:38:35.699 --> 01:38:37.739
pressure and like

01:38:37.739 --> 01:38:42.679
make someone remember it's just

01:38:43.020 --> 01:38:46.760
not the way memory works

01:39:14.900 --> 01:39:17.820
so it's

01:39:17.820 --> 01:39:20.940
that's um take me back to the very first

01:39:20.940 --> 01:39:24.900
exercise we did with this module and

01:39:24.900 --> 01:39:28.500
the questions afterwards that were kind

01:39:28.500 --> 01:39:31.739
of lingering with me were around

01:39:31.739 --> 01:39:34.860
um so we were standing in a place and I

01:39:34.860 --> 01:39:38.880
could see kind of the architecture of

01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:43.219
um uh this was a kitchen

01:39:43.320 --> 01:39:47.820
um and and then when you said do we move

01:39:47.820 --> 01:39:50.219
you know what's what's on the

01:39:50.219 --> 01:39:52.620
uh I forget the prompt but it was like

01:39:52.620 --> 01:39:55.080
what's on the counter and I couldn't

01:39:55.080 --> 01:39:58.980
remember ex I couldn't see that

01:39:58.980 --> 01:40:01.860
um but what did come up with for me was

01:40:01.860 --> 01:40:05.460
a very tactile memory of the dishes like

01:40:05.460 --> 01:40:10.260
I could even feel the the

01:40:10.260 --> 01:40:11.960
um

01:40:11.960 --> 01:40:14.880
uh whatever the pattern was around the

01:40:14.880 --> 01:40:17.100
dishes it had a little indentation and I

01:40:17.100 --> 01:40:19.560
could I could actually feel that yeah

01:40:19.560 --> 01:40:24.960
the CorningWare exactly and and then my

01:40:24.960 --> 01:40:28.980
my mind could put those dishes on the

01:40:28.980 --> 01:40:31.980
counter in a way that seemed plausible

01:40:31.980 --> 01:40:35.159
and then I was confused and is this an

01:40:35.159 --> 01:40:37.139
actual memory did I provoke an actual

01:40:37.139 --> 01:40:39.920
memory or am I making this up

01:40:39.920 --> 01:40:42.600
yeah so to me it sounds like an actual

01:40:42.600 --> 01:40:45.060
memory but I mean not an actual event

01:40:45.060 --> 01:40:48.960
but a mashed up memory

01:40:48.960 --> 01:40:50.880
um so

01:40:50.880 --> 01:40:52.620
um and that's what happens with memory

01:40:52.620 --> 01:40:55.199
over time the things that are like and

01:40:55.199 --> 01:40:58.739
similar not in time they get mashed up

01:40:58.739 --> 01:41:01.800
and then like one of the things that

01:41:01.800 --> 01:41:04.020
came forward a couple of sessions ago

01:41:04.020 --> 01:41:06.719
was someone again was worried about this

01:41:06.719 --> 01:41:09.540
it's not to be worried that you're

01:41:09.540 --> 01:41:11.460
repressing because that's how memory

01:41:11.460 --> 01:41:13.020
Works

01:41:13.020 --> 01:41:15.719
um but that

01:41:15.719 --> 01:41:18.300
there are two significant

01:41:18.300 --> 01:41:20.760
things that I could if you know you play

01:41:20.760 --> 01:41:22.199
these games what's the first thing you

01:41:22.199 --> 01:41:24.360
remember and there's two significant

01:41:24.360 --> 01:41:27.179
things that come up for me

01:41:27.179 --> 01:41:30.139
um but

01:41:30.179 --> 01:41:33.480
what happens is I've I've shared that

01:41:33.480 --> 01:41:35.400
story now a million times but a couple

01:41:35.400 --> 01:41:38.280
of times but they've all these things

01:41:38.280 --> 01:41:40.560
are very significant they also come up

01:41:40.560 --> 01:41:43.860
in my dreams and the dreams add content

01:41:43.860 --> 01:41:46.380
that's not real and now I can't tell

01:41:46.380 --> 01:41:49.260
when I go back into that memory I can't

01:41:49.260 --> 01:41:52.619
it seems more like a dream and I think

01:41:52.619 --> 01:41:54.960
it's because it's it's it's entangled

01:41:54.960 --> 01:41:57.060
with what the dreams have done about the

01:41:57.060 --> 01:41:59.340
memory and so

01:41:59.340 --> 01:42:01.739
um uh

01:42:01.739 --> 01:42:05.699
like when the nail

01:42:05.699 --> 01:42:08.520
ripped that dress

01:42:08.520 --> 01:42:11.400
in the dress I can see it's I can see

01:42:11.400 --> 01:42:14.100
the color purple it is I can see

01:42:14.100 --> 01:42:16.380
that it's on my right side I'm walking

01:42:16.380 --> 01:42:18.719
down the hallway because the house

01:42:18.719 --> 01:42:21.060
wasn't finished yet and then there's the

01:42:21.060 --> 01:42:23.100
basement stairs there

01:42:23.100 --> 01:42:25.320
I wouldn't be surprised if I walked into

01:42:25.320 --> 01:42:27.780
that house that that's not how

01:42:27.780 --> 01:42:30.600
the hallway in the stairs are

01:42:30.600 --> 01:42:32.760
because it's been

01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:36.360
in my dreams and the dream and it feels

01:42:36.360 --> 01:42:39.139
like a dream now so part of what happens

01:42:39.139 --> 01:42:42.080
is that

01:42:42.080 --> 01:42:44.699
you're just the way these things come up

01:42:44.699 --> 01:42:47.280
when Torsten just relaxed like part of

01:42:47.280 --> 01:42:49.440
what happens is something during your

01:42:49.440 --> 01:42:52.139
day will be a sign that and it brings up

01:42:52.139 --> 01:42:56.060
this dream and then the uh there's

01:42:56.060 --> 01:42:58.560
neuronal mechanisms for this but then

01:42:58.560 --> 01:43:00.600
the dream and the memory become

01:43:00.600 --> 01:43:02.699
something else

01:43:02.699 --> 01:43:06.659
and so when you remember something and

01:43:06.659 --> 01:43:08.699
then you feel like even not even from my

01:43:08.699 --> 01:43:10.860
childhood like some really Salient

01:43:10.860 --> 01:43:12.780
things have happened to me like between

01:43:12.780 --> 01:43:15.119
first encounters with people that you

01:43:15.119 --> 01:43:16.260
really

01:43:16.260 --> 01:43:18.060
uh

01:43:18.060 --> 01:43:20.460
like this one guy that I lived with for

01:43:20.460 --> 01:43:22.320
a while the whole thing is like a dream

01:43:22.320 --> 01:43:25.320
I I it's more like a dream Than A Memory

01:43:25.320 --> 01:43:27.420
it's all

01:43:27.420 --> 01:43:29.760
yeah so

01:43:29.760 --> 01:43:30.900
um

01:43:30.900 --> 01:43:33.300
so you can feel the different quality

01:43:33.300 --> 01:43:35.280
between

01:43:35.280 --> 01:43:39.800
a memory that has become so

01:43:39.800 --> 01:43:43.020
it's like you know that Dolly you know

01:43:43.020 --> 01:43:45.300
or mitt Dali they take a picture and

01:43:45.300 --> 01:43:46.500
then it

01:43:46.500 --> 01:43:49.080
it does all this Distortion with the

01:43:49.080 --> 01:43:51.360
picture it's kind of like

01:43:51.360 --> 01:43:53.159
um some of these memories it often

01:43:53.159 --> 01:43:55.139
happens with the most Salient things in

01:43:55.139 --> 01:43:56.340
your life

01:43:56.340 --> 01:43:59.119
uh become

01:43:59.119 --> 01:44:01.619
inaccessible that way because you've

01:44:01.619 --> 01:44:04.940
dreamed about them and the dream space

01:44:04.940 --> 01:44:08.880
distorts them and you can no longer

01:44:08.880 --> 01:44:12.659
tell it no longer feels real it feels

01:44:12.659 --> 01:44:15.480
very it's very trippy you're like did I

01:44:15.480 --> 01:44:17.400
dream that or is it real and the fact

01:44:17.400 --> 01:44:21.060
that you can't I like this one guy it's

01:44:21.060 --> 01:44:23.159
so dream like I don't even

01:44:23.159 --> 01:44:26.340
I sometimes I even think well that did

01:44:26.340 --> 01:44:28.500
that even actually happen to me

01:44:28.500 --> 01:44:31.920
and I know it happened to me but to have

01:44:31.920 --> 01:44:34.199
this experience of your internal life

01:44:34.199 --> 01:44:38.460
like where you can't really separate

01:44:38.460 --> 01:44:43.739
reality from imagination is common

01:44:43.739 --> 01:44:45.719
it's just that most people don't see

01:44:45.719 --> 01:44:50.900
that that that that's happening

01:44:56.580 --> 01:45:00.239
um I have one question about

01:45:00.239 --> 01:45:04.440
um the fact that in some memories I look

01:45:04.440 --> 01:45:08.159
at the image outside from like I'm in

01:45:08.159 --> 01:45:11.179
the scene but I'm looking from outside

01:45:11.179 --> 01:45:14.639
and if I feel the whole thing but I'm

01:45:14.639 --> 01:45:15.960
still not

01:45:15.960 --> 01:45:18.900
not in my role

01:45:18.900 --> 01:45:23.040
what is this like what kind of or how am

01:45:23.040 --> 01:45:26.940
I is it a um the repertoire or what is

01:45:26.940 --> 01:45:29.639
what is it okay so I'm glad you said

01:45:29.639 --> 01:45:31.739
that because that's where I would have

01:45:31.739 --> 01:45:34.500
gone with it but I didn't want to uh

01:45:34.500 --> 01:45:36.600
Prime I would have asked you have you

01:45:36.600 --> 01:45:40.100
told that story a lot of times

01:45:40.380 --> 01:45:42.300
um and if you tell the story a lot of

01:45:42.300 --> 01:45:44.400
times it becomes repertoire and so then

01:45:44.400 --> 01:45:47.820
your access to it becomes third person

01:45:47.820 --> 01:45:51.000
now if you stayed with it you could

01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:54.000
probably try to get some first person

01:45:54.000 --> 01:45:56.520
information out of it

01:45:56.520 --> 01:45:59.100
um but this question came up last time

01:45:59.100 --> 01:46:00.119
too

01:46:00.119 --> 01:46:03.060
um and again people get worried like

01:46:03.060 --> 01:46:05.760
this was really important to me and why

01:46:05.760 --> 01:46:08.580
can't I get inside the dream anymore and

01:46:08.580 --> 01:46:10.139
then the first question is have you told

01:46:10.139 --> 01:46:12.960
that story a lot of times yes oh I got

01:46:12.960 --> 01:46:14.760
it it's more of a little more of a

01:46:14.760 --> 01:46:17.219
repertoire so

01:46:17.219 --> 01:46:20.580
um yeah so that's one reason other times

01:46:20.580 --> 01:46:23.639
it's it the the whole point here is not

01:46:23.639 --> 01:46:26.159
to worry in popular psychologies you

01:46:26.159 --> 01:46:27.960
know psychologists jumped on your throat

01:46:27.960 --> 01:46:29.880
because of this almost significant part

01:46:29.880 --> 01:46:32.280
of your life and you can only see it and

01:46:32.280 --> 01:46:34.380
you must be repressed and then you know

01:46:34.380 --> 01:46:36.480
I can get you all worried and

01:46:36.480 --> 01:46:39.600
prompt you with real false memories and

01:46:39.600 --> 01:46:41.460
then keep you coming and make a lot of

01:46:41.460 --> 01:46:42.540
money

01:46:42.540 --> 01:46:44.460
um but so that repertoire is a common

01:46:44.460 --> 01:46:45.540
one

01:46:45.540 --> 01:46:48.900
um other other reasons are dreams again

01:46:48.900 --> 01:46:51.360
dreams quite often

01:46:51.360 --> 01:46:53.540
um

01:46:53.820 --> 01:46:57.420
um we like to see it as the context in

01:46:57.420 --> 01:46:59.040
which that happened to me so then that

01:46:59.040 --> 01:47:02.040
becomes the way you remember it

01:47:02.040 --> 01:47:03.179
um

01:47:03.179 --> 01:47:05.520
um and then the Third Way is actually

01:47:05.520 --> 01:47:08.820
that sometimes when you know people will

01:47:08.820 --> 01:47:09.960
say

01:47:09.960 --> 01:47:12.119
well the day I got married I walked down

01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:14.639
the aisle and I was in my body I was

01:47:14.639 --> 01:47:17.340
watching myself walk down the aisle this

01:47:17.340 --> 01:47:19.440
is common when the nervous system gets

01:47:19.440 --> 01:47:21.360
overwhelmed you take a third person

01:47:21.360 --> 01:47:23.820
perspective and then you remember that

01:47:23.820 --> 01:47:27.300
that happened correctly so

01:47:27.300 --> 01:47:29.580
um those are the different layers and

01:47:29.580 --> 01:47:34.380
and this is again a common

01:47:34.380 --> 01:47:37.760
common observation

01:47:39.719 --> 01:47:42.360
torson

01:47:42.360 --> 01:47:44.219
in perception we talked about that

01:47:44.219 --> 01:47:47.159
perception is sometimes often arousal

01:47:47.159 --> 01:47:48.840
driven and it comes from the body and

01:47:48.840 --> 01:47:51.119
then the effect is discharged onto

01:47:51.119 --> 01:47:53.100
something I remember we had like one

01:47:53.100 --> 01:47:54.600
part where you said like

01:47:54.600 --> 01:47:57.719
either it is being discharged like

01:47:57.719 --> 01:48:00.300
outward or inward into the ime mine

01:48:00.300 --> 01:48:02.340
complex and that's the identity making

01:48:02.340 --> 01:48:04.800
so if I just what happened to me like

01:48:04.800 --> 01:48:06.540
where something happened from the body

01:48:06.540 --> 01:48:08.280
there must have been some sort of

01:48:08.280 --> 01:48:10.860
arousal and I discharged it onto and the

01:48:10.860 --> 01:48:12.900
memory came so is that part of that

01:48:12.900 --> 01:48:15.060
identity making thing you described

01:48:15.060 --> 01:48:18.650
there the perception yes beautiful so

01:48:18.650 --> 01:48:19.860
[Music]

01:48:19.860 --> 01:48:21.860
um

01:48:23.520 --> 01:48:26.699
so this is the there's a there's a lot

01:48:26.699 --> 01:48:29.159
of different ways to go with this

01:48:29.159 --> 01:48:31.380
um and I'm sure that you can take it

01:48:31.380 --> 01:48:34.440
further but the first place that goes is

01:48:34.440 --> 01:48:37.320
the importance of the prompt

01:48:37.320 --> 01:48:39.659
uh I can't remember something happened

01:48:39.659 --> 01:48:42.000
that the other one but the importance of

01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:45.239
the prompt is is that when you go into

01:48:45.239 --> 01:48:48.119
your memory you are going with a value

01:48:48.119 --> 01:48:51.239
an arousal because there's a prompt and

01:48:51.239 --> 01:48:53.760
then it the arousal state has a certain

01:48:53.760 --> 01:48:57.360
value to it now I try as much as I can

01:48:57.360 --> 01:48:59.179
to make the prompts

01:48:59.179 --> 01:49:04.440
you know as as as nothing as possible or

01:49:04.440 --> 01:49:06.780
or to have different types of prompts

01:49:06.780 --> 01:49:08.460
like during this course we had different

01:49:08.460 --> 01:49:11.820
types of funds so that's exactly correct

01:49:11.820 --> 01:49:13.739
so you're going in there's an arousal

01:49:13.739 --> 01:49:17.580
State your the arousal state is wants to

01:49:17.580 --> 01:49:19.800
be matched with a memory that satisfies

01:49:19.800 --> 01:49:21.480
the arousal state

01:49:21.480 --> 01:49:23.639
and then what you did is when you took a

01:49:23.639 --> 01:49:25.920
break you reset yourself you take a

01:49:25.920 --> 01:49:28.199
break you reset yourself

01:49:28.199 --> 01:49:30.540
um so it's it's also the same there's

01:49:30.540 --> 01:49:33.060
the same same pattern

01:49:33.060 --> 01:49:37.260
and it's why uh the instruction when

01:49:37.260 --> 01:49:39.060
you're taking people to memory you know

01:49:39.060 --> 01:49:40.920
this is interesting like I've never been

01:49:40.920 --> 01:49:43.139
hypnotized and I don't know people who

01:49:43.139 --> 01:49:47.100
do hypnosis for men for memory recall

01:49:47.100 --> 01:49:50.880
um I'm I'm wondering what

01:49:50.880 --> 01:49:53.340
hypnotic suggestion

01:49:53.340 --> 01:49:55.739
how how it works with this that's just

01:49:55.739 --> 01:49:57.659
an aside but you're absolutely right

01:49:57.659 --> 01:50:00.960
it's the same formula

01:50:00.960 --> 01:50:01.679
um

01:50:01.679 --> 01:50:04.260
memory is a form of virtual perception

01:50:04.260 --> 01:50:06.600
plus imagination because what we're

01:50:06.600 --> 01:50:09.659
saying is that you don't go in and

01:50:09.659 --> 01:50:12.739
retrieve something that's stored there

01:50:12.739 --> 01:50:15.780
you go in and there's fragments that

01:50:15.780 --> 01:50:18.179
even in the process of bringing them

01:50:18.179 --> 01:50:22.100
forward get updated by imagination or

01:50:22.100 --> 01:50:27.659
uh the value that uh that is shaping it

01:50:27.659 --> 01:50:30.420
into satisfying you so

01:50:30.420 --> 01:50:32.520
so but that means memory is sort of

01:50:32.520 --> 01:50:34.920
situated on top of the whole hierarchy

01:50:34.920 --> 01:50:36.540
of the sense making up it's pretty

01:50:36.540 --> 01:50:40.320
abstract it's it's codified stuff

01:50:40.320 --> 01:50:42.239
pictures

01:50:42.239 --> 01:50:43.380
so

01:50:43.380 --> 01:50:45.840
going back to the perception the affect

01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:47.460
and the disposition

01:50:47.460 --> 01:50:49.800
wouldn't that actually require me to go

01:50:49.800 --> 01:50:51.840
back deep into the body to actually

01:50:51.840 --> 01:50:54.179
sense the threshold of the effect which

01:50:54.179 --> 01:50:56.040
is there and the arousal and stay with

01:50:56.040 --> 01:50:58.739
that instead of sort of going into all

01:50:58.739 --> 01:51:00.060
the

01:51:00.060 --> 01:51:04.850
story making of the memory yeah so

01:51:04.850 --> 01:51:06.179
[Music]

01:51:06.179 --> 01:51:08.179
um

01:51:08.699 --> 01:51:13.639
you become more embodied you become more

01:51:13.639 --> 01:51:19.500
uh active in the now Eckhart Tolle and

01:51:19.500 --> 01:51:22.199
um even in even the process of

01:51:22.199 --> 01:51:24.239
remembering something feels like

01:51:24.239 --> 01:51:25.860
something that's happening in the now

01:51:25.860 --> 01:51:29.100
it's very transparent

01:51:29.100 --> 01:51:32.699
um so so uh

01:51:32.699 --> 01:51:33.619
um

01:51:33.619 --> 01:51:36.239
eventually you

01:51:36.239 --> 01:51:37.860
lose

01:51:37.860 --> 01:51:40.199
The Narrative self once you lose a

01:51:40.199 --> 01:51:41.880
narrative self then you don't have story

01:51:41.880 --> 01:51:46.139
and so it's very hard to go back and

01:51:46.139 --> 01:51:51.060
figure out uh what What's happening and

01:51:51.060 --> 01:51:54.360
you really you get people who

01:51:54.360 --> 01:51:56.520
you know like the Laughing Buddha type

01:51:56.520 --> 01:51:59.280
Guru they don't they don't remember much

01:51:59.280 --> 01:52:00.900
of anything

01:52:00.900 --> 01:52:02.880
um or the other thing a lot of my

01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:05.760
friends what what they do is in the

01:52:05.760 --> 01:52:07.800
place of memory they have a stick they

01:52:07.800 --> 01:52:09.780
have a repertoire or stories they tell

01:52:09.780 --> 01:52:11.900
about themselves and they become like a

01:52:11.900 --> 01:52:14.400
stereotypical like one of my friends is

01:52:14.400 --> 01:52:16.260
pretty

01:52:16.260 --> 01:52:17.480
well

01:52:17.480 --> 01:52:20.940
uh practiced and he he presents as an

01:52:20.940 --> 01:52:23.400
 it's like a shtick he's just an

01:52:23.400 --> 01:52:25.139
 he's a Tai Chi teacher he's an

01:52:25.139 --> 01:52:28.199
 to everyone and it doesn't come

01:52:28.199 --> 01:52:30.960
from memory you know it's just

01:52:30.960 --> 01:52:34.560
it's just that's what he has and some of

01:52:34.560 --> 01:52:37.020
that happens to me too like there's a

01:52:37.020 --> 01:52:39.179
performative quality about a lot of when

01:52:39.179 --> 01:52:40.980
I've been teaching for so long because I

01:52:40.980 --> 01:52:43.340
don't really

01:52:43.739 --> 01:52:46.199
it's not really threaded people all

01:52:46.199 --> 01:52:48.480
perspective always wants me to write a

01:52:48.480 --> 01:52:52.380
memoir and I'm like God Bob Keegan put

01:52:52.380 --> 01:52:54.420
his arm around me and said you've got so

01:52:54.420 --> 01:52:56.460
much like what do you really want to do

01:52:56.460 --> 01:52:58.739
and I'm like I just don't have I can't

01:52:58.739 --> 01:53:01.619
answer that question I don't have a like

01:53:01.619 --> 01:53:04.440
there's no through line that it just

01:53:04.440 --> 01:53:06.960
it's just not there

01:53:06.960 --> 01:53:10.880
um so so yes if you continually

01:53:10.880 --> 01:53:14.340
deconstruct the automatic mechanisms of

01:53:14.340 --> 01:53:17.820
ordinary memory you start to

01:53:17.820 --> 01:53:19.619
um

01:53:19.619 --> 01:53:21.780
relate to life differently let's say

01:53:21.780 --> 01:53:23.040
that

01:53:23.040 --> 01:53:25.380
um uh

01:53:25.380 --> 01:53:28.080
then it becomes every experience becomes

01:53:28.080 --> 01:53:30.719
what some version of arousal through

01:53:30.719 --> 01:53:33.000
perception whether it's virtual or not

01:53:33.000 --> 01:53:36.900
toward a satisfaction that's the Rhythm

01:53:36.900 --> 01:53:39.659
of being an organism

01:53:39.659 --> 01:53:42.480
um and once you start to feel that then

01:53:42.480 --> 01:53:45.119
you are very comfortable thinking that

01:53:45.119 --> 01:53:47.340
humans are continuous with your animal

01:53:47.340 --> 01:53:49.980
nature because there's some fundamental

01:53:49.980 --> 01:53:52.080
uh

01:53:52.080 --> 01:53:55.739
fundamental Rhythm there

01:53:55.739 --> 01:53:59.280
I mean it's and it's it's not scary if

01:53:59.280 --> 01:54:00.659
you're smart enough it's not scary

01:54:00.659 --> 01:54:02.100
because if

01:54:02.100 --> 01:54:03.900
it can scare you because then you think

01:54:03.900 --> 01:54:06.239
well it's all determinism and like

01:54:06.239 --> 01:54:08.340
there's no free will but that's because

01:54:08.340 --> 01:54:10.860
you don't think animals have free will

01:54:10.860 --> 01:54:12.780
because you think of them as billiard

01:54:12.780 --> 01:54:15.860
balls so once you're not afraid that

01:54:15.860 --> 01:54:17.780
there are

01:54:17.780 --> 01:54:21.420
deterministic causal

01:54:21.420 --> 01:54:25.860
causal Powers down the stock then you

01:54:25.860 --> 01:54:28.139
get much more comfortable with realizing

01:54:28.139 --> 01:54:29.820
that you're continuous with the animal

01:54:29.820 --> 01:54:33.060
nature but if you have this problem that

01:54:33.060 --> 01:54:35.760
either I'm emergent

01:54:35.760 --> 01:54:39.179
or I have no free will like the animals

01:54:39.179 --> 01:54:41.100
then you're stuck

01:54:41.100 --> 01:54:42.900
and so

01:54:42.900 --> 01:54:45.420
um this is where working on the

01:54:45.420 --> 01:54:48.600
mentalization of you know conceptual

01:54:48.600 --> 01:54:51.600
systems can help body work really I mean

01:54:51.600 --> 01:54:53.940
because if if you're stuck you can't put

01:54:53.940 --> 01:54:56.760
put people in that position you know

01:54:56.760 --> 01:55:01.320
either I'm different than nature or I'm

01:55:01.320 --> 01:55:03.600
conditioned and determined like nature

01:55:03.600 --> 01:55:05.159
like

01:55:05.159 --> 01:55:08.820
it's it's it's it's a double bind so you

01:55:08.820 --> 01:55:11.400
eventually work your way into thinking

01:55:11.400 --> 01:55:13.020
well there's something wrong with how I

01:55:13.020 --> 01:55:14.520
consume nature

01:55:14.520 --> 01:55:17.159
not something right about being

01:55:17.159 --> 01:55:19.619
different than nature and then you have

01:55:19.619 --> 01:55:21.420
to work on things like a new theory of

01:55:21.420 --> 01:55:22.800
the body

01:55:22.800 --> 01:55:26.719
um so that's all I I'm just kind of

01:55:26.719 --> 01:55:29.100
saying a lot more words for I think

01:55:29.100 --> 01:55:32.400
exactly what your your insult is it's a

01:55:32.400 --> 01:55:34.739
very good insight about the meta project

01:55:34.739 --> 01:55:37.100
here

01:55:39.540 --> 01:55:42.600
it's what John if did you attend the

01:55:42.600 --> 01:55:45.360
consilience project at all

01:55:45.360 --> 01:55:49.880
um no so John it's

01:55:51.960 --> 01:55:54.960
I accuse John viveki of having a strong

01:55:54.960 --> 01:55:58.800
Transcendence and a weak naturalism

01:55:58.800 --> 01:56:01.199
so uh

01:56:01.199 --> 01:56:03.719
and I'm writing about it'll come out in

01:56:03.719 --> 01:56:05.699
the after Socrates series I'm writing

01:56:05.699 --> 01:56:08.100
about because he's in that pickle

01:56:08.100 --> 01:56:10.639
he thinks there's Newtonian causal

01:56:10.639 --> 01:56:14.340
causality down there so he can't he

01:56:14.340 --> 01:56:17.520
can't get down there

01:56:17.520 --> 01:56:20.699
so and I invited him into a project

01:56:20.699 --> 01:56:23.580
which would combine a strong

01:56:23.580 --> 01:56:25.800
Transcendence with a strong naturalism

01:56:25.800 --> 01:56:29.000
so we'll see

01:56:33.719 --> 01:56:35.580
okay my friends Holly do you have

01:56:35.580 --> 01:56:38.699
something you'd like to add

01:56:38.699 --> 01:56:40.619
it's really early for you right here in

01:56:40.619 --> 01:56:42.780
Texas yeah well it's interesting because

01:56:42.780 --> 01:56:46.320
uh this turkey started gobbling and woke

01:56:46.320 --> 01:56:47.880
me up and the first thing I was like

01:56:47.880 --> 01:56:50.820
Bonnie I'm coming like I

01:56:50.820 --> 01:56:53.100
I put that turkey there I know I know

01:56:53.100 --> 01:56:54.600
you did

01:56:54.600 --> 01:56:56.159
uh and then it was like oh I remembered

01:56:56.159 --> 01:56:57.659
to wake up that's really good like

01:56:57.659 --> 01:57:01.380
that's great so uh glad I made it and it

01:57:01.380 --> 01:57:02.820
was really great to hear

01:57:02.820 --> 01:57:05.520
okay thanks you all we have one more on

01:57:05.520 --> 01:57:07.380
Friday at four o'clock Eastern if you

01:57:07.380 --> 01:57:09.600
want to come for a wrap up uh thank you

01:57:09.600 --> 01:57:11.820
all for coming today it was an extremely

01:57:11.820 --> 01:57:14.960
enjoyable conversation

01:57:15.080 --> 01:57:16.800
thanks everybody

01:57:16.800 --> 01:57:18.899
[Music]

## Cohort 5

00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:03.360
so many buttons to click

00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:05.220
click click click click click click

00:00:05.220 --> 00:00:08.180
click click click

00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:16.379
so do we remember The Way We Were

00:00:16.379 --> 00:00:20.600
the title of today's session

00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:25.080
we're gonna learn today

00:00:25.080 --> 00:00:29.640
um is how peculiar language uh memory

00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:30.900
really is

00:00:30.900 --> 00:00:33.059
especially since we probably thought it

00:00:33.059 --> 00:00:35.640
was something different than what we're

00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:37.079
discovering

00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.120
and so

00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:41.180
um

00:00:42.899 --> 00:00:45.059
first of all I'm wondering if Saturday

00:00:45.059 --> 00:00:47.940
at 4 is the better for the last session

00:00:47.940 --> 00:00:51.320
than Friday at 4.

00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:53.399
because we can switch it because the way

00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:54.780
I have it now I have Friday and then

00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:57.600
they have the empty Saturday

00:00:57.600 --> 00:00:59.640
um anyways

00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:01.640
um

00:01:01.680 --> 00:01:04.379
we can look at it for next time going

00:01:04.379 --> 00:01:07.140
into next time we'll ask before the last

00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:09.240
session

00:01:09.240 --> 00:01:12.060
um okay so let's let's start with the

00:01:12.060 --> 00:01:14.280
discussion what is some of the things

00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.100
that you have discovered seem

00:01:17.100 --> 00:01:20.880
interesting about memory and that way uh

00:01:20.880 --> 00:01:23.640
I can check them off my list if they

00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:25.380
come up

00:01:25.380 --> 00:01:27.840
um come on you know so like you can just

00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.420
talk and then if it's on my list I might

00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:32.460
give it like the formal name or

00:01:32.460 --> 00:01:37.020
something but uh yeah so

00:01:37.020 --> 00:01:38.820
what are some of the and we're gonna do

00:01:38.820 --> 00:01:41.700
a little exercise which will also show a

00:01:41.700 --> 00:01:43.079
funny thing

00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:47.280
about memory unless it comes up

00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:50.759
well I'll tell a story that I I told him

00:01:50.759 --> 00:01:53.340
many times and I started examining it

00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:55.079
and it's not exactly how I thought it

00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.600
was you've been looking at it

00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:00.240
there was this incident where we moved

00:02:00.240 --> 00:02:01.979
into the new neighborhood I was sick so

00:02:01.979 --> 00:02:03.479
I went into the kitchen after a few days

00:02:03.479 --> 00:02:05.579
and told my mother I don't think there's

00:02:05.579 --> 00:02:07.799
anybody in this neighborhood my age and

00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:09.179
she said well Christine Daley's about

00:02:09.179 --> 00:02:10.679
your age

00:02:10.679 --> 00:02:12.239
and

00:02:12.239 --> 00:02:15.060
the story I told is that moment I

00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:16.980
realized that I was alone but that's not

00:02:16.980 --> 00:02:19.560
actually what happened what happened was

00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.920
I had the experience of falling

00:02:22.920 --> 00:02:25.440
and there was the perception that she

00:02:25.440 --> 00:02:27.540
already knew it she knew and she didn't

00:02:27.540 --> 00:02:29.400
tell me but those words didn't even show

00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:32.640
up they came after and then the sense

00:02:32.640 --> 00:02:34.500
that I was alone if I couldn't trust her

00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:36.360
followed that

00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.300
so all that was the sequence

00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:41.040
and really it was just a raw experience

00:02:41.040 --> 00:02:42.959
that I felt like I was falling in a hole

00:02:42.959 --> 00:02:47.540
that had no thought of just going down

00:02:47.540 --> 00:02:50.040
it was just fascinating for me and this

00:02:50.040 --> 00:02:51.780
is just in the past few days

00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:54.120
that I noticed it all started with that

00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:55.920
sensation

00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:58.860
everything and before the words arose

00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:01.920
there was a sense first then the word so

00:03:01.920 --> 00:03:04.080
they're asking it's their staged and

00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.739
staged yeah so this is really good and

00:03:07.739 --> 00:03:10.319
it gonna bleed right into

00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:14.519
when we look at the transition from uh

00:03:14.519 --> 00:03:15.780
um

00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:18.420
where does representational thinking

00:03:18.420 --> 00:03:20.220
come from like we're gonna we're going

00:03:20.220 --> 00:03:22.379
into that module no we're going sorry

00:03:22.379 --> 00:03:24.599
I'm writing two at the same time we're

00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:28.019
going into imagination in synesthesia

00:03:28.019 --> 00:03:31.200
um uh

00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:33.840
yeah so

00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:35.700
just ignore what I just said because I

00:03:35.700 --> 00:03:37.620
was writing too this today is writing

00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:40.200
what was two modules ahead and that was

00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:42.239
tying into what was two modules ahead

00:03:42.239 --> 00:03:44.700
yeah so that's a good noticing and in

00:03:44.700 --> 00:03:45.599
fact

00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.620
um if you work with like you do these

00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:51.060
um it comes up a lot of times in the

00:03:51.060 --> 00:03:53.900
horse work people like all kinds of

00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:57.299
contemplative kind of practices a lot of

00:03:57.299 --> 00:03:59.640
times these early

00:03:59.640 --> 00:04:01.379
um

00:04:01.379 --> 00:04:03.720
um memories come and that's a very

00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:06.239
common one the common memory is

00:04:06.239 --> 00:04:09.540
something like you said but following

00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:12.540
hands

00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:16.139
calling for a mother that's not there

00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:18.359
and people always use the word mother

00:04:18.359 --> 00:04:20.639
could you know the parent that's not

00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.079
there

00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.600
um and

00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:28.080
um yeah that's a very and and what's

00:04:28.080 --> 00:04:32.120
interesting is we have no idea whether

00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.940
that child was alone for an hour and

00:04:35.940 --> 00:04:38.639
really traumatized or a nanosecond and

00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:42.300
was just scared you know you have

00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:44.639
well I have a story about that too okay

00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.940
go I dug at I took ass back in the old

00:04:47.940 --> 00:04:49.500
days and they asked these questions to

00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:51.600
get you back into those experiences

00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.060
so we're talking maybe 25 years after

00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:56.699
that incident maybe yeah so I went to my

00:04:56.699 --> 00:04:58.259
mother I started to tell her the story

00:04:58.259 --> 00:05:02.220
she says I remember that um she said I

00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:03.840
knew what it did to you and I knew it

00:05:03.840 --> 00:05:05.220
was too late there was nothing I could

00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:07.560
do about it okay so she noticed that it

00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.620
was yeah yeah okay

00:05:10.620 --> 00:05:13.880
that's interesting

00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.740
and then the way those memories come are

00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:21.479
different than the ways some of the

00:05:21.479 --> 00:05:23.520
other memory exercises you know they're

00:05:23.520 --> 00:05:25.800
all different they're they're many

00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:27.900
different uh

00:05:27.900 --> 00:05:30.800
experiences

00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:36.960
good anything else

00:05:36.960 --> 00:05:38.880
well we're going memory is this really

00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:40.440
weird don't you feel like can you see

00:05:40.440 --> 00:05:42.240
how we're completely deconstructing your

00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:44.699
Human Experience

00:05:44.699 --> 00:05:46.380
showing how you can't count on anything

00:05:46.380 --> 00:05:49.020
well we said perception we're trying to

00:05:49.020 --> 00:05:52.280
reclaim perception

00:05:53.039 --> 00:05:54.890
hi Campbell

00:05:54.890 --> 00:05:56.220
[Music]

00:05:56.220 --> 00:05:59.220
hi Bonnie we're talking about how

00:05:59.220 --> 00:06:01.680
peculiar and strange memory is once we

00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.500
actually start looking at

00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:07.259
how it happens yeah it's crazy I was

00:06:07.259 --> 00:06:08.900
just doing a deep dive into the memory

00:06:08.900 --> 00:06:12.300
reconsolidation stuff and yeah it's

00:06:12.300 --> 00:06:13.740
pretty wild

00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:15.800
yeah

00:06:15.900 --> 00:06:17.220
you're not going to add something to

00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:19.199
that buddy because when I was examining

00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.120
that experience I started to notice that

00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.759
there is a kind of

00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:25.919
there's something experiential going on

00:06:25.919 --> 00:06:28.520
in my torso and as it starts to swirl

00:06:28.520 --> 00:06:31.440
upward in my experience

00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:33.919
the that

00:06:33.919 --> 00:06:35.539
pre-verbal

00:06:35.539 --> 00:06:38.100
inclination to speak shows up and then

00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:40.740
the words show up so that same sequence

00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:43.380
is going on in my body

00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:46.020
yeah

00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:48.240
that's good noticing

00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.100
then that's exactly what we're going to

00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:54.139
look at two modules from now

00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:02.699
oh

00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:10.860
any other shares for now

00:07:10.860 --> 00:07:13.039
foreign

00:07:13.330 --> 00:07:14.520
[Music]

00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:18.539
there's something I wanted to ask you I

00:07:18.539 --> 00:07:20.900
don't know if you watched um

00:07:20.900 --> 00:07:23.780
Nora's um

00:07:23.780 --> 00:07:27.300
session on abduction

00:07:27.300 --> 00:07:29.340
this week

00:07:29.340 --> 00:07:31.620
um I kept thinking

00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:33.660
um

00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:38.539
in the context of the memory model

00:07:38.539 --> 00:07:42.419
that it seems like so much

00:07:42.419 --> 00:07:44.340
of memory

00:07:44.340 --> 00:07:47.060
could be seen as

00:07:47.060 --> 00:07:51.740
processes of abduction

00:07:53.039 --> 00:07:58.080
and I was wondering if you saw that

00:07:58.500 --> 00:07:59.940
um in any way

00:07:59.940 --> 00:08:01.560
uh well we're going to talk about

00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:03.419
induction

00:08:03.419 --> 00:08:06.539
um uh we're gonna use

00:08:06.539 --> 00:08:08.539
um

00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.319
what's her name

00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.139
we're going to use this and Pendleton

00:08:16.139 --> 00:08:19.259
Julian's book design Unbound which she

00:08:19.259 --> 00:08:20.699
wrote with John Seeley Brown about

00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:23.340
pragmatic imagination which is induction

00:08:23.340 --> 00:08:25.139
but in our

00:08:25.139 --> 00:08:28.020
in in our work that's all in the

00:08:28.020 --> 00:08:29.819
imagination

00:08:29.819 --> 00:08:31.680
abduction and induction as you imagine

00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.839
what could be the case

00:08:33.839 --> 00:08:36.959
and then you see if the evidence can

00:08:36.959 --> 00:08:39.060
logically follow it from it

00:08:39.060 --> 00:08:41.580
and a lot of times you use conifactuals

00:08:41.580 --> 00:08:44.399
so I don't I don't think as my I'm I

00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.080
didn't see what she's what she talked

00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:47.880
about but and this doesn't really have

00:08:47.880 --> 00:08:51.080
anything to do with memory

00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:57.180
are we going to that next in the next

00:08:57.180 --> 00:09:00.380
module of imagination

00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:05.760
I guess so something that I that really

00:09:05.760 --> 00:09:08.700
stuck with me is the is like the

00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:12.180
distinction between memory and presence

00:09:12.180 --> 00:09:15.839
and how I noticed that when I'm alone in

00:09:15.839 --> 00:09:17.640
nature

00:09:17.640 --> 00:09:19.740
I can access

00:09:19.740 --> 00:09:21.480
presence

00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:24.060
pretty easily

00:09:24.060 --> 00:09:25.260
and

00:09:25.260 --> 00:09:28.700
but then when I come into the company of

00:09:28.700 --> 00:09:30.839
other humans

00:09:30.839 --> 00:09:33.300
not not so the animals I can keep my

00:09:33.300 --> 00:09:35.640
presence with animals but

00:09:35.640 --> 00:09:39.600
with other humans and even in this

00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:44.760
this context of digital images of humans

00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:46.380
um

00:09:46.380 --> 00:09:49.920
there's a there's a draw into the what I

00:09:49.920 --> 00:09:52.500
didn't have language for prior which was

00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:54.300
something like

00:09:54.300 --> 00:09:57.060
or the repertoire

00:09:57.060 --> 00:09:58.740
of

00:09:58.740 --> 00:10:00.720
persona

00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.920
the and how that is tied into

00:10:04.920 --> 00:10:10.620
the Persistence of that being memory

00:10:10.620 --> 00:10:11.519
um

00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:13.680
and so I feel I'm really feeling into

00:10:13.680 --> 00:10:15.600
the

00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:18.240
sense of like what does it take to be

00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.339
present

00:10:20.339 --> 00:10:23.640
now with all of you

00:10:23.640 --> 00:10:26.040
why is that more difficult in it than

00:10:26.040 --> 00:10:30.240
just the what it feels alive is the

00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.600
the habit of

00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.839
being afraid or

00:10:36.839 --> 00:10:40.399
needing the repertoire

00:10:40.620 --> 00:10:44.399
for context and sort of continuity and

00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.160
not trusting and just being present

00:10:47.160 --> 00:10:50.339
and allowing that to be and go and do

00:10:50.339 --> 00:10:52.380
whatever it wants to do

00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:54.060
and um

00:10:54.060 --> 00:10:55.980
the yeah I'm just really like

00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:58.079
appreciating

00:10:58.079 --> 00:11:02.120
with the language in comes the

00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.480
ability like it's like a knob I can now

00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:09.019
grab and turn

00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.300
um and and tune in and sort of like more

00:11:12.300 --> 00:11:15.480
intentionally be present

00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.180
and just recognize

00:11:18.180 --> 00:11:20.940
not like do away with memory or anything

00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:22.860
but just sort of like

00:11:22.860 --> 00:11:25.440
the tune in on that distinction between

00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:28.920
what's repertoire and what's real time

00:11:28.920 --> 00:11:33.500
flow of of presence

00:11:34.260 --> 00:11:36.899
I really like that and it reminded me

00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:37.860
that

00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:39.600
there's something about the speaking

00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:41.700
when experience starts that it the

00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.500
speaking like turns on the faucet it

00:11:43.500 --> 00:11:45.480
starts to flow out

00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:49.140
and at least in my experience

00:11:49.140 --> 00:11:51.720
when I repeat what happened the closer I

00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.180
am to when it happened it can bring the

00:11:54.180 --> 00:11:56.040
experience right back it's like a tablet

00:11:56.040 --> 00:11:58.920
or file folder there that is but the

00:11:58.920 --> 00:12:01.740
farther in the future it goes the less

00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:03.480
the experience shows up when I talk

00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:05.579
about it and so I'm very fascinated

00:12:05.579 --> 00:12:09.120
about Bonnie how you feel

00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.760
the words and experience are related

00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:13.980
because one seems to instigate the other

00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:17.399
pin it in a point

00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:19.320
but it doesn't work perfectly at least

00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.839
in my experience it's the experience

00:12:21.839 --> 00:12:23.519
phase but there they seem to be related

00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.980
somehow

00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:28.620
yeah so we're going to talk about that

00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:30.839
in two modules from now in a different

00:12:30.839 --> 00:12:33.480
way which will more satisfy you but I'm

00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.000
going to answer you in the what I

00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.279
prepared for today okay so what I

00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:39.899
prepared tip for today you're asking a

00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:42.360
little bit of a deeper question but it's

00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:45.060
the first move we're gonna make

00:12:45.060 --> 00:12:48.779
before we answer the real deep question

00:12:48.779 --> 00:12:50.940
that you're intuiting

00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:53.639
um okay because I could I know what

00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:55.740
you're asking maybe we'll get to it by

00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:57.959
the end of the day today

00:12:57.959 --> 00:13:02.459
um so one of the things that uh

00:13:02.459 --> 00:13:05.839
so much going on

00:13:08.820 --> 00:13:11.519
one of the things that did not come up

00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.399
and I was hoping it would come up

00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:20.940
and uh was how memory is related to the

00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:21.860
different

00:13:21.860 --> 00:13:24.720
perceptual subsystems allocentric and

00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.540
egocentric

00:13:26.540 --> 00:13:28.260
and

00:13:28.260 --> 00:13:31.320
um if you remember what those mean those

00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.620
are is egocentric

00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:39.540
um so memory memories are related

00:13:39.540 --> 00:13:43.800
memories are processed through these

00:13:43.800 --> 00:13:45.019
animal

00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.899
systems in our body mind that originally

00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:52.380
evolved for place and location we talked

00:13:52.380 --> 00:13:54.120
about this last time

00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.200
and when we perceive place we can and

00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:00.839
location we can perceive it two ways

00:14:00.839 --> 00:14:05.519
when a rat runs a maze he's seeing his

00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.800
first person experience left right left

00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:10.200
right no dead end left right left right

00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:11.940
note dead end

00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:15.720
and then overnight that that first

00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.139
person experience overnight

00:14:19.139 --> 00:14:21.620
in during REM sleep

00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:27.060
gets it coated into a map a third person

00:14:27.060 --> 00:14:30.380
objective abstract map

00:14:30.380 --> 00:14:34.079
and this is one of the ways memory rolls

00:14:34.079 --> 00:14:36.660
from first person perspective to

00:14:36.660 --> 00:14:38.700
somebody asked last time why is that

00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:40.860
memory it was really important to me why

00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:44.579
is it why do I see it from like a map

00:14:44.579 --> 00:14:49.440
perspective because when we uh because

00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:53.160
the the this is a common thing so when

00:14:53.160 --> 00:14:56.100
it turns into a map the particular first

00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:58.459
person

00:14:58.699 --> 00:15:02.040
form of that memory becomes an abstract

00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:04.260
map of that memory and it gets

00:15:04.260 --> 00:15:07.260
generalized with Salient features

00:15:07.260 --> 00:15:08.760
okay

00:15:08.760 --> 00:15:10.139
now

00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:13.079
what's important about knowing this also

00:15:13.079 --> 00:15:16.500
is that we know this from rat

00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.420
experiments

00:15:18.420 --> 00:15:22.620
um and and what we know is that in the

00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:24.980
middle of the night

00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:27.660
uh and I told the story many times if

00:15:27.660 --> 00:15:29.220
you want me to tell you the research

00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:32.339
I'll let you know just ask me when I

00:15:32.339 --> 00:15:34.320
finish but in the middle of the night

00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:38.459
what the rats do what these Maps do is

00:15:38.459 --> 00:15:41.459
they combine to create new hypothetical

00:15:41.459 --> 00:15:43.019
mazes

00:15:43.019 --> 00:15:46.019
they make maps of hypothetical mazes

00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:49.260
that they the rat May encounter which is

00:15:49.260 --> 00:15:50.959
why rats get

00:15:50.959 --> 00:15:54.959
acceleratedly better at solving mazes

00:15:54.959 --> 00:15:57.839
that they've never seen before okay

00:15:57.839 --> 00:16:00.839
now this is also happens to in our

00:16:00.839 --> 00:16:03.779
memories we have a bunch of episodic

00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:06.420
memories they get coded into existing

00:16:06.420 --> 00:16:07.920
Maps

00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:10.860
and then the maps get mushed up into

00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:14.579
hypothetical encounters with people or

00:16:14.579 --> 00:16:16.800
villains or whatever

00:16:16.800 --> 00:16:20.459
and they become very tricky to know when

00:16:20.459 --> 00:16:23.459
we're recalling the map to recall the

00:16:23.459 --> 00:16:27.360
memory it's not clear what is serving up

00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.760
in our imagination or our memory it's

00:16:29.760 --> 00:16:31.079
not clear

00:16:31.079 --> 00:16:33.380
to us

00:16:33.380 --> 00:16:36.420
I was sharing the last time that one of

00:16:36.420 --> 00:16:38.100
the most significant first when somebody

00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:39.480
asked me what's the first one you ever

00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.839
had it's very significant

00:16:42.839 --> 00:16:46.680
um I cannot tell

00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:48.779
it just feels like I imagined it or

00:16:48.779 --> 00:16:50.940
dreamed it because I have dreamed it

00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:53.100
over and over and over again in ways

00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:54.600
that it's

00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:57.660
it's made it not like a memory it's like

00:16:57.660 --> 00:16:59.639
something else

00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.279
um and so we know that these these

00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.059
processes are

00:17:05.059 --> 00:17:09.419
that they turn over in this way

00:17:09.419 --> 00:17:11.160
um so that's one thing and I'll show you

00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.780
this cool

00:17:12.780 --> 00:17:15.620
uh

00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:20.520
here's a cool

00:17:20.520 --> 00:17:22.640
um

00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.500
excerpt from this book

00:17:25.500 --> 00:17:28.339
uh

00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:31.460
um

00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:35.880
it's an article and it just shows that

00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:37.500
um

00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.320
these different ways to

00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:42.200
um dead reckon versus

00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.520
self-referenced versus alocentric

00:17:44.520 --> 00:17:47.820
mappings happen in episodic memory or

00:17:47.820 --> 00:17:51.240
egocentric perception versus allocentric

00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:56.580
memory or semantic or map kind of uh uh

00:17:56.580 --> 00:17:57.600
memory

00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.700
so they use different terms they call it

00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:02.340
declarative memory but the same kind of

00:18:02.340 --> 00:18:04.919
shift from these different subsystems

00:18:04.919 --> 00:18:06.600
happens now

00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:10.860
the interesting thing is when the more

00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:13.919
you meditate meditation

00:18:13.919 --> 00:18:16.500
if done properly

00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:19.380
ships you from egocentric to allocentric

00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:22.620
modes and people do find that they don't

00:18:22.620 --> 00:18:23.880
have

00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:27.539
uh these strong Early Childhood you know

00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:30.059
you don't have much memory that's why

00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:32.700
they can feel like their personality is

00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:35.840
gone because many people's identity

00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:38.820
lives in the compounding of memory over

00:18:38.820 --> 00:18:40.740
time

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:43.140
um and so when you switch to allocentric

00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:44.820
modes

00:18:44.820 --> 00:18:47.520
um you you

00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:48.120
um

00:18:48.120 --> 00:18:52.080
and and so this also explains why a

00:18:52.080 --> 00:18:56.299
certain point in my journey I Only Could

00:18:56.299 --> 00:19:00.600
Dream by looking at you know completely

00:19:00.600 --> 00:19:03.780
objectified scene out there and out

00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:05.820
there in space as if I was in a drive-in

00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:08.580
movie so so these there's a lot of

00:19:08.580 --> 00:19:11.520
different types of configurations a lot

00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:14.940
of different moving Parts in memory

00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:20.100
um that make it much more dynamic here

00:19:20.100 --> 00:19:24.059
and present processing then it it seems

00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:26.360
like

00:19:27.840 --> 00:19:29.900
um

00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:36.660
what we're going to find out that this

00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.720
same process of mapping

00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.140
Salient features in from memory onto

00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:44.220
Maps

00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:47.820
is the same process if the map is of

00:19:47.820 --> 00:19:50.400
an experience that you had with your mom

00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.520
it becomes a psychological schema that

00:19:53.520 --> 00:19:56.340
map becomes a psychological schema so

00:19:56.340 --> 00:19:58.679
all the content of your Early Childhood

00:19:58.679 --> 00:20:02.160
starts to be laid out in these this map

00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.820
called a schema father mother child is a

00:20:05.820 --> 00:20:08.700
schema self other world is a schema so

00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:12.660
so this is this process of the

00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:14.400
experience

00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.220
being resilient Remembered in first

00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:19.559
person work first person working memory

00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.780
and then rolling over to something

00:20:21.780 --> 00:20:23.580
that's more of a map

00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:27.900
is part of the reason why we are the

00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:29.580
kinds of people we are

00:20:29.580 --> 00:20:32.539
foreign

00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:37.500
I have a question Bonnie about the so

00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:41.340
the analogy to The Mouse and the Maze

00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:44.880
the real time navigation

00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.640
say with without

00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.660
referencing the abstract memory

00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:53.400
would be something like a pure

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.240
allocentric

00:20:56.780 --> 00:21:00.059
experience to the mouse

00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:03.120
and no without accessing the map of the

00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:06.240
egocentric it doesn't mean ego like

00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.940
narcissism it just means I'm referencing

00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:10.799
this is on my right this is on my left

00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:13.620
this is on my right this is on my left

00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:16.140
but a map I can turn it around like this

00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:18.840
because I'm I I'm only interested in the

00:21:18.840 --> 00:21:21.740
relationships of things

00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:23.700
like

00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:25.320
all right so this is something

00:21:25.320 --> 00:21:28.200
interesting this is a stereotype like I

00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.360
know how to get from here to places I

00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:32.880
want to go but I never figure out the

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:35.880
shortcuts because I don't when I'm there

00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.760
I have no I mean Maria know this I get

00:21:38.760 --> 00:21:42.679
lost all the time because I have no idea

00:21:42.679 --> 00:21:44.340
where

00:21:44.340 --> 00:21:46.559
I don't have a map of just the route

00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:48.539
I've just traveled in my head I have no

00:21:48.539 --> 00:21:50.640
idea don't I don't have any idea if I

00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.520
should go like if there's a detour and I

00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:55.679
go down the detour and I come out I

00:21:55.679 --> 00:21:56.940
don't know if I should turn right or

00:21:56.940 --> 00:21:58.020
left

00:21:58.020 --> 00:21:59.640
I only know how to get from here to

00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.260
there because I just do the same things

00:22:01.260 --> 00:22:03.480
all the time that's very egocentric way

00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.620
of getting around have no map uh of no

00:22:07.620 --> 00:22:11.820
no place sells they don't they don't

00:22:11.820 --> 00:22:15.000
turn into like oh I turned a right I

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:16.500
took a right left right left right and

00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:17.520
I'm here

00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:19.919
oh that by a straight line is this way

00:22:19.919 --> 00:22:22.440
that doesn't happen to me I've gotten

00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.559
lost in the woods my own backyard

00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.440
so and when I get lost I have to go to

00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.140
something familiar and just even though

00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:33.480
it's I know it's horribly the long way

00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:35.460
around I just have to follow the things

00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:37.380
I know from a first person perspective

00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.559
that so that's egocentric

00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.360
and I think this might be something

00:22:42.360 --> 00:22:45.539
about men and women in that book I won't

00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:46.860
tell a joke

00:22:46.860 --> 00:22:49.860
Campbell

00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:51.780
yeah so this is amazing me think about

00:22:51.780 --> 00:22:54.419
the the horse example

00:22:54.419 --> 00:22:56.280
um from the reading

00:22:56.280 --> 00:23:00.539
um in episodic memory uh and how the

00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:02.940
horse doesn't it seems like from that

00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:04.740
example and what you just shared like

00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:05.880
the horse doesn't

00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:07.980
it doesn't make maps in the same way

00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:10.200
exactly

00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.059
but and then okay so that's starting to

00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:13.500
lock in for me and then is there a

00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:15.600
distinction between like why

00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:17.940
rats might do that or that's kind of a

00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.100
different thing they're yeah yeah

00:23:20.100 --> 00:23:22.320
Predator prey

00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:25.260
oh cool okay right

00:23:25.260 --> 00:23:26.640
so

00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.740
prey animals they have to be aware of

00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:31.500
all the changes in their environment at

00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:33.059
a micro scale

00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.220
and predators

00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:37.320
um if you ever saw a dog I used to have

00:23:37.320 --> 00:23:40.679
this dog she she liked to chase she

00:23:40.679 --> 00:23:42.299
liked to catch squirrels

00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:44.340
and she'd sit there in the park and

00:23:44.340 --> 00:23:47.039
watch squirrels go like this and they

00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.140
don't go up the tree directly

00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:52.080
and then she got so she would start

00:23:52.080 --> 00:23:54.720
after a squirrel and she'd run right for

00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.299
the tree that it got to going like this

00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.640
because she had this

00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.940
this map of the behavior

00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:05.039
um so um and that's clear in the

00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.580
literature around horses it's it's it's

00:24:07.580 --> 00:24:11.760
a predator and prey now what's also in

00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:14.100
the literature is that

00:24:14.100 --> 00:24:16.520
uh mammals

00:24:16.520 --> 00:24:20.640
small mammals and birds like birds are

00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.700
both predators and prey like a robin is

00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.919
after a warm but it's also

00:24:25.919 --> 00:24:28.860
quite easily predated on

00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:31.440
and these animals have strongly

00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.340
lateralized brains

00:24:34.340 --> 00:24:37.679
and they process according to the

00:24:37.679 --> 00:24:39.480
different it's not really that clear

00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.640
it's not like one of the processes is in

00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:43.860
one of the brain but but there's a lot

00:24:43.860 --> 00:24:47.280
more strange things going on in these

00:24:47.280 --> 00:24:50.100
animals and one one could argue that

00:24:50.100 --> 00:24:52.860
deep in our evolutionary past we were

00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:55.799
both predators and quite a lot and very

00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.559
significantly prey to prey animals this

00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.480
makes for a much more complexity and

00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:05.820
crossing crossing over of these systems

00:25:05.820 --> 00:25:08.400
so we're not you know only generalists

00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.100
but you know we're kind of a mixture of

00:25:11.100 --> 00:25:12.960
these and maybe that's why the memory

00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.360
tumbles over I don't know

00:25:15.360 --> 00:25:18.480
um yeah but that's that's exactly what

00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.520
those those systems are Anna or soup

00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:25.500
hey thanks Bonnie hi everyone

00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:27.840
um I liked the um how you explain the

00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:29.880
egocentric and the allocentric memory

00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.980
and yesterday Sue and I were doing the

00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:33.960
practice about okay you remember when

00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.900
you were five 10 15 20 and I haven't

00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:39.059
done that before so we were watching the

00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:41.400
video I think number four or five cohort

00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:42.539
five

00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:45.539
and all of a sudden I thought ah but I

00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:47.100
don't want to go there I don't want to

00:25:47.100 --> 00:25:50.460
go into 5 10 15. I thought what is

00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:53.220
happening here so I slowed down and all

00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:55.140
of a sudden there was is like white

00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:56.820
flash like

00:25:56.820 --> 00:25:58.860
and then there was almost like what am I

00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:01.080
summoning what am I recalling I don't

00:26:01.080 --> 00:26:02.520
know I don't know if summoning is the

00:26:02.520 --> 00:26:04.919
right word where it's like a recalling

00:26:04.919 --> 00:26:07.679
of what is it in service of and what

00:26:07.679 --> 00:26:10.620
pattern or a rhythm almost do I

00:26:10.620 --> 00:26:14.760
recognize here that is actually

00:26:14.760 --> 00:26:16.919
um there's an epic stream there's

00:26:16.919 --> 00:26:19.260
something arising in me and what action

00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:21.480
do I take or memory do I take that

00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:23.460
satisfies that in the now

00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.580
and that made me realize like wow

00:26:26.580 --> 00:26:28.380
this is actually fun because I don't

00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:30.179
have to remember anything anymore it's

00:26:30.179 --> 00:26:34.559
about what is in service off now and

00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:37.559
it's actually the unpredictableness that

00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.500
satisfies it because it creates I know

00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:43.500
life or the aliveness itself that comes

00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:45.779
through that is the experience that is

00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:47.820
for now that therefore creates a new

00:26:47.820 --> 00:26:50.100
memory because I like to go to the edges

00:26:50.100 --> 00:26:52.020
of the not knowing because that

00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:55.620
satisfies me is that making any sense no

00:26:55.620 --> 00:26:58.140
that's very beautiful I mean this is

00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.799
actually the enlightened

00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.080
purpose you know it's like the the

00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:06.720
nature of the memory this is what memory

00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.980
is for it's it's not for see the thing

00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:13.919
is so that's really beautiful and and

00:27:13.919 --> 00:27:17.640
and I couldn't have said it as well but

00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:20.340
that's the thing it you focused in on

00:27:20.340 --> 00:27:22.440
that thing that it's in service to the

00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:25.380
now and it's always there it's when it's

00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:27.299
in service to what is now it doesn't

00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:28.940
matter if it's

00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:31.919
correct or videographical

00:27:31.919 --> 00:27:34.620
because we think that just like we think

00:27:34.620 --> 00:27:37.799
perception is constructed because it

00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.940
involves a long process and and

00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:44.100
recursive uh participation of the body

00:27:44.100 --> 00:27:46.919
and stuff we think memory is faulty

00:27:46.919 --> 00:27:48.840
because it's not videographical but

00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:52.740
that's not what memory is for

00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.799
that memory is for exactly what you said

00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.159
it's it's it's it's it's

00:27:58.159 --> 00:28:01.700
this partnership between salience

00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:05.820
mapping in the past and

00:28:05.820 --> 00:28:08.659
um and learn past learnings

00:28:08.659 --> 00:28:13.740
that are there to enrich what how you

00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:16.559
experience the present

00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.480
yeah and the actions that come out of it

00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.900
are just fun because if I see like a an

00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:24.179
insect fooling off the sky or whatever

00:28:24.179 --> 00:28:27.360
and falls on on my on my carpet and his

00:28:27.360 --> 00:28:30.059
little his little feet are stuck or his

00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.640
legs are stuck in the carpet I just

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.220
there's like a reciprocity or a calling

00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:37.559
almost in that moment for okay I'm gonna

00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:39.840
help because my attention is here now

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:42.000
and it I don't know if the insect is

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.919
calling me or not but I I make that up

00:28:43.919 --> 00:28:46.500
maybe but I feel it I feel that that is

00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:48.419
needed so I put my hand there and the

00:28:48.419 --> 00:28:49.919
insect crawls on my hand and I release

00:28:49.919 --> 00:28:52.919
it outside and that satisfies me it's

00:28:52.919 --> 00:28:56.159
like yes not that I'm rescuing but that

00:28:56.159 --> 00:28:58.200
I'm actually hearing I can listen I'm

00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:59.039
here

00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.039
and it's like with those small little

00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.860
things like taking the Mandarin off the

00:29:04.860 --> 00:29:07.320
tree because or not taking the Mandarin

00:29:07.320 --> 00:29:09.020
off the tree because it's not right yet

00:29:09.020 --> 00:29:12.000
and it's not calling you it's not cool

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.640
yes it's not falling there's no calling

00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.700
yet or can I listen to that and and it

00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:19.860
comes from from my feet in the

00:29:19.860 --> 00:29:22.200
Netherlands we have to say

00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.020
um it it comes the villain you probably

00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:27.720
know this that it's the groundedness

00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:29.159
that it comes through your feet or

00:29:29.159 --> 00:29:31.679
through your toes and that you're just

00:29:31.679 --> 00:29:33.899
feeling it rising and then you know that

00:29:33.899 --> 00:29:35.640
there's an action that comes with it so

00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:38.220
as it's I'm gonna stop talking now but

00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:40.500
there's a lot of life so we're going

00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:43.620
into imagination in synesthesia and I

00:29:43.620 --> 00:29:44.880
have a

00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.820
certain spelling of synesthesia

00:29:47.820 --> 00:29:50.940
um and we're going to argue that complex

00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:53.520
that all thoughts all complex thought

00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:56.340
comes from exactly what you do you see

00:29:56.340 --> 00:29:58.980
the Mandarin but you feel something in

00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:01.799
your feet something calls you in your

00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:05.399
ear but it's something that the wind you

00:30:05.399 --> 00:30:09.000
feel on so synesthesia because the

00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:12.059
memory and the perceptions participate

00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:14.279
holistically that that your experience

00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:16.679
can become very very synesthetic if it's

00:30:16.679 --> 00:30:19.260
in service to the present

00:30:19.260 --> 00:30:21.360
and

00:30:21.360 --> 00:30:23.520
um and there's this very strong argument

00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:27.419
that that this is the foundations of

00:30:27.419 --> 00:30:30.240
thought because all representational

00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:31.620
thinking

00:30:31.620 --> 00:30:34.320
is conceptual metaphor that's Blended

00:30:34.320 --> 00:30:37.080
synesthetically

00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:39.899
his heart was on fire

00:30:39.899 --> 00:30:42.720
and even Science is based on interaction

00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:46.380
metaphors so sensory motor synesthesia

00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:49.380
that you're describing is the animal

00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:54.840
body foundations of what we call mind

00:30:54.840 --> 00:30:58.679
and we know that right and so the

00:30:58.679 --> 00:31:00.419
everything that we call mind we're

00:31:00.419 --> 00:31:03.120
putting in continuous with the animal

00:31:03.120 --> 00:31:05.039
body

00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:06.659
so

00:31:06.659 --> 00:31:09.240
um yeah so that's we're right into next

00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:12.299
next modules on imagination and and this

00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:14.460
notion of synesthesia it's a very very

00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:16.380
cool argument

00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:17.580
um

00:31:17.580 --> 00:31:18.360
um

00:31:18.360 --> 00:31:20.840
yeah

00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:25.140
and this like this layer of the

00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:27.659
interface between mind and and I guess

00:31:27.659 --> 00:31:29.760
idea where it becomes representational

00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:32.159
that's is that kind of like

00:31:32.159 --> 00:31:34.279
what river Kenna is talking about like

00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:36.840
mythopoetic cognition where you know

00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:39.840
like the the symbols or the I don't know

00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:42.899
yeah if it's yeah memory kind of

00:31:42.899 --> 00:31:45.480
surfacing yeah and being in right

00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.000
relationship to that all the time kind

00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.860
of coming up so my answer

00:31:52.860 --> 00:31:55.500
my answer is he'll figure it out but he

00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:58.440
doesn't he doesn't he doesn't know

00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:00.419
doesn't know really how it works yet

00:32:00.419 --> 00:32:03.600
he's working it out from first empirical

00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:06.360
kind of yeah yeah I mean everything I'm

00:32:06.360 --> 00:32:08.159
talking about you know I've done a

00:32:08.159 --> 00:32:11.279
hundred thousand inquiries into my own

00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:13.679
lived experience about this stuff then I

00:32:13.679 --> 00:32:16.260
go find science that confirms it doesn't

00:32:16.260 --> 00:32:18.480
work the other way around

00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:21.539
um so he's doing the work the right way

00:32:21.539 --> 00:32:23.279
which I think is beautiful and then and

00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:25.380
then there may be other things this is

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:28.919
why you know but but but

00:32:28.919 --> 00:32:31.380
he's more like just showing you his

00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:33.299
process I don't think he's got like a

00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:34.440
solid

00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.960
framework or something yeah as far as I

00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.480
can see but it's got to be sort of the

00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:41.580
same thing

00:32:41.580 --> 00:32:45.299
um and I think as he goes along he gets

00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:46.679
more comfortable using his own words

00:32:46.679 --> 00:32:48.720
because the term myth of Poetics doesn't

00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.299
really is is probably not helpful to him

00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:53.159
because so many people think of other

00:32:53.159 --> 00:32:55.980
things so in two sessions from now we're

00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:57.539
going to talk about the archetypes and

00:32:57.539 --> 00:32:59.100
we're going to see how archetypes

00:32:59.100 --> 00:33:01.200
discharge in the body

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.059
um we're going to make a claim that they

00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:05.580
function the same way in animals and

00:33:05.580 --> 00:33:07.620
that they are not what we think they are

00:33:07.620 --> 00:33:09.899
and that I think will be more in line

00:33:09.899 --> 00:33:12.600
with what he's trying to suss out like

00:33:12.600 --> 00:33:15.179
his somatic stuff is very similar to

00:33:15.179 --> 00:33:19.740
ours his mytho poetic is I'm not sure so

00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:22.500
um yeah

00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:23.340
um

00:33:23.340 --> 00:33:27.140
okay so let's do a little exercise

00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:28.799
[Music]

00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.360
and then we'll talk a little more about

00:33:30.360 --> 00:33:32.760
things we might want to know factoids

00:33:32.760 --> 00:33:35.940
about memory I want you to think of how

00:33:35.940 --> 00:33:38.519
Okay some of you it's very early in the

00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.140
morning I'm not sure how early so you

00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:43.220
can think of Tomorrow yesterday

00:33:43.320 --> 00:33:45.720
um which might be easier

00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:46.340
um

00:33:46.340 --> 00:33:51.080
so I want you to think

00:33:51.179 --> 00:33:56.100
of what happened today or yesterday

00:33:56.100 --> 00:33:58.260
that you will remember

00:33:58.260 --> 00:34:02.179
10 or 20 years from now

00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:16.339
why are you guys laughing

00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.879
because we remembering from yesterday is

00:34:20.879 --> 00:34:23.339
hilarious and we will remember it in two

00:34:23.339 --> 00:34:25.560
years okay so you guys did have

00:34:25.560 --> 00:34:27.179
something

00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:31.280
well how about the day before

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:37.159
or the day before

00:34:48.419 --> 00:34:51.359
if you took an accounting of every day

00:34:51.359 --> 00:34:56.460
this way how much material do you think

00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:59.580
you will have predicted or have

00:34:59.580 --> 00:35:03.920
remembered 10 or 20 years from now

00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:09.980
probably close to zero

00:35:09.980 --> 00:35:12.839
so my question to you is and how do you

00:35:12.839 --> 00:35:14.460
remember everything that happened in

00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:16.020
your life

00:35:16.020 --> 00:35:18.920
foreign

00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:33.140
so there's a pattern

00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:35.099
um

00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:38.880
information is encoded in in some sort

00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:41.040
of way that can be

00:35:41.040 --> 00:35:44.520
sort of the raw material that

00:35:44.520 --> 00:35:48.180
that things can be associated with that

00:35:48.180 --> 00:35:50.460
and then given

00:35:50.460 --> 00:35:52.859
given into image or language but there's

00:35:52.859 --> 00:35:55.500
there's some sort of something must be

00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:57.420
holding

00:35:57.420 --> 00:36:00.660
the pattern right the body somehow is

00:36:00.660 --> 00:36:02.760
holding the pattern

00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.540
okay so it's called ellipsis

00:36:06.540 --> 00:36:10.200
and it's very similar to when you watch

00:36:10.200 --> 00:36:12.420
I don't know if this was in the content

00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:14.400
the course content it's very I can't

00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:15.720
remember

00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:18.060
I don't remember anything it's very

00:36:18.060 --> 00:36:21.180
similar to when you watch a TV show in

00:36:21.180 --> 00:36:23.640
one scene you see the two women they're

00:36:23.640 --> 00:36:25.680
all excited and this woman scared

00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:27.960
because she's got she's going on a date

00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.180
with this guy right

00:36:30.180 --> 00:36:33.060
and then commercial

00:36:33.060 --> 00:36:35.339
next scene you see she's laying on the

00:36:35.339 --> 00:36:37.920
couch with an ice bag over her head

00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.599
and you know exactly what happened right

00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.740
and the best the the filmmakers have

00:36:46.740 --> 00:36:50.040
learned that the more you can leave out

00:36:50.040 --> 00:36:53.359
the more people are drawn in because

00:36:53.359 --> 00:36:56.280
they're running on a story in their own

00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:57.310
imagination

00:36:57.310 --> 00:36:59.339
[Music]

00:36:59.339 --> 00:37:02.660
and David Lynch actually with this

00:37:02.660 --> 00:37:06.900
he creates movies to have

00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:09.780
that he doesn't know how one thing leads

00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:12.359
to another but he's interested in how

00:37:12.359 --> 00:37:16.619
how much of a gap in the story can I can

00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:19.440
I you know how crazy a story can I tell

00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.680
and people will still fill in fill in

00:37:22.680 --> 00:37:26.280
the meaning of it

00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:30.119
and so if you think of how many scenes

00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:32.040
you see in a sitcom

00:37:32.040 --> 00:37:33.540
versus

00:37:33.540 --> 00:37:35.640
how much is left out there's probably

00:37:35.640 --> 00:37:38.339
one percent of the story is in the

00:37:38.339 --> 00:37:40.859
actual image and that's probably true

00:37:40.859 --> 00:37:43.800
for your life if not less than one

00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:45.980
percent

00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:53.480
foreign

00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:58.680
so you remember a few things and then

00:37:58.680 --> 00:38:00.599
just fill in the rest of the gaps like

00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.400
with your imagination kind of

00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:11.280
that you've just imagined

00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:12.000
um

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:13.320
yeah

00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:16.800
and this is why narrative identity

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.000
um is fry is fragile because

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.640
um because it's not bound to the to

00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:27.740
reality in many cases Rush

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.079
well that was actually my question is

00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:35.040
I'm not then sure um what's reality

00:38:35.040 --> 00:38:37.560
if we're all running around a bunch of

00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:38.700
narratives

00:38:38.700 --> 00:38:42.240
and how we then co-create a particular

00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:45.500
reality to do anything

00:38:46.680 --> 00:38:48.900
okay

00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:50.640
so

00:38:50.640 --> 00:38:53.700
um we'll try you know we're this is like

00:38:53.700 --> 00:38:55.859
one of those courses that it's too

00:38:55.859 --> 00:38:58.079
painful to quit in the first trimester

00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:02.000
so it could keep getting your money

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.300
keep charging your but we're not here to

00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:09.060
destroy reality okay

00:39:09.060 --> 00:39:11.460
um but

00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:14.880
um the body it doesn't memory isn't

00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:19.280
memory and service of reality

00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:22.980
um

00:39:22.980 --> 00:39:25.160
um

00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:28.500
and that's that's tricky you know I'm

00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:31.859
gonna be talking to Ian mcgilchrist

00:39:31.859 --> 00:39:35.720
maybe I'll ask him exactly that

00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:40.800
this has been a question that I had

00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:44.400
gonna ask him about you know reality

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:45.060
um

00:39:45.060 --> 00:39:48.599
so so

00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:50.780
um

00:39:56.339 --> 00:40:00.540
yes when operating properly memory is in

00:40:00.540 --> 00:40:03.300
service to reality

00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:04.590
um but

00:40:04.590 --> 00:40:05.780
[Music]

00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:09.619
reality is fleeting and changing

00:40:09.619 --> 00:40:12.540
continuously changing so if memory

00:40:12.540 --> 00:40:15.420
wasn't like that it wouldn't be in

00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:18.500
service to reality

00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:22.140
the fact that we think memory

00:40:22.140 --> 00:40:24.420
is in service to reality but we think of

00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:29.520
memory as static and stored makes it not

00:40:29.520 --> 00:40:33.460
at all applicable to reality

00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:35.280
[Music]

00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.599
so so

00:40:41.640 --> 00:40:44.520
and my definition of suffering is the

00:40:44.520 --> 00:40:46.440
gap between

00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:49.200
what's real and how you live your life

00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:52.440
or how you think or

00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.540
identify

00:40:54.540 --> 00:40:58.700
so so now

00:40:58.700 --> 00:41:02.720
if you're a good Buddhist

00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:05.160
you're happy that your memory is like

00:41:05.160 --> 00:41:07.320
this because you're happy that

00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:09.780
you're aligned with the intelligence of

00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:11.760
the real world

00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.520
that you're that everything is in you in

00:41:14.520 --> 00:41:18.119
your internal life is coming and going

00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:21.119
as the world comes and goes

00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:24.200
as it should be

00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:29.720
and this should give you confidence

00:41:30.180 --> 00:41:34.380
it's abstract at first but uh yeah

00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:35.220
um

00:41:35.220 --> 00:41:38.460
so we don't have to worry about that

00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:40.460
um

00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.619
yeah so we don't have to worry about

00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.660
that

00:41:45.660 --> 00:41:50.119
now here's another weird one

00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:02.060
do you remember World War II

00:42:05.750 --> 00:42:09.480
[Music]

00:42:11.520 --> 00:42:14.160
I remember the story of world war aha

00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:17.280
yes you remember the story of World War

00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.020
II

00:42:19.020 --> 00:42:23.160
so a lot of our Collective memories no

00:42:23.160 --> 00:42:26.940
one not remembers them

00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:30.420
and so we're going to see we're going to

00:42:30.420 --> 00:42:33.420
problematize

00:42:34.020 --> 00:42:36.980
the fallacy of

00:42:36.980 --> 00:42:39.440
intergenerational trauma

00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:43.619
because nobody remembers World War II I

00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:44.820
mean there are some people probably

00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:47.760
remember something about World War II

00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:50.720
good afternoon

00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:58.200
we will see we will we will unpack what

00:42:58.200 --> 00:43:00.300
what looks as if it was

00:43:00.300 --> 00:43:04.040
intergenerational trauma

00:43:05.640 --> 00:43:07.740
what are you guys talking about over

00:43:07.740 --> 00:43:10.800
there they're like they're kids in

00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:14.720
school they're passing passing notes

00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:18.119
we're constantly being smacked by what's

00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:19.920
being seen by everyone and then

00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.260
commenting to each other about it it's

00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:25.319
very cool it's just fun and really

00:43:25.319 --> 00:43:28.079
really enjoying it because I know and I

00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.060
just realized the teachers who are never

00:43:30.060 --> 00:43:33.119
mad that you were talking they were mad

00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:34.440
because they didn't know what you were

00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:36.359
saying

00:43:36.359 --> 00:43:40.400
they were left out fomo sorry sorry

00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.900
we were just talking about Thomasville

00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:45.780
and we were very sorry for oh I can just

00:43:45.780 --> 00:43:50.099
hear Sue okay all right that was nasty

00:43:50.099 --> 00:43:52.819
yeah so it's it's a Miss it's a

00:43:52.819 --> 00:43:56.579
misunderstanding now what I do want to

00:43:56.579 --> 00:43:59.460
say is Thomas Hub will probably even

00:43:59.460 --> 00:44:01.920
knows this like a lot of teachers know

00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.780
this but since the people they're

00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:04.819
teaching

00:44:04.819 --> 00:44:07.980
interpret it as if that's happening that

00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:10.500
a lot of teachers will teach to the as

00:44:10.500 --> 00:44:12.740
if

00:44:13.740 --> 00:44:16.740
so I'm looking at Campbell it's like my

00:44:16.740 --> 00:44:19.140
friends teaching as if you had parts

00:44:19.140 --> 00:44:21.800
inside of you and they are

00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:24.240
long-term meditators they know that

00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:27.240
there are no parts inside your psyche a

00:44:27.240 --> 00:44:29.940
lot of teachers will teach as if and I

00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:31.560
you know I have a different opinion

00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:34.020
about that

00:44:34.020 --> 00:44:36.359
um first of all I don't think it's I

00:44:36.359 --> 00:44:39.420
think it's it's well

00:44:39.420 --> 00:44:42.480
I'm not even going to say that because I

00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:44.460
don't I don't teach I don't have the

00:44:44.460 --> 00:44:47.460
same audiences he does but so there is

00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:51.000
it's as if there's something in our

00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:54.260
experience as it's as if this stuff gets

00:44:54.260 --> 00:44:58.260
memory gets transported through conduits

00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:01.619
it is as if that and

00:45:01.619 --> 00:45:03.180
um

00:45:03.180 --> 00:45:04.859
yeah but

00:45:04.859 --> 00:45:08.339
um the stories get get past passed

00:45:08.339 --> 00:45:11.160
through and it's same like meditation I

00:45:11.160 --> 00:45:13.560
feel it can be if the person has some

00:45:13.560 --> 00:45:16.560
teachers are so dead serious that I

00:45:16.560 --> 00:45:18.240
really want to stop meditating at all

00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.819
and it's the same thing it's how serious

00:45:20.819 --> 00:45:23.460
do we get about stuff and I think

00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.400
there's it's blocking the aliveness of I

00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.380
don't know of it's probably directly

00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:32.180
related to how much you're making

00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:37.079
and this intergenerational thing I'll

00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:38.880
get serious once I get a hundred

00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.220
thousand dollars a year then I'll just

00:45:41.220 --> 00:45:43.819
like get really serious

00:45:43.819 --> 00:45:45.960
start making or maybe it works here

00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:47.579
maybe I should get serious and then I'll

00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:48.780
make more money no go ahead

00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:51.119
intergenerate go ahead no that it's

00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.520
interesting because a few days ago I

00:45:53.520 --> 00:45:55.260
realized that

00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:57.720
um there was a some of us enter myself

00:45:57.720 --> 00:45:59.640
and a couple of other people we'd really

00:45:59.640 --> 00:46:02.579
got into Thomas hooble and like about a

00:46:02.579 --> 00:46:04.680
done and whatever and then I just

00:46:04.680 --> 00:46:06.839
realized the probably two or three days

00:46:06.839 --> 00:46:11.520
ago how influenced one can be to see

00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:14.220
like I was just seeing intergenerational

00:46:14.220 --> 00:46:17.359
stuff everywhere it was like oh

00:46:17.359 --> 00:46:20.160
I have to talk to my brother oh did you

00:46:20.160 --> 00:46:22.920
and it and it's just all really

00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:26.940
once you just step away and like nah and

00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:29.700
yeah it's it was very powerful for a

00:46:29.700 --> 00:46:30.780
while for me

00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:32.460
that's something I said in the

00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:33.920
consilience

00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:36.780
conference we will I will get my own my

00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:39.000
the video of my session where I said we

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.560
have to be careful we're not fighting

00:46:40.560 --> 00:46:42.720
ghosts that we've made our made up

00:46:42.720 --> 00:46:47.760
ourselves exactly yeah and so

00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:51.060
um okay yeah so we will be looking at um

00:46:51.060 --> 00:46:53.220
at that there is there is some

00:46:53.220 --> 00:46:56.339
components like uh uh

00:46:56.339 --> 00:46:59.339
um there's epigenetic factors that make

00:46:59.339 --> 00:47:01.560
you more prone to being fearful and this

00:47:01.560 --> 00:47:04.200
and that so it can predispose you to

00:47:04.200 --> 00:47:06.599
believing a certain story that these are

00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:09.060
definitely passed through

00:47:09.060 --> 00:47:13.980
um but the the way to uh

00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:16.619
cut the cord so it doesn't go on for

00:47:16.619 --> 00:47:18.180
Generation after generation after

00:47:18.180 --> 00:47:20.940
generation is to heal the body not

00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:24.260
continually tell the story

00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:26.760
um okay so

00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.520
Collective memory is learned and then we

00:47:29.520 --> 00:47:32.280
remember what we've learned

00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:33.599
um

00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:34.980
um

00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:37.920
and of course it's it's these deep

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.520
memory things are learned not because of

00:47:41.520 --> 00:47:44.579
just the story but when you're kids and

00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:48.300
I remember when we had thunderstorms and

00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:50.339
blackouts when we were kids my parents

00:47:50.339 --> 00:47:52.200
always thought the Russians were coming

00:47:52.200 --> 00:47:54.240
and they didn't sit down and say the

00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:55.740
Russian you know they didn't tell the

00:47:55.740 --> 00:48:00.599
whole story but these these very uh uh

00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:03.720
things we noticed these patterns of of

00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:05.460
associations

00:48:05.460 --> 00:48:08.520
um we pick up on them very early in life

00:48:08.520 --> 00:48:11.280
my mother was afraid of the water they

00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:14.460
worked very hard uh to make sure that I

00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:16.260
wasn't afraid of the water and I still

00:48:16.260 --> 00:48:18.060
kind of was afraid of the water until I

00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:19.859
was in high school

00:48:19.859 --> 00:48:21.599
um so

00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.480
so things like this get learned at that

00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:27.119
at that at that level

00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:27.780
um

00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:29.160
so

00:48:29.160 --> 00:48:31.220
um

00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:37.440
what else do I have for you today

00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.500
um

00:48:40.520 --> 00:48:43.260
got one other thing are there any other

00:48:43.260 --> 00:48:45.619
questions

00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:49.079
[Music]

00:48:50.040 --> 00:48:52.200
I just wanted to kind of zoom in on the

00:48:52.200 --> 00:48:54.720
uh teaching as if

00:48:54.720 --> 00:48:56.460
um and like the distinctions around

00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:58.619
using metaphor to teach and the

00:48:58.619 --> 00:49:00.480
difference between

00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:02.280
I don't know sort of taking for granted

00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:05.099
that a story is a metaphor that's like

00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:06.300
leaving

00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:08.400
it's like a phenomenological experience

00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:11.160
of parts for example but you know I kind

00:49:11.160 --> 00:49:12.480
of just take it for granted that there's

00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:14.640
not actually Parts

00:49:14.640 --> 00:49:17.220
um without having like the ontology of

00:49:17.220 --> 00:49:19.619
you know this visual thing going on in

00:49:19.619 --> 00:49:21.839
my mind and how you kind of teach

00:49:21.839 --> 00:49:24.000
because I mean you definitely I mean I

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.579
think you use metaphor

00:49:26.579 --> 00:49:30.000
um to teach Concepts and and how like

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:33.359
allegories are are not

00:49:33.359 --> 00:49:36.060
like really what's going on but they're

00:49:36.060 --> 00:49:38.760
presenting something in a way that we

00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:40.140
can understand

00:49:40.140 --> 00:49:41.460
but we don't really like take for

00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:43.020
granted that that's the

00:49:43.020 --> 00:49:46.020
the fact of the matter I guess

00:49:46.020 --> 00:49:47.640
um so

00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:50.240
I'm kind of just one yeah feeling like

00:49:50.240 --> 00:49:52.859
disorganized and then I'm hoping you can

00:49:52.859 --> 00:49:55.360
reorganize okay so so

00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:56.660
[Music]

00:49:56.660 --> 00:49:59.880
the the critique is

00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:01.940
is

00:50:02.339 --> 00:50:04.319
primarily

00:50:04.319 --> 00:50:09.319
focused on people who I know know better

00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.839
that they know that there are no parts

00:50:12.839 --> 00:50:13.920
foreign

00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.020
some people

00:50:16.020 --> 00:50:18.359
um and people take Parts at different

00:50:18.359 --> 00:50:21.960
levels as being ontologically real

00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:23.819
um and

00:50:23.819 --> 00:50:26.220
um and so my critique is basically if

00:50:26.220 --> 00:50:29.640
you already know the wisdom of what the

00:50:29.640 --> 00:50:31.619
psyche really is why don't you teach to

00:50:31.619 --> 00:50:34.020
that it's kind of like if I was your

00:50:34.020 --> 00:50:38.400
Guru and I I wanted in my my point was

00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:40.440
to teach you no self I don't really

00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:42.540
teach the doctrine of no self but let's

00:50:42.540 --> 00:50:45.599
say that was my point then why would I

00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:47.220
keep telling you that's your ego talking

00:50:47.220 --> 00:50:49.140
that's your ego talking

00:50:49.140 --> 00:50:51.059
because I'm just rarifying a structure

00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:52.680
that's not actually real

00:50:52.680 --> 00:50:56.780
I think it's pedagogically insane

00:50:56.780 --> 00:50:59.040
every time I say that's your ego

00:50:59.040 --> 00:51:03.839
structure I I reify that you have an ego

00:51:03.839 --> 00:51:06.480
and so you notice that what I teach is

00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.220
that the mind is in the body and I do

00:51:08.220 --> 00:51:10.020
use that word mind

00:51:10.020 --> 00:51:13.319
but I'll almost always show you what

00:51:13.319 --> 00:51:16.980
bodily processes where you can find that

00:51:16.980 --> 00:51:21.500
physical somatic experience in your body

00:51:24.660 --> 00:51:27.180
and when we start the course I always

00:51:27.180 --> 00:51:28.980
say Okay the reason why we learn these

00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:31.260
terms is because we want to pers be

00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:33.900
precise about what is the different at

00:51:33.900 --> 00:51:35.760
different experiences in our body that's

00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:38.480
what they're for

00:51:40.740 --> 00:51:45.839
so for example in in this and so so you

00:51:45.839 --> 00:51:47.280
know I know a lot of people their

00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:49.500
methodologies Parts work they experience

00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:52.260
themselves as having parts so

00:51:52.260 --> 00:51:54.119
can't really like

00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:58.040
blame them for like

00:51:58.140 --> 00:52:00.859
doing what they know how to do i i

00:52:00.859 --> 00:52:04.380
bark at my fellow teachers who know

00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:06.119
better

00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:10.040
than to think the psyche has parts

00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:13.440
is that distinct from I mean you use the

00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:15.180
word schema earlier which I tend to

00:52:15.180 --> 00:52:16.920
think of those as kind of like similar

00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:19.260
like you know psychic representations

00:52:19.260 --> 00:52:21.839
that are structured and that isn't like

00:52:21.839 --> 00:52:23.579
phenomenologically

00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:25.619
you know real in the same sense as the

00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:29.160
body associations right but yeah so in

00:52:29.160 --> 00:52:31.619
two modules from now you will see that

00:52:31.619 --> 00:52:33.420
schemas

00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:37.160
come from perceptual

00:52:37.160 --> 00:52:42.300
uh perceptual synesthesia so so there's

00:52:42.300 --> 00:52:43.380
a

00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:45.920
animal body

00:52:45.920 --> 00:52:49.579
Counterpoint to schemas

00:52:49.579 --> 00:52:53.280
and schemas are very close to sub

00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.619
personalities and sub personalities are

00:52:55.619 --> 00:52:57.000
close to the archetype at different

00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.700
levels of abstraction

00:52:59.700 --> 00:53:02.000
now some personalities

00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.819
they are useful

00:53:05.819 --> 00:53:08.700
for in two ways

00:53:08.700 --> 00:53:11.819
they're useful to organize

00:53:11.819 --> 00:53:15.059
exp experience

00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:17.700
when the child organizes experiences

00:53:17.700 --> 00:53:20.460
it's not going to say oh that's my ID my

00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:22.920
ego or my super ego that's how Freud

00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:25.140
organized your interior you can't do

00:53:25.140 --> 00:53:27.599
that so he uses only what he knows

00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:29.819
that's like my mom that's like my dad

00:53:29.819 --> 00:53:32.220
this is what I feel like mother father

00:53:32.220 --> 00:53:35.520
child that's a schema

00:53:35.520 --> 00:53:39.660
so it's an organization of reality

00:53:39.660 --> 00:53:41.780
but when you're an adult

00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:45.059
what you should be Beyond organizing

00:53:45.059 --> 00:53:46.920
reality

00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:51.500
as the mind of a three-year-old does

00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:56.760
it infantilizes the adult

00:53:56.760 --> 00:53:58.859
and that's why the first internal

00:53:58.859 --> 00:54:01.200
working models are family systems

00:54:01.200 --> 00:54:03.000
because they're the earliest and the

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:04.559
most primitive

00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:07.220
foreign

00:54:09.140 --> 00:54:12.540
they're not relevant to complex adult

00:54:12.540 --> 00:54:13.619
life

00:54:13.619 --> 00:54:16.440
the only relative to a child's reality

00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:19.319
it's ridiculous it's ridiculous to

00:54:19.319 --> 00:54:22.380
infantilize people like that

00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:23.880
so what are you producing you're

00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:27.359
producing a 50 year old child

00:54:27.359 --> 00:54:29.819
not someone who can stand on their own

00:54:29.819 --> 00:54:33.300
two feet and then they have children

00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:36.140
and they see their children through

00:54:36.140 --> 00:54:39.180
primary schema

00:54:39.180 --> 00:54:42.319
it's ridiculous

00:54:45.260 --> 00:54:47.880
yeah I think this is really locking in

00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:49.680
for me because the distinction between

00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:52.140
like yeah typical I guess Parts work and

00:54:52.140 --> 00:54:55.079
other using that as a metaphor like if

00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:56.880
you're using that as a metaphor to then

00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:01.260
like de-refy your structured view of

00:55:01.260 --> 00:55:03.059
these schemas or your your kind of

00:55:03.059 --> 00:55:05.880
Frozen structural schema habits like

00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:08.520
living in that domain like you know sort

00:55:08.520 --> 00:55:10.800
of mainstream ifs you like

00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.500
lock in that structure reify the part as

00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:15.660
being in you whereas other ways of doing

00:55:15.660 --> 00:55:17.700
it like release it and then it becomes

00:55:17.700 --> 00:55:19.980
you're living more in the somatic realm

00:55:19.980 --> 00:55:21.780
and then living more you know in that

00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:23.640
non-dual kind of woo way

00:55:23.640 --> 00:55:26.460
you know right relationship where you're

00:55:26.460 --> 00:55:28.559
not needing to structure reality to make

00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:29.880
sense of it but it makes total sense

00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.099
because if a lot of 50 year olds you

00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:34.680
know in the whole Spectrum

00:55:34.680 --> 00:55:37.500
um are right like living at this

00:55:37.500 --> 00:55:40.260
four-year-old I mean I don't know since

00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:41.819
you mentioned three-year-old but we like

00:55:41.819 --> 00:55:43.800
we are living at that depth before we

00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:46.559
can or or that structural level before

00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.579
we can derayify it you know yeah and and

00:55:50.579 --> 00:55:53.780
and these associations

00:55:53.780 --> 00:55:58.619
can can rear the ugly head I remember I

00:55:58.619 --> 00:55:59.940
just tell you a story this is a little

00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:02.819
off topic but I just wanna

00:56:02.819 --> 00:56:06.180
okay sorry no but but we want to talk

00:56:06.180 --> 00:56:08.280
about how this lives in all the

00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.819
different different areas but but

00:56:11.819 --> 00:56:15.119
um one many years ago

00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:19.079
um I was working in this for this firm

00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:20.760
and

00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:24.420
um I felt I was underpaid by a lot I was

00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:26.160
the head of the office and the head of

00:56:26.160 --> 00:56:28.260
operation so I knew how much the owners

00:56:28.260 --> 00:56:31.380
were making and I wanted to walk in and

00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:34.680
ask for a substantial raise like a

00:56:34.680 --> 00:56:36.240
hundred and eighty thousand dollar raise

00:56:36.240 --> 00:56:40.980
which was a lot of money and so I knew

00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:43.260
that I was justified I knew if I didn't

00:56:43.260 --> 00:56:45.000
get it then

00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:48.119
um the the company would get so mature

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:49.920
that they wouldn't really need me

00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:51.660
anymore they were right at this point

00:56:51.660 --> 00:56:54.119
they were expanding very quickly they

00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:56.819
needed me we had an centralized

00:56:56.819 --> 00:56:58.859
operations and I had a previous

00:56:58.859 --> 00:57:01.020
experience I didn't ask early enough so

00:57:01.020 --> 00:57:04.440
I had to ask I knew that this

00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.500
so we had this woman who was Jack

00:57:07.500 --> 00:57:09.300
Welsh's

00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.380
um consultant Jack Welsh was the head of

00:57:12.380 --> 00:57:16.140
GE and she had a fancy property and we

00:57:16.140 --> 00:57:18.000
were doing the landscape architecture

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:20.160
for it and so she would come in and

00:57:20.160 --> 00:57:22.319
trade time working with us doing

00:57:22.319 --> 00:57:24.359
Myers-Briggs and stuff like that so one

00:57:24.359 --> 00:57:26.940
day she was there and I asked her coming

00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:29.099
to the conference room and I asked her a

00:57:29.099 --> 00:57:30.540
question I said

00:57:30.540 --> 00:57:33.300
you know I really know I really know

00:57:33.300 --> 00:57:35.940
that I'm right but I have too much

00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:38.280
emotion around it and I know if I go in

00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:41.760
there and I'm scared he will just he was

00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:43.619
a very instinctual

00:57:43.619 --> 00:57:47.099
boss he will just eat me up because if

00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:50.280
he knows he can

00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:51.540
you know

00:57:51.540 --> 00:57:55.440
work that Tim any kind of timidity in me

00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:57.540
or any kind of anger would really piss

00:57:57.540 --> 00:58:02.040
him off so I was asking her like to help

00:58:02.040 --> 00:58:05.339
me process this so I could go in

00:58:05.339 --> 00:58:07.500
this is why people get agents so they

00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:09.720
can just go in and say well this is the

00:58:09.720 --> 00:58:11.220
number blah blah blah and I didn't want

00:58:11.220 --> 00:58:12.839
to be emotional

00:58:12.839 --> 00:58:15.300
but when I started talking to her I was

00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:17.400
talking to her like this and then my

00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:19.380
voice got to be like a three-year-old

00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:22.740
and all she had to do was go

00:58:22.740 --> 00:58:25.319
I really should like that to me and I

00:58:25.319 --> 00:58:27.720
realized I had a daddy problem with my

00:58:27.720 --> 00:58:28.740
boss

00:58:28.740 --> 00:58:30.119
okay

00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:33.780
right and once I realized that done it

00:58:33.780 --> 00:58:34.819
was gone

00:58:34.819 --> 00:58:38.339
so you have to expose the top the the

00:58:38.339 --> 00:58:41.460
Primitive associations you don't use it

00:58:41.460 --> 00:58:44.160
as a methodology

00:58:44.160 --> 00:58:47.720
this doesn't make any sense

00:58:52.319 --> 00:58:53.900
laughs

00:58:53.900 --> 00:58:56.640
baby that's all she had to do is

00:58:56.640 --> 00:58:59.119
turnaround

00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:04.680
it just was just obvious to me

00:59:04.680 --> 00:59:07.200
and it was like you know

00:59:07.200 --> 00:59:09.780
it was just one of those things that had

00:59:09.780 --> 00:59:15.319
gotten gummied up in my my imagination

00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:18.900
so that's that's my tirade against

00:59:18.900 --> 00:59:20.160
against

00:59:20.160 --> 00:59:23.339
using it when people have other skills

00:59:23.339 --> 00:59:26.160
at their disposal

00:59:26.160 --> 00:59:27.900
um so

00:59:27.900 --> 00:59:29.640
um but now I get it in drips from you

00:59:29.640 --> 00:59:31.740
I'm so glad because each drip I learn a

00:59:31.740 --> 00:59:35.280
bit more so that's starting to congeal

00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.079
expression

00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:38.880
yes

00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:41.880
um and um so people in organizations

00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.819
like internal family systems because

00:59:44.819 --> 00:59:47.579
it's it's good to be infantilized in

00:59:47.579 --> 00:59:50.339
organizations uh because because it

00:59:50.339 --> 00:59:51.839
keeps you

00:59:51.839 --> 00:59:54.780
running scripts that make make the job

00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:57.780
seem important or whatever

00:59:57.780 --> 00:59:59.700
um so

00:59:59.700 --> 01:00:02.400
um yeah so

01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.460
um

01:00:08.299 --> 01:00:12.660
uh um uh you know you should read is

01:00:12.660 --> 01:00:13.500
um

01:00:13.500 --> 01:00:16.200
uh Gene mandler I think it is mandler

01:00:16.200 --> 01:00:19.079
maybe I don't know but some you know

01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:21.960
some personalities we call I call these

01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:24.059
things sub personalities before they're

01:00:24.059 --> 01:00:27.839
they're uh rarefied into parts and sub

01:00:27.839 --> 01:00:30.240
personalities are helpful uh for

01:00:30.240 --> 01:00:32.940
role-playing in society right so if I

01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:35.819
get pulled over by a cop I know exactly

01:00:35.819 --> 01:00:38.220
what sub personality put on this is not

01:00:38.220 --> 01:00:40.680
Bonnie Wright this is the this is a

01:00:40.680 --> 01:00:43.500
child being spoken to by their teacher

01:00:43.500 --> 01:00:45.720
and I just let that freaking sub

01:00:45.720 --> 01:00:47.339
personality

01:00:47.339 --> 01:00:50.700
roll all over me because if body comes

01:00:50.700 --> 01:00:52.859
out

01:00:52.859 --> 01:00:56.460
to be in prison okay

01:00:56.460 --> 01:00:58.619
so that's why some personalities are

01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:01.380
good a good toolkit for for if you use

01:01:01.380 --> 01:01:04.200
them as a toolkit and not as

01:01:04.200 --> 01:01:08.240
a camper okay

01:01:08.460 --> 01:01:10.619
what else is in the field before I have

01:01:10.619 --> 01:01:12.720
another thing to talk about but it's a

01:01:12.720 --> 01:01:16.700
little moving moving on

01:01:21.799 --> 01:01:24.839
Magdalena I think she asked the question

01:01:24.839 --> 01:01:27.619
uh

01:01:28.020 --> 01:01:29.480
uh

01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:32.040
Bethany I'm going to Pro I'm going to

01:01:32.040 --> 01:01:35.760
probably publish the text when with the

01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:37.260
recording when I get the recording and

01:01:37.260 --> 01:01:42.440
it'll go out on a a pop-up School thread

01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:45.559
um

01:01:50.099 --> 01:01:55.220
okay now we want to talk about

01:01:56.720 --> 01:01:59.579
projects a new theory of the body

01:01:59.579 --> 01:02:03.319
now we want to try to say

01:02:03.319 --> 01:02:06.480
what how does what we've learned about

01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:10.680
memory what are the important parts

01:02:10.680 --> 01:02:17.000
in composing this new theory of the body

01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:19.140
um

01:02:19.140 --> 01:02:20.760
um

01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:22.380
and

01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:25.200
one of the things that I think I put in

01:02:25.200 --> 01:02:29.280
the in the content was Andy Clark's

01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:30.500
Theory

01:02:30.500 --> 01:02:33.059
of of

01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:35.180
um

01:02:35.339 --> 01:02:37.160
there's an energy

01:02:37.160 --> 01:02:41.940
equation which he states that any

01:02:41.940 --> 01:02:44.520
organism and this is true for Collective

01:02:44.520 --> 01:02:46.920
memory too

01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:48.240
um

01:02:48.240 --> 01:02:52.740
every any organism will

01:02:52.799 --> 01:02:55.220
has has

01:02:55.220 --> 01:02:59.059
in the system

01:02:59.180 --> 01:03:02.599
is that

01:03:03.740 --> 01:03:07.319
we change working memory storage which

01:03:07.319 --> 01:03:10.260
means the stuff we have to

01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:14.480
have on our Jam board right then and now

01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:18.119
we change that into procedural memory

01:03:18.119 --> 01:03:19.270
Okay so

01:03:19.270 --> 01:03:21.000
[Music]

01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:21.960
um

01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:24.660
um what we know what we do is we offload

01:03:24.660 --> 01:03:28.200
the energy that's required to memorize

01:03:28.200 --> 01:03:29.819
something

01:03:29.819 --> 01:03:31.380
into

01:03:31.380 --> 01:03:35.700
forms that require less energy okay so

01:03:35.700 --> 01:03:39.299
we already talked about uh the kind of

01:03:39.299 --> 01:03:42.660
precision that's lost when your episodic

01:03:42.660 --> 01:03:46.020
memory gets put into schemas or maps

01:03:46.020 --> 01:03:49.980
maps in long-term memory uh where it's

01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:53.280
less uh the the it's less expensive to

01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:56.160
store whatever that means we'll look at

01:03:56.160 --> 01:03:59.339
later that information

01:03:59.339 --> 01:04:01.619
um when we

01:04:01.619 --> 01:04:04.500
um we don't learn how to ride a bike by

01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:06.780
remembering the instructions

01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:11.099
that memory goes into procedural memory

01:04:11.099 --> 01:04:14.520
if you wanted to answer what would you

01:04:14.520 --> 01:04:17.720
think you have would remember from today

01:04:17.720 --> 01:04:22.500
that you'll remember 20 years from now

01:04:22.500 --> 01:04:25.880
anything like a recipe or you learned

01:04:25.880 --> 01:04:29.040
how to flip

01:04:29.040 --> 01:04:32.220
uh you learn how to use a tool any

01:04:32.220 --> 01:04:35.099
procedures that you learned in any given

01:04:35.099 --> 01:04:37.619
day will be remembered 10 to 20 years

01:04:37.619 --> 01:04:40.319
from now because procedural memory is

01:04:40.319 --> 01:04:43.160
not expensive

01:04:43.380 --> 01:04:45.720
so you you remember you probably haven't

01:04:45.720 --> 01:04:47.400
been in a bike forever you probably

01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:50.099
don't talk about how to ride a bike and

01:04:50.099 --> 01:04:52.140
yet chances are you can get on a bike

01:04:52.140 --> 01:04:57.000
and ride it right so so the so there's

01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:00.359
processes by which anything that's hard

01:05:00.359 --> 01:05:03.319
to remember uh the alphabet for children

01:05:03.319 --> 01:05:05.940
becomes a song

01:05:05.940 --> 01:05:09.380
that and the song is more procedural

01:05:09.380 --> 01:05:13.619
and so so there's these mechanisms by

01:05:13.619 --> 01:05:17.760
which energy memory gets

01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:18.859
um

01:05:18.859 --> 01:05:23.220
transferred to lower and lower costs in

01:05:23.220 --> 01:05:25.020
the organism

01:05:25.020 --> 01:05:28.440
and for people because we're really good

01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:31.500
at this it gets transferred into the

01:05:31.500 --> 01:05:34.859
environment so to remember the points I

01:05:34.859 --> 01:05:36.359
wanted to talk about today I wrote them

01:05:36.359 --> 01:05:37.619
down

01:05:37.619 --> 01:05:40.260
so then I could forget them this is very

01:05:40.260 --> 01:05:44.400
low cost right very low cost

01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:46.380
um I just had to remember how to read

01:05:46.380 --> 01:05:48.059
what I wrote and sometimes I can't

01:05:48.059 --> 01:05:51.119
actually figure out what I wrote but

01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:54.480
um so that's that's so you see that the

01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:57.180
history of collective memory

01:05:57.180 --> 01:06:00.440
is the history of improving

01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:04.079
how far we can extend memory onto the

01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:06.260
world

01:06:07.200 --> 01:06:09.960
so animals

01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:12.420
have a collective memory of who they are

01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:16.020
because they groom each other

01:06:16.020 --> 01:06:19.200
and grooming and ritual is a big part of

01:06:19.200 --> 01:06:20.819
their Collective memory how they

01:06:20.819 --> 01:06:22.920
remember who's dominant who they're

01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:25.859
related to who's their in-group

01:06:25.859 --> 01:06:28.200
but of course that doesn't scale very

01:06:28.200 --> 01:06:31.760
fast in time and space

01:06:33.720 --> 01:06:38.220
so then what they do is they develop the

01:06:38.220 --> 01:06:42.119
ability for memetic memory and so that

01:06:42.119 --> 01:06:46.920
what happens is that

01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:50.940
instead of me having to punch you so

01:06:50.940 --> 01:06:53.700
remember that I'm a bully I just make a

01:06:53.700 --> 01:06:57.299
threat display and we mime the displays

01:06:57.299 --> 01:07:00.720
so now you I can threaten you to keep

01:07:00.720 --> 01:07:02.880
away from my wife when you're way over

01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:06.119
there so greater extension and thought

01:07:06.119 --> 01:07:07.740
space

01:07:07.740 --> 01:07:10.260
greater capacities of people to have a

01:07:10.260 --> 01:07:12.299
collective memory

01:07:12.299 --> 01:07:14.480
thank you

01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:16.619
we're going to go over this when we talk

01:07:16.619 --> 01:07:18.359
about the origins of culture but I'm

01:07:18.359 --> 01:07:20.099
just trying to

01:07:20.099 --> 01:07:22.619
put this in things so then a little

01:07:22.619 --> 01:07:24.059
later on

01:07:24.059 --> 01:07:27.180
if we come to oral memory and that is

01:07:27.180 --> 01:07:30.299
the threat gesture is associated with a

01:07:30.299 --> 01:07:33.420
sound he he or you hear Blue Jays do you

01:07:33.420 --> 01:07:35.400
ever hear Blue Jays warning people that

01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:38.160
the hawk is there so sound travels much

01:07:38.160 --> 01:07:40.400
fast farther

01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:44.099
so you can collectively keep a group of

01:07:44.099 --> 01:07:47.339
people together more by extending memory

01:07:47.339 --> 01:07:50.119
into sound

01:07:52.980 --> 01:07:57.420
then you have narrative the story of

01:07:57.420 --> 01:08:01.500
Ulysses the Homer Homer's narrative

01:08:01.500 --> 01:08:04.079
describe the whole or the or the you

01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:06.240
know the abrahamic stories the talmud

01:08:06.240 --> 01:08:09.960
they describe the whole story of peoples

01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:13.619
we're talking about 10 to 100

01:08:13.619 --> 01:08:15.799
000 people

01:08:15.799 --> 01:08:19.020
collectively understanding themselves

01:08:19.020 --> 01:08:22.319
as a people it's it's not memory in the

01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:23.580
way we're talking about it it's just

01:08:23.580 --> 01:08:25.040
learned

01:08:25.040 --> 01:08:28.859
memory then of course you have text and

01:08:28.859 --> 01:08:31.319
with text people the Crusaders you know

01:08:31.319 --> 01:08:33.839
right across the continent and give

01:08:33.839 --> 01:08:35.460
deliver the Bible

01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:38.580
uh to someone halfway across the world

01:08:38.580 --> 01:08:41.060
and text

01:08:41.060 --> 01:08:44.520
became extremely powerful

01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:47.040
it established the ability for

01:08:47.040 --> 01:08:49.620
colonialism for example because someone

01:08:49.620 --> 01:08:52.920
could write a contract in London and

01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:55.199
change the course of history

01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:58.160
in India

01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:02.520
larger GL State social space more people

01:09:02.520 --> 01:09:04.500
more territory

01:09:04.500 --> 01:09:07.380
this is offloading memories then we come

01:09:07.380 --> 01:09:10.620
to them you know that that modern

01:09:10.620 --> 01:09:12.359
century

01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:14.699
once the printing press was then

01:09:14.699 --> 01:09:17.600
invented this like really

01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:19.920
scaffolded text

01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:23.940
until by the time I was in school there

01:09:23.940 --> 01:09:25.679
was you know you see these great

01:09:25.679 --> 01:09:28.199
libraries there's millions and millions

01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:30.179
and millions of books in Persia and

01:09:30.179 --> 01:09:31.859
there's millions and millions of books

01:09:31.859 --> 01:09:34.080
in the library Congress

01:09:34.080 --> 01:09:37.560
and so the interesting thing here is

01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:39.839
that

01:09:39.839 --> 01:09:42.960
you have the need for industrial

01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:45.600
education because even though there's

01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:48.359
all this memory stored in text

01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:50.640
there's no way for the culture to

01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:53.640
remember it you had to use children's

01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:58.380
brains to be the retrieval interface

01:09:58.380 --> 01:10:01.560
they do no good for you if if there

01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:03.840
aren't people who can read them and

01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:06.840
retrieve them because memory has to be

01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:09.540
constantly updated right

01:10:09.540 --> 01:10:12.540
so do you get the need

01:10:12.540 --> 01:10:18.000
for as you turn into a a knowledge

01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:19.620
economy

01:10:19.620 --> 01:10:22.860
you get the need to have schools which

01:10:22.860 --> 01:10:27.060
download which train Minds to be memory

01:10:27.060 --> 01:10:29.040
storage there's no other place to put it

01:10:29.040 --> 01:10:31.620
it's in the text but they you train my

01:10:31.620 --> 01:10:36.860
you need a retrieval a retrieval system

01:10:37.440 --> 01:10:41.580
and this is why we think memory has to

01:10:41.580 --> 01:10:43.860
do with storing things

01:10:43.860 --> 01:10:46.080
because this is how our minds have been

01:10:46.080 --> 01:10:48.060
developed by the knowledge economy

01:10:48.060 --> 01:10:50.219
Western culture

01:10:50.219 --> 01:10:53.640
but I mean it just right you had you had

01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:55.080
to do something

01:10:55.080 --> 01:10:58.140
okay so you had to have enough biology

01:10:58.140 --> 01:11:01.739
so there's enough people could go and

01:11:01.739 --> 01:11:04.340
teach biology so the biology the the

01:11:04.340 --> 01:11:07.920
collective memory of biology could be

01:11:07.920 --> 01:11:09.600
transmitted from generation to

01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.100
generation and you get the knowledge

01:11:11.100 --> 01:11:12.300
economy

01:11:12.300 --> 01:11:14.820
now

01:11:14.820 --> 01:11:18.000
with the rise of digital the first thing

01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:22.199
that happened is people invented ways to

01:11:22.199 --> 01:11:26.460
miniaturize books so did anybody ever

01:11:26.460 --> 01:11:28.199
have to go to the library and use

01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:30.780
microfiche

01:11:30.780 --> 01:11:33.000
it's no different than having to read a

01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:35.520
million books it's just that the million

01:11:35.520 --> 01:11:37.560
books is you know only takes up this

01:11:37.560 --> 01:11:40.320
amount of space or I have a I have a

01:11:40.320 --> 01:11:42.239
um uh

01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:45.900
dictionary Oxford English English

01:11:45.900 --> 01:11:49.140
dictionary that's on that's huge

01:11:49.140 --> 01:11:51.239
but the text is so small you use a

01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:53.400
magnifying glass you know like that so

01:11:53.400 --> 01:11:55.380
they did develop Technologies to

01:11:55.380 --> 01:11:57.239
miniaturize it but doesn't really help

01:11:57.239 --> 01:11:59.520
right it just helps with physical

01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:01.080
storage

01:12:01.080 --> 01:12:02.880
and the same thing is when they

01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:05.280
developed the floppy disk or hard drives

01:12:05.280 --> 01:12:08.280
it just miniaturized how the information

01:12:08.280 --> 01:12:10.620
was stored

01:12:10.620 --> 01:12:14.340
but when Google invented search

01:12:14.340 --> 01:12:17.580
you no longer needed people

01:12:17.580 --> 01:12:21.060
to be the interface to retrieve the

01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:23.239
information

01:12:24.719 --> 01:12:29.760
and now we have chat GTP GPT which

01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:32.580
enables you through natural inquiring

01:12:32.580 --> 01:12:34.020
language

01:12:34.020 --> 01:12:36.360
to search

01:12:36.360 --> 01:12:37.620
okay

01:12:37.620 --> 01:12:43.520
so you see this long extended Arc of

01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:47.460
storing memory and it's always the

01:12:47.460 --> 01:12:49.380
retrieval process

01:12:49.380 --> 01:12:50.880
which

01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:54.000
is a significant

01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:56.820
invention it's more it's as as

01:12:56.820 --> 01:13:00.300
significant as text because it changes

01:13:00.300 --> 01:13:02.820
the game of text

01:13:02.820 --> 01:13:04.800
storage

01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:07.280
okay

01:13:07.280 --> 01:13:12.540
so we no longer need

01:13:12.540 --> 01:13:16.980
to use people's brains

01:13:16.980 --> 01:13:20.760
to store all that stuff

01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:25.380
this is a fantastic opportunity to ask

01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:27.480
what is the nature of mind what is the

01:13:27.480 --> 01:13:29.100
nature of memory what are the faculties

01:13:29.100 --> 01:13:30.480
we have

01:13:30.480 --> 01:13:32.880
and what are people good at

01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:35.840
that we can do

01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:41.179
and so this is really important because

01:13:41.219 --> 01:13:42.960
you'll see there's a lot of people

01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:46.440
trying to and I know there's a couple of

01:13:46.440 --> 01:13:48.840
videos out there one young man talking

01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:52.920
to Zack Stein he's trying to build AI to

01:13:52.920 --> 01:13:54.900
teach children because he wants why

01:13:54.900 --> 01:13:56.820
should the AI be smarter than children

01:13:56.820 --> 01:13:59.760
and I'm like

01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:02.699
are never going to be smarter than than

01:14:02.699 --> 01:14:05.880
even what chat you know than the AI

01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:08.460
because we're not good at storing

01:14:08.460 --> 01:14:10.699
information

01:14:10.980 --> 01:14:14.159
it's just it's ridiculous to think let's

01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:17.580
let's catch up let's create systems

01:14:17.580 --> 01:14:20.340
where it's more

01:14:20.340 --> 01:14:23.940
liberating to think thank God

01:14:23.940 --> 01:14:27.500
we don't have to do that anymore

01:14:27.780 --> 01:14:30.420
it's not natural intelligence it's just

01:14:30.420 --> 01:14:33.360
storage of information

01:14:33.360 --> 01:14:38.520
and so this opens up a whole new horizon

01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:41.340
for what are people for

01:14:41.340 --> 01:14:42.960
and

01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:46.880
there needs to be more

01:14:47.480 --> 01:14:50.940
transparent enthusiasm

01:14:50.940 --> 01:14:53.960
about this

01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:56.520
and you'll find that

01:14:56.520 --> 01:14:59.460
people are more for

01:14:59.460 --> 01:15:01.739
creating screenplays and putting on

01:15:01.739 --> 01:15:03.000
plays

01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:05.520
we've involved more to do things like

01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:07.440
that

01:15:07.440 --> 01:15:10.800
than to be hard drives for the knowledge

01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:11.940
economy

01:15:11.940 --> 01:15:15.120
that's it we're not good we're not good

01:15:15.120 --> 01:15:19.679
at that it's it's not our skill set

01:15:19.679 --> 01:15:21.960
which is confused because for years

01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:27.120
that's what children had I mean we had

01:15:27.120 --> 01:15:28.440
no choice really unless you're gonna

01:15:28.440 --> 01:15:33.420
lose all that knowledge so so this is

01:15:33.420 --> 01:15:35.480
one of the

01:15:35.480 --> 01:15:38.719
messages in our work

01:15:38.719 --> 01:15:43.500
that I find extremely hopeful

01:15:43.500 --> 01:15:47.659
um and uh

01:15:49.219 --> 01:15:53.400
yeah and I think that

01:15:53.400 --> 01:15:55.400
um

01:16:01.320 --> 01:16:05.400
yeah I think that there are like that

01:16:05.400 --> 01:16:08.360
whole game is

01:16:08.460 --> 01:16:11.699
gone that whole that whole social need

01:16:11.699 --> 01:16:14.159
is really

01:16:14.159 --> 01:16:17.659
um yeah gone

01:16:18.659 --> 01:16:20.820
it's what I was saying in the education

01:16:20.820 --> 01:16:24.659
we at the education panel in in the

01:16:24.659 --> 01:16:26.280
consilience project and nobody

01:16:26.280 --> 01:16:28.739
understood me except Zach Zach had to

01:16:28.739 --> 01:16:30.780
bail me out if you were there people

01:16:30.780 --> 01:16:32.760
were like well we still need to teach

01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:34.380
children to read books and I'm like yeah

01:16:34.380 --> 01:16:36.179
but you're not gonna have them read

01:16:36.179 --> 01:16:38.159
books so they can memorize things you're

01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:40.620
going to have them read real gay because

01:16:40.620 --> 01:16:42.360
they're going to have a transformative

01:16:42.360 --> 01:16:46.140
experience you know like like that's not

01:16:46.140 --> 01:16:49.640
what I was saying Raj

01:16:50.300 --> 01:16:54.179
Lonnie I'm I'm uh this is so helpful as

01:16:54.179 --> 01:16:55.920
you're sort of laying it out

01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:58.500
and the possibility that you're speaking

01:16:58.500 --> 01:17:01.140
to and I start thinking about the

01:17:01.140 --> 01:17:02.580
context

01:17:02.580 --> 01:17:05.100
and what I don't know is if the context

01:17:05.100 --> 01:17:07.860
has changed

01:17:07.860 --> 01:17:10.140
um in terms of what what's required of

01:17:10.140 --> 01:17:13.380
us how we're supposed to be

01:17:13.380 --> 01:17:17.100
um is that happening as as we're sort of

01:17:17.100 --> 01:17:19.860
shifting into this um

01:17:19.860 --> 01:17:22.620
storage and retrieval in different ways

01:17:22.620 --> 01:17:25.500
that that allows us to re-examine what

01:17:25.500 --> 01:17:27.600
are humans for

01:17:27.600 --> 01:17:31.080
yeah so it's happening

01:17:31.080 --> 01:17:32.699
at different rates in different

01:17:32.699 --> 01:17:35.760
institutions right so

01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:38.400
uh educational institutions in a

01:17:38.400 --> 01:17:41.520
notoriously hard to change because

01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:43.679
parents feel there's so much at stake

01:17:43.679 --> 01:17:45.960
okay

01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:50.300
um so uh paradoxically

01:17:50.300 --> 01:17:53.940
they would they will probably be the

01:17:53.940 --> 01:17:56.940
slowest to change now having said that

01:17:56.940 --> 01:17:58.920
we have

01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:01.620
a generative function that's working for

01:18:01.620 --> 01:18:05.580
us and that is capitalism believe it or

01:18:05.580 --> 01:18:06.900
not

01:18:06.900 --> 01:18:07.679
um

01:18:07.679 --> 01:18:10.020
you know if capitalism is working for

01:18:10.020 --> 01:18:12.920
you then you know it's a it's a it's a

01:18:12.920 --> 01:18:14.600
powerful

01:18:14.600 --> 01:18:17.580
momentum and that is

01:18:17.580 --> 01:18:19.199
um

01:18:19.199 --> 01:18:21.300
let me explain it this way

01:18:21.300 --> 01:18:25.199
you know that there are

01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:28.199
I just realized how funny it is that I

01:18:28.199 --> 01:18:29.460
just said what I did because some of

01:18:29.460 --> 01:18:31.920
someone who has so many facts and I know

01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:35.300
so many facts

01:18:36.440 --> 01:18:39.900
but uh that's that's just the

01:18:39.900 --> 01:18:43.620
peculiarity of mine so

01:18:43.620 --> 01:18:45.679
um

01:18:48.659 --> 01:18:52.760
so you know how

01:18:53.820 --> 01:18:55.800
a telephony story and then I'll tell you

01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:57.120
a fact and answer your question because

01:18:57.120 --> 01:19:01.800
we have plenty of time so when I was in

01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:02.940
um

01:19:02.940 --> 01:19:06.780
us a freshman sophomore junior in

01:19:06.780 --> 01:19:08.760
college in the second semester I was

01:19:08.760 --> 01:19:12.060
taking biochemistry and

01:19:12.060 --> 01:19:16.140
um I had all I had already applied for

01:19:16.140 --> 01:19:19.199
college I mean for graduate school and

01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:23.580
early entry yeah early application so

01:19:23.580 --> 01:19:25.440
um

01:19:25.440 --> 01:19:27.480
so

01:19:27.480 --> 01:19:31.320
I was taking this biochemistry exam and

01:19:31.320 --> 01:19:34.620
for me the point of biochemistry is was

01:19:34.620 --> 01:19:37.560
to understand biochemistry

01:19:37.560 --> 01:19:42.120
and one of the and this jerk would ask

01:19:42.120 --> 01:19:45.179
questions like you know

01:19:45.179 --> 01:19:48.600
parse out all the links and molecules in

01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:52.920
you know tries glyceride you know these

01:19:52.920 --> 01:19:55.640
huge words

01:19:55.980 --> 01:20:00.179
and I used to do that well

01:20:00.179 --> 01:20:02.580
but the very last

01:20:02.580 --> 01:20:04.860
exam I'd already gotten it to college

01:20:04.860 --> 01:20:08.040
and so I wrote why the

01:20:08.040 --> 01:20:10.500
do you think this is education for us to

01:20:10.500 --> 01:20:13.080
memorize these things I'm not answering

01:20:13.080 --> 01:20:16.679
it and I gotta M so like

01:20:16.679 --> 01:20:18.900
this has been on my radar for a long

01:20:18.900 --> 01:20:20.760
time like you know it just can go and

01:20:20.760 --> 01:20:22.980
look in the book if you're working on

01:20:22.980 --> 01:20:24.840
that particular problem refresh your

01:20:24.840 --> 01:20:27.739
memory but it was like

01:20:27.739 --> 01:20:31.580
uh the anyways so

01:20:31.580 --> 01:20:35.820
what we have working for us is that if

01:20:35.820 --> 01:20:38.280
get as a as a metaphor

01:20:38.280 --> 01:20:40.800
there are these asteroids that are

01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:44.580
accessible to people we could go and

01:20:44.580 --> 01:20:46.320
um you could look it up on Wikipedia

01:20:46.320 --> 01:20:48.120
they have a list of all the asteroids

01:20:48.120 --> 01:20:50.100
and the department of Mining and

01:20:50.100 --> 01:20:51.719
Engineering knows what they're made up

01:20:51.719 --> 01:20:54.719
of and they estimate the values of the

01:20:54.719 --> 01:20:57.179
rare and Precious Minerals in them

01:20:57.179 --> 01:20:59.640
so some of those asteroids have like a

01:20:59.640 --> 01:21:01.800
trillion dollars worth of

01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:03.840
minerals

01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:07.260
and then in another column they estimate

01:21:07.260 --> 01:21:10.440
the costs um mining them and bringing

01:21:10.440 --> 01:21:12.659
those minerals back to Earth

01:21:12.659 --> 01:21:15.360
and the the costs run in the low

01:21:15.360 --> 01:21:16.679
billions

01:21:16.679 --> 01:21:19.320
so you ask yourself

01:21:19.320 --> 01:21:21.900
if it's a few billion dollars to bring

01:21:21.900 --> 01:21:24.179
the asteroid back to Earth

01:21:24.179 --> 01:21:26.280
and the minerals are worth trillions of

01:21:26.280 --> 01:21:31.280
dollars why doesn't Elon go get them

01:21:32.699 --> 01:21:36.320
does anyone know the answer

01:21:47.159 --> 01:21:50.400
because as soon as that trillion dollars

01:21:50.400 --> 01:21:53.900
of minerals lands on the Earth

01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:55.920
they're not worth anything they're not

01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:57.120
rare anymore

01:21:57.120 --> 01:21:58.620
okay

01:21:58.620 --> 01:22:02.880
so as soon as chat GTP consumes

01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:04.739
everything knowledge won't be worth

01:22:04.739 --> 01:22:07.380
anything anymore it just won't be it's

01:22:07.380 --> 01:22:09.179
just the same as bringing a trillion

01:22:09.179 --> 01:22:10.400
dollars

01:22:10.400 --> 01:22:12.719
back to Earth

01:22:12.719 --> 01:22:16.500
so the very laws of capitalism will rush

01:22:16.500 --> 01:22:18.960
to change through the educational

01:22:18.960 --> 01:22:21.780
institutions

01:22:21.780 --> 01:22:24.199
ha

01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:27.980
huh

01:22:28.860 --> 01:22:31.560
and Jordan Hall knows more about this

01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:34.800
stuff I think he gave me a yup on

01:22:34.800 --> 01:22:36.480
Twitter when I suggested that would be

01:22:36.480 --> 01:22:39.960
the case so that's that will be the

01:22:39.960 --> 01:22:42.780
driving force of the devaluation of this

01:22:42.780 --> 01:22:45.120
kind of schooling it won't be from Good

01:22:45.120 --> 01:22:47.280
Intentions in the education the good

01:22:47.280 --> 01:22:48.540
intentions in the educational

01:22:48.540 --> 01:22:50.880
institution will actually slow down

01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:54.239
progress but the perverse incentives of

01:22:54.239 --> 01:23:00.320
the market will provide the push

01:23:02.760 --> 01:23:04.320
no one's going to pay two hundred

01:23:04.320 --> 01:23:06.659
thousand dollars to go to school

01:23:06.659 --> 01:23:10.080
when you can't do the job in chat GPT is

01:23:10.080 --> 01:23:13.520
this not gonna this is not gonna happen

01:23:18.920 --> 01:23:21.300
hence more people will come to schools

01:23:21.300 --> 01:23:23.400
like this

01:23:23.400 --> 01:23:26.520
chat gpts I'm gonna say feel that change

01:23:26.520 --> 01:23:30.659
in your body between imagination and

01:23:30.659 --> 01:23:32.520
memory

01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:36.080
doesn't know what it feels like

01:24:06.239 --> 01:24:09.000
most of the learning will be more around

01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:12.260
what we're really good at procedures

01:24:12.260 --> 01:24:15.600
procedural learning how to heal with our

01:24:15.600 --> 01:24:16.699
hands

01:24:16.699 --> 01:24:20.580
it's a procedure we we these things are

01:24:20.580 --> 01:24:21.770
long-term

01:24:21.770 --> 01:24:23.219
[Music]

01:24:23.219 --> 01:24:26.120
memories

01:24:26.940 --> 01:24:30.719
Dance Art

01:24:30.800 --> 01:24:35.580
crafts music these are all procedural

01:24:35.580 --> 01:24:38.340
in nature

01:24:38.340 --> 01:24:39.740
this is what we're good at

01:24:39.740 --> 01:24:41.420
[Music]

01:24:41.420 --> 01:24:45.739
so the world's going to change

01:24:48.540 --> 01:24:51.800
again Hallelujah

01:24:55.020 --> 01:25:01.080
um I'm not sure what I'm going to say

01:25:01.080 --> 01:25:03.920
uh

01:25:06.679 --> 01:25:11.960
okay I'm gonna come back go ahead

01:25:20.460 --> 01:25:23.060
foreign

01:25:36.920 --> 01:25:39.780
psychology it's imprinted cellular

01:25:39.780 --> 01:25:41.400
memory

01:25:41.400 --> 01:25:45.540
I feel maybe there's a question here

01:25:45.540 --> 01:25:48.600
do you when you hear those words

01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:51.900
versus procedural memory are they the

01:25:51.900 --> 01:25:55.380
same thing for you are they related

01:25:55.380 --> 01:25:58.199
uh

01:25:58.199 --> 01:26:01.860
I I usually see them as different but it

01:26:01.860 --> 01:26:04.199
depends on what your procedural memory

01:26:04.199 --> 01:26:06.659
is like you will always remember how to

01:26:06.659 --> 01:26:10.739
ride a bike or play a musical instrument

01:26:10.739 --> 01:26:13.560
you get so you don't think about it it

01:26:13.560 --> 01:26:16.260
becomes a procedure it's it or how to

01:26:16.260 --> 01:26:18.540
dance well

01:26:18.540 --> 01:26:22.560
um or whereas imprinted somatic memory

01:26:22.560 --> 01:26:25.320
sounds like psychic

01:26:25.320 --> 01:26:27.719
structures to me

01:26:27.719 --> 01:26:29.239
but

01:26:29.239 --> 01:26:31.800
in your Soma

01:26:31.800 --> 01:26:35.480
the procedural memory is more in your

01:26:35.480 --> 01:26:39.239
moving uh

01:26:39.239 --> 01:26:43.679
action movement action

01:26:43.679 --> 01:26:44.460
um

01:26:44.460 --> 01:26:46.940
yeah

01:26:53.340 --> 01:26:54.620
um

01:26:54.620 --> 01:26:58.560
yes so I I hear that differentiation

01:26:58.560 --> 01:27:01.500
and uh

01:27:01.500 --> 01:27:04.380
at the same time

01:27:04.380 --> 01:27:07.380
uh

01:27:08.179 --> 01:27:12.620
you know the imprinted

01:27:13.280 --> 01:27:17.460
pattern behavioral pattern that might be

01:27:17.460 --> 01:27:20.520
running me unconsciously is also ending

01:27:20.520 --> 01:27:23.820
up in actions

01:27:23.820 --> 01:27:25.199
um

01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:29.100
I perceived riding a bike versus like

01:27:29.100 --> 01:27:32.940
snapping at my husband out of habit

01:27:32.940 --> 01:27:35.880
or at my child because I was not that

01:27:35.880 --> 01:27:38.219
that way

01:27:38.219 --> 01:27:41.120
a little similarly like I

01:27:41.120 --> 01:27:46.020
and and how it lives in me that's just

01:27:46.020 --> 01:27:48.380
uh

01:27:49.860 --> 01:27:52.920
I feel like there's a relationship there

01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:56.780
yeah that I can't really explain

01:27:57.600 --> 01:27:59.400
yeah those are those are primary

01:27:59.400 --> 01:28:05.540
psychological schemas so the the mapped

01:28:05.540 --> 01:28:07.260
Matt

01:28:07.260 --> 01:28:11.639
in in generalized ways right so uh it's

01:28:11.639 --> 01:28:13.199
generalized because there's a trigger

01:28:13.199 --> 01:28:15.719
and there's a response it's not nuanced

01:28:15.719 --> 01:28:18.420
you're not in the in the nuance and

01:28:18.420 --> 01:28:21.480
context of the present moment

01:28:21.480 --> 01:28:25.100
so you're basically acting from Old

01:28:25.100 --> 01:28:29.159
Habits not from present perception

01:28:29.159 --> 01:28:31.620
you're not in the present

01:28:31.620 --> 01:28:35.340
you're just scripted by

01:28:35.340 --> 01:28:39.060
schemas that you've you've enacted so

01:28:39.060 --> 01:28:41.159
many times that the whole thing is

01:28:41.159 --> 01:28:43.500
Habitual

01:28:43.500 --> 01:28:45.620
um

01:28:46.699 --> 01:28:49.620
but the origin of where it's pulling

01:28:49.620 --> 01:28:52.920
from is similar to where my body is

01:28:52.920 --> 01:28:56.040
falling from when I'm on the bike

01:28:56.040 --> 01:28:58.880
doesn't it

01:28:58.880 --> 01:29:04.460
uh I I don't know I mean it's it's it's

01:29:04.679 --> 01:29:07.679
the when you're riding the bike

01:29:07.679 --> 01:29:10.199
everything is in the moment you don't

01:29:10.199 --> 01:29:11.699
have to it's not

01:29:11.699 --> 01:29:13.440
it's not

01:29:13.440 --> 01:29:15.540
you don't have an image you're not using

01:29:15.540 --> 01:29:18.060
an image of riding the bike or a schema

01:29:18.060 --> 01:29:20.219
of riding the bike in order to ride the

01:29:20.219 --> 01:29:22.320
bike you're just as just woo way you're

01:29:22.320 --> 01:29:24.440
just riding the bike

01:29:24.440 --> 01:29:28.020
it's not it's it's completely

01:29:28.020 --> 01:29:31.560
and it's got no you know it's not

01:29:31.560 --> 01:29:33.960
dependent upon affected memory or

01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:36.199
emotional tagging it's just something

01:29:36.199 --> 01:29:39.540
it's it's procedural memory is walking

01:29:39.540 --> 01:29:41.880
you know how to walk because you learned

01:29:41.880 --> 01:29:44.820
how to walk uh they completely sensory

01:29:44.820 --> 01:29:48.120
motor animal body

01:29:48.120 --> 01:29:49.940
um

01:29:49.940 --> 01:29:54.659
functions whereas these somatic memories

01:29:54.659 --> 01:29:57.719
are usually tagged with emotional

01:29:57.719 --> 01:29:59.760
content

01:29:59.760 --> 01:30:02.280
um they're they're

01:30:02.280 --> 01:30:03.080
um

01:30:03.080 --> 01:30:05.900
generalized memories they're not

01:30:05.900 --> 01:30:08.420
uh contextual

01:30:08.420 --> 01:30:10.920
which is why

01:30:10.920 --> 01:30:12.420
you know they're not they're not

01:30:12.420 --> 01:30:14.880
accurate and there's they're like

01:30:14.880 --> 01:30:17.159
schemas so

01:30:17.159 --> 01:30:19.219
um

01:30:20.460 --> 01:30:24.840
you don't you don't yeah so I would say

01:30:24.840 --> 01:30:27.420
I I don't I see that they're quite quite

01:30:27.420 --> 01:30:28.920
different procedural number is like

01:30:28.920 --> 01:30:30.659
learning how to bake a cake or learning

01:30:30.659 --> 01:30:33.120
how to ride a bike or learning how to

01:30:33.120 --> 01:30:36.120
play a musical instrument or

01:30:36.120 --> 01:30:36.780
um

01:30:36.780 --> 01:30:40.080
you're not drawing on some some stuck

01:30:40.080 --> 01:30:43.620
pattern you're learning and you're

01:30:43.620 --> 01:30:45.199
becoming

01:30:45.199 --> 01:30:49.679
uh fluent and self-organizing with the

01:30:49.679 --> 01:30:51.540
instrument

01:30:51.540 --> 01:30:55.560
um so yeah yeah yeah I get it I get it

01:30:55.560 --> 01:30:59.100
um and please don't see what you're

01:30:59.100 --> 01:31:01.620
talking about is more like if I learned

01:31:01.620 --> 01:31:04.260
how to play one song on an instrument

01:31:04.260 --> 01:31:06.239
and every time I picked up the

01:31:06.239 --> 01:31:07.739
instrument I thought that's what the

01:31:07.739 --> 01:31:10.560
instrument is for used to play that song

01:31:10.560 --> 01:31:14.100
that's not procedural knowing that's

01:31:14.100 --> 01:31:16.800
that's just habit

01:31:16.800 --> 01:31:18.780
once I know how to play the instrument

01:31:18.780 --> 01:31:22.920
then all kinds of things become possible

01:31:22.920 --> 01:31:24.179
yeah

01:31:24.179 --> 01:31:27.540
yeah it's just I so in the healing

01:31:27.540 --> 01:31:30.719
process of for example very personal

01:31:30.719 --> 01:31:34.080
example of oh I'm terrified of giving a

01:31:34.080 --> 01:31:36.540
presentation

01:31:36.540 --> 01:31:41.639
um and it is a very lit physical

01:31:41.639 --> 01:31:45.300
experience of Terror

01:31:45.300 --> 01:31:48.600
and then the way to change that is

01:31:48.600 --> 01:31:52.620
actually very much like riding a bike

01:31:52.620 --> 01:31:57.620
like learning to do this and

01:31:57.620 --> 01:32:00.000
experiencing positive you know

01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:02.460
successful versions of giving a

01:32:02.460 --> 01:32:05.219
presentation over and over and over

01:32:05.219 --> 01:32:09.600
again until it becomes procedural and I

01:32:09.600 --> 01:32:10.980
I treat

01:32:10.980 --> 01:32:13.560
exactly looking at my husband's

01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:16.440
similarly yeah okay yeah so they're two

01:32:16.440 --> 01:32:19.219
different things the somatic memory

01:32:19.219 --> 01:32:22.820
is stuck and you're turning it into

01:32:22.820 --> 01:32:25.679
procedural memory which is a not a

01:32:25.679 --> 01:32:27.260
stuckness

01:32:27.260 --> 01:32:31.380
by looking at it through a procedure and

01:32:31.380 --> 01:32:32.760
so that's why they're different things

01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:36.840
yeah okay okay now I now I'm getting the

01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:38.520
relationship yeah yeah that makes sense

01:32:38.520 --> 01:32:40.020
okay

01:32:40.020 --> 01:32:43.679
okay yeah you can improve on that by

01:32:43.679 --> 01:32:45.600
procedures because as I said we're good

01:32:45.600 --> 01:32:47.400
at procedures it's something we're good

01:32:47.400 --> 01:32:48.659
at

01:32:48.659 --> 01:32:50.940
we're not really good at remembering our

01:32:50.940 --> 01:32:52.920
childhood we generalize it into these

01:32:52.920 --> 01:32:56.219
schemas they're not they're not useful

01:32:56.219 --> 01:32:58.920
if we were really good at memory

01:32:58.920 --> 01:33:01.440
remembering our childhood experiences in

01:33:01.440 --> 01:33:04.139
a larger context of the world in our

01:33:04.139 --> 01:33:06.480
parents lives and how human beings are

01:33:06.480 --> 01:33:08.699
then they wouldn't become schemas

01:33:08.699 --> 01:33:10.699
because we'd be good at actually

01:33:10.699 --> 01:33:14.940
understanding the complexity of it

01:33:14.940 --> 01:33:18.300
but yeah what I was saying is that we

01:33:18.300 --> 01:33:20.460
are going to the kinds of things we can

01:33:20.460 --> 01:33:21.420
learn

01:33:21.420 --> 01:33:23.580
uh will be in the future will be more

01:33:23.580 --> 01:33:25.250
like procedural things

01:33:25.250 --> 01:33:26.460
[Music]

01:33:26.460 --> 01:33:27.960
um yeah

01:33:27.960 --> 01:33:29.730
Alex

01:33:29.730 --> 01:33:32.770
[Music]

01:33:34.260 --> 01:33:35.219
um

01:33:35.219 --> 01:33:40.800
yeah so I was just wondering about

01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:43.199
kind of what you thought about the idea

01:33:43.199 --> 01:33:44.239
of

01:33:44.239 --> 01:33:47.840
morphogenetic Fields like sheldrake has

01:33:47.840 --> 01:33:50.940
popularized maybe even

01:33:50.940 --> 01:33:53.940
came up with that sort of concept in

01:33:53.940 --> 01:33:56.040
some sense that

01:33:56.040 --> 01:33:57.840
in terms of the

01:33:57.840 --> 01:34:00.360
information existing somewhere such that

01:34:00.360 --> 01:34:03.300
the classic example is that the the mice

01:34:03.300 --> 01:34:05.400
are timed and how fast they figure out

01:34:05.400 --> 01:34:06.659
the maze

01:34:06.659 --> 01:34:09.960
and then subsequent

01:34:09.960 --> 01:34:12.780
to figuring it out there's a new say a

01:34:12.780 --> 01:34:14.580
new generation of mice that are put into

01:34:14.580 --> 01:34:16.440
the same maze but they're not

01:34:16.440 --> 01:34:18.900
genetically related and they have not

01:34:18.900 --> 01:34:21.659
had any contact with the original group

01:34:21.659 --> 01:34:23.400
that figured out the maze

01:34:23.400 --> 01:34:26.040
and they will run the maze faster more

01:34:26.040 --> 01:34:27.900
efficiently than the

01:34:27.900 --> 01:34:31.860
because the first group figured it out

01:34:31.860 --> 01:34:34.679
and so I don't know

01:34:34.679 --> 01:34:38.300
if I'm just sort of

01:34:38.340 --> 01:34:40.800
speaking about

01:34:40.800 --> 01:34:44.340
um pseudo-scientific bullcrap or if you

01:34:44.340 --> 01:34:45.840
know in other words I'm not really

01:34:45.840 --> 01:34:48.000
familiar with the original science on

01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:48.960
that

01:34:48.960 --> 01:34:50.580
I'm just sort of repeating what

01:34:50.580 --> 01:34:53.460
sheldrick has said you know

01:34:53.460 --> 01:34:55.560
um but so I'm curious to know like what

01:34:55.560 --> 01:34:57.719
are you familiar with that I assume you

01:34:57.719 --> 01:34:59.400
are and then what

01:34:59.400 --> 01:35:02.280
is that right or is there and if so how

01:35:02.280 --> 01:35:05.400
do you explain that phenomenon

01:35:05.400 --> 01:35:07.920
okay

01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:09.659
so

01:35:09.659 --> 01:35:12.659
first of all I don't know and it's very

01:35:12.659 --> 01:35:16.159
we can ask chat gee you should ask

01:35:16.159 --> 01:35:19.139
Chachi PT is gonna say pseudoscience

01:35:19.139 --> 01:35:23.219
because that's the official thing but if

01:35:23.219 --> 01:35:25.380
you go and research it there'll be as

01:35:25.380 --> 01:35:26.639
many things showing that it's

01:35:26.639 --> 01:35:28.440
pseudoscience is showing that it's

01:35:28.440 --> 01:35:30.020
science so

01:35:30.020 --> 01:35:34.199
it's very hard to know uh that

01:35:34.199 --> 01:35:39.120
um so I'm so but I suspect

01:35:39.120 --> 01:35:42.500
so I I'm not sure uh about whether

01:35:42.500 --> 01:35:45.420
there's real science there or not

01:35:45.420 --> 01:35:46.739
the

01:35:46.739 --> 01:35:50.940
the my but let's say the science is done

01:35:50.940 --> 01:35:52.080
right

01:35:52.080 --> 01:35:54.239
the research is done right

01:35:54.239 --> 01:35:58.100
even then you don't need

01:35:58.380 --> 01:36:01.080
if the research is done right then you

01:36:01.080 --> 01:36:03.600
would have to say it's as if there's

01:36:03.600 --> 01:36:06.360
something like a morphogenetic field and

01:36:06.360 --> 01:36:09.659
then you have to find what that is I

01:36:09.659 --> 01:36:12.420
don't believe in third terminism this is

01:36:12.420 --> 01:36:15.540
what we always do we have like when we

01:36:15.540 --> 01:36:17.400
don't understand phenomenon we have a

01:36:17.400 --> 01:36:20.940
mystical explanation of it right so it's

01:36:20.940 --> 01:36:24.060
so this is it's as if there's something

01:36:24.060 --> 01:36:26.940
like a morphogenetic field okay right

01:36:26.940 --> 01:36:29.520
right now

01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:36.540
this is a common uh fallacy in in

01:36:36.540 --> 01:36:38.880
science and sometimes it's useful okay

01:36:38.880 --> 01:36:42.060
and what do I mean by that

01:36:42.060 --> 01:36:43.800
do you and I'm going to talk science

01:36:43.800 --> 01:36:45.840
with Alex if this doesn't make sense to

01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:47.820
you that's okay but you know Ohm's law

01:36:47.820 --> 01:36:52.020
right b equals IR I think

01:36:52.020 --> 01:36:54.360
well that

01:36:54.360 --> 01:36:58.139
equation came from imagining electricity

01:36:58.139 --> 01:37:01.320
as a current a stream

01:37:01.320 --> 01:37:04.380
but it's not really that it's

01:37:04.380 --> 01:37:08.540
it's electrons in bumping it's it's it's

01:37:08.540 --> 01:37:12.060
stochastic activity of electrons it's as

01:37:12.060 --> 01:37:15.480
if there's an electric current

01:37:15.480 --> 01:37:18.780
that's true and that can be useful

01:37:18.780 --> 01:37:22.199
to reduce the the complexity of the

01:37:22.199 --> 01:37:23.219
equation

01:37:23.219 --> 01:37:25.100
so

01:37:25.100 --> 01:37:27.360
morphogenetic fields are the same

01:37:27.360 --> 01:37:29.340
they're the same

01:37:29.340 --> 01:37:33.120
I gotcha the reason I brought it up was

01:37:33.120 --> 01:37:35.280
because I was thinking about what Raj

01:37:35.280 --> 01:37:37.139
asked about the

01:37:37.139 --> 01:37:39.420
the context yeah yeah no I I understand

01:37:39.420 --> 01:37:43.440
it and it is something that comes up so

01:37:43.440 --> 01:37:47.600
um so yeah so

01:37:48.060 --> 01:37:50.300
um

01:37:51.120 --> 01:37:54.139
some people argue see it's very complex

01:37:54.139 --> 01:37:58.080
subtle phenomena is very complex because

01:37:58.080 --> 01:38:01.820
all the variables matter

01:38:01.920 --> 01:38:03.860
some people argue that

01:38:03.860 --> 01:38:06.960
[Music]

01:38:07.199 --> 01:38:11.000
the learning is bi-directional that the

01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:13.380
researchers are get getting better at

01:38:13.380 --> 01:38:15.900
designing mazes

01:38:15.900 --> 01:38:18.719
that rats can learn

01:38:18.719 --> 01:38:21.000
it's very subtle like everything is a

01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:22.920
two-way street in these subtle

01:38:22.920 --> 01:38:24.840
experiments

01:38:24.840 --> 01:38:27.659
um so so

01:38:27.659 --> 01:38:31.980
and because the researchers are biased

01:38:31.980 --> 01:38:34.260
toward positive results

01:38:34.260 --> 01:38:36.300
than people who are not biased toward

01:38:36.300 --> 01:38:37.800
positive results don't get the results

01:38:37.800 --> 01:38:39.540
but then you can say Well they're biased

01:38:39.540 --> 01:38:42.300
or negative results and this is why the

01:38:42.300 --> 01:38:45.659
science is on this is not is not clean

01:38:45.659 --> 01:38:49.860
yeah yeah what we do know is that this

01:38:49.860 --> 01:38:53.400
dreaming thing uh does happen because it

01:38:53.400 --> 01:38:55.199
was actually

01:38:55.199 --> 01:38:57.840
um it's it's established science and it

01:38:57.840 --> 01:39:00.420
was actually discovered somewhat by

01:39:00.420 --> 01:39:01.800
accident

01:39:01.800 --> 01:39:03.780
um so

01:39:03.780 --> 01:39:05.840
um

01:39:06.719 --> 01:39:09.620
um So within the same rat dreaming and

01:39:09.620 --> 01:39:12.840
learning hypothetical mazes

01:39:12.840 --> 01:39:14.699
um so

01:39:14.699 --> 01:39:15.960
um

01:39:15.960 --> 01:39:18.960
yeah I mean the thing about people is

01:39:18.960 --> 01:39:21.840
that we take these memories and we

01:39:21.840 --> 01:39:23.940
create dreams that have hypopathetical

01:39:23.940 --> 01:39:25.580
situations

01:39:25.580 --> 01:39:30.060
but when a rat when a rat drinks of a

01:39:30.060 --> 01:39:33.139
hypothetical environment

01:39:34.860 --> 01:39:37.260
there's a pretty good chance that A

01:39:37.260 --> 01:39:39.360
variation in the environment he might

01:39:39.360 --> 01:39:40.620
come across

01:39:40.620 --> 01:39:41.880
um

01:39:41.880 --> 01:39:44.159
but when a person dreams of all the

01:39:44.159 --> 01:39:46.860
variations of virtual variations of

01:39:46.860 --> 01:39:49.020
virtual thoughts of fantasies and that

01:39:49.020 --> 01:39:51.960
gets all mixed up our dreams become less

01:39:51.960 --> 01:39:55.620
useful as hypothetical situations that

01:39:55.620 --> 01:39:57.480
we might come across accepted things

01:39:57.480 --> 01:39:59.760
like the metaverse

01:39:59.760 --> 01:40:02.219
so the thing gets kind of out of control

01:40:02.219 --> 01:40:05.179
really fast

01:40:05.460 --> 01:40:08.880
we start imagining hypotheticals that we

01:40:08.880 --> 01:40:12.300
think are possible that

01:40:12.300 --> 01:40:16.159
are just not are just not not possible

01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:19.920
uh except there there are possible

01:40:19.920 --> 01:40:21.600
because they're possible in the crazy

01:40:21.600 --> 01:40:24.420
imagination of uh of people

01:40:24.420 --> 01:40:26.699
which then they become self-fulfilled

01:40:26.699 --> 01:40:29.159
prophecies like Bank runs and stuff like

01:40:29.159 --> 01:40:31.639
that so it's very complex

01:40:31.639 --> 01:40:34.860
for humans

01:40:34.860 --> 01:40:36.840
it's interesting that we've gotten to

01:40:36.840 --> 01:40:40.080
this place where chat GPT or these large

01:40:40.080 --> 01:40:43.260
language models Etc AI has have it's

01:40:43.260 --> 01:40:46.080
almost like you could say at at some

01:40:46.080 --> 01:40:48.420
reductive level you could say oh there's

01:40:48.420 --> 01:40:50.340
a procedure for create there was a

01:40:50.340 --> 01:40:52.380
procedure or is a procedure for creating

01:40:52.380 --> 01:40:55.040
such a thing as chat GPT

01:40:55.040 --> 01:40:57.540
and then you could say well where did

01:40:57.540 --> 01:41:00.239
that come from who taught us that well

01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:02.219
nobody it like

01:41:02.219 --> 01:41:06.500
it emerged I asked chat

01:41:06.500 --> 01:41:09.440
can I ask I said

01:41:09.440 --> 01:41:12.600
can you tell me the code for creating

01:41:12.600 --> 01:41:16.679
llm on my own computer and he says you

01:41:16.679 --> 01:41:18.719
have to go and you get an API from open

01:41:18.719 --> 01:41:20.580
Ai and blah blah blah and then you do

01:41:20.580 --> 01:41:21.780
this and I'm like why can't you just

01:41:21.780 --> 01:41:24.000
tell me just just write it and I'll just

01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:26.280
tell me what to do with it and it kept

01:41:26.280 --> 01:41:29.940
on like skirting the issue like

01:41:29.940 --> 01:41:32.820
they made sure they that they won't let

01:41:32.820 --> 01:41:36.900
chat gtt give you their code

01:41:36.900 --> 01:41:38.219
yeah

01:41:38.219 --> 01:41:40.679
you have to go buy the API from them and

01:41:40.679 --> 01:41:42.780
then follow the instructions I'm like

01:41:42.780 --> 01:41:44.940
but why can't you just give me the code

01:41:44.940 --> 01:41:47.760
do you know it and he kept on

01:41:47.760 --> 01:41:51.239
being resistant

01:41:51.239 --> 01:41:54.719
just like a caveman yeah the woman back

01:41:54.719 --> 01:41:56.100
in the day

01:41:56.100 --> 01:41:58.260
you know quote unquote discovered fire

01:41:58.260 --> 01:42:01.619
made fire that was that's that's

01:42:01.619 --> 01:42:03.900
something that emerged as a

01:42:03.900 --> 01:42:06.540
in the field of constraints right it was

01:42:06.540 --> 01:42:08.760
something there that could be done it

01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:09.540
wasn't

01:42:09.540 --> 01:42:12.300
and and so it makes me think about you

01:42:12.300 --> 01:42:16.020
know basically anything that is

01:42:16.020 --> 01:42:17.699
is

01:42:17.699 --> 01:42:18.300
um

01:42:18.300 --> 01:42:20.219
you know essentially emerging from a

01:42:20.219 --> 01:42:24.060
field of information okay yeah already

01:42:24.060 --> 01:42:26.880
they're in potential so this is what I

01:42:26.880 --> 01:42:30.179
was going to get into in terms of our

01:42:30.179 --> 01:42:32.580
theory of the body the habitat and

01:42:32.580 --> 01:42:34.880
habitats

01:42:34.880 --> 01:42:38.639
so when when

01:42:38.639 --> 01:42:43.020
even procedural knowledge when I learned

01:42:43.020 --> 01:42:46.800
anything that I learned

01:42:46.800 --> 01:42:48.540
like

01:42:48.540 --> 01:42:53.699
if I learn the alphabet right

01:42:53.699 --> 01:42:56.219
well when I go and ask myself the

01:42:56.219 --> 01:42:58.920
alphabet it's served up from it's

01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:00.840
retrieved from my memory

01:43:00.840 --> 01:43:03.000
okay so that's called semantic or

01:43:03.000 --> 01:43:04.619
declarative memory

01:43:04.619 --> 01:43:07.619
but the level of myself it's their

01:43:07.619 --> 01:43:10.699
procedural memory

01:43:10.980 --> 01:43:12.420
get it

01:43:12.420 --> 01:43:16.440
and at the level of like bacteria they

01:43:16.440 --> 01:43:20.400
have they store some information but

01:43:20.400 --> 01:43:22.500
that also gets encoded in for the

01:43:22.500 --> 01:43:25.500
procedural memory of the organelles in

01:43:25.500 --> 01:43:26.820
the bacteria

01:43:26.820 --> 01:43:31.560
so the whole thing tumbles down

01:43:31.560 --> 01:43:34.260
all the way through the levels of the

01:43:34.260 --> 01:43:35.880
organism

01:43:35.880 --> 01:43:38.300
until

01:43:38.300 --> 01:43:42.480
the organism's memory is the procedure

01:43:42.480 --> 01:43:45.119
of the world

01:43:45.119 --> 01:43:47.219
thank you

01:43:47.219 --> 01:43:51.719
so this notion of how it's built up by

01:43:51.719 --> 01:43:55.440
reducing the task demand is how the what

01:43:55.440 --> 01:43:59.940
it comes up from the world through these

01:43:59.940 --> 01:44:03.060
passing of the task

01:44:03.060 --> 01:44:06.119
to the subsystems for whom that is a

01:44:06.119 --> 01:44:08.659
procedure

01:44:09.119 --> 01:44:11.580
gotcha now you're sounding like Michael

01:44:11.580 --> 01:44:12.860
living

01:44:12.860 --> 01:44:16.940
because he's on to it

01:44:25.020 --> 01:44:28.460
great question John

01:44:29.820 --> 01:44:33.659
well I'm not sure I guess on your uh

01:44:33.659 --> 01:44:36.780
thoughts on this Brave New World that

01:44:36.780 --> 01:44:40.080
we're walking into I've been reading Rob

01:44:40.080 --> 01:44:45.239
Smith of integral on Twitter and uh for

01:44:45.239 --> 01:44:48.300
instance you say capitalism

01:44:48.300 --> 01:44:50.239
is going to be strong

01:44:50.239 --> 01:44:54.300
but he's also saying patents uh or he or

01:44:54.300 --> 01:44:58.139
the thread in relationship to uh chat

01:44:58.139 --> 01:45:00.000
GPT

01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:01.980
um from all the information coming from

01:45:01.980 --> 01:45:05.159
AI it won't necessarily be patentable

01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:07.920
material uh and a lot of other

01:45:07.920 --> 01:45:11.420
businesses will go out uh

01:45:11.420 --> 01:45:14.520
what's the future looking like and I

01:45:14.520 --> 01:45:16.920
love the thought that you know basic

01:45:16.920 --> 01:45:19.619
good natural things that we humans can

01:45:19.619 --> 01:45:21.360
do for people is going to be still

01:45:21.360 --> 01:45:23.219
strong but

01:45:23.219 --> 01:45:25.860
um what's what's happening no you're

01:45:25.860 --> 01:45:28.139
just seeing the the demise of the

01:45:28.139 --> 01:45:32.219
analogy economy because its knowledge is

01:45:32.219 --> 01:45:35.940
completely devalued by chatpt

01:45:35.940 --> 01:45:38.480
right it's like

01:45:38.480 --> 01:45:42.239
uh yeah so that kind of and what I mean

01:45:42.239 --> 01:45:44.699
by knowledge is not understanding or

01:45:44.699 --> 01:45:46.980
Community communicating or creating

01:45:46.980 --> 01:45:50.100
ideas I'm just talking about

01:45:50.100 --> 01:45:53.040
getting the information

01:45:53.040 --> 01:45:55.739
and so Rob is saying the same thing it's

01:45:55.739 --> 01:45:58.260
just going to be everywhere so anyone

01:45:58.260 --> 01:46:02.159
whose job it is to answer questions for

01:46:02.159 --> 01:46:04.139
you because they've read a lot of books

01:46:04.139 --> 01:46:07.860
it's not a that's not a

01:46:07.860 --> 01:46:10.800
so what you're going to have is so

01:46:10.800 --> 01:46:13.020
there's this great book called

01:46:13.020 --> 01:46:15.900
the ignorant School Master what is it

01:46:15.900 --> 01:46:16.920
called

01:46:16.920 --> 01:46:21.179
the ignorant School master

01:46:21.179 --> 01:46:24.020
it was written a long time ago

01:46:24.020 --> 01:46:26.699
uh I'm not gonna go looking for I can't

01:46:26.699 --> 01:46:30.119
remember you see oh that's the other

01:46:30.119 --> 01:46:33.139
last thing I want to talk about

01:46:34.980 --> 01:46:37.199
but it's a book called the ignorant

01:46:37.199 --> 01:46:38.460
Schoolmaster

01:46:38.460 --> 01:46:40.199
it is the story

01:46:40.199 --> 01:46:43.020
it's by Racine or something and it's a

01:46:43.020 --> 01:46:46.500
story of this guy who is a great teacher

01:46:46.500 --> 01:46:49.560
and he's a great disciplinarian and he

01:46:49.560 --> 01:46:51.900
retires but then he goes to another

01:46:51.900 --> 01:46:56.100
country but his students uh follow he's

01:46:56.100 --> 01:46:58.739
world renowned in the group of young

01:46:58.739 --> 01:47:01.020
people beg him to teach them but he

01:47:01.020 --> 01:47:02.880
doesn't know the language so

01:47:02.880 --> 01:47:05.340
he starts by giving them a translation

01:47:05.340 --> 01:47:07.500
of a book where it's their French on one

01:47:07.500 --> 01:47:09.179
side which is his language and their

01:47:09.179 --> 01:47:11.940
native language on the other side and

01:47:11.940 --> 01:47:15.060
they learn how they they teach

01:47:15.060 --> 01:47:17.280
themselves French they can speak to him

01:47:17.280 --> 01:47:20.159
and he's really surprised and anyways

01:47:20.159 --> 01:47:23.340
it's it's a great book and it's it's a

01:47:23.340 --> 01:47:26.600
satire but eventually the the the

01:47:26.600 --> 01:47:29.100
instructor wonders like how did they

01:47:29.100 --> 01:47:31.440
teach themselves that like I couldn't

01:47:31.440 --> 01:47:32.760
teach them because I don't know the

01:47:32.760 --> 01:47:35.460
other language and so then he gets a

01:47:35.460 --> 01:47:38.719
hypothesis that

01:47:39.119 --> 01:47:42.480
um that you don't need an explainer that

01:47:42.480 --> 01:47:44.760
human beings can learn and you don't

01:47:44.760 --> 01:47:46.800
need someone to explain them you just

01:47:46.800 --> 01:47:48.420
teach them to read why do you need a

01:47:48.420 --> 01:47:51.179
teacher to teach people what the

01:47:51.179 --> 01:47:53.400
book meant you just teach them to read

01:47:53.400 --> 01:47:56.159
and he starts to wonder like

01:47:56.159 --> 01:47:59.880
why do why do we have teachers and he

01:47:59.880 --> 01:48:02.340
has a theory that it's to make people

01:48:02.340 --> 01:48:04.440
feel that they can't learn so you have

01:48:04.440 --> 01:48:07.380
this economy which is based on have you

01:48:07.380 --> 01:48:10.619
read that book Alex which is based on

01:48:10.619 --> 01:48:12.540
convincing people they can't learn

01:48:12.540 --> 01:48:14.820
without someone to explain what they're

01:48:14.820 --> 01:48:16.860
learning and so he's like this is

01:48:16.860 --> 01:48:18.420
ridiculous right

01:48:18.420 --> 01:48:21.480
then a little later on he realizes like

01:48:21.480 --> 01:48:24.300
well if people can learn on their own

01:48:24.300 --> 01:48:27.060
why does the teacher even have to know

01:48:27.060 --> 01:48:29.699
what he's teaching like maybe we could

01:48:29.699 --> 01:48:32.159
teach kids stuff that we have no

01:48:32.159 --> 01:48:33.659
knowledge about

01:48:33.659 --> 01:48:35.940
and it goes on and on and on to say that

01:48:35.940 --> 01:48:38.520
the best teacher is an ignorant teacher

01:48:38.520 --> 01:48:41.820
because he's not skeptical of the

01:48:41.820 --> 01:48:44.400
child's ability to learn

01:48:44.400 --> 01:48:48.260
now why is this important because

01:48:48.260 --> 01:48:50.520
adults don't know what to teach their

01:48:50.520 --> 01:48:52.800
children anymore the rate of change is

01:48:52.800 --> 01:48:55.679
too fast but it's okay you don't have to

01:48:55.679 --> 01:48:58.020
know what they need to know you just

01:48:58.020 --> 01:49:02.219
have to know how to support learning

01:49:02.219 --> 01:49:06.480
so learning is a procedure it's not a

01:49:06.480 --> 01:49:08.219
stored instruction we don't know how we

01:49:08.219 --> 01:49:10.800
learn there are procedural conditions

01:49:10.800 --> 01:49:13.800
that are preferable to learning and so

01:49:13.800 --> 01:49:15.719
again we're back into procedural

01:49:15.719 --> 01:49:18.659
relationships with children

01:49:18.659 --> 01:49:21.300
um and so uh

01:49:21.300 --> 01:49:24.900
um this is also if you Google the Ted

01:49:24.900 --> 01:49:27.840
Talk by sugata Mitra he put a computer

01:49:27.840 --> 01:49:30.360
in a hole in the wall in rural India

01:49:30.360 --> 01:49:32.159
where the kids didn't even know how to

01:49:32.159 --> 01:49:34.619
speak you know the native language they

01:49:34.619 --> 01:49:37.139
spoke extreme dialects

01:49:37.139 --> 01:49:40.139
and they taught themselves biochemistry

01:49:40.139 --> 01:49:42.179
just but

01:49:42.179 --> 01:49:42.840
um

01:49:42.840 --> 01:49:46.679
and and so he noticed that he gave them

01:49:46.679 --> 01:49:49.619
a test and they've never been to school

01:49:49.619 --> 01:49:51.179
they've never seen a computer they

01:49:51.179 --> 01:49:53.219
didn't know English and he'd come back

01:49:53.219 --> 01:49:54.540
like three months and they're like we

01:49:54.540 --> 01:49:56.820
need a better processor and so I'd give

01:49:56.820 --> 01:49:59.340
them a better processor and the kids

01:49:59.340 --> 01:50:01.139
were different ages and they taught

01:50:01.139 --> 01:50:03.360
themselves and he went and he gave him a

01:50:03.360 --> 01:50:05.820
test and they got like a D minus in

01:50:05.820 --> 01:50:07.560
Biochemistry okay

01:50:07.560 --> 01:50:09.960
but he wanted to prove that they could

01:50:09.960 --> 01:50:12.719
get this they could be on par with his

01:50:12.719 --> 01:50:14.639
students in the city

01:50:14.639 --> 01:50:17.520
he wanted them to get like C pluses

01:50:17.520 --> 01:50:21.199
so he realized he had to add one person

01:50:21.199 --> 01:50:23.880
a mentor

01:50:23.880 --> 01:50:26.699
so he took this girl who actually been

01:50:26.699 --> 01:50:29.400
into into the city she lived in the

01:50:29.400 --> 01:50:30.900
village now

01:50:30.900 --> 01:50:31.860
um but she didn't know anything about

01:50:31.860 --> 01:50:33.900
computers she she did know learn

01:50:33.900 --> 01:50:35.940
accounting so she knew some math but she

01:50:35.940 --> 01:50:38.580
didn't know anything about biochemistry

01:50:38.580 --> 01:50:41.880
and he said I want you to go every day

01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:44.940
and ask them what they learned and see

01:50:44.940 --> 01:50:46.500
how they're doing and she said but I

01:50:46.500 --> 01:50:48.360
won't know if they're doing well he says

01:50:48.360 --> 01:50:51.179
doesn't matter just go good good every

01:50:51.179 --> 01:50:52.080
day

01:50:52.080 --> 01:50:57.119
and that enabled them to get uh pass the

01:50:57.119 --> 01:50:59.520
test at C plus so he started this thing

01:50:59.520 --> 01:51:02.639
called the school in the cloud which put

01:51:02.639 --> 01:51:04.619
computers in front of rural kids in

01:51:04.619 --> 01:51:07.500
India and Grand ladies grandmothers in

01:51:07.500 --> 01:51:09.900
UK together because the grandmothers

01:51:09.900 --> 01:51:11.460
just would say hi

01:51:11.460 --> 01:51:15.060
how'd you do today good good that's very

01:51:15.060 --> 01:51:16.139
good

01:51:16.139 --> 01:51:17.760
okay

01:51:17.760 --> 01:51:19.340
so

01:51:19.340 --> 01:51:22.139
this is the native intelligence of the

01:51:22.139 --> 01:51:24.300
human system this is what we're actually

01:51:24.300 --> 01:51:25.860
after

01:51:25.860 --> 01:51:29.040
is to reproduce the native intelligence

01:51:29.040 --> 01:51:31.679
of the human and we have no idea what's

01:51:31.679 --> 01:51:35.639
possible after that we have no idea

01:51:35.639 --> 01:51:38.520
um Okay so

01:51:38.520 --> 01:51:40.699
um

01:51:42.119 --> 01:51:43.980
and I just

01:51:43.980 --> 01:51:47.239
want to leave you with this one

01:51:47.239 --> 01:51:49.260
unanswered question

01:51:49.260 --> 01:51:50.880
[Music]

01:51:50.880 --> 01:51:54.960
and that is also how we just talked

01:51:54.960 --> 01:51:57.300
about how information and traditional

01:51:57.300 --> 01:51:59.940
education is being disrupted on a

01:51:59.940 --> 01:52:03.600
massive scale but also what will also be

01:52:03.600 --> 01:52:07.020
describe disrupted is our preoccupation

01:52:07.020 --> 01:52:09.540
with memory

01:52:09.540 --> 01:52:12.300
first because we won't be educated that

01:52:12.300 --> 01:52:14.940
way but also because something weird is

01:52:14.940 --> 01:52:17.699
happening with kids they take a hundred

01:52:17.699 --> 01:52:20.219
thousand pictures and put it on the on

01:52:20.219 --> 01:52:24.000
their phone and that Works in their body

01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:25.860
like they don't have to pay attention

01:52:25.860 --> 01:52:27.840
and not remember

01:52:27.840 --> 01:52:30.800
and so this this

01:52:30.800 --> 01:52:35.940
long drawn out period of trying to

01:52:35.940 --> 01:52:38.639
compound memory across which is

01:52:38.639 --> 01:52:40.619
inevitably

01:52:40.619 --> 01:52:43.380
in conflict with reality in the present

01:52:43.380 --> 01:52:46.440
moment is being completely disrupted by

01:52:46.440 --> 01:52:50.100
mechanisms invented

01:52:50.100 --> 01:52:53.179
to do memory better

01:52:53.820 --> 01:52:57.420
that's where I dropped my mind that

01:52:57.420 --> 01:52:59.580
reminds me of an Isaac Asimov science

01:52:59.580 --> 01:53:01.560
fiction story where sometime in the

01:53:01.560 --> 01:53:03.420
future since the machines do all the

01:53:03.420 --> 01:53:07.500
math some guy rediscovers arithmetic

01:53:07.500 --> 01:53:11.480
and nobody knew it and they kill him

01:53:14.159 --> 01:53:18.260
well there you go there's always

01:53:19.739 --> 01:53:21.780
okay my friends thank you very much see

01:53:21.780 --> 01:53:24.199
you soon

01:53:26.239 --> 01:53:28.860
and you don't have to try to remember

01:53:28.860 --> 01:53:31.440
any of this

01:53:31.440 --> 01:53:34.440
stuff