# Imagination & Syn(ae)sthesia 2023 cohorts transcripts

## Cohort 1

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and

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you know at the top of the uh pop-up

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school now if you get on the landing

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page it says it's not just somebody's

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newsletter it's your campus and it's

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starting to feel a little more like that

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um which is nice to see

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um so

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um today we are going to Pivot come from

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memory uh to imagination and synesthesia

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but I just want to bridge that by

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um

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asking you well we are going to do a

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um an exercise this morning it's it's

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it's quite detailed uh

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we'll see if we can pull it off with the

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amount of Mischief in the room here but

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um uh but I want to just kind of bridge

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for all of us

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um

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to talk about

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um what it feels like like how can you

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tell

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um if you're remembering something or if

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you're imagining it now so

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[Music]

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um

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um

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and maybe I'll I'll just run this by you

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know Matt's been they're not with us on

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Sundays but maybe we can just do a

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little exercise with Matt like if you if

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you're remembering

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the last time

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you were in your mother's kitchen

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you can feel how

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like I'm going like this I can feel

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it's processing like this could be

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different for different people

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but then if I imagine what it would be

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like to be on a mountain it's they're

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both using internal imagery

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but it feels different right so if I go

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imagine what it's like to be on a

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mountain ah this is a good exercise and

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then I imagine

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and remember when I was on that mountain

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I can notice a posture difference

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for one thing

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so if you imagine being at the beach

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that feels like something

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and then when's the last time I was

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when I remember being at the beach

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Can You Feel the postural difference

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let's let's see if some people can

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describe it a little bit now here's the

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thing people will describe it in

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different ways but let's just

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uh get in touch with

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this muscle that knows

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that it's a different posture I just use

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that that term as a posture so what are

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some of the things you're noticing

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I um

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imagining being at the beach was

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spacious and

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I had a curiosity a wonder about that

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whereas the last time I was at the beach

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I I could feel walking on the hard sand

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waiting for the sun set colors like it

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was very specific and very much in my in

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my upper torso I could feel that

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experience so it wasn't the Curiosity it

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was the

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um the um

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ingrained sense

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from Easy imagining being on the beach

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is

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um an activation of uh sensory

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experience sensory motor I guess and

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just uh so there's there's an up there's

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a there's a um

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attuning into for me

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all of what that might feel smell be

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like in the body and then from and that

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seems to to move up into picture but the

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picture almost isn't necessary because

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I'm already in the experience of it

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whereas in the remembering I'm in my

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head and it's sort of a top-down

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um trying to find a place and where was

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that and it's more of a cognitive

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reconstructuring so it feels like more

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of a Down

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movement

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okay so this is very important already

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um so the idea is that we just we can

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distinguish where it lives in its in our

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bodies but if you notice it's almost a

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reverse

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for David and Phoebe now part of this is

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because of the way they process and part

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of it is just the way the word

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imagination and memory triggers the

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postures right so we're not quite sure

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if it's the same feeling but the words

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you know but

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um this is something to

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um to notice because this is something I

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had to learn

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um through hard work many years ago in

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the in the uh we space practice

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experiments I did much of the confusion

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when you're getting at the subtle level

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is that we assume

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people's interior experiences are very

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close to ours and this turns out not to

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be true and it's for it's not a male and

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female it's just that

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we are we are inner experience is is

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substantially private to us and as we

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grow up and we use words or language or

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moments

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they they get

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you know the action potentials in us

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that process through different parts of

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our bodies process in certain ways are

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extremely varied

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um and

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um

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yeah so so this was something to

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that's import important to notice

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um

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yeah

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any other I want to ask that that I

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notice that I'm right

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that you want you notice

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that I'm right my perception

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is right yeah

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yeah I think I noticed like

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with the imagination I think I noticed

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my head actually tilting upwards and

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then when it memory my head would go

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down and for me I think yeah when the

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memory was more in my heart

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and like it felt like that and then the

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head was like

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yeah something like that

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I noticed that when I remembered I

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immediately started making long

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associations externally about how I got

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onto the mountain

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um or various ways that I have gotten

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onto mountains and when I imagined it it

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was much more a feeling of presence like

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from my body outward feeling the

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experience of being on a mountain so

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I would say that my imagination was more

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visceral

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than my remembering

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can you hear me

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shared speaker

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uh yeah for me a bit similar

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with imagination like I smell the the

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beach

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um I didn't I didn't see it because to

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see it like I have to remember it

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um

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or an amount and you know I could feel I

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felt when

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uh and and and

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yeah I felt Rocks Under My Feet

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um

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but when I remember you know when I

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remembered enough I could I could

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literally see it but I couldn't an

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imagination it was it started somewhere

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different

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I seem to remember a whole bunch of

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things

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I mean there's like all my times at the

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beach are all kind of I just kept on

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popping through all kinds of different

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memories of being at the beach and the

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feeling and the senses

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so it was interesting

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or the mountains the mountains do feel

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more spacious because you're stuck up

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there and out there there's all that

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space But the same time at the ocean

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there's all that space out there but on

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this little grain of sand on that little

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beach so

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it's interesting thank you for sharing

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these things

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and one of the things that I'm not sure

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if I put it in the post

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or if it's coming up in the next post

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but

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[Music]

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um

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one of the things that's that's

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uh very powerful about imagination we're

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not going to work with it today maybe

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maybe later on in the series here

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um

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is to work with counter factuals so for

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example

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um

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we could

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say that

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um

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darwinian evolution is true that species

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adopt due to Adaptive pressures or

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something

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and then we could say something like

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well what if

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um

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what does evolution happens more like

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white had said through complex potential

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States okay

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and first what we would do is we would

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look for whether it's theoretically

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impossible and we say no it's not

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theoretically impossible so then what we

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can do is derive a theory

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that

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we can imagine a theory that covers all

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the facts that the darwinians use but

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it's imagined into a new story so this

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is called abduction when you imagine a

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counter factual and

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um and then you find evidence that

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um that supports that counter factual so

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imagination is really powerful

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pragmatically in in this way so um this

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is what uh

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um

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in the book design and bound they talk

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about pragmatic imagination and it works

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this way to

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um so you could say what if I imagine a

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school being us on a sub stack

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um there's nothing theoretically

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impossible for that to happen and so and

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then you can compose what would make the

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counter factual true

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so

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understanding

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how to get out of memory it's like I

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can't remember a school on a sub step

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platform none of them existed but I can

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imagine

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a school on a sub step and as long as

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I'm not working with you know I can

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imagine things that are theoretically

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impossible so that those are probably

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not too practical

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um but a big way how scientific

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revolutions work is to uh work with

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counter factually

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are there any other distinctions we want

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to share before we move on to the

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exercises breakout ones

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it just seems like it's a part of that

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synesthesia I'm probably not seen it

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right with all the senses mixing and

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merging

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I really like that and and tying in the

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imagination

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um

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and being in the present

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while doing that to build that

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hypothetical that we might want to be

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moving towards

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yeah so this is what we're going to work

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on today we're going to do a

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how we have four in that one room two

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over there so we have two over there we

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have a lot of people in the same room so

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I've got one two three four five and we

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got six seven

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[Music]

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um

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seven so so

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um I'll send

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there'll be uh two breakout rooms with

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two and two break and one breakout room

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with three

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I'd like to split we'd like to split

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just to because you got to be on two

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different computers though

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okay all right but yeah I'm really sorry

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I'm being called I have to cut out so

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so not to factor me okay I'll make it on

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Tuesday I'm sorry

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okay fine okay so you guys are in two

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computers we can do that okay so yeah

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Grace going to his computer so uh you

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can you can send him with somebody else

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right so if you're on if you're on

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you're on screen I will put you in a

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breakout room and if you're sitting

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together where I can see you you'll be

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together all right awesome all right so

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this is I had this all prepared on a on

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a presentation board but then I brought

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my other computer and I don't have

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access to it so let me try to explain

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what we're going to do we're going to

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work in pairs

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and

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um and for 15 minutes

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let me get this ready

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and there's Ray okay

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all right we are going to

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we're going to work in pairs

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and

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um each turn will be 15 minutes

00:15:42.839 --> 00:15:46.500
and there will be there's two rows so

00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.839
one role is the person that asks the

00:15:48.839 --> 00:15:49.920
question

00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:52.800
and one role is the person who answers

00:15:52.800 --> 00:15:54.480
the questions okay

00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.600
now and so I'm gonna put you in a

00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.899
breakout room for 45 minutes you're

00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:02.519
going to

00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.060
do one round with one one person asking

00:16:06.060 --> 00:16:08.220
the question for 15 minutes you're gonna

00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:09.779
do another round

00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:12.360
with the switching for 15 minutes and

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.980
then you're going to debrief for 15

00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:17.160
minutes to get at this notion that it's

00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:18.660
really different for different people

00:16:18.660 --> 00:16:21.360
and what you're going to bring back is

00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:25.680
that debrief piece not necessarily your

00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:27.300
experience I mean you can but this is

00:16:27.300 --> 00:16:29.279
what we're trying to get so it'll be 45

00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.079
minutes

00:16:31.079 --> 00:16:35.399
now the person asking the question is

00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:39.300
going to practice empathic projection

00:16:39.300 --> 00:16:41.940
what do I mean by that you're going to

00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.940
ask the first person you want to be very

00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:48.240
clean with your language here

00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.000
so the first question

00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.259
and and the first question will be

00:16:55.259 --> 00:17:01.620
what is it like to be you right now

00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:03.480
okay

00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.579
you're gonna say what is it like to be

00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:07.620
you right now and you know what you want

00:17:07.620 --> 00:17:08.839
to do

00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:12.720
is really trying to have this session so

00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:14.939
you can feel like what it's like to be

00:17:14.939 --> 00:17:17.040
this person

00:17:17.040 --> 00:17:19.140
so you can do this with animals too it's

00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:21.480
called empathic projection you have to

00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.819
use your imagination but also your

00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:25.919
senses to like

00:17:25.919 --> 00:17:29.460
what is it like to be you right now

00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:31.799
right so that's the first question you

00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.380
ask and really try to lean into that

00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:36.620
question

00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:40.860
now I'm going to give you an actual

00:17:40.860 --> 00:17:44.000
example of one of these sessions

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.280
that my students did to give you an idea

00:17:47.280 --> 00:17:49.260
of where it could go

00:17:49.260 --> 00:17:50.640
so

00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.760
if they start with an adjective someone

00:17:53.760 --> 00:17:56.280
says I'm anxious

00:17:56.280 --> 00:17:58.980
you have to notice what they start with

00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:02.160
if they start with an adjective or a

00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:03.480
noun

00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.059
or sometimes they start with a gesture

00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:07.919
or an action okay

00:18:07.919 --> 00:18:10.799
because you're going to ask questions a

00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.140
little differently depending upon what

00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:15.660
they come back with

00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:18.000
so it's quite often people start with an

00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.580
adjective I'm anxious

00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:22.620
and then you say

00:18:22.620 --> 00:18:26.360
anxious like what

00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.080
okay and this is a transcript from

00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:34.820
someone and she said

00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:37.440
like a lizard

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.140
it just came out of her but she felt

00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:42.660
into it so that's a noun and then you

00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:45.660
say what is it like

00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:48.480
to be this lizard you see that you see

00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.360
how if it's a noun you want to enter in

00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.820
empathic projection with the animal or

00:18:53.820 --> 00:18:57.539
with the the thing you see that move

00:18:57.539 --> 00:18:59.220
okay

00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:03.080
and in this case then she went

00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:06.840
because she didn't have words for it so

00:19:06.840 --> 00:19:09.179
then if there's a gesture or an action

00:19:09.179 --> 00:19:11.940
and you're really watching when this

00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:13.919
happened what

00:19:13.919 --> 00:19:16.559
notice what really interests you so you

00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.140
then you say that tongue

00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:23.780
what is it like to be that tongue

00:19:25.020 --> 00:19:28.220
and then she said

00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:34.500
soft and Restless at the same time so

00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:36.960
now you have a paradox

00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.419
and so when there's a paradox you have

00:19:39.419 --> 00:19:41.220
two adjectives you have to say okay

00:19:41.220 --> 00:19:44.100
let's work with soft first now you're

00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:46.200
back into

00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:50.400
uh adjective so then you say soft like

00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.760
what

00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:55.799
and then you go through that and then

00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:58.260
can we go back to Restless Restless is

00:19:58.260 --> 00:20:00.179
an adjective so you say Restless like

00:20:00.179 --> 00:20:04.320
what okay does everybody understand

00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:05.880
this

00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.900
are there any questions

00:20:14.100 --> 00:20:16.260
yeah Liz

00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:18.179
you said they might start with a gesture

00:20:18.179 --> 00:20:21.480
do you have a yeah start with a gesture

00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.160
then

00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:26.280
them you know it might surprise you like

00:20:26.280 --> 00:20:28.500
maybe they roll their eyes and so then

00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:31.679
you can say those eyes

00:20:31.679 --> 00:20:34.440
what is it like to be those eyes

00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:36.480
if it's a gesture you want to pick out a

00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.660
noun

00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:42.120
and then it could go from noun to noun

00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:44.280
to noun or it could move around again

00:20:44.280 --> 00:20:46.799
whatever it's or they might roll their

00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:48.780
eyes but go like this and you might say

00:20:48.780 --> 00:20:52.500
that chin hmm it might be what is it

00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.440
like to be that chin

00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.980
or beard or something

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:00.660
um you know at first they'll gesture to

00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:03.179
get give them some time to get a word if

00:21:03.179 --> 00:21:05.039
they get a word then go with the word

00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.919
but sometimes they get stuck and and the

00:21:07.919 --> 00:21:10.500
gesture is quite profound

00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:11.760
um

00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:13.200
okay

00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.280
yes David

00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:19.620
um is there

00:21:19.620 --> 00:21:21.179
um

00:21:21.179 --> 00:21:24.000
a recommendation you have to move

00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.880
quickly or move slowly with your

00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.880
questioning and answering

00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:34.200
is a flow better or is it a grounding

00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:38.340
into the noun that happened 30 seconds

00:21:38.340 --> 00:21:40.260
ago yeah

00:21:40.260 --> 00:21:43.260
better like if someone says like a

00:21:43.260 --> 00:21:45.120
lizard don't you say what's it like to

00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:46.760
be a lizard

00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:49.799
the questioner is trying to enter into

00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.380
empathic projection so before you say

00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:55.980
you have to say now try to become a

00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:59.400
lizard and then you say this this lizard

00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.400
what is it like to be this lizard so the

00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:05.659
the the ever at every time

00:22:05.659 --> 00:22:08.580
the questioner is working with trying to

00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:11.280
lean in empathically with what has been

00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:13.260
given to you might even

00:22:13.260 --> 00:22:15.900
yourself to and then think oh that

00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:17.520
tongue you know what I'm saying so

00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:19.559
you're trying to use a lot of

00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:23.460
slow leaning into whatever is is it

00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:24.960
requires a little more effort because

00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.640
the person that's answering the question

00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.760
they're waiting for some felt sense to

00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:31.620
come up and you're trying to bypass

00:22:31.620 --> 00:22:34.320
yours and enter into what's being

00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:35.940
offered for you

00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:39.260
that was a great question

00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:41.760
okay so

00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:43.260
um

00:22:43.260 --> 00:22:45.299
let me see if I can do these breakout

00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:46.190
groups

00:22:46.190 --> 00:22:49.420
[Music]

00:22:54.419 --> 00:22:59.120
so sign automatically when

00:23:04.679 --> 00:23:08.120
assign manually

00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:14.299
so the one I'm going to put

00:23:14.610 --> 00:23:15.240
[Music]

00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:17.240
um

00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:25.460
um

00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:45.380
all right and let's see

00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:47.760
[Music]

00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:49.760
um

00:23:54.320 --> 00:23:56.220
options

00:23:56.220 --> 00:24:00.299
45 minutes okay so 15 minutes

00:24:00.299 --> 00:24:02.880
per couple

00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.799
and then

00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.559
get an idea of what was that experience

00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.799
for people and bring that as a share

00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:12.720
enjoy your company and enjoy your

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.320
conversation

00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:18.919
thank you

00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:03.900
foreign

00:26:00.419 --> 00:26:03.020
foreign

00:27:02.159 --> 00:27:04.700
foreign

00:27:46.679 --> 00:27:49.039
hey

00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:52.520
good to see you man

00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:57.600
wow what's this recording studio over

00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:00.380
there looks like my room

00:28:00.380 --> 00:28:03.299
Katie Katie's here I'm at Ray and

00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:05.400
Marie's and Katie's here and we're going

00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:06.860
to shoot some

00:28:06.860 --> 00:28:10.860
storytelling fantastic

00:28:10.860 --> 00:28:13.919
I mean I've this is my new little 10 by

00:28:13.919 --> 00:28:17.880
10 Studio animation thing and uh

00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:20.700
I've set it up yesterday so that my zoom

00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:22.140
camera was over there looking this way

00:28:22.140 --> 00:28:25.620
my video camera was here looking down at

00:28:25.620 --> 00:28:28.279
my big screen TV that had the zoom

00:28:28.279 --> 00:28:31.200
projection on it and it was focused in

00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:35.220
all the way and zoom has a lag so I was

00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:37.559
looking at the screen so as my profile

00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:39.600
and every time I moved my hand was a

00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:41.460
little bit behind my movement and it

00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:43.440
just did this psychedelic thing to me it

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.200
was just so bizarre and I couldn't get

00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.880
my directions straight if I'd go this

00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.799
way on the screen it would go that way I

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:54.440
was like what the hell it was really fun

00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:57.380
hey Sandra

00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:59.700
we're still waiting since the people oh

00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:02.100
here we go we have a

00:29:02.100 --> 00:29:05.340
film school over there

00:29:05.340 --> 00:29:08.299
hey Katie

00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:16.700
nice

00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:19.940
everyone's doing it

00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.159
how many people are here today

00:29:26.159 --> 00:29:29.460
uh I don't know there's there's a bunch

00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:31.919
of us right here in this one house and

00:29:31.919 --> 00:29:33.200
then

00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.779
so there's not a lot of screens

00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:38.760
um where's where's the house at

00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:41.100
Ray and Maurice

00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:43.740
but where's that it's right down from

00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:46.039
stores University

00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.299
stores Connecticut

00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:49.860
cool

00:29:49.860 --> 00:29:51.179
Neighbors

00:29:51.179 --> 00:29:53.220
the other people will be coming soon oh

00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:56.240
you guys are freaking me out

00:29:59.100 --> 00:30:01.559
look at you all I'm downstairs I'm not

00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:05.000
near that one was too scared

00:30:06.659 --> 00:30:09.600
okay how did we do Thomas is here I came

00:30:09.600 --> 00:30:12.480
at the top of the hour so

00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.620
um yeah let's share

00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:30.899
um I was paired with Susan

00:30:30.899 --> 00:30:33.179
and

00:30:33.179 --> 00:30:34.799
we had a really

00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.700
we had a really cool

00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:39.059
time

00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:41.179
um

00:30:42.360 --> 00:30:44.880
both of us came in like we discovered

00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.640
later with a pretty similar

00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:50.159
energy of feeling like a little uneasy a

00:30:50.159 --> 00:30:52.200
little uncomfortable

00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.760
um I was the first person to ask

00:30:53.760 --> 00:30:56.159
questions and Susan was answering first

00:30:56.159 --> 00:30:59.419
and um

00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:03.899
there's a really cool Arc from

00:31:03.899 --> 00:31:07.320
like discomfort and unease with like

00:31:07.320 --> 00:31:08.580
just opening and opening with someone

00:31:08.580 --> 00:31:12.140
new and like

00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:14.340
she expressed not being able to like

00:31:14.340 --> 00:31:16.380
listen first

00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.240
um

00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.140
but then

00:31:22.679 --> 00:31:25.440
actually just my she noticed my setting

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:27.899
like my garden roses and cactuses and

00:31:27.899 --> 00:31:29.340
like this became a point of connection

00:31:29.340 --> 00:31:31.260
and

00:31:31.260 --> 00:31:33.899
and ease

00:31:33.899 --> 00:31:35.820
um

00:31:35.820 --> 00:31:38.960
and then um

00:31:39.899 --> 00:31:42.600
yeah from there like when it was my turn

00:31:42.600 --> 00:31:44.340
to be like in the

00:31:44.340 --> 00:31:46.620
like the answering and and sharing side

00:31:46.620 --> 00:31:48.960
like I also came in a little bit uneasy

00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.460
I said I felt like I was like writing

00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.799
like happiness and comfort and feeling

00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:54.299
good because

00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:56.340
um in the first half like

00:31:56.340 --> 00:31:57.960
it's like I was doing something unknown

00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:59.520
but it was going well but I felt like I

00:31:59.520 --> 00:32:02.399
was writing this very narrow balancing

00:32:02.399 --> 00:32:04.799
on a very narrow Edge

00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.179
um

00:32:06.179 --> 00:32:07.980
but

00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:10.200
then that was widening over time and

00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.960
like another thing that

00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:15.360
helped it widen it's like um at one

00:32:15.360 --> 00:32:17.039
point we both shared a feeling of like

00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:18.960
loveliness

00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:19.679
um

00:32:19.679 --> 00:32:22.320
and then it was like the setting of

00:32:22.320 --> 00:32:23.880
loveliness with the garden also the

00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:25.799
paintings behind her like came back into

00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:28.320
the exercise and that just like expanded

00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:30.539
things and opened things up more

00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:32.700
um it was really

00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:34.200
yeah it was beautiful there's a lot of

00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:35.760
there's a lot of connection and kind of

00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:38.940
like parallels in our

00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.980
in our arcs and like I really

00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:42.600
appreciated how much

00:32:42.600 --> 00:32:43.940
um

00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:46.679
like the space which I wouldn't normally

00:32:46.679 --> 00:32:48.899
think of as part of the exercise like

00:32:48.899 --> 00:32:51.659
came in and like was really like

00:32:51.659 --> 00:32:54.960
integral to how everything unfolded

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.460
um Susan do you want to share do you

00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:58.940
want to add anything

00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:03.899
yeah thank you and thank you for your

00:33:03.899 --> 00:33:06.059
time it was much excellent

00:33:06.059 --> 00:33:07.080
um

00:33:07.080 --> 00:33:11.039
I was just surprised actually

00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:11.880
um

00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:13.260
because

00:33:13.260 --> 00:33:14.460
it's

00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:17.519
to slip into someone else's space as it

00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:18.559
were

00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:22.200
and this was a surprising thing is that

00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:26.279
it was very very similar like that's

00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:28.019
what really

00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:31.080
um I found I mean normally you can slip

00:33:31.080 --> 00:33:34.380
into someone's spaces it were and it's

00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:35.880
fine like they're quite in a different

00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.500
space than you and what they're saying

00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:39.600
and and how they're feeling and the

00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:42.720
energy and all of that but this was very

00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:45.059
very similar and that's what

00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:48.960
yeah I just it's really really it was

00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:51.720
like it's like the energies were so

00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:54.240
there was so much synchronicity and the

00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:56.279
energies were just

00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.440
between us and

00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.120
I don't know it's just the garden and

00:34:00.120 --> 00:34:01.860
then when you mentioned the two he was

00:34:01.860 --> 00:34:04.140
coming and going and then the garden was

00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:07.140
coming and going between us it was yeah

00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:09.839
that's what surprised me probably the

00:34:09.839 --> 00:34:12.000
most of them but it was fun

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.580
and once we got into the fun and that

00:34:14.580 --> 00:34:17.700
was that was cool yeah

00:34:17.700 --> 00:34:19.500
does that is there anything else you

00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:21.859
want to add

00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:24.480
um

00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:26.220
I really liked the exploration of

00:34:26.220 --> 00:34:29.220
gesture but that we both did I felt like

00:34:29.220 --> 00:34:31.080
that

00:34:31.080 --> 00:34:33.300
it was really Illuminating

00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:35.700
um like a question he kept coming back

00:34:35.700 --> 00:34:37.320
to like sometimes I would like lean back

00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:39.599
and then look around

00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:41.940
um like discovering what that was about

00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:43.440
was really powerful and there was a

00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.760
gesture that you kept making with your

00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:46.080
hands

00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:48.080
um

00:34:48.419 --> 00:34:51.080
I was

00:34:52.020 --> 00:34:54.619
I was surprised by how much like more

00:34:54.619 --> 00:34:58.380
meaning there was to be found

00:34:58.380 --> 00:35:01.440
there like when I actually

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.260
took some time to like focus on that and

00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:06.060
even like reenact it and like see what

00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:07.680
that was doing

00:35:07.680 --> 00:35:11.099
that's cool yeah it was it was great it

00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:13.740
was a beautiful noticing because what

00:35:13.740 --> 00:35:16.260
we're saying is you've noticed that and

00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:18.240
then when you say I don't know how you

00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:20.400
said it but that hand what is that hand

00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:21.359
doing

00:35:21.359 --> 00:35:23.579
what happens in your body is you're kind

00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:25.680
of doing this with your hand and it

00:35:25.680 --> 00:35:29.220
starts to build empathic projection

00:35:29.220 --> 00:35:33.720
um and yeah yeah and when people are

00:35:33.720 --> 00:35:36.000
really searching to be honest a lot of

00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.520
times all they have is a gesture

00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:41.280
and so when you notice the gesture and

00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.859
your mirror neurons are like

00:35:43.859 --> 00:35:47.160
during that gesture then

00:35:47.160 --> 00:35:51.300
you build inside your your melding the

00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.240
empathic experience through your your

00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:56.099
awareness yeah

00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:57.960
yeah

00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.619
awesome

00:36:27.540 --> 00:36:29.880
we had a pretty cool one

00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:32.839
um me and Holly

00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.000
um

00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:41.960
this is just speaking for me but like

00:36:42.359 --> 00:36:44.099
um it almost felt like I had to get in

00:36:44.099 --> 00:36:47.400
the zone it took a while to kind of get

00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.500
into a Zone

00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:52.859
um at first I was like

00:36:52.859 --> 00:36:55.079
trying to imagine what she was saying

00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.780
and I had like my eyes open and I would

00:36:57.780 --> 00:36:59.940
kind of explore different

00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:02.579
like close my eyes then you know

00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:06.060
and then at one point I just kind of

00:37:06.060 --> 00:37:08.040
went like this and closed my eyes and

00:37:08.040 --> 00:37:09.900
just listened to what she and she would

00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:12.960
just talk and then that was kind of I

00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.240
felt really healthy I felt like I could

00:37:15.240 --> 00:37:18.240
just flow with her then

00:37:18.240 --> 00:37:20.300
um

00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:25.339
and I think yeah also like

00:37:26.700 --> 00:37:29.579
the distinction between like I felt like

00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.500
sometimes we got into weeds or I'm not

00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:34.260
or had the potential to

00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:37.260
when

00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:40.440
this sort of like the metaphors we would

00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:41.400
say

00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:43.560
like you could say it in a more

00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:46.440
metaphorical imagistic way or in a very

00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:49.920
like a sensorial like crisp or hot or

00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:53.400
quote like and I felt like

00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:57.480
it was very possible to kind of get lost

00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:01.020
in the more imagistic thing whether

00:38:01.020 --> 00:38:03.359
that's you know

00:38:03.359 --> 00:38:05.880
or each person has their own meaning

00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:09.180
making so like an apple would feel look

00:38:09.180 --> 00:38:12.060
you know different than you know to each

00:38:12.060 --> 00:38:14.839
person but

00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.980
and yeah sometimes I also felt like

00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.740
also confused sometimes too when like

00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.680
I wasn't sure if it was my my own

00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:30.660
feeling or was it the question like

00:38:30.660 --> 00:38:32.820
because sometimes you say like oh what

00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:34.079
does that feel like and then I was like

00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.720
oh wait am I actually feeling that or

00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:39.060
was it do I not feel it because she she

00:38:39.060 --> 00:38:42.660
pointed that out so it was it was I

00:38:42.660 --> 00:38:45.060
don't know yeah it was yeah interesting

00:38:45.060 --> 00:38:47.780
it was really cool

00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:50.780
Holly

00:38:52.560 --> 00:38:56.099
yeah I felt like making art you know in

00:38:56.099 --> 00:38:57.480
um

00:38:57.480 --> 00:38:59.760
similar to what Katie and Susan and

00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.500
everyone's been sharing about

00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:02.040
um

00:39:02.040 --> 00:39:05.460
initially you know am I doing this right

00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:09.420
like really prefrontal cortex like very

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:11.599
um

00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:14.880
yeah a lot of thinking there

00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:16.200
and then

00:39:16.200 --> 00:39:18.720
um just kind of letting loose and like

00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:20.640
going with

00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:23.760
like dancing together noticing noticing

00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:24.960
how we were

00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.960
like moving our bodies in

00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:29.940
um the body movement sometimes was

00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:31.619
important felt like it was informing the

00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:33.359
images and the images sometimes felt

00:39:33.359 --> 00:39:35.820
like they were informing the dance and

00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:39.240
so going into that like joining him

00:39:39.240 --> 00:39:41.640
in that space and then yeah being really

00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:43.260
conscious about

00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:45.180
okay I'm with him here there's a

00:39:45.180 --> 00:39:46.380
marionette

00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:48.599
I'm curious about this like is there a

00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.240
puppeteer up but realizing like that was

00:39:51.240 --> 00:39:55.800
again me that was my experience and and

00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.420
um so there was a a big dance between

00:39:59.420 --> 00:40:03.240
tending to Matt and his experience and

00:40:03.240 --> 00:40:05.339
then tending to my experience

00:40:05.339 --> 00:40:08.040
intending to because there was so much

00:40:08.040 --> 00:40:09.540
there you could you could you could

00:40:09.540 --> 00:40:11.640
point out so many different things so

00:40:11.640 --> 00:40:14.040
then I had to really tend to my own body

00:40:14.040 --> 00:40:16.200
and notice which words and which

00:40:16.200 --> 00:40:18.000
gestures or images

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.700
were creating a resonance and then

00:40:20.700 --> 00:40:22.500
trusting into that and going in with

00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:25.099
that resonance

00:40:25.140 --> 00:40:27.839
um and the other thing I I you know when

00:40:27.839 --> 00:40:30.420
you at the very beginning of the session

00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:33.960
Bonnie about the memory in the maginal

00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:36.839
I mean for me they feel so married to

00:40:36.839 --> 00:40:38.339
each other like

00:40:38.339 --> 00:40:41.280
when I go into deep imaginal places

00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:44.099
start I start from the silence I start

00:40:44.099 --> 00:40:47.400
from a place of relaxation of Silence

00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:49.800
and then things move and come up and

00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:51.300
then I become them

00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:54.420
but that becoming feels like a move

00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:57.000
towards something deeply remembered

00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.920
like how do I know how do I know what

00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:00.540
it's like to be an ocean how do I know

00:41:00.540 --> 00:41:02.640
what it's like to be these pulsations or

00:41:02.640 --> 00:41:04.020
this light

00:41:04.020 --> 00:41:06.300
and it's like hearkening something that

00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:10.200
I know deep cellularly in my bones

00:41:10.200 --> 00:41:12.359
um and so they feel like they go

00:41:12.359 --> 00:41:15.859
together I mean

00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:23.280
I think that that

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.180
and useful term for that experience so

00:41:27.180 --> 00:41:29.640
so there's this toggle where you can

00:41:29.640 --> 00:41:31.619
tell you're remembering and then you can

00:41:31.619 --> 00:41:33.300
tell you're imagining and then there's

00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:35.400
this other experience

00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.400
where

00:41:41.339 --> 00:41:45.119
the invitation for the experience feels

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.460
more like imagination but the experience

00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:49.320
itself feels more like a deep

00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:51.839
remembering that's what we would call

00:41:51.839 --> 00:41:54.619
the imaginal

00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:58.740
you see the difference

00:41:58.740 --> 00:42:03.660
right so so it has this bivalent quality

00:42:03.660 --> 00:42:05.940
of

00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:08.060
um

00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:11.040
initiating it through an imaginative

00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:13.820
stance

00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:16.500
but

00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:18.839
it lives in your body as a deep

00:42:18.839 --> 00:42:21.839
remembrance so I would say that that's

00:42:21.839 --> 00:42:23.579
on the third

00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:25.619
when people ask me what's the imaginal

00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:28.800
that's the experience of the imaginal

00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:32.940
versus the the two the two bookends

00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:37.140
which are memory clear imagination clear

00:42:37.140 --> 00:42:38.700
and when they live like you're

00:42:38.700 --> 00:42:40.440
describing it that's what I would call

00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:43.220
the imaginal

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.160
now we don't have any Neuroscience about

00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:53.160
that like like but

00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:56.060
um seems to me

00:42:56.640 --> 00:43:00.480
if you do these these if you if we do

00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.579
you do what we're doing which is tying

00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:06.180
common words to specific bodied

00:43:06.180 --> 00:43:07.920
experiences it seems to me there's

00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.520
something like that going on like

00:43:10.520 --> 00:43:13.740
uh there's something about the calling

00:43:13.740 --> 00:43:15.480
forth of the experience that seems like

00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.640
imaginal and not like you're remembering

00:43:17.640 --> 00:43:22.140
something but what is called forth then

00:43:22.140 --> 00:43:26.040
because you uh

00:43:26.040 --> 00:43:28.619
are not adding content it's just coming

00:43:28.619 --> 00:43:30.540
forth then it seems more like a

00:43:30.540 --> 00:43:33.000
remembering so I would call that is what

00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.700
people are trying to get at when they

00:43:35.700 --> 00:43:37.619
call the imaginal and that's actually a

00:43:37.619 --> 00:43:40.200
question Thomas had a couple months ago

00:43:40.200 --> 00:43:43.800
yeah I'm I'm feeling my heart racing a

00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:44.940
bit

00:43:44.940 --> 00:43:47.579
um a sense of

00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:49.800
because

00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:51.900
I think in that imaginal place that's

00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:54.180
where we can get in trouble that

00:43:54.180 --> 00:43:56.700
remembering because it if we attach it

00:43:56.700 --> 00:44:01.079
to ourselves then that creates either a

00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:03.480
paranoia that there's these beings that

00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:07.400
are moving through or it creates uh

00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:11.220
I'm I'm I'm God or whatever the you know

00:44:11.220 --> 00:44:13.680
on Jesus sort of place

00:44:13.680 --> 00:44:16.319
um to to really have the humility that

00:44:16.319 --> 00:44:19.460
we're kind of vehicles you know however

00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:23.839
like I feel like I'm a you know

00:44:23.839 --> 00:44:27.480
1984 Honda Civic you know it's just like

00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.700
how can I how can I let this through me

00:44:29.700 --> 00:44:32.040
without attaching to it

00:44:32.040 --> 00:44:35.160
um that's that's a deep practice thank

00:44:35.160 --> 00:44:37.920
you for bringing that forth Bonnie

00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:43.500
so so I mean the most neutral stance is

00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:44.370
in it as

00:44:44.370 --> 00:44:46.740
[Music]

00:44:46.740 --> 00:44:50.940
any that we don't know what it is okay

00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:54.359
um and so for some people this is I I

00:44:54.359 --> 00:44:56.640
used to write about this a long time ago

00:44:56.640 --> 00:44:58.500
I wrote about it as the ontological

00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:00.839
dimensioning of reality

00:45:00.839 --> 00:45:04.440
so there are there are people who when

00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:06.359
they learn math

00:45:06.359 --> 00:45:07.920
some people think math is like

00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:11.280
imagination it's it's an interesting but

00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.260
there are some people that think oh my

00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:16.740
God I'm remembering numbers they were

00:45:16.740 --> 00:45:19.079
given at the start of the universe and

00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:22.560
so there's a lot a lot of art is like

00:45:22.560 --> 00:45:25.319
this when something you create something

00:45:25.319 --> 00:45:28.319
a poem or something in one sense from

00:45:28.319 --> 00:45:29.880
one perspective you know it's an

00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:33.720
imaginative thing but you feel like

00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:35.460
it's something

00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:38.040
prior to the universe that is being

00:45:38.040 --> 00:45:41.760
spoken or something and and and for

00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:43.079
different people like a lot of people

00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:44.940
they think numbers are like that math

00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.579
Roger Penrose thinks math is prior to

00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:49.680
the existence you know that it's deep

00:45:49.680 --> 00:45:53.520
and this is this is where the creative

00:45:53.520 --> 00:45:56.940
or imaginative uh starts to blend into

00:45:56.940 --> 00:46:00.060
these experience of memory deep memory

00:46:00.060 --> 00:46:02.220
and that's what I would call the

00:46:02.220 --> 00:46:04.319
imaginal

00:46:04.319 --> 00:46:07.200
um yeah so it's easier to see the two

00:46:07.200 --> 00:46:10.980
bookends but then this this is a kind of

00:46:10.980 --> 00:46:14.819
a third uh experience that is

00:46:14.819 --> 00:46:18.660
obviously much more spiritual than uh

00:46:18.660 --> 00:46:20.640
than we would think of the other two

00:46:20.640 --> 00:46:23.040
bookends but that's and the word the

00:46:23.040 --> 00:46:25.680
word hearkening in there seems

00:46:25.680 --> 00:46:30.119
right as well yeah yeah we're going to

00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:32.160
in the later part of the course we're

00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:33.660
going to talk about the moral animal

00:46:33.660 --> 00:46:35.520
we're going to use

00:46:35.520 --> 00:46:36.480
um

00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.599
lacoff and Johnson's notion of moral

00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.300
imagination so we'll return to the

00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:44.280
imagination of something

00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:47.520
that actually has this moral and ethical

00:46:47.520 --> 00:46:49.740
component and in that you're in more

00:46:49.740 --> 00:46:53.339
into the the liminal so

00:46:53.339 --> 00:46:54.660
um

00:46:54.660 --> 00:46:58.400
yeah very good noticing

00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.020
this

00:47:03.839 --> 00:47:06.960
so I uh would like to

00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:08.940
um

00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:11.520
say my experience was that not only was

00:47:11.520 --> 00:47:13.619
there the questioner

00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:15.960
David can you mute

00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:17.660
or something

00:47:17.660 --> 00:47:21.420
there was not only the questioner

00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:23.940
um but um

00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:27.319
and the person receiving you know

00:47:27.319 --> 00:47:30.540
exploring and being questioned but there

00:47:30.540 --> 00:47:33.119
was the presence in a way we were in an

00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:36.000
imaginal field is what it felt like and

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:38.700
as we stepped off the known and started

00:47:38.700 --> 00:47:40.800
to follow the

00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:41.520
um

00:47:41.520 --> 00:47:43.260
the

00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:46.619
where each thing opened up to something

00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:48.960
new and then there was a new place to

00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:51.420
stand from another another unknown that

00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:53.400
could then open and so we kept opening

00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:57.060
beyond what we knew that we were in this

00:47:57.060 --> 00:47:59.640
field and the field was playing with us

00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:02.040
the field was offering images or

00:48:02.040 --> 00:48:06.540
offering Sensations or and um and that

00:48:06.540 --> 00:48:08.280
felt

00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:09.000
um

00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:12.300
well to me that feels sacred that is a

00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:14.640
realm of the Sacred where where there's

00:48:14.640 --> 00:48:17.520
a um creativity

00:48:17.520 --> 00:48:19.640
um

00:48:19.680 --> 00:48:21.000
from

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:22.920
touching

00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:25.680
touching something new touching Reaching

00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:29.160
Across from where I am and touching into

00:48:29.160 --> 00:48:32.880
what is it like and then and then

00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:36.180
um so there's a a revealing that happens

00:48:36.180 --> 00:48:39.240
there so there's an intimacy

00:48:39.240 --> 00:48:41.160
um

00:48:41.160 --> 00:48:43.619
so I'm going beyond what I said in our

00:48:43.619 --> 00:48:45.839
group and I feel I feel pretty out there

00:48:45.839 --> 00:48:49.460
but um

00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:54.180
one of the experiences I had was

00:48:54.180 --> 00:48:57.300
um it was like being a baby bird just

00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:59.760
having pecked out of a an egg and

00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.859
there's the whole world

00:49:01.859 --> 00:49:04.079
that's completely different from where I

00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.560
just was you know it's it's not wet and

00:49:07.560 --> 00:49:12.119
it's not enclosed and it's and it's and

00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:16.380
then there's whatever I am as baby bird

00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:18.660
um that is not I'm not I don't have

00:49:18.660 --> 00:49:21.200
wings yet or I don't have them out yet

00:49:21.200 --> 00:49:24.720
and in all of that there's so there's

00:49:24.720 --> 00:49:28.740
this incredible newness

00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:35.400
and the and and then the holding of all

00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:38.520
of that is somehow

00:49:38.520 --> 00:49:41.220
um a welcoming

00:49:41.220 --> 00:49:42.839
and at ease

00:49:42.839 --> 00:49:45.720
and um

00:49:45.720 --> 00:49:48.119
a generosity even

00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:50.420
though

00:50:12.060 --> 00:50:15.180
I don't want to speak so I'm going to

00:50:15.180 --> 00:50:17.240
um

00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:23.760
I had the honor of being with Ray so

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:25.440
I'll start out

00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:26.960
um

00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:29.819
that intimacy

00:50:29.819 --> 00:50:35.839
was how our time together was as well

00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:43.700
and if I understand

00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:45.540
so I thought the first thing I want to

00:50:45.540 --> 00:50:47.339
say has to do with what Thomas brought

00:50:47.339 --> 00:50:49.619
up as well and you talked about the

00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:51.359
imaginal

00:50:51.359 --> 00:50:54.079
that

00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:56.160
as Ray put it

00:50:56.160 --> 00:50:58.440
two creatures

00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:02.300
we were just two creatures

00:51:03.359 --> 00:51:07.260
and as we went through the exercise of

00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:09.240
what's that like too

00:51:09.240 --> 00:51:12.359
followed by what's it like too

00:51:12.359 --> 00:51:15.720
followed by what's it like too you

00:51:15.720 --> 00:51:18.119
couldn't hold on to anything as part of

00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.140
your

00:51:19.140 --> 00:51:22.440
Identity or your Consciousness or your

00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:26.700
anything because if you leaned into the

00:51:26.700 --> 00:51:30.359
question coming from the other creatures

00:51:30.359 --> 00:51:32.640
interest

00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:36.420
there's no way to hold on to that thing

00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:39.480
so the design of the

00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:41.000
exercise

00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:44.339
allowed this freedom of expression and

00:51:44.339 --> 00:51:47.000
intimacy

00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:49.260
two more points I want to make and then

00:51:49.260 --> 00:51:51.660
I want to hear from Ray

00:51:51.660 --> 00:51:53.780
um

00:51:58.020 --> 00:52:03.000
there was something precious about

00:52:04.740 --> 00:52:09.180
the difference between Rey and I how it

00:52:09.180 --> 00:52:12.800
was like for us to be in that exercise

00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:16.559
it was not like the difference between

00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:19.339
Phoebe and David at the beginning

00:52:19.339 --> 00:52:23.579
opposites it was more like slightly

00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:27.240
different David's approaching was kind

00:52:27.240 --> 00:52:30.740
of or I'll just say it my Approach was

00:52:30.740 --> 00:52:34.440
here's this energy I'm feeling what do I

00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:36.359
do with it

00:52:36.359 --> 00:52:39.119
and raise

00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:43.500
sense was here's this energy

00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:47.819
how can I allow it and discern it

00:52:47.819 --> 00:52:53.880
and be with it so there was this slight

00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:59.819
um unique View and countenance

00:52:59.819 --> 00:53:03.359
and they were different and unique

00:53:03.359 --> 00:53:05.940
I was honored

00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:09.540
to show myself and to see Ray showing

00:53:09.540 --> 00:53:12.079
his self

00:53:17.220 --> 00:53:19.500
and there was something untouched a bit

00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:23.000
there was something about

00:53:25.260 --> 00:53:29.220
the genuine intrigue

00:53:29.220 --> 00:53:33.420
and desire in fact yearning to connect

00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:38.280
and know the other that I think might

00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:42.359
maybe have something to do with creating

00:53:42.359 --> 00:53:45.900
a convivial Society

00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:48.680
this

00:53:53.660 --> 00:53:57.599
yearning to connect with the other in

00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:02.180
exactly the way they are

00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:14.339
uh thank you Ray do you have anything to

00:54:14.339 --> 00:54:16.520
say

00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:21.380
thank you David

00:54:23.640 --> 00:54:24.960
um

00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:28.020
the creature thing was is really

00:54:28.020 --> 00:54:31.579
relevant to me and that

00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:35.280
I've seen the experiencing myself and

00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.760
others who are more like that lately so

00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.740
and I have to be really careful with

00:54:40.740 --> 00:54:41.760
that because

00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:43.859
I can kind of

00:54:43.859 --> 00:54:47.359
not get lost there but

00:54:48.020 --> 00:54:52.140
disconnect as well the thing that came

00:54:52.140 --> 00:54:54.960
was really strong in our

00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:57.599
uh engagement was this

00:54:57.599 --> 00:54:59.520
two things

00:54:59.520 --> 00:55:02.880
incredible willingness that didn't feel

00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:05.160
this stage

00:55:05.160 --> 00:55:08.400
like and a willingness From Within

00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:11.819
Myself and a willingness on women David

00:55:11.819 --> 00:55:15.420
but that was scary that was really wild

00:55:15.420 --> 00:55:18.000
and interesting the other thing that was

00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:20.579
really strong was you expect these

00:55:20.579 --> 00:55:24.079
little moments of flashes up

00:55:24.359 --> 00:55:27.540
I don't even know how to say it but how

00:55:27.540 --> 00:55:31.079
critical it is that we're all separate

00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:33.900
like that like that

00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:37.559
next experience the difference is

00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:40.619
so that that kind of contacts

00:55:40.619 --> 00:55:42.059
possible

00:55:42.059 --> 00:55:45.300
I don't know how else to think

00:55:45.300 --> 00:55:48.680
yeah David thank you

00:56:01.140 --> 00:56:04.140
okay

00:56:07.140 --> 00:56:09.920
uh

00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:17.280
three nights I think at a joint an

00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:20.280
interesting

00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:27.960
but I mean yeah Ray was important you

00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:31.380
know TV thing I definitely um it felt

00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:34.440
like an imaginal Carpet Ride

00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:37.500
and I'm wondering how much that has

00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:39.359
to do with I'm still a bit in the

00:56:39.359 --> 00:56:41.760
altered state I'm like being in the same

00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:44.700
room together or one I think that amps

00:56:44.700 --> 00:56:46.920
it up and

00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:50.040
I was the

00:56:50.040 --> 00:56:53.400
um the non-questioner first and like the

00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:57.660
problem just kept kept inviting my

00:56:57.660 --> 00:56:59.400
imagination to go further and further

00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.440
from conventional

00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:05.579
reality and and I ended it like induced

00:57:05.579 --> 00:57:08.579
just an altered state like almost like I

00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:10.740
could watch the neurochemical shifting

00:57:10.740 --> 00:57:14.940
and memory and practically project

00:57:14.940 --> 00:57:16.819
so

00:57:16.819 --> 00:57:20.640
uh yeah I just said afterwards it would

00:57:20.640 --> 00:57:23.460
be really hard to get anything done and

00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:26.000
this is

00:57:26.640 --> 00:57:29.339
I think it was yeah it

00:57:29.339 --> 00:57:33.319
definitely you know yet imaginable

00:57:35.099 --> 00:57:37.260
yeah I mean literally

00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:39.300
um there were moments where

00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:42.180
I was imagining myself flying through

00:57:42.180 --> 00:57:45.059
the universe liberated from tolerance

00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:48.119
and it was so out there I I would just

00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:49.680
like my eyes would get big and then

00:57:49.680 --> 00:57:52.880
Katie's eyes would get big

00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:55.260
and

00:57:55.260 --> 00:57:56.280
um

00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:59.579
and then there was a sitting opposite a

00:57:59.579 --> 00:58:01.440
window and and there was a little bit of

00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:03.059
sunlight that would dance on the rooftop

00:58:03.059 --> 00:58:05.640
that was just in my view and then it

00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:07.260
would remind me that I was sitting that

00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:09.420
and that that moment that I'd be

00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:13.260
reminded I was sitting there I felt so

00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:16.140
deeply grounded and

00:58:16.140 --> 00:58:18.059
um I could be aware of how much more

00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:20.339
awake I

00:58:20.339 --> 00:58:22.559
um my senses were

00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:26.099
that sense of awaken a lot and then I

00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:28.020
would sort of touch ground for a moment

00:58:28.020 --> 00:58:30.619
and then

00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:33.619
wow

00:58:36.240 --> 00:58:40.920
so this is very very important

00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:42.839
and I you know

00:58:42.839 --> 00:58:47.000
we're all leading up to this and that is

00:58:47.099 --> 00:58:50.040
when you think of your psyche the

00:58:50.040 --> 00:58:52.319
structures in your psyche

00:58:52.319 --> 00:58:55.380
you know the little parts and managers

00:58:55.380 --> 00:58:58.740
and the hurt little girl and the Shane

00:58:58.740 --> 00:59:01.559
these are all imagined

00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:06.319
Into Your Existence by your upbringing

00:59:06.720 --> 00:59:09.480
so here's a counter factual imagine if

00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:12.119
what was inside of people's psyches were

00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:13.920
these kinds of things

00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:16.680
that were reflected from the earth in

00:59:16.680 --> 00:59:20.359
the world and the things of the world

00:59:20.359 --> 00:59:23.339
they've sit they sit with your reality

00:59:23.339 --> 00:59:26.339
as much as the other imagined ones do

00:59:26.339 --> 00:59:28.619
and the other imagined ones are not

00:59:28.619 --> 00:59:29.700
useful

00:59:29.700 --> 00:59:32.220
for human race

00:59:32.220 --> 00:59:34.319
they're contracted there's like oh me

00:59:34.319 --> 00:59:37.440
mine I a gatekeep I don't want people to

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:39.900
know this and it's just as easy that you

00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:42.780
could grow up with this kind of imaginal

00:59:42.780 --> 00:59:44.400
content

00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:48.799
being what your psyche is like

00:59:52.859 --> 00:59:54.480
and you know I think you're all

00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:56.520
expressing how like you never want to do

00:59:56.520 --> 00:59:58.500
anything else this is a good sign

00:59:58.500 --> 01:00:00.540
because you wouldn't want to have a job

01:00:00.540 --> 01:00:02.520
and make money and ruin the Earth it

01:00:02.520 --> 01:00:05.240
would just be

01:00:05.240 --> 01:00:07.920
constantly and this is what our new

01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:09.660
theory of the body is you bring the

01:00:09.660 --> 01:00:11.940
Earth in the sky and the rocks and the

01:00:11.940 --> 01:00:15.119
creatures they somehow live in you in

01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.819
this imaginal what realm and they could

01:00:17.819 --> 01:00:20.700
constitute your psyche

01:00:20.700 --> 01:00:23.099
just as much as the ID the eagle the

01:00:23.099 --> 01:00:25.319
 super ego that all these other

01:00:25.319 --> 01:00:27.540
 things that are put in our

01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:30.020
psyche

01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:35.700
right so this is a a counter factual an

01:00:35.700 --> 01:00:38.880
imaginative projection into what could

01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:42.140
be possible for people

01:00:45.720 --> 01:00:49.760
how do you go about switching that then

01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:53.780
um

01:00:54.720 --> 01:00:56.640
I think it's different for different

01:00:56.640 --> 01:00:59.160
people like for me understanding how it

01:00:59.160 --> 01:01:02.819
works is always been liberating to me

01:01:02.819 --> 01:01:06.260
like making these distinctions

01:01:06.260 --> 01:01:09.540
noticing that

01:01:09.540 --> 01:01:13.020
um like these gestures how how the

01:01:13.020 --> 01:01:15.839
gesture of there's poor little me inside

01:01:15.839 --> 01:01:19.160
of me this is conditioned by your mother

01:01:19.160 --> 01:01:21.900
or parents

01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:23.880
um

01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:26.700
yeah I think if you know how how what's

01:01:26.700 --> 01:01:28.619
under the hood you know how it operates

01:01:28.619 --> 01:01:31.380
problem is you probably studied a lot

01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:33.780
with people telling you how it operates

01:01:33.780 --> 01:01:36.480
and it's just all kind of malware it's

01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:39.059
all really so

01:01:39.059 --> 01:01:40.920
um this is an alternative way to

01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:43.020
understand what could be in your psyche

01:01:43.020 --> 01:01:45.299
you could look in your psyche and see

01:01:45.299 --> 01:01:46.740
nature

01:01:46.740 --> 01:01:48.540
see the kinds of things you see in

01:01:48.540 --> 01:01:49.559
nature

01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:51.359
if that doesn't mean you wouldn't always

01:01:51.359 --> 01:01:53.700
be sad you could have looked in and

01:01:53.700 --> 01:01:58.559
saw a butterfly who you know who only

01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:01.740
has one Wing or you know doesn't not

01:02:01.740 --> 01:02:04.020
trying to make this all Goody Goody

01:02:04.020 --> 01:02:05.640
Two-Shoes but

01:02:05.640 --> 01:02:08.119
if you looked in and you saw the sadness

01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:10.260
then you would

01:02:10.260 --> 01:02:12.900
it's nature empathically projecting on

01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:14.520
to you while you're empathically

01:02:14.520 --> 01:02:17.520
projecting onto nature and this is how

01:02:17.520 --> 01:02:19.619
the psyche work it projects and

01:02:19.619 --> 01:02:22.140
interjects and projects and introjects

01:02:22.140 --> 01:02:24.240
that is the proper role of the psyche

01:02:24.240 --> 01:02:27.319
but all we do is Project ideal cells and

01:02:27.319 --> 01:02:30.359
introductions this is the language of

01:02:30.359 --> 01:02:32.880
psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy and

01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:36.420
it's it's it it uses the same mechanism

01:02:36.420 --> 01:02:40.140
but it's not useful it's it's not it's

01:02:40.140 --> 01:02:42.540
not flourishing it's not a way to

01:02:42.540 --> 01:02:44.460
flourish with the

01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:48.440
mechanism that this psyche is

01:02:55.740 --> 01:02:58.920
there's no need to eliminate it like in

01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:01.559
maybe some kind of Zen ideal

01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:03.960
um but to understand what is the nature

01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.240
of the psyche empathic projection and

01:03:06.240 --> 01:03:09.299
interjection habitat and habitats the

01:03:09.299 --> 01:03:12.299
constant exchange of interaction and

01:03:12.299 --> 01:03:14.160
internalization interaction and

01:03:14.160 --> 01:03:17.400
internalization and right now it's

01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:19.500
reduced to a handful of

01:03:19.500 --> 01:03:22.859
strange rearing habits and educational

01:03:22.859 --> 01:03:25.700
habits in children and and

01:03:25.700 --> 01:03:28.920
lots of drama on TV or whatever whatever

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:30.960
we exchange and

01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:32.940
put in our psyches

01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:35.700
is not really drawn from much of the

01:03:35.700 --> 01:03:37.319
world just from kind of like the

01:03:37.319 --> 01:03:39.480
contracted human world that's what most

01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:42.920
people find in their psyches

01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:47.839
so this is a big deal it's it's a

01:03:48.180 --> 01:03:50.880
really the teaching Point around

01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:54.260
uh this module I mean

01:03:54.260 --> 01:03:57.839
you also know synesthesia you know you

01:03:57.839 --> 01:04:00.359
might be thinking of the wind and then

01:04:00.359 --> 01:04:03.059
that makes you feel like a sound and the

01:04:03.059 --> 01:04:04.619
sound makes you feel something in your

01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:07.140
body and it all kind of

01:04:07.140 --> 01:04:09.000
threaded together through different

01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:10.799
senses

01:04:10.799 --> 01:04:12.799
um

01:04:21.200 --> 01:04:26.339
so so we this project is to put you know

01:04:26.339 --> 01:04:28.740
the Mind back into the body and the body

01:04:28.740 --> 01:04:31.500
back into nature and we always have this

01:04:31.500 --> 01:04:33.599
question what is it what what it would

01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:36.540
be like if you went inside and what you

01:04:36.540 --> 01:04:39.480
discovered was nature like when I point

01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:40.740
to Nature

01:04:40.740 --> 01:04:42.480
this would be

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:47.339
the the sense of that one of the ways to

01:04:47.339 --> 01:04:48.119
um

01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:49.920
practice

01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:53.400
uh practice that

01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:55.579
um

01:05:02.520 --> 01:05:05.460
are there any other shares

01:05:05.460 --> 01:05:08.640
that was so amazing everything you just

01:05:08.640 --> 01:05:13.799
said was so amazing thank you for that

01:05:13.799 --> 01:05:16.740
um and I'm just feeling like even in in

01:05:16.740 --> 01:05:20.099
one place in my experience of

01:05:20.099 --> 01:05:22.319
what was happening for me what it was

01:05:22.319 --> 01:05:25.619
like to me me and I I

01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:28.680
became like this ground squirrel poking

01:05:28.680 --> 01:05:30.540
up out of a hole and I could feel like

01:05:30.540 --> 01:05:32.520
the safety of the earth and the under

01:05:32.520 --> 01:05:35.700
home and all of that but I was also very

01:05:35.700 --> 01:05:39.119
curious and very stealth and like about

01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:42.059
to go on an adventure into like the

01:05:42.059 --> 01:05:45.240
unknown and just as you're sharing what

01:05:45.240 --> 01:05:47.760
you're sharing what what I'm finding so

01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:49.799
cool is that and I said this in the in

01:05:49.799 --> 01:05:51.299
the group that I hadn't quite really

01:05:51.299 --> 01:05:52.980
tied it

01:05:52.980 --> 01:05:56.160
that was what I was feeling as this kept

01:05:56.160 --> 01:05:58.740
expanding but my brother used to shoot

01:05:58.740 --> 01:06:00.839
grounds girls with a BB gun when I was a

01:06:00.839 --> 01:06:02.640
kid and I could have been oh I'm a

01:06:02.640 --> 01:06:04.319
grounds girl oh my God danger danger

01:06:04.319 --> 01:06:07.020
danger like and I just am feeling the

01:06:07.020 --> 01:06:08.880
two different parts of what are we

01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:10.319
imagining

01:06:10.319 --> 01:06:12.240
yeah

01:06:12.240 --> 01:06:15.119
and this exercise and this way of coming

01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:19.920
in opens up opens me out of this pain of

01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:23.160
my lived experience doors of my psyche

01:06:23.160 --> 01:06:26.760
into this like yeah it's a damn

01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:29.400
Adventure like whoa what is gonna happen

01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:31.319
next this is amazing

01:06:31.319 --> 01:06:33.359
yeah

01:06:33.359 --> 01:06:36.140
thank you

01:06:46.680 --> 01:06:52.520
I could really sense the oh God

01:07:03.900 --> 01:07:07.579
you guys will control that right

01:07:08.720 --> 01:07:11.400
they're in charge

01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:13.319
um

01:07:13.319 --> 01:07:16.700
all of the

01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:20.039
multi-layers of experience like the

01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:22.859
place where what is it like to be you I

01:07:22.859 --> 01:07:23.880
could

01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:28.260
watch the psyches storyline I could feel

01:07:28.260 --> 01:07:31.500
the you know outside the window there

01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:33.900
was a chainsaw with somebody cutting

01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:37.859
things down and just

01:07:37.859 --> 01:07:41.220
words language is so coarse grained

01:07:41.220 --> 01:07:44.400
there was only the possibility of just

01:07:44.400 --> 01:07:48.720
finding the the movement

01:07:48.720 --> 01:07:51.000
and being able to

01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:53.880
it's like this

01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:55.380
and

01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:57.380
um

01:07:57.480 --> 01:08:00.240
you know we have 30 some odd years of

01:08:00.240 --> 01:08:02.940
empathic projections so it was really

01:08:02.940 --> 01:08:04.380
lovely to

01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:08.220
find another dimension of

01:08:08.220 --> 01:08:13.099
how to be in that space it's beautiful

01:08:17.759 --> 01:08:21.060
and here comes the other half of you I

01:08:21.060 --> 01:08:24.060
did start without you

01:08:24.060 --> 01:08:27.239
do you have something to say

01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:32.239
you finished I'm finished just in time

01:08:34.799 --> 01:08:37.199
so it was particularly interesting

01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:39.480
because

01:08:39.480 --> 01:08:41.580
we have a long history of doing these

01:08:41.580 --> 01:08:43.739
things together

01:08:43.739 --> 01:08:46.620
in these inquiries but

01:08:46.620 --> 01:08:50.699
not in this structure

01:08:50.699 --> 01:08:53.460
and particularly

01:08:53.460 --> 01:08:57.000
after looking at that idea of the

01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:00.299
the imagining being on the beach or the

01:09:00.299 --> 01:09:01.440
mountain

01:09:01.440 --> 01:09:04.380
and then remembering

01:09:04.380 --> 01:09:06.960
so I was putting a lot of that together

01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:09.719
as we were doing this

01:09:09.719 --> 01:09:12.799
and um

01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:17.900
the idea of what's it like

01:09:18.299 --> 01:09:22.259
my big brain popped in

01:09:22.259 --> 01:09:25.500
I said it was all humility

01:09:25.500 --> 01:09:29.040
well my small brain too

01:09:29.040 --> 01:09:31.679
popped in and started to look at well

01:09:31.679 --> 01:09:35.160
what's it like is a simile and how is

01:09:35.160 --> 01:09:37.620
that different from a metaphor as I was

01:09:37.620 --> 01:09:40.580
listening to the instructions

01:09:41.400 --> 01:09:43.080
but then

01:09:43.080 --> 01:09:44.819
really when

01:09:44.819 --> 01:09:46.620
went to

01:09:46.620 --> 01:09:49.620
the the feelings

01:09:49.620 --> 01:09:52.020
and the sense of it

01:09:52.020 --> 01:09:55.100
what's it like

01:09:55.260 --> 01:09:58.020
so um

01:09:58.020 --> 01:09:59.940
trying that on

01:09:59.940 --> 01:10:02.340
and

01:10:02.340 --> 01:10:04.860
was appreciating just the

01:10:04.860 --> 01:10:08.580
the feeling States of

01:10:08.580 --> 01:10:11.820
a one-handed feeling sad then what's it

01:10:11.820 --> 01:10:14.040
like to be sad

01:10:14.040 --> 01:10:17.760
and how that prompted

01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:21.600
the idea of loss of freedom

01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:25.159
and then feeling free

01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:28.040
and

01:10:28.260 --> 01:10:30.739
then

01:10:32.940 --> 01:10:34.320
the

01:10:34.320 --> 01:10:37.320
question again what's it like

01:10:37.320 --> 01:10:40.340
to feel free

01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:45.239
I started thinking of a of a bird or

01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:49.020
some Christian that might be afraid

01:10:49.020 --> 01:10:52.219
and I've often

01:10:52.260 --> 01:10:55.860
connected with with birds

01:10:55.860 --> 01:10:58.560
among for the first time

01:10:58.560 --> 01:11:01.860
a purpose popped into my head

01:11:01.860 --> 01:11:04.199
just being free in the ocean

01:11:04.199 --> 01:11:08.159
and I love water so it was really

01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:09.659
felt

01:11:09.659 --> 01:11:14.699
organic and resonant with me but then

01:11:14.699 --> 01:11:18.300
I had this idea but he's alone

01:11:18.300 --> 01:11:21.179
and my my editor came in and said you

01:11:21.179 --> 01:11:22.080
don't want to be alone pick another

01:11:22.080 --> 01:11:24.380
animal

01:11:26.400 --> 01:11:28.020
um

01:11:28.020 --> 01:11:29.400
that

01:11:29.400 --> 01:11:33.780
whole idea of you know

01:11:33.780 --> 01:11:37.500
the relationship with reality

01:11:37.500 --> 01:11:41.040
popped me back into the the mountain

01:11:41.040 --> 01:11:43.679
remembering the Mountaintop and and

01:11:43.679 --> 01:11:45.840
imagining a Mountaintop

01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:49.140
that Mountaintop has always been such a

01:11:49.140 --> 01:11:54.239
a similar for an expansive place and

01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:58.739
a boundless free her unlimited Horizons

01:11:58.739 --> 01:12:00.719
in space

01:12:00.719 --> 01:12:03.540
so that always feels really really

01:12:03.540 --> 01:12:05.340
wonderful

01:12:05.340 --> 01:12:06.840
but then

01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:10.800
going into memory the the different

01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:14.760
sense of that and the memory that was

01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:17.640
such a grounded place

01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:20.480
it's a

01:12:21.300 --> 01:12:24.000
a reality a grounded a reality of the

01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:26.420
you know I'm singing well the the

01:12:26.420 --> 01:12:29.400
virtual Mountaintop versus the grounded

01:12:29.400 --> 01:12:31.560
memory of a Mountaintop

01:12:31.560 --> 01:12:34.860
and how that is such a a different

01:12:34.860 --> 01:12:36.179
experience

01:12:36.179 --> 01:12:39.719
in a an experience of reality versus an

01:12:39.719 --> 01:12:42.679
imagined reality

01:12:42.780 --> 01:12:44.219
so

01:12:44.219 --> 01:12:46.620
that brought me back to

01:12:46.620 --> 01:12:47.239
the

01:12:47.239 --> 01:12:49.080
porpoise

01:12:49.080 --> 01:12:52.140
and and the freedom

01:12:52.140 --> 01:12:54.540
and in our and Sandy's of my

01:12:54.540 --> 01:12:58.760
explorations of this in the past

01:12:59.040 --> 01:13:00.860
my

01:13:00.860 --> 01:13:03.239
experience my my

01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:05.699
empathic projection on her and her

01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:08.400
experience I'm assuming she told you at

01:13:08.400 --> 01:13:09.960
the same thing she told me so I'll just

01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:12.120
go from there

01:13:12.120 --> 01:13:15.179
that place of of hidden

01:13:15.179 --> 01:13:16.620
and

01:13:16.620 --> 01:13:18.540
and waiting

01:13:18.540 --> 01:13:20.219
to

01:13:20.219 --> 01:13:22.199
have I didn't tell them oh you didn't

01:13:22.199 --> 01:13:25.140
tell them oh holding back here

01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:27.840
all right yeah three minutes do you want

01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:28.420
some privacy

01:13:28.420 --> 01:13:31.860
[Laughter]

01:13:31.860 --> 01:13:34.140
but that empathic

01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:36.000
projection on

01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:40.140
the the aspect of freedom and waiting

01:13:40.140 --> 01:13:42.840
for that unbridled

01:13:42.840 --> 01:13:45.360
want and

01:13:45.360 --> 01:13:47.219
expression

01:13:47.219 --> 01:13:48.719
of

01:13:48.719 --> 01:13:53.940
of Life excitement and how the in our

01:13:53.940 --> 01:13:55.980
culturalization our family systems sort

01:13:55.980 --> 01:13:59.300
of constrained that and how that is

01:13:59.300 --> 01:14:03.000
representative of the of the porpoise

01:14:03.000 --> 01:14:06.239
and in the Pod doesn't have to be alone

01:14:06.239 --> 01:14:08.460
they have purpose part so just have to

01:14:08.460 --> 01:14:10.739
find one she wants to come too I'm sure

01:14:10.739 --> 01:14:12.739
here's one right here

01:14:12.739 --> 01:14:16.100
so thank you

01:14:16.860 --> 01:14:21.120
so we can just end with this imaginative

01:14:21.120 --> 01:14:23.360
this exercise imagine

01:14:23.360 --> 01:14:26.300
[Music]

01:14:26.300 --> 01:14:28.980
what it would be like

01:14:28.980 --> 01:14:31.880
for a person

01:14:33.420 --> 01:14:36.060
to always be

01:14:36.060 --> 01:14:39.060
in the mode of empathic projection what

01:14:39.060 --> 01:14:41.159
is it like to be that rock what is it

01:14:41.159 --> 01:14:43.920
like to be that

01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:46.679
tree Japanese what is it like to be

01:14:46.679 --> 01:14:48.179
those

01:14:48.179 --> 01:14:50.040
flowers

01:14:50.040 --> 01:14:53.239
what it like to be that

01:14:53.239 --> 01:14:55.560
cashmere blanket

01:14:55.560 --> 01:15:00.020
well I can feel feel what it's like

01:15:00.360 --> 01:15:03.060
and you never ever imagined what it was

01:15:03.060 --> 01:15:05.900
like to be yourself

01:15:09.900 --> 01:15:13.400
that would be a kind of freedom

01:15:21.320 --> 01:15:22.980
psychedelic

01:15:22.980 --> 01:15:25.320
Bonnie that was that happened really

01:15:25.320 --> 01:15:27.840
early on in our diet and I and when she

01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:29.640
asked what's that like I just I said a

01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:31.739
relief

01:15:31.739 --> 01:15:35.340
such a relief yeah so actually if you

01:15:35.340 --> 01:15:37.800
asked me what is it like to be me that's

01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:40.860
very close to what it's like to be me I

01:15:40.860 --> 01:15:43.260
mean I I was in a retreat with Bob

01:15:43.260 --> 01:15:45.179
Keegan and he asked me a question like

01:15:45.179 --> 01:15:46.920
what do you like what do you want to do

01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:48.480
with your life or something like you're

01:15:48.480 --> 01:15:50.940
so talented and I'm like I don't know

01:15:50.940 --> 01:15:53.159
because I don't have a perspective on

01:15:53.159 --> 01:15:55.860
who I am like

01:15:55.860 --> 01:15:58.320
like I don't

01:15:58.320 --> 01:16:00.980
yeah

01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:07.020
so that's an that's an interesting

01:16:07.020 --> 01:16:09.239
question to imagine what it might be

01:16:09.239 --> 01:16:11.480
like

01:16:12.060 --> 01:16:15.780
okay my friends this went fast

01:16:15.780 --> 01:16:18.840
have a very good day and maybe I'll see

01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:21.500
you later this week

## Cohort 2

00:00:01.560 --> 00:00:04.560
foreign

00:00:09.690 --> 00:00:14.920
[Music]

00:00:15.719 --> 00:00:19.560
I'm thinking I want you I want I want

00:00:19.560 --> 00:00:22.760
this is a proposal

00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:24.000
okay

00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:27.060
so I'm thinking that

00:00:27.060 --> 00:00:30.480
the exercise we were doing

00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:32.279
uh in the first

00:00:32.279 --> 00:00:34.079
session which of course some of you

00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:36.420
didn't see

00:00:36.420 --> 00:00:40.020
um instead of just going to dyads I'm

00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:43.700
wondering if you would like me to demo

00:00:43.700 --> 00:00:48.800
with each of you that process

00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:53.100
and I you I think Ann is the only one

00:00:53.100 --> 00:00:55.620
that doesn't know what the process is so

00:00:55.620 --> 00:00:58.379
maybe we should start with her

00:00:58.379 --> 00:01:02.520
uh yay in a completely naive way

00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:06.240
but I will show you what we're doing

00:01:06.240 --> 00:01:09.780
um and uh

00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:10.920
um

00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.260
yeah in a second so let's put it in the

00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:14.760
framework of

00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:17.460
the course content which is imagination

00:01:17.460 --> 00:01:21.600
and synesthesia and the whole uh idea

00:01:21.600 --> 00:01:26.159
here is that our ability to imagine

00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.180
which is a process of

00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:32.880
threading things that are alike but not

00:01:32.880 --> 00:01:37.740
like together so they seem to be like

00:01:37.740 --> 00:01:42.439
um comes from the embodied perceptual

00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.420
faculties we have as higher animals

00:01:45.420 --> 00:01:47.700
there is a lot of research that shows

00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:51.000
this is in the animal kingdom down to a

00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:52.079
certain level

00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:55.439
is that our perceptual capacities are

00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:58.320
integrated which means they're crossed

00:01:58.320 --> 00:01:59.880
so

00:01:59.880 --> 00:02:04.740
I can say oh that was a sharp sound

00:02:04.740 --> 00:02:08.459
sharp is something that feels like a cut

00:02:08.459 --> 00:02:12.780
sound is something that is auditory

00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:15.420
right and it just makes complete sense

00:02:15.420 --> 00:02:20.819
to us sharp sound or that was you know

00:02:20.819 --> 00:02:22.080
um

00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:26.160
I don't know you you got the idea with

00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:28.560
that especially that William gas article

00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.720
where he's um being blue where it's blue

00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:32.700
there's blue there's blue this like all

00:02:32.700 --> 00:02:35.819
the perceptual ships around this one

00:02:35.819 --> 00:02:37.980
little word that's trying to Anchor all

00:02:37.980 --> 00:02:39.180
this meaning

00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:44.040
and so imagination is

00:02:44.040 --> 00:02:46.319
um in the body like most people will

00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.300
talk about imagination in the mind we

00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:51.000
talk about it as mental content but it's

00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:54.420
an expression of perceptual blending

00:02:54.420 --> 00:02:57.000
that happens anyway in the animal

00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:58.200
kingdom

00:02:58.200 --> 00:03:00.720
and there's research that shows that

00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:04.860
with people our perceptual like things

00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:07.739
are more crossed there's more like like

00:03:07.739 --> 00:03:09.959
I said in the content it's not that we

00:03:09.959 --> 00:03:12.120
it's not only that we have more wires

00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.060
but they they're they're like crossed

00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:17.700
it's like you're old enough to be on one

00:03:17.700 --> 00:03:19.500
of those old phones

00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:22.319
where the

00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:24.540
I mean I'm old enough that we had a

00:03:24.540 --> 00:03:27.239
phone that was a communal phone and like

00:03:27.239 --> 00:03:29.040
other people would be talking because

00:03:29.040 --> 00:03:31.319
the wires were crossed okay

00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.780
so

00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:37.319
um so this is how we're slowly building

00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.379
into like more more and more complex

00:03:40.379 --> 00:03:42.120
thought and seeing that everything is

00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.000
not like emergent from the body in the

00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.620
sense of oh my God now we have

00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:49.200
imagination it's emergent from bodily

00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:51.720
processes it's just an extension that's

00:03:51.720 --> 00:03:54.780
continuous with bodily processes

00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:58.040
we will also note that there's something

00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:01.260
similar to this in imagination in the

00:04:01.260 --> 00:04:03.840
sense that perceptual Crossing is like

00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:05.459
imagination you take a little bit of

00:04:05.459 --> 00:04:07.560
this and you mash it up with this and

00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:10.019
you put it in here there's always this

00:04:10.019 --> 00:04:13.500
kind of delusion assemblage happening

00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:15.959
right so that's how it comes from the

00:04:15.959 --> 00:04:19.739
pre also the previous module so we are

00:04:19.739 --> 00:04:20.880
going to work

00:04:20.880 --> 00:04:25.199
our way from here to uh representational

00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:29.280
thought which is thought proper

00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:31.800
um but we're going to play in this field

00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:36.540
of of sin aesthesia and

00:04:36.540 --> 00:04:39.780
um the interesting way in which really

00:04:39.780 --> 00:04:42.300
clock cross-culturally not all of this

00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:45.780
works cross-culturally that we can say

00:04:45.780 --> 00:04:50.639
you know that sound was sharp or

00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:53.280
yeah so

00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:54.360
um

00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.419
um Imagination is a virtualization of

00:04:57.419 --> 00:04:59.460
perception but perceptions already

00:04:59.460 --> 00:05:00.840
crossed

00:05:00.840 --> 00:05:04.080
we'll move on to Metaphor we're gonna

00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:06.600
we're gonna work with metaphor today too

00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.180
because I'm going to ask you what is it

00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:13.979
like to be you it's already a metaphor

00:05:13.979 --> 00:05:17.280
and what we want to notice is that in

00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:19.740
answering that you have a bodily felt

00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:20.759
sense

00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:24.600
and then you need to cross it or you

00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:28.259
need to create some kind of imaginative

00:05:28.259 --> 00:05:33.240
thread to explain that because your

00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:34.860
experience

00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:36.419
is

00:05:36.419 --> 00:05:38.960
somewhat shared we have mirror neurons

00:05:38.960 --> 00:05:42.539
but somewhat private and when I ask you

00:05:42.539 --> 00:05:45.479
to explain what is it like to be you I

00:05:45.479 --> 00:05:47.039
have this really cool little book it

00:05:47.039 --> 00:05:50.220
says born on a blue day this is a person

00:05:50.220 --> 00:05:53.660
who's on the autistic Spectrum

00:05:53.660 --> 00:05:56.419
and uh

00:05:56.419 --> 00:05:59.639
sees feelings in terms of colors right

00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.520
Born on a blue day what is it like to be

00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:05.100
you well I was born on a blue day

00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:06.620
and so

00:06:06.620 --> 00:06:10.460
uh this seems like uh

00:06:10.460 --> 00:06:15.419
pathology or not non-normative uh only

00:06:15.419 --> 00:06:18.840
because the kind of Crossing is not

00:06:18.840 --> 00:06:22.979
normal but everything we think in

00:06:22.979 --> 00:06:25.800
everything we say is the same way we

00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:29.039
take I was born on a blue day

00:06:29.039 --> 00:06:34.500
um I'm a Enneagram seven I mean all are

00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:37.759
um I like to do this because I'm kind of

00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:41.580
this kind of person or

00:06:41.580 --> 00:06:43.380
um we'll get into science that's a

00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:46.680
little harder but even Science is based

00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:50.000
on metaphors that are based upon

00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.300
synesthetic Crossing

00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:58.319
uh so Einstein said gravity is like when

00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.740
you're in an elevator and you feel that

00:07:00.740 --> 00:07:03.780
you're in a elevator when it goes up you

00:07:03.780 --> 00:07:06.360
feel going down gravity is like

00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.100
acceleration

00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:11.340
it's just a metaphor it's taking the

00:07:11.340 --> 00:07:14.940
felt sense of one thing and Crossing it

00:07:14.940 --> 00:07:17.520
with a concept concept

00:07:17.520 --> 00:07:20.160
that was created by Newton

00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.160
and finding that that is more robust

00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:25.680
than what Newton said

00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:30.900
so this is extremely common and familiar

00:07:30.900 --> 00:07:33.900
to you what we're going to do

00:07:33.900 --> 00:07:37.080
but is extremely important

00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:39.840
to saying that everything else in the

00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:44.580
human condition is actually pivots on

00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:48.300
this kind of normal ordinary way and you

00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:49.500
know the other thing I was thinking

00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:52.620
today is like kids before they're

00:07:52.620 --> 00:07:55.919
educated out of it they make all kinds

00:07:55.919 --> 00:07:58.259
of creative they're like what's wrong

00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:00.360
with you oh I feel like like my head is

00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.900
a cloud or you know they don't have the

00:08:03.900 --> 00:08:08.539
like so education reduces the numbers of

00:08:08.539 --> 00:08:11.160
metaphors you can have

00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.400
uh but children they sell kinds of crazy

00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:16.740
things they're not crazy things you know

00:08:16.740 --> 00:08:19.699
what I mean because they like

00:08:19.699 --> 00:08:23.220
oh I feel like I feel like

00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:25.319
what would they say I feel like when the

00:08:25.319 --> 00:08:27.599
chocolate gets too

00:08:27.599 --> 00:08:30.060
too too wet

00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:32.279
I feel like when the chocolate gets too

00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:34.800
wet right and what they're saying is

00:08:34.800 --> 00:08:35.820
what

00:08:35.820 --> 00:08:38.339
we're sleeping about their mouth that

00:08:38.339 --> 00:08:41.159
you yeah last time the chocolate got too

00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.800
wet and you said the chocolates all over

00:08:43.800 --> 00:08:46.260
your mouth has gotten it's hot got wet

00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:48.480
and so

00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.019
what were what I'm trying to say is like

00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:55.860
this is like the essential vitality

00:08:55.860 --> 00:08:58.440
of being a human like we're starting to

00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.860
exit the animal realm they do perceptual

00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:04.860
Crossing and they do some metaphorical

00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:08.040
Crossing in terms of this means that so

00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:09.720
you can teach an animal that this word

00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.620
means that but we're starting to see

00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:17.940
what is native to human intelligence

00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:20.160
and it's not emergent it's just

00:09:20.160 --> 00:09:23.279
extension right it's an amplification or

00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:26.459
extension in a certain sense it has its

00:09:26.459 --> 00:09:29.940
own proclivity for going awry because

00:09:29.940 --> 00:09:34.880
like if I tell you like

00:09:35.779 --> 00:09:39.120
oh like nuns you know like you are

00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.480
married to God and then they wear Rings

00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:45.000
that's a that's a profound metaphor

00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:47.519
right so maybe that's useful maybe

00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:51.360
that's not useful so

00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:52.260
um

00:09:52.260 --> 00:09:56.519
this is kind of a pivotal thing and yet

00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:59.279
it's very trivial the exorcism exercises

00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:01.080
are quite trivial they're ordinary

00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:02.880
they're effortless because it's

00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:04.880
something that we do

00:10:04.880 --> 00:10:08.339
automatically are they aren't there any

00:10:08.339 --> 00:10:09.860
questions right now do you understand

00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:13.459
synesthesia like imagination and then

00:10:13.459 --> 00:10:15.480
synesthesia if we didn't have

00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:18.500
synesthesia we couldn't like

00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:21.240
imaginatively combine all these things

00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.940
we did realize that

00:10:23.940 --> 00:10:25.640
um in dreams

00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:29.940
we disassemble and reassemble uh

00:10:29.940 --> 00:10:33.360
memories right so we can the rats can

00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.000
create mazes that don't exist simulate

00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.240
hypothetical environments so the

00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.279
disassembly and reassembly is at that

00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:45.540
level and now we have disassemble and

00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:49.079
reassemble of the relationships between

00:10:49.079 --> 00:10:53.760
different perceptual modalities

00:10:54.540 --> 00:10:57.060
any questions about that that's the

00:10:57.060 --> 00:11:01.100
theory and then we'll go into the demos

00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.779
yeah Susan

00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:06.899
um I'm not sure if this is a as a

00:11:06.899 --> 00:11:08.700
question specifically about what you've

00:11:08.700 --> 00:11:13.019
said but I was wondering after last week

00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:16.079
whether I'd actually completely missed

00:11:16.079 --> 00:11:18.480
the boat and got on an airplane because

00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.680
uh all I was sharing every time the

00:11:22.680 --> 00:11:25.200
question was asked and what was

00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.640
happening I was just sharing how I felt

00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:33.000
I'm not sure that I was really answering

00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.180
the question or in the space that you

00:11:36.180 --> 00:11:38.279
were speaking of now

00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.320
so first of all she said I missed the

00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:43.320
Bolton got an airplane you see the cross

00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.440
model I think yeah so this is why I'm

00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:48.899
happy to do a demo because people did

00:11:48.899 --> 00:11:51.240
not take the instructor

00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:52.800
seriously

00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:55.200
they did not what take the instructions

00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.480
seriously but that always happens on the

00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.380
first the the first time

00:12:00.380 --> 00:12:03.839
uh because I'm going to ask you

00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:05.820
remember I said the instructions if it's

00:12:05.820 --> 00:12:08.339
a noun you ask this if it's a verb you

00:12:08.339 --> 00:12:10.980
ask this and I think people got into

00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.100
storytelling

00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:16.200
uh so we're gonna do this

00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.959
we're going to do this more methodically

00:12:18.959 --> 00:12:24.120
okay and that's okay because I actually

00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:24.899
um

00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:27.240
just kind of designed it so it would

00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:30.180
just be a preliminary

00:12:30.180 --> 00:12:31.079
um

00:12:31.079 --> 00:12:33.720
so I'm gonna so first I will show you

00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:36.120
the methodology

00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:39.060
um so you know what I'm doing and then

00:12:39.060 --> 00:12:39.959
we'll

00:12:39.959 --> 00:12:42.779
um do demos with with everyone it's kind

00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:49.380
of fun uh but so uh uh yeah yeah where's

00:12:49.380 --> 00:12:52.139
my mural board I wanted to show you this

00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:54.540
last time but I didn't have acts I was

00:12:54.540 --> 00:12:56.279
on a different computer and for some

00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:02.040
reason I didn't have access to my own uh

00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:05.459
oh Lord okay

00:13:05.459 --> 00:13:07.920
so this is the

00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:10.440
system why is that there

00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:12.959
uh

00:13:12.959 --> 00:13:16.139
okay so what we have what can come up

00:13:16.139 --> 00:13:20.000
sorry about the dog we asked a question

00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.880
what is it like to be you

00:13:23.880 --> 00:13:27.000
and then it can what can follow is an

00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:31.560
adjective a noun a gesture or a paradox

00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:34.320
so I have it in a certain order but it

00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:38.220
can come in any kind of order right

00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:41.000
so

00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:44.760
if you get an adjective so someone says

00:13:44.760 --> 00:13:48.180
this is an actual uh session that I have

00:13:48.180 --> 00:13:51.000
simplified so what is it like to be you

00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:52.560
right now

00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:56.160
nervous or anxious this is the an

00:13:56.160 --> 00:13:58.680
adjective

00:13:58.680 --> 00:14:02.639
so then you say nervous or anxious like

00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:05.339
what that should say like what but I'm

00:14:05.339 --> 00:14:07.139
not gonna fix it

00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:09.720
see so

00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.139
so you see this is a property and then

00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:16.380
and then this person said a lizard

00:14:16.380 --> 00:14:18.540
so that's a noun

00:14:18.540 --> 00:14:21.300
and now when you have a noun you go back

00:14:21.300 --> 00:14:23.399
to the original question what is it like

00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:27.060
to be you what is it like to be a lizard

00:14:27.060 --> 00:14:29.820
okay so you're you're creating this

00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:33.260
empathic projection

00:14:33.660 --> 00:14:36.360
with the with the meaning that the

00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:38.639
person is making

00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.940
so then here I have which you can't see

00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:44.699
this is a gesture this is actually what

00:14:44.699 --> 00:14:46.680
happened what it was like to be a Liz

00:14:46.680 --> 00:14:48.959
what is it like to be a lizard I asked

00:14:48.959 --> 00:14:51.560
and she's like

00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:53.399
foreign

00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.399
like

00:14:58.680 --> 00:15:01.920
okay and so when you have a gesture you

00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:05.399
say and this you you know on these

00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.600
hands or in this case it's like in this

00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.800
tongue what is it like for that tongue

00:15:13.800 --> 00:15:15.959
and this person said restless and

00:15:15.959 --> 00:15:19.320
patient at the same time

00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:21.540
now this is a paradox so that was a

00:15:21.540 --> 00:15:24.360
gesture this is a paradox so then you

00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:28.040
say when the Paradox happens

00:15:28.040 --> 00:15:32.339
you say it again Restless impatient at

00:15:32.339 --> 00:15:33.720
the same time

00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.420
yes Restless impatient at the same time

00:15:36.420 --> 00:15:39.060
and then you then you have to separate

00:15:39.060 --> 00:15:41.820
them and you say let's take the Restless

00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:45.300
first and you start again it's an

00:15:45.300 --> 00:15:48.600
adjective what is this restlessness like

00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.699
and then somebody gets the energy in my

00:15:50.699 --> 00:15:53.220
body or it could say the restlessness

00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.779
like is like like

00:15:56.779 --> 00:16:00.240
like bulbs in the spring

00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.600
they're Restless to come forward and

00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.180
then I might say be more interested in

00:16:06.180 --> 00:16:10.199
this oh and this these hands what are

00:16:10.199 --> 00:16:13.980
they like so whatever seems to me to be

00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:17.040
the point of contact I just keep getting

00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:20.579
more and more curious

00:16:20.579 --> 00:16:22.079
uh

00:16:22.079 --> 00:16:25.519
so does that make sense

00:16:30.180 --> 00:16:33.800
and now the questioner the the

00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:38.279
modus operandus of the questioner is

00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.519
I want to ask in this way because I want

00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.920
to

00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:47.940
understand you from empathic projection

00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:52.100
so I want more and more

00:16:52.100 --> 00:16:57.320
synesthetic cues to what you are like

00:17:04.919 --> 00:17:07.319
yeah I could I could

00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.679
uh send you that

00:17:10.679 --> 00:17:13.199
so I mean this is an exercise it's not

00:17:13.199 --> 00:17:15.120
saying like you should walk around the

00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:17.459
street and use this for a formula to

00:17:17.459 --> 00:17:21.540
talk to people but it is a exercise you

00:17:21.540 --> 00:17:23.160
can do

00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.160
um you can do with our what is what is

00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.480
this

00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:29.460
like for you

00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:31.320
oh this line

00:17:31.320 --> 00:17:33.540
this you know what I'm saying I mean it

00:17:33.540 --> 00:17:37.700
there there it's a template for

00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.980
deepening both perception and

00:17:42.980 --> 00:17:46.080
synesthesia and you know there's this

00:17:46.080 --> 00:17:49.320
argument from Harry hunt that high the

00:17:49.320 --> 00:17:52.500
High spiritual experience and insight is

00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:55.320
dependent upon uh synesthesia versus

00:17:55.320 --> 00:17:59.400
synthetic complexity of thought right so

00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:03.260
uh that's what we're going with okay

00:18:03.419 --> 00:18:06.419
so Anna is it okay if we start with you

00:18:06.419 --> 00:18:08.460
yes sure okay

00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:11.120
so

00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.299
what am I gonna do this I think I will

00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:17.400
put him over here I've got to move some

00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:19.620
of these screens around so I can see you

00:18:19.620 --> 00:18:21.480
right there

00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.460
okay

00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:26.059
all right

00:18:27.419 --> 00:18:29.900
okay

00:18:30.020 --> 00:18:34.100
so let's take uh

00:18:34.919 --> 00:18:39.780
I'll take one minute to go from teaching

00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:43.200
conceptual mode to uh getting into this

00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.360
input with you

00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.200
foreign

00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:10.520
what is it like to be you right now

00:19:10.820 --> 00:19:14.880
alive and vitality

00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.460
it's a lot of reliveness in me

00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:20.820
and I feel really warm I'm fuzzy being

00:19:20.820 --> 00:19:23.160
here with you all like coming home in a

00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:24.000
way

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.620
and what is this fuzzy fuzzy like what

00:19:28.620 --> 00:19:31.620
it's fuzzy like a cotton ball not

00:19:31.620 --> 00:19:34.740
knowing or just seeing one patch and

00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:36.780
then but knowing that there's so many

00:19:36.780 --> 00:19:39.780
threats that make up that cotton pad

00:19:39.780 --> 00:19:43.679
what is it like to be a cotton ball

00:19:43.679 --> 00:19:45.660
hmm

00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:48.200
[Music]

00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.020
I can I can think of million things

00:19:52.020 --> 00:19:54.000
actually to be a cotton ball it's like

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.360
I'm flexing it's like what am I what is

00:19:57.360 --> 00:20:00.059
it in purpose of what it what can I make

00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:02.640
of it what is the purpose of the Cotton

00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.039
Bowl in a moment where I'm in but for

00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:06.179
now

00:20:06.179 --> 00:20:09.660
a Cotton Bowl represents maybe me and

00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:11.400
maybe us here together it's an

00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.220
awesomeness and this

00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:16.559
yes that

00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.700
what is it what is that like oh that's

00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:23.580
the flux that's what I had when I was

00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:25.380
swimming yesterday for two and a half

00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:28.080
hours and I was aware of the energy

00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:30.000
patterns that I was creating in the

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:31.740
water

00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:35.660
and what is it like to be watered

00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:38.039
a lot

00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.980
it's aliveness it's connecting it's

00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:42.600
inter beingness

00:20:42.600 --> 00:20:45.240
it's a movement it's shifting it's

00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:50.059
healing it's energy it's what is it not

00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.100
what is this

00:20:55.100 --> 00:20:58.220
[Music]

00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:01.080
micro awareness of the body

00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:03.780
to have a responsibility to be here and

00:21:03.780 --> 00:21:06.960
now in a way that is in service all

00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:11.340
in this body what is it like to be this

00:21:11.340 --> 00:21:13.220
body

00:21:13.220 --> 00:21:15.000
aliveness

00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.600
it's like fully everything I'm allowing

00:21:18.600 --> 00:21:19.860
and giving

00:21:19.860 --> 00:21:22.320
I'm giving permission for everything to

00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:23.520
be online

00:21:23.520 --> 00:21:25.679
whenever it's needed to be online I'm

00:21:25.679 --> 00:21:28.320
not I don't want to suppress anything

00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:30.539
I'm just fully me and I'm happy with

00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:32.100
that

00:21:32.100 --> 00:21:35.220
and the me you're happy with what is it

00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:37.500
like to be that me

00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:39.360
yes

00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:41.880
that's a small me

00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:46.159
what is it like to be small

00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.440
it's not allowing that's the Paradox

00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.720
here we go that's the Paradox sometimes

00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.480
by the constructs or seeing the the

00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:55.860
malware

00:21:55.860 --> 00:21:58.380
in the system and in myself

00:21:58.380 --> 00:22:02.100
is giving myself permission to become or

00:22:02.100 --> 00:22:05.280
be fully online instead of not being

00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:07.860
fully online so you have a paradox

00:22:07.860 --> 00:22:11.280
what's the two sides of the paradox

00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:14.580
it's being online or allowing or giving

00:22:14.580 --> 00:22:16.620
permission to be fully online and

00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:17.520
present

00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:20.580
and the place where you're not yeah

00:22:20.580 --> 00:22:23.039
where you're not fully online or not

00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:24.780
allowing myself to be fully online

00:22:24.780 --> 00:22:27.780
bicultural

00:22:28.020 --> 00:22:31.200
yeah malware and are those associated

00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:36.419
with the terms Malawi and small me and

00:22:36.419 --> 00:22:38.900
me

00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:42.000
um I don't know I don't have to be okay

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.179
so we have a paradox so we what so we're

00:22:45.179 --> 00:22:46.679
going to work with the two sides of the

00:22:46.679 --> 00:22:49.260
Paradox can we start with the one that

00:22:49.260 --> 00:22:51.600
doesn't have permission to be fully

00:22:51.600 --> 00:22:55.320
online yes what is it like to be the one

00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:57.720
that doesn't have permission to be fully

00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.220
online

00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:01.220
um

00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.500
there's also Paradox in that one

00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:12.059
because it's sometimes it's not

00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:14.280
um it's almost like knowing that when

00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:17.100
you come online in that space

00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:19.679
that it won't serve

00:23:19.679 --> 00:23:21.840
so you know that you have to stay small

00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:24.679
in that space

00:23:26.340 --> 00:23:28.620
like the the poppy in the field

00:23:28.620 --> 00:23:30.900
something like that your head will be

00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:31.919
chopped off

00:23:31.919 --> 00:23:35.720
and I know that will happen for sure

00:23:36.419 --> 00:23:38.640
and what's the other side of the Paradox

00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.860
inside of the Paradox the station like

00:23:40.860 --> 00:23:44.460
knowing yeah it's it's knowing that it's

00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:47.220
like but maybe that's funny because

00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:49.740
there is no distinction actually it's

00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:52.020
the flux it's this there is no

00:23:52.020 --> 00:23:54.960
distinction there is no either or it's

00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:58.200
the movement of it it's the flow when it

00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.780
just and this is what it's the flow of I

00:24:00.780 --> 00:24:03.299
can shift it into something else I I'm

00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:06.120
adjusting to it it's not that if I'm

00:24:06.120 --> 00:24:08.640
here than this or if I'm there than that

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.419
it's it's both

00:24:11.419 --> 00:24:16.200
can be present in that moment but I am

00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.860
choosing and I I am having that choice

00:24:19.860 --> 00:24:21.900
but what am I choosing

00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:26.400
what is it like to have to choose

00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:28.200
it's very powerful

00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.440
and simple and alive it's like an

00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.220
aliveness it's yeah

00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:37.500
thank you so much

00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:41.780
pleasure thank you Bonnie everyone

00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.500
so what are people noticing

00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:48.120
or Anna did you want to do you want to

00:24:48.120 --> 00:24:51.120
speak first about your experience

00:24:51.120 --> 00:24:52.799
this was amazing

00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:54.960
um being reflected back in the way and

00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.299
that you just grabbed some words and

00:24:57.299 --> 00:25:01.140
sentences that you were interested in

00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:03.900
and this is like seeing myself in you

00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:06.240
it's like the mirroring of it and and

00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:09.480
but also seeing everyone here holding

00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.720
the space and it's it's just magnificent

00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:15.360
and very powerful to do this it's like

00:25:15.360 --> 00:25:17.220
more of me is coming online therefore

00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:23.100
and I feel supported and loved and heard

00:25:23.100 --> 00:25:24.600
so thank you

00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:28.320
yeah that was a a brilliant uh noticing

00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:29.880
because

00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:33.480
I can only like I'm really being very

00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.539
much aware of what there's many things I

00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.120
could go to which is more Curious to me

00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:43.380
where is my energy going to so so of all

00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:45.900
the million different directions this

00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:48.779
could go it's also afforded and

00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:52.200
constrained about about this dyad right

00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:54.120
so

00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:55.620
um

00:25:55.620 --> 00:25:59.580
and uh

00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:01.980
but it's not like I'm trying to direct

00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.039
you I'm just just moving the water here

00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:06.900
and see what it does and moving there

00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:09.059
and seeing what it does and just just

00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:11.400
the attitude of curiosity and I try to

00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:13.320
be spontaneous on

00:26:13.320 --> 00:26:15.779
of the number of things like if I pay

00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:17.580
too much attention I see all these

00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:21.659
things I could ask I just try to say oh

00:26:21.659 --> 00:26:25.140
that that is interesting oh what like

00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:27.000
especially when you use words in a

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.919
different way like they're more

00:26:28.919 --> 00:26:31.200
interesting than

00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.000
things I might have heard before or

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.559
something like that so that's that's

00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:36.600
kind of the process that

00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:38.700
yeah and I was also interested in you

00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:40.200
actually when you were asking the

00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.720
questions I found myself on the trail of

00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.179
the reciprocity of the energy it's like

00:26:45.179 --> 00:26:47.340
it's like this wanted to emerge or

00:26:47.340 --> 00:26:49.140
something wanted to happen energetically

00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:51.900
but I I noticed that that is also a

00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.240
pattern so I stayed with the process

00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.419
which was very powerful but I see the

00:26:57.419 --> 00:27:00.600
potential of having those real real

00:27:00.600 --> 00:27:03.360
conversations on this level where you

00:27:03.360 --> 00:27:05.720
move where the energy wants to go

00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.580
and can you also see that there's no

00:27:08.580 --> 00:27:12.179
block or constraint I mean it is what it

00:27:12.179 --> 00:27:15.240
is it doesn't need to have more meaning

00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.460
than it does we're seeing meaning making

00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:19.559
in process and you said this many times

00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.679
it's just flux now I'm on to this now

00:27:22.679 --> 00:27:25.080
I'm on to that this is actually the

00:27:25.080 --> 00:27:26.179
where

00:27:26.179 --> 00:27:29.279
our minds work

00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.419
um and so uh

00:27:33.419 --> 00:27:35.760
and then at the end of the day something

00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:38.279
new was there's some new meaning that's

00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:43.080
made uh because of the participation so

00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:45.000
uh

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.000
yeah it's really it's really beautiful

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.419
and and

00:27:50.419 --> 00:27:53.580
also some people might have noticed that

00:27:53.580 --> 00:27:55.200
there was an energy flow like sometimes

00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.880
she was deeper and felt sense and

00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.039
sometimes she would say something and

00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:01.200
get curious about her own sentence

00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.860
construction and you get a little more

00:28:03.860 --> 00:28:07.980
uh abstract right could you see that

00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:13.020
and so again just noticing how the flux

00:28:13.020 --> 00:28:15.600
of energy in her

00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:16.799
um

00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.720
I can't remember at one point you said

00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:20.940
something and you were very curious you

00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:22.500
were curious about your own sentence

00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:24.120
structure so then

00:28:24.120 --> 00:28:26.400
it moved here for a little bit I tried

00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.100
to make it more of a gesture and just

00:28:29.100 --> 00:28:31.919
just these these

00:28:31.919 --> 00:28:34.919
this activity of being and aliveness

00:28:34.919 --> 00:28:37.320
that uh

00:28:37.320 --> 00:28:40.559
yeah that was demonstrated here

00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:42.000
did you want to say something else

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.059
before we open up to

00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:45.900
observations

00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:49.279
thank you Bonnie thanks everyone

00:28:50.790 --> 00:28:52.440
[Music]

00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.440
what did other people see yeah yeah I I

00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.860
love that you said Anna that you said

00:28:58.860 --> 00:29:01.320
how Bonnie asked what she was interested

00:29:01.320 --> 00:29:02.580
in and then how you built on that

00:29:02.580 --> 00:29:05.220
because what I was appreciating not

00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:07.740
until you said that is because in my

00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:10.980
mind as I'm the questioner I start to

00:29:10.980 --> 00:29:12.779
get this thing that I have to pick the

00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:14.760
right I have to pick the right adjective

00:29:14.760 --> 00:29:16.320
or I have to put the right noun of

00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:17.820
everything they just said I have to

00:29:17.820 --> 00:29:20.460
watch the right thing versus there's no

00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:22.679
right thing there's no right thing and

00:29:22.679 --> 00:29:25.200
the agency of the listener to say what

00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.140
whatever feels most interesting to me

00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:30.899
because there is no right or wrong thing

00:29:30.899 --> 00:29:33.240
there's a million possibilities here so

00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.240
just pull on the thread that you as the

00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:39.120
questioner are intrigued by and it will

00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:41.460
go somewhere and it doesn't matter where

00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:45.240
it goes so I'm I'm really appreciating

00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.260
that compared to the last time where I

00:29:49.260 --> 00:29:52.260
felt this pressure to I got to make sure

00:29:52.260 --> 00:29:54.120
that I'm listening closely enough to

00:29:54.120 --> 00:29:55.919
pick the right thing and

00:29:55.919 --> 00:29:58.620
yeah I mean it it was fine and it worked

00:29:58.620 --> 00:30:00.299
last time but this is just more

00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:02.220
liberating yeah

00:30:02.220 --> 00:30:04.799
yeah there is a little technique like I

00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.080
was watching what was interesting to me

00:30:07.080 --> 00:30:09.240
but I was also noting whether I was

00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:11.820
working with an adjective or a noun

00:30:11.820 --> 00:30:14.880
because when you get a noun you shift

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:18.059
the person from thinking about what it's

00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:20.399
like to be me to what it's like to be a

00:30:20.399 --> 00:30:22.620
cotton ball

00:30:22.620 --> 00:30:25.679
because why did that come up you know

00:30:25.679 --> 00:30:28.440
and then what's her relationship what

00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:30.500
what's happening in her

00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:33.179
synesthesia about being a cotton ball is

00:30:33.179 --> 00:30:36.600
it because it's sticky in your mouth is

00:30:36.600 --> 00:30:38.279
it because it's

00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.580
soft and cuddly like what is it about it

00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:44.399
and and so

00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:46.460
um

00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:52.620
yeah and so some of the formula is

00:30:52.620 --> 00:30:54.299
is

00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:57.179
yeah so it doesn't matter what your key

00:30:57.179 --> 00:30:59.100
into but

00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:01.559
I don't know for me I really like when

00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.600
nouns come up because

00:31:03.600 --> 00:31:05.700
then people aren't like what is it like

00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:08.760
to be me which can be kind of nervous

00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:10.380
self

00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:13.440
awareness to well you use the word

00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:15.360
cotton ball

00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:17.580
so what is it like

00:31:17.580 --> 00:31:21.120
for you for the cotton ball and and so

00:31:21.120 --> 00:31:23.399
that's that's just yeah it doesn't

00:31:23.399 --> 00:31:25.440
matter what you key into but some of the

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.260
ways you respond to whether it's an

00:31:28.260 --> 00:31:31.200
adjective a gesture or a noun

00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.600
um I tried to show many of them

00:31:33.600 --> 00:31:36.360
I mean it was a demo so I tried to like

00:31:36.360 --> 00:31:39.960
move from gesture to noun to

00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.659
um yeah but some of that's in play some

00:31:42.659 --> 00:31:46.880
of the methodologies in play that way

00:31:49.860 --> 00:31:53.100
I've uh I did a terrible time asking Liz

00:31:53.100 --> 00:31:55.919
questions because I didn't get that uh

00:31:55.919 --> 00:31:57.720
adjectives or the noun principles

00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.480
although I heard it in plain English it

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.820
seems like I have to uh listen the

00:32:02.820 --> 00:32:04.500
second time to really get some of this

00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:06.539
stuff and maybe I had bad problems in

00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:09.059
schooling just not paying attention and

00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:11.340
I I get it through studying but that's

00:32:11.340 --> 00:32:13.919
another story but I love what you're

00:32:13.919 --> 00:32:16.620
doing right now but I have to leave in

00:32:16.620 --> 00:32:18.840
about 30 minutes so I don't know once

00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:20.760
you get involved I don't know I might be

00:32:20.760 --> 00:32:22.740
part of a threesome that might have to

00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:23.700
uh

00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.039
uh I'll have to leave because I have a

00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:27.360
session coming up

00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:30.720
but uh that's very good this is very

00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.419
good and Anna did a great job

00:32:33.419 --> 00:32:35.820
and Liz did a great job with Phoebe and

00:32:35.820 --> 00:32:37.380
Phoebe asked me a lot of great questions

00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.140
so I really learned a lot about myself

00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:43.380
so um anyway I really blew it I know

00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:46.380
that but I might do a better job as this

00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:49.940
week goes on so thank you all

00:32:57.919 --> 00:33:02.299
so do you want to do a demo John

00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:14.179
okay sir okay

00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:21.779
I'm gonna put you up there no you're way

00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:24.200
down there

00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:28.039
okay

00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:40.019
so John if I asked you what is it like

00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:41.580
to be you

00:33:41.580 --> 00:33:44.539
right now

00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:48.480
right now I'm on top of my

00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.480
uh program getting everything

00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.779
accomplished okay so that doesn't tell

00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:57.419
me anything about what is it like to be

00:33:57.419 --> 00:33:59.640
you I'm trying to figure out what it is

00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:03.299
like to be that's where I go

00:34:03.299 --> 00:34:04.080
um

00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:06.240
it's like um

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.379
free but in a controlling way okay free

00:34:10.379 --> 00:34:12.960
and control at the same time that's kind

00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.320
of a paradox right

00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:18.540
let's work with control first is that

00:34:18.540 --> 00:34:20.720
okay

00:34:21.359 --> 00:34:25.740
what is it like for you to be with this

00:34:25.740 --> 00:34:27.839
control

00:34:27.839 --> 00:34:32.220
it's like busy but it's a passion

00:34:32.220 --> 00:34:35.460
but what is it like to be with this

00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:37.820
control

00:34:38.700 --> 00:34:41.280
what does it feel like to be with this

00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:43.379
control

00:34:43.379 --> 00:34:46.320
I want to be able to feel what you feel

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:50.060
when you say the word control

00:34:50.820 --> 00:34:53.060
um

00:34:53.580 --> 00:34:55.080
I don't know

00:34:55.080 --> 00:34:57.900
you don't know I just do it according to

00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:00.359
the needs of my uh

00:35:00.359 --> 00:35:03.780
work day like I'm in a work day so uh

00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:06.420
plus I'm taking care of my dog and um

00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:09.000
doing a multi-teaching two yoga classes

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.880
today getting what does it feel like to

00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:15.960
be you know always be in a work day

00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:17.880
uh tedious

00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.700
tedious what does it feel like to be

00:35:20.700 --> 00:35:22.740
tedious

00:35:22.740 --> 00:35:26.240
uh pressured

00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:29.220
unless

00:35:29.220 --> 00:35:32.220
like I am today very happy to do it and

00:35:32.220 --> 00:35:35.280
with energy ah so you're pressured and

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:37.800
happy to be pressured at the same time

00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:41.480
that's kind of a paradox

00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:46.160
what does it feel like to be happy

00:35:46.339 --> 00:35:48.060
oh

00:35:48.060 --> 00:35:51.320
uh with the flow

00:35:52.859 --> 00:35:55.440
let's see I want to understand what it

00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.079
feels like for you to be happy and so

00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:00.720
you say with the flow that doesn't help

00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:03.839
me understand what it feels like for you

00:36:03.839 --> 00:36:06.500
to be happy

00:36:09.180 --> 00:36:12.140
compatible

00:36:12.359 --> 00:36:15.240
what does it feel like when you feel

00:36:15.240 --> 00:36:17.839
compatible

00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:22.800
um like a dog working in observer

00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.480
working in the world

00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.880
and this dog who works in the world what

00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.140
does it feel like to be this dog

00:36:30.140 --> 00:36:32.760
it feels like uh

00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:36.060
I'm happy to be to

00:36:36.060 --> 00:36:36.720
um

00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:39.420
interact and enjoy

00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:44.000
so this dog interacts and enjoys

00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:48.839
right this dog interacts enjoys what

00:36:48.839 --> 00:36:52.640
else does it feel like to be this dog

00:36:54.060 --> 00:36:56.040
um

00:36:56.040 --> 00:36:57.839
in the moment

00:36:57.839 --> 00:36:59.900
um

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.440
and also uh

00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:07.079
comical I like to

00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:09.480
add comedy to the situation

00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:11.760
okay so the dog

00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:14.640
feels like the dog is comical

00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:17.099
what is this comical

00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:18.839
for a dog

00:37:18.839 --> 00:37:23.040
oh just happy tail wagging whether or

00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:24.359
not you know what you're wagging about

00:37:24.359 --> 00:37:27.300
and this in this gesture what does it

00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:31.200
feel like to do this gesture there's

00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:34.500
happiness there's happiness right so

00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:37.440
that I think is helped me feel like what

00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.960
your happiness is this gesture that a

00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.440
dog makes

00:37:42.680 --> 00:37:45.660
so that was one side of your Paradox can

00:37:45.660 --> 00:37:48.920
we go back to the other side of control

00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:54.260
what does it feel like this control

00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:00.780
it feels like an achieving goals goals

00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:03.359
goals what are these goals what it was

00:38:03.359 --> 00:38:06.839
it what do these goals feel like

00:38:06.839 --> 00:38:11.119
feels like uh progress to

00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:14.280
um

00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:17.420
to prepare for

00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:20.240
um

00:38:20.520 --> 00:38:26.880
People's Health and my vitality and

00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.579
hmm

00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:33.000
and what does this prepare

00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.500
feel like

00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:36.660
prepare

00:38:36.660 --> 00:38:38.579
to

00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:41.940
be prepared for spontaneous right action

00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:44.720
even though

00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:49.740
we have another Paradox yeah what is it

00:38:49.740 --> 00:38:52.740
to be prepared take the spontaneous

00:38:52.740 --> 00:38:56.040
right action out of it right now

00:38:56.040 --> 00:38:59.839
uh to have um

00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:04.160
all my ducks lined up

00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:08.160
and these ducks when they're lined up

00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:10.140
what does it feel like to be a duck

00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:11.339
lined up

00:39:11.339 --> 00:39:14.940
like the ocean flowing ah get the ocean

00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:16.740
flowing

00:39:16.740 --> 00:39:19.400
awesome

00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:26.520
and when the ocean flows

00:39:26.520 --> 00:39:30.780
what is it like to be ocean flowing

00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.359
oh

00:39:33.359 --> 00:39:36.119
uh with the

00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.780
the the pull of the of the Moon let's

00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:41.040
say

00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:44.119
the tides

00:39:44.520 --> 00:39:48.359
and this Moon that pulls what is it like

00:39:48.359 --> 00:39:50.900
pulled

00:39:51.180 --> 00:39:54.320
it's like to be

00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:58.160
um

00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.060
the Moon that calls

00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:06.240
uh it's just

00:40:06.240 --> 00:40:11.180
happy to be there just to get reactions

00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:18.500
thank you

00:40:19.700 --> 00:40:22.020
to be in the right spot at the right

00:40:22.020 --> 00:40:24.300
time to raise the tides and lower the

00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:27.060
tides and and the big everything you

00:40:27.060 --> 00:40:31.740
need to do to maintain sucks

00:40:32.040 --> 00:40:34.859
reactor flux

00:40:34.859 --> 00:40:39.140
I don't know but this is interesting

00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:43.640
thank you

00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:48.560
thank you

00:40:56.640 --> 00:41:01.640
if you wanna reflect on that John

00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:04.320
um

00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.740
it's having me be put on the spot to

00:41:07.740 --> 00:41:09.960
really begin to understand

00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:14.240
uh how and why I do things

00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:17.700
um

00:41:17.700 --> 00:41:19.140
to learn

00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:22.280
rather than just

00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:26.940
uh be

00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:29.940
an achiever see talk about the Enneagram

00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:31.619
see I'm number two on the Enneagram so

00:41:31.619 --> 00:41:33.599
I'm stuck in that route

00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:36.240
a pleaser and trying to help in the

00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:38.579
situations so I'm trying to become

00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:41.359
better at that

00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:54.980
and I don't need to be

00:42:00.180 --> 00:42:02.640
what I like about your class now is

00:42:02.640 --> 00:42:05.700
we're learning about the body and all of

00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:07.500
this and next week we're going to build

00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:09.119
community next year we're going to build

00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:11.220
communities and that's where I want to

00:42:11.220 --> 00:42:12.119
go

00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.240
so this is all leading to the Future and

00:42:15.240 --> 00:42:18.359
the positive outcome of

00:42:18.359 --> 00:42:21.300
science in the hereafter

00:42:21.300 --> 00:42:24.000
can I get this impression from my

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.700
experience of the happy dog that's busy

00:42:26.700 --> 00:42:29.160
busy busy but loves his work like a

00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:31.320
border collie or something like these

00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.380
dogs that just are

00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:37.140
they're they're endlessly attending to

00:42:37.140 --> 00:42:40.020
things but if you look at them you have

00:42:40.020 --> 00:42:42.060
to admit that they're happy doing it so

00:42:42.060 --> 00:42:47.579
that was my kind of experience with that

00:42:47.579 --> 00:42:49.440
because I'm not saying it's right or

00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.339
wrong I'm just saying

00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:58.500
and that's the what I want to keep going

00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:01.200
because I often get depressed about it

00:43:01.200 --> 00:43:03.720
all but right now I'm just realizing

00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:07.079
with this coursework that just be in the

00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:08.040
moment

00:43:08.040 --> 00:43:11.160
and uh and also I've been able to clear

00:43:11.160 --> 00:43:12.900
it clean up a lot of my mess at home so

00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:15.660
it's freed up a lot of space in me so I

00:43:15.660 --> 00:43:18.560
have to keep that going

00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.020
thank you

00:43:24.020 --> 00:43:28.680
thank you all for being part of this

00:43:28.680 --> 00:43:33.140
part of the John wake-up call

00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:39.359
okay so I'm going to put you into John I

00:43:39.359 --> 00:43:40.440
know you have to go I'm going to leave

00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:42.420
you out of the breakout room

00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:46.920
I'm gonna put uh you into dyads

00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.020
and

00:43:49.020 --> 00:43:52.079
um you're going to have

00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:57.980
um let's see it's seven o'clock uh

00:43:58.099 --> 00:44:01.920
you're gonna have 40 minutes to practice

00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:04.500
going back and forth and talk about the

00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:07.380
methodology you know I mean in any way

00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:10.680
shape or form that you can I've already

00:44:10.680 --> 00:44:12.660
done Anna

00:44:12.660 --> 00:44:14.220
um but

00:44:14.220 --> 00:44:16.380
um it'd be interesting for someone else

00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:20.280
to uh go ahead and

00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.680
you know unfortunately you have to let

00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:26.040
someone else ask you also and you can go

00:44:26.040 --> 00:44:27.780
in another Direction and then when we

00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:29.220
come back

00:44:29.220 --> 00:44:30.780
um there's actually some interesting

00:44:30.780 --> 00:44:33.780
teaching points about this but just play

00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:36.060
with the methodology and if it gets

00:44:36.060 --> 00:44:38.700
 up and you laugh and you don't

00:44:38.700 --> 00:44:40.260
know what you're doing

00:44:40.260 --> 00:44:46.319
um yeah just try to understand uh

00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:50.400
to methodology a little a little more

00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:53.040
um because what might we might do is if

00:44:53.040 --> 00:44:55.380
some of you show up next time and you

00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:58.079
feel pretty good about it then

00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:00.060
um you might want to demo with with

00:45:00.060 --> 00:45:02.040
someone else too that might be kind of

00:45:02.040 --> 00:45:04.079
interesting does that make sense

00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:09.300
so like just today try to work more last

00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:12.119
time we worked more in empathic

00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:14.400
projection but if you're the questioner

00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:16.619
try to work more a little more at the

00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:20.280
methodology and see if it makes makes a

00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:21.720
difference

00:45:21.720 --> 00:45:22.319
um

00:45:22.319 --> 00:45:25.200
the person that's being asked just

00:45:25.200 --> 00:45:29.339
really uh worked with the felt sense try

00:45:29.339 --> 00:45:31.020
to hold up what is it like to be a

00:45:31.020 --> 00:45:34.440
cotton ball try to really hold on to

00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:36.300
maybe you don't know why you said that

00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:38.160
but try to really like

00:45:38.160 --> 00:45:41.339
uh okay now I'm a cotton ball what is it

00:45:41.339 --> 00:45:44.040
like to be a cotton ball you know try to

00:45:44.040 --> 00:45:46.800
really enter syn aesthetically and

00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.339
imaginate imaginatively into what you

00:45:50.339 --> 00:45:52.560
what you might have offered kind of off

00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:54.480
the cuff maybe you don't even know why

00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.540
you've said that does that make sense

00:45:57.540 --> 00:45:58.859
okay

00:45:58.859 --> 00:46:03.020
so breakout rooms

00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:08.359
uh

00:46:09.160 --> 00:46:27.750
[Music]

00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:31.339
okay

00:46:32.220 --> 00:46:34.859
and John you're here with me until you

00:46:34.859 --> 00:46:38.160
have to go so we can chat

00:46:38.160 --> 00:46:40.140
okay I will

00:46:40.140 --> 00:46:44.099
I'll let you have a break too but uh

00:46:44.099 --> 00:46:46.140
thanks for doing that with me because

00:46:46.140 --> 00:46:48.960
then I got the opportunity to

00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:51.720
experience it yeah because otherwise I

00:46:51.720 --> 00:46:53.819
wouldn't have

00:46:53.819 --> 00:46:56.280
uh let's see

00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.220
okay I I forgot to set the time but

00:46:59.220 --> 00:47:01.859
that's okay 24 minutes is okay I got a

00:47:01.859 --> 00:47:04.440
broadcast to them and tell them

00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:07.760
all the broadcast

00:47:32.220 --> 00:47:35.060
oops

00:47:36.900 --> 00:47:40.079
it's okay it's so hard to be like you

00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:42.660
know spontaneous and hang out and then

00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:45.000
cover all these bases and I always make

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.480
these mistakes like oh yeah

00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:50.160
like you know what I'm saying like the

00:47:50.160 --> 00:47:53.160
two the two parts of your brain that are

00:47:53.160 --> 00:47:55.700
like that and you have this too like

00:47:55.700 --> 00:47:59.400
and then the one that wants to just live

00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:02.160
and stuff it's very hard to do both of

00:48:02.160 --> 00:48:04.079
them at the same time

00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:07.500
yeah and you do amazingly well at a time

00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:10.020
don't know how you do it all

00:48:10.020 --> 00:48:12.359
uh

00:48:12.359 --> 00:48:15.359
Alicia with me I'm just totally

00:48:15.359 --> 00:48:18.300
structured all the time

00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:18.960
um

00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.660
and my weekends are getting ready for

00:48:21.660 --> 00:48:24.720
a work week it's like you already know

00:48:24.720 --> 00:48:26.640
my business

00:48:26.640 --> 00:48:29.280
and this is the I'm trying to make this

00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:31.760
year

00:48:32.819 --> 00:48:35.220
the finalizing all the loose ends with

00:48:35.220 --> 00:48:39.180
my old business as my

00:48:39.180 --> 00:48:41.520
integrating in with uh the Elder

00:48:41.520 --> 00:48:43.859
Millennials here to take the business on

00:48:43.859 --> 00:48:45.599
and

00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:48.060
um next year I want to have a little

00:48:48.060 --> 00:48:50.359
more freedom to uh

00:48:50.359 --> 00:48:53.520
as everything solidifies

00:48:53.520 --> 00:48:56.780
and that's why I think synchronistically

00:48:56.780 --> 00:49:00.960
what you said about building communities

00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:02.579
um I'm still going to need to be tied

00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:05.700
here but I think I'll have freedom too

00:49:05.700 --> 00:49:08.940
to uh move about I mean I have the same

00:49:08.940 --> 00:49:12.060
thing like I can't travel really and I

00:49:12.060 --> 00:49:14.579
get a lot of invitations but

00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:18.240
I'm so nested in and invested in the

00:49:18.240 --> 00:49:21.240
farm and the animals and

00:49:21.240 --> 00:49:24.920
and you and and

00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:27.660
yeah

00:49:27.660 --> 00:49:30.480
but that's okay too you know that's like

00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.940
that's that's like you can't have the

00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.099
problem is we

00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:38.040
you only have one life to live right you

00:49:38.040 --> 00:49:39.420
only like

00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:40.800
and it

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:43.079
and I think sometimes if I could come

00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:44.940
back okay when you think about coming

00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:47.760
back and living another life that's cool

00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.859
if I could remember that I already lived

00:49:49.859 --> 00:49:51.359
this life then I would choose another

00:49:51.359 --> 00:49:53.400
one because I like okay I already had

00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:55.140
chocolate ice cream now I want to have

00:49:55.140 --> 00:49:57.720
strawberry you know

00:49:57.720 --> 00:49:59.640
um but

00:49:59.640 --> 00:50:02.339
it's not like if I only had one life to

00:50:02.339 --> 00:50:03.900
live again I would do something

00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:08.339
different it would only yeah so this is

00:50:08.339 --> 00:50:10.700
the constraints of being a

00:50:10.700 --> 00:50:14.460
space-time person you're in space in a

00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:17.579
certain Space in Time right so

00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:23.280
yeah but I'm my in my 70s I'm

00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:26.839
willing to find more trying to

00:50:26.839 --> 00:50:30.599
move about the planet a little more but

00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:33.420
I still need to ground myself here for

00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:35.599
sure

00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:39.780
but I I think I hear my uh client

00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:42.000
outside yeah

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.300
all right well enjoy your session

00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:47.700
yeah I know it was fun yeah that was fun

00:50:47.700 --> 00:50:49.559
working with you thank you so much for

00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:51.780
volunteering I kind of I kind of made

00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:53.160
you volunteer

00:50:53.160 --> 00:50:55.980
you're well I could have hidden my shell

00:50:55.980 --> 00:50:58.079
that's why I don't talking in public

00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:02.480
it's just that I don't like I say I I

00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:05.220
first time through I don't grasp all the

00:51:05.220 --> 00:51:07.319
information yeah and I really think it's

00:51:07.319 --> 00:51:10.380
a bad habit from school I I was kind of

00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:13.260
the cut up in class you know slapped

00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:16.380
around by Brother Keel and a ruler

00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:18.180
broken over my wrist by Sister Mary

00:51:18.180 --> 00:51:19.520
Catherine

00:51:19.520 --> 00:51:22.079
I was raised all the way Catholic and

00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.440
yeah me too the nuns are the worst yeah

00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.200
yeah they are

00:51:28.200 --> 00:51:30.980
but thank you

00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:33.540
and I'm so glad you have done all of

00:51:33.540 --> 00:51:35.880
this because uh it's making me a real

00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.220
human being

00:51:38.220 --> 00:51:41.099
rather than a claustrophobic

00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:43.819
old guy

00:51:44.819 --> 00:51:46.140
okay

00:51:46.140 --> 00:51:49.700
I'm gonna I'm gonna just uh

00:51:49.700 --> 00:51:53.760
uh I'm gonna just be there so that I'll

00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:55.940
pick up on stuff okay

00:51:55.940 --> 00:51:58.380
I might be done by the time the class

00:51:58.380 --> 00:52:01.319
ends and I'm gonna pause the recording

00:52:01.319 --> 00:52:02.099
so

00:52:02.099 --> 00:52:05.900
okay thank you

00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:11.660
well I see

00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.220
last year

00:52:14.220 --> 00:52:18.180
so we can wait till next time

00:52:18.180 --> 00:52:21.920
sure okay so you asked absolutely right

00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:25.920
like there's just this Joy of relating

00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:28.200
to one thing and the next thing and the

00:52:28.200 --> 00:52:30.780
next thing and we notice if you did you

00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:33.180
notice that when you observed the demos

00:52:33.180 --> 00:52:35.400
like

00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.280
how does one thing go how does cotton go

00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:42.559
from cotton to Ocean to like

00:52:44.640 --> 00:52:46.920
they're just eruptions into

00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:50.160
Consciousness right so then we're going

00:52:50.160 --> 00:52:52.500
to get into like propositional thinking

00:52:52.500 --> 00:52:55.140
representational thinking how we thread

00:52:55.140 --> 00:52:57.900
the narratives together but Rey was

00:52:57.900 --> 00:53:00.660
exactly right like this kind of

00:53:00.660 --> 00:53:02.339
questioning

00:53:02.339 --> 00:53:05.819
shows you that fundamentally

00:53:05.819 --> 00:53:10.579
your felt sense is not building a story

00:53:13.859 --> 00:53:16.920
it has like a vibration in your and then

00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:20.579
oh well let me serve you cotton oh let

00:53:20.579 --> 00:53:22.319
me serve you a happy dog

00:53:22.319 --> 00:53:25.880
let me serve you this

00:53:28.200 --> 00:53:32.099
now think about having an argument with

00:53:32.099 --> 00:53:33.359
someone

00:53:33.359 --> 00:53:37.640
and you say this is how I feel

00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:42.079
is that how you feel well

00:53:42.839 --> 00:53:44.520
that's just a story you're throwing at

00:53:44.520 --> 00:53:45.420
them

00:53:45.420 --> 00:53:48.059
it's not possible you can't feel that

00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:52.020
way that's not how feeling works

00:53:52.020 --> 00:53:55.140
that's not how feeling light works

00:53:55.140 --> 00:53:57.119
now on the other hand you know exactly

00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:00.420
what it feels like to be you

00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:03.420
but these conversations you get into

00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:05.760
these arguments it's not how feeling

00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:09.300
like it is to be your works

00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:12.200
it's not possible

00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:25.619
nor is it possible when you project onto

00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:27.720
other people because we just saw and

00:54:27.720 --> 00:54:30.599
feel people say well what it feels like

00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:33.000
to be you it's just like

00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:36.000
foreign

00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:43.040
does that make sense Anna

00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:44.160
yeah

00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:45.500
um

00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:50.520
when I was asking Ray the questions

00:54:50.520 --> 00:54:54.319
I had some moments where I actually

00:54:54.319 --> 00:54:57.240
felt the distinction of feeling and

00:54:57.240 --> 00:54:58.859
liking in my body

00:54:58.859 --> 00:55:01.800
and almost seeing Oh am I going up am I

00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:04.020
coming from here to ask that question or

00:55:04.020 --> 00:55:06.960
am I coming from the energy down below

00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.480
and it's and feeling that distinction

00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:11.339
actually stopped me from asking that

00:55:11.339 --> 00:55:13.079
question

00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:15.780
and not uh just being silent it's almost

00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:18.680
like oh can I remember again

00:55:18.680 --> 00:55:22.200
what is this in purpose of

00:55:22.200 --> 00:55:23.579
and

00:55:23.579 --> 00:55:27.180
and asking the question anyway from here

00:55:27.180 --> 00:55:30.420
it's it's a different it's blocking the

00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:32.339
energy straight away it's stopping it

00:55:32.339 --> 00:55:34.859
it's stopping that flow to go into that

00:55:34.859 --> 00:55:36.480
flux

00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:40.400
and I felt really

00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:43.800
insightful to be in that space and and

00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:48.359
vulnerable and amazing to have

00:55:48.359 --> 00:55:51.059
this capacity to do that with another

00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:52.559
human being

00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:54.900
and imagining how wonderful it could be

00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:58.819
to do it with a whole group of people

00:56:00.180 --> 00:56:02.400
yeah

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:04.319
and there's no

00:56:04.319 --> 00:56:06.780
uh there's nothing wrong with going way

00:56:06.780 --> 00:56:10.319
up here it it but it's it creates

00:56:10.319 --> 00:56:13.500
imaginative reality that could be like

00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:16.440
what I call High play it's like if you

00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:18.420
and Ray were asking this and then you

00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:20.520
had paint and you started painting in

00:56:20.520 --> 00:56:22.260
this and that and then oh look what we

00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:23.880
created

00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:26.339
but that is a product

00:56:26.339 --> 00:56:30.359
of this deeper knowing it's not a

00:56:30.359 --> 00:56:32.460
representation of it

00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:34.559
and when we start working with

00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:38.280
philosophical ideas or stories we think

00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.859
it's the representation of something

00:56:40.859 --> 00:56:45.780
versus the product of something

00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:49.859
does that make sense like yeah

00:56:49.859 --> 00:56:52.020
um that distinction sorry to

00:56:52.020 --> 00:56:54.180
interrupting that distinction it seems

00:56:54.180 --> 00:56:57.300
simple and it but it's it's so critical

00:56:57.300 --> 00:56:58.859
it's like

00:56:58.859 --> 00:57:02.160
yeah wow yeah it's easy for us to see

00:57:02.160 --> 00:57:04.740
that painting is a product of some kind

00:57:04.740 --> 00:57:06.480
of inspiration

00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:09.540
but then knowing or Theory or

00:57:09.540 --> 00:57:13.500
propositionals we think represents

00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:16.319
something when it's just a different

00:57:16.319 --> 00:57:20.220
mode of creativity that's a product

00:57:20.220 --> 00:57:23.400
so this is like Wilbur's problem he

00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:26.460
created a product of his own inspiration

00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:30.000
and then he thought that represented

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:35.780
mind and reality versus it was a product

00:57:35.819 --> 00:57:39.240
so aesthetic judgment for we get

00:57:39.240 --> 00:57:41.579
confused with the products of mental

00:57:41.579 --> 00:57:43.920
activity

00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:46.020
they're very imaginative doesn't mean

00:57:46.020 --> 00:57:48.839
that they're like fantasy

00:57:48.839 --> 00:57:51.420
when I ask what is it like and she says

00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:53.700
cotton that doesn't mean it's not

00:57:53.700 --> 00:57:57.559
attached to the felt sense

00:57:58.020 --> 00:58:00.500
but then we don't go and say oh my God

00:58:00.500 --> 00:58:04.280
reality is cotton

00:58:22.740 --> 00:58:24.720
this is gonna

00:58:24.720 --> 00:58:27.180
be probably one of the stupidest

00:58:27.180 --> 00:58:29.579
questions I've ever asked but I'm

00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:32.220
curious what you will say in response to

00:58:32.220 --> 00:58:36.240
it what is the difference between a

00:58:36.240 --> 00:58:39.680
product and a representation

00:58:40.740 --> 00:58:45.540
no that's a really good question so

00:58:45.540 --> 00:58:47.339
um

00:58:47.339 --> 00:58:51.059
if I'm inspired

00:58:51.420 --> 00:58:53.040
to

00:58:53.040 --> 00:58:55.760
I have some energy in me and I'm

00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:58.980
inspired to build a fence

00:58:58.980 --> 00:59:02.099
a beautiful fence

00:59:02.099 --> 00:59:06.180
that's a product of my energy and

00:59:06.180 --> 00:59:09.299
enthusiasm in my imagination

00:59:09.299 --> 00:59:12.180
but then I don't say that represents who

00:59:12.180 --> 00:59:14.180
I who I am

00:59:14.180 --> 00:59:17.220
so but then when if I'm a philosopher

00:59:17.220 --> 00:59:19.140
and I have this inspiration and I create

00:59:19.140 --> 00:59:20.880
like a meta Theory

00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:22.980
then I look at it and like oh that's

00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:26.220
reality that's who I am

00:59:26.220 --> 00:59:29.160
when the mind creates a product it it

00:59:29.160 --> 00:59:32.700
creates a product in the form of it's as

00:59:32.700 --> 00:59:33.900
if

00:59:33.900 --> 00:59:36.619
that's

00:59:36.619 --> 00:59:40.799
holy representative of who I am defense

00:59:40.799 --> 00:59:43.380
is not wholly representative of I am

00:59:43.380 --> 00:59:47.880
it's a product of a certain impulse

00:59:48.180 --> 00:59:50.280
so

00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:53.460
you can create a theory

00:59:53.460 --> 00:59:56.760
a theory of it's very

00:59:56.760 --> 01:00:00.960
complex the theory of Who We Are

01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:04.440
is a product of an Impulse to imagine a

01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:06.540
theory of Who We Are

01:00:06.540 --> 01:00:09.059
then I look at the theory I'm like well

01:00:09.059 --> 01:00:11.520
that's who we are

01:00:11.520 --> 01:00:13.680
but I would never take a painting and

01:00:13.680 --> 01:00:17.579
say that's who we are humans are

01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:20.400
I would see the painting as a product of

01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:24.859
a person's impulse to create something

01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:30.119
in the same way that we can get sucked

01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:33.359
into think a theory of reality is

01:00:33.359 --> 01:00:36.359
reality we would never get sucked into

01:00:36.359 --> 01:00:39.299
think this one painting represents all

01:00:39.299 --> 01:00:41.960
of reality

01:00:42.839 --> 01:00:44.940
you see the difference

01:00:44.940 --> 01:00:46.920
I know she doesn't see the difference

01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:49.859
I'm struggling here

01:00:49.859 --> 01:00:52.559
you're muted

01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:56.280
I'm having a thought like are you

01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.440
this may be like

01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:01.319
off topic I'm not sure but it if it

01:01:01.319 --> 01:01:03.540
feels like you're saying it is

01:01:03.540 --> 01:01:05.520
impossible

01:01:05.520 --> 01:01:10.680
to have an accurate representation

01:01:10.680 --> 01:01:12.900
of the wholeness

01:01:12.900 --> 01:01:14.819
of anything

01:01:14.819 --> 01:01:16.200
because

01:01:16.200 --> 01:01:19.559
it's it's impossible right because every

01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:23.819
representation is a partial

01:01:23.819 --> 01:01:28.500
but we understand this in terms of Art

01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:31.500
we wouldn't say this Picasso transcends

01:01:31.500 --> 01:01:34.619
and includes all art

01:01:34.619 --> 01:01:37.880
but we would say this scientific theory

01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:41.880
transcends includes all others it's it's

01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.599
real

01:01:45.240 --> 01:01:48.980
and what I'm saying is that they're all

01:01:48.980 --> 01:01:51.540
impulses out of

01:01:51.540 --> 01:01:53.700
you know some of our Collective impulses

01:01:53.700 --> 01:01:55.740
so they're bigger but

01:01:55.740 --> 01:01:58.140
like like

01:01:58.140 --> 01:02:02.220
their Creations just like our memories

01:02:02.220 --> 01:02:04.740
our imaginative creations

01:02:04.740 --> 01:02:06.900
and they

01:02:06.900 --> 01:02:10.859
they reflect some meaning back to us

01:02:10.859 --> 01:02:13.260
and when art reflects some meaning back

01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:15.720
to us we're like wow that's a real

01:02:15.720 --> 01:02:18.299
powerful reflection of meaning back to

01:02:18.299 --> 01:02:20.460
me but when a theory reflects meaning

01:02:20.460 --> 01:02:22.859
back to us we say oh that's the way it

01:02:22.859 --> 01:02:25.040
is

01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:28.319
because the mind constructs propositions

01:02:28.319 --> 01:02:30.240
as if

01:02:30.240 --> 01:02:33.540
it was totalizing as if it captured the

01:02:33.540 --> 01:02:36.540
total totality

01:02:36.540 --> 01:02:39.059
and that's just the way

01:02:39.059 --> 01:02:43.280
and the mind makes propositions

01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:48.119
all men are created equal

01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:53.040
so it sounds like that's a completely

01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:55.859
so if that was a painting all men are

01:02:55.859 --> 01:02:58.799
created equal you'd be like yeah that's

01:02:58.799 --> 01:03:01.619
a deep insight

01:03:01.619 --> 01:03:04.200
but then maybe all men are not created

01:03:04.200 --> 01:03:06.359
equal you see another painting Ah that's

01:03:06.359 --> 01:03:08.520
a deep insight

01:03:08.520 --> 01:03:11.040
but the proposition all men are created

01:03:11.040 --> 01:03:14.880
equal comes into your Consciousness as

01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:15.839
if

01:03:15.839 --> 01:03:20.819
it's a totalizing Thing versus a product

01:03:20.819 --> 01:03:23.420
of the human imagination

01:03:23.420 --> 01:03:26.460
and create creativity

01:03:26.460 --> 01:03:32.119
okay so so could you say that

01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:36.480
and anything that is produced is a

01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.319
representation of a fragment of reality

01:03:40.319 --> 01:03:43.040
yes

01:03:45.359 --> 01:03:47.280
yes in the way you just saw people say

01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:49.740
what is it like to be you well like this

01:03:49.740 --> 01:03:53.220
like that like this like that all I have

01:03:53.220 --> 01:03:57.059
to explain to you are fragments now that

01:03:57.059 --> 01:03:59.819
doesn't mean I'm fragmented

01:03:59.819 --> 01:04:02.819
not at all because the referent you

01:04:02.819 --> 01:04:04.559
always go back to the reference you go

01:04:04.559 --> 01:04:06.240
back to the reference you go back to the

01:04:06.240 --> 01:04:09.540
reference the reference is the whole

01:04:09.540 --> 01:04:13.380
but what you produce is a fragment

01:04:13.380 --> 01:04:16.140
now this is obvious in the exercise but

01:04:16.140 --> 01:04:18.540
I'm trying to say as we go on and look

01:04:18.540 --> 01:04:21.180
at representational thinking and

01:04:21.180 --> 01:04:24.839
justification systems they take the form

01:04:24.839 --> 01:04:26.230
as if they're not

01:04:26.230 --> 01:04:27.839
[Music]

01:04:27.839 --> 01:04:30.839
fragments

01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:33.359
but I'm trying to show you that there's

01:04:33.359 --> 01:04:35.880
they they can't be but built up on

01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:38.540
fragments

01:04:40.619 --> 01:04:44.720
yeah good question great question

01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:50.280
so one of the things we say is that

01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:52.260
um I say it a little different than

01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:55.619
Wilbur they're wholly true in partial

01:04:55.619 --> 01:04:59.099
contexts so when you're really struck by

01:04:59.099 --> 01:05:00.420
a painting

01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:03.780
you don't see that it's partially true

01:05:03.780 --> 01:05:06.420
and partially

01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:09.299
you get the hit that it's really true

01:05:09.299 --> 01:05:13.020
but it's a partial context

01:05:13.020 --> 01:05:15.420
so we are able to have this experience

01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:18.420
of deep truth

01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:21.900
inside a partial context

01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:23.760
versus what Wilbur said is like

01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:26.640
everything is true but partial

01:05:26.640 --> 01:05:28.920
but that kind of

01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:32.280
doesn't match up with this experience of

01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:35.520
deep truth when you see a poem

01:05:35.520 --> 01:05:38.280
or someone being transparent

01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:42.299
of their own feeling right so we we want

01:05:42.299 --> 01:05:45.480
to say everything is wholly true

01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:48.540
inside I mean some things are faults

01:05:48.540 --> 01:05:51.180
inside the context but these deep

01:05:51.180 --> 01:05:54.299
meanings are wholly true inside of

01:05:54.299 --> 01:05:57.140
partial context

01:06:03.299 --> 01:06:06.380
that was a great question

01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.400
Melanie when you talked about

01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:32.700
um representation it also when you first

01:06:32.700 --> 01:06:35.420
started talking about it sounded like

01:06:35.420 --> 01:06:40.020
we take it on like an identity or we get

01:06:40.020 --> 01:06:42.780
deeply identified

01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:46.520
with it in some way

01:06:54.539 --> 01:06:57.539
so that we're not separate from it in

01:06:57.539 --> 01:06:59.579
the same way that we would say this is a

01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:01.819
product

01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:07.619
that I made or created but no this is

01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:11.059
more like who I am

01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:16.380
the theory of you know that explains

01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:18.680
everything

01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.960
yeah so

01:07:24.359 --> 01:07:27.839
I mean this tendency is quite recent and

01:07:27.839 --> 01:07:30.599
probably even doesn't exist in some

01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:33.539
parts of China and certainly not an

01:07:33.539 --> 01:07:35.160
indigenous

01:07:35.160 --> 01:07:40.319
cultures but that so so one of the

01:07:40.319 --> 01:07:43.380
things we could call a theory is my

01:07:43.380 --> 01:07:45.500
narrative my theory of my

01:07:45.500 --> 01:07:48.299
autobiographical self

01:07:48.299 --> 01:07:50.579
so I have this theory that when I was

01:07:50.579 --> 01:07:52.200
four years old and this happened to me

01:07:52.200 --> 01:07:54.619
and this is where I'm like this and then

01:07:54.619 --> 01:07:59.400
so it's seamless seamless integration

01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:01.619
but if I

01:08:01.619 --> 01:08:04.220
do practices like this

01:08:04.220 --> 01:08:07.440
I can illustrate that there's no

01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:10.680
understanding of oneself except in

01:08:10.680 --> 01:08:12.319
fragments

01:08:12.319 --> 01:08:14.760
explicit understanding don't get me

01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:17.940
wrong I'm not trying to say there's no

01:08:17.940 --> 01:08:20.759
continuity of self

01:08:20.759 --> 01:08:24.239
but the explicit representations

01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:28.080
at each juncture and each question

01:08:28.080 --> 01:08:30.540
um arise anew

01:08:30.540 --> 01:08:33.120
um so every time I ask that question in

01:08:33.120 --> 01:08:34.799
this structure it's like you paint a new

01:08:34.799 --> 01:08:36.299
picture and then you paint another

01:08:36.299 --> 01:08:37.859
picture and then you paint another

01:08:37.859 --> 01:08:39.179
picture

01:08:39.179 --> 01:08:43.679
and you paid another picture and

01:08:43.940 --> 01:08:47.940
that creative expression can can be

01:08:47.940 --> 01:08:49.440
endless

01:08:49.440 --> 01:08:53.299
but it doesn't hold together

01:08:53.580 --> 01:08:57.859
like a narrative or a story

01:08:58.080 --> 01:09:02.719
and and so that we then

01:09:02.719 --> 01:09:05.460
elaborate with put on we'll talk about

01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:07.080
this in the next module the

01:09:07.080 --> 01:09:09.839
justification system

01:09:09.839 --> 01:09:12.960
a narrative or a story which is also an

01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:14.580
act of creativity

01:09:14.580 --> 01:09:17.880
that's okay but then we think that it's

01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:20.100
actually representing what happens in

01:09:20.100 --> 01:09:22.020
real time

01:09:22.020 --> 01:09:25.799
on a timeline and it's something that we

01:09:25.799 --> 01:09:28.920
are observing rather than a story we are

01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:31.199
creating

01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:32.160
um

01:09:32.160 --> 01:09:35.060
so

01:09:35.100 --> 01:09:38.339
yeah so

01:09:38.339 --> 01:09:42.440
we're just noticing how

01:09:42.480 --> 01:09:45.060
what actually happens in our body minds

01:09:45.060 --> 01:09:47.400
and then wondering like well

01:09:47.400 --> 01:09:49.859
like we did with memory like

01:09:49.859 --> 01:09:51.299
well I guess I don't really remember

01:09:51.299 --> 01:09:53.279
things like it's in service to the

01:09:53.279 --> 01:09:55.560
present I mash things up my dreams make

01:09:55.560 --> 01:09:56.699
it

01:09:56.699 --> 01:10:00.239
weird because it's constantly like

01:10:00.239 --> 01:10:03.480
creating memories on memories and stuff

01:10:03.480 --> 01:10:06.600
like that and so maybe

01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:09.360
and it's not a problem it's more it's

01:10:09.360 --> 01:10:12.900
more resilient and adaptive than being

01:10:12.900 --> 01:10:15.800
stuck in a memory

01:10:16.380 --> 01:10:20.219
so uh

01:10:20.400 --> 01:10:22.860
yeah

01:10:22.860 --> 01:10:28.020
so this imaginative quality asking what

01:10:28.020 --> 01:10:29.820
does it feel like and then you imagine

01:10:29.820 --> 01:10:34.980
you create a synesthetic thread to well

01:10:34.980 --> 01:10:37.560
it's cotton or it's this or it's that

01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:41.400
this goes on spontaneously and this is

01:10:41.400 --> 01:10:43.699
how we make meaning

01:10:43.699 --> 01:10:46.380
but it's different than you might think

01:10:46.380 --> 01:10:50.340
about how you understand yourself

01:10:50.340 --> 01:10:52.340
um

01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:04.460
and like like these non-ordinary

01:11:04.460 --> 01:11:06.659
synesthetes they're like well I feel

01:11:06.659 --> 01:11:12.020
green or I feel blue we can see how

01:11:13.980 --> 01:11:16.140
odd that is

01:11:16.140 --> 01:11:19.860
but the way normal people make meaning

01:11:19.860 --> 01:11:21.540
is

01:11:21.540 --> 01:11:25.100
odd in the same way

01:11:34.320 --> 01:11:37.260
yeah Marie

01:11:37.260 --> 01:11:41.900
so I know where you are sitting

01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:48.440
um

01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:51.600
I want to ask what it what it what it's

01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:55.320
like to be in this chair

01:11:55.320 --> 01:11:56.460
um

01:11:56.460 --> 01:11:59.219
well I I wanted to go back to the method

01:11:59.219 --> 01:12:01.620
because I had an Insight with the method

01:12:01.620 --> 01:12:03.960
this time because I wrote down the stems

01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:06.719
from the last time so I was looking at

01:12:06.719 --> 01:12:09.179
them and

01:12:09.179 --> 01:12:13.140
and the Insight was how these props are

01:12:13.140 --> 01:12:16.400
designed to provoke metaphor

01:12:16.400 --> 01:12:18.960
versus story

01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:22.080
and and one of the ways that

01:12:22.080 --> 01:12:25.679
um I saw that is that

01:12:25.679 --> 01:12:28.560
I kept instead of so the prompts I wrote

01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:32.100
down is what is it like to be you right

01:12:32.100 --> 01:12:36.179
now and then if if the answer is an

01:12:36.179 --> 01:12:38.699
adjective

01:12:38.699 --> 01:12:45.560
so uh I feel porous and fluffy

01:12:45.739 --> 01:12:49.620
then the stem that um I wrote down from

01:12:49.620 --> 01:12:52.320
the last time is porous and fluffy like

01:12:52.320 --> 01:12:53.820
what

01:12:53.820 --> 01:12:57.420
and but what I noticed a tendency to do

01:12:57.420 --> 01:13:00.600
is to frame the question what does

01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:03.780
porous and fluffy feel like

01:13:03.780 --> 01:13:05.400
and I was noticing the difference

01:13:05.400 --> 01:13:08.400
between those two stems where horse and

01:13:08.400 --> 01:13:10.739
fluffy like what invites another

01:13:10.739 --> 01:13:15.000
metaphor versus what does porous and

01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:19.020
fluffy feel like it it had a tendency

01:13:19.020 --> 01:13:23.159
for me to go into story about

01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:27.600
porous and fluffy yeah so this is a very

01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:29.219
good insight

01:13:29.219 --> 01:13:31.199
you know it's it's

01:13:31.199 --> 01:13:34.440
structurally designed at this point in

01:13:34.440 --> 01:13:36.179
the courses

01:13:36.179 --> 01:13:39.000
but what we're going to find out is that

01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:43.260
all thinking is dependent upon metaphor

01:13:43.260 --> 01:13:47.159
cross modal metaphoric blending

01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:50.940
even science science can't get started

01:13:50.940 --> 01:13:55.380
without the meta a metaphor of Concepts

01:13:55.380 --> 01:13:58.440
at all based on metaphor

01:13:58.440 --> 01:14:01.460
and so we have a direct

01:14:01.460 --> 01:14:04.080
continuity between this kind of

01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:08.520
metaphoric feeling so so feeling is

01:14:08.520 --> 01:14:11.760
explicated in metaphor metaphor is the

01:14:11.760 --> 01:14:14.219
foundation of Concepts and then concepts

01:14:14.219 --> 01:14:17.040
of the foundation for all all conceptual

01:14:17.040 --> 01:14:19.560
and abstract thinking

01:14:19.560 --> 01:14:22.400
so

01:14:22.500 --> 01:14:26.040
um and that that work is extremely well

01:14:26.040 --> 01:14:29.159
documented by lacoff and Johnson amongst

01:14:29.159 --> 01:14:31.320
others and so

01:14:31.320 --> 01:14:34.500
um so let's think of a thought

01:14:34.500 --> 01:14:36.420
um

01:14:36.420 --> 01:14:38.600
um now there are some

01:14:38.600 --> 01:14:41.280
propositions that escape this so that

01:14:41.280 --> 01:14:44.280
there's there is Proposition language

01:14:44.280 --> 01:14:46.820
that points to something like

01:14:46.820 --> 01:14:49.640
that that

01:14:49.640 --> 01:14:52.800
that's just an extension of my gesture

01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:56.699
okay so that is not it is you could say

01:14:56.699 --> 01:15:00.120
it's it it involves synesthesia because

01:15:00.120 --> 01:15:03.620
the word and the pointing gesture become

01:15:03.620 --> 01:15:07.679
the the word is like pointing okay

01:15:07.679 --> 01:15:11.159
but this is very uh rudimentary metaphor

01:15:11.159 --> 01:15:14.100
and then there is language that

01:15:14.100 --> 01:15:17.640
represents a state so when you slap me I

01:15:17.640 --> 01:15:20.400
say ouch so there's a those those are

01:15:20.400 --> 01:15:23.640
not metaphorical in the same way

01:15:23.640 --> 01:15:26.940
all other language is based on what we

01:15:26.940 --> 01:15:29.219
are just doing

01:15:29.219 --> 01:15:34.020
um uh uh perceptual synesthesia is the

01:15:34.020 --> 01:15:35.400
fundamental

01:15:35.400 --> 01:15:38.760
so if I say you if I ask you all

01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:41.699
language is based on definitions

01:15:41.699 --> 01:15:44.520
in all definitions are based on this is

01:15:44.520 --> 01:15:47.120
like that

01:15:47.580 --> 01:15:52.800
right I mean this is the foundation of

01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:55.440
um of language and so it's all just

01:15:55.440 --> 01:15:57.540
conceptual blending and metaphorical

01:15:57.540 --> 01:16:00.199
blending

01:16:00.719 --> 01:16:02.520
and

01:16:02.520 --> 01:16:06.060
um so uh

01:16:06.060 --> 01:16:08.340
with it with the with the exception of

01:16:08.340 --> 01:16:10.440
pure obstructions we'll see that too so

01:16:10.440 --> 01:16:13.199
we're just trying to I mean our project

01:16:13.199 --> 01:16:15.120
here is to put the Mind back into the

01:16:15.120 --> 01:16:19.679
body and so I'm trying to show you that

01:16:19.679 --> 01:16:22.440
there's a felt sense and then it

01:16:22.440 --> 01:16:25.100
explicates itself this is way

01:16:25.100 --> 01:16:27.179
explicates itself

01:16:27.179 --> 01:16:29.820
starts off with perceptual synesthesia

01:16:29.820 --> 01:16:34.440
that virtualizes into into

01:16:34.440 --> 01:16:36.960
this image is like that image and that

01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:39.179
image is like this image is not really

01:16:39.179 --> 01:16:41.280
propositional

01:16:41.280 --> 01:16:43.560
and from that basis we have

01:16:43.560 --> 01:16:45.239
propositional

01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:47.219
language

01:16:47.219 --> 01:16:48.560
so

01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:52.080
electricity Ohm's law

01:16:52.080 --> 01:16:55.800
Ohm's law in electricity is based upon

01:16:55.800 --> 01:16:59.159
thinking of electrons as a stream

01:16:59.159 --> 01:17:02.960
a current it's called the current

01:17:02.960 --> 01:17:06.320
the interaction metaphor is a current

01:17:06.320 --> 01:17:08.940
flowing through

01:17:08.940 --> 01:17:13.380
something right so everything we know in

01:17:13.380 --> 01:17:15.300
Science is based on an interaction

01:17:15.300 --> 01:17:18.540
metaphor which is based on these types

01:17:18.540 --> 01:17:23.100
of synesthetic explications

01:17:27.300 --> 01:17:29.580
this is where we're going for it so yeah

01:17:29.580 --> 01:17:33.120
so we're trying to do this exercise to

01:17:33.120 --> 01:17:35.520
show that The Fun First Fundamental move

01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:39.360
from the body to a representation

01:17:39.360 --> 01:17:43.080
is a metaphor that connects to felt

01:17:43.080 --> 01:17:45.000
sense to

01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:48.679
something it is like

01:17:51.780 --> 01:17:54.600
it's like Einstein now he's thinking

01:17:54.600 --> 01:17:56.640
about gravity and he's in an elevator

01:17:56.640 --> 01:18:00.540
and he realizes this is like

01:18:00.540 --> 01:18:03.540
gravity it feels like being pulled down

01:18:03.540 --> 01:18:07.020
except I'm being exhilarated up and then

01:18:07.020 --> 01:18:10.800
he thinks why is being pulled down like

01:18:10.800 --> 01:18:13.580
being accelerated up

01:18:13.580 --> 01:18:16.560
ah because gravity is the force of is

01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:19.280
acceleration

01:18:20.880 --> 01:18:25.320
it's the exact same experience

01:18:31.320 --> 01:18:34.440
unless you're John verbaki unless you're

01:18:34.440 --> 01:18:37.620
John verveiki because what he does is he

01:18:37.620 --> 01:18:40.020
takes High abstractions and Crosses them

01:18:40.020 --> 01:18:43.260
with other abstractions to create more

01:18:43.260 --> 01:18:45.659
abstractions and it never comes back and

01:18:45.659 --> 01:18:50.960
gets composted in what is it like

01:18:52.380 --> 01:18:54.480
that was a beautiful piece of writing

01:18:54.480 --> 01:18:57.420
this morning Bonnie

01:18:57.420 --> 01:18:58.620
really

01:18:58.620 --> 01:19:00.780
I don't remember it because I did it

01:19:00.780 --> 01:19:03.300
quite a while ago and eval edited it it

01:19:03.300 --> 01:19:04.980
was scheduled to be sent out maybe I'll

01:19:04.980 --> 01:19:08.520
look at it again but yeah so like when

01:19:08.520 --> 01:19:10.980
when abstractions start just crossing

01:19:10.980 --> 01:19:13.679
with abstraction which I call call in my

01:19:13.679 --> 01:19:16.280
act before Socrates Crossing metaphors

01:19:16.280 --> 01:19:18.659
then you lose

01:19:18.659 --> 01:19:21.179
contact with reality because you lose

01:19:21.179 --> 01:19:23.940
contact with the body saying what is it

01:19:23.940 --> 01:19:26.360
like

01:19:28.620 --> 01:19:31.620
and that is

01:19:31.620 --> 01:19:36.560
you know a sacred gift to to

01:19:37.080 --> 01:19:41.219
build upon what is it like

01:19:41.219 --> 01:19:43.320
that's that's what makes

01:19:43.320 --> 01:19:46.199
reality intelligible because it's based

01:19:46.199 --> 01:19:48.900
on what is it like

01:19:48.900 --> 01:19:53.340
in this way of generating

01:19:53.340 --> 01:19:55.500
Expressions on the one hand that seem

01:19:55.500 --> 01:19:57.480
fragmented but because they're always

01:19:57.480 --> 01:20:00.960
based on this lived feeling so if you

01:20:00.960 --> 01:20:02.880
listen to Anna they don't make sense

01:20:02.880 --> 01:20:04.800
it's like what what is this a linear

01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:07.620
progression no but she goes back and it

01:20:07.620 --> 01:20:09.179
serves something else up and it goes

01:20:09.179 --> 01:20:11.520
back so all of these

01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:14.400
are essential metaphors that have

01:20:14.400 --> 01:20:16.800
something to do with reality

01:20:16.800 --> 01:20:19.199
because

01:20:19.199 --> 01:20:21.360
they're at the interface of the body in

01:20:21.360 --> 01:20:24.840
the world what is it like

01:20:24.840 --> 01:20:27.300
and it feels relational Bonnie I feel

01:20:27.300 --> 01:20:31.440
what is it like it's over it's the M

01:20:31.440 --> 01:20:34.560
it's it's the self empty space other

01:20:34.560 --> 01:20:36.780
empty space and world

01:20:36.780 --> 01:20:40.920
and what is it like it almost feels like

01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:43.080
what you just shared about Einstein's

01:20:43.080 --> 01:20:45.300
gravity and having that experience in

01:20:45.300 --> 01:20:49.800
the elevator it's constantly in out it's

01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:52.020
the it's the flow between self-other and

01:20:52.020 --> 01:20:54.540
world that's almost that's what the

01:20:54.540 --> 01:20:57.780
question does to me and I I just popped

01:20:57.780 --> 01:21:00.179
in now and I thought I'd share it but it

01:21:00.179 --> 01:21:03.060
feels very significant to create that

01:21:03.060 --> 01:21:04.980
relationship

01:21:04.980 --> 01:21:06.780
I I don't know what I want to say

01:21:06.780 --> 01:21:09.060
something is arising here and I can't

01:21:09.060 --> 01:21:11.520
make sense of it yet but I thought I'd

01:21:11.520 --> 01:21:14.580
share it already no this is a preview of

01:21:14.580 --> 01:21:16.560
what we're gonna do at the end like we

01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:19.320
have this notion of action protocols

01:21:19.320 --> 01:21:22.080
so I look at a tree

01:21:22.080 --> 01:21:24.780
I'm just looking at it I'm not

01:21:24.780 --> 01:21:28.020
I'm I'm not meditating or contemplating

01:21:28.020 --> 01:21:30.500
on it

01:21:31.260 --> 01:21:34.100
and

01:21:34.260 --> 01:21:37.380
the activity of looking at it presents I

01:21:37.380 --> 01:21:38.340
mean I don't know how you want to

01:21:38.340 --> 01:21:40.860
explain it but it it changes something

01:21:40.860 --> 01:21:42.179
in me

01:21:42.179 --> 01:21:45.120
which posits in me something that it's

01:21:45.120 --> 01:21:48.199
like to be a tree

01:21:48.300 --> 01:21:51.840
so there's this this hat I'm in the

01:21:51.840 --> 01:21:53.940
forest that's my habitat but it's

01:21:53.940 --> 01:21:57.320
creating a habitat in me

01:21:57.320 --> 01:22:01.380
something that is so then when I feel a

01:22:01.380 --> 01:22:04.920
certain way I can say oh I feel like a

01:22:04.920 --> 01:22:07.500
tree because

01:22:07.500 --> 01:22:10.980
had this experience of what's a tiny

01:22:10.980 --> 01:22:15.360
piece of what it's like to be a tree

01:22:15.360 --> 01:22:18.120
and so the fact that we can say I feel

01:22:18.120 --> 01:22:20.880
like cotton is because part of the

01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:23.280
experience of perceiving cotton

01:22:23.280 --> 01:22:25.500
is in me

01:22:25.500 --> 01:22:27.600
my habitats

01:22:27.600 --> 01:22:30.480
play with it it's external becomes

01:22:30.480 --> 01:22:32.280
something in me and now it's available

01:22:32.280 --> 01:22:35.400
to say I

01:22:35.400 --> 01:22:38.580
I feel like cotton

01:22:38.580 --> 01:22:42.239
and so that all the possibility for

01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:44.760
metaphorical generation come from the

01:22:44.760 --> 01:22:47.940
external generated

01:22:47.940 --> 01:22:51.000
in me so then when I say what is it like

01:22:51.000 --> 01:22:54.719
to be you you say a tree

01:22:54.719 --> 01:22:57.360
Now isn't that interesting

01:22:57.360 --> 01:22:59.760
how can you reference something in your

01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:01.260
habitat

01:23:01.260 --> 01:23:04.159
out there

01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:08.040
and know it's like to be you

01:23:08.040 --> 01:23:10.440
and this is what we call Action protocol

01:23:10.440 --> 01:23:14.219
this the habitat becomes interjected as

01:23:14.219 --> 01:23:16.140
a habit test not all of it but

01:23:16.140 --> 01:23:18.900
constantly more of what's out there

01:23:18.900 --> 01:23:22.260
becomes absorbed into what is in here

01:23:22.260 --> 01:23:24.960
just like when you breathe the air out

01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:27.840
there becomes in your lungs

01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:31.140
then you get into this cycle of

01:23:31.140 --> 01:23:35.159
mystical no boundary uh and you look

01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:37.140
inside yourself and you don't see

01:23:37.140 --> 01:23:39.480
psychological structures

01:23:39.480 --> 01:23:44.460
you see the habitat in which you dwell

01:23:44.460 --> 01:23:46.980
so I think I mean you're very intuitive

01:23:46.980 --> 01:23:49.140
I I just put a lot of language into

01:23:49.140 --> 01:23:50.940
something profound I think you're

01:23:50.940 --> 01:23:53.580
realizing

01:23:53.580 --> 01:23:55.140
and that's what we'll do at the end of

01:23:55.140 --> 01:23:57.179
the year well like all these exercises

01:23:57.179 --> 01:23:59.460
are going to become part of that theory

01:23:59.460 --> 01:24:02.460
new theory of the body which is

01:24:02.460 --> 01:24:04.800
is that

01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:06.900
and so we work with like things that are

01:24:06.900 --> 01:24:09.000
just ordinary well I feel like cotton or

01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:11.940
I feel like I feel like a tree and then

01:24:11.940 --> 01:24:14.840
we think we reflect on it and see how

01:24:14.840 --> 01:24:18.360
extraordinary it is for someone

01:24:18.360 --> 01:24:23.120
to say that and really mean it

01:24:30.780 --> 01:24:33.239
first it's it's some kind of semiotics

01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:36.300
we're like okay well we use metaphor and

01:24:36.300 --> 01:24:39.060
it's a semiotic triangle and we're like

01:24:39.060 --> 01:24:41.719
no

01:24:52.560 --> 01:24:55.199
it almost seems like with these

01:24:55.199 --> 01:24:56.940
exercises I noticed it last time and I

01:24:56.940 --> 01:24:59.840
noticed it today with Sandra as well

01:24:59.840 --> 01:25:01.679
in both

01:25:01.679 --> 01:25:06.900
of our what what was felt in the field

01:25:06.900 --> 01:25:11.179
it's like doing this exercise

01:25:11.699 --> 01:25:14.280
put you in touch with

01:25:14.280 --> 01:25:16.199
a bigger

01:25:16.199 --> 01:25:20.159
energetic unfolding

01:25:20.280 --> 01:25:24.060
um you just start to like sync up sync

01:25:24.060 --> 01:25:27.600
up with it like I felt like a bird that

01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:30.120
lifted off a cliff but I felt this

01:25:30.120 --> 01:25:32.540
effervescent and then I felt this like

01:25:32.540 --> 01:25:35.340
rising and falling but oh there's

01:25:35.340 --> 01:25:37.320
something about the falling I want to

01:25:37.320 --> 01:25:40.080
fall so that I can have the rise oh it's

01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:43.140
a relationship oh it's a dance oh we're

01:25:43.140 --> 01:25:46.860
playing uh I in the wind I in the lift

01:25:46.860 --> 01:25:49.679
are playing with each other but that

01:25:49.679 --> 01:25:52.820
actually feels like contacting

01:25:52.820 --> 01:25:57.239
something that is well beyond me as a

01:25:57.239 --> 01:26:00.560
personality self

01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:05.040
and Sandra said that she as well oh I

01:26:05.040 --> 01:26:08.100
was flying too I was lifting and falling

01:26:08.100 --> 01:26:10.679
too like we were syncing up with

01:26:10.679 --> 01:26:12.840
something it Sandra do you want to speak

01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:15.380
to it

01:26:19.020 --> 01:26:22.560
yeah the the sense of empathic

01:26:22.560 --> 01:26:24.480
projection was so

01:26:24.480 --> 01:26:26.159
fluid

01:26:26.159 --> 01:26:27.600
there was

01:26:27.600 --> 01:26:29.659
no

01:26:29.659 --> 01:26:35.159
separation of or my the story I made up

01:26:35.159 --> 01:26:38.100
with who we were having a very similar

01:26:38.100 --> 01:26:39.540
experience

01:26:39.540 --> 01:26:43.739
that Liz would gesture and I could feel

01:26:43.739 --> 01:26:46.199
that in my body

01:26:46.199 --> 01:26:46.980
um

01:26:46.980 --> 01:26:50.060
and the words

01:26:50.420 --> 01:26:54.060
didn't even matter at some level it was

01:26:54.060 --> 01:26:55.260
more

01:26:55.260 --> 01:26:57.679
of an energetic

01:26:57.679 --> 01:27:01.679
transmission yeah

01:27:08.460 --> 01:27:11.040
and I did notice when we did this on

01:27:11.040 --> 01:27:12.659
Saturday

01:27:12.659 --> 01:27:15.659
um that

01:27:16.320 --> 01:27:19.020
I could sense

01:27:19.020 --> 01:27:24.780
the the place where the psyche was like

01:27:24.780 --> 01:27:27.600
oh I want to add a story oh I want to

01:27:27.600 --> 01:27:31.199
make this into a schema oh this could be

01:27:31.199 --> 01:27:34.380
that and there's like this little

01:27:34.380 --> 01:27:37.739
this little pull in that direction and

01:27:37.739 --> 01:27:38.460
then

01:27:38.460 --> 01:27:40.500
it was like refreshing the browser

01:27:40.500 --> 01:27:43.080
somebody's saying oh

01:27:43.080 --> 01:27:47.100
and that what's that like you know it's

01:27:47.100 --> 01:27:50.100
like oh thank you

01:27:50.100 --> 01:27:54.480
big relief yeah but then we have the

01:27:54.480 --> 01:27:55.500
human

01:27:55.500 --> 01:27:57.020
foreign

01:27:57.020 --> 01:28:00.600
capacity to create stories this is where

01:28:00.600 --> 01:28:02.580
stories come from so we have all this

01:28:02.580 --> 01:28:04.440
material and then you start to

01:28:04.440 --> 01:28:06.420
metaphorically blend them through things

01:28:06.420 --> 01:28:11.040
like causality narration and time all

01:28:11.040 --> 01:28:13.260
these other relationships which is an

01:28:13.260 --> 01:28:16.020
imaginative capacity and though that

01:28:16.020 --> 01:28:19.020
could be fun like that's like

01:28:19.020 --> 01:28:22.560
you know people sit out camping and they

01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:24.420
have these experiences and then they're

01:28:24.420 --> 01:28:25.920
like let me tell you a story and you

01:28:25.920 --> 01:28:29.159
know it's imaginative and it's and it's

01:28:29.159 --> 01:28:31.980
joyful and it's creative

01:28:31.980 --> 01:28:36.120
but it's not like the Dharma you know

01:28:36.120 --> 01:28:38.219
this is the way it is

01:28:38.219 --> 01:28:41.520
it's a joyful imaginative Collective

01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:44.699
expression of this this type of

01:28:44.699 --> 01:28:47.699
experience

01:28:52.620 --> 01:28:55.860
so that's a good noticing like like and

01:28:55.860 --> 01:28:57.360
if it's like a

01:28:57.360 --> 01:29:01.320
dumb storyline that wants to connect

01:29:01.320 --> 01:29:05.940
your spontaneous and creative answers to

01:29:05.940 --> 01:29:08.639
like the heroes Journey that's kind of

01:29:08.639 --> 01:29:11.340
boring you know

01:29:11.340 --> 01:29:12.060
um

01:29:12.060 --> 01:29:14.719
yeah

01:29:32.480 --> 01:29:35.780
anything else

01:29:35.940 --> 01:29:40.520
thank you Ray you get the star today

01:29:49.620 --> 01:29:51.780
I'm going to post this the first two

01:29:51.780 --> 01:29:54.179
videos and uh we'll see what happens

01:29:54.179 --> 01:29:57.239
there there I have um another exercise

01:29:57.239 --> 01:30:01.320
we might move to the second exercise

01:30:01.320 --> 01:30:04.139
um maybe for the next couple of sessions

01:30:04.139 --> 01:30:06.659
so if you're interested in doing

01:30:06.659 --> 01:30:08.159
something a little different maybe we'll

01:30:08.159 --> 01:30:10.620
do that and I thank you this has been a

01:30:10.620 --> 01:30:12.560
great yet another

01:30:12.560 --> 01:30:16.020
a great session and

01:30:16.020 --> 01:30:18.900
um just carry this this module forward

01:30:18.900 --> 01:30:20.520
thank you so much

01:30:20.520 --> 01:30:23.060
foreign

## Cohort 3

00:00:02.040 --> 00:00:04.340
foreign

00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:20.160
not quite sure what we're doing today we

00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:24.539
have a menu that we can choose from

00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:29.580
uh but let's just let that

00:00:29.580 --> 00:00:32.940
uh Choice happen

00:00:32.940 --> 00:00:35.579
as we kind of get situated here I do

00:00:35.579 --> 00:00:38.160
have a little presentation

00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:39.000
um

00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:43.559
for you all uh but as we're settling in

00:00:43.559 --> 00:00:46.559
here is there oh I want to kiss

00:00:46.559 --> 00:00:49.820
that's not fair

00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:52.620
at the end of the course the end of the

00:00:52.620 --> 00:00:54.739
course

00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:03.359
so um are there any questions or

00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:07.320
noticings or uh yeah questions or why

00:01:07.320 --> 00:01:09.000
does this matter or how we're putting

00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.400
this together uh we have a little slow

00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:13.500
start today before we jump into the

00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:17.119
presentation and then do the exercise

00:01:17.880 --> 00:01:21.900
bunny I'm just curious if you heard

00:01:21.900 --> 00:01:26.340
BB by Kellen Ian mcgilchrist yesterday

00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:29.640
and Imagination

00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:32.040
no I couldn't make it I know that I

00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:34.140
don't think the recordings up yet though

00:01:34.140 --> 00:01:35.220
right

00:01:35.220 --> 00:01:37.799
no I don't know I don't know I don't

00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.079
think so yeah because it usually takes

00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.780
perspective like two days or so you know

00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:44.280
I've been watching well I did one of the

00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:45.720
series and I've been watching it what

00:01:45.720 --> 00:01:47.220
what did you what was your take away

00:01:47.220 --> 00:01:49.619
from it

00:01:49.619 --> 00:01:50.939
um

00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:54.000
I mean there was I don't know what you

00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:57.600
think Justin but um I mean there was

00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:00.840
like this you know ignited alignment

00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:02.820
between the two

00:02:02.820 --> 00:02:05.899
um mutually reinforcing

00:02:05.899 --> 00:02:09.300
basically both insecurities around

00:02:09.300 --> 00:02:14.640
imagination and around morality you know

00:02:14.640 --> 00:02:17.879
um and they were you know totally like

00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:19.620
reinforcing each other oh yeah yeah

00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:21.720
that's absolutely right oh yeah yeah I'm

00:02:21.720 --> 00:02:23.220
an absolute agreement

00:02:23.220 --> 00:02:26.580
and I just I have to say I I wish you

00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:28.340
had been there

00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:31.500
he's tough to talk to it with though you

00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:34.459
know yeah yeah

00:02:35.099 --> 00:02:36.840
I tried to get him to be more

00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.300
conversational like have a conversation

00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:41.040
about what's happening in the world but

00:02:41.040 --> 00:02:44.300
then you know he keeps framing it and uh

00:02:44.300 --> 00:02:46.920
and maybe something like that was going

00:02:46.920 --> 00:02:49.379
on with her too because I know she

00:02:49.379 --> 00:02:52.920
oh no I mean I think she she tried I

00:02:52.920 --> 00:02:56.340
mean I think she was very vibrant and uh

00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:59.300
and it was fascinating how there was a

00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:04.440
huge plug for dugald Heinz book you know

00:03:04.440 --> 00:03:08.879
that kind of took off ruins yeah yeah

00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:10.440
the interesting thing about milk

00:03:10.440 --> 00:03:12.420
Gilchrist is every time he says left

00:03:12.420 --> 00:03:15.060
brain every time he says right brain we

00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:16.620
say the body

00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:20.159
yeah you know yeah yeah exactly and so

00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:22.860
you know he even says that you know you

00:03:22.860 --> 00:03:26.519
can take his thing as meta especially in

00:03:26.519 --> 00:03:28.260
the end when he's taking these large

00:03:28.260 --> 00:03:30.120
Concepts and saying right brain left

00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.319
brain but I noticed that I I would say

00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:36.780
you know right brain thinking is the

00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:38.900
body and left brain thinking is

00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:41.580
abstraction or whatever

00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:43.379
um these are interesting distinctions

00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:45.360
it's an interesting question like how in

00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:46.980
this course we would actually make those

00:03:46.980 --> 00:03:50.239
distinctions between

00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:54.480
um yeah between what is dynamically

00:03:54.480 --> 00:03:56.280
happening in the body when you're doing

00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:57.900
left brain thinking and what is

00:03:57.900 --> 00:03:59.879
dynamically happening in the body when

00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:02.400
you're doing right brain thinking

00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:03.599
um

00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.900
that's a great great I think that should

00:04:06.900 --> 00:04:08.459
be your assignment

00:04:08.459 --> 00:04:11.420
to write okay

00:04:11.420 --> 00:04:16.799
okay well I'm gonna post a quote from

00:04:16.799 --> 00:04:22.139
Whitehead that I don't know if it is

00:04:22.139 --> 00:04:25.500
um relevant but it's it's especially in

00:04:25.500 --> 00:04:28.100
the context of all this

00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:31.740
discussion around llms and everything

00:04:31.740 --> 00:04:33.419
else

00:04:33.419 --> 00:04:36.720
um it it's kind of Haunting Me and if

00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.360
it's not relevant don't worry I'm just

00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.340
gonna get rid of it here so I can

00:04:41.340 --> 00:04:43.170
concentrate

00:04:43.170 --> 00:04:47.199
[Laughter]

00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:49.919
I will just say that he was way more

00:04:49.919 --> 00:04:52.080
animated than I have ever seen him he

00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:55.080
was Zero yeah it was like his

00:04:55.080 --> 00:04:57.120
granddaughter or something was there you

00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.800
know I mean Hugh has done fire

00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:03.600
yeah that's I think a gift of phoebies

00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.419
if you've seen her facilitate uh large

00:05:06.419 --> 00:05:10.080
groups uh she yeah

00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:11.400
um

00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:13.080
so

00:05:13.080 --> 00:05:13.919
um

00:05:13.919 --> 00:05:15.900
yeah I'll watch it you know watch it and

00:05:15.900 --> 00:05:17.699
then we can talk about it

00:05:17.699 --> 00:05:20.280
one of the things I heard today uh when

00:05:20.280 --> 00:05:22.080
I read this week this is a little bit of

00:05:22.080 --> 00:05:24.780
an aside but

00:05:24.780 --> 00:05:26.699
you know how we have this notion of

00:05:26.699 --> 00:05:29.940
habitat I walk around in my habitat and

00:05:29.940 --> 00:05:33.440
when I perceive a tree something is

00:05:33.440 --> 00:05:35.699
simultaneously changing in me whether

00:05:35.699 --> 00:05:38.340
you just want to say it's the photons on

00:05:38.340 --> 00:05:41.340
my retina blah blah blah but it changes

00:05:41.340 --> 00:05:45.060
my habitats right and I read this this

00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:46.680
is a cool book I don't recommend it

00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:50.340
because it's why people talk like this I

00:05:50.340 --> 00:05:52.380
don't know it's very hard to read she's

00:05:52.380 --> 00:05:55.620
French is Isabel stangers and she's

00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:58.020
talking about Whitehead and she's like

00:05:58.020 --> 00:06:01.139
LaTour she likes to craft these

00:06:01.139 --> 00:06:03.360
phrases the French do you never know

00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:05.039
what they're talking about it's kind of

00:06:05.039 --> 00:06:09.000
hard to but what she says is that

00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:09.720
um

00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.860
she says that we are have never not been

00:06:13.860 --> 00:06:17.520
animists and she said like the early

00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:20.280
people she doesn't use our terms but she

00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:22.800
says it exactly what we say when they

00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.800
looked at a stone they could feel she

00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.120
quotes this

00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.600
this

00:06:29.900 --> 00:06:33.960
tribal poem that talks about

00:06:33.960 --> 00:06:36.600
um he's talking to the stone and she

00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.120
said they were aware that when they

00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:41.759
interact with the stone that their

00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:44.460
interior is being changed and so

00:06:44.460 --> 00:06:46.680
remember our definition of subject

00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:48.780
theory of Mind was something would

00:06:48.780 --> 00:06:51.780
co-berry with you right so the world is

00:06:51.780 --> 00:06:53.520
actually co-bearing they're aware of

00:06:53.520 --> 00:06:56.460
this one-to-one correspondence and she

00:06:56.460 --> 00:07:00.180
says we're the same way as moderns but

00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:04.139
but what we interject our Concepts and

00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:05.580
words

00:07:05.580 --> 00:07:08.160
so that's why they're more real to us

00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:12.900
than real things because our habitat is

00:07:12.900 --> 00:07:16.259
words first of all we've you know set

00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:18.120
aside everything else we've been taught

00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.360
not to pay attention perceptually and so

00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.400
when we look at a word she says it

00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:25.800
happened in text because when we had

00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.500
text especially early text you know like

00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:31.380
the hieroglyphs they were more like

00:07:31.380 --> 00:07:35.039
symbols and so you could study the

00:07:35.039 --> 00:07:38.099
symbol over and over again and it would

00:07:38.099 --> 00:07:41.039
interject as your hobby toss

00:07:41.039 --> 00:07:43.639
and so she said it's the same system

00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:48.000
it's the same animist's system but we

00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.720
live in a world of Concepts and text and

00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:54.720
so this made me think of

00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.660
you know uh Socrates saying what is

00:07:57.660 --> 00:07:59.460
courage outside of the context like

00:07:59.460 --> 00:08:03.479
looking at it and trying to see how this

00:08:03.479 --> 00:08:05.940
relationship with you know so I thought

00:08:05.940 --> 00:08:09.000
this was fabulous Insight

00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:13.080
um uh that I'll be writing about but

00:08:13.080 --> 00:08:14.580
um

00:08:14.580 --> 00:08:16.139
yeah

00:08:16.139 --> 00:08:18.120
so you know how was it relate to

00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:21.780
imagination is that some of this what's

00:08:21.780 --> 00:08:24.419
put in in

00:08:24.419 --> 00:08:27.539
what's available to us is interior to

00:08:27.539 --> 00:08:28.979
imagine

00:08:28.979 --> 00:08:32.279
is incorporated from the out from the

00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:34.500
outside

00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:35.279
um

00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.339
um and then to the extent that it can

00:08:37.339 --> 00:08:40.800
loop around itself it's infinite or does

00:08:40.800 --> 00:08:42.599
it constantly loop back through

00:08:42.599 --> 00:08:45.779
perception is it is it interesting is an

00:08:45.779 --> 00:08:49.080
interesting question so

00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.080
um

00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:57.540
it would be like at a at a certain type

00:08:57.540 --> 00:08:59.580
of person

00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:02.880
um or in in the book she talks about

00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:07.260
the woman that has dementia and

00:09:07.260 --> 00:09:09.839
um she's she's mad because they won't

00:09:09.839 --> 00:09:12.779
let her go home but she's in her house

00:09:12.779 --> 00:09:15.000
and the thing is what's happening is you

00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.519
can see externally but she can't import

00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.220
it it doesn't get imported and feel like

00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:23.700
her own house right and so

00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:26.100
um that's one kind of a reality in the

00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:29.160
second kind of a reality is if you lost

00:09:29.160 --> 00:09:31.560
all all ability to communicate with

00:09:31.560 --> 00:09:33.480
someone else and all your communication

00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.279
was in your own head so that's kind of

00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.680
like a schizophrenic oh his the voices

00:09:37.680 --> 00:09:39.899
are in their own head

00:09:39.899 --> 00:09:42.720
um and this there's not this full kind

00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.060
of

00:09:44.060 --> 00:09:47.279
uh churning dynamism of the whole the

00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.540
whole circle so uh so imagination has

00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:53.100
something to do

00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:56.180
um to do with that

00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:02.339
I'll speak right

00:10:02.339 --> 00:10:05.339
see it doesn't matter which you know

00:10:05.339 --> 00:10:06.839
there's that commercial you have these

00:10:06.839 --> 00:10:08.820
two twins and one smokes a cigarette and

00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:10.320
the other one the smoke comes out of

00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:13.019
their mouth did you ever see that and

00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:17.480
Mommy that's not kind now you be quiet

00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:21.000
or accurate

00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.339
okay go ahead do you want easy or

00:10:23.339 --> 00:10:25.320
difficult

00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.279
Bonnie

00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:31.440
oh I'm not in charge over there I don't

00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:34.080
know who's in charge

00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:36.839
so um

00:10:36.839 --> 00:10:39.839
at the risk of getting an assignment

00:10:39.839 --> 00:10:42.000
from you

00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.120
I want you to know we were cramming for

00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.140
class today

00:10:48.779 --> 00:10:52.339
and um

00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.399
I want I'm not

00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.760
I mean I don't think there's Clarity in

00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:01.019
in

00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:03.300
my question

00:11:03.300 --> 00:11:06.260
but I know there's

00:11:06.260 --> 00:11:11.160
some substance in what I'm gonna say

00:11:11.160 --> 00:11:14.060
and it has to do with

00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:18.180
Whitehead's statement about speculative

00:11:18.180 --> 00:11:20.700
philosophy

00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:23.640
ontology I expect

00:11:23.640 --> 00:11:25.920
philosophy first yeah you can you can

00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:29.120
speculate on top but

00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:32.420
he's listening to me

00:11:32.420 --> 00:11:34.980
I might have said ontology but he's

00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:37.079
doing specular philosophy yeah and

00:11:37.079 --> 00:11:38.820
ontology can come out of that or

00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:39.839
whatever

00:11:39.839 --> 00:11:44.360
so it comes from the experience Sunday

00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:48.180
sitting in the Corral standing next to

00:11:48.180 --> 00:11:50.880
you Bonnie with about three or four of

00:11:50.880 --> 00:11:54.720
your horses and you

00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.800
looking at me and saying do you feel the

00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:02.339
softness in your body

00:12:02.339 --> 00:12:06.420
and when you said it I felt

00:12:06.420 --> 00:12:08.279
in my right

00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:12.000
running my calf is energy yeah the

00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.459
heaviness that in the

00:12:14.459 --> 00:12:17.640
in your feet actually yeah

00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.660
yeah moving down there yeah from moving

00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:24.600
down from you calling my attention to

00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:26.220
that

00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:30.420
and the point that you got to

00:12:30.420 --> 00:12:35.399
in that uh description to me was that

00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.180
you shared that the horses communicate

00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:42.720
with each other through the ground

00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:46.820
yeah that's partially yeah

00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:50.820
so for me

00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:56.579
there's an opening to a beautiful life

00:12:56.579 --> 00:12:58.639
force

00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:03.300
Beyond those words and pictures that I

00:13:03.300 --> 00:13:07.100
spend most of my time with

00:13:12.959 --> 00:13:16.440
that's what I wanted to share

00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.800
yeah I mean that's what I you know I

00:13:19.800 --> 00:13:21.300
think

00:13:21.300 --> 00:13:22.920
when people

00:13:22.920 --> 00:13:25.760
often look at my work

00:13:25.760 --> 00:13:29.459
they imagine that if they spent all

00:13:29.459 --> 00:13:33.480
their time down there that the world

00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.120
would be diminished like because idea as

00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:39.920
an infinite and technology and I and I

00:13:39.920 --> 00:13:42.720
proposed that we haven't even

00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.480
we're you know we're all our activities

00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.540
in the the tip of the iceberg and that

00:13:48.540 --> 00:13:51.060
they're so that it's equally infinite

00:13:51.060 --> 00:13:52.200
down there

00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.540
and you know people are so

00:13:56.540 --> 00:13:59.820
jazzed up about discovering Life on Mars

00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:02.579
or other planets which is cool but we

00:14:02.579 --> 00:14:05.399
don't even know how to discover Life on

00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.800
our own Planet it's just it's just and

00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:09.420
then we think well that's it's not

00:14:09.420 --> 00:14:12.240
sophisticated life but God forbid you

00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:16.019
see one molecule of water on Mars and

00:14:16.019 --> 00:14:18.240
it's like it's like a treat so there's

00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:19.620
just some

00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:21.920
kind of strange

00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:25.680
uh nightmare were under you know like

00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:26.639
like

00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.360
it's it's

00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.120
um

00:14:32.339 --> 00:14:35.160
for some maybe just force a habit you

00:14:35.160 --> 00:14:39.980
know or something I don't know but but

00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:47.760
yeah Bonnie

00:14:49.139 --> 00:14:51.540
as you're speaking I'm dropping into

00:14:51.540 --> 00:14:53.720
that experience again

00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.880
and it wasn't just the three or four

00:14:56.880 --> 00:14:58.980
horses and

00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:01.620
and you and me and I think Bibi was

00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:04.860
close to us as well it was

00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:07.560
a dozen humans

00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:09.600
six horses

00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.560
and a few dogs and nobody was moving and

00:15:13.560 --> 00:15:16.740
nobody was grounded and loving each

00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:21.839
other and gentle I mean it was like

00:15:21.839 --> 00:15:24.720
that's what I call the beauty that's

00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:25.820
available

00:15:25.820 --> 00:15:29.480
beyond the words

00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.459
yeah what they did is they constellated

00:15:32.459 --> 00:15:37.820
a a state of perfection for us

00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:40.440
and

00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.620
um

00:15:43.199 --> 00:15:46.199
yeah a couple of Scouts and a matriarch

00:15:46.199 --> 00:15:48.779
yes a couple of Scouts and a old lady

00:15:48.779 --> 00:15:51.120
old matriarch

00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.760
um I'm not talking about the humans I'm

00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:57.920
talking about no no no yeah I know yeah

00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:02.040
um and so you notice too when the Scouts

00:16:02.040 --> 00:16:03.540
went out or they moved really fast

00:16:03.540 --> 00:16:06.180
people moved before they knew they knew

00:16:06.180 --> 00:16:07.920
that something moved because the energy

00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:09.959
comes up from the ground because our

00:16:09.959 --> 00:16:14.100
energy was sunk uh sunk in place

00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:16.860
so when people talk about

00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:20.160
sitting in place or you know this has

00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:22.500
got a exact correlate or when the

00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:24.420
taoists talk about being rooted or

00:16:24.420 --> 00:16:26.940
grounded it's not just a metaphor I mean

00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:28.980
literally you feel that your energy is

00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:30.899
going through your legs and about 100

00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:34.440
miles deep into the Earth uh it's a it's

00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:35.279
a

00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:36.660
it's could be it's an interesting

00:16:36.660 --> 00:16:39.180
experience and you feel like you don't

00:16:39.180 --> 00:16:41.519
need to move or don't want to move and

00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.040
this is like

00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:45.720
those demos that these Tai Chi people

00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:47.399
have and people can't move them is

00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.259
because they've tapped into that they're

00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:52.680
literally like a magnet stuck you know

00:16:52.680 --> 00:16:54.959
deep into the Earth there's other

00:16:54.959 --> 00:16:57.360
aspects of it too but that's what what

00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.199
it's drawn on

00:17:01.019 --> 00:17:03.600
I will insert something here because in

00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:05.400
talking about stuff coming up from the

00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:06.839
Earth

00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.380
I often well I often often enough feel

00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:13.620
that I am like a mixing bowl where stuff

00:17:13.620 --> 00:17:15.240
coming out of the earth and coming down

00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:17.280
and there's just

00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:19.740
there's this motion occurring

00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.419
and sometimes they just get out of the

00:17:21.419 --> 00:17:23.520
way my attention now does do it but I

00:17:23.520 --> 00:17:25.799
had this experience in North Carolina

00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:28.559
they were so vivid that I was standing

00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:30.780
at it I was just letting it occur and I

00:17:30.780 --> 00:17:34.040
described it afterwards

00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:40.380
and this woman there drew a picture of

00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.500
it

00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.760
she described it Heaven and Earth

00:17:44.760 --> 00:17:47.700
meeting and dancing

00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:49.080
and it was partly because they were

00:17:49.080 --> 00:17:51.600
doing these singing walls at the time

00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:53.700
but um

00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.220
my attention obviously shifts it but if

00:17:56.220 --> 00:17:58.080
I get out of the way it just does its

00:17:58.080 --> 00:18:00.299
thing you know sometimes it's rising

00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:01.860
sometimes it's coming down but it is

00:18:01.860 --> 00:18:02.880
like

00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.620
you know I worked on construction and

00:18:04.620 --> 00:18:06.059
you're seeing they have these you know

00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:08.580
these mechanical systems where the air

00:18:08.580 --> 00:18:10.799
is mixed and it was very much like that

00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.539
there's just this

00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:15.740
beautiful lovely

00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:17.220
I don't know I don't know how to

00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:19.320
describe it it's just wonderful yeah so

00:18:19.320 --> 00:18:21.480
the taoists call it the mic there's a

00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.870
macro Cosmic orbit we

00:18:24.870 --> 00:18:25.980
[Music]

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:28.080
right and so and then there's a micro

00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:31.740
Cosmic orbit which is more like

00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:34.080
um the chakras of the central governing

00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:35.880
canals and has a lot to do with

00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.520
spiritual energy but

00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:42.059
um uh and there they move relative to

00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:45.840
each other and on and on and on but when

00:18:45.840 --> 00:18:49.020
you think of for example

00:18:49.020 --> 00:18:51.360
um you know a lot of a lot of what we

00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.580
knew in the past

00:18:53.580 --> 00:18:54.440
um

00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.220
we as moderns adopt

00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:00.059
and

00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:02.340
um we don't really realize how literal

00:19:02.340 --> 00:19:04.320
it is you know because

00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:06.059
they would talk about these things and

00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:08.280
they would use metaphors like

00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:11.640
Earth and Sun or Earth and Sky because

00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.460
they didn't have metaphors like you know

00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:17.820
the great the gravitational pull of the

00:19:17.820 --> 00:19:20.240
earth and the whatever

00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.740
we know that our scientific terms are

00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:25.140
also metaphors and so we think that they

00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:27.679
that they were making

00:19:27.679 --> 00:19:30.960
uh symbolic meaning and not pointing to

00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.600
like that's a lot of this stuff is

00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:35.220
pretty literal

00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:37.020
and

00:19:37.020 --> 00:19:37.740
um

00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.740
um so so

00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:45.059
um uh now what was I gonna say the

00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:47.940
littleness of it oh so what we have

00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:51.780
today preserved so so

00:19:51.780 --> 00:19:54.360
right around you know the Greek and the

00:19:54.360 --> 00:19:56.160
axial age and we start to look at these

00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.720
words and we have text the the the

00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.280
contextualized story and the practices

00:20:02.280 --> 00:20:03.559
become

00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:06.059
uh become

00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:08.700
put in these broader metaphors and we

00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:10.679
have this notion of vertical Dimension

00:20:10.679 --> 00:20:12.840
like the horizontal Dimension and the

00:20:12.840 --> 00:20:17.580
vertical Dimension and it has some uh

00:20:17.580 --> 00:20:21.179
some relationship to the Ancients but

00:20:21.179 --> 00:20:23.400
what the Ancients meant about the

00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.500
vertical Dimension was not like what we

00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:28.320
do like Transcendence the mind

00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:30.780
transcends and gets Spacey the vertical

00:20:30.780 --> 00:20:32.700
Dimension is exactly what you're talking

00:20:32.700 --> 00:20:35.400
it's a macrocosmic order it's an

00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:37.620
embodied experience of some kind of

00:20:37.620 --> 00:20:40.440
streaming energy however you want to

00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.480
interpret it so like there's this

00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.120
horizontal dimension in which I relate

00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:47.700
to mundane things that I do my stuff and

00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:51.419
when I notice I notice that there's a

00:20:51.419 --> 00:20:53.340
vertical Dimension that goes all the way

00:20:53.340 --> 00:20:55.020
into the Earth and all the way up into

00:20:55.020 --> 00:20:58.260
the sky now just imagine how we use this

00:20:58.260 --> 00:20:59.580
term and then there's a vertical

00:20:59.580 --> 00:21:02.520
Dimension called Transcendence

00:21:02.520 --> 00:21:05.220
so it doesn't go down and up anymore and

00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:07.080
so

00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:10.679
um yeah so when you first meet these a

00:21:10.679 --> 00:21:12.660
lot of our metaphors our directionality

00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:15.360
this one is is lit you know is literally

00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:17.220
that's what it feels like

00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:19.500
I'll just say that even though I do get

00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:21.600
that up and down a lot

00:21:21.600 --> 00:21:24.780
most of the time it's like an aurora

00:21:24.780 --> 00:21:27.480
borealis it's it's all different

00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.100
directions just moving and sometimes

00:21:29.100 --> 00:21:30.480
it's like there's an internal horrible

00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.460
realis and there's an external one and

00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:33.600
sometimes

00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:35.880
there's no partition and how many times

00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:37.080
there is

00:21:37.080 --> 00:21:39.480
and you'll see this too once they get

00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.600
going there's some that go like this and

00:21:42.600 --> 00:21:44.520
some that go like this you know and

00:21:44.520 --> 00:21:47.360
people are just explaining

00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:50.700
the sense of streams of energy thought

00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:53.460
is a stream is a stream or a flow or

00:21:53.460 --> 00:21:56.159
these are fluxes let's say

00:21:56.159 --> 00:21:58.140
um but

00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:00.659
yeah

00:22:00.659 --> 00:22:03.720
um in this instance I don't know you can

00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.299
explain it away but basically people

00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:08.520
notice that

00:22:08.520 --> 00:22:10.919
they're doing their body is kind of

00:22:10.919 --> 00:22:13.679
unusual they're very soft on top they

00:22:13.679 --> 00:22:16.500
can't get no one's saying anything and

00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:19.140
there's a lot of energy really literally

00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:22.140
from their knees down and your knees you

00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:24.360
know I take psilocybin before you get

00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:28.380
high you feel heavy heavy heavy I mean

00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:30.840
it's like that you feel heavy that the

00:22:30.840 --> 00:22:33.360
Taoist would say that she is sinking

00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:36.179
whatever that means you know

00:22:36.179 --> 00:22:36.780
um

00:22:36.780 --> 00:22:40.220
so you just notice it's

00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:43.260
it's a disposition and a gesture a

00:22:43.260 --> 00:22:47.159
bodily gesture that is is different than

00:22:47.159 --> 00:22:50.640
normal at least in this body as far as I

00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.280
can tell thoughts don't exist without an

00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:55.320
Associated frequency that's my

00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:58.280
experience yeah yeah

00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:03.480
you can catch them before they become a

00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:05.760
thought right that little gurgle and

00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:08.220
then if you pay if you pay attention to

00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.260
it in a certain way then it's like

00:23:10.260 --> 00:23:14.400
putting uh fuel on the fire and if at

00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:17.159
that point you don't then

00:23:17.159 --> 00:23:19.200
it might take a long time but then it'll

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.480
pass it won't become a thought it's the

00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:23.520
energy of a Proto thought

00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:25.980
um yeah I just remember this fascinating

00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.200
it only happened once but

00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.140
I I had the experience something

00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:35.100
occurred and I saw

00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:37.740
my time sense had slowed down there was

00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:40.500
going to be a decision to be upset

00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:42.240
and I caught it

00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.220
and I shut it off before it occurred and

00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:46.140
nothing happened usually once it occurs

00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:47.940
it's like I'm at the mercy of it and I

00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:49.919
have to let it bleed off yeah this time

00:23:49.919 --> 00:23:51.780
I you know it's like holy crap do I

00:23:51.780 --> 00:23:53.640
decide every time I get upset in that

00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.740
little micro second probably

00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:57.539
yeah

00:23:57.539 --> 00:24:00.360
yeah you gotta if you can slow down the

00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:02.100
phenomenon you can see where the Choice

00:24:02.100 --> 00:24:04.500
points are and you can get a nose for it

00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:06.419
you know like

00:24:06.419 --> 00:24:09.059
where you you know

00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:12.980
yeah you know what's what's coming

00:24:13.320 --> 00:24:15.299
all right should we are there any other

00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:17.460
questions or should we look at the

00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:19.860
presentation PowerPoint it's a

00:24:19.860 --> 00:24:22.400
PowerPoint

00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.980
some people like PowerPoints

00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:27.840
I'm still stuck on the vertical

00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:30.200
Dimension sorry

00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.940
that was

00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.520
that was kind of powerful and intriguing

00:24:35.520 --> 00:24:37.740
just that little bit of it and I was

00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:40.020
like just

00:24:40.020 --> 00:24:42.480
but maybe it's for another time yeah

00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.880
it's just that vertical Dimension is not

00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.820
from here up the vertical Dimension goes

00:24:47.820 --> 00:24:49.260
all the way up and all the way down

00:24:49.260 --> 00:24:51.900
that's what it means vertical we've used

00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:54.240
turn that term into like

00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.940
from here to the transcendent

00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:58.740
that's all do you see what I'm saying

00:24:58.740 --> 00:25:01.380
like when people say oh they have uh the

00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:03.480
there's there's being smart and then

00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.039
there's the vertical Dimension which

00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:07.620
transcends self or transcends this but

00:25:07.620 --> 00:25:10.320
the vertical Dimension was never like

00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:12.659
from Baseline to that the vertical

00:25:12.659 --> 00:25:15.240
Dimension was from Baseline all the way

00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:16.919
up and all the way down that's the

00:25:16.919 --> 00:25:20.220
vertical Dimension you know

00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:22.280
um so

00:25:22.280 --> 00:25:25.620
and that's why our society is so hooked

00:25:25.620 --> 00:25:29.640
on like Ascension exactly so we can say

00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.400
yes there was this notion of a vertical

00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.159
Dimension and then get go about your

00:25:35.159 --> 00:25:37.020
business in the Traditions but the

00:25:37.020 --> 00:25:39.600
vertical Dimension wasn't just

00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:42.539
you know vertical higher they didn't say

00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:45.960
higher it's a vertical dimension

00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.080
get the difference

00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:52.500
right so uh yeah

00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:56.039
so uh yeah so then you know I'll be

00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.779
eating the Gilchrist like well they only

00:25:57.779 --> 00:25:59.520
talk about the left brain of the

00:25:59.520 --> 00:26:01.500
vertical Dimension at the right of the

00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:03.779
vertical Dimension whatever

00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:05.299
okay

00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:11.580
yeah okay good uh so uh we um what you

00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:14.520
wrote about the image imagining uh

00:26:14.520 --> 00:26:18.480
um casual conversation by Whitehead

00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:19.740
um

00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:22.880
that um

00:26:22.919 --> 00:26:26.700
how can we uh use our imagination to

00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:29.100
derive a theory of essence that accounts

00:26:29.100 --> 00:26:31.919
for our intuition and our experience our

00:26:31.919 --> 00:26:34.679
direct sense of what's there

00:26:34.679 --> 00:26:38.159
and I loved um what you said about

00:26:38.159 --> 00:26:40.159
um

00:26:42.840 --> 00:26:45.559
there must be some essential necessities

00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.799
and here it is this inquiring mind these

00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:52.919
feelings of curiosity and intimacy they

00:26:52.919 --> 00:26:56.640
must be adequate and applicable to them

00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:57.960
and

00:26:57.960 --> 00:26:59.400
but

00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:01.559
I mean

00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:04.020
I mean earlier you said something about

00:27:04.020 --> 00:27:05.760
uh

00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:07.919
what is this in the before Socrates

00:27:07.919 --> 00:27:09.539
thing

00:27:09.539 --> 00:27:12.120
no this is this is the the thing on

00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:15.059
intuition and you talked about one has

00:27:15.059 --> 00:27:17.700
to Endeavor to frame a coherent logical

00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:20.520
necessary system of General ideas in

00:27:20.520 --> 00:27:22.260
terms of which every element of our

00:27:22.260 --> 00:27:25.320
existence could could be in okay yeah

00:27:25.320 --> 00:27:28.200
but Justin I just want to say the notion

00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:31.020
that our capacities

00:27:31.020 --> 00:27:33.419
of uh including the feelings of

00:27:33.419 --> 00:27:37.140
curiosity and intimacy must be adequate

00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:41.100
and applicable to what is that's such an

00:27:41.100 --> 00:27:42.900
exciting thing it's such a different

00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:46.260
thing from this kind of hierarchical you

00:27:46.260 --> 00:27:48.380
know progression of logical system

00:27:48.380 --> 00:27:52.740
systematic thinking but coming back to

00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:56.340
um accessing our capacities curiosity

00:27:56.340 --> 00:28:00.200
and intimacy and through that

00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:04.380
trusting the adequacy of our capacities

00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:06.480
to

00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.600
um understand what is

00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:13.320
um yeah so Whitehead was kind of

00:28:13.320 --> 00:28:17.039
uh very bold because

00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.539
um he was

00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:20.120
he was

00:28:20.120 --> 00:28:23.640
announcing how much the imagination and

00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:26.940
intuition uh plays in science and that's

00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:29.279
potential for Science and yet he didn't

00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:30.720
want people to think well you just make

00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.000
it up he really thought science was

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.279
powerful also

00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.500
um but you know he had his buddy

00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:40.679
Einstein who thought like uh in all

00:28:40.679 --> 00:28:42.720
science starts in imagination and wonder

00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:44.940
and

00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:47.580
um so so

00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:50.400
what what Whitehead was saying is number

00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.860
one we don't have to be afraid that it's

00:28:52.860 --> 00:28:56.460
just a flight a fancy we're aware that

00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:59.520
we're imagining things

00:28:59.520 --> 00:29:01.559
um but also they're they're more

00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:03.779
rigorous ways we can have a certain

00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:06.120
rigor when we imagine but and that's

00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:07.860
called we're going to call it pragmatic

00:29:07.860 --> 00:29:10.200
imagination I'm actually going to show a

00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.299
screen on it

00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:15.720
um and uh because we can imagine all

00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.120
kinds of things that will flop or are

00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:21.000
stupid or just generally impossible or

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:23.340
and it's this this point you said you

00:29:23.340 --> 00:29:26.659
have to be genuinely curious about

00:29:26.659 --> 00:29:29.220
uh the situation

00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:32.039
and you have to be intimate with it so I

00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.100
can imagine that oh you know this is the

00:29:35.100 --> 00:29:37.320
Millennials I'll imagine that I have a

00:29:37.320 --> 00:29:41.659
farm and they buy 22 Acres of of spoiled

00:29:41.659 --> 00:29:45.539
uh cow pasture and it's so much work

00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:47.820
like or

00:29:47.820 --> 00:29:52.080
um you know some people recently in the

00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:54.240
liminal Webb bought 400 acres in Canada

00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.520
and they're going to build a

00:29:56.520 --> 00:29:59.580
food and farm sustainable Village you

00:29:59.580 --> 00:30:01.799
know and it's just it's just an imagine

00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:04.320
it's fantasy because that's not what you

00:30:04.320 --> 00:30:08.460
the land you know it's just fantasy and

00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:09.960
then they go up there and they realize

00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:12.960
like the land has no soil uh because

00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:16.020
it's you know it's uh Tundra it's

00:30:16.020 --> 00:30:18.240
Northern Tundra and only spruce trees

00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:20.659
can grow on it and it's Clay

00:30:20.659 --> 00:30:25.500
in the in the winter and it's heavy wet

00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:27.840
clay in the you know you can't

00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:30.480
you know you know so we want to use our

00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.419
imagination to imaginatively solve

00:30:33.419 --> 00:30:35.880
problems but

00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.760
there's a pragmatic aspect to it and the

00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:42.059
way to keep the pragmatic aspect is to

00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:44.340
stay intimate with what is so we're

00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:46.679
using our perceptual well this is what

00:30:46.679 --> 00:30:47.659
it is

00:30:47.659 --> 00:30:51.720
and with what it is we have to imagine

00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:54.179
what that can afford US that we can't

00:30:54.179 --> 00:30:55.980
see that's right in front of our very

00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:59.220
eyes you know and I'm going to tell a

00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:01.679
very simple story

00:31:01.679 --> 00:31:04.320
um and just to give you an idea and that

00:31:04.320 --> 00:31:05.520
is

00:31:05.520 --> 00:31:07.620
um I used to you know I grew up but we

00:31:07.620 --> 00:31:10.919
had vinyl records and they would always

00:31:10.919 --> 00:31:12.000
get

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.360
you know static and filled with dust and

00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:17.039
stuff and you would clean them and you'd

00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.860
buy this little tiny tube of record

00:31:19.860 --> 00:31:22.559
cleaner and pay like two dollars for it

00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.260
and it's basically rubbing alcohol right

00:31:25.260 --> 00:31:27.600
and then you just like

00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:29.820
it takes a certain amount of imagination

00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:32.059
to realize that's just rubbing alcohol

00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:39.500
right and so so what is that muscle that

00:31:39.500 --> 00:31:43.740
enables us to see outside the frame that

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.799
is is constraining us that's a that's

00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:50.460
that's an imaginative term

00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.860
um so

00:31:52.860 --> 00:31:57.120
um this is the end and the point is it

00:31:57.120 --> 00:31:59.640
has to be coupled to perception so when

00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:01.380
people go into a fantasy they're not

00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:03.000
they're not even you know they see a

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.919
horse and they're like oh who is the UIC

00:32:04.919 --> 00:32:06.600
and stuff and then they you know the

00:32:06.600 --> 00:32:08.340
horse bites them because they stop

00:32:08.340 --> 00:32:11.340
looking and participating in the present

00:32:11.340 --> 00:32:15.240
moment and then that's just fantasy and

00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:16.080
so

00:32:16.080 --> 00:32:18.899
you need to have both of those online at

00:32:18.899 --> 00:32:21.120
the same same time and then if you're

00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:22.919
using it to do science you have to have

00:32:22.919 --> 00:32:25.440
your mathematical abstractions online at

00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.659
the same time too I mean not that I can

00:32:27.659 --> 00:32:31.020
do that but but this is what's required

00:32:31.020 --> 00:32:32.279
so

00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.779
fantasy is fun uh um Imagination and art

00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:41.039
is much it's much more uh forgiving

00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:43.799
you know because it's less pragmatic but

00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:45.539
a lot of times when we use our

00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:48.000
imagination to do art then we come back

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.220
to a real world problem we find we're

00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:54.120
more imaginative right so that can be uh

00:32:54.120 --> 00:32:57.360
back back and forth so

00:32:57.360 --> 00:33:02.100
um yeah this is all in this imagination

00:33:02.100 --> 00:33:04.640
um area

00:33:07.580 --> 00:33:11.580
yes Suzanne

00:33:12.120 --> 00:33:13.799
um

00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:16.260
I've been wondering I'm not sure if I'm

00:33:16.260 --> 00:33:18.720
this is such a cool conversation thank

00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.679
you

00:33:19.679 --> 00:33:20.760
um

00:33:20.760 --> 00:33:24.840
I this is has not been sparked by

00:33:24.840 --> 00:33:26.640
anything here it's something I've been

00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.120
wondering a lot about this distinction

00:33:30.120 --> 00:33:32.179
that you're making between kind of mind

00:33:32.179 --> 00:33:34.799
and nature of mind

00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.419
and

00:33:36.419 --> 00:33:38.640
I'm just going to ask a really specific

00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:41.940
question because I think it might help

00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:43.440
me

00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.740
um and that is does my cat have a kind

00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:48.539
of mind

00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:52.380
yeah so to answer that question the

00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:55.019
starting point is what is the kind of

00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:58.279
mind an animal has

00:33:58.340 --> 00:34:01.860
the nature of the mind is the same and

00:34:01.860 --> 00:34:04.320
then there's something else that's

00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:08.399
different right so so like the cat

00:34:08.399 --> 00:34:10.500
doesn't have the same kind of mind we

00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:11.460
have

00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:14.580
but the nature of mind is the same

00:34:14.580 --> 00:34:16.639
okay

00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.619
exactly so let me just give a couple of

00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:22.379
things a a cat can simulate its

00:34:22.379 --> 00:34:24.599
environment in its mind

00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:27.419
right solve some problems without trial

00:34:27.419 --> 00:34:30.480
linear cat goes to sleep it can mash up

00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:32.879
and make hypothetical environments in

00:34:32.879 --> 00:34:34.800
its dreams

00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.839
um so this is something that we know is

00:34:36.839 --> 00:34:39.240
the nature of mind this is what it does

00:34:39.240 --> 00:34:42.599
a cat nature of psyche a cat knows

00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:46.700
that's my kids my my cave

00:34:46.700 --> 00:34:49.679
my territory I'm going to Market so the

00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.200
psyche is self-referential right so

00:34:52.200 --> 00:34:55.320
that's the nature of psyche is more like

00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:58.260
has to do with referencing the me and

00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:00.300
the mind and the mind is more like

00:35:00.300 --> 00:35:03.180
simulating the environment so we can

00:35:03.180 --> 00:35:04.520
start there

00:35:04.520 --> 00:35:08.099
we also know that when the cat simulates

00:35:08.099 --> 00:35:10.680
its environments it's using its external

00:35:10.680 --> 00:35:14.339
perception in sub-threshold ways that's

00:35:14.339 --> 00:35:17.820
what happens so when we get to awareness

00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.579
reflexivity this is certainly nothing of

00:35:20.579 --> 00:35:23.220
any other animal can do be aware that

00:35:23.220 --> 00:35:24.660
they're thinking with thought so be

00:35:24.660 --> 00:35:27.900
aware and we'll start to

00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:31.440
move toward this area that is seems to

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:34.140
be a prerogative of the person now it

00:35:34.140 --> 00:35:36.960
also seems to be that

00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:38.400
um that

00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.020
in terms of imagination that

00:35:42.020 --> 00:35:46.859
animals can cross types so like if it

00:35:46.859 --> 00:35:49.680
sees a bird and it learns that this

00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:52.560
particular kind of bird acts this way it

00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:54.900
can see that that's a bird imaginatively

00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:58.460
cross modal and and and and and

00:35:58.460 --> 00:36:01.380
assume or guess at least as a starting

00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:03.000
position that it's going to act a

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.300
certain way so you can see dogs do this

00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:07.800
like when they're exposed to something

00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:11.160
new they're going through and what's the

00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:13.380
best match so they're matching something

00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:16.320
that is like something else but not the

00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:18.000
same this is the beginning of

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.060
synesthesia right beginning of metaphor

00:36:21.060 --> 00:36:24.060
so we know that's the nature of mind so

00:36:24.060 --> 00:36:26.820
you can use this this work with your

00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:29.820
aunt and you know your cat

00:36:29.820 --> 00:36:32.700
to to understand so it always starts

00:36:32.700 --> 00:36:34.020
with

00:36:34.020 --> 00:36:36.180
the animal body

00:36:36.180 --> 00:36:38.520
if you want to start with the nature of

00:36:38.520 --> 00:36:40.020
mind and then

00:36:40.020 --> 00:36:44.160
how how is it different and also that

00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:48.060
um that the hypothesis is there's some

00:36:48.060 --> 00:36:50.700
Neuroscience that

00:36:50.700 --> 00:36:52.380
um you know we know our perceptions work

00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:54.900
together so when I'm looking for

00:36:54.900 --> 00:36:57.900
something and I can't quite see where

00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:00.119
that bird went I'm listening to rustling

00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.240
they all work together my body my

00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:05.359
gestures every

00:37:05.359 --> 00:37:10.260
experiential whole is a composite of

00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:13.200
many different participations of many

00:37:13.200 --> 00:37:16.920
different sense organs it seems that in

00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:19.320
people those are crossed more than in

00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.320
anatomically they're we have more

00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.780
connections between areas that are

00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:26.400
responsible for

00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:30.480
other perceptual areas than than normal

00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:33.079
which means we have more power of like

00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:37.140
saying it was a sweet sunrise

00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:39.300
what does that mean right like how can a

00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:41.520
sunrise be sweet

00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:44.820
um not because because and so that when

00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:47.220
I think of sweet and I think of Sunrise

00:37:47.220 --> 00:37:49.320
they cross each other somewhere there's

00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.540
an intersection somewhere in my felt

00:37:51.540 --> 00:37:52.380
sense

00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:55.980
and this is a hypothesis very hard to do

00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:58.440
this kind of research on animals but the

00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:01.020
hypothesis is that one of the things

00:38:01.020 --> 00:38:03.240
that make us special is not that we have

00:38:03.240 --> 00:38:05.880
more wires but our wires are crossed

00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:10.440
more now yes this is extremely important

00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:13.560
synesthesia for Tool making

00:38:13.560 --> 00:38:16.800
because we can say

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.720
that

00:38:18.720 --> 00:38:22.320
a stick is like my arm that I use to hit

00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.680
someone

00:38:25.380 --> 00:38:28.320
and a phone is like this you notice all

00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.359
of technology is built because something

00:38:30.359 --> 00:38:33.540
is like something else velcro is like

00:38:33.540 --> 00:38:35.640
best plant they found these plant

00:38:35.640 --> 00:38:39.119
stickies right that's like a glue

00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:41.520
and so what one could make an argument

00:38:41.520 --> 00:38:44.480
that I mean it's not trivial cross-modal

00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:50.460
uh integration is is huge in everything

00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:53.400
that makes us human

00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.599
um

00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:58.079
so uh

00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:01.079
to know to not be constrained by this

00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.440
one particular example of something we

00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:07.140
can see that that's like this

00:39:07.140 --> 00:39:09.420
and you notice this makes what makes the

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:10.980
people in the pop-up School quite

00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:13.859
eclectic that we can say one thing and

00:39:13.859 --> 00:39:17.040
they can see it's oh that is like this

00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:19.980
and it makes this deep Resonance of

00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:22.920
wholeness because we can see

00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:25.320
that you know we can create these

00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.079
metaphors where everything is

00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:31.859
we see this this deep connection and we

00:39:31.859 --> 00:39:33.780
say it's deep because

00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:37.140
it takes a certain type of insight to

00:39:37.140 --> 00:39:40.140
see how in what way they are connected

00:39:40.140 --> 00:39:43.079
now some we can problematize this Sam

00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.240
Harris problematizes that he says I

00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:47.280
could read the phone book and someone

00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.500
could see Connections in it and create a

00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:54.480
you know create a religion around it so

00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.599
there's some parameters around this but

00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.660
um

00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:03.020
yeah so a

00:40:03.020 --> 00:40:07.200
stone age man could see a stone I Know

00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:10.380
Rich had this hand ax and see it's like

00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:11.880
a pricker

00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:13.980
and that it could cut and then they

00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:17.160
could you know on and on and on so

00:40:17.160 --> 00:40:18.839
um

00:40:18.839 --> 00:40:23.599
yeah so this is all in the theory of

00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.700
synesthesia cross-modal thinking we'll

00:40:26.700 --> 00:40:29.400
get we'll build on this uh later but

00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:30.540
yeah

00:40:30.540 --> 00:40:32.520
good question

00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:36.540
is that related to then the empathic

00:40:36.540 --> 00:40:38.760
resonance where I can

00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:42.300
you know sense what it's like to be a

00:40:42.300 --> 00:40:44.640
tree inside of me is that part of the

00:40:44.640 --> 00:40:48.859
same it's exactly the same

00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:53.160
so it's a little tricky because when

00:40:53.160 --> 00:40:54.660
you're doing this work

00:40:54.660 --> 00:40:57.960
we would use the word empathic resonance

00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:01.020
or empathic projection sometimes and

00:41:01.020 --> 00:41:02.520
then people will say oh well that means

00:41:02.520 --> 00:41:04.980
you're just imagining it and but then we

00:41:04.980 --> 00:41:06.960
have to have this theory of habitat and

00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.800
habitats to tell the doubting Thomases

00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:14.220
that no yes it uses the imagination

00:41:14.220 --> 00:41:17.220
but because of the participation is

00:41:17.220 --> 00:41:19.980
always uh you know we and then we we

00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:22.800
talk about science it's like this so we

00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:25.859
don't mean imaginary

00:41:25.859 --> 00:41:29.400
um and and but it's very interesting and

00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.020
a story I always tell I know you've

00:41:31.020 --> 00:41:33.060
heard it many times but it's a useful

00:41:33.060 --> 00:41:34.740
story is this friend of mine who spent

00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:36.839
the summer here and we have a lot of

00:41:36.839 --> 00:41:39.960
these certain Summers we have a lot of

00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:42.599
cute rabbits and he'd walk down the

00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:44.760
driveway every morning and see this

00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.040
rabbit

00:41:46.040 --> 00:41:48.900
and he'd come back and oh I saw the

00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:50.760
rabbit again and he had a really good

00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.040
experience with it but one day he came

00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:55.200
back and he was like you know

00:41:55.200 --> 00:41:58.020
only today I saw the rabbit because he

00:41:58.020 --> 00:42:00.540
entered empathic resonance whereas

00:42:00.540 --> 00:42:02.040
before it was like oh look at the cute

00:42:02.040 --> 00:42:04.500
rabbit and it was imagination like the

00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.859
Disney version of the rabbit but now his

00:42:07.859 --> 00:42:11.099
mirror neurons or whatever and he could

00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:13.920
feel like the muscles in his nose like

00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:16.320
what the rabbit does and then it was

00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.880
like what it what is it like to be you

00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:22.440
um and so

00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:24.540
yeah so there so what is more

00:42:24.540 --> 00:42:27.240
imaginative uh because it's a Disney

00:42:27.240 --> 00:42:29.880
movie and that's imaginative and one is

00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:33.240
more imagination our imaginary is we're

00:42:33.240 --> 00:42:35.820
using imagine you know the empathic we

00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:37.440
could say

00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:39.780
um yeah so all of this you're

00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:42.300
understanding all the terms correctly

00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:45.180
doesn't matter if we get them always the

00:42:45.180 --> 00:42:49.400
same but this is the whole territory

00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:55.619
and maybe this presentation will help

00:42:55.619 --> 00:42:58.820
see how I did that

00:43:01.140 --> 00:43:02.339
foreign

00:43:02.339 --> 00:43:05.060
okay

00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:07.339
come on

00:43:07.339 --> 00:43:11.000
uh hide this thing

00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:13.079
hide it

00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:18.359
hide floating meaning controls all right

00:43:18.359 --> 00:43:23.040
so one thing we were noticing in our

00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:25.740
Workshop our exercises on what is it

00:43:25.740 --> 00:43:28.680
like to be you

00:43:28.680 --> 00:43:30.960
is that

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.660
um let's say someone okay if I said what

00:43:33.660 --> 00:43:36.300
is it like to be you right now most

00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:38.220
people checked in like with their body

00:43:38.220 --> 00:43:42.000
and got a felt sense right

00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.660
and then they had options that felt

00:43:45.660 --> 00:43:49.680
sense could be uh tied to a perceptual

00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:53.760
quality oh I feel like I'm cold all over

00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.940
I feel anxious nervous you know these

00:43:56.940 --> 00:43:58.920
are these are

00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:02.359
perceptions or Sensations we could go

00:44:02.359 --> 00:44:05.220
and give it

00:44:05.220 --> 00:44:08.760
some meaning that way sometimes it went

00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.640
to a word or a thing you know I feel

00:44:11.640 --> 00:44:13.740
like a lizard

00:44:13.740 --> 00:44:15.500
um sometimes

00:44:15.500 --> 00:44:18.200
only you know you're

00:44:18.200 --> 00:44:21.180
really feeling into the felt sense and

00:44:21.180 --> 00:44:23.400
you you explain it with like first a

00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:25.440
gesture right and then you have to look

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.540
at the gesture to get the more meaning

00:44:27.540 --> 00:44:29.339
out of the gesture

00:44:29.339 --> 00:44:31.859
and sometimes you know we didn't do this

00:44:31.859 --> 00:44:35.040
uh most of us didn't do this because we

00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:37.380
tried to stay more at the body level

00:44:37.380 --> 00:44:41.579
sometimes a general concept comes up

00:44:41.579 --> 00:44:42.960
and

00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.359
um you know if you're a facilitator in a

00:44:45.359 --> 00:44:47.280
general concept comes up you keep

00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:49.200
feeding it back in until you get

00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:51.720
something that's more like this at first

00:44:51.720 --> 00:44:54.000
right more close to the Bone does that

00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.420
make sense

00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.119
the general concept then often leads to

00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.160
a narrative how what is it like to be

00:45:02.160 --> 00:45:05.099
you today you know I just got on a um

00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:07.440
I'm frustrated I just got back from work

00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.119
and blah blah blah blah I'm already in

00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:10.380
concept space

00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:13.440
okay which is okay we're just noticing

00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:18.599
okay now what I want to say is that

00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:21.960
even though in many cases we talk about

00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:23.700
this work by starting with the felt

00:45:23.700 --> 00:45:26.640
sense it also could start with a gesture

00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:30.319
and the gesture could then

00:45:30.319 --> 00:45:33.900
help be attached to the felt sense like

00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:36.780
At first I can't I can't there's too

00:45:36.780 --> 00:45:39.060
much going on in me or I'm just kind of

00:45:39.060 --> 00:45:41.940
neutral or I can't identify what I feel

00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.940
like so the gesture then can like or

00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.160
small gestures we noticed

00:45:47.160 --> 00:45:48.900
can then

00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:52.020
show me their demonstrations of the felt

00:45:52.020 --> 00:45:55.380
sense so we could easily uh we could

00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:57.900
easily look at it as the gesture

00:45:57.900 --> 00:46:00.780
anchoring and so this is important for

00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:02.700
people who do this work because you

00:46:02.700 --> 00:46:04.500
don't want to get stuck into always

00:46:04.500 --> 00:46:07.440
asking for the felt sense you want to be

00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.380
very close so when we were standing

00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:12.420
around with the horses we were all in a

00:46:12.420 --> 00:46:15.420
certain kind of gesture

00:46:15.420 --> 00:46:18.720
and not really noticing is very gentle

00:46:18.720 --> 00:46:21.900
but you notice the gesture or the

00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:24.980
composition of the space Bodies In Space

00:46:24.980 --> 00:46:28.740
uh was different and then we would we

00:46:28.740 --> 00:46:32.339
went more into a felt sensor whatever

00:46:32.339 --> 00:46:35.880
and so these are all tied gesture could

00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.300
go into a particular word or thing

00:46:39.300 --> 00:46:42.540
um which you know could then move in

00:46:42.540 --> 00:46:44.599
different ways so we just want to

00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:47.960
understand that these are not

00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:50.579
uh you know this is very similar to the

00:46:50.579 --> 00:46:52.200
exercise we did in the first Festival

00:46:52.200 --> 00:46:54.680
where you could start with the energy

00:46:54.680 --> 00:46:57.720
and yeah so the assemblages can be

00:46:57.720 --> 00:47:00.540
looked at from any one of these mental

00:47:00.540 --> 00:47:03.540
models uh we don't want to be hung up on

00:47:03.540 --> 00:47:04.920
thinking

00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:08.880
that that this mental model is is any

00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:11.819
different than the other mental models

00:47:11.819 --> 00:47:14.160
okay so you could start with a

00:47:14.160 --> 00:47:17.339
particular word or a thing

00:47:17.339 --> 00:47:19.740
um and

00:47:19.740 --> 00:47:21.180
uh

00:47:21.180 --> 00:47:22.440
um

00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.660
you might even ask you know what do you

00:47:24.660 --> 00:47:28.140
think it's like to be that cat

00:47:28.140 --> 00:47:31.880
and you'll notice part of part of it is

00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:34.619
you're trying to figure out perceptual

00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:37.140
quality but it will bring in your felt

00:47:37.140 --> 00:47:38.880
sense because you're going to try to

00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:41.940
answer the question by rearranging your

00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:44.940
felt sense so it's just to notice that

00:47:44.940 --> 00:47:46.859
all of these you know I can't I don't

00:47:46.859 --> 00:47:48.240
know how to draw I'm going to show you

00:47:48.240 --> 00:47:50.160
I'm going to try to draw it like where

00:47:50.160 --> 00:47:52.800
they're all intersecting each other but

00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.800
there's no single entry point

00:47:55.800 --> 00:48:00.240
um and you can work with all of them

00:48:00.240 --> 00:48:01.980
and then there could be a perceptual

00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:03.839
quality like you could all of a sudden

00:48:03.839 --> 00:48:06.839
look up and see how blue you know those

00:48:06.839 --> 00:48:10.260
days when the sky is so blue

00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:13.940
and then this starts

00:48:13.940 --> 00:48:16.859
constellating the felt sense and maybe

00:48:16.859 --> 00:48:19.440
you start writing poems with all kinds

00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.440
of Concepts in them maybe that it makes

00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.720
makes you have an Insight around that's

00:48:24.720 --> 00:48:28.560
conceptually uh fashioned and so again

00:48:28.560 --> 00:48:31.579
just noticing that these are assemblages

00:48:31.579 --> 00:48:34.560
and they assemble in much the same way

00:48:34.560 --> 00:48:36.420
that our memories do right when we're

00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:38.760
looking for a memory we might start with

00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:41.160
a particular word or thing or a location

00:48:41.160 --> 00:48:44.220
and then the things get us get assembled

00:48:44.220 --> 00:48:48.420
it's much it's very much uh the same uh

00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:51.420
process

00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:55.260
and interestingly enough you can start

00:48:55.260 --> 00:48:57.839
with a general concept this works for

00:48:57.839 --> 00:48:59.700
Galaxy brains because that's where they

00:48:59.700 --> 00:49:04.800
start and you can ask them to call forth

00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.500
um some of these so it's more of what we

00:49:07.500 --> 00:49:10.500
would call a downward progression

00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:13.200
um but if you stop them from getting

00:49:13.200 --> 00:49:14.780
into narrative

00:49:14.780 --> 00:49:17.400
uh you can call forth some of these

00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:18.920
other things you have to be careful

00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:21.660
because if you say no but what doesn't

00:49:21.660 --> 00:49:24.839
feel like this you're going too fast

00:49:24.839 --> 00:49:27.060
territory they don't know you just have

00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:29.579
to the easiest way is to get from the

00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:31.619
general concept to the particular word

00:49:31.619 --> 00:49:33.960
or thing now I showed you a little clip

00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.079
from Elon who he did exactly this the

00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:39.780
BBC guy had a general concept that

00:49:39.780 --> 00:49:42.000
things were that hate speech was getting

00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:45.000
worse now that Elon took over and he

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.920
kept in saying give me an example give

00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:48.839
me an example give me and the guy

00:49:48.839 --> 00:49:51.000
couldn't give an example like it it was

00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.579
just and Elon called him out of

00:49:53.579 --> 00:49:54.300
it

00:49:54.300 --> 00:49:56.880
so you can move from the general concept

00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.000
into these others by asking for a

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:03.960
particular word or thing

00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:05.640
um and

00:50:05.640 --> 00:50:07.859
um that will that and then you ask oh

00:50:07.859 --> 00:50:10.560
that's interesting what does that thing

00:50:10.560 --> 00:50:13.200
feel like or what's you know what do you

00:50:13.200 --> 00:50:15.720
see or and you might then you might get

00:50:15.720 --> 00:50:17.819
some gesture once you get Gesture you

00:50:17.819 --> 00:50:20.040
can say this what is that what does that

00:50:20.040 --> 00:50:22.260
feel like for you

00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:25.319
this one's tricky because

00:50:25.319 --> 00:50:28.440
you gotta connect fast enough so then

00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.599
you get caught in narrative too right

00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:32.160
and you can't just say but what does it

00:50:32.160 --> 00:50:33.780
feel like because

00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:35.819
uh

00:50:35.819 --> 00:50:39.000
they don't really have access to that

00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:39.780
um

00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:42.780
in many cases at first

00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:45.720
okay does that make sense now

00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:47.940
so here we have starting with the felt

00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:50.160
sense you could go into a perceptual

00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:52.140
quality and then it can go to any of

00:50:52.140 --> 00:50:54.480
those and whoops

00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.760
and then uh let's say go as a particular

00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:58.440
thing or word and then it can go with

00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:00.180
any of those and then if it goes to

00:51:00.180 --> 00:51:02.700
gesture it can go to any of those in a

00:51:02.700 --> 00:51:04.680
general concept and then these are all

00:51:04.680 --> 00:51:07.859
linked back to each other also which I

00:51:07.859 --> 00:51:10.260
found impossible to animate

00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:12.300
um but it's really more

00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:14.579
um so like I can rearrange this so this

00:51:14.579 --> 00:51:16.859
one's in the middle and and on and on

00:51:16.859 --> 00:51:18.900
and on but just to understand that

00:51:18.900 --> 00:51:20.940
there's access

00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:21.900
um

00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:24.960
um in daydreaming it happens like okay

00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:26.520
and then you're here and then you're

00:51:26.520 --> 00:51:29.160
there they're all they're all uh

00:51:29.160 --> 00:51:30.599
synesthetically

00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:33.000
um they tickle each other right they

00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.040
tickle each other and some of it's sub

00:51:35.040 --> 00:51:38.819
threshold and some of it if you're an

00:51:38.819 --> 00:51:41.579
Italian a lot of it's in gesture

00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:44.760
um so depending upon what is more has

00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:47.339
more energy or more threshold uh

00:51:47.339 --> 00:51:50.040
capacity for you

00:51:50.040 --> 00:51:52.200
does that make sense

00:51:52.200 --> 00:51:55.579
are there any questions

00:52:03.240 --> 00:52:04.440
stuff

00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:07.559
all right yes David all right let me

00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:11.480
stop share hold on now I've gotta

00:52:12.780 --> 00:52:14.700
oh see

00:52:14.700 --> 00:52:18.440
I was just saying goodbye to John

00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:23.300
oh you were just saying oh bye

00:52:23.359 --> 00:52:26.040
no I didn't mean that

00:52:26.040 --> 00:52:29.119
dogs heard me

00:52:30.240 --> 00:52:32.760
okay so that's just an example of I

00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:35.040
think what was you know what we saw

00:52:35.040 --> 00:52:36.540
happening

00:52:36.540 --> 00:52:38.280
um

00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:39.960
happening

00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:44.599
um in in some of our exercises

00:52:44.819 --> 00:52:47.420
foreign

00:52:48.740 --> 00:52:51.680
would you say this is talking about

00:52:51.680 --> 00:52:54.780
synesthesia or is what what's the

00:52:54.780 --> 00:52:57.480
overarching you know

00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:01.319
um descriptor of what all this beautiful

00:53:01.319 --> 00:53:02.240
um

00:53:02.240 --> 00:53:05.640
whatever you call them yeah it is it is

00:53:05.640 --> 00:53:09.300
synesthesia because you go from gesture

00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:13.859
to to a felt sense or you can go a

00:53:13.859 --> 00:53:18.240
gesture and I'm like this this is like

00:53:18.240 --> 00:53:20.819
this is like sweet so that's a

00:53:20.819 --> 00:53:22.800
perceptual quality but

00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.920
well it doesn't taste sweet but does it

00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.040
mean you know so we can move around all

00:53:29.040 --> 00:53:31.020
of those because there's some kind of

00:53:31.020 --> 00:53:33.599
synesthesia but within those movements

00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:36.300
you'll notice there's there's a lot of

00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:39.900
synesthesia also now

00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:42.000
um

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.760
there are people who who have more and

00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:49.500
less synesthesia and so they can get

00:53:49.500 --> 00:53:53.760
um once you know they might go from word

00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:56.280
to gesture to work like kids do that

00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:58.500
they're just like they'll gesture what

00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:00.240
they feel like and then they'll send a

00:54:00.240 --> 00:54:02.040
word to it and then they'll gesture they

00:54:02.040 --> 00:54:05.160
don't have a lot of cross modal richness

00:54:05.160 --> 00:54:06.780
yet

00:54:06.780 --> 00:54:10.920
um different cultures have less cross

00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:14.940
modal uh richness in their language so

00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:18.240
German has lots of cross-modal riches in

00:54:18.240 --> 00:54:20.819
the language because they just take five

00:54:20.819 --> 00:54:22.500
words and they put them all together

00:54:22.500 --> 00:54:26.000
like sprock or fuel you know which is

00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:29.940
language feeling you know and so a lot

00:54:29.940 --> 00:54:32.040
of these rich philosophical terms in

00:54:32.040 --> 00:54:34.380
German which is why Heidegger said you

00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:36.240
can't do philosophy in any other

00:54:36.240 --> 00:54:38.339
language

00:54:38.339 --> 00:54:41.280
um whereas the Scandinavians don't have

00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.579
that kind of Rich language so they would

00:54:44.579 --> 00:54:48.900
gesture more or image more or just

00:54:48.900 --> 00:54:51.960
um you know

00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:53.819
they're more they're much more Concrete

00:54:53.819 --> 00:54:58.200
in their the way that they uh model

00:54:58.200 --> 00:55:00.420
their experience is much more Concrete

00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:04.140
in mechanical or than than

00:55:04.140 --> 00:55:07.079
um some of the Richer richer languages

00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:10.200
uh so Lenny Rachel Anderson

00:55:10.200 --> 00:55:12.720
if you saw my interview with her you

00:55:12.720 --> 00:55:15.599
noticed that she sets up and she's very

00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:17.880
Concrete in what is needed and what is

00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.339
required and she gives examples it was

00:55:20.339 --> 00:55:23.640
very I never was able to get her to

00:55:23.640 --> 00:55:26.460
imagine

00:55:26.460 --> 00:55:29.160
something outside of what is next you

00:55:29.160 --> 00:55:31.380
could imagine small little changes in

00:55:31.380 --> 00:55:33.839
society but she's not like Zack Stein

00:55:33.839 --> 00:55:36.839
who's like here's five social Miracles

00:55:36.839 --> 00:55:42.240
right so uh so that so you can start to

00:55:42.240 --> 00:55:43.680
see

00:55:43.680 --> 00:55:47.099
um who has more cross modal synesthesia

00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:50.220
than than any other person I had a

00:55:50.220 --> 00:55:51.900
conversation today with Jim rutt

00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:54.240
conversation on Twitter or tweet where

00:55:54.240 --> 00:55:56.099
he was complaining about the eating does

00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:57.660
everybody know kind of what the eating

00:55:57.660 --> 00:55:59.960
is

00:56:01.520 --> 00:56:03.960
he read it and he's like it's stupid I

00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:05.400
don't understand I'm like you don't read

00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:07.500
the EJ like

00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:10.079
and then you consult it and then I said

00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:12.180
you you and you won't understand the

00:56:12.180 --> 00:56:14.099
answers if you don't have cross modal

00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:16.380
synesthesia what does the water

00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:18.540
underneath the mountain why is that

00:56:18.540 --> 00:56:21.240
different than the mountain on you know

00:56:21.240 --> 00:56:23.640
underneath the water

00:56:23.640 --> 00:56:26.460
um and you know and he's like so you

00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:29.280
know what he did he took he took it and

00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:30.500
he asked Jack

00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:33.119
chatpt to explain it to him I'm like

00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:37.260
that's even more stupid Jam because chat

00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:39.540
GPT doesn't have gross hormonal

00:56:39.540 --> 00:56:43.260
synesthesia so

00:56:43.260 --> 00:56:47.640
um so so yeah so

00:56:47.640 --> 00:56:50.220
that's I guess what we're talking about

00:56:50.220 --> 00:56:51.480
um and

00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:54.980
um we can make some claims about

00:56:55.200 --> 00:56:57.420
in fact I am going to be interviewed by

00:56:57.420 --> 00:56:59.760
sorry you for all tomorrow about Ai and

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:01.680
this is exactly the line I'm gonna make

00:57:01.680 --> 00:57:04.319
is that uh

00:57:04.319 --> 00:57:06.319
um

00:57:06.319 --> 00:57:09.900
that this is what singular to people

00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:11.940
it's not what machines are good at doing

00:57:11.940 --> 00:57:14.220
and I'll try to make a claim of always

00:57:14.220 --> 00:57:16.500
going to save Humanity I don't know I

00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:19.260
have to use my imagination

00:57:19.260 --> 00:57:20.700
um okay

00:57:20.700 --> 00:57:21.960
so

00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:24.540
it's three o'clock where do we want to

00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:28.520
go from here uh do we want to go into

00:57:28.520 --> 00:57:31.640
looking at two more slides on pragmatic

00:57:31.640 --> 00:57:36.240
imagination or do we want to do an

00:57:36.240 --> 00:57:38.520
exercise Let's do an exercise I'll

00:57:38.520 --> 00:57:40.920
introduce pragmatic imagination next

00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:44.700
time and to do this exercise we have

00:57:44.700 --> 00:57:48.119
several we have choice

00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:51.960
choices mostly because oh good Liz can

00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:54.839
play too mostly because I couldn't

00:57:54.839 --> 00:57:57.380
decide

00:57:57.839 --> 00:58:00.960
you know each one of these modules

00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:05.099
could be like a whole year course uh but

00:58:05.099 --> 00:58:07.500
that's okay we're getting everything we

00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:09.359
need I believe

00:58:09.359 --> 00:58:12.180
all right so

00:58:12.180 --> 00:58:16.380
I'm going to put a link for you all to

00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:20.400
go to and it should work for everyone I

00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:23.400
haven't used this in a long time but

00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:26.660
it should work

00:58:28.200 --> 00:58:30.319
um

00:58:32.780 --> 00:58:36.440
just takes a little

00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:41.240
okay share

00:58:43.500 --> 00:58:45.420
um

00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:50.000
invite as the editor

00:58:50.160 --> 00:58:53.520
anyone can

00:58:53.520 --> 00:58:58.760
comment or okay and then uh

00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:01.619
invite link

00:59:01.619 --> 00:59:04.020
and you should be able to go to this if

00:59:04.020 --> 00:59:08.480
not I will share my screen instead

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:10.799
maybe I'll just share my screen does it

00:59:10.799 --> 00:59:13.079
make any difference

00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:15.660
I'm going to share my screen instead

00:59:15.660 --> 00:59:18.900
this this program is sort of needs a lot

00:59:18.900 --> 00:59:21.240
of processing

00:59:21.240 --> 00:59:24.140
speed okay

00:59:24.720 --> 00:59:27.359
and then I'll I'll give you the link

00:59:27.359 --> 00:59:29.940
in the show notes and you can play with

00:59:29.940 --> 00:59:33.319
it so can you see this big screen

00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:36.980
yes

00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:41.760
no yes and it's black uh there it is

00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:42.839
okay

00:59:42.839 --> 00:59:46.020
so we can there's two things we can play

00:59:46.020 --> 00:59:49.020
with here we can play with

00:59:49.020 --> 00:59:50.040
um

00:59:50.040 --> 00:59:53.579
cross cross model synesthesia these are

00:59:53.579 --> 00:59:55.559
this is

00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:56.460
um

00:59:56.460 --> 00:59:58.920
does anyone know what these are

00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:02.040
Susan D'Amato what if he was here

01:00:02.040 --> 01:00:05.640
these are exercises Kandinsky the famous

01:00:05.640 --> 01:00:08.520
artist Candice dinsky worked on for

01:00:08.520 --> 01:00:10.920
himself

01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:11.579
um

01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:14.660
to understand

01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.160
um how space

01:00:17.160 --> 01:00:19.280
line and point

01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:24.299
what they meant what was the synesthetic

01:00:24.299 --> 01:00:28.700
language of space line and point

01:00:28.859 --> 01:00:32.480
so we could work with these

01:00:32.819 --> 01:00:37.260
or we could work with words so this is a

01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:39.299
highly synesthetic

01:00:39.299 --> 01:00:43.619
uh poem that we could try to see if we

01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:45.420
follow the meaning of it did people read

01:00:45.420 --> 01:00:48.900
the on being blue excerpt

01:00:48.900 --> 01:00:51.540
yeah so if you like that then that would

01:00:51.540 --> 01:00:55.619
be working with the uh words

01:00:55.619 --> 01:00:57.540
um but if you're feeling like you'd

01:00:57.540 --> 01:00:59.880
rather work with

01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:04.380
um images maybe maybe uh

01:01:04.380 --> 01:01:08.099
we can work with diff maybe we have two

01:01:08.099 --> 01:01:09.980
groups that work with two different ones

01:01:09.980 --> 01:01:13.859
depending upon uh what

01:01:13.859 --> 01:01:17.240
Jesus now what oh okay

01:01:17.240 --> 01:01:20.819
depending upon how many people want to

01:01:20.819 --> 01:01:24.079
work with what

01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:30.119
what does what how are we feeling about

01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:32.460
this

01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:35.040
I think we should work with the words

01:01:35.040 --> 01:01:37.619
because people were quite conceptual

01:01:37.619 --> 01:01:39.980
today

01:01:40.940 --> 01:01:43.260
you want to work with the images you

01:01:43.260 --> 01:01:44.520
over there

01:01:44.520 --> 01:01:47.819
yeah that's where it feels okay all

01:01:47.819 --> 01:01:49.500
right you see

01:01:49.500 --> 01:01:52.079
that's one way to get a decision by

01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:55.380
picking the wrong one it and and no it's

01:01:55.380 --> 01:01:58.079
a better way because people can sense

01:01:58.079 --> 01:02:00.299
more of what they don't want to do than

01:02:00.299 --> 01:02:02.579
uh if I had said that and you're all

01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:04.559
okay I wouldn't have known for sure this

01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:07.619
we want to do okay so

01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:12.440
um so um how am I going to do this

01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:15.480
I guess what I'll do I will give you the

01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:19.200
the link and see if it works for you and

01:02:19.200 --> 01:02:21.960
if it doesn't work then I'll just ask me

01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:23.880
which one

01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:26.400
you want to focus on so what you want to

01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.000
do is pick

01:02:29.460 --> 01:02:31.200
you want to look at these you see what

01:02:31.200 --> 01:02:34.380
they are like this is A1 and this is A2

01:02:34.380 --> 01:02:36.540
and this is A3 this is how you identify

01:02:36.540 --> 01:02:38.400
them

01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:40.079
does that make sense

01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:42.480
like if I want to say I I'm playing I'm

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:44.760
using this one then it's B5

01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:47.640
this is science

01:02:47.640 --> 01:02:52.500
okay so okay all right so can you so can

01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:53.400
you

01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:56.099
um if you click on that one

01:02:56.099 --> 01:02:58.200
double click on it it should get big for

01:02:58.200 --> 01:03:01.160
you let's see what happens

01:03:03.420 --> 01:03:05.660
oh

01:03:05.660 --> 01:03:08.819
does did the screen change for you

01:03:08.819 --> 01:03:10.440
no

01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:13.579
like if you double click

01:03:16.220 --> 01:03:19.020
all right and then you can scroll out

01:03:19.020 --> 01:03:21.780
this is going to be a disaster

01:03:21.780 --> 01:03:28.099
um okay so uh how do I get these

01:03:30.540 --> 01:03:33.839
what we want to do is we want to talk

01:03:33.839 --> 01:03:37.200
about what they feel like

01:03:37.200 --> 01:03:39.319
um

01:03:39.839 --> 01:03:44.359
but the question is is how do I get them

01:03:44.640 --> 01:03:47.700
you can copy as image and you can copy

01:03:47.700 --> 01:03:49.940
the image you want to work with

01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:51.839
onto

01:03:51.839 --> 01:03:54.000
um your computer I think

01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:57.440
how should we do this

01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:00.540
I I think if you just say that we want

01:04:00.540 --> 01:04:04.260
to work on A1 or B3 or whatever

01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:06.720
um each person can just zoom in and out

01:04:06.720 --> 01:04:10.680
like infinitely on their own screen

01:04:10.680 --> 01:04:13.020
okay but if you zoom in on one does it

01:04:13.020 --> 01:04:15.540
change my screen too no I don't think so

01:04:15.540 --> 01:04:17.640
no we were zoomed in on A1 for like oh

01:04:17.640 --> 01:04:21.359
okay so excellent so what you want to do

01:04:21.359 --> 01:04:24.119
thank you so what you want to do is you

01:04:24.119 --> 01:04:26.099
want to pick one and if you double click

01:04:26.099 --> 01:04:28.799
sometimes you triple click it it'll zoom

01:04:28.799 --> 01:04:30.359
in

01:04:30.359 --> 01:04:36.540
and you can work with that one and so

01:04:36.540 --> 01:04:41.040
um not every okay so Sandra Zoe is in

01:04:41.040 --> 01:04:44.880
um and who else is in

01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:48.359
bunny I can't zoom in

01:04:48.359 --> 01:04:51.960
okay where are you are you are you on

01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:54.319
the board

01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:58.440
I'm on my own little laptop but I can't

01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:02.000
did you click on the link

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:07.640
where's the link it's in the chat oh

01:05:13.650 --> 01:05:17.079
[Music]

01:05:22.520 --> 01:05:26.160
thank you

01:05:26.160 --> 01:05:30.440
I think it might have been confusing

01:05:32.160 --> 01:05:36.000
are you in uh Phoebe

01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:39.839
yes I'm trying to find it but

01:05:39.839 --> 01:05:42.440
the link is in the chat

01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:45.119
I got onto something called Miro I don't

01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:47.160
want that do I that's that's where it's

01:05:47.160 --> 01:05:50.720
on it's an Interactive

01:05:50.819 --> 01:05:53.220
so then it's asking me what's my role

01:05:53.220 --> 01:05:55.859
and have I ever used mural before just

01:05:55.859 --> 01:05:58.500
click out of that okay I don't know how

01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:00.660
to click out of that oh

01:06:00.660 --> 01:06:03.420
okay so what we're going to do is we're

01:06:03.420 --> 01:06:05.940
going to make rooms with the people who

01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:08.240
are

01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:11.480
um

01:06:11.839 --> 01:06:14.339
I'd say you have to give people the

01:06:14.339 --> 01:06:16.380
authorization to share screen because I

01:06:16.380 --> 01:06:17.940
can't get into anything it's asking me

01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:20.700
to sign in I know I just realized that

01:06:20.700 --> 01:06:22.260
so

01:06:22.260 --> 01:06:23.660
um

01:06:23.660 --> 01:06:27.180
okay so tell me which ones you want and

01:06:27.180 --> 01:06:28.740
I will

01:06:28.740 --> 01:06:30.420
um

01:06:30.420 --> 01:06:34.079
put I'll put four on my screen and

01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:39.119
you'll will have four breakout rooms so

01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:39.900
um

01:06:39.900 --> 01:06:42.599
so who wants to run a breakout Sandra

01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:44.819
you're in which one do you want for your

01:06:44.819 --> 01:06:47.059
group

01:06:47.520 --> 01:06:51.420
I'm gonna go downstairs Sandra

01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:55.079
Magdalena which one do you want to work

01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:57.980
with in your group

01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:03.420
back to me C6 C6 for Sandra Matt

01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:04.980
Magdalena which one do you want to work

01:07:04.980 --> 01:07:05.819
in

01:07:05.819 --> 01:07:09.359
um are we talking about images or yeah

01:07:09.359 --> 01:07:12.180
pick an image Anna and salt pick one

01:07:12.180 --> 01:07:15.799
also the jolt group

01:07:15.799 --> 01:07:18.420
okay how about

01:07:18.420 --> 01:07:23.299
and when I'm on right now so we

01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:26.059
yeah we're in pretty much

01:07:26.059 --> 01:07:30.839
C3 uh that's all you want it what A1 D1

01:07:30.839 --> 01:07:34.260
E1 Zoey which one do you want do you

01:07:34.260 --> 01:07:37.140
like dog one and Liz which one do you

01:07:37.140 --> 01:07:39.260
want

01:07:45.359 --> 01:07:47.400
Liz which one do you want it's the last

01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:49.640
one

01:07:52.440 --> 01:07:57.260
sorry I was muted A4 A4 okay

01:08:02.299 --> 01:08:05.180
stop sure

01:08:05.180 --> 01:08:10.099
and what I'm going to do is

01:08:10.260 --> 01:08:12.859
this

01:08:23.100 --> 01:08:26.100
C6

01:08:30.779 --> 01:08:34.100
all right this is

01:08:34.440 --> 01:08:37.140
okay everybody get out get out of it so

01:08:37.140 --> 01:08:40.460
it's not so slow

01:08:50.400 --> 01:08:53.400
foreign

01:09:04.319 --> 01:09:06.980
okay

01:09:07.739 --> 01:09:10.640
it's not gonna work

01:09:15.020 --> 01:09:18.500
oh

01:09:56.780 --> 01:10:00.120
all right I got I just realized

01:10:00.120 --> 01:10:02.340
something all right so what you're going

01:10:02.340 --> 01:10:04.820
to do

01:10:04.860 --> 01:10:06.300
is

01:10:06.300 --> 01:10:09.719
you're all going to go to here

01:10:09.719 --> 01:10:12.500
it's much better

01:10:16.679 --> 01:10:19.739
so you won't have to share your screen

01:10:19.739 --> 01:10:22.620
and you're just going to go in and

01:10:22.620 --> 01:10:24.420
choose one you're going to talk about as

01:10:24.420 --> 01:10:25.920
is your group

01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:26.940
all right

01:10:26.940 --> 01:10:30.300
and you're going to try to figure out

01:10:30.300 --> 01:10:34.500
what different words or sounds or

01:10:34.500 --> 01:10:40.260
interpret this being or this uh sense of

01:10:40.260 --> 01:10:42.480
who this thing is and what I would do is

01:10:42.480 --> 01:10:45.540
have people work for five minutes or so

01:10:45.540 --> 01:10:48.120
or 10 minutes alone first and see if you

01:10:48.120 --> 01:10:50.460
get some

01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:52.199
what how much difference and how much

01:10:52.199 --> 01:10:54.300
sameness that you get

01:10:54.300 --> 01:10:56.640
okay does everybody have the Google Doc

01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:59.159
open I forgot I did that

01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:01.080
I'm getting I need access to the

01:11:01.080 --> 01:11:03.179
document

01:11:03.179 --> 01:11:06.620
okay hold on

01:11:07.050 --> 01:11:09.900
[Music]

01:11:09.900 --> 01:11:12.540
the link

01:11:12.540 --> 01:11:14.699
copy link

01:11:14.699 --> 01:11:19.340
yeah it works now okay cool

01:11:19.679 --> 01:11:21.239
all right do you understand the new

01:11:21.239 --> 01:11:23.780
instructions

01:11:24.780 --> 01:11:27.000
so I'm just going to put you in breakout

01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:29.640
groups you look through the slides you

01:11:29.640 --> 01:11:33.900
decide on one and uh try to decide

01:11:33.900 --> 01:11:37.380
quickly and then have people think about

01:11:37.380 --> 01:11:39.179
it

01:11:39.179 --> 01:11:42.000
um Kandinsky put a lot of

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:42.719
um

01:11:42.719 --> 01:11:45.659
uh attention into this you might want to

01:11:45.659 --> 01:11:47.880
work with two if you find it difficult

01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:50.940
like what one is saying this versus that

01:11:50.940 --> 01:11:52.920
one saying that

01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:55.380
um and you're just trying to figure out

01:11:55.380 --> 01:11:57.540
like what's happening between you and

01:11:57.540 --> 01:11:58.739
the image

01:11:58.739 --> 01:12:01.739
such that these associations are coming

01:12:01.739 --> 01:12:04.620
up to understand this synesthetic

01:12:04.620 --> 01:12:06.659
quality

01:12:06.659 --> 01:12:08.880
does that make sense we'll give you a

01:12:08.880 --> 01:12:12.179
half an hour uh

01:12:12.179 --> 01:12:15.860
and let's see

01:12:27.300 --> 01:12:30.860
all right so

01:12:31.620 --> 01:12:34.679
enjoy your conversation oh options

01:12:34.679 --> 01:12:38.480
options where's the options

01:12:38.580 --> 01:12:40.440
options

01:12:40.440 --> 01:12:43.219
30 minutes

01:12:44.340 --> 01:12:46.560
you can do in a different way you can

01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:50.460
scroll through and have some general

01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:53.280
um General comments too

01:12:53.280 --> 01:12:56.520
um if if certain ones don't

01:12:56.520 --> 01:12:58.860
um become more Salient for you all right

01:12:58.860 --> 01:13:00.840
enjoy your conversation and remember

01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:04.320
Kandinsky put a lot of uh they're not

01:13:04.320 --> 01:13:06.780
just random he worked on this very

01:13:06.780 --> 01:13:09.060
seriously for several years so keep that

01:13:09.060 --> 01:13:11.420
in mind

01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:39.120
foreign

01:13:44.820 --> 01:13:47.420
foreign

01:14:54.300 --> 01:14:56.540
foreign

01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:43.940
did somebody please be there

01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:51.560
uh-oh what happened there

01:16:01.320 --> 01:16:04.159
thank you

01:16:07.560 --> 01:16:10.100
foreign

01:17:28.699 --> 01:17:31.760
thank you

01:17:59.940 --> 01:18:02.780
thank you

01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:31.159
so much

01:18:38.100 --> 01:18:40.760
this is

01:19:43.620 --> 01:19:46.620
foreign

01:21:36.719 --> 01:21:38.159
foreign

01:21:38.159 --> 01:21:40.940
foreign

01:22:55.080 --> 01:22:57.260
okay

01:24:08.420 --> 01:24:11.420
thank you

01:24:35.300 --> 01:24:38.300
thank you

01:25:17.699 --> 01:25:20.699
foreign

01:26:11.820 --> 01:26:14.820
foreign

01:26:37.860 --> 01:26:40.400
foreign

01:27:54.840 --> 01:27:57.500
foreign

01:28:55.460 --> 01:28:58.550
[Music]

01:29:13.139 --> 01:29:15.679
foreign

01:30:20.580 --> 01:30:23.179
foreign

01:31:48.659 --> 01:31:51.380
okay

01:31:53.100 --> 01:31:57.139
how did we do Joey how did you do

01:32:00.179 --> 01:32:02.360
I like your hair that way by the way

01:32:02.360 --> 01:32:05.600
thank you

01:32:08.520 --> 01:32:11.100
we were very similar I mean there was

01:32:11.100 --> 01:32:13.020
there were some different things that

01:32:13.020 --> 01:32:15.540
came in but every time someone said

01:32:15.540 --> 01:32:18.060
something that I hadn't grasped I was

01:32:18.060 --> 01:32:22.639
like oh yeah that was there too

01:32:24.780 --> 01:32:27.900
so it was very interesting how how they

01:32:27.900 --> 01:32:28.980
would like

01:32:28.980 --> 01:32:31.380
there were feelings

01:32:31.380 --> 01:32:32.880
happening

01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:38.580
or they were like feelings happening hmm

01:32:42.300 --> 01:32:46.560
if I showed this to Susan's cat do you

01:32:46.560 --> 01:32:50.100
think there would be feelings happening

01:32:50.100 --> 01:32:52.020
well there'd probably be feelings

01:32:52.020 --> 01:32:54.900
happening around the physical thing but

01:32:54.900 --> 01:32:56.760
do you think that would be feelings

01:32:56.760 --> 01:32:58.560
happening

01:32:58.560 --> 01:33:01.560
no

01:33:06.139 --> 01:33:10.760
I don't know that sorry

01:33:10.760 --> 01:33:13.139
I was Melissa

01:33:13.139 --> 01:33:15.120
I recognize the pattern from childhood

01:33:15.120 --> 01:33:16.739
that I did not remember

01:33:16.739 --> 01:33:20.179
which is I can't do this

01:33:20.179 --> 01:33:24.179
futility resignation

01:33:25.260 --> 01:33:27.719
I mean I started with well I started

01:33:27.719 --> 01:33:29.760
with a pine force of that but I ended up

01:33:29.760 --> 01:33:32.580
entropy it's like there was order now

01:33:32.580 --> 01:33:35.639
there's chaos I can't do this and the

01:33:35.639 --> 01:33:38.040
ones that you work with

01:33:38.040 --> 01:33:42.620
23 I think it was 23 let me

01:33:42.960 --> 01:33:45.620
let me see oh that's an

01:33:49.260 --> 01:33:51.440
interesting

01:33:51.719 --> 01:33:54.719
well that recognition of um I can't do

01:33:54.719 --> 01:33:56.699
this that's still with me is was very

01:33:56.699 --> 01:33:59.840
valuable yeah

01:34:02.699 --> 01:34:04.760
yeah

01:34:06.139 --> 01:34:09.540
what does he say about 23

01:34:09.540 --> 01:34:13.159
and now it's very hard to

01:34:13.260 --> 01:34:15.000
I want to wait I don't want to waste

01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:18.120
people's time so there's that one

01:34:18.120 --> 01:34:22.760
I think it's this one he says

01:34:25.199 --> 01:34:28.260
the same complex oh because it's coming

01:34:28.260 --> 01:34:32.760
off of 22. so this is 22. and then it's

01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:34.320
the same

01:34:34.320 --> 01:34:37.080
made more complicated by independent

01:34:37.080 --> 01:34:39.800
spiral

01:34:43.400 --> 01:34:45.780
you know I think I think what you're

01:34:45.780 --> 01:34:50.100
saying Justin and I and I think this is

01:34:50.100 --> 01:34:53.580
this is territory to explore

01:34:53.580 --> 01:34:56.040
because on the one hand I'm not asking

01:34:56.040 --> 01:34:58.320
for psychological projection

01:34:58.320 --> 01:35:01.260
right and I think a lot of times when

01:35:01.260 --> 01:35:03.900
you're a kid or these these things are

01:35:03.900 --> 01:35:05.340
presented

01:35:05.340 --> 01:35:07.860
they're kind of asking for psychological

01:35:07.860 --> 01:35:09.719
projection

01:35:09.719 --> 01:35:12.060
and

01:35:12.060 --> 01:35:13.620
um

01:35:13.620 --> 01:35:16.199
we can do that like but you feel like

01:35:16.199 --> 01:35:18.719
you're just cynical of making it up or

01:35:18.719 --> 01:35:19.920
something right

01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:25.159
and so the interesting thing is is

01:35:26.340 --> 01:35:28.340
um

01:35:31.560 --> 01:35:34.080
yeah go back to it and notice how your

01:35:34.080 --> 01:35:36.860
eye travels

01:35:37.260 --> 01:35:39.540
so I think that feeling for you like I

01:35:39.540 --> 01:35:42.120
can't do it is is because you think

01:35:42.120 --> 01:35:44.340
other I mean other people are doing it

01:35:44.340 --> 01:35:48.020
differently but like

01:35:52.340 --> 01:35:55.679
it's more if I'm I'm looking at no it's

01:35:55.679 --> 01:35:57.060
more like

01:35:57.060 --> 01:35:59.219
I come down here

01:35:59.219 --> 01:36:01.620
they know something's there but my eye

01:36:01.620 --> 01:36:03.840
keeps traveling here

01:36:03.840 --> 01:36:06.659
that's interesting

01:36:06.659 --> 01:36:08.219
for you it might be different you might

01:36:08.219 --> 01:36:10.199
come down here and everything's in here

01:36:10.199 --> 01:36:13.440
and that's interesting and so what we're

01:36:13.440 --> 01:36:16.440
really asking remember we said that the

01:36:16.440 --> 01:36:18.600
imagination you have to be intimate with

01:36:18.600 --> 01:36:20.400
the perception or else you're going to

01:36:20.400 --> 01:36:22.500
psychologically project

01:36:22.500 --> 01:36:26.460
and so as modern people as contemporary

01:36:26.460 --> 01:36:30.960
westerners uh we've all been

01:36:30.960 --> 01:36:35.179
millions of times subjected subtly to

01:36:35.179 --> 01:36:37.440
projecting too much psychology and

01:36:37.440 --> 01:36:40.199
things so so

01:36:40.199 --> 01:36:41.820
yeah you have the link it'd be

01:36:41.820 --> 01:36:45.739
interesting for you to go back and just

01:36:47.100 --> 01:36:50.280
sell now I notice having said that my

01:36:50.280 --> 01:36:52.739
eye wanders down this line and it feels

01:36:52.739 --> 01:36:54.659
differently

01:36:54.659 --> 01:36:58.199
so uh or you know this that might may

01:36:58.199 --> 01:37:00.480
not be a thing but I think that's a more

01:37:00.480 --> 01:37:03.080
kind of

01:37:04.139 --> 01:37:06.540
cleaner way to approach it but that's

01:37:06.540 --> 01:37:09.440
what's happening for you

01:37:09.540 --> 01:37:12.480
this is definitely the way uh

01:37:12.480 --> 01:37:16.920
I think Kandinsky was was working it

01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:19.860
I was in the same group Bonnie

01:37:19.860 --> 01:37:23.179
and um

01:37:23.699 --> 01:37:26.780
four of us

01:37:27.139 --> 01:37:30.840
conceptualize the dancer we saw a dancer

01:37:30.840 --> 01:37:35.159
in it and the whole time I I mean I was

01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:37.500
having a hard time we we decided to do

01:37:37.500 --> 01:37:40.080
10 minutes with it I was having a hard

01:37:40.080 --> 01:37:42.420
time staying with it for 10 minutes but

01:37:42.420 --> 01:37:45.239
when I returned to allowing myself to

01:37:45.239 --> 01:37:47.699
get back in and back in

01:37:47.699 --> 01:37:51.480
my body was moving with it like a dancer

01:37:51.480 --> 01:37:54.840
was moving I kept that was my my

01:37:54.840 --> 01:37:58.440
threshold my portal was to the gesture

01:37:58.440 --> 01:38:01.500
yeah the move with it but you know I'm

01:38:01.500 --> 01:38:03.480
like those Italians you talked about

01:38:03.480 --> 01:38:06.920
yeah yeah I know

01:38:08.400 --> 01:38:12.260
he thinks with gesture

01:38:18.960 --> 01:38:22.020
yeah it felt like we found that at some

01:38:22.020 --> 01:38:25.139
point like what

01:38:25.139 --> 01:38:28.560
together when we we read out what we'd

01:38:28.560 --> 01:38:30.659
written we took five minutes we took two

01:38:30.659 --> 01:38:31.739
images

01:38:31.739 --> 01:38:34.440
and then five minutes for each image

01:38:34.440 --> 01:38:37.320
and in the end there was like we were

01:38:37.320 --> 01:38:39.239
thinking also about

01:38:39.239 --> 01:38:42.300
the dynamic of the you know from all our

01:38:42.300 --> 01:38:44.880
associations of of what we were drawing

01:38:44.880 --> 01:38:46.980
in there

01:38:46.980 --> 01:38:49.860
there ended up to be like a feeling of a

01:38:49.860 --> 01:38:53.219
dynamic and a noticing I think

01:38:53.219 --> 01:38:57.960
Susan especially was noticing how

01:38:57.960 --> 01:39:02.659
How She was perceptually drawn into

01:39:04.020 --> 01:39:06.960
the structure of the different images we

01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:08.940
chose two very different ones

01:39:08.940 --> 01:39:11.159
2 and 28

01:39:11.159 --> 01:39:13.560
so I'm curious what they say what he

01:39:13.560 --> 01:39:15.800
says

01:39:16.980 --> 01:39:18.739
to find them go ahead and keep talking

01:39:18.739 --> 01:39:22.820
so two is

01:39:23.040 --> 01:39:27.080
ah two is the first one

01:39:29.719 --> 01:39:33.440
28 should be twice

01:39:33.540 --> 01:39:36.620
it's the first and the last one okay

01:39:36.620 --> 01:39:39.060
sorry that could have been quick that's

01:39:39.060 --> 01:39:41.880
easier yeah because I have page numbers

01:39:41.880 --> 01:39:43.620
you know so

01:39:43.620 --> 01:39:49.139
oh 20 uh 28 is beautiful okay

01:39:49.139 --> 01:39:52.860
so two he writes

01:39:52.860 --> 01:39:55.620
I mean and then he's got pages and pages

01:39:55.620 --> 01:39:56.639
of

01:39:56.639 --> 01:40:00.960
kind of entries but cool tension towards

01:40:00.960 --> 01:40:03.260
Center

01:40:04.500 --> 01:40:07.560
and the last one is horizontal vertical

01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:09.960
structure with contrasting diagonal

01:40:09.960 --> 01:40:13.040
intentions created by points

01:40:13.040 --> 01:40:15.840
schema of a picture intimate message

01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:17.340
which is a

01:40:17.340 --> 01:40:21.380
a large canvas he pointed later

01:40:22.100 --> 01:40:26.400
you know I I look at them and I think

01:40:26.400 --> 01:40:29.219
here's the early universe and how does

01:40:29.219 --> 01:40:30.780
it birth that

01:40:30.780 --> 01:40:34.100
and then I noticed

01:40:39.480 --> 01:40:40.560
um

01:40:40.560 --> 01:40:43.139
but that's me you know like a lot of for

01:40:43.139 --> 01:40:46.679
me I go quickly from image to concept

01:40:46.679 --> 01:40:49.920
like I just went from image to concept

01:40:49.920 --> 01:40:52.760
uh

01:40:58.320 --> 01:41:00.600
yeah because what I was noticing first

01:41:00.600 --> 01:41:03.239
when I looked at the was looking at the

01:41:03.239 --> 01:41:06.900
second one is how part of or

01:41:06.900 --> 01:41:09.360
nothing is quite the weird but the first

01:41:09.360 --> 01:41:11.820
had come into the last

01:41:11.820 --> 01:41:12.900
yeah

01:41:12.900 --> 01:41:18.080
it's just so brilliant I love that

01:41:23.179 --> 01:41:27.239
and then I said it pissed me off that

01:41:27.239 --> 01:41:29.580
image with the dots it pissed me off

01:41:29.580 --> 01:41:32.219
it's like you're you're putting two

01:41:32.219 --> 01:41:35.400
things together that don't it's like ah

01:41:35.400 --> 01:41:37.080
it's disrupting the harmony of my

01:41:37.080 --> 01:41:39.179
sensibility to put those dots with that

01:41:39.179 --> 01:41:40.679
very angular

01:41:40.679 --> 01:41:42.780
yeah so I had a completely opposite

01:41:42.780 --> 01:41:47.239
response to it then Susan did

01:41:47.780 --> 01:41:50.340
since we're at our end of our time I

01:41:50.340 --> 01:41:51.960
want to throw something in since you

01:41:51.960 --> 01:41:53.460
mentioned the early universe and I know

01:41:53.460 --> 01:41:55.380
you like astronomy stuff I read

01:41:55.380 --> 01:41:57.840
something yesterday that gravitational

01:41:57.840 --> 01:42:01.139
waves were so intense they were confined

01:42:01.139 --> 01:42:03.780
in place and created light so they're

01:42:03.780 --> 01:42:05.699
saying the dark matter and gravity waves

01:42:05.699 --> 01:42:07.020
created his light at the beginning of

01:42:07.020 --> 01:42:09.119
the universe that's mind-boggling to me

01:42:09.119 --> 01:42:12.119
that's mind-boggling you know I want to

01:42:12.119 --> 01:42:15.739
end with this one thing that

01:42:16.020 --> 01:42:19.860
the exercise was a little clunky but let

01:42:19.860 --> 01:42:22.380
me just go ahead and put it out

01:42:22.380 --> 01:42:25.800
um so why is this important like from

01:42:25.800 --> 01:42:29.580
like a kind of spiritual sense because

01:42:29.580 --> 01:42:32.460
um there's two things that we as humans

01:42:32.460 --> 01:42:35.239
get from this ability for us to have

01:42:35.239 --> 01:42:37.560
synesthesia which is like this

01:42:37.560 --> 01:42:40.800
perceptual thing or cross modal

01:42:40.800 --> 01:42:43.380
processing which is more conceptual or

01:42:43.380 --> 01:42:45.780
like how we put images with words and

01:42:45.780 --> 01:42:47.040
stuff

01:42:47.040 --> 01:42:51.000
and one is is this question we worked

01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:54.239
with this is what is it like to be like

01:42:54.239 --> 01:42:58.320
you know what is it like to be like an

01:42:58.320 --> 01:43:00.719
animal or even what is it like to be

01:43:00.719 --> 01:43:03.659
like the early Universe this this this

01:43:03.659 --> 01:43:07.199
notion of empathic resonance

01:43:07.199 --> 01:43:10.800
and the second thing is without this

01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:12.780
experience

01:43:12.780 --> 01:43:15.960
we could never imagine the hole in the

01:43:15.960 --> 01:43:17.820
part

01:43:17.820 --> 01:43:21.360
or we could never imagine the whole from

01:43:21.360 --> 01:43:23.400
the part

01:43:23.400 --> 01:43:26.639
right so these are diamond you know

01:43:26.639 --> 01:43:29.580
diametrically different concepts that

01:43:29.580 --> 01:43:32.159
resist being put together but through

01:43:32.159 --> 01:43:34.980
synesthetic processes

01:43:34.980 --> 01:43:38.760
we can imagine the whole in the part and

01:43:38.760 --> 01:43:40.020
we can imagine

01:43:40.020 --> 01:43:42.119
the whole from

01:43:42.119 --> 01:43:43.739
the part

01:43:43.739 --> 01:43:46.619
and this requires a great deal cross

01:43:46.619 --> 01:43:50.060
modal processing

01:43:53.040 --> 01:43:55.679
so we'll get to that

01:43:55.679 --> 01:43:59.340
and what's the significance of that

01:43:59.340 --> 01:44:01.739
it's what we call the sacred or the

01:44:01.739 --> 01:44:04.159
spiritual

01:44:05.699 --> 01:44:08.280
and also is the foundation for Morality

01:44:08.280 --> 01:44:11.659
empathic resonance

01:44:11.760 --> 01:44:16.460
um yeah so this is not what animals do

01:44:23.820 --> 01:44:27.960
so if you can imagine the whole in the

01:44:27.960 --> 01:44:31.860
part or the whole from the part that

01:44:31.860 --> 01:44:36.480
means that in some way you can rely on

01:44:36.480 --> 01:44:39.119
your CR your capacity

01:44:39.119 --> 01:44:43.560
to perceive to know because you can

01:44:43.560 --> 01:44:48.960
you can include what is on some level uh

01:44:48.960 --> 01:44:52.440
and so in that way you can become maybe

01:44:52.440 --> 01:44:55.280
trustworthy

01:44:56.360 --> 01:44:59.520
because it's the exact same thing as the

01:44:59.520 --> 01:45:02.340
universe being trustworthy

01:45:02.340 --> 01:45:06.300
that's where it's grounded in so

01:45:06.300 --> 01:45:08.340
so a lot of these

01:45:08.340 --> 01:45:10.739
you know we're still somewhat close to

01:45:10.739 --> 01:45:13.440
the animal body but we're moving on

01:45:13.440 --> 01:45:17.460
to to these other capacities the next

01:45:17.460 --> 01:45:19.380
one is on

01:45:19.380 --> 01:45:21.260
um the justification system

01:45:21.260 --> 01:45:24.560
which is kind of a little bit of a

01:45:24.560 --> 01:45:28.080
sidebar uh before we move on to

01:45:28.080 --> 01:45:29.880
abstractions because you notice these

01:45:29.880 --> 01:45:30.780
are

01:45:30.780 --> 01:45:33.719
pure abstractions pure abstractions is

01:45:33.719 --> 01:45:36.480
the inverse process of synesthesia

01:45:36.480 --> 01:45:38.699
so synesthesia says this is like that

01:45:38.699 --> 01:45:41.520
and this Suite is like the sunrise and

01:45:41.520 --> 01:45:44.340
the sunrise is like this can I draw

01:45:44.340 --> 01:45:45.659
something

01:45:45.659 --> 01:45:49.139
that is common to that them all so

01:45:49.139 --> 01:45:52.679
synesthesia pure abstractions is the

01:45:52.679 --> 01:45:54.659
compression of what is the intersection

01:45:54.659 --> 01:45:57.060
of all of these things

01:45:57.060 --> 01:46:00.000
conceptually

01:46:00.000 --> 01:46:01.679
now we won't get to that next time

01:46:01.679 --> 01:46:03.780
because we're going to take a

01:46:03.780 --> 01:46:08.940
side view we're going to a sidebar into

01:46:08.940 --> 01:46:10.260
um

01:46:10.260 --> 01:46:12.780
the justification system narrative and

01:46:12.780 --> 01:46:15.600
the justification system and kind of how

01:46:15.600 --> 01:46:18.239
like we just go on and on and on

01:46:18.239 --> 01:46:19.739
um and then we'll come back and build

01:46:19.739 --> 01:46:21.480
from this abstractions but I just want

01:46:21.480 --> 01:46:23.100
you to show that we've already started

01:46:23.100 --> 01:46:26.639
to work with abstractions from this

01:46:26.639 --> 01:46:30.739
notion of synesthesia and Imagination

01:46:30.840 --> 01:46:34.020
can I imagine the pattern behind the

01:46:34.020 --> 01:46:35.639
pattern that connects

01:46:35.639 --> 01:46:38.940
like I have synesthetically this feeling

01:46:38.940 --> 01:46:40.440
that they connect now I have to figure

01:46:40.440 --> 01:46:42.719
out why

01:46:42.719 --> 01:46:45.659
that's the process of abstraction right

01:46:45.659 --> 01:46:47.880
so

01:46:47.880 --> 01:46:51.060
um yeah so Justin this this is maybe not

01:46:51.060 --> 01:46:53.340
your thing but I think this next move

01:46:53.340 --> 01:46:56.880
two times from now uh

01:46:56.880 --> 01:47:00.480
might be very exciting for you so

01:47:00.480 --> 01:47:02.219
uh thank you very much I think we have

01:47:02.219 --> 01:47:04.800
one more uh session on this and I I

01:47:04.800 --> 01:47:06.360
think what I'll do is the presentation

01:47:06.360 --> 01:47:09.500
on pragmatic imagination to wrap this up

01:47:09.500 --> 01:47:13.639
and I wish you all a great day

## Cohort 4

00:00:06.420 --> 00:00:09.560
hello hello

00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.580
okay

00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:22.560
I almost didn't make it today because I

00:00:22.560 --> 00:00:24.240
was all screwed up on what day of the

00:00:24.240 --> 00:00:26.279
week it was and

00:00:26.279 --> 00:00:28.500
I thought it was Friday and then it was

00:00:28.500 --> 00:00:29.939
Saturday and I thought it was next

00:00:29.939 --> 00:00:34.440
Saturday and it got all screwed up so

00:00:34.440 --> 00:00:38.880
um this very interesting to me because

00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:41.340
um I was trying to figure out what this

00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:43.820
state of

00:00:43.820 --> 00:00:47.399
delusion was it was it I was caught up

00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:50.100
in too much imagination or something I

00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:51.059
don't know

00:00:51.059 --> 00:00:54.059
but uh it was really it was really

00:00:54.059 --> 00:00:56.399
interesting too

00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:00.079
um yeah go through that this morning

00:01:00.420 --> 00:01:02.280
uh what do we want to talk about is

00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:05.820
there stuff that uh is on your mind

00:01:05.820 --> 00:01:08.100
right now

00:01:08.100 --> 00:01:10.439
um carried over from

00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:12.420
um some some of what we've already said

00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:14.820
or do we want to

00:01:14.820 --> 00:01:19.320
um move on uh first and then and then

00:01:19.320 --> 00:01:22.640
kind of chat later

00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:26.299
foreign

00:01:39.020 --> 00:01:43.619
I was re doing some re-reading and uh

00:01:43.619 --> 00:01:46.320
you know when I I find words that you

00:01:46.320 --> 00:01:48.780
write or speak that I don't understand I

00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:50.759
go to the dictionary

00:01:50.759 --> 00:01:53.280
and then I go to Google

00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:55.200
and there's no way for me to look this

00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.200
up so I just like you

00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.600
to speak to what you think first

00:02:02.600 --> 00:02:07.320
principles of intuitive knowing are

00:02:07.320 --> 00:02:09.860
oh okay

00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:14.700
okay imagine analysis imagination

00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:16.739
insight and intuition

00:02:16.739 --> 00:02:20.599
I have it actually on a slide

00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.040
so that

00:02:23.040 --> 00:02:25.739
um yeah so

00:02:25.739 --> 00:02:27.599
um

00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.379
so this will be unpacked

00:02:31.379 --> 00:02:34.140
uh soon

00:02:34.140 --> 00:02:37.379
um yeah way too Intuit that David

00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:41.099
you see you didn't you you wouldn't have

00:02:41.099 --> 00:02:44.720
said way to imagine that David right

00:02:44.720 --> 00:02:48.360
uh so these words are different

00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:51.840
for different reasons and

00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.940
um

00:02:53.940 --> 00:02:57.540
and again when we go through this

00:02:57.540 --> 00:02:59.519
um

00:02:59.519 --> 00:03:01.500
a little exercise

00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:04.560
we will notice that

00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:06.720
um we can make the distinctions in our

00:03:06.720 --> 00:03:09.959
body just like we did when we were doing

00:03:09.959 --> 00:03:13.920
the memory exercises we could tell

00:03:13.920 --> 00:03:17.340
there's some feeling that switches when

00:03:17.340 --> 00:03:19.980
we're imagining you know oh I I just

00:03:19.980 --> 00:03:21.659
can't imagine that instead of

00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:24.379
remembering it it could be an energy

00:03:24.379 --> 00:03:28.140
signature sometimes it's a gesture you

00:03:28.140 --> 00:03:30.540
know where you go to find memories

00:03:30.540 --> 00:03:33.500
versus

00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.180
like my eyes for imagination just went

00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:37.739
like that

00:03:37.739 --> 00:03:40.500
um but we get to and it's it's

00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:41.900
um people have tried and

00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:45.120
neuro-linguistic programming shows that

00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.159
there's some consistency but people have

00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:50.099
tried to make this more of a science

00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:52.379
um and it doesn't hold culturally so

00:03:52.379 --> 00:03:54.540
some of the gestures are different for

00:03:54.540 --> 00:03:57.319
different people

00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.659
um and uh it's kind of hard to know

00:04:00.659 --> 00:04:03.599
though because uh first you have to

00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:05.159
figure out

00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:08.540
like sometimes

00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:12.540
it's just that people use are using the

00:04:12.540 --> 00:04:14.580
different words exactly the opposite

00:04:14.580 --> 00:04:17.340
because some people think you know using

00:04:17.340 --> 00:04:19.380
I mean very few people switch

00:04:19.380 --> 00:04:22.019
imagination intuition but sometimes the

00:04:22.019 --> 00:04:25.500
felt sense is the same but they're using

00:04:25.500 --> 00:04:28.440
um the the exact opposite word because

00:04:28.440 --> 00:04:30.479
of the way they read it once and then

00:04:30.479 --> 00:04:33.000
from then on they you know

00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.139
um but

00:04:34.139 --> 00:04:36.840
um it's also the case that you kind of

00:04:36.840 --> 00:04:39.080
get the idea you're using the same word

00:04:39.080 --> 00:04:42.560
uh you can unpack that and then you

00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.960
figure out that it lives in the body in

00:04:45.960 --> 00:04:48.300
slightly different ways in some people

00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:50.639
rather than others uh

00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.680
yeah

00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:54.479
but

00:04:54.479 --> 00:04:55.440
um

00:04:55.440 --> 00:04:57.419
maybe we could just if there's not any

00:04:57.419 --> 00:04:59.280
other questions we can go and start with

00:04:59.280 --> 00:05:02.160
that and then kind of I'm going to give

00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.220
you some simple definitions

00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:06.600
um and then of course just like

00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.180
everything else with language then

00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:12.120
there's nuances where what you know

00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.520
imagination is hardly any different than

00:05:14.520 --> 00:05:16.860
intuition so we're just

00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:19.440
start with the core screening and then

00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:24.240
and then unpack it because

00:05:24.479 --> 00:05:26.940
yeah so

00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:27.720
um

00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.539
but let's stick with imagination first I

00:05:30.539 --> 00:05:32.520
don't have a module on intuition which

00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:34.680
is interesting

00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:36.800
um

00:05:36.960 --> 00:05:38.940
that should probably be in the second

00:05:38.940 --> 00:05:41.840
half somehow

00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:52.620
but we'll get that we'll get to that

00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:55.820
slide in in a second

00:06:13.919 --> 00:06:17.039
is there any other questions around what

00:06:17.039 --> 00:06:19.380
we've been doing or or

00:06:19.380 --> 00:06:22.340
comments

00:06:23.819 --> 00:06:25.860
uh

00:06:25.860 --> 00:06:29.100
I got a question Bonnie

00:06:29.100 --> 00:06:31.560
um has to do with

00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.840
well you've been writing the whole

00:06:33.840 --> 00:06:36.120
before Socrates sick John verbaki he

00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.240
uses the term imaginal quite a bit

00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:39.960
imaginable imaginately imagine

00:06:39.960 --> 00:06:43.979
everything is a vaginal and um

00:06:43.979 --> 00:06:46.860
yeah I'm wondering how you how does he

00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:48.360
use that term and how does it differ

00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:50.400
from

00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:52.860
from the way you're framing it

00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:57.080
yeah so we have three terms imagination

00:06:57.080 --> 00:07:01.560
imaginary and imaginal

00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.919
so imaginary is like your imaginary

00:07:04.919 --> 00:07:09.060
friend it doesn't exist it's made up

00:07:09.060 --> 00:07:13.080
um Imagination is the creative

00:07:13.080 --> 00:07:17.039
uh the creative aspect that makes you

00:07:17.039 --> 00:07:20.400
able to make imaginary friends but also

00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:23.460
uh you can use your imagination to

00:07:23.460 --> 00:07:27.840
create a new food or you know you can

00:07:27.840 --> 00:07:30.860
use your imagination to we'll look at it

00:07:30.860 --> 00:07:34.860
so imagination is the capacity it can

00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:38.280
create imaginary worlds or Imaginary

00:07:38.280 --> 00:07:39.599
Friends

00:07:39.599 --> 00:07:42.599
and then there's this imaginal and I

00:07:42.599 --> 00:07:45.000
think we kind of

00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:45.599
um

00:07:45.599 --> 00:07:47.340
we kind of

00:07:47.340 --> 00:07:52.380
uh defined it last week and that is when

00:07:52.380 --> 00:07:54.900
the imaginal

00:07:54.900 --> 00:07:58.500
is allowed to

00:07:58.500 --> 00:07:59.699
um

00:07:59.699 --> 00:08:04.259
you take it in and you embody it so so

00:08:04.259 --> 00:08:06.060
um I've become

00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:11.340
I don't just imagine a horse I become

00:08:11.340 --> 00:08:16.020
a horse and I'm in the imaginal realm

00:08:16.020 --> 00:08:18.960
um so I let the imagination what I'm

00:08:18.960 --> 00:08:21.020
imagining

00:08:21.020 --> 00:08:24.720
overtake me or possess me in in some way

00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:29.400
I put it on or take it on

00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:30.199
um

00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:31.919
which

00:08:31.919 --> 00:08:32.580
um

00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:35.760
yeah and what happens in the imaginal

00:08:35.760 --> 00:08:38.099
it's still in the realm of the

00:08:38.099 --> 00:08:40.320
imagination

00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.360
but

00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.919
um it starts to

00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:47.279
um

00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:50.820
have a momentum of its own let's say so

00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:55.500
like like uh you'll you'll hear artists

00:08:55.500 --> 00:08:58.140
like people who write fiction they

00:08:58.140 --> 00:08:59.940
imagine a story right and they got a

00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:01.620
storyline and stuff and then they get

00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:04.500
into the characters and they say oh and

00:09:04.500 --> 00:09:06.420
then the character wanted to do this and

00:09:06.420 --> 00:09:08.880
and they don't experience themselves as

00:09:08.880 --> 00:09:11.339
imagining it anymore

00:09:11.339 --> 00:09:14.279
um it somehow has

00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:19.380
kind of its own imaginal realm uh or

00:09:19.380 --> 00:09:23.100
you'll hear art um uh actors say this

00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:24.779
you know they have the script they got

00:09:24.779 --> 00:09:27.360
the story someone imagined it and then

00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.220
they keep occupying this this

00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:34.620
person and they find out they figure out

00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:37.860
things about it as if now they're not

00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:40.019
imagining that it is a thing they're

00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:41.940
discovering rather than

00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:44.640
a thing they're imagining and that's

00:09:44.640 --> 00:09:47.180
that's what I understand as the imaginal

00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:50.580
realm it's it's still in the imagination

00:09:50.580 --> 00:09:53.040
but

00:09:53.040 --> 00:09:54.360
um

00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:55.500
um

00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:58.680
it has this felt sense or this lived

00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:01.220
quality of now you're not imagining it

00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:03.120
it is

00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:07.140
you know imagining itself in you

00:10:07.140 --> 00:10:09.600
um so that's why they call it a realm

00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.100
because it's like you've entered a

00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:13.140
trance or you've entered a different

00:10:13.140 --> 00:10:15.180
space and so

00:10:15.180 --> 00:10:18.180
um that's how I understand it

00:10:18.180 --> 00:10:21.060
um uh

00:10:21.060 --> 00:10:24.839
you know always the contrast between me

00:10:24.839 --> 00:10:27.980
and John is that with him

00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:30.480
you know I think hard-pressed he would

00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.580
agree with me but he never emphasizes

00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:34.860
the lived experience and so without the

00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:37.320
lived experience you know he'll call it

00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.080
the imaginals where reality realizes

00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:41.640
itself and

00:10:41.640 --> 00:10:45.959
and to me they have biomarkers these you

00:10:45.959 --> 00:10:47.519
know getting to understand these words

00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.399
has to do with getting to understand the

00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.640
biomarkers how it feels differently in

00:10:53.640 --> 00:10:55.860
in your in your body

00:10:55.860 --> 00:10:58.260
um so

00:10:58.260 --> 00:10:59.160
um

00:10:59.160 --> 00:11:01.740
yeah so Cheryl I think is shaking her

00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:04.380
head she probably uh knows this

00:11:04.380 --> 00:11:06.660
territory well and so I'm feeling good

00:11:06.660 --> 00:11:09.480
about that there's just this experience

00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:11.220
that

00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:13.220
um

00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:16.440
um yeah so kids they spend a lot of time

00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.660
in their imagination like they pretend

00:11:18.660 --> 00:11:20.760
they're doctors and this and that and

00:11:20.760 --> 00:11:24.480
they have the parallel experience that

00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.519
they are making it up or like when we

00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.380
used to play fight you know and then

00:11:28.380 --> 00:11:30.480
someone would say

00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.300
come out from underneath the tree bushes

00:11:33.300 --> 00:11:35.100
and go like boom you're dead and then

00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:38.279
you would say no I had nice secret cloak

00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:41.120
on then you you know like and you can

00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.760
you can tell they're in the imaginary or

00:11:44.760 --> 00:11:46.920
imagination

00:11:46.920 --> 00:11:50.700
um and but the imaginal

00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:54.480
um you know when kids

00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:55.200
um

00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.720
that they can cross a line into the

00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.160
imaginal

00:11:59.160 --> 00:12:01.320
um I think adults I think it's something

00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.660
that adults do more

00:12:03.660 --> 00:12:05.779
um

00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.459
um

00:12:08.459 --> 00:12:10.620
remember maybe that's not true of

00:12:10.620 --> 00:12:14.700
everyone but I remember when I was a kid

00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:19.800
um it always seemed to me that uh

00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:22.740
it seems to me that kids know they're

00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:24.480
pretending

00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:25.260
um

00:12:25.260 --> 00:12:27.600
um and then that moving into the

00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.980
imaginal is something that is

00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:36.959
is cultivated more by artists or

00:12:36.959 --> 00:12:40.920
um yeah I could be wrong there but

00:12:40.920 --> 00:12:42.920
um

00:12:46.680 --> 00:12:49.740
so that's does that does that make sense

00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:51.899
to you

00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:55.100
yeah and yeah

00:13:08.880 --> 00:13:09.500
yeah

00:13:09.500 --> 00:13:12.540
I'm thinking a lot about play and how

00:13:12.540 --> 00:13:13.920
sometimes

00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:16.760
when we play

00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:19.079
yes I yeah I'm trying to work out if

00:13:19.079 --> 00:13:20.940
it's it's imagination or imaginal but

00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:25.399
there's there's this embodied sets of

00:13:25.740 --> 00:13:28.920
for example if we were play fighting

00:13:28.920 --> 00:13:30.120
um

00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.459
we can imagine we're in a fight but also

00:13:32.459 --> 00:13:34.079
know that we're not we can imagine a

00:13:34.079 --> 00:13:35.880
slowing down time which gives me more

00:13:35.880 --> 00:13:38.839
time to react to

00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.279
something that's coming I don't yeah I'm

00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:42.720
just trying to work out

00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:46.079
yeah so with your work I would say like

00:13:46.079 --> 00:13:49.380
it starts with it can start with like I

00:13:49.380 --> 00:13:52.019
go I go into the pen round pen with the

00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:54.480
horses and right at first I'm imagining

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.880
oh what do I want to do you know here's

00:13:56.880 --> 00:13:59.100
this cute little game then I might get

00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:02.040
into like a flow state where I I enter

00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:04.139
this feeling that like

00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:06.660
we're not playing a game the game is

00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:10.620
playing us and and

00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.200
I kind of feel like the horse is in this

00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.320
it's always accompanied with this

00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.300
expression people use like you enter a

00:14:18.300 --> 00:14:21.420
different realm the imaginal realm and

00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:25.260
so now it's like it's like I can see oh

00:14:25.260 --> 00:14:28.200
people will say this uh uh Josh waitskin

00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.420
says this in his book

00:14:30.420 --> 00:14:32.100
um that

00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:32.820
um

00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:35.459
at a certain level of doing push-ins in

00:14:35.459 --> 00:14:38.639
Tai Chi he would uh spar with his

00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:39.660
partner

00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:41.940
and they were very equal not his partner

00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:44.339
like this sparring partner this buddy of

00:14:44.339 --> 00:14:48.060
his and they were very equal and they

00:14:48.060 --> 00:14:50.160
they would videotape themselves and then

00:14:50.160 --> 00:14:53.399
they would see what moves their bodies

00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.180
created that they'd never seen before

00:14:56.180 --> 00:14:59.160
right so these moves were not something

00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:02.639
they were imagining but it was it was a

00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.120
rising in the imaginal

00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.220
interaction of their bodies uh and then

00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:10.680
they would perfect them you know and

00:15:10.680 --> 00:15:13.199
study them and use and be able to more

00:15:13.199 --> 00:15:16.500
consciously use uh the principles behind

00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:17.899
them so

00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:21.199
it's a matter of the shift between

00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:25.019
uh you're adding imagination to

00:15:25.019 --> 00:15:28.139
something versus

00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:31.740
the something is imagining this this

00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:34.680
these movements in you

00:15:34.680 --> 00:15:36.779
um and the reason why you would say

00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:38.639
imagine is because they're new or

00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.579
creative new ways of of doing things

00:15:41.579 --> 00:15:45.000
came out of it and and

00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.899
um yeah so these are just ways in we use

00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:52.260
in which we use the terms uh I don't

00:15:52.260 --> 00:15:54.180
always know with John like he'll explain

00:15:54.180 --> 00:15:56.579
the imaginal with another term that's

00:15:56.579 --> 00:15:58.740
not well you know so I don't know how he

00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:00.660
uses them but that's pretty much what

00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:01.440
people

00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.560
uh uh what's in common when people use

00:16:04.560 --> 00:16:07.019
the term the imaginal

00:16:07.019 --> 00:16:09.740
uh

00:16:13.199 --> 00:16:15.420
people might say you know I'm being

00:16:15.420 --> 00:16:17.639
imagined like something else is

00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.579
imagining me or something

00:16:20.579 --> 00:16:24.300
um so it's a it's a space of High play

00:16:24.300 --> 00:16:26.519
creativity

00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:27.660
um

00:16:27.660 --> 00:16:30.980
but it has this doesn't

00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:34.139
you could you you author your pretend

00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:37.380
and you author your imagination but you

00:16:37.380 --> 00:16:39.779
don't author you lose a sense of

00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:43.820
authoring the imaginal

00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:48.959
that was fine sorry to interrupt that

00:16:48.959 --> 00:16:50.519
was really good can you repeat what you

00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:52.079
just said that that seems really

00:16:52.079 --> 00:16:54.000
clarifying

00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.220
yeah when you're using your imagination

00:16:56.220 --> 00:16:58.560
you have a sense that you're authoring

00:16:58.560 --> 00:17:00.360
it

00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:04.020
and when you're creating imaginary

00:17:04.020 --> 00:17:07.919
uh language or something you also have

00:17:07.919 --> 00:17:09.959
this sense you're authoring it but when

00:17:09.959 --> 00:17:12.120
you enter the imaginal you see that's

00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:14.299
why we we we

00:17:14.299 --> 00:17:17.220
leave this the phrase that I am

00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:20.280
imagining you don't have that term I am

00:17:20.280 --> 00:17:24.240
imagining you enter the imaginal because

00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.160
you no longer have a sense that you're

00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.400
authoring what what's happening

00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.760
um and a lot of artists describe this

00:17:32.760 --> 00:17:35.160
like authors will describe you know they

00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.140
they imagine something they're like oh

00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:39.660
and then this person and then they get

00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:42.419
into the character they only half write

00:17:42.419 --> 00:17:44.100
the character because the character

00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:46.980
starts to imagine itself they're in this

00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:49.799
imaginal realm where like oh no this is

00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:51.179
what the character is doing I can't

00:17:51.179 --> 00:17:53.160
believe they talk about being surprised

00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:54.900
that the character did that in their

00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:56.520
book and you're like how could you be

00:17:56.520 --> 00:17:59.700
surprised didn't you write the book and

00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:00.360
um

00:18:00.360 --> 00:18:03.600
but they have this experience right

00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:05.820
um that they're they're witnessing an

00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:08.720
imaginal realm rather than authoring it

00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.000
uh it's it's a it's a common experience

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.760
in in the Arts

00:18:14.760 --> 00:18:15.780
um

00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:18.500
uh

00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:23.160
yeah

00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.520
that's really helpful thank you Bonnie I

00:18:26.520 --> 00:18:29.039
heard you say

00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.160
a little bit more than that what you

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.280
were touching into was that in the

00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:37.039
imaginal

00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:42.059
there's something else drawing it out a

00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:45.000
life force if you will or Spirit if you

00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:46.280
will

00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:49.919
also at play so it's not only the

00:18:49.919 --> 00:18:53.039
authoring it's that it's the

00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.799
participation with something else and

00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:58.559
sitting here I have an intuitive sense

00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.360
that that's true

00:19:00.360 --> 00:19:04.380
yeah so me being the scientist I am

00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:06.419
would say it's as if

00:19:06.419 --> 00:19:09.539
something else is authoring it

00:19:09.539 --> 00:19:12.120
so I know for sure that's what it feels

00:19:12.120 --> 00:19:13.740
like

00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.500
so much for that you can't step out of

00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:19.980
it to do research on it so for sure it's

00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:24.000
as if so the experience changes

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.740
um and the the other thing I would say

00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:31.020
is you imagine

00:19:31.020 --> 00:19:33.900
that it's a spirit or you imagine that

00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:36.660
it's a devil or you imagine

00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:38.640
that it's a possession there are many

00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.039
many ways in which people have imagined

00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.580
what's going on uh but the experience is

00:19:44.580 --> 00:19:47.780
quite Universal

00:19:53.100 --> 00:19:56.580
it's uh similar to zogen Fossil talks

00:19:56.580 --> 00:19:59.280
about imaginal processes first you

00:19:59.280 --> 00:20:02.100
imagine a hot hot white light and then

00:20:02.100 --> 00:20:04.080
because you're having a state experience

00:20:04.080 --> 00:20:07.200
then you're watching the light

00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.720
do all kinds of things that you no

00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:11.340
longer you know you get it started by

00:20:11.340 --> 00:20:13.500
imagination and then

00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:15.480
uh

00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.840
that it starts to move on its own and

00:20:18.840 --> 00:20:21.740
that in in

00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:25.980
the boundary between that and that is is

00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:28.200
called you're in now what you're in the

00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.620
imaginal

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:34.380
Bonnie can you talk a little bit about

00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:37.500
like biomarkers I was noticing

00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:39.240
when you were talking about intuition

00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:40.679
like

00:20:40.679 --> 00:20:44.760
my sense of smell like came more online

00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:45.480
um

00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.299
and I'm kind of wondering

00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:50.400
um I notice when I go into an imaginal

00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.620
place

00:20:52.620 --> 00:20:55.620
um it typically there's like a grounding

00:20:55.620 --> 00:20:57.960
a relaxation of the body

00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.179
and then it's moving up it's like in an

00:21:00.179 --> 00:21:01.500
upward motion

00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:04.620
and then it likes to really engage

00:21:04.620 --> 00:21:08.160
the senses so like touch and taste and

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:09.360
um that you had mentioned sort of

00:21:09.360 --> 00:21:10.620
biomarkers and I don't know if you could

00:21:10.620 --> 00:21:14.160
expand on that yeah so

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.020
um

00:21:16.020 --> 00:21:18.120
so then I would ask you and then when

00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:21.000
you when you know in your own lexicon

00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.280
that you're not in the imaginal you're

00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.160
in the You're intuiting Something

00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.700
is it is it got different markers in you

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:31.980
like like

00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:32.700
um

00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.220
uh

00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:38.220
and and and so that so that would be the

00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.760
question like we just we just talked

00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:43.620
about different markers between the

00:21:43.620 --> 00:21:47.039
imagination and imagine all and how does

00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.320
that change when you're working with

00:21:49.320 --> 00:21:51.299
intuition

00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:54.419
um and uh like when David asked the

00:21:54.419 --> 00:21:56.100
question it was exactly what I'm going

00:21:56.100 --> 00:21:58.679
to prepare some I think it was you that

00:21:58.679 --> 00:22:02.220
said or sh that said you know David

00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:04.799
you've good you intuited that he didn't

00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.740
imagine it and so

00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:10.679
um so biomarkers is just how does these

00:22:10.679 --> 00:22:13.620
things live in your body intuition for

00:22:13.620 --> 00:22:16.860
me it's not it's not so much smell but

00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:20.820
it's this you know how how

00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:21.780
um

00:22:21.780 --> 00:22:24.900
stallions and elephants like they they

00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:28.020
put their they roll their lip up to

00:22:28.020 --> 00:22:31.559
smell pheromones for me there's always

00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.419
energy here

00:22:33.419 --> 00:22:35.700
when intuition is I'm gonna have an

00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:39.900
Intuition or Insight I asked some uh

00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:42.659
some gurus about that

00:22:42.659 --> 00:22:44.039
they didn't give me answers they just

00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:46.500
this is their non-answer just keep doing

00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.480
the practice you know

00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.419
um so I think that's related to smell I

00:22:51.419 --> 00:22:56.659
mean it's not it's like uh this digital

00:22:56.659 --> 00:22:59.280
flemen response I think something like

00:22:59.280 --> 00:23:01.140
that is called

00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:05.400
um but uh and when I imagine things

00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.740
there's no energy there at all there's

00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:10.140
there's nothing it's not

00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:13.820
uh for me imaginations much more

00:23:13.820 --> 00:23:17.460
daydreamy and spacious and to me

00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:20.600
intuition is like

00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.640
being an eagle with eagle eyes

00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:29.940
like it's completely different like

00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:32.700
this position like it's like being eagle

00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:37.919
eyes on something I just can't see it

00:23:37.919 --> 00:23:40.080
and you just want to keep a bead on it

00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:43.440
which imagination is like in letting it

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.640
go and then if you get an imaginal

00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.000
it's completely completely different

00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:51.600
um

00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:53.159
so

00:23:53.159 --> 00:23:55.860
uh so that's all it's it's you know

00:23:55.860 --> 00:23:57.600
we're going to give some definitions to

00:23:57.600 --> 00:23:59.820
it but it will live differently and

00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:03.240
different and in different uh they live

00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:04.559
slightly differently in different

00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.940
people's bodies and there's no

00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:08.100
Neuroscience on this as far as I can

00:24:08.100 --> 00:24:09.480
tell

00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:10.260
um

00:24:10.260 --> 00:24:12.780
there's just phenomenology like we're

00:24:12.780 --> 00:24:14.400
talking

00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.120
uh

00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.460
so imagination is shared with animals uh

00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:28.760
pretty

00:24:29.820 --> 00:24:31.860
um you know as we talked about they can

00:24:31.860 --> 00:24:34.980
create hypothetical environments

00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:37.200
in their dreams so that would be

00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.380
imagination intuition in the human is

00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:42.659
what instinct is in the animal

00:24:42.659 --> 00:24:44.820
and uh

00:24:44.820 --> 00:24:47.640
um it has the same

00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.760
um

00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.760
you know you can raise an animal who

00:24:53.760 --> 00:24:56.220
hasn't who has evolved an instinct for

00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:58.620
something and they've never been exposed

00:24:58.620 --> 00:25:00.000
to that but the first time they're

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.860
exposed to it even as an adult the

00:25:01.860 --> 00:25:03.900
instinct

00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:07.860
will kick in you know so uh intuition is

00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:10.620
more like an instinct

00:25:10.620 --> 00:25:12.740
um

00:25:16.919 --> 00:25:18.539
bunny

00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:20.179
yes

00:25:20.179 --> 00:25:23.700
can you speak a bit about the accuracy

00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:25.440
of intuition

00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.000
with people

00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.000
and

00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:35.700
when like other circumstances in general

00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:38.760
where people's intuition are more likely

00:25:38.760 --> 00:25:40.500
to be accurate other times where it's

00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:43.620
just kind of it feels like an intuition

00:25:43.620 --> 00:25:46.380
but then it you know I've heard Dave

00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:48.539
Stone talk about you know

00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:50.700
if someone has

00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:52.799
a lot of intuition

00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.539
that's reliable it's usually because

00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:55.980
they have a lot of experience in that

00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:57.720
particular domain

00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.960
or in relation to like

00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.419
you know sussing out who you'll get

00:26:03.419 --> 00:26:05.039
along with people generally have good

00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:08.940
intuition but otherwise no not so much

00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:10.980
yeah I'm just curious about that

00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:13.020
yeah let me do the slide and then we'll

00:26:13.020 --> 00:26:15.000
ask how accurate is intuition just

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:15.960
because

00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:19.140
the slide were these These are more

00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:20.640
interesting questions in the slide but

00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:21.960
this slide will ground what we're

00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:23.340
talking about

00:26:23.340 --> 00:26:27.779
um now again it's a it's just a start

00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:28.740
um

00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:30.539
um and then these kinds of questions

00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:32.760
will

00:26:32.760 --> 00:26:33.480
um

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:38.220
will will be able to say more about it

00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:41.580
um so this whole thing we're doing now

00:26:41.580 --> 00:26:46.020
is what I would put under the rubric of

00:26:46.020 --> 00:26:49.740
pragmatic imagination so in what's what

00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:52.799
is it for what is it possible so this

00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.260
question of how accurate is it is part

00:26:55.260 --> 00:26:57.900
of that so we're going to look at this

00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:59.700
um

00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:03.240
um again this is just this to start

00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.740
making these distinctions uh

00:27:08.820 --> 00:27:11.760
and so this is what we want to say

00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:12.360
um

00:27:12.360 --> 00:27:13.559
okay

00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:15.299
so

00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:19.380
um get rid of it so we're in a world we

00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:21.480
have to this is how we're gonna play

00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.419
with this um so we're in a world here

00:27:24.419 --> 00:27:27.059
where something acts and something y are

00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:29.400
known we're already familiar with that

00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.480
but something Z is not yet known okay so

00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.779
this is these this is what x y and z are

00:27:36.779 --> 00:27:41.279
in this in this example so an analysis

00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.880
this is categorical analysis something X

00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.539
is an instance of Y where X is in the

00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:50.880
category set y so

00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.720
um a cat is an instance of a mammal

00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.860
a dog is an instance of a mammal

00:27:58.860 --> 00:28:02.820
okay this is basic science is by finding

00:28:02.820 --> 00:28:06.179
it's set theory finding the categories

00:28:06.179 --> 00:28:08.100
of

00:28:08.100 --> 00:28:10.740
um of analysis

00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:12.120
so this one we're not really that

00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:13.620
interested in but this is the starting

00:28:13.620 --> 00:28:16.919
point now imagination is something X is

00:28:16.919 --> 00:28:19.679
like something y

00:28:19.679 --> 00:28:23.760
so I can say a dog is

00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:27.659
I can say a dog here in here I would say

00:28:27.659 --> 00:28:31.559
a dog is an instance of a canine

00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:35.340
but I can say a dog is like a cat in

00:28:35.340 --> 00:28:37.380
some way there's some way that they're

00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:39.960
related or connected and Imagination

00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.779
this is is basically a metaphor some

00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:44.940
this is like that

00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:48.539
does if I say imagine a hot hot

00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.539
sun in the middle of your body that's

00:28:51.539 --> 00:28:54.539
like this experience I'm going to have

00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:56.760
all right so

00:28:56.760 --> 00:28:58.860
now intuition

00:28:58.860 --> 00:29:01.760
is this

00:29:01.760 --> 00:29:04.320
uncanny feeling that there exists

00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:07.320
something like Z you don't know it what

00:29:07.320 --> 00:29:11.159
it is yet but there's a hole in in

00:29:11.159 --> 00:29:14.460
either there's a hole somewhere h-o-l-e

00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:19.279
there's an absence somewhere lurking

00:29:19.620 --> 00:29:23.220
and you have an intuition of it

00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:26.220
it's this feeling that there's something

00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:27.960
else

00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:30.419
happening or some other kind of object

00:29:30.419 --> 00:29:33.179
or some other reality

00:29:33.179 --> 00:29:35.399
um that I whoops that I'm not imagining

00:29:35.399 --> 00:29:38.340
and sometimes I have to ask myself am I

00:29:38.340 --> 00:29:40.620
imagining it or

00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:44.039
am I is is this an Intuition or am I on

00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.580
to something

00:29:48.360 --> 00:29:50.899
foreign

00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:57.480
I'm on to this because something X and

00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:01.320
something y are both instances of Z and

00:30:01.320 --> 00:30:04.200
until I realized that I didn't know what

00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:06.980
Z was

00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:11.820
and that's when Z gets disclosed as

00:30:11.820 --> 00:30:13.500
accurate let's say

00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:17.880
so I can say you know cat is is like a

00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.100
dog now if I say that because they're

00:30:20.100 --> 00:30:23.340
both mammals that's just analysis but if

00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:26.279
I say a cat is like a dog

00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:28.559
and then I make I make a leap of

00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.840
imagination I say because they both use

00:30:30.840 --> 00:30:33.360
language in the same way and I hear

00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:36.120
myself imagine that that's that's kind

00:30:36.120 --> 00:30:37.980
of interesting

00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:40.260
then I might have

00:30:40.260 --> 00:30:43.380
an intuition well there's an Insight in

00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:45.840
there somewhere that

00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:48.659
the language of cats and the language of

00:30:48.659 --> 00:30:51.200
dogs

00:30:51.899 --> 00:30:54.600
is a possibility of an inter-species

00:30:54.600 --> 00:30:56.640
language

00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.799
that's what I want to say that's my

00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.860
intuition that's a z and now I realize

00:31:01.860 --> 00:31:03.899
that

00:31:03.899 --> 00:31:06.179
the language of dogs and the language of

00:31:06.179 --> 00:31:09.960
cats are both instances not of a dog

00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:12.000
language in a cat language but they can

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.559
speak to each other that there's

00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:15.960
something Z that I call there's an

00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.080
inter-species language oh

00:31:19.080 --> 00:31:21.179
I hadn't thought of that before I didn't

00:31:21.179 --> 00:31:24.960
imagine it I revealed it

00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:28.140
then I noticed that A and B

00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:29.640
humans

00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:31.500
and trees

00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:34.980
are like X and Y because they both have

00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:37.020
the ability

00:31:37.020 --> 00:31:39.480
to have it communicate into cross

00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:41.159
species

00:31:41.159 --> 00:31:43.140
so that's

00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:47.820
now I can use my imagination to set up

00:31:47.820 --> 00:31:53.220
a whole Discovery around this notion of

00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:56.039
Z which is revealed to me to my

00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.100
intuition as interspeat now all of a

00:31:59.100 --> 00:32:02.039
sudden I can do a Bonnie thing and write

00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:05.340
a book on the the common

00:32:05.340 --> 00:32:07.740
the common thing among trees and people

00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.720
I mean this is like a rich blendell it's

00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:13.140
like they're all telling stories

00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:14.700
right

00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:16.020
so

00:32:16.020 --> 00:32:19.380
so does that make sense

00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.899
see the Z didn't exist before this cut

00:32:21.899 --> 00:32:25.520
this Insight that that

00:32:25.520 --> 00:32:28.679
the words of people use in the cosmic

00:32:28.679 --> 00:32:30.659
micro background

00:32:30.659 --> 00:32:33.779
background microwaves is the same

00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:36.360
they're the same what are they the same

00:32:36.360 --> 00:32:40.799
they are instances of Z what is z I have

00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:42.720
this intuition they're the instances of

00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.880
this thing that I don't know yet and I

00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:48.659
and and then by the insight and then

00:32:48.659 --> 00:32:51.299
from there on now I can use my

00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:54.779
imagination to say A and B are like X

00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:57.720
and Y or cat because they also are

00:32:57.720 --> 00:32:59.880
instances of Z

00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:03.740
I built a whole new Theory this is how

00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:06.179
science and

00:33:06.179 --> 00:33:07.100
and

00:33:07.100 --> 00:33:10.399
philosophy work

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.059
so you could see it also in art

00:33:21.059 --> 00:33:23.220
that they tried this paint picture they

00:33:23.220 --> 00:33:24.720
paint this where they paint that way

00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.519
whoops

00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:29.159
this really wants to come in we're not

00:33:29.159 --> 00:33:33.539
doing you and then they notice that

00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.240
there's something behind what they're

00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.100
doing that they want to do but they

00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:39.779
haven't done it yet they don't want to

00:33:39.779 --> 00:33:42.899
be doing red on top of green or they

00:33:42.899 --> 00:33:46.559
just there's something there that

00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.080
is not present yet

00:33:49.080 --> 00:33:52.019
in my repertoire but I have an intuition

00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:54.600
man I can I can

00:33:54.600 --> 00:33:57.480
then they try something and ah I mean

00:33:57.480 --> 00:33:59.299
this is what happened to Jackson Pollock

00:33:59.299 --> 00:34:02.580
and then one day he saw what he was

00:34:02.580 --> 00:34:06.960
working with was not flat squiggles but

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.960
he was actually creating

00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:15.800
space I and in the into the canvas

00:34:16.020 --> 00:34:19.619
ah now he's got his Z

00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:22.020
it's a dimension he hadn't seen before

00:34:22.020 --> 00:34:26.099
now he can use his imagination to do

00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:28.440
more of that

00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.260
um by saying well this is like that and

00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:33.060
that is like this and then Bill build

00:34:33.060 --> 00:34:34.379
off of that

00:34:34.379 --> 00:34:35.700
so

00:34:35.700 --> 00:34:39.300
um so the accuracy of the intuition is

00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:41.960
in the

00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:44.940
finding instances of it

00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:48.480
and what I mean by that is not imaginary

00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.740
instances of it

00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:57.859
but real ones

00:35:01.680 --> 00:35:05.220
so does the word esomorphism point to

00:35:05.220 --> 00:35:09.000
the last phase where you

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.839
check if Z is in fact the same

00:35:12.839 --> 00:35:16.500
yeah so when you say something is like

00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:20.339
something A and B is like X X and Y

00:35:20.339 --> 00:35:22.500
because they're both instances of Z

00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:25.099
you're saying that there's something

00:35:25.099 --> 00:35:27.660
isomorphic to them

00:35:27.660 --> 00:35:28.680
um

00:35:28.680 --> 00:35:30.780
yeah

00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:34.200
um there's and and that because they

00:35:34.200 --> 00:35:36.180
share a deep structure what's the Deep

00:35:36.180 --> 00:35:39.420
structure they share Z how did you see Z

00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:41.339
before it was known you had an intuition

00:35:41.339 --> 00:35:43.260
of it how did you have an intuition of

00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:46.079
it because you actually could see X Y A

00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.200
and B and something was telling you that

00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:50.940
they were related in a way that's

00:35:50.940 --> 00:35:55.160
neither imaginary but is deeper

00:35:58.940 --> 00:36:01.980
Bonnie I don't mean to be a troll but

00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:04.500
um how are you defining real

00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:06.900
what's real

00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:07.820
um

00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:11.040
uh ordinary conventional

00:36:11.040 --> 00:36:14.339
like um uh okay like I'll give you an

00:36:14.339 --> 00:36:16.760
example

00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:18.900
um this is a weird example but it came

00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:21.599
up it's not a very good example but I

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:25.859
can imagine a unicorn or

00:36:25.859 --> 00:36:28.200
or I'm reading something in the

00:36:28.200 --> 00:36:30.599
literature of ancient literature and I'm

00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.300
thinking there's a one-horned thing I

00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:36.000
don't think it was a unicorn something

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.220
about what I'm reading in the tax

00:36:38.220 --> 00:36:41.099
spiritual text I have an intuition that

00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:42.900
it's literal right

00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:45.720
and so I can I can imagine all right but

00:36:45.720 --> 00:36:48.480
the Unicorn is real

00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.300
that doesn't good enough but if I find a

00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:53.280
narwhal

00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:56.880
I can say Ah that's what the texts were

00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:58.079
referring to

00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.859
so in that sense of narwhal is is real

00:37:01.859 --> 00:37:05.099
and the Unicorn is not but the intuition

00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:07.560
that there was something re that there's

00:37:07.560 --> 00:37:10.740
something there uh led to

00:37:10.740 --> 00:37:13.260
it was accurate because because it was

00:37:13.260 --> 00:37:17.820
verified by a narwhal now

00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:20.040
that's an easy one

00:37:20.040 --> 00:37:23.940
um there are other ways to you

00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:25.200
it

00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:26.880
see if you

00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.200
there are other ways to say real

00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:34.740
um so in science for example

00:37:34.740 --> 00:37:41.579
what is real is that if you uh do do

00:37:41.579 --> 00:37:45.420
if you do uh steps one two and three

00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:47.880
you'll get the results predicted by the

00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:49.740
theory

00:37:49.740 --> 00:37:51.900
and that makes it real so that's in

00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:53.339
science

00:37:53.339 --> 00:37:54.960
um

00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.500
and the results are always empirically

00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:00.839
verified so you're always listening or

00:38:00.839 --> 00:38:05.160
looking or having a I count something

00:38:05.160 --> 00:38:09.359
um and so they're always verified by the

00:38:09.359 --> 00:38:11.119
senses in the same way you have to go

00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:15.140
see a narwhal

00:38:15.359 --> 00:38:18.300
so that's what I mean by real

00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:22.940
um quite ordinary quite yeah yeah

00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:25.440
although science gets very bizarre all

00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.020
right is it his exposure unreal it's

00:38:28.020 --> 00:38:30.780
real if you define it as blah blah blah

00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:33.180
and then say if it's blah blah blah then

00:38:33.180 --> 00:38:34.920
you should be able to do one two three

00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.339
steps one two three and get these

00:38:38.339 --> 00:38:40.920
results that's what's predicted by the

00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:45.720
theory hence it's real as as defined

00:38:45.720 --> 00:38:48.240
so science can get pretty far out there

00:38:48.240 --> 00:38:52.200
but it's still quite rigorous

00:38:54.839 --> 00:38:56.339
um you know a lot of Einstein's

00:38:56.339 --> 00:38:58.500
intuitions

00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:03.180
um created uh so he had an intuition and

00:39:03.180 --> 00:39:06.540
the consequences of his intuition

00:39:06.540 --> 00:39:09.119
um imagined for example that light would

00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:11.700
curve around masses

00:39:11.700 --> 00:39:14.480
um that was not verified

00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.980
observationally until many years after

00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.380
he died

00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:22.560
um so some of these things take long

00:39:22.560 --> 00:39:25.820
long processes

00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:31.380
yeah I'm noticing like the entrapment of

00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:34.260
language especially the word to be

00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:37.500
or the verb to be and just how it kind

00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:39.420
of forecloses on things

00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:40.800
um it doesn't really account for the

00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:44.579
poarseness of bodies and identities

00:39:44.579 --> 00:39:45.420
um

00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:47.640
yeah it kind of deadens things I think

00:39:47.640 --> 00:39:48.960
in some ways

00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:50.460
um personally

00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:52.560
for me it kind of strangle holds the

00:39:52.560 --> 00:39:54.359
imagination or the maginal

00:39:54.359 --> 00:39:57.780
yeah yeah so it's not the imaginal

00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:00.660
this is yeah so

00:40:00.660 --> 00:40:02.460
um uh

00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:04.500
I mean I was answering the question that

00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:06.780
asked how is you know what is the what

00:40:06.780 --> 00:40:08.760
is a way you can understand the accuracy

00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.980
of intuition

00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:13.020
um so

00:40:13.020 --> 00:40:15.079
um

00:40:18.240 --> 00:40:21.780
intuition you see

00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:24.480
the way we use the words imagination is

00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.540
not tied to prediction at all you don't

00:40:27.540 --> 00:40:30.480
use your imagination to predict things

00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.119
but you use your intuition to predict

00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:34.740
things

00:40:34.740 --> 00:40:37.079
and so it's got to be tied to whether

00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:40.619
those things come true or are true

00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:41.599
um

00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:44.520
that's how when we say someone's

00:40:44.520 --> 00:40:47.220
intuitive that's what we mean that that

00:40:47.220 --> 00:40:50.339
they are in touch with predicting or

00:40:50.339 --> 00:40:53.700
saying things that are true that are

00:40:53.700 --> 00:40:57.180
whereas someone is imaginative we don't

00:40:57.180 --> 00:41:01.460
we don't use that phrase in the same way

00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:19.800
all right I'm gonna keep talking because

00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:21.420
my brain's going

00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:22.859
um

00:41:22.859 --> 00:41:25.140
um yeah I I definitely since there's

00:41:25.140 --> 00:41:26.880
something in there about like pattern

00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.640
recognition and being able to identify

00:41:29.640 --> 00:41:33.300
deep relationality and deeper patterns

00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:34.619
um that again sometimes our language

00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:36.119
forecloses on

00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:39.960
um with that verb to be

00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:42.420
um but yeah that's my sense is some of

00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:44.880
that intuitive predictive stuff is being

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.859
able to recognize patterns and how

00:41:46.859 --> 00:41:48.060
different things are weaving together

00:41:48.060 --> 00:41:50.460
out in the in the field in within the

00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:53.579
body yeah okay so this is this is

00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:56.460
exactly true so

00:41:56.460 --> 00:41:59.660
um uh

00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:04.380
this is where it now gets very nuanced

00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:06.140
um so

00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:09.300
intuition is very

00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:12.900
um so so let's say

00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:14.160
um

00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:15.720
um

00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:17.780
intuition we're going to tie into

00:42:17.780 --> 00:42:21.420
abstractions math and abstractions

00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:23.339
um and

00:42:23.339 --> 00:42:27.420
um but we need imagination also because

00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:30.359
the reason why we have an intuition of

00:42:30.359 --> 00:42:32.099
something what we can't see it is

00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:33.420
because

00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:36.839
were were not imagining possibilities

00:42:36.839 --> 00:42:40.680
that will will show us what we're trying

00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:41.940
to see

00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:43.859
in other words we need our imagination

00:42:43.859 --> 00:42:45.900
because we can't see it because we're

00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:48.660
locked into a box

00:42:48.660 --> 00:42:51.000
we only think there's only X number of

00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:53.339
patterns right like there's inside and

00:42:53.339 --> 00:42:55.320
there's outside how could the inside be

00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:57.780
in the outside and simultaneously the

00:42:57.780 --> 00:42:59.880
outside be the inside now I have to do

00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:02.700
like to lose a lot of De loses work was

00:43:02.700 --> 00:43:05.160
just imagining the different ways things

00:43:05.160 --> 00:43:07.200
could be related

00:43:07.200 --> 00:43:12.240
so that then ah by kind of using your

00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:14.780
imagination this is what theoretical

00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:17.160
mathematicians do they make up math that

00:43:17.160 --> 00:43:19.140
sometimes is useful sometimes it's not

00:43:19.140 --> 00:43:20.160
useful

00:43:20.160 --> 00:43:21.960
but

00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:25.200
so that might help you then generate the

00:43:25.200 --> 00:43:29.520
pattern that is useful that then you can

00:43:29.520 --> 00:43:31.520
um

00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:35.099
be helpful for you to recognize what the

00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:36.839
intuition is pointing to now they work

00:43:36.839 --> 00:43:39.359
both ways if you're letting your

00:43:39.359 --> 00:43:42.720
imagination run wild then the intuition

00:43:42.720 --> 00:43:44.880
is sniffing for the something that looks

00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.160
like a match right

00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:50.760
um but but if you just try to stare at

00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:52.380
the intuition

00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:55.140
you you can't see it because you're

00:43:55.140 --> 00:43:58.260
you're your creative powers are too

00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:00.000
constrained by what you haven't yet

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.220
imagined

00:44:02.220 --> 00:44:05.099
um and if if it's perfectly in sync then

00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:07.560
the intuition

00:44:07.560 --> 00:44:10.020
it might feel like one thing but a lot

00:44:10.020 --> 00:44:11.460
of times people

00:44:11.460 --> 00:44:14.099
you know they brainstorm they they

00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:16.440
imagine things they don't even think are

00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:18.359
real but they gotta get out of the box

00:44:18.359 --> 00:44:21.900
you know and then oh now you can't see

00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:22.800
oh

00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:26.640
that that thing I just made up out of

00:44:26.640 --> 00:44:30.240
pure play I can tell it kind of matches

00:44:30.240 --> 00:44:32.700
this sense I have

00:44:32.700 --> 00:44:36.540
um and then and and then you uh

00:44:36.540 --> 00:44:40.760
and then you take it take it from there

00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:42.480
so

00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:44.280
um

00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.859
and then you know you can get if

00:44:46.859 --> 00:44:49.740
depending upon what type of body mind

00:44:49.740 --> 00:44:52.560
you are you could have an intuition you

00:44:52.560 --> 00:44:54.839
could start imagining free play you

00:44:54.839 --> 00:44:57.000
might get caught and imaginal

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.339
and it may or may not have anything to

00:44:59.339 --> 00:45:02.280
do with the intuition at the end of the

00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:04.920
day you might have to come back and

00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.780
realize you kind of took a little

00:45:06.780 --> 00:45:10.500
vacation and that intuition is still

00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:13.740
there unformed you know partially born

00:45:13.740 --> 00:45:16.560
um uh

00:45:16.560 --> 00:45:19.380
yeah so sometimes

00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:20.940
sometimes

00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:22.400
yeah

00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:26.040
sometimes they're all working uh it's

00:45:26.040 --> 00:45:28.260
not like the intuition is always running

00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:31.140
the show either you know

00:45:31.140 --> 00:45:34.440
um so that's kind of how if you if you

00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.200
I'm sure this makes sense to you if you

00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:40.200
know people who do a lot of this this is

00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:42.780
they'll get swept up in the imaginal and

00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:44.760
then you're like but what was that you

00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:46.740
were working on before and it's still

00:45:46.740 --> 00:45:50.280
there uh and they took this cool side

00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:51.780
trip

00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:54.960
um and um you know in the end everything

00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.800
it is related to everything else but

00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.859
um

00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:04.800
yeah the imaginal once it has its own

00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:06.780
power it's not always in service to

00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:10.380
something that is uh I think intuition

00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:12.599
the way we use the term is a little more

00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:15.599
pragmatic in the sense that

00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:17.880
we do use the term in the sense that

00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:20.579
we're trying to predict something or to

00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:21.319
to

00:46:21.319 --> 00:46:24.000
presence something that's absent or

00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.040
something like that whereas the

00:46:26.040 --> 00:46:29.040
imagination is a little more playful and

00:46:29.040 --> 00:46:31.020
the imaginal

00:46:31.020 --> 00:46:33.839
um is not in service to anything it it's

00:46:33.839 --> 00:46:36.060
it always takes you over and is in

00:46:36.060 --> 00:46:38.220
service to you know

00:46:38.220 --> 00:46:41.000
as if it's in service to a whole other

00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:44.040
god or goddess or

00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:45.599
you know

00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:46.980
um

00:46:46.980 --> 00:46:50.660
in my experience so

00:46:50.819 --> 00:46:52.140
um

00:46:52.140 --> 00:46:58.020
you just described a lot of my

00:46:58.020 --> 00:47:00.119
struggles

00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:02.119
yeah who knows

00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:06.680
especially yeah the part about like

00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:09.720
because I always get these intuitions of

00:47:09.720 --> 00:47:11.819
things of like yeah does it feel right

00:47:11.819 --> 00:47:13.440
and that uh

00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.839
but I never know why and it's like

00:47:15.839 --> 00:47:18.660
and I often I'll you know I'll go to

00:47:18.660 --> 00:47:20.339
other people like I'll say like it

00:47:20.339 --> 00:47:21.839
doesn't feel right and it's almost like

00:47:21.839 --> 00:47:22.980
I'm

00:47:22.980 --> 00:47:25.920
using them as my imagination to get like

00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.800
oh no that's not it that's not it and it

00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.140
kind of makes me think of like maybe my

00:47:31.140 --> 00:47:33.079
imagination has been like

00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.300
reduced or something or not exercised

00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:39.920
enough so that's good to know

00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:47.579
it happens in you know these we space

00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:50.460
practices too like people could have

00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:54.839
come come around to solve a problem

00:47:54.839 --> 00:47:57.440
and they could be shared or distributed

00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:01.339
intuitions that that

00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:04.200
there's an answer to it you know like

00:48:04.200 --> 00:48:06.060
you're almost there

00:48:06.060 --> 00:48:08.099
so close you can taste it and then

00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:10.440
people start really

00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:13.440
Working Collective imagination and then

00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.359
the next thing you know they're all like

00:48:15.359 --> 00:48:18.300
transported to like where Sasquatch I

00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:19.920
mean bigfooters I mean I've seen this

00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:21.859
happen like Bigfoot comes sometimes

00:48:21.859 --> 00:48:24.300
Bigfoot comes here in the Pacific

00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:26.579
Northwest people are starting to talk

00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:29.839
about Bigfoot and and that's truly

00:48:29.839 --> 00:48:32.940
you've kind of entered the collective

00:48:32.940 --> 00:48:34.619
imaginal

00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:38.900
um and uh

00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.900
the kind of problem-solving intention

00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:46.020
you had when you came in is is is kind

00:48:46.020 --> 00:48:46.859
of

00:48:46.859 --> 00:48:50.520
not is is become secondary to this wild

00:48:50.520 --> 00:48:54.900
trip you're making uh together uh

00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:58.140
but it's also kind of nice to

00:48:58.140 --> 00:49:01.560
like ReDiscover the practicality of the

00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:04.440
imagination like to use it

00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.720
to keep it in check like to you know be

00:49:06.720 --> 00:49:08.640
where it can go into

00:49:08.640 --> 00:49:11.880
stuff that's maybe not pragmatic but to

00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.680
also be able to like

00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:16.140
yeah like lately just like getting

00:49:16.140 --> 00:49:19.380
intuition and then simulating like oh

00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:21.060
would that scenario be good or is that

00:49:21.060 --> 00:49:23.400
the one or is that the one like that

00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:26.040
feels very useful

00:49:26.040 --> 00:49:28.500
yeah I mean I think we need a lot more

00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:31.800
pragmatic imagination in our world uh

00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:33.599
because what we have is pragmatic

00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:36.000
analysis and then we have people out in

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.140
you know out in the imaginal

00:49:39.140 --> 00:49:43.920
and not uh and so it's this middle

00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.400
ground that I think is very very needed

00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:52.319
to uh solve our problems in imaginative

00:49:52.319 --> 00:49:55.980
ways you know into new ways and so you

00:49:55.980 --> 00:49:58.560
have people like Donna haraway and

00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:01.859
simpoesis and all these you when you

00:50:01.859 --> 00:50:04.020
it's a struggle to read their work

00:50:04.020 --> 00:50:06.300
because they're using words in a

00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:08.280
different way and the constructs and the

00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:09.780
way they're relating things together

00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:12.420
don't it's very hard to and they're just

00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:14.220
they're working a problem they're

00:50:14.220 --> 00:50:16.619
working the anthropocene or or David

00:50:16.619 --> 00:50:19.619
Chandler and his anthropocene Islands or

00:50:19.619 --> 00:50:23.880
read bio AC comalafes

00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:27.540
new essay part one it's 20 is it's gonna

00:50:27.540 --> 00:50:31.140
and and it's all about queer exigencies

00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:35.220
and anthropocentric uh corporate you

00:50:35.220 --> 00:50:39.300
know all these disembarkation and

00:50:39.300 --> 00:50:44.160
it's it's a way it's it's people it's a

00:50:44.160 --> 00:50:47.760
it's an exploration of the in pragmatic

00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:51.240
imagination you know and

00:50:51.240 --> 00:50:52.440
um

00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:56.220
yeah so Charles eisenstein is a perfect

00:50:56.220 --> 00:50:58.559
example of pragmatic information sacred

00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:01.859
economies it's in service to a real goal

00:51:01.859 --> 00:51:03.960
um and

00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.260
um he's trying to

00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:09.319
reimagine relationships and reimagine

00:51:09.319 --> 00:51:13.680
structures and reimagine worlds and

00:51:13.680 --> 00:51:15.660
um yeah but he's also you know a

00:51:15.660 --> 00:51:18.059
scientist in some sense of the term he

00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:18.900
he

00:51:18.900 --> 00:51:23.280
considers that pejorative right now but

00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:25.859
um yeah but I think we need a lot more

00:51:25.859 --> 00:51:29.520
pragmatic uh imagination and

00:51:29.520 --> 00:51:32.760
um one of the ways okay let me just show

00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:34.680
you this thing

00:51:34.680 --> 00:51:37.020
um that wanted to come up

00:51:37.020 --> 00:51:39.119
so if you're interested there's this

00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:40.740
great uh

00:51:40.740 --> 00:51:42.680
well

00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:45.720
uh called

00:51:45.720 --> 00:51:50.960
it's a called design and bound

00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:02.520
this is a two-way invoke design and

00:52:02.520 --> 00:52:04.920
bound designing for emergence in a White

00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:09.900
Water World by Ann Pendleton Julian

00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:13.619
um and this is taken from

00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:15.839
um a chapter on pragmatic

00:52:15.839 --> 00:52:17.400
um

00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:20.300
on pragmatic

00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:23.040
imagination so

00:52:23.040 --> 00:52:25.800
um what she says what's important to see

00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:29.099
about this this

00:52:29.099 --> 00:52:31.200
image and I know

00:52:31.200 --> 00:52:34.260
the resolution sucks but

00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:35.760
um so

00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.680
I forgot what these two things are

00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:45.599
I think this is a meaningful object

00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:48.900
this doesn't matter so

00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:51.540
the movement here down here is sense

00:52:51.540 --> 00:52:54.660
making imagination for sense making

00:52:54.660 --> 00:52:57.359
and here is Imagination for sense

00:52:57.359 --> 00:53:00.079
breaking

00:53:00.720 --> 00:53:03.660
and so these three types so you have

00:53:03.660 --> 00:53:05.520
your perception and then these three

00:53:05.520 --> 00:53:07.680
types of reasoning

00:53:07.680 --> 00:53:11.040
try to make more sense

00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:13.200
and what she says is we need more

00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:16.559
imagination to sense break so that we

00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:21.240
can make new sense and so speculation

00:53:21.240 --> 00:53:24.540
starts to sense break

00:53:24.540 --> 00:53:28.319
right speculative philosophy spec and

00:53:28.319 --> 00:53:31.380
then ex then we experiment uh so if we

00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:33.119
we speculate something we have to

00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:37.440
experiment uh to see so so it's not just

00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.440
fantasy

00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:44.819
and uh free play uh so beta testing

00:53:44.819 --> 00:53:46.559
prototyping

00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:51.480
Etc and this is a further drawn out so

00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:56.280
so you have uh you start to

00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:57.660
um

00:53:57.660 --> 00:54:01.099
since make you start out since making

00:54:01.099 --> 00:54:04.680
and then you get to speculation and you

00:54:04.680 --> 00:54:10.200
start these recursive ways to uh sense

00:54:10.200 --> 00:54:14.160
break and what's important here is this

00:54:14.160 --> 00:54:17.099
area of speculation is

00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:20.160
driven by counter factuals it could be

00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:24.480
otherwise right it could be this if I

00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:25.800
was

00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:27.720
um

00:54:27.720 --> 00:54:30.420
I said this in an interview the other

00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:31.800
day if I

00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.380
was asked one thing

00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:36.540
that I thought

00:54:36.540 --> 00:54:40.440
the future of Education was it I would

00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:44.599
teach children to think with

00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:47.760
counterfactuals so Steve Jobs said this

00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:50.220
you know imagine something that doesn't

00:54:50.220 --> 00:54:51.300
exist

00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:55.319
and then ask yourself why can't it exist

00:54:55.319 --> 00:54:58.920
why shouldn't it exist and

00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:00.839
um so

00:55:00.839 --> 00:55:03.420
um you know this is imagine a world that

00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:06.920
your heart knows is more beautiful so

00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:10.559
one of the things that we you know that

00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:14.220
we have ai now so when kids imagine a

00:55:14.220 --> 00:55:17.520
counter factual then

00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:19.800
um uh

00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:23.460
then the AI can help it

00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:24.720
um

00:55:24.720 --> 00:55:28.500
the AI can help it

00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:30.619
um

00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:34.800
help you then

00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.660
figure out what is possible and what's

00:55:36.660 --> 00:55:38.460
not possible and every time it tells you

00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:40.260
it's not possible then you imagine

00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:42.300
another counter factual

00:55:42.300 --> 00:55:45.839
and then you keep going until you have

00:55:45.839 --> 00:55:50.220
enough pre-play in the system that you

00:55:50.220 --> 00:55:52.859
get closer and closer to what is

00:55:52.859 --> 00:55:55.020
actually possible from this counter

00:55:55.020 --> 00:55:56.160
factual

00:55:56.160 --> 00:55:58.619
right so

00:55:58.619 --> 00:55:59.700
um

00:55:59.700 --> 00:56:02.540
um this is

00:56:02.540 --> 00:56:05.099
how we should be

00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:08.700
this is what I would uh how I would

00:56:08.700 --> 00:56:12.380
teach teach people

00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:16.680
Bonnie it seems without

00:56:16.680 --> 00:56:19.319
like a practice of pragmatic imagination

00:56:19.319 --> 00:56:21.180
or

00:56:21.180 --> 00:56:24.180
like a grounded intuition we're highly

00:56:24.180 --> 00:56:28.260
vulnerable to imaginal hijacking

00:56:28.260 --> 00:56:31.020
kind of thinking of like Q Anon or some

00:56:31.020 --> 00:56:32.359
of these

00:56:32.359 --> 00:56:34.319
aggregoric

00:56:34.319 --> 00:56:37.880
energies that seem to

00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:41.220
possess mimetically

00:56:41.220 --> 00:56:43.920
you know swaths of

00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.700
beings

00:56:48.780 --> 00:56:50.460
that may not be interesting to talk

00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:52.440
about no no it is interesting to talk

00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:53.460
about

00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:57.859
um and it's one of my

00:56:58.200 --> 00:57:02.760
yeah it Ruffles my feathers as they say

00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:03.599
um

00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:05.720
um

00:57:09.680 --> 00:57:13.500
I think many people's

00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:17.300
I think we're suffering

00:57:20.520 --> 00:57:23.460
there's whole generations of people

00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:29.660
who don't want to attack the world

00:57:29.819 --> 00:57:32.220
so I talk about artists right artists

00:57:32.220 --> 00:57:35.700
not people who imagine doing art

00:57:35.700 --> 00:57:37.680
they have to do art and this is the

00:57:37.680 --> 00:57:39.660
burden of the artist they have to

00:57:39.660 --> 00:57:41.760
 put paint on their canvas and

00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:43.859
pain isn't like doesn't give a

00:57:43.859 --> 00:57:45.599
about what it looks like

00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:47.460
they have to struggle with the world

00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:49.980
though once you you start making

00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:52.520
something

00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:57.780
uh you you have the problem of the world

00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:00.059
and when you just get caught up in your

00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:02.640
imaginal you don't have those problems

00:58:02.640 --> 00:58:05.460
but you don't change anything either you

00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:08.960
basically exit the world

00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:11.760
um and

00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:15.319
um so a lot of people who have

00:58:15.319 --> 00:58:17.520
interesting ideas of how the world

00:58:17.520 --> 00:58:21.240
should be don't actually like the don't

00:58:21.240 --> 00:58:23.760
they're very suspicious of the world

00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.880
they don't they they won't they don't do

00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:29.099
anything in the world

00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:32.579
because it's resistant to

00:58:32.579 --> 00:58:35.180
your imagination

00:58:35.180 --> 00:58:38.880
but with a different

00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:40.160
um

00:58:40.160 --> 00:58:42.359
and it's because of the way we're

00:58:42.359 --> 00:58:43.980
brought up you know there's only one

00:58:43.980 --> 00:58:47.160
right answer and and there's only one

00:58:47.160 --> 00:58:50.099
way to do things and if if you suggest

00:58:50.099 --> 00:58:52.619
otherwise you're ashamed until you feel

00:58:52.619 --> 00:58:54.020
you're completely

00:58:54.020 --> 00:58:56.819
disempowered by the time you're 20. like

00:58:56.819 --> 00:58:59.220
the only thing that they want you to do

00:58:59.220 --> 00:59:01.079
is sit in front of a screen and be

00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:04.380
attached to the machine and so

00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:05.160
um

00:59:05.160 --> 00:59:05.220
[Music]

00:59:05.220 --> 00:59:07.220
um

00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:11.660
yeah so I think this is a real problem

00:59:11.660 --> 00:59:15.240
that people like to live in virtual

00:59:15.240 --> 00:59:17.339
reality they like the farm in Farmville

00:59:17.339 --> 00:59:21.660
on on on on Facebook but they would

00:59:21.660 --> 00:59:23.760
never put a shovel in the ground where

00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.400
it's just it's just imaginal and if

00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:28.619
you're in Farmville and Facebook then

00:59:28.619 --> 00:59:30.839
you have no way to

00:59:30.839 --> 00:59:33.780
imagine doing something different

00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:36.000
causally in the world we don't we don't

00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.040
believe we have causal agency in the

00:59:38.040 --> 00:59:39.420
world

00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:40.020
um

00:59:40.020 --> 00:59:42.359
so the

00:59:42.359 --> 00:59:46.020
I think this this is why I talk about

00:59:46.020 --> 00:59:49.559
the kinds of body Minds we are today you

00:59:49.559 --> 00:59:52.619
know 3000 years ago people had sluggish

00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:54.660
body Minds maybe they had to be taught

00:59:54.660 --> 00:59:57.720
more about the imaginal but I think this

00:59:57.720 --> 01:00:03.480
is this is uh overdone in society

01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:04.740
um and like I said you don't have to be

01:00:04.740 --> 01:00:06.720
a scientist you could be an artist and

01:00:06.720 --> 01:00:11.520
the same thing same burden uh or you

01:00:11.520 --> 01:00:13.559
know people who make tapestry or

01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:15.599
anything anything you're going to come

01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:19.160
across the same uh

01:00:19.160 --> 01:00:21.599
stubbornness the world is very stubborn

01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.740
it's obstinate

01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:27.299
um

01:00:27.299 --> 01:00:30.540
and that's where true creativity and

01:00:30.540 --> 01:00:33.900
intuition and insight lies is this

01:00:33.900 --> 01:00:36.359
interface between the person in the

01:00:36.359 --> 01:00:38.940
world uh not between the person and

01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:41.780
their imagination

01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:44.760
seems to me Bonnie that this is a great

01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:46.920
segue to one of the things in your text

01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:49.440
and I I'm assuming that we're talking

01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:50.700
about

01:00:50.700 --> 01:00:53.819
let's let's come check again the word

01:00:53.819 --> 01:00:55.619
that you came up with that's related to

01:00:55.619 --> 01:00:58.559
aesthetic with a sin or something yes in

01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:01.500
Aesthetics yeah yeah so one of the

01:01:01.500 --> 01:01:04.760
things that like really hit me hard was

01:01:04.760 --> 01:01:09.020
avoid using imaginary images

01:01:09.020 --> 01:01:11.700
parentheses virtual

01:01:11.700 --> 01:01:15.780
to articulate our felt sense

01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:17.520
and to me

01:01:17.520 --> 01:01:19.500
I was saying oh my God that's exactly

01:01:19.500 --> 01:01:22.079
what I do all the time

01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.599
and then I thought no that's not what I

01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:26.520
do all the time but it is both right

01:01:26.520 --> 01:01:29.700
it's really fascinating like so I'm

01:01:29.700 --> 01:01:31.859
meeting more and more people that tell

01:01:31.859 --> 01:01:33.540
me

01:01:33.540 --> 01:01:36.480
that it's already there and that you you

01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:38.700
get to know right

01:01:38.700 --> 01:01:41.880
but to me I can know on so many levels

01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:43.680
that if I don't have some sort of

01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:46.020
representation in my mind at different

01:01:46.020 --> 01:01:47.280
scales

01:01:47.280 --> 01:01:50.760
I can't seem to get to relevant

01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:54.900
so it seems so paradoxical to me

01:01:54.900 --> 01:01:57.780
so you say avoid using

01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:00.299
so I have I do have artifacts at

01:02:00.299 --> 01:02:02.400
different scales then I can adjust them

01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.819
based on my imagination but then the the

01:02:05.819 --> 01:02:08.040
other thing that's fascinating is what

01:02:08.040 --> 01:02:10.859
we are perceiving

01:02:10.859 --> 01:02:14.220
of the outer world creating empathic

01:02:14.220 --> 01:02:15.720
resonance

01:02:15.720 --> 01:02:18.240
like geez you know I'd really like to do

01:02:18.240 --> 01:02:22.559
that and uh I wonder if it's even

01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:26.400
accessible or if I'm so stuck in my box

01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.280
with all these endless representations

01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:31.920
that finally I'm sort of running away

01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:36.480
from this empathic resonance

01:02:39.859 --> 01:02:44.640
that the the higher level uh

01:02:44.640 --> 01:02:46.640
relationships

01:02:46.640 --> 01:02:49.280
they come from

01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:52.079
empathic resonance

01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:54.299
um but there's like a trigger element

01:02:54.299 --> 01:02:58.740
like you probably this is this okay so

01:02:58.740 --> 01:03:00.599
this is also true for people on the

01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:02.400
Spectrum it's not that they don't feel

01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:04.140
or they're not sinistered they're

01:03:04.140 --> 01:03:07.859
extremely synesthetic and as soon as the

01:03:07.859 --> 01:03:11.040
energy comes up it goes into patterns

01:03:11.040 --> 01:03:12.960
and pattern generation and stuff like

01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:17.040
that and the challenge is to slow the

01:03:17.040 --> 01:03:19.740
whole thing down and get to know where

01:03:19.740 --> 01:03:21.240
the source is

01:03:21.240 --> 01:03:22.799
because then you will understand

01:03:22.799 --> 01:03:25.140
everything else that's generated above

01:03:25.140 --> 01:03:26.579
it better

01:03:26.579 --> 01:03:28.920
so it's it comes it's got to come from

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:32.099
it it's it's it's it's you know

01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:33.059
um but

01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:35.280
but then the other problem is if you can

01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:37.140
stay closer to the source you can talk

01:03:37.140 --> 01:03:38.339
to anyone

01:03:38.339 --> 01:03:41.280
but if your levels of extraction get

01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:43.799
really big then other people have to

01:03:43.799 --> 01:03:46.619
enter your language game at a very high

01:03:46.619 --> 01:03:50.400
high level and that excludes a lot of

01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:51.299
people

01:03:51.299 --> 01:03:54.180
it's just really hard

01:03:54.180 --> 01:03:57.180
um so it's more eclectic

01:03:57.180 --> 01:04:00.740
um yeah so

01:04:05.339 --> 01:04:08.160
so I think that you know I think we're

01:04:08.160 --> 01:04:11.880
all humans at this basic level it's just

01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:15.359
for some people as soon as their

01:04:15.359 --> 01:04:17.460
synesthetic

01:04:17.460 --> 01:04:19.859
capacity comes on it just it just

01:04:19.859 --> 01:04:23.640
explodes into to higher level uh

01:04:23.640 --> 01:04:27.140
abstractions really fast

01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:35.660
higher level abstractions really fast

01:04:35.660 --> 01:04:40.200
unless maybe you can tie those so it's

01:04:40.200 --> 01:04:42.480
easier the interrelationship of the

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:45.380
senses to what you've already presented

01:04:45.380 --> 01:04:47.900
imagination and

01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:51.660
all your slides I mean tie it to the

01:04:51.660 --> 01:04:54.839
concrete order rather than going extra

01:04:54.839 --> 01:04:56.819
extra

01:04:56.819 --> 01:05:00.440
going off into nowhere land

01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:04.559
yeah there's more there's more leverage

01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:06.960
at the concrete I mean it depends what

01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:09.540
you're trying to do you know are you

01:05:09.540 --> 01:05:11.400
trying to

01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:12.720
um

01:05:12.720 --> 01:05:14.880
make a difference in the world I mean

01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:16.980
the problem the thing is

01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:20.880
if if people are talking

01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:24.839
so look at AI chat gbt

01:05:24.839 --> 01:05:28.700
is it actually talking to you

01:05:29.640 --> 01:05:31.020
no

01:05:31.020 --> 01:05:33.359
it's just kind of organizing

01:05:33.359 --> 01:05:35.460
abstractions in such a way that they

01:05:35.460 --> 01:05:37.440
make sense to you because it's learned

01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:40.920
how there's only a handful of phrases

01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:44.400
people use under certain conditions and

01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:46.200
it puts them together and it talks to

01:05:46.200 --> 01:05:48.299
you okay

01:05:48.299 --> 01:05:51.000
now let's say you know you can have

01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:53.099
people are doing this yeah they have one

01:05:53.099 --> 01:05:56.700
chat GPT asking the other one question

01:05:56.700 --> 01:05:59.099
questions now are they talking to each

01:05:59.099 --> 01:06:00.960
other no

01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:05.280
it's like you know that those those uh

01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:07.260
machines they don't have them anymore

01:06:07.260 --> 01:06:09.240
but maybe they do I don't know how they

01:06:09.240 --> 01:06:11.040
work but when we were a kid you'd bring

01:06:11.040 --> 01:06:13.380
a bunch of coins to the bank and they'd

01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:16.200
throw them a thing and then the the the

01:06:16.200 --> 01:06:18.180
pennies would all go here and the dimes

01:06:18.180 --> 01:06:20.339
would go here and it looks like the

01:06:20.339 --> 01:06:23.160
machine is knows it looks like the

01:06:23.160 --> 01:06:25.440
machine knows how to sort money right

01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:27.960
but it's just all it's doing is that

01:06:27.960 --> 01:06:30.900
they're different sizes right do you

01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:32.220
know those machines I'm talking about

01:06:32.220 --> 01:06:34.559
that's what chat GPT is it's just

01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:36.619
sorting language

01:06:36.619 --> 01:06:40.799
across tons of language you know and so

01:06:40.799 --> 01:06:42.539
so

01:06:42.539 --> 01:06:45.240
now here's the thing when two highly

01:06:45.240 --> 01:06:47.640
abstract people get together and they

01:06:47.640 --> 01:06:49.920
talk to each other like that on that

01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:51.660
level it's the same thing they're not

01:06:51.660 --> 01:06:55.380
talking but without a doubt there's a

01:06:55.380 --> 01:07:00.660
transfer of energy and felt sins and

01:07:00.660 --> 01:07:03.720
maybe camaraderie or maybe ambition or

01:07:03.720 --> 01:07:04.520
maybe

01:07:04.520 --> 01:07:09.119
anger all that is going on also and so

01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:11.579
when you see sometimes people very high

01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:13.260
abstraction and they're talking they're

01:07:13.260 --> 01:07:15.180
not you can tell they're not making

01:07:15.180 --> 01:07:17.640
sense of each other

01:07:17.640 --> 01:07:19.680
um you just stop paying attention to the

01:07:19.680 --> 01:07:23.099
words because unlike chat GPT talking to

01:07:23.099 --> 01:07:24.599
each other where it's nothing's

01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:26.400
happening with humans there's always

01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:28.619
something else happening there's always

01:07:28.619 --> 01:07:31.079
something else happening and so it's the

01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:33.780
same like when you see like a spoiled

01:07:33.780 --> 01:07:36.000
kid or

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:37.500
um uh

01:07:37.500 --> 01:07:41.880
um a child or an older lady who who

01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:44.880
talks to their a dog the dog doesn't

01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.160
know what the the lady is saying

01:07:47.160 --> 01:07:51.119
but communication is happening right and

01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:52.319
so

01:07:52.319 --> 01:07:54.180
so

01:07:54.180 --> 01:07:54.960
um

01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:56.780
um so yes

01:07:56.780 --> 01:08:01.079
yes and no at the same time yes the

01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:03.420
signifiers and the blah blah blah the

01:08:03.420 --> 01:08:05.640
Galaxy brain sometimes there's actually

01:08:05.640 --> 01:08:08.520
no communication happening

01:08:08.520 --> 01:08:10.440
but there's always communication

01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:13.200
happening between people

01:08:13.200 --> 01:08:16.799
do you see what I'm saying like so so

01:08:16.799 --> 01:08:20.239
you can't escape it

01:08:20.699 --> 01:08:24.120
um but you it may be better to

01:08:24.120 --> 01:08:25.500
understand what you're really

01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:27.960
communicating and where communication is

01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:31.020
or is not happening

01:08:31.020 --> 01:08:34.020
um and so when you watch when I watch

01:08:34.020 --> 01:08:37.140
genre veggie in after Socrates I don't

01:08:37.140 --> 01:08:38.819
if I'm just like

01:08:38.819 --> 01:08:41.580
I have no clue what he's what

01:08:41.580 --> 01:08:43.560
he's saying so then I stopped listening

01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:45.000
to the words and I see on me I'm

01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:46.679
struggling with something I don't know

01:08:46.679 --> 01:08:49.500
what he's struggling with like but as

01:08:49.500 --> 01:08:51.960
far as I can concerned I showed you

01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:54.060
after 15 episodes he has this

01:08:54.060 --> 01:08:55.620
proposition

01:08:55.620 --> 01:08:58.500
isn't it doesn't you have to project on

01:08:58.500 --> 01:09:01.319
it it doesn't make any sense

01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:04.799
it's not it's not a sentence not a

01:09:04.799 --> 01:09:07.259
proposition it's not a proposal it's

01:09:07.259 --> 01:09:11.100
word salad it doesn't make any sense now

01:09:11.100 --> 01:09:13.020
I know if you're smart and you read all

01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:14.819
that philosophy you can make it make

01:09:14.819 --> 01:09:16.319
sense you're going to say oh this word

01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:17.880
in the history of philosophy and then

01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:19.980
how you're gonna talk to him and and you

01:09:19.980 --> 01:09:21.480
could compose

01:09:21.480 --> 01:09:24.299
some meaning out of it but you put the

01:09:24.299 --> 01:09:25.859
meaning in it

01:09:25.859 --> 01:09:29.100
it doesn't make sense

01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:31.080
and then there's a whole bunch of people

01:09:31.080 --> 01:09:32.880
walking around do you ever see like

01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:35.699
clients scientists talking to each other

01:09:35.699 --> 01:09:38.279
I mean they're not actually talking it

01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:40.339
doesn't make any sense there's so much

01:09:40.339 --> 01:09:44.699
around that is like like and we may and

01:09:44.699 --> 01:09:47.699
you have to you have to train yourself

01:09:47.699 --> 01:09:50.279
to pay attention because if you don't

01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:52.080
pay attention you're imaginable we'll

01:09:52.080 --> 01:09:54.239
just come in and start to make sense out

01:09:54.239 --> 01:09:57.360
of things that that don't make sense

01:09:57.360 --> 01:09:59.820
it doesn't it's not making any sense

01:09:59.820 --> 01:10:03.140
it's just words that trigger

01:10:03.140 --> 01:10:05.520
arousals that trigger other words that

01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:07.739
trigger you know

01:10:07.739 --> 01:10:10.080
um so

01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:12.600
um it's like a bunch of Catholics going

01:10:12.600 --> 01:10:15.060
like Jesus Lord and then they say

01:10:15.060 --> 01:10:18.360
something what they're saying is not the

01:10:18.360 --> 01:10:22.020
meaning it's the whole arousal when you

01:10:22.020 --> 01:10:23.900
know ritual

01:10:23.900 --> 01:10:27.420
uh State change

01:10:27.420 --> 01:10:31.040
um so so like

01:10:31.679 --> 01:10:34.620
I would be very happy if people learned

01:10:34.620 --> 01:10:36.600
and this is why people can't write

01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:39.360
because they don't know how to talk not

01:10:39.360 --> 01:10:41.040
really

01:10:41.040 --> 01:10:43.020
if you want to know do you know how to

01:10:43.020 --> 01:10:44.159
speak

01:10:44.159 --> 01:10:46.199
try writing something that someone can

01:10:46.199 --> 01:10:48.840
read and understand

01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:50.460
well we don't know how to write because

01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:52.260
we don't know how to speak we know how

01:10:52.260 --> 01:10:53.820
to communicate

01:10:53.820 --> 01:10:57.440
that's always happening

01:10:58.620 --> 01:11:01.440
this is a disaster in the educational

01:11:01.440 --> 01:11:03.920
system

01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:09.440
Bonnie the

01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:12.300
this this is a little bit of a Vortex so

01:11:12.300 --> 01:11:15.679
I'm not sure where it'll go but

01:11:16.320 --> 01:11:21.540
I'm thinking about empathic projection

01:11:21.540 --> 01:11:24.540
as a clue to

01:11:24.540 --> 01:11:27.140
something we were looking at

01:11:27.140 --> 01:11:29.580
way back in the

01:11:29.580 --> 01:11:31.679
communal self

01:11:31.679 --> 01:11:33.659
um

01:11:33.659 --> 01:11:38.520
and Cosmopolitan self uh

01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:42.300
where you were asking us to

01:11:42.300 --> 01:11:44.100
imagine

01:11:44.100 --> 01:11:48.239
the next larger subjectivity

01:11:48.239 --> 01:11:51.300
and a different origin story or what is

01:11:51.300 --> 01:11:54.179
sort of what is the origin story in this

01:11:54.179 --> 01:11:58.440
liminal Space Between Worlds

01:11:58.440 --> 01:12:00.260
and

01:12:00.260 --> 01:12:03.719
we didn't have then what we have now in

01:12:03.719 --> 01:12:07.380
terms of the parsing of perception and

01:12:07.380 --> 01:12:11.640
Imagination and intuition and

01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:13.800
analysis

01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:15.860
um

01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:17.820
and

01:12:17.820 --> 01:12:21.000
there's something about what you're

01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:23.640
developing now that makes

01:12:23.640 --> 01:12:26.640
subjectivity

01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:31.980
um the experience

01:12:31.980 --> 01:12:33.480
of

01:12:33.480 --> 01:12:36.000
empathic projection that we worked on at

01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:40.040
the uh last weekend

01:12:40.080 --> 01:12:42.780
there's something reassembling itself I

01:12:42.780 --> 01:12:45.659
guess is what I'm trying to say

01:12:45.659 --> 01:12:49.280
um yeah so we talked about every society

01:12:49.280 --> 01:12:52.140
is involved in the production of a

01:12:52.140 --> 01:12:56.159
subjectivity right so uh uh a

01:12:56.159 --> 01:12:58.320
hunter-gatherer a tribe their

01:12:58.320 --> 01:13:00.480
subjectivity their sense of what is like

01:13:00.480 --> 01:13:04.020
to be a self which is kind of what the

01:13:04.020 --> 01:13:05.699
question is what is it like to be you

01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:09.659
it's different than the subjectivity of

01:13:09.659 --> 01:13:12.000
a Westerner

01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:14.400
um we looked at for example in that

01:13:14.400 --> 01:13:17.640
course that

01:13:17.640 --> 01:13:19.679
um that

01:13:19.679 --> 01:13:22.500
our subjectivity is highly conditioned

01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:25.860
to calculate exchange value

01:13:25.860 --> 01:13:30.780
and even though we are very smart and we

01:13:30.780 --> 01:13:33.060
read Charles eisenstein and all these

01:13:33.060 --> 01:13:37.440
when we we can say how great these other

01:13:37.440 --> 01:13:41.400
sacred economies are the basic muscle

01:13:41.400 --> 01:13:43.920
that is our subjectivity calculates

01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:45.360
exchange value

01:13:45.360 --> 01:13:48.719
uh in a capitalist sense so we noticed

01:13:48.719 --> 01:13:50.520
that

01:13:50.520 --> 01:13:52.340
um that

01:13:52.340 --> 01:13:54.840
you could imagine I think this is what

01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:55.920
you're saying you could imagine

01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:58.140
producing subjects

01:13:58.140 --> 01:14:01.199
who are interested in calculating what

01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:03.600
it's like the word calculate is weird

01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:07.020
here to be you

01:14:07.020 --> 01:14:10.320
and that would be

01:14:10.320 --> 01:14:13.739
it would automatically close all the

01:14:13.739 --> 01:14:15.239
loops because that's what that

01:14:15.239 --> 01:14:17.640
subjectivity would be interested in it

01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:21.000
would it wouldn't be tempted to buy

01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:23.040
things it wouldn't be tempted to make

01:14:23.040 --> 01:14:27.000
money because literally they had that

01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:28.860
person or that Society had different

01:14:28.860 --> 01:14:31.380
subjectivity

01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:35.340
um in the same you know so so

01:14:35.340 --> 01:14:38.159
um I wrote that in in consumer Ed like

01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:43.320
people who value different things were

01:14:43.320 --> 01:14:45.060
educated to Value different things

01:14:45.060 --> 01:14:47.340
basically were educated into a different

01:14:47.340 --> 01:14:50.040
kind of subjectivity

01:14:50.040 --> 01:14:52.560
they wouldn't be going around to say I

01:14:52.560 --> 01:14:54.420
wish you know they you wouldn't be

01:14:54.420 --> 01:14:57.060
tempted by social media you just you

01:14:57.060 --> 01:14:58.020
just

01:14:58.020 --> 01:15:01.380
wouldn't go there it's it you'd be

01:15:01.380 --> 01:15:03.420
completely satisfied

01:15:03.420 --> 01:15:07.560
by the way that subjective experience

01:15:07.560 --> 01:15:10.380
um finds satisfaction from arousal State

01:15:10.380 --> 01:15:12.120
the arousal States would have different

01:15:12.120 --> 01:15:14.520
value propositions right the arousal

01:15:14.520 --> 01:15:16.500
perceptual state would have a different

01:15:16.500 --> 01:15:18.840
value proposition even that sounds very

01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:23.280
capitalist and and it would seek actions

01:15:23.280 --> 01:15:26.880
that satisfied those and it would be in

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:30.719
that that Loop that arousal perception

01:15:30.719 --> 01:15:32.280
Loop

01:15:32.280 --> 01:15:36.480
outside of which it would not be aroused

01:15:36.480 --> 01:15:39.120
you know you might be you might see a

01:15:39.120 --> 01:15:40.860
society that worked like that and you'd

01:15:40.860 --> 01:15:43.080
be like that's like looking watching

01:15:43.080 --> 01:15:45.179
people eat

01:15:45.179 --> 01:15:47.460
termite grubs you'd be like well that's

01:15:47.460 --> 01:15:50.940
kind of that's kind of weird

01:15:50.940 --> 01:15:55.080
you might want to try it but you're not

01:15:55.080 --> 01:15:57.540
subject you know that the idea of being

01:15:57.540 --> 01:15:59.460
a subject is your subject to certain

01:15:59.460 --> 01:16:01.500
what we're going to say action protocols

01:16:01.500 --> 01:16:03.780
and not others

01:16:03.780 --> 01:16:04.679
um

01:16:04.679 --> 01:16:06.540
yeah

01:16:06.540 --> 01:16:08.600
um

01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:19.080
that that kind of subjectivity too if 99

01:16:19.080 --> 01:16:22.020
of that was

01:16:22.020 --> 01:16:25.800
I think we said this like imagine never

01:16:25.800 --> 01:16:28.739
at I mean talk about imagine a counter

01:16:28.739 --> 01:16:30.300
factual imagine

01:16:30.300 --> 01:16:33.659
that the spiritual path was never about

01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:36.920
asking who you were

01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:38.699
that that was not an interesting

01:16:38.699 --> 01:16:41.580
question but asking what is it like to

01:16:41.580 --> 01:16:44.159
be someone else you would automatically

01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:47.880
be and liberated

01:16:47.880 --> 01:16:49.980
because that's that's the whole problem

01:16:49.980 --> 01:16:52.560
we're we're narcissistic we've

01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:54.300
self-referenced everything

01:16:54.300 --> 01:16:56.219
and if you never were asked that

01:16:56.219 --> 01:16:58.199
question

01:16:58.199 --> 01:17:03.199
then you would never have to be

01:17:03.420 --> 01:17:05.760
liberated from

01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:08.060
anything you'd be you'd be

01:17:08.060 --> 01:17:10.440
self-liberated from the from the get-go

01:17:10.440 --> 01:17:12.540
you wouldn't have transcended anything

01:17:12.540 --> 01:17:14.400
it would have been put there in the

01:17:14.400 --> 01:17:16.320
first place

01:17:16.320 --> 01:17:19.500
you'd be the Good Samaritan yeah you

01:17:19.500 --> 01:17:21.600
know and you couldn't you could imagine

01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:23.460
right this is a little leap of

01:17:23.460 --> 01:17:25.800
imagination that that's our animal

01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:29.219
nature a dog doesn't ever ask what is it

01:17:29.219 --> 01:17:31.140
like to be me but it certainly wants to

01:17:31.140 --> 01:17:32.640
know what is it like to be a human

01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:34.620
that's very important what is it like to

01:17:34.620 --> 01:17:36.360
be a rabbit that's very important what

01:17:36.360 --> 01:17:41.760
is it like to be an egg uh you know it's

01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:44.159
it's those those are the questions that

01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:46.080
it asks it doesn't have to be liberated

01:17:46.080 --> 01:17:47.100
from

01:17:47.100 --> 01:17:50.880
and understands the whole Enlightenment

01:17:50.880 --> 01:17:53.040
project on its head you know

01:17:53.040 --> 01:17:54.900
uh

01:17:54.900 --> 01:17:57.000
it's not a particularly interesting

01:17:57.000 --> 01:17:59.880
question because to question what is it

01:17:59.880 --> 01:18:02.179
like to be you set you on a path

01:18:02.179 --> 01:18:06.360
yourself sets you on a path of

01:18:06.360 --> 01:18:08.400
making an object out of yourself which

01:18:08.400 --> 01:18:10.560
is impossible

01:18:10.560 --> 01:18:12.480
when you ask what is it like to be

01:18:12.480 --> 01:18:15.739
somewhere else you're trying to

01:18:15.739 --> 01:18:19.140
inject into your experience something of

01:18:19.140 --> 01:18:21.920
their experience

01:18:24.300 --> 01:18:26.400
could you bring us to the word empathy

01:18:26.400 --> 01:18:29.100
which is like such an amazing word but

01:18:29.100 --> 01:18:32.280
then just so unattainable for me because

01:18:32.280 --> 01:18:34.140
I always feel like I'm projecting

01:18:34.140 --> 01:18:37.320
something that I don't really know

01:18:37.320 --> 01:18:39.840
what's going on for the other

01:18:39.840 --> 01:18:42.300
and I'm often a victim of a lot of

01:18:42.300 --> 01:18:44.280
people telling me what I should be doing

01:18:44.280 --> 01:18:46.380
because they seem to know who I should

01:18:46.380 --> 01:18:47.940
be for example

01:18:47.940 --> 01:18:50.760
which for me sometimes misses well most

01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:52.980
of the time this is the mark completely

01:18:52.980 --> 01:18:55.679
so how do you actually engage with that

01:18:55.679 --> 01:18:58.380
phenomena where nobody knows who anybody

01:18:58.380 --> 01:19:01.140
is and how can we start being empathetic

01:19:01.140 --> 01:19:05.460
to somebody else without having her

01:19:05.460 --> 01:19:09.239
I did it if you will and for God's sake

01:19:09.239 --> 01:19:11.040
you know if I

01:19:11.040 --> 01:19:13.320
I find that this part of my life like

01:19:13.320 --> 01:19:15.840
I'm getting older like it's amazing like

01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:18.000
it's almost like overnight I got to 63

01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:20.940
like how the did that happen

01:19:20.940 --> 01:19:23.520
but I'd like to be able to have like get

01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:26.580
closer to that before I die

01:19:26.580 --> 01:19:30.360
yeah I mean I think you you you are with

01:19:30.360 --> 01:19:32.280
your children

01:19:32.280 --> 01:19:35.400
you're empathetic when you say I don't

01:19:35.400 --> 01:19:37.620
know who they are and then you have to

01:19:37.620 --> 01:19:41.580
try right that's the muscle when you see

01:19:41.580 --> 01:19:44.179
them and

01:19:44.179 --> 01:19:46.980
the first step toward empathy is

01:19:46.980 --> 01:19:48.719
understanding that they're a question

01:19:48.719 --> 01:19:50.159
for you

01:19:50.159 --> 01:19:53.940
right because because otherwise you are

01:19:53.940 --> 01:19:56.100
projecting or guessing or creating a

01:19:56.100 --> 01:19:58.620
theory and in that space of the question

01:19:58.620 --> 01:20:02.480
becomes oh

01:20:02.640 --> 01:20:05.960
there's my son

01:20:06.060 --> 01:20:08.659
then once you try to fill that

01:20:08.659 --> 01:20:11.280
understanding then you'll feel like

01:20:11.280 --> 01:20:13.440
you're projecting again

01:20:13.440 --> 01:20:17.179
but for that little moment

01:20:18.179 --> 01:20:21.540
yeah they they live in you this little

01:20:21.540 --> 01:20:24.960
hole maybe right there in your gut

01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:26.360
and and

01:20:26.360 --> 01:20:29.100
that's empathy

01:20:29.100 --> 01:20:32.100
um and again so I think what happens

01:20:32.100 --> 01:20:35.100
with you is as soon as that turns on

01:20:35.100 --> 01:20:38.460
then there's higher level uh

01:20:38.460 --> 01:20:40.800
representations Cascade

01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:42.780
and then you'll notice they don't really

01:20:42.780 --> 01:20:44.040
match

01:20:44.040 --> 01:20:46.679
the person you're looking at and that's

01:20:46.679 --> 01:20:49.980
what you're you're sharing with us but I

01:20:49.980 --> 01:20:53.520
would say that there is at the core this

01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:56.820
empathy because I've heard you say

01:20:56.820 --> 01:20:59.400
things like that like my God who is you

01:20:59.400 --> 01:21:01.739
know who is this person who is this

01:21:01.739 --> 01:21:03.540
beautiful person my daughter and then

01:21:03.540 --> 01:21:05.820
and then

01:21:05.820 --> 01:21:08.940
that's a lot of times where empathy

01:21:08.940 --> 01:21:11.940
starts it seems paradoxical right but

01:21:11.940 --> 01:21:13.620
but

01:21:13.620 --> 01:21:16.199
for someone who's so aware of projection

01:21:16.199 --> 01:21:19.380
and having theories around people and I

01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:22.560
know you also have a lot of maps that

01:21:22.560 --> 01:21:24.420
you're putting people in

01:21:24.420 --> 01:21:28.080
um the the the the the interruption of

01:21:28.080 --> 01:21:28.980
that

01:21:28.980 --> 01:21:32.100
kind of meaning making that's a kind of

01:21:32.100 --> 01:21:34.800
sense making breaking that kind of sense

01:21:34.800 --> 01:21:37.159
making

01:21:37.560 --> 01:21:39.900
and it ends up in a question and from

01:21:39.900 --> 01:21:43.679
that question a seed of real empathy can

01:21:43.679 --> 01:21:46.199
happen so that's that's something that I

01:21:46.199 --> 01:21:48.179
think I've noticed or maybe I'm

01:21:48.179 --> 01:21:50.400
projecting but if it it feels right to

01:21:50.400 --> 01:21:52.860
you I mean I think I can't remember the

01:21:52.860 --> 01:21:54.060
stories but there's these little

01:21:54.060 --> 01:21:55.980
sometimes every once in a while you

01:21:55.980 --> 01:21:57.780
share a story where I see

01:21:57.780 --> 01:22:01.100
that that's happening

01:22:01.260 --> 01:22:04.199
and I think what's happening is not that

01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:06.239
you're not capable it's just that you

01:22:06.239 --> 01:22:08.580
have a vet it's like for you everything

01:22:08.580 --> 01:22:12.179
happens everything Rises very fast

01:22:12.179 --> 01:22:13.940
and so

01:22:13.940 --> 01:22:16.800
the level of abstractions come very fast

01:22:16.800 --> 01:22:20.880
but you should just be

01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:23.159
um a little more confident that at the

01:22:23.159 --> 01:22:26.820
base is a seed of of connection

01:22:26.820 --> 01:22:29.580
from which everything else happens this

01:22:29.580 --> 01:22:32.460
just happens very fast yeah in in your

01:22:32.460 --> 01:22:33.540
body mind

01:22:33.540 --> 01:22:35.280
but I noticed that you're talking about

01:22:35.280 --> 01:22:37.500
me but I was under the like for me I'm

01:22:37.500 --> 01:22:39.420
more interested in what the others feel

01:22:39.420 --> 01:22:42.420
about the word empathy and how they how

01:22:42.420 --> 01:22:45.020
does that how is it actually

01:22:45.020 --> 01:22:47.460
manifesting in your life where you're

01:22:47.460 --> 01:22:48.600
confident

01:22:48.600 --> 01:22:51.360
that you're in fact not projecting but

01:22:51.360 --> 01:22:53.520
being empathetic

01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:55.320
and you're in this empathetic

01:22:55.320 --> 01:22:57.659
projections that you call it's like such

01:22:57.659 --> 01:23:00.900
a fascinating expression yeah someone

01:23:00.900 --> 01:23:04.920
told me it should say empathic resonance

01:23:04.920 --> 01:23:07.560
because the word projection

01:23:07.560 --> 01:23:09.420
makes it sound like it's a projection

01:23:09.420 --> 01:23:11.760
and there's a reason why I played with

01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:15.300
that but it's a dysfunctional word

01:23:15.300 --> 01:23:17.699
um and path so it should be fantastic

01:23:17.699 --> 01:23:20.600
resonance

01:23:22.320 --> 01:23:24.239
I was thinking about the word tune the

01:23:24.239 --> 01:23:25.860
word that came for me was empathic

01:23:25.860 --> 01:23:28.679
correspondence like there's a meeting

01:23:28.679 --> 01:23:30.840
somewhere there

01:23:30.840 --> 01:23:32.880
there the projection and empathic

01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:35.940
projection is you want your senses to be

01:23:35.940 --> 01:23:38.699
taken over by what you're studying

01:23:38.699 --> 01:23:41.760
so so it's like your sense organs get

01:23:41.760 --> 01:23:44.360
projected into

01:23:44.360 --> 01:23:48.780
this this other not your ideas don't get

01:23:48.780 --> 01:23:53.280
projected so like mirror neurons are uh

01:23:53.280 --> 01:23:58.020
can be taken over by watching

01:23:58.020 --> 01:24:01.080
um yeah watch so so if I'm looking at it

01:24:01.080 --> 01:24:04.080
it happens okay a kid comes someone

01:24:04.080 --> 01:24:05.820
comes in with a baby and they're one of

01:24:05.820 --> 01:24:07.620
these babies with these little and their

01:24:07.620 --> 01:24:09.179
feet are going like that everybody's

01:24:09.179 --> 01:24:12.600
like your your sense organs are taken

01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:15.360
over by this thing that you're you're

01:24:15.360 --> 01:24:18.120
looking at right and it happens

01:24:18.120 --> 01:24:20.580
automatically right so that's what I

01:24:20.580 --> 01:24:23.100
mean it's like it's like your your sense

01:24:23.100 --> 01:24:26.100
organs and your state is is projected

01:24:26.100 --> 01:24:27.540
into this

01:24:27.540 --> 01:24:30.659
thing you're wondering about

01:24:30.659 --> 01:24:33.840
um and so when we did that that question

01:24:33.840 --> 01:24:35.520
what is it like to be you and someone

01:24:35.520 --> 01:24:40.020
says cotton then I go I imagine

01:24:40.020 --> 01:24:42.600
like I had this visceral feeling of like

01:24:42.600 --> 01:24:46.140
cotton in my mouth and that is a Feeling

01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:50.420
but I I it's like I got projected into

01:24:50.420 --> 01:24:53.640
this this what this person was saying

01:24:53.640 --> 01:24:57.120
and then the next move she would make

01:24:57.120 --> 01:24:59.880
that was like I was making that move and

01:24:59.880 --> 01:25:01.920
what would that you know every every

01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:04.500
time they answered

01:25:04.500 --> 01:25:07.320
they answered like I feel like a tree

01:25:07.320 --> 01:25:09.780
then I see a tree and my body gets like

01:25:09.780 --> 01:25:11.580
a tree what does it feel like to be a

01:25:11.580 --> 01:25:14.460
tree you know I've been taken over my

01:25:14.460 --> 01:25:16.739
sensory motor systems being taken over

01:25:16.739 --> 01:25:20.520
by the person or thing I'm studying and

01:25:20.520 --> 01:25:23.760
and and so it's not a projection in that

01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:27.500
sense it's like literally I'm I'm I'm

01:25:27.500 --> 01:25:30.120
experiencing it because I'm being

01:25:30.120 --> 01:25:34.640
puppeteered by the question

01:25:36.120 --> 01:25:38.219
um you can you can

01:25:38.219 --> 01:25:41.300
be around

01:25:41.940 --> 01:25:45.120
men with a lot of testosterone and you

01:25:45.120 --> 01:25:47.159
know what it's like to be them you just

01:25:47.159 --> 01:25:49.860
all of a sudden like and and if you get

01:25:49.860 --> 01:25:51.840
confused you think they're aggressing on

01:25:51.840 --> 01:25:52.920
you

01:25:52.920 --> 01:25:54.840
but you're becoming more aggressive

01:25:54.840 --> 01:25:57.300
that's what it's like to be them so you

01:25:57.300 --> 01:26:00.000
you get taken over by the thing you're

01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.540
studying

01:26:03.060 --> 01:26:06.480
you're not necessarily acting it out uh

01:26:06.480 --> 01:26:09.960
but but that's what I mean by empathic

01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:14.480
projection it's not it's literally

01:26:15.360 --> 01:26:17.420
um

01:26:18.260 --> 01:26:21.659
being allowing by the your way you're

01:26:21.659 --> 01:26:25.040
looking without

01:26:25.100 --> 01:26:28.500
you know directly perceiving

01:26:28.500 --> 01:26:33.060
like I I can sometimes watch I can when

01:26:33.060 --> 01:26:36.600
I watch the nuthatches going like this

01:26:36.600 --> 01:26:39.900
down the bark I can feel it in my legs I

01:26:39.900 --> 01:26:44.219
can feel in my toes what it feels like

01:26:44.219 --> 01:26:47.540
go down like that

01:26:48.179 --> 01:26:52.400
That's What I Call empathic projection

01:26:52.440 --> 01:26:55.739
you could do that with Trump and you

01:26:55.739 --> 01:26:58.380
could get a pretty strong hit on what

01:26:58.380 --> 01:27:01.440
it's like to be Donald Trump and it's

01:27:01.440 --> 01:27:03.860
sad

01:27:04.380 --> 01:27:08.460
we can re rehabilitate that word

01:27:08.460 --> 01:27:12.179
production yeah so that's why it works

01:27:12.179 --> 01:27:15.739
but it needs all that

01:27:16.739 --> 01:27:21.260
it needs all that disclaimer around it

01:27:22.100 --> 01:27:26.520
it reminds me of this old kind of

01:27:26.520 --> 01:27:28.500
I don't know if it's alchemical but this

01:27:28.500 --> 01:27:30.780
notion of shape-shifting right

01:27:30.780 --> 01:27:33.120
it's there's something in it it's not

01:27:33.120 --> 01:27:35.639
actually my form changing but my form

01:27:35.639 --> 01:27:38.219
takes on

01:27:38.219 --> 01:27:40.020
the characteristics of this other form

01:27:40.020 --> 01:27:42.840
this other body mind this other entity

01:27:42.840 --> 01:27:44.159
um

01:27:44.159 --> 01:27:45.659
yeah

01:27:45.659 --> 01:27:48.120
I know I've learned a lot from movement

01:27:48.120 --> 01:27:51.840
teachers yoga teachers Qigong people

01:27:51.840 --> 01:27:53.940
not by trying to copy their movements

01:27:53.940 --> 01:27:55.920
but by

01:27:55.920 --> 01:27:57.600
like tuning into what they're feeling

01:27:57.600 --> 01:28:00.060
like trying what does it feel like to

01:28:00.060 --> 01:28:02.940
have that belly and to be soft and to

01:28:02.940 --> 01:28:04.980
sink

01:28:04.980 --> 01:28:07.679
yeah yeah and Ray said that that he had

01:28:07.679 --> 01:28:09.840
a friend who the way he remembered the

01:28:09.840 --> 01:28:12.840
student's name is he start to mind the

01:28:12.840 --> 01:28:14.400
way he walked and then he could remember

01:28:14.400 --> 01:28:18.719
the name yeah you know and felden Krantz

01:28:18.719 --> 01:28:20.520
is all this like these people are body

01:28:20.520 --> 01:28:22.620
workers this is why that you think they

01:28:22.620 --> 01:28:24.300
read your minds because they know what

01:28:24.300 --> 01:28:26.159
it's like to be you

01:28:26.159 --> 01:28:29.580
so if they know what it's like to be you

01:28:29.580 --> 01:28:32.159
and they have the your human mind and

01:28:32.159 --> 01:28:35.040
their human mind they they are pretty

01:28:35.040 --> 01:28:37.500
good predictors of what you'll do next

01:28:37.500 --> 01:28:40.139
or what you'll say next or

01:28:40.139 --> 01:28:42.480
um they they can feel into what it must

01:28:42.480 --> 01:28:45.900
be like like they can they can tell that

01:28:45.900 --> 01:28:48.960
oh your wife must have just left you

01:28:48.960 --> 01:28:50.460
even though you haven't said anything

01:28:50.460 --> 01:28:54.179
and all this stuff because that's what

01:28:54.179 --> 01:28:56.400
they're doing it's it's it's it's it

01:28:56.400 --> 01:28:59.460
it's the language of bodies to know what

01:28:59.460 --> 01:29:03.300
it's like to be someone uh

01:29:03.300 --> 01:29:04.699
um

01:29:04.699 --> 01:29:07.199
and also could be like the other way

01:29:07.199 --> 01:29:10.020
around when you see when you see it's

01:29:10.020 --> 01:29:12.179
inspiring to see people who have a lot

01:29:12.179 --> 01:29:15.540
of Vitality and then you're like oh why

01:29:15.540 --> 01:29:17.820
don't I use my body like that and then

01:29:17.820 --> 01:29:20.540
you get more of you know

01:29:20.540 --> 01:29:25.520
aspirational around around it

01:29:26.880 --> 01:29:28.980
question

01:29:28.980 --> 01:29:32.120
so does this

01:29:33.000 --> 01:29:37.500
maybe Collective colloquial

01:29:37.739 --> 01:29:39.300
um

01:29:39.300 --> 01:29:41.760
meaning of projections still hold true

01:29:41.760 --> 01:29:44.100
as in like

01:29:44.100 --> 01:29:46.380
like

01:29:46.380 --> 01:29:47.940
you know seeing people in the world

01:29:47.940 --> 01:29:49.920
interacting and I'm like

01:29:49.920 --> 01:29:51.840
projecting my own anger onto them

01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:54.360
investing it in them like does that is

01:29:54.360 --> 01:29:57.540
that still a thing no that's not what we

01:29:57.540 --> 01:30:00.300
mean right but that's what most people

01:30:00.300 --> 01:30:03.719
think about projection but it can that

01:30:03.719 --> 01:30:06.300
happen or does that yeah yeah that

01:30:06.300 --> 01:30:08.880
happens almost happens all the time okay

01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:10.679
but

01:30:10.679 --> 01:30:11.460
um

01:30:11.460 --> 01:30:16.679
yeah because you can't you you're you're

01:30:16.679 --> 01:30:18.120
yeah

01:30:18.120 --> 01:30:20.280
you're just projecting your onto

01:30:20.280 --> 01:30:22.620
someone else versus

01:30:22.620 --> 01:30:24.920
understanding what it's like to be them

01:30:24.920 --> 01:30:29.100
you're you're yeah you're not seeing

01:30:29.100 --> 01:30:31.139
them at all

01:30:31.139 --> 01:30:34.440
um but if you do a lot of projection at

01:30:34.440 --> 01:30:37.199
that level the bad projection

01:30:37.199 --> 01:30:40.560
um the the best thing to start you don't

01:30:40.560 --> 01:30:43.380
want to start trying to be empathic uh

01:30:43.380 --> 01:30:45.480
you want to get to this to first first

01:30:45.480 --> 01:30:47.639
you have to get to I have no idea what

01:30:47.639 --> 01:30:49.260
this person is like because all I've

01:30:49.260 --> 01:30:51.600
been doing is projecting on them so

01:30:51.600 --> 01:30:54.500
that's Square One

01:30:54.659 --> 01:30:57.600
you you have to cut the cord by getting

01:30:57.600 --> 01:30:58.920
to

01:30:58.920 --> 01:31:01.020
um this is why I say it took me 30 years

01:31:01.020 --> 01:31:04.139
to know what a horse was because it took

01:31:04.139 --> 01:31:06.600
me 30 years not to project on it from

01:31:06.600 --> 01:31:08.460
one extreme to the next and all around

01:31:08.460 --> 01:31:09.440
the world

01:31:09.440 --> 01:31:12.719
and then you I had to you go through

01:31:12.719 --> 01:31:15.300
this period like I have no idea

01:31:15.300 --> 01:31:18.420
what a horse is hmm

01:31:18.420 --> 01:31:22.320
and then you have the possibility

01:31:22.320 --> 01:31:24.960
to move in the other direction but you

01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:27.120
can't seamlessly move from one to the

01:31:27.120 --> 01:31:29.159
other it's too confusing

01:31:29.159 --> 01:31:30.900
um

01:31:30.900 --> 01:31:33.780
um and uh when you're with people who

01:31:33.780 --> 01:31:36.900
you're entangled with like either uh

01:31:36.900 --> 01:31:40.560
overwhelmed positively or negatively uh

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:41.760
then

01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:44.280
um you have to say I have no idea who

01:31:44.280 --> 01:31:47.480
this person is I literally

01:31:47.480 --> 01:31:50.520
I don't people say things like oh I

01:31:50.520 --> 01:31:52.500
married my husband I went I didn't ever

01:31:52.500 --> 01:31:54.179
wanted to marry my father

01:31:54.179 --> 01:31:56.280
that's what I said you didn't marry your

01:31:56.280 --> 01:31:58.380
father you have no idea who your husband

01:31:58.380 --> 01:32:00.120
is because every time you look at them

01:32:00.120 --> 01:32:02.340
you think he's your father the truth is

01:32:02.340 --> 01:32:04.739
not that you married your father as you

01:32:04.739 --> 01:32:08.060
have no idea who he is

01:32:08.820 --> 01:32:11.060
outside of the structure my father

01:32:11.060 --> 01:32:15.000
that's that's just what you put out in

01:32:15.000 --> 01:32:17.460
front of you you so I tell people to get

01:32:17.460 --> 01:32:18.780
to the point first you have to get to

01:32:18.780 --> 01:32:21.000
the point we have no idea who the person

01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.300
is

01:32:24.420 --> 01:32:26.880
I think I'm even not there yet I think

01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:28.500
I'm still like

01:32:28.500 --> 01:32:30.540
I'm just operating on under the

01:32:30.540 --> 01:32:32.159
assumption that I'm projecting like I

01:32:32.159 --> 01:32:33.659
don't like how do you even recognize

01:32:33.659 --> 01:32:37.139
that you're projecting I guess would be

01:32:37.139 --> 01:32:39.420
my question

01:32:39.420 --> 01:32:42.420
well one was how long can you sustain I

01:32:42.420 --> 01:32:46.100
have no idea who this person is

01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:54.679
oh probably a nanosecond not very long

01:32:54.679 --> 01:32:58.219
so you're projecting

01:32:58.219 --> 01:33:01.639
oh my God

01:33:04.620 --> 01:33:07.699
so I can yeah

01:33:09.659 --> 01:33:12.420
there's so many instances yeah but what

01:33:12.420 --> 01:33:14.760
you can do is you can practice

01:33:14.760 --> 01:33:17.460
practice like and I mean I went through

01:33:17.460 --> 01:33:20.219
this and it's weird because like someone

01:33:20.219 --> 01:33:22.679
like your partner is yelling at you and

01:33:22.679 --> 01:33:24.179
you're practicing I have no idea who

01:33:24.179 --> 01:33:26.639
this person is and you have this weird

01:33:26.639 --> 01:33:29.400
face and like you're like a zombie

01:33:29.400 --> 01:33:32.280
because you don't know how to

01:33:32.280 --> 01:33:34.380
you have to do the experiment and when

01:33:34.380 --> 01:33:35.940
you do the experiment you're like a

01:33:35.940 --> 01:33:38.280
zombie you don't know what to say back

01:33:38.280 --> 01:33:40.800
you can't say anything back but what

01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:44.460
you're doing is you're noticing where

01:33:44.460 --> 01:33:49.380
does the arousal come from that wants

01:33:49.380 --> 01:33:52.380
you to know who this person is and and

01:33:52.380 --> 01:33:56.580
why are these these these narratives

01:33:56.580 --> 01:33:58.080
satisfying

01:33:58.080 --> 01:34:00.960
and then you will find out where they

01:34:00.960 --> 01:34:02.820
come from and then you have to you have

01:34:02.820 --> 01:34:05.699
to solve that and so that gets solved

01:34:05.699 --> 01:34:08.280
while you're continually disciplining

01:34:08.280 --> 01:34:12.120
yourself just to say I have no idea

01:34:12.120 --> 01:34:14.639
who this person is

01:34:14.639 --> 01:34:17.400
that's the stance that enables you to

01:34:17.400 --> 01:34:19.400
slow down and understand

01:34:19.400 --> 01:34:23.100
what the formula inside you is then you

01:34:23.100 --> 01:34:25.380
can fix that and then you walk in one

01:34:25.380 --> 01:34:27.960
day and you're like

01:34:27.960 --> 01:34:32.760
this person is oh I'm at square one yes

01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:34.940
yes

01:34:35.639 --> 01:34:37.739
it comes like that but the middle in the

01:34:37.739 --> 01:34:39.960
meantime it does it comes like

01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:41.940
weird

01:34:41.940 --> 01:34:44.580
it's just weird

01:34:44.580 --> 01:34:47.400
when you yeah yeah when you just

01:34:47.400 --> 01:34:50.280
described that whole sequence

01:34:50.280 --> 01:34:54.420
yeah there's it just it was woman at

01:34:54.420 --> 01:34:56.400
work like I just kind of went through

01:34:56.400 --> 01:34:57.719
that whole thing when you were talking

01:34:57.719 --> 01:35:00.659
it through like like

01:35:00.659 --> 01:35:04.020
and the arousal and it was like oh yeah

01:35:04.020 --> 01:35:06.239
the arousal comes from feeling like

01:35:06.239 --> 01:35:10.380
panicky in relationships yeah like oh my

01:35:10.380 --> 01:35:12.120
mom oh oh

01:35:12.120 --> 01:35:15.179
and like wanting to like

01:35:15.179 --> 01:35:17.400
clarify like

01:35:17.400 --> 01:35:20.340
like just clarify like oh you are mad at

01:35:20.340 --> 01:35:23.580
me or like you are or something is not

01:35:23.580 --> 01:35:26.639
working like there's Clarity there at

01:35:26.639 --> 01:35:28.500
least you know yeah yeah

01:35:28.500 --> 01:35:31.139
and then yeah okay and the other thing

01:35:31.139 --> 01:35:33.840
we think is yeah like if it's a work

01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:35.820
relationship we think that if we don't

01:35:35.820 --> 01:35:38.159
understand who the other person is then

01:35:38.159 --> 01:35:41.460
then we then we can't function

01:35:41.460 --> 01:35:43.860
yeah and

01:35:43.860 --> 01:35:45.960
um there's some truth in this but when

01:35:45.960 --> 01:35:48.420
your projection see

01:35:48.420 --> 01:35:52.139
so it is true especially like if it's a

01:35:52.139 --> 01:35:55.219
workplace it's structurally set up

01:35:55.219 --> 01:35:58.800
to be to leverage conflict okay there's

01:35:58.800 --> 01:36:01.739
so let's just say that's fine so there's

01:36:01.739 --> 01:36:04.020
something in us that says well

01:36:04.020 --> 01:36:07.679
if I don't understand who they are

01:36:07.679 --> 01:36:09.719
um you know in a Master Slave

01:36:09.719 --> 01:36:13.260
relationship let's say then I'm at risk

01:36:13.260 --> 01:36:15.719
this is actually true in these

01:36:15.719 --> 01:36:18.000
capitalist systems it may be

01:36:18.000 --> 01:36:21.659
it may be insignificant like you could

01:36:21.659 --> 01:36:24.179
the boss could yell at you it may be

01:36:24.179 --> 01:36:26.100
significant but there is some truth to

01:36:26.100 --> 01:36:29.639
that because the Situation's set up so

01:36:29.639 --> 01:36:33.179
there's a risk but what you have to tell

01:36:33.179 --> 01:36:35.040
yourself is as long as your projection

01:36:35.040 --> 01:36:37.440
you're further from understanding what

01:36:37.440 --> 01:36:39.420
the person is it's better than that it's

01:36:39.420 --> 01:36:40.800
it's actually

01:36:40.800 --> 01:36:44.040
you're at last risk when you say you

01:36:44.040 --> 01:36:46.560
don't understand them at all then if

01:36:46.560 --> 01:36:48.780
you're deluding yourself about what they

01:36:48.780 --> 01:36:51.960
are right so so you can actually work

01:36:51.960 --> 01:36:54.480
with the the taste of risk in these

01:36:54.480 --> 01:36:56.280
situations

01:36:56.280 --> 01:37:00.420
um but understand that

01:37:00.420 --> 01:37:02.659
like when you're working with the Enemy

01:37:02.659 --> 01:37:05.760
if you think if your information is

01:37:05.760 --> 01:37:08.520
wrong you're in a worse situation than

01:37:08.520 --> 01:37:10.860
if you know you know nothing

01:37:10.860 --> 01:37:14.100
and so if at the end of the day it's

01:37:14.100 --> 01:37:16.380
because you're at risk

01:37:16.380 --> 01:37:20.219
in a Master Slave relationship even then

01:37:20.219 --> 01:37:23.100
you have to get to I know nothing about

01:37:23.100 --> 01:37:26.179
this person first

01:37:26.960 --> 01:37:31.260
does that make sense yeah

01:37:31.260 --> 01:37:34.580
would you say

01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:37.679
hmm now I'm going to tell you another

01:37:37.679 --> 01:37:39.179
Secret

01:37:39.179 --> 01:37:42.239
since 99 of the people at work know

01:37:42.239 --> 01:37:44.880
nothing in reality about the people we

01:37:44.880 --> 01:37:48.719
work with the one percent who get to I

01:37:48.719 --> 01:37:51.120
know nothing about them and have any

01:37:51.120 --> 01:37:56.179
insight into the others has more power

01:38:00.179 --> 01:38:02.340
so if you want to put it in those terms

01:38:02.340 --> 01:38:04.860
this is like you see it all the time at

01:38:04.860 --> 01:38:05.699
work

01:38:05.699 --> 01:38:09.080
like it's how

01:38:09.080 --> 01:38:11.880
Iran circles around the owners and the

01:38:11.880 --> 01:38:13.139
people at work because they're all

01:38:13.139 --> 01:38:14.760
fighting each other and projecting and

01:38:14.760 --> 01:38:16.440
stuff and at the end of the day I could

01:38:16.440 --> 01:38:19.699
see who they were

01:38:19.860 --> 01:38:21.840
didn't have anything to do with me it's

01:38:21.840 --> 01:38:23.580
understanding

01:38:23.580 --> 01:38:25.500
you know because I would just say you

01:38:25.500 --> 01:38:27.239
know I train horses and dogs I'm like

01:38:27.239 --> 01:38:28.560
you just have to know what kind of dog

01:38:28.560 --> 01:38:31.040
they are

01:38:31.199 --> 01:38:34.280
because they don't know

01:38:34.920 --> 01:38:37.080
so that's closer to the truth than they

01:38:37.080 --> 01:38:40.320
were and the truth is what is real and

01:38:40.320 --> 01:38:43.980
has more what is real has more reality

01:38:43.980 --> 01:38:48.920
to it so it's more what is

01:38:49.620 --> 01:38:51.060
so if you want to bring into

01:38:51.060 --> 01:38:53.940
organizational because I've done this is

01:38:53.940 --> 01:38:56.760
why you still have to get to I have no

01:38:56.760 --> 01:38:58.800
idea because

01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:01.320
only then can you start to know what's

01:39:01.320 --> 01:39:03.300
going on and if you know what's going on

01:39:03.300 --> 01:39:06.300
and 99 of the people don't you can trust

01:39:06.300 --> 01:39:10.080
that uh statistic then you will have

01:39:10.080 --> 01:39:12.780
more power more power to stay more power

01:39:12.780 --> 01:39:14.940
to leave more power to say to your boss

01:39:14.940 --> 01:39:17.699
I want 185 000 raise and I know you

01:39:17.699 --> 01:39:19.020
should give it to me

01:39:19.020 --> 01:39:22.400
you just have more power

01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:25.860
yeah

01:39:25.860 --> 01:39:28.739
it's not rocket science

01:39:28.739 --> 01:39:32.900
they're they're just simple truths

01:39:39.300 --> 01:39:41.639
if you're training a dangerous dog and

01:39:41.639 --> 01:39:43.560
you can read the dog you have more power

01:39:43.560 --> 01:39:46.080
the dog's reading you

01:39:46.080 --> 01:39:48.800
mm-hmm

01:39:52.500 --> 01:39:56.100
I don't I don't want to continue yeah

01:39:56.100 --> 01:39:57.780
that was a good question though but I

01:39:57.780 --> 01:40:00.600
think you can see the markers yeah

01:40:00.600 --> 01:40:03.320
like

01:40:04.260 --> 01:40:06.659
yeah like and the other thing was like

01:40:06.659 --> 01:40:08.280
so I'm experimenting with this whole

01:40:08.280 --> 01:40:11.280
affect thing and like just trying to

01:40:11.280 --> 01:40:13.320
bring it out and I'm noticing like lots

01:40:13.320 --> 01:40:15.060
of anger and stuff like that and just

01:40:15.060 --> 01:40:16.739
trying to be more

01:40:16.739 --> 01:40:18.900
upfront about it and

01:40:18.900 --> 01:40:22.820
do you think that those

01:40:23.040 --> 01:40:25.219
um

01:40:28.260 --> 01:40:31.560
do you think that those are

01:40:31.560 --> 01:40:36.120
operating on valid

01:40:37.580 --> 01:40:40.199
interpretations of what the other people

01:40:40.199 --> 01:40:43.679
actually are or do you think that the

01:40:43.679 --> 01:40:45.659
question that you just said I don't know

01:40:45.659 --> 01:40:48.719
who they are sort of cuts through any of

01:40:48.719 --> 01:40:51.000
my own projections that like the

01:40:51.000 --> 01:40:54.000
bottom-up or versus top down hierarchy

01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:55.260
or whatever

01:40:55.260 --> 01:41:00.659
yeah so we don't know okay like

01:41:00.659 --> 01:41:04.139
the anger might be justifiable

01:41:04.139 --> 01:41:07.760
you know like I remember

01:41:08.699 --> 01:41:10.739
we came to work

01:41:10.739 --> 01:41:12.840
the owner of the company was very

01:41:12.840 --> 01:41:15.420
talented very charismatic

01:41:15.420 --> 01:41:17.639
but he was an and so people get

01:41:17.639 --> 01:41:19.620
confused because you know you could see

01:41:19.620 --> 01:41:21.300
him being charismatic when he liked you

01:41:21.300 --> 01:41:22.820
and then he would be

01:41:22.820 --> 01:41:25.080
you know what did they say reading

01:41:25.080 --> 01:41:27.120
people a new that's what they

01:41:27.120 --> 01:41:28.560
say and you know

01:41:28.560 --> 01:41:31.260
and I would see like six eight months go

01:41:31.260 --> 01:41:33.300
by and then you know they would come

01:41:33.300 --> 01:41:36.000
either really angry if they were mad

01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:40.260
or crying if they were women

01:41:40.260 --> 01:41:42.840
because he did something their first

01:41:42.840 --> 01:41:45.900
real Encounter of him like really coming

01:41:45.900 --> 01:41:48.420
down on them hard and I would just say

01:41:48.420 --> 01:41:52.139
well don't you get it he's just an

01:41:52.139 --> 01:41:57.300
so so so in that sense being angry is

01:41:57.300 --> 01:42:00.239
Justified but once you just kind of know

01:42:00.239 --> 01:42:02.040
he's an it's not really worth it

01:42:02.040 --> 01:42:04.800
to be angry anymore so that could happen

01:42:04.800 --> 01:42:07.139
but but the anger doesn't it doesn't

01:42:07.139 --> 01:42:10.020
have Clarity in it so that could be the

01:42:10.020 --> 01:42:11.460
case

01:42:11.460 --> 01:42:14.940
um and but the other uh could the other

01:42:14.940 --> 01:42:16.679
thing that could be the case is that

01:42:16.679 --> 01:42:19.100
you're really the anger is something

01:42:19.100 --> 01:42:21.780
deeper and more personal and it gets

01:42:21.780 --> 01:42:23.940
played out in projections because

01:42:23.940 --> 01:42:27.060
there's something that continually is

01:42:27.060 --> 01:42:28.800
trying to work it out in the world and

01:42:28.800 --> 01:42:31.739
that's why the projections are that this

01:42:31.739 --> 01:42:33.840
person is an because you're

01:42:33.840 --> 01:42:36.320
setting you're setting

01:42:36.320 --> 01:42:38.820
you're setting up the situation for you

01:42:38.820 --> 01:42:41.460
to work on it externally but it's it's

01:42:41.460 --> 01:42:42.659
something

01:42:42.659 --> 01:42:46.199
it's something personal yeah so it could

01:42:46.199 --> 01:42:49.920
be it could be either one many times uh

01:42:49.920 --> 01:42:51.320
many times there's a little bit of both

01:42:51.320 --> 01:42:55.080
but there's usually one that's

01:42:55.080 --> 01:43:00.659
much more obvious uh than the other so

01:43:00.659 --> 01:43:02.400
um

01:43:02.400 --> 01:43:04.920
yeah

01:43:04.920 --> 01:43:07.500
um yeah so

01:43:07.500 --> 01:43:10.699
it's situational

01:43:18.780 --> 01:43:21.679
good questions

01:43:23.940 --> 01:43:25.920
yeah and like empathic projection

01:43:25.920 --> 01:43:28.260
doesn't mean this is why it's not

01:43:28.260 --> 01:43:31.380
resonant really because you can feel

01:43:31.380 --> 01:43:33.600
you can get to feel like what someone is

01:43:33.600 --> 01:43:34.980
and you're like oh my God he's an

01:43:34.980 --> 01:43:36.540
 you know what I'm saying it's

01:43:36.540 --> 01:43:41.639
not like it's but usually you understand

01:43:41.639 --> 01:43:44.699
something deeper about the humanness of

01:43:44.699 --> 01:43:47.159
being being like that or something you

01:43:47.159 --> 01:43:49.080
know so

01:43:49.080 --> 01:43:51.139
um

01:43:52.679 --> 01:43:55.139
or you might you might get a hit that

01:43:55.139 --> 01:43:57.360
they're very extremely morally

01:43:57.360 --> 01:44:03.420
conflicted in this case this guy he had

01:44:03.420 --> 01:44:06.420
he there was something

01:44:06.420 --> 01:44:10.320
he most people when they lie

01:44:10.320 --> 01:44:12.600
a switch goes off in their head and it

01:44:12.600 --> 01:44:15.480
starts costing them energy

01:44:15.480 --> 01:44:17.480
he would could go from

01:44:17.480 --> 01:44:20.639
one sentence to the next would be

01:44:20.639 --> 01:44:22.260
completely

01:44:22.260 --> 01:44:24.480
one sentence would completely contradict

01:44:24.480 --> 01:44:25.560
the next

01:44:25.560 --> 01:44:28.260
and the switch didn't go off

01:44:28.260 --> 01:44:31.080
like it didn't I couldn't get a feeling

01:44:31.080 --> 01:44:33.300
that it cost him anything to completely

01:44:33.300 --> 01:44:35.699
change his story when talking to someone

01:44:35.699 --> 01:44:38.219
if that story was going nowhere he just

01:44:38.219 --> 01:44:41.580
he just completely seamlessly go on to

01:44:41.580 --> 01:44:44.340
another reality it was a pathological

01:44:44.340 --> 01:44:47.280
liar but he didn't even know it because

01:44:47.280 --> 01:44:51.380
because it didn't cost him anything

01:44:53.040 --> 01:44:56.239
it was interesting

01:45:06.000 --> 01:45:09.600
so all of this is a beautifully

01:45:09.600 --> 01:45:12.600
imagination and synesthesia uniting the

01:45:12.600 --> 01:45:15.480
interconnection typically of the senses

01:45:15.480 --> 01:45:18.420
into imagination and all we talked about

01:45:18.420 --> 01:45:22.260
today is is real embodiment isn't it

01:45:22.260 --> 01:45:26.179
it's the power of being embodied

01:45:34.020 --> 01:45:36.500
yeah

01:45:36.540 --> 01:45:39.540
foreign

01:45:44.159 --> 01:45:46.800
I mean I think today's theme is it's the

01:45:46.800 --> 01:45:49.860
power of pragmatic imagination right an

01:45:49.860 --> 01:45:52.380
empathic projection is part of

01:45:52.380 --> 01:45:55.739
imagination and this and it has it can

01:45:55.739 --> 01:45:58.560
be pragmatic it can be sweet like we

01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:00.239
were talking about it they can be very

01:46:00.239 --> 01:46:02.699
pragmatic because it it can give you

01:46:02.699 --> 01:46:05.219
insights into

01:46:05.219 --> 01:46:07.560
what people really are like and then you

01:46:07.560 --> 01:46:08.880
have

01:46:08.880 --> 01:46:10.679
more

01:46:10.679 --> 01:46:12.119
more

01:46:12.119 --> 01:46:14.520
understand the causal properties of your

01:46:14.520 --> 01:46:18.199
relationship better than they do

01:46:24.540 --> 01:46:28.460
I'm sitting with an Impulse here

01:46:36.659 --> 01:46:41.840
and it has to do with my curiosity John

01:46:44.580 --> 01:46:47.100
when you first spoke today

01:46:47.100 --> 01:46:49.100
you were talking about

01:46:49.100 --> 01:46:52.940
avoiding virtual imagery

01:46:52.940 --> 01:46:55.080
and you

01:46:55.080 --> 01:46:59.540
said something that tickled me

01:46:59.760 --> 01:47:02.580
and I'm still sitting with that you said

01:47:02.580 --> 01:47:06.960
something about it wasn't relevant to

01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:08.100
you

01:47:08.100 --> 01:47:09.840
you're

01:47:09.840 --> 01:47:14.699
your chain of conversation LED you to a

01:47:14.699 --> 01:47:17.699
place where your voice dropped softly

01:47:17.699 --> 01:47:21.960
and you said it wasn't relevant

01:47:21.960 --> 01:47:26.100
and what happened for me was

01:47:26.100 --> 01:47:27.659
I wondered

01:47:27.659 --> 01:47:32.060
what's relevant to John

01:47:35.400 --> 01:47:39.300
and I'm bringing this up

01:47:39.300 --> 01:47:42.239
because I know already

01:47:42.239 --> 01:47:45.320
that um

01:47:45.540 --> 01:47:48.060
I'm a people person

01:47:48.060 --> 01:47:51.080
and I care

01:47:51.780 --> 01:47:54.840
and I live in that Curiosity of getting

01:47:54.840 --> 01:47:57.540
to know the other

01:47:57.540 --> 01:48:00.139
and when you

01:48:00.139 --> 01:48:03.480
articulated the potency of the word

01:48:03.480 --> 01:48:07.920
empathy and asked the question of what

01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:10.920
is it like for others to be empathetic

01:48:10.920 --> 01:48:13.619
here now

01:48:13.619 --> 01:48:16.940
I sensed

01:48:17.580 --> 01:48:20.219
that's what I was feeling in this

01:48:20.219 --> 01:48:22.139
virtual

01:48:22.139 --> 01:48:26.420
realm across the screen wondering what's

01:48:26.420 --> 01:48:30.320
relevant to Jean

01:48:38.280 --> 01:48:40.619
just wanted to share that with you John

01:48:40.619 --> 01:48:43.139
yeah I'm just going to say one thing is

01:48:43.139 --> 01:48:44.940
that

01:48:44.940 --> 01:48:48.060
I think for me there's it's um

01:48:48.060 --> 01:48:50.040
I don't know what that is but it's the

01:48:50.040 --> 01:48:53.159
realization that I have had

01:48:53.159 --> 01:48:56.159
relationships

01:48:56.460 --> 01:48:57.900
that

01:48:57.900 --> 01:48:59.960
missed the mark

01:48:59.960 --> 01:49:03.000
so much

01:49:03.000 --> 01:49:07.020
and I when I became increasingly more

01:49:07.020 --> 01:49:09.119
aware I

01:49:09.119 --> 01:49:13.699
couldn't help but understand that I

01:49:14.699 --> 01:49:18.060
when I was irrelevant I was in fact

01:49:18.060 --> 01:49:20.520
almost violent

01:49:20.520 --> 01:49:23.960
you know there was a form a form of

01:49:23.960 --> 01:49:29.360
imposing what I thought that person was

01:49:29.880 --> 01:49:33.139
as the reality

01:49:36.719 --> 01:49:40.500
and then I I saw the the cadavers and my

01:49:40.500 --> 01:49:41.520
weight

01:49:41.520 --> 01:49:44.300
basically

01:49:44.820 --> 01:49:47.400
you know it's um I think it blew me away

01:49:47.400 --> 01:49:48.900
how

01:49:48.900 --> 01:49:51.360
I can say things like opening to

01:49:51.360 --> 01:49:55.139
unknowing and I don't have a clue how to

01:49:55.139 --> 01:49:57.360
start

01:49:57.360 --> 01:49:59.940
which is a good start as you said Bonnie

01:49:59.940 --> 01:50:01.400
you know

01:50:01.400 --> 01:50:05.540
but it's kind of um

01:50:05.699 --> 01:50:11.540
tender it's a tender place it's um

01:50:12.060 --> 01:50:14.400
like I'm in a relationship now I've been

01:50:14.400 --> 01:50:16.199
in a relationship for three years and I

01:50:16.199 --> 01:50:18.000
think it's the first time in my life I'm

01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:22.159
in an actual relationship

01:50:22.199 --> 01:50:25.679
I'm Blown Away by it like I every day

01:50:25.679 --> 01:50:29.239
I'm fascinated by

01:50:29.460 --> 01:50:32.119
foreign

01:50:35.940 --> 01:50:39.619
and she finds it funny

01:50:40.080 --> 01:50:42.840
I think she's natural at not knowing she

01:50:42.840 --> 01:50:45.540
just doesn't know and she doesn't care

01:50:45.540 --> 01:50:47.820
to me it was like the perfect thing you

01:50:47.820 --> 01:50:49.920
know like everything I projected on her

01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:53.340
she just didn't even understand

01:50:53.340 --> 01:50:56.000
like what a great

01:50:56.000 --> 01:50:58.560
opportunity to

01:50:58.560 --> 01:51:01.080
finally after like what two years I

01:51:01.080 --> 01:51:03.239
realized my God like what the am I

01:51:03.239 --> 01:51:03.960
doing

01:51:03.960 --> 01:51:06.179
while I was doing what I was doing in

01:51:06.179 --> 01:51:09.139
the past you know

01:51:12.360 --> 01:51:14.520
so that's what I mean I mean I think

01:51:14.520 --> 01:51:16.260
that the word relevance is really

01:51:16.260 --> 01:51:18.960
relevant for me because it's like new

01:51:18.960 --> 01:51:21.500
every single time

01:51:21.500 --> 01:51:26.400
like there's no place to go but now and

01:51:26.400 --> 01:51:27.540
then

01:51:27.540 --> 01:51:29.940
I tried to fight with myself as little

01:51:29.940 --> 01:51:32.520
as possible to be present and it's a

01:51:32.520 --> 01:51:36.739
better I fight with myself and I don't

01:51:37.159 --> 01:51:39.300
space where

01:51:39.300 --> 01:51:42.840
I'm curious enough to keep

01:51:42.840 --> 01:51:45.980
being president to what I don't know

01:51:45.980 --> 01:51:48.960
without collating hope that's all

01:51:48.960 --> 01:51:51.239
helpful that's the best way I can

01:51:51.239 --> 01:51:53.480
explain

01:51:53.639 --> 01:51:56.639
oh it's beyond helpful Jean

01:51:56.639 --> 01:51:58.139
it's

01:51:58.139 --> 01:51:59.520
um

01:51:59.520 --> 01:52:02.520
in the world of precious that you showed

01:52:02.520 --> 01:52:05.760
us that tender part of yourself and I

01:52:05.760 --> 01:52:07.739
feel you

01:52:07.739 --> 01:52:11.460
now and that's what I wanted to

01:52:11.460 --> 01:52:14.100
sense when that question came up for me

01:52:14.100 --> 01:52:16.760
so thank you

01:54:23.040 --> 01:54:25.800
Aaron I want to know what it's like to

01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:28.639
be an Archer

01:54:36.560 --> 01:54:40.880
uh I I don't quite know yet

01:54:40.920 --> 01:54:44.900
just familiarizing myself with

01:54:45.480 --> 01:54:47.280
with what it's like to have this be an

01:54:47.280 --> 01:54:50.000
extension of myself

01:54:52.679 --> 01:54:54.300
I also want to know what it's like to be

01:54:54.300 --> 01:54:56.840
an Archer

01:55:15.659 --> 01:55:18.840
you know I just that was lovely and

01:55:18.840 --> 01:55:22.560
thank you David and Jean I just noticing

01:55:22.560 --> 01:55:24.179
that

01:55:24.179 --> 01:55:27.420
um in a sense it it

01:55:27.420 --> 01:55:31.199
was an explanation of a process of sense

01:55:31.199 --> 01:55:32.520
breaking

01:55:32.520 --> 01:55:34.500
you know like trying to make sense of

01:55:34.500 --> 01:55:36.719
the other trying to make sense and now

01:55:36.719 --> 01:55:39.480
since break into I don't know I'm just

01:55:39.480 --> 01:55:41.699
curious

01:55:41.699 --> 01:55:45.000
um and I think that was part of I mean

01:55:45.000 --> 01:55:48.060
I'm just looping back to kind of tie tie

01:55:48.060 --> 01:55:50.340
it back to what we were working with but

01:55:50.340 --> 01:55:52.860
I think it is a good example of moving

01:55:52.860 --> 01:55:58.020
into this sense breaking uh modality

01:55:58.020 --> 01:56:00.139
um

01:56:02.639 --> 01:56:05.940
yeah not trying to make sense of who the

01:56:05.940 --> 01:56:07.739
other is or the relationship but

01:56:07.739 --> 01:56:10.619
breaking that into the sense breaking

01:56:10.619 --> 01:56:14.100
and then and it's followed by experiment

01:56:14.100 --> 01:56:16.739
and then playful you know play in this

01:56:16.739 --> 01:56:18.900
Arena and and I think this notion of

01:56:18.900 --> 01:56:20.580
curiosity

01:56:20.580 --> 01:56:23.639
has this invitation for that

01:56:23.639 --> 01:56:25.639
um

01:56:48.840 --> 01:56:51.540
okay another great session I'll get this

01:56:51.540 --> 01:56:54.480
recording in the previous one up

01:56:54.480 --> 01:56:56.460
a great weekend we do have the

01:56:56.460 --> 01:56:58.639
conviviality lounge tomorrow

01:56:58.639 --> 01:57:03.960
uh we'll see what happens who shows up

01:57:03.960 --> 01:57:05.699
um and

01:57:05.699 --> 01:57:09.679
um yeah have a lovely day

01:57:10.679 --> 01:57:13.280
bye everyone

## Cohort 5

00:00:09.059 --> 00:00:12.059
foreign

00:00:15.920 --> 00:00:18.960
good day good morning good evening

00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:21.560
good afternoon

00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:23.370
um

00:00:23.370 --> 00:00:28.769
[Music]

00:00:29.279 --> 00:00:31.859
so this is the

00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:32.640
um

00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:34.860
fifth I think

00:00:34.860 --> 00:00:37.620
um session on imagination and

00:00:37.620 --> 00:00:40.620
synesthesia and

00:00:40.620 --> 00:00:42.739
um

00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:45.920
whoops

00:00:49.620 --> 00:00:52.379
and I'm I'm just kind of

00:00:52.379 --> 00:00:54.000
wondering

00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:54.899
um

00:00:54.899 --> 00:00:57.600
what we'd like to do today we could we

00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:02.219
could go back and pair up and do the uh

00:01:02.219 --> 00:01:04.799
what is it like to be you exercise that

00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:07.920
some of you did but not all of you

00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:10.140
um or we could have I think we'll start

00:01:10.140 --> 00:01:12.119
with some open questions we had a lot of

00:01:12.119 --> 00:01:14.580
conversation last time

00:01:14.580 --> 00:01:15.740
um

00:01:15.740 --> 00:01:18.479
one of the questions that came up last

00:01:18.479 --> 00:01:21.000
time that's not in the course content

00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.479
but is a natural question that emerges

00:01:24.479 --> 00:01:27.060
is what is you know the difference

00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:30.540
between imagination and and

00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:33.860
um and uh the imaginal

00:01:33.860 --> 00:01:37.200
excuse me of a frog in your throat I

00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:38.579
imagine see

00:01:38.579 --> 00:01:41.159
there's a frog in my throat

00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:43.200
um so

00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:47.159
um also one of the things we want to

00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.979
remember as we move into the next module

00:01:49.979 --> 00:01:53.820
is how this how imagination fits uh we

00:01:53.820 --> 00:01:55.979
come from memory

00:01:55.979 --> 00:01:59.640
um and even in the memory exercises we

00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:02.579
could understand that some aspects of

00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:06.060
what was happening in our mind was a a

00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:08.280
memory in some was

00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.280
we kind of imagined it or or we mashed

00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.860
things up and we noticed this close

00:02:13.860 --> 00:02:17.040
connection and in this module

00:02:17.040 --> 00:02:20.520
were looking at synesthesia that the

00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:23.160
fact that we can imagine there's a frog

00:02:23.160 --> 00:02:26.760
in my throat is the fact that

00:02:26.760 --> 00:02:28.200
um

00:02:28.200 --> 00:02:31.920
this this this it doesn't sound like a

00:02:31.920 --> 00:02:34.680
frog right not really it's not like I I

00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.360
croaked like a frog but there's

00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.900
something in the way I experience the

00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:44.280
throatiness and the phlegm and like even

00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:46.980
the phlegm is like slimy like a frog and

00:02:46.980 --> 00:02:49.560
the sound of a frog and what it must be

00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:51.660
like to be a frog

00:02:51.660 --> 00:02:52.319
um

00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.720
and then when you say there's a frog in

00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:58.140
my throat it actually makes that Gunk

00:02:58.140 --> 00:03:00.959
that's in my throat feel like a frog and

00:03:00.959 --> 00:03:03.300
and the fact that we can do this is not

00:03:03.300 --> 00:03:06.420
because it doesn't it's it doesn't arise

00:03:06.420 --> 00:03:10.019
initially from the mind it originates in

00:03:10.019 --> 00:03:13.319
the way we use our perceptual field

00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:17.099
um creatively we enrich in the

00:03:17.099 --> 00:03:21.659
experience by attending to

00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:25.019
um it in synesthetic ways and so this

00:03:25.019 --> 00:03:26.879
comes from the fact that

00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.700
if I'm

00:03:29.700 --> 00:03:32.580
um list if I if I'm listening for

00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:34.440
something in the words that I don't see

00:03:34.440 --> 00:03:37.500
I'm using my eyes but I'm also using my

00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:42.180
ears and I might be also

00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:44.819
tuning into the background like what

00:03:44.819 --> 00:03:47.580
must it be that something's moving so I

00:03:47.580 --> 00:03:50.040
use all these perceptual

00:03:50.040 --> 00:03:53.220
tools all simultaneously they're they're

00:03:53.220 --> 00:03:56.640
not uh it's not opponent processing

00:03:56.640 --> 00:03:59.220
they're working together

00:03:59.220 --> 00:04:02.400
um to get a beat on things so the fact

00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.140
that they do work together and they

00:04:04.140 --> 00:04:08.159
cross over the fact that I mean it's

00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.220
actually true you use your ears a lot to

00:04:11.220 --> 00:04:14.280
see things we talked about use your

00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:16.320
mouth when you're trying to thread a

00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:17.459
needle

00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:20.699
there's all these once you start

00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:24.660
noticing you notice how important

00:04:24.660 --> 00:04:27.360
um that perception the perceptual organs

00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.240
are not isolatable uh they they need

00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.759
each other and so

00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.199
um there's a hypothesis by Harry hunt

00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:39.180
that what makes people different than

00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:43.139
the other higher animals is that

00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:44.520
um

00:04:44.520 --> 00:04:49.020
we can we can that our perceptual organs

00:04:49.020 --> 00:04:51.840
are are uh crossed like one of the

00:04:51.840 --> 00:04:54.000
reasons why your your optic nerve is

00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:55.320
back here because it's close to the

00:04:55.320 --> 00:04:58.320
basal ganglia where all the uh movement

00:04:58.320 --> 00:05:02.040
is being organized and so movement and

00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.880
uh motion and vision

00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:08.520
these are not discrete the the neurons

00:05:08.520 --> 00:05:11.520
in those areas are not anatomically

00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:13.740
discrete they do talk to each other and

00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:16.919
Harry hunt said that humans have more

00:05:16.919 --> 00:05:19.320
crossed wires not that we have more

00:05:19.320 --> 00:05:22.680
wires in our brain but we have our wires

00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.139
are more crossed and if you think about

00:05:25.139 --> 00:05:27.840
it this can explain tool making

00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:32.699
you know that that this stone is sharp

00:05:32.699 --> 00:05:36.900
like that uh pricker and I can use it to

00:05:36.900 --> 00:05:41.100
cut something or this log is like this

00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:43.560
arm and um

00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:45.539
um there's a little bit of this you see

00:05:45.539 --> 00:05:48.000
in the natural world like

00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.580
curls will take up sticks because a long

00:05:50.580 --> 00:05:54.539
stick is like a longer beak you see some

00:05:54.539 --> 00:05:58.199
of this but the fact that uh you can see

00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.440
a rock rolling down the hill and and

00:06:01.440 --> 00:06:05.280
then this rolls like that and so then

00:06:05.280 --> 00:06:07.080
you can invent the wheel and stuff so

00:06:07.080 --> 00:06:09.900
this ability to say

00:06:09.900 --> 00:06:13.320
um this is like that

00:06:13.320 --> 00:06:15.780
um also in terms of

00:06:15.780 --> 00:06:19.080
um uh like Chinese or herbology you know

00:06:19.080 --> 00:06:21.419
you eat something you smell it this

00:06:21.419 --> 00:06:24.780
makes me feel like that it must work on

00:06:24.780 --> 00:06:27.660
that like that so so

00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:28.740
um

00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:31.080
in science we make a lot out of

00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:32.880
causality

00:06:32.880 --> 00:06:36.960
um you know if this then that but The

00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:40.800
Human Experience uh begins with this is

00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:43.139
like that

00:06:43.139 --> 00:06:44.280
um so

00:06:44.280 --> 00:06:46.020
um even today

00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:48.360
um we're very keen on noticing

00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.020
correlation which is not causation

00:06:51.020 --> 00:06:55.500
because we're predominantly wired uh for

00:06:55.500 --> 00:06:58.319
that and then we make you know we make

00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.880
up causal connections because

00:07:01.880 --> 00:07:04.740
synesthetically we correl we correlate

00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:06.060
things

00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:07.740
um so

00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:09.120
um

00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.000
when we look at pictures of all the

00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.180
galaxies it looks like the pictures of

00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:17.880
the brain neurons and then we say well

00:07:17.880 --> 00:07:22.560
this is like that and the ability uh to

00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.819
do that and then imagine in what ways

00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:29.340
is the universal

00:07:29.340 --> 00:07:33.000
um Galaxy's threaded much like your

00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:34.979
brain which is threaded much like the

00:07:34.979 --> 00:07:37.620
microtubules in your lungs

00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:41.580
um this this then as you can see is

00:07:41.580 --> 00:07:45.120
leading us to the world of abstraction

00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:46.440
right

00:07:46.440 --> 00:07:50.460
it's this is like that because it has

00:07:50.460 --> 00:07:54.419
this Network kind of look

00:07:54.419 --> 00:07:57.660
um and so then I get curious about the

00:07:57.660 --> 00:07:59.759
pattern that connects and then the

00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.520
pattern itself becomes something I can

00:08:02.520 --> 00:08:06.599
manipulate in in my mind in in valuable

00:08:06.599 --> 00:08:09.360
ways so this is how

00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:12.060
what we're trying to build up are these

00:08:12.060 --> 00:08:14.819
higher order uh capacities like pure

00:08:14.819 --> 00:08:18.740
abstractions from just lower order

00:08:18.740 --> 00:08:20.580
processes because we're trying to put

00:08:20.580 --> 00:08:22.500
the Mind back into the body and the body

00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:24.780
back into nature so this does that make

00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:27.020
sense

00:08:30.379 --> 00:08:34.200
so the imagination in synesthesia is all

00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:38.099
this this is like that

00:08:38.099 --> 00:08:38.880
um

00:08:38.880 --> 00:08:41.479
yeah

00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.160
I have a question yeah um my my internet

00:08:50.160 --> 00:08:52.980
might be bad tell me is it okay right

00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:54.839
now it's okay it's a little choppy but

00:08:54.839 --> 00:08:55.800
it's okay

00:08:55.800 --> 00:08:58.620
all right because I'm not in the same

00:08:58.620 --> 00:09:03.180
place and she's like Luigi and Studio or

00:09:03.180 --> 00:09:05.820
whatever so don't don't make a lot of

00:09:05.820 --> 00:09:08.160
emotions because that uses up video

00:09:08.160 --> 00:09:10.459
processing power

00:09:10.459 --> 00:09:12.959
thank you yeah you can freeze your

00:09:12.959 --> 00:09:16.260
screen by gestically

00:09:16.260 --> 00:09:19.200
great advice

00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.339
um I was just uh you know at the

00:09:22.339 --> 00:09:24.959
conversation you had yesterday at the

00:09:24.959 --> 00:09:28.560
store and I couldn't help but think

00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:29.640
about

00:09:29.640 --> 00:09:33.480
what does the social imaginary

00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.880
um behind this

00:09:35.880 --> 00:09:39.720
you know sort of cult Drive uh thing

00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.740
that you guys I mean the the

00:09:42.740 --> 00:09:44.360
iatrogenics

00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:49.080
Urology and and we in these wild new

00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:50.519
conditions

00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.540
um in the technological Paradigm that on

00:09:54.540 --> 00:09:55.440
one hand

00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.800
makes it possible for us to be here

00:09:57.800 --> 00:10:00.779
right now you know all over the place

00:10:00.779 --> 00:10:04.320
and from all over the place which is a

00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.500
fabulous thing as far as I'm concerned

00:10:07.500 --> 00:10:09.959
and how

00:10:09.959 --> 00:10:14.459
do you see the connection between the

00:10:14.459 --> 00:10:17.640
anesthetic imagination and the social

00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:20.820
imaginary and this technological

00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:22.459
paradigm

00:10:22.459 --> 00:10:27.360
that brings us into contact with

00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:31.680
phenomena that nobody in has had a

00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:36.000
lifetime therefore wisdom to impart on

00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:37.560
really

00:10:37.560 --> 00:10:40.220
yeah it's like a decade

00:10:40.220 --> 00:10:43.140
I was gonna actually bring in the

00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:45.420
concept of the social imaginary

00:10:45.420 --> 00:10:47.399
um it came in sorry I'm just getting

00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:50.880
some paper to write on my desk

00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:53.700
um uh came in yesterday but I'm also

00:10:53.700 --> 00:10:55.380
going to have this interview I don't

00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:56.820
know why I'm doing so many interviews

00:10:56.820 --> 00:10:58.140
right now but I'm gonna have an

00:10:58.140 --> 00:11:00.779
interview with Ivo which is a lot about

00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:04.079
the social imaginary and

00:11:04.079 --> 00:11:05.640
um

00:11:05.640 --> 00:11:07.260
so

00:11:07.260 --> 00:11:11.399
um the social imaginary is a funny it's

00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.640
an interesting word imaginary

00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:16.680
um because

00:11:16.680 --> 00:11:19.260
it's basically

00:11:19.260 --> 00:11:20.160
um

00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:22.380
most people

00:11:22.380 --> 00:11:24.899
don't imagine

00:11:24.899 --> 00:11:29.279
don't don't actually uh

00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:32.040
create the creative act of imagining

00:11:32.040 --> 00:11:34.860
your social imaginary what happens is

00:11:34.860 --> 00:11:37.019
you're born into a world

00:11:37.019 --> 00:11:39.680
um where everybody

00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:42.500
has an idea of what the world is like

00:11:42.500 --> 00:11:46.560
and you pick up not from so much from

00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:49.920
words that's that's a little bit but you

00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:54.140
pick up what the world must be like

00:11:54.140 --> 00:11:57.480
for it for this to be happening

00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:58.140
um

00:11:58.140 --> 00:11:59.820
um you see your parents go to work every

00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:01.740
day and come back and you can feel that

00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:03.839
they're stressed and so then the world

00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:06.300
must be like that or

00:12:06.300 --> 00:12:08.399
um and so

00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.160
what so so

00:12:11.160 --> 00:12:13.500
um this is what Heidegger called thrown

00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:16.200
in this you're thrown into a world that

00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:19.680
is maintaining a social imaginary

00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:21.600
um and

00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.260
um you don't really use your imagination

00:12:25.260 --> 00:12:28.980
the creative aspect of your imagination

00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:32.040
um to to

00:12:32.040 --> 00:12:34.380
um you don't feel that you you know

00:12:34.380 --> 00:12:36.300
you're not using your imagination so

00:12:36.300 --> 00:12:39.120
much you are I mean you're kind of

00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.100
deluded into thinking that that's the

00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:42.899
way it is so I I guess you can say it's

00:12:42.899 --> 00:12:44.880
your imagination

00:12:44.880 --> 00:12:47.820
um and what happens then

00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:48.959
um

00:12:48.959 --> 00:12:52.620
it because yes so so the social

00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:58.260
imaginary is uh is in Insidious this way

00:12:58.260 --> 00:13:00.360
in the sense that

00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:01.380
um

00:13:01.380 --> 00:13:04.860
it co-ops your imagination and it

00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:06.779
prevents you from imagining something

00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:10.019
different or imagining other worlds so

00:13:10.019 --> 00:13:13.680
it kind of bypasses the the creative

00:13:13.680 --> 00:13:16.560
aspect of the imagination but yeah it

00:13:16.560 --> 00:13:18.899
was still an imaginary

00:13:18.899 --> 00:13:21.720
um an imaginary thing so

00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.320
um this is why

00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:28.380
it's very important to

00:13:28.380 --> 00:13:31.440
um understand what direct perception is

00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.040
and and be able to see

00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:38.519
um so when you travel to other cultures

00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.579
um this is you notice that your direct

00:13:41.579 --> 00:13:43.740
perception you use your direct

00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:45.300
perception more because you don't know

00:13:45.300 --> 00:13:47.220
what's going on you like you see like

00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:49.920
what is going on here you know

00:13:49.920 --> 00:13:54.240
um you don't share the Baseline so

00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.240
um

00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.459
so that you have to

00:13:59.459 --> 00:14:02.160
um be kind of like more just

00:14:02.160 --> 00:14:04.320
perceptually aware and then start

00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.200
building hunches of what's going on

00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.980
um and it can be confusing because uh

00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:12.839
situations

00:14:12.839 --> 00:14:15.540
um like if you well we all know this but

00:14:15.540 --> 00:14:20.880
like if you go to a culture where

00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:25.260
um like uh Bali where people seem happy

00:14:25.260 --> 00:14:28.019
but they don't have much you you know

00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:30.300
you might be like at first like oh

00:14:30.300 --> 00:14:32.459
they're so poor and feel bad for the

00:14:32.459 --> 00:14:34.200
kids they don't have toys I mean this

00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.240
doesn't happen to us it hardly happens

00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:37.800
to anybody anymore but you know what I'm

00:14:37.800 --> 00:14:40.440
saying because you're you're clouded

00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:44.040
over by the the social imaginary that

00:14:44.040 --> 00:14:46.079
you come from and then you can notice

00:14:46.079 --> 00:14:48.720
wow they kind of seem happy you know and

00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.240
then you have to try to figure out you

00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.699
can start to reveal that

00:14:53.699 --> 00:14:55.980
um there's there's an there's something

00:14:55.980 --> 00:14:57.740
that's been

00:14:57.740 --> 00:15:00.240
conditioned into your mind that prevents

00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:01.980
you to think of Happiness a different

00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:04.500
way or human what are humans about

00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:06.180
um and so that's what the social

00:15:06.180 --> 00:15:09.240
imaginary is and the thing about the

00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:10.760
social imaginary

00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:15.600
so there's there's there's ones that are

00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:19.199
um a limited to different cultures right

00:15:19.199 --> 00:15:21.839
um but then there are some that take

00:15:21.839 --> 00:15:25.980
over just about all Global culture

00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:27.300
um

00:15:27.300 --> 00:15:30.800
and these are very hard to see because

00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:34.260
you you you you see them whether you

00:15:34.260 --> 00:15:36.540
travel or not you see them from you know

00:15:36.540 --> 00:15:39.540
and uh we talked about this in the

00:15:39.540 --> 00:15:41.279
earlier course a certain production of

00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.240
subjectivity the Cosmopolitan self

00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:50.399
um is pretty much a a global social

00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.720
imaginary uh in in right now in some

00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.240
places not so much like

00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:57.839
um

00:15:57.839 --> 00:15:59.579
yeah

00:15:59.579 --> 00:16:02.639
um not so much in if you think of the

00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.560
Pariah states that there's only three

00:16:04.560 --> 00:16:08.040
Pariah States left Iran Korea North

00:16:08.040 --> 00:16:10.500
Korea and and Russia

00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:12.000
and

00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:12.660
um

00:16:12.660 --> 00:16:14.940
a lot of their rhetoric

00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:20.760
is in critiquing the global Cosmopolitan

00:16:20.760 --> 00:16:23.639
self you know subjectivity which is

00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:25.100
liberal

00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:29.100
tolerant uh effeminate according to

00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.740
their their description

00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:35.639
um it's not you know it's it and so

00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:37.860
yeah that's about the only place you can

00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.519
go to to see strong critiques against uh

00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.779
that kind of subjectivity

00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.480
and just have one more question speaking

00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.240
of imagination I'm sure

00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.060
um you know the Scott Alexander essay on

00:16:54.060 --> 00:16:56.339
Malik

00:16:56.339 --> 00:16:58.320
um you know keeps kind of popping that

00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.500
popping up in some of the conversations

00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:04.620
especially around the whole

00:17:04.620 --> 00:17:05.220
um

00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:09.720
large language models Etc and because

00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:13.740
it's sort of an imaginary concept

00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:17.699
that in a way attempts to

00:17:17.699 --> 00:17:20.760
um indicate a dynamic this sort of race

00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:24.240
to the bottom that is incentivized

00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.959
and very difficult

00:17:27.959 --> 00:17:32.340
to not participate in if you are at all

00:17:32.340 --> 00:17:36.840
engaged in any sort of transactional

00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:39.660
practice

00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:43.200
so this is a big question uh

00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.740
and so malach is everything the aggregor

00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:48.600
malloc it's the same thing does

00:17:48.600 --> 00:17:50.880
everybody know what this is

00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:52.860
um now

00:17:52.860 --> 00:17:54.960
so

00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:58.820
um I I so

00:17:59.120 --> 00:18:02.820
these words point to

00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:05.400
um uh

00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.860
these words are themselves imaginary

00:18:07.860 --> 00:18:10.500
hype the word hyper objects is a

00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:14.580
creative abstraction it's you know and

00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:17.580
so what we want to understand is what

00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:20.720
they are are the whole world is like

00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.520
there was one Consciousness running the

00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:26.940
show it is it's as if there's an eager

00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:30.059
guard it's as if there is a molec okay

00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:33.240
and so every time it gets complicated

00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:35.460
because then they say you know there's

00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.620
sub-imaginations that make it but the

00:18:37.620 --> 00:18:39.200
word itself

00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.260
is an imaginary construct and the

00:18:43.260 --> 00:18:45.780
question is is it useful

00:18:45.780 --> 00:18:51.120
uh so this is a real question that I

00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:52.380
have

00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:54.360
um and

00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:55.320
um

00:18:55.320 --> 00:18:58.740
um I I don't think the term hyper object

00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.919
is useful because

00:19:01.919 --> 00:19:03.900
it says there are objects in the world

00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.240
that are so big and across so many time

00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.059
scales and so many entangled dynamics

00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:11.700
that you can't manipulate them

00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:13.280
cognitively

00:19:13.280 --> 00:19:17.160
or you don't have any agent agent agency

00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.980
with it so I think well I mean I get it

00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:22.380
when he created that term Morton created

00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:25.320
that term I thought it was a great

00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:28.559
term I mean it philosophically but I

00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.020
don't think it's a useful term

00:19:31.020 --> 00:19:34.860
in terms of like what I think matters to

00:19:34.860 --> 00:19:37.080
us right now so

00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:37.799
um

00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.559
um in the same thing with igrigor I

00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.120
think that

00:19:42.120 --> 00:19:44.880
um it's it's I don't think it's a useful

00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.380
term

00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:50.940
um and so uh you'll eyeball and I will

00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:53.160
be talking about it a little tomorrow

00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.679
but we're actually

00:19:55.679 --> 00:19:57.840
one of the whole reasons why we're

00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:00.720
working with and we'll get to it in the

00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.940
in the later half of the course and if

00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:04.220
you want to reread the course

00:20:04.220 --> 00:20:06.960
introductions about putting their mind

00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.840
back into the body is we are we want to

00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:12.240
imagine into this space a notion of

00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.039
action protocols

00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.940
so we would say the egragors is the

00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:21.000
result that there's only a limited

00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.539
number of action protocols in in society

00:20:24.539 --> 00:20:27.120
right now right one is

00:20:27.120 --> 00:20:30.000
um and and the biggest one is

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.760
to buy something right consuming

00:20:32.760 --> 00:20:35.820
production and consumption is almost the

00:20:35.820 --> 00:20:38.340
only action protocol that's happening

00:20:38.340 --> 00:20:39.960
all the time

00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:44.100
and so if everybody in you know in

00:20:44.100 --> 00:20:47.160
inside them now one of the things about

00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.260
the theories of action protocol which is

00:20:49.260 --> 00:20:51.600
an imaginative you know speculative

00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:53.400
philosophy

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.220
um that we hope is useful is it says

00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:59.880
okay if you live in a capitalist Society

00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.280
um when you're in a habitat in an

00:21:02.280 --> 00:21:03.360
environment

00:21:03.360 --> 00:21:06.419
well then that produces a hobby toss it

00:21:06.419 --> 00:21:08.580
produces the protocols in which you

00:21:08.580 --> 00:21:11.400
learn how to act in this environment and

00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:13.860
so one of the reasons why the egregor is

00:21:13.860 --> 00:21:15.059
so hard to

00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:17.220
is as if we have an end of war is

00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:20.940
because you have to you you you it's

00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.580
very hard to change your habit task if

00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:27.299
you don't also change the habitat

00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:30.120
um of of the environment because you

00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:33.120
can't get away with

00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:35.700
um reimagining the social yourself out

00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:38.520
of the social imaginary now some people

00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:40.320
can you know it's the work of

00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:42.120
speculative philosophers the work we're

00:21:42.120 --> 00:21:45.179
doing here but it doesn't catch on

00:21:45.179 --> 00:21:47.940
um because because of this we're action

00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:51.120
protocol Cree all or agents are have

00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:53.820
this action protocols so we're trying to

00:21:53.820 --> 00:21:56.820
change a lot of this language to

00:21:56.820 --> 00:22:00.000
other kinds of descriptors

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.620
um so that people feel that there's a

00:22:04.620 --> 00:22:06.480
leverage Point

00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.100
um and

00:22:08.100 --> 00:22:12.840
um so uh so that's so I never really get

00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:15.360
involved in in

00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:18.120
um you know I've had a comment like I

00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:20.400
think Layman always brings it up and I

00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.919
don't find it useful you know like you

00:22:22.919 --> 00:22:24.659
can't attack the aggregor the whole

00:22:24.659 --> 00:22:26.220
concept

00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:26.840
um

00:22:26.840 --> 00:22:30.840
completely is makes you impotent to you

00:22:30.840 --> 00:22:32.520
can't understand it you can't get out of

00:22:32.520 --> 00:22:34.860
it and this is also one of my critiques

00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:38.520
about a lot of the models we have we've

00:22:38.520 --> 00:22:41.640
imagined them in such a way that we

00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.820
de-animate uh parts of the system right

00:22:44.820 --> 00:22:49.020
so if we have these principles we don't

00:22:49.020 --> 00:22:51.059
want to deanimate the parts parts of the

00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:52.679
system we don't want to fragment the

00:22:52.679 --> 00:22:56.820
mind the body and nature we want to see

00:22:56.820 --> 00:23:00.299
agent we want to reclaim agency at the

00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:03.059
individual and social level then we have

00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:07.500
to imagine something different into

00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:11.580
um into the conversation and this is the

00:23:11.580 --> 00:23:15.960
the role of speculative philosophy

00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:18.000
um but the key thing here is to

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.100
understand that somebody comes up with

00:23:20.100 --> 00:23:23.039
the concept of agador or moloch we

00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.780
immediately understand

00:23:24.780 --> 00:23:29.880
it because this is like that

00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.480
um but it's an imaginary it's a it's a

00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:35.039
creative and that leap of the

00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:36.840
imagination and the question is whether

00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:39.960
it's it's helpful or not

00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:41.940
um and

00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:42.960
um

00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.880
yeah

00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:49.520
um so that's uh

00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.480
that's why I think it's important to one

00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.820
of the things that

00:23:56.820 --> 00:23:59.400
I feel is

00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.559
um lacking

00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.480
I tried to ask this question yesterday

00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:05.580
and everybody punted

00:24:05.580 --> 00:24:08.580
what's at stake here for you nobody

00:24:08.580 --> 00:24:10.740
wanted everybody was in the dialogue and

00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.980
I'm like well why why you know where's

00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:16.080
your you could tell people had skin in

00:24:16.080 --> 00:24:17.640
the game

00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:19.440
but

00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:23.840
um and nobody wanted to uh

00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.919
it was very clear I mean Jill said it

00:24:25.919 --> 00:24:27.360
right up front and people are like you

00:24:27.360 --> 00:24:28.320
know

00:24:28.320 --> 00:24:31.200
um and so for me it's like

00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.760
um you know For Better or For Worse like

00:24:32.760 --> 00:24:34.740
the monastic Academy

00:24:34.740 --> 00:24:37.679
what's it at stake for them life on

00:24:37.679 --> 00:24:40.679
Earth okay now I can understand a lot of

00:24:40.679 --> 00:24:42.960
the things they do

00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:47.100
um but I don't like with John traviki I

00:24:47.100 --> 00:24:49.260
don't know what's at stake for him like

00:24:49.260 --> 00:24:52.860
he he I and sometimes like when he's

00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:55.559
doing teaching philosophy I I think okay

00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:57.539
he's a good teacher and what's at stake

00:24:57.539 --> 00:24:59.880
is that he he's a good academic and a

00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.799
good teacher but then when he gets into

00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.400
like his psychotechnologies and the real

00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:07.799
I don't know what's that's what's the

00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.360
purpose like I don't know what his

00:25:09.360 --> 00:25:13.559
bottom line is so I don't know how to

00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.679
you know it's not getting to heaven like

00:25:16.679 --> 00:25:18.960
I can understand a priest saying Jesus

00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.179
all the time because for him what's at

00:25:21.179 --> 00:25:23.580
stake is Souls they either go to heaven

00:25:23.580 --> 00:25:26.220
or they go to hell okay I may not agree

00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:28.460
with them but I can understand

00:25:28.460 --> 00:25:32.520
where the energy comes from and and so

00:25:32.520 --> 00:25:36.240
for me uh that's a very important

00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.620
question for uh because

00:25:40.620 --> 00:25:42.419
at some point

00:25:42.419 --> 00:25:46.220
that when you create

00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:48.059
um Wilbur

00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:52.260
uh said where all his work came from is

00:25:52.260 --> 00:25:54.720
that he'd go to spiritual community and

00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.240
they'd say this is happening you go to a

00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.159
psychiatrist and say no no they're wrong

00:25:59.159 --> 00:26:00.600
this is happening and they need to read

00:26:00.600 --> 00:26:03.059
science and they'd say and and

00:26:03.059 --> 00:26:06.600
what's at stake for him is he want he he

00:26:06.600 --> 00:26:08.279
could tell these were good people and

00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:10.140
that everybody was right

00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:13.200
and he wanted to integrate it and so you

00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:13.940
know

00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:17.100
and then the rest is just doing his work

00:26:17.100 --> 00:26:18.480
you know

00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:19.679
um so

00:26:19.679 --> 00:26:21.600
I think that

00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:24.000
this is an interesting question in the

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.380
in the

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:27.960
in the community and it did come up

00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.299
right at the end yesterday you know the

00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:33.480
planet the planet is dying or something

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.240
um but it was kind of just in our

00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.400
checkout so

00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.779
so um

00:26:44.340 --> 00:26:47.279
that was all in there too uh I think

00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.980
that this is an interesting question in

00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:52.620
in terms of this course like

00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:56.100
uh if you ask yourself that question

00:26:56.100 --> 00:26:58.140
and it doesn't have to be a forever

00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.380
question we you know

00:27:01.380 --> 00:27:05.279
20 30 years ago uh and well for me

00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:07.740
there's been a through line but you

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:09.360
don't have to say oh I have to declare

00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:11.220
what it's at stake for me and that has

00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:14.340
to be true for the rest of my life

00:27:14.340 --> 00:27:16.020
um but if you ask yourself well like

00:27:16.020 --> 00:27:18.240
what's at stake for you

00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.360
um

00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:23.880
and the interesting question then is

00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:26.100
where does that question get answered

00:27:26.100 --> 00:27:29.240
not in the imagination

00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:30.720
um

00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:35.240
that that's a very interesting question

00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:37.919
I mean you can't answer it in the

00:27:37.919 --> 00:27:39.960
imagination like if you ask a child

00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:42.000
what's at stake for you they will

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.500
imagine something because they're not

00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:45.240
mature enough to

00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.779
in many cases they will create a fantasy

00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:51.320
oh I want to be a princess or whatever

00:27:51.320 --> 00:27:54.299
but as a mature adult

00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:56.419
um

00:27:58.320 --> 00:28:01.559
if you take that question seriously

00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:03.720
um you're appealing to what I would call

00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.760
the moral we're going to talk about the

00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:07.679
moral animal

00:28:07.679 --> 00:28:11.159
um because it is a moral or sacred

00:28:11.159 --> 00:28:12.960
question

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.020
um

00:28:17.760 --> 00:28:20.279
and then once you understand that you

00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:23.039
can use your imagination creatively to

00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:28.740
to create words and courses and art and

00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:31.559
gestures and behaviors and relationships

00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:34.799
that try to move in that direction

00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.620
and you have to be creative

00:28:37.620 --> 00:28:40.260
um I like Michael Levin's uh definition

00:28:40.260 --> 00:28:42.360
of intelligence he takes it straight

00:28:42.360 --> 00:28:45.500
from William James he says

00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:49.919
intelligence is being able to arrive at

00:28:49.919 --> 00:28:51.720
a goal

00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:54.960
through different means so that for

00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:56.340
example

00:28:56.340 --> 00:29:01.020
a machine that builds

00:29:02.159 --> 00:29:03.419
um

00:29:03.419 --> 00:29:05.820
um you know builds the chassis for this

00:29:05.820 --> 00:29:08.059
thing

00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:08.880
um

00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:11.400
it can arrive at that goal but it can

00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.659
only do it through one means that what's

00:29:15.659 --> 00:29:18.360
programmed to do it it can't like if one

00:29:18.360 --> 00:29:20.880
of these gets stuck well depends how

00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:22.200
many

00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:27.539
um but a living intelligence has to it

00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:30.120
has a goal and then it's entangled with

00:29:30.120 --> 00:29:32.940
all kinds of contingencies and so it

00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:36.860
constantly has to reorient and reroute

00:29:36.860 --> 00:29:39.779
itself to the goal in some of these

00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:42.480
contingencies are

00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.360
um like our narratives change

00:29:45.360 --> 00:29:48.000
and our memories change and our social

00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.340
imaginaries change in order to get to

00:29:50.340 --> 00:29:52.380
that goal and and that's his definition

00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:55.020
of intelligence

00:29:55.020 --> 00:29:56.940
um so

00:29:56.940 --> 00:30:00.000
um in this case he's very clever well he

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.279
took it from William James but he's very

00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:04.679
clever with it because

00:30:04.679 --> 00:30:05.640
um

00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.580
um it can apply to agents down to the

00:30:08.580 --> 00:30:11.460
quantum level right so photons can get

00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:13.980
from here to there uh through different

00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:16.440
means depending upon what obstacles are

00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:19.440
in their way and so for him that's the

00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.860
definition of intelligence versus

00:30:22.860 --> 00:30:26.760
um an engineered Heap

00:30:26.760 --> 00:30:30.779
and so then if you if you ask is an llm

00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:34.260
intelligent uh by definition

00:30:34.260 --> 00:30:37.440
um well depending upon

00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.380
yeah I think he would say AI can be

00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:42.240
intelligent under this definition I

00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.059
don't know enough about how

00:30:45.059 --> 00:30:49.279
the things work but yeah

00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:55.679
good question yeah

00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:58.399
Bonnie a lot of the um

00:30:58.399 --> 00:31:01.919
going back to the social imaginary and

00:31:01.919 --> 00:31:04.500
you know it started to read ivo's

00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:08.279
article that you linked that I saw it

00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.100
was like 46 pages I think I'm you know

00:31:11.100 --> 00:31:13.440
just kind of just go to the discussion

00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.620
yeah I could see that

00:31:16.620 --> 00:31:17.220
um

00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.539
it

00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:22.200
it also feels very connected to

00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:25.860
our theories of causality

00:31:25.860 --> 00:31:29.299
and how those

00:31:29.580 --> 00:31:32.820
get developed early on

00:31:32.820 --> 00:31:33.960
um

00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.779
and what we're responding to reacting to

00:31:36.779 --> 00:31:38.940
uh

00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:42.480
and how we see

00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:46.279
agency and causality

00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:50.039
and what we might need to imagine about

00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:51.899
all of that

00:31:51.899 --> 00:31:56.039
yeah so all again all

00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:57.779
um

00:31:57.779 --> 00:32:00.960
all these ideas we have

00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:03.960
um you know even Newtonian physics which

00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:06.360
everybody scientist knows is reductive

00:32:06.360 --> 00:32:08.940
is useful in certain cases like when

00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:10.919
you're playing billiard balls it's quite

00:32:10.919 --> 00:32:13.440
clear in that having some idea of

00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.039
you know Spin and force and angle

00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:21.480
angular momentum is is very important

00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.159
um

00:32:23.159 --> 00:32:25.380
now having said that one could learn how

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:28.799
to play Billiards through expertise uh

00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.659
and never understand the words I just

00:32:30.659 --> 00:32:34.320
said but they can help you accelerate

00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:37.320
faster because you can see that you're

00:32:37.320 --> 00:32:39.899
learning something but if I can codify

00:32:39.899 --> 00:32:42.000
what I'm learning now I can like step

00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.480
back and in my mind you know make the

00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.919
map but then to get Beyond good enough I

00:32:49.919 --> 00:32:52.679
have to go back to not relying on on

00:32:52.679 --> 00:32:54.960
those abstractions so

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.380
um so all these these uh uh you know

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.480
Science is based on philosophical ideas

00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.320
which are speculative in nature

00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:06.179
um and we talked about that I showed

00:33:06.179 --> 00:33:08.880
that slide last week that

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.240
in times of you know paradigmatic change

00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.340
you

00:33:14.340 --> 00:33:17.279
um you use your mind not to make sense

00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.360
but to break sense since breaking so we

00:33:21.360 --> 00:33:24.120
go into speculation

00:33:24.120 --> 00:33:26.880
um counterfactuals experiment and free

00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.220
play so

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:30.120
um

00:33:30.120 --> 00:33:32.399
um now this puts a positive and that

00:33:32.399 --> 00:33:35.519
comes from you know the the work of uh

00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.120
and Pendleton Brown and John Seeley

00:33:39.120 --> 00:33:42.299
um and it puts an interesting spin on

00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:45.419
the sense making crisis right and we

00:33:45.419 --> 00:33:47.100
could say we're in a sense breaking

00:33:47.100 --> 00:33:50.460
moment and so that's a positive thing

00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:52.519
um

00:33:57.600 --> 00:34:02.279
but yes we have to admit that quiet now

00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.919
this is why it's not true

00:34:04.919 --> 00:34:07.099
hey

00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:11.419
I was sleeping and then he wakes up

00:34:11.419 --> 00:34:15.500
Bruce's dream into the world

00:34:24.060 --> 00:34:25.500
and so

00:34:25.500 --> 00:34:27.500
um

00:34:29.879 --> 00:34:33.000
now why then is something that we can

00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.540
imagine like like like

00:34:35.540 --> 00:34:38.760
causal theories why are they useful this

00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.520
is always the question it's where

00:34:41.520 --> 00:34:44.280
post-modernism meets science because the

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.139
postmodernists will say well science has

00:34:46.139 --> 00:34:49.080
just made up it's imaginary and then

00:34:49.080 --> 00:34:51.540
they have to they don't understand but

00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:53.580
then the bomb you know the nuclear bomb

00:34:53.580 --> 00:34:55.740
is not imaginary

00:34:55.740 --> 00:34:59.339
um so they have to figure this out and

00:34:59.339 --> 00:35:04.140
one of the reasons why we can imagine a

00:35:04.140 --> 00:35:07.920
a theory that's useful robust

00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.359
um is that the imagination is basically

00:35:11.359 --> 00:35:14.160
tied into perception and perceptions

00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:17.700
tied into the world and uh we do things

00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:21.420
this is like that and

00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:25.079
um in many cases this is like that it's

00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.000
not useful because it can't predict

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:31.339
something and in many cases

00:35:32.540 --> 00:35:36.480
relationship so that it's predictive now

00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:40.859
we're going to define science as this is

00:35:40.859 --> 00:35:42.480
the definition

00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:48.960
science is an action protocol that says

00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:51.859
if you do this

00:35:51.859 --> 00:35:55.380
then you will get the result that that's

00:35:55.380 --> 00:35:57.740
predicted by the theory

00:35:57.740 --> 00:36:03.900
so is an atom real well an atom is

00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:06.900
observed through an action protocol if I

00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:08.280
do this

00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:11.880
then I will retrieve the result like I

00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:14.400
don't know how do you see atoms

00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.339
um that is predicted by the theory right

00:36:17.339 --> 00:36:21.180
so science involves acting in the world

00:36:21.180 --> 00:36:24.119
by using certain protocols

00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:28.980
um now one of the protocols so so

00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:29.640
um

00:36:29.640 --> 00:36:33.920
yeah so causality is

00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:37.260
the world is as if there are different

00:36:37.260 --> 00:36:39.900
causal relationships

00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:41.820
um and

00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:42.839
um

00:36:42.839 --> 00:36:46.260
um this tends to be very useful

00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:49.020
in in certain conditions until it's not

00:36:49.020 --> 00:36:50.700
right

00:36:50.700 --> 00:36:55.460
um and there are uh

00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:58.320
the kinds of questions we're asking

00:36:58.320 --> 00:36:59.359
today

00:36:59.359 --> 00:37:03.060
are not the contexts where simple linear

00:37:03.060 --> 00:37:06.420
causation is useful

00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:08.180
um and so

00:37:08.180 --> 00:37:11.640
one therefore can

00:37:11.640 --> 00:37:13.760
um

00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:16.800
try to understand causation in different

00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.240
way give up on it entirely or

00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:22.560
um

00:37:22.560 --> 00:37:25.859
yeah or just try to fit more data into

00:37:25.859 --> 00:37:29.339
linear causations somehow so

00:37:29.339 --> 00:37:30.119
um

00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:32.099
uh

00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:35.400
one of the interesting aspects in this

00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:39.839
course or in this group is

00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:43.079
um is this is you know we talked last

00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:46.140
time about intuition and the difference

00:37:46.140 --> 00:37:50.579
between intuition and Imagination so we

00:37:50.579 --> 00:37:54.000
use the word intuition when

00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.099
um to mean that we have predicted

00:37:56.099 --> 00:37:58.440
something I had an intuition that was

00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.359
going to happen or I had intuition he

00:38:00.359 --> 00:38:02.820
was that way I had an intuition that she

00:38:02.820 --> 00:38:05.520
was going to call so intuition is a word

00:38:05.520 --> 00:38:09.180
we use that does is associated with some

00:38:09.180 --> 00:38:11.520
kind of causal mechanism

00:38:11.520 --> 00:38:14.640
right I don't if I say I imagined they

00:38:14.640 --> 00:38:16.200
would call

00:38:16.200 --> 00:38:19.260
I mean some people use that phrase you

00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:21.960
know what I mean but but

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.720
um more what if I say yeah I imagine

00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:28.740
they would call uh it just doesn't it

00:38:28.740 --> 00:38:31.440
doesn't mean that you know I had some

00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.480
kind of intuition that that was going to

00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:36.480
happen so the word intuition

00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.700
is

00:38:38.700 --> 00:38:41.700
um the felt sense of something that has

00:38:41.700 --> 00:38:44.760
some kind of causal

00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.240
um meaning to it uh if someone's is

00:38:48.240 --> 00:38:50.160
keeps saying you know this that and this

00:38:50.160 --> 00:38:52.920
I Intuit this into it and none of those

00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:55.140
things come true and we don't say they

00:38:55.140 --> 00:38:59.040
have good intuition we say that kind of

00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:02.520
a good imagination right so

00:39:02.520 --> 00:39:03.720
um

00:39:03.720 --> 00:39:05.220
um

00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:08.940
so that's a distinction to make it's in

00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:12.000
the kind of in this category but it's a

00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:13.380
different

00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:16.920
it's a different uh property a different

00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:19.260
property of Being Human

00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.180
um and so

00:39:21.180 --> 00:39:23.820
um so then the question becomes so we

00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:27.240
put that aside the question is always

00:39:27.240 --> 00:39:30.300
um when you're in the imaginal

00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:31.079
um

00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.680
does it is that real is it there are

00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:39.000
there causal properties of the imaginal

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.040
itself

00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:43.859
um so what's the difference between

00:39:43.859 --> 00:39:47.040
imagination and the imaginal

00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:51.000
okay so if you had watched you know this

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.800
is we talked about this last time but I

00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.000
think it's important to uh go forward so

00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:01.440
in the imaginary and Imagination you can

00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:03.300
feel that you're using your mind

00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:06.180
creatively like if I'm trying to design

00:40:06.180 --> 00:40:08.460
a dress and I imagine I can imagine it

00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:09.720
you know I could be sketching It Out

00:40:09.720 --> 00:40:11.520
imagine it go like this and then I

00:40:11.520 --> 00:40:15.960
create this and Imagination is

00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:19.020
um something that adds Creative Flair to

00:40:19.020 --> 00:40:22.800
something and you pretty much feel that

00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.660
you're the author of what you're

00:40:24.660 --> 00:40:28.740
imagining you're creating uh it

00:40:28.740 --> 00:40:31.079
so I can imagine

00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:34.079
uh maybe I'm a fiction writer and I can

00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.480
imagine ah this is a really good story

00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:39.599
with a good hook on it right and I can

00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.180
feel that I'm imagining that but then a

00:40:42.180 --> 00:40:45.060
lot of authors will report say things

00:40:45.060 --> 00:40:47.119
like and then I was in the third chapter

00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:50.820
and ah my God I was so surprised because

00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:53.520
this character wanted was doing that and

00:40:53.520 --> 00:40:55.380
you think how can you be surprised

00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:58.140
aren't you writing the story but people

00:40:58.140 --> 00:41:01.560
will report that once they're in they

00:41:01.560 --> 00:41:05.040
get their imagination going it's as if

00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:08.339
uh the characters in the in the and the

00:41:08.339 --> 00:41:12.300
thing is showing them what it wants to

00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:15.599
be they lose the sense of authorship of

00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:19.380
the thing and that's the imaginal

00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:21.359
you get a sense that's why people call

00:41:21.359 --> 00:41:23.940
it the imaginal realm because you kind

00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:25.560
of left the reality where you're

00:41:25.560 --> 00:41:27.359
imagining things and then something

00:41:27.359 --> 00:41:31.140
takes over the things you started you

00:41:31.140 --> 00:41:33.420
gave breathe life into through your

00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:35.160
imagination

00:41:35.160 --> 00:41:38.640
start to that you have the experience as

00:41:38.640 --> 00:41:40.339
if

00:41:40.339 --> 00:41:43.320
you're just observing

00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:46.560
um the progress versus authoring it so

00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:49.800
you lose this sense of authoring the

00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:52.859
story or authoring the experience

00:41:52.859 --> 00:41:54.960
um and

00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:57.000
um and

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.599
um yes exactly so you you you you feel

00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:02.940
like you're an archaeologist

00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:05.940
um figuring out what is happening versus

00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:08.099
architecting

00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:11.700
um uh um the situation so that's what

00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:14.940
the imaginal means and you can hear it

00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:18.420
in people's way of describing phenomenon

00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:22.740
uh all the time and the question is is

00:42:22.740 --> 00:42:26.640
when you enter the imaginal does it have

00:42:26.640 --> 00:42:30.780
causal Properties or or does it reveal

00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:31.859
things

00:42:31.859 --> 00:42:35.880
this is always an interesting question

00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.880
Claudia

00:42:39.180 --> 00:42:41.579
yeah so link with that a little bit I'm

00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:43.500
sort of exploring just as you're

00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:45.240
speaking the

00:42:45.240 --> 00:42:46.859
um interrelationship between imaginal

00:42:46.859 --> 00:42:49.079
and intuition and I'm thinking of a

00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.000
Tracker who

00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:53.820
is following an animal so using

00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:57.240
intuition let's say but then moves into

00:42:57.240 --> 00:43:00.599
an imaginal space where they become the

00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.540
animal and then they're still following

00:43:03.540 --> 00:43:05.760
intuition but it's

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.700
it's embodied in a slightly different

00:43:08.700 --> 00:43:10.920
way and I guess you can I mean you know

00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:12.599
words as you say are

00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.240
too coarse grained but there's a there's

00:43:15.240 --> 00:43:17.339
a sort of I even notice in my own

00:43:17.339 --> 00:43:19.460
experience that I can move from

00:43:19.460 --> 00:43:21.599
imagining something

00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.900
noticing it's quite self-referential

00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:27.660
then having something yeah and then

00:43:27.660 --> 00:43:31.079
moving out of that self that sense of it

00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:33.599
being self-referential

00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:36.359
like putting myself in a story and then

00:43:36.359 --> 00:43:38.220
I don't know I think the tracking one is

00:43:38.220 --> 00:43:40.920
cleaner no this is this is okay yeah

00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:43.500
it's a great example so this is I love

00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:46.800
this because this is what the course is

00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:48.540
about you get you know we make some

00:43:48.540 --> 00:43:51.420
distinctions and then you see we can

00:43:51.420 --> 00:43:54.420
so what's going on there and I wish I

00:43:54.420 --> 00:43:57.240
had thought of this one myself so what's

00:43:57.240 --> 00:43:59.819
happening yes exactly we all could feel

00:43:59.819 --> 00:44:01.920
the difference between your intuition

00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.960
and the amount and then and you know to

00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:07.140
the imaginal so

00:44:07.140 --> 00:44:10.859
um I would say what's happening there is

00:44:10.859 --> 00:44:11.720
um

00:44:11.720 --> 00:44:15.180
is empathic projection because what the

00:44:15.180 --> 00:44:18.960
tracker is saying what is it like to be

00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:20.880
the elk

00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.520
and it's and it gets absorbed in the

00:44:23.520 --> 00:44:25.859
empathic projection and so in this case

00:44:25.859 --> 00:44:28.800
that that's like the imaginal realm

00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.380
because what is it like to be

00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:34.319
but we would say it's imaginal because

00:44:34.319 --> 00:44:38.280
now something's taken over them

00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:42.900
um and so I would say that

00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:43.980
um

00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:48.000
it exits intuition because intuition

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:50.640
again we

00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:55.020
feel that it's our capacity in general

00:44:55.020 --> 00:44:56.880
um and you know language sometimes it

00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.020
means different things especially

00:44:58.020 --> 00:45:00.599
cross-culturally but

00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.300
um yeah so I would say that's imaginal

00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:07.560
and it starts with what is it like

00:45:07.560 --> 00:45:09.900
uh so at first he's using his intuition

00:45:09.900 --> 00:45:12.599
he sees this he sees that deep pattern

00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.839
recognition and then once he's in the

00:45:15.839 --> 00:45:18.920
zone it's a question of what is it like

00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:21.240
to be the elk

00:45:21.240 --> 00:45:24.119
you can fit walk in this track you can

00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:28.040
feel them walking does that make sense

00:45:28.560 --> 00:45:31.560
yes it does I yes it does

00:45:31.560 --> 00:45:33.839
um How about if your

00:45:33.839 --> 00:45:34.579
your

00:45:34.579 --> 00:45:38.220
doing some empathic imagination into

00:45:38.220 --> 00:45:41.400
what's it like to be the eagle tracking

00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:44.099
tracking the elk I'm trying to get this

00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:45.839
notion of intuition because they're in

00:45:45.839 --> 00:45:47.700
tracking because there's a sort of sense

00:45:47.700 --> 00:45:52.260
that you're following a scent

00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:54.480
and yeah and I don't know when quite you

00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.339
enter the imaginal I guess as soon as

00:45:56.339 --> 00:45:58.859
you're you're being an eagle following

00:45:58.859 --> 00:46:00.599
something

00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.760
you know and you're you're embodying the

00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:04.440
eagle not the elk

00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:06.000
I mean we're in the imaginal realm

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.500
already aren't we

00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:09.839
um I can imagine though it could the

00:46:09.839 --> 00:46:12.119
whole process could start with being a

00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:14.480
Tracker and just following your own

00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.880
skills and experience and and then

00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:19.740
amplifying your senses as you get more

00:46:19.740 --> 00:46:21.420
into it

00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:24.420
so have you ever done a

00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:26.760
Asian Journey

00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:28.920
power animal

00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:32.220
Okay so

00:46:32.220 --> 00:46:35.880
um so uh you know first of all you

00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:38.760
usually go to get to to

00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:40.200
um do one of these practices because

00:46:40.200 --> 00:46:43.380
you're already somewhat kind of like

00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:46.200
imagine you know you don't neces you

00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:47.640
know you don't drop your kid off to

00:46:47.640 --> 00:46:49.339
school and then like oh let me go do it

00:46:49.339 --> 00:46:51.900
usually there's a condition you're

00:46:51.900 --> 00:46:54.119
already primed for

00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:56.099
um but there's a there's drumming and

00:46:56.099 --> 00:46:58.140
very powerful drumming

00:46:58.140 --> 00:47:00.720
um I've done it once with uh I'm not

00:47:00.720 --> 00:47:03.119
gonna remember her name I actually did

00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.160
it over the phone

00:47:05.160 --> 00:47:07.260
um and you laid down and there's

00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:09.960
drumming and of course the drumming gets

00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:12.119
you into kind of a Trans State and what

00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:17.400
you're doing is you're looking to have a

00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:20.700
um a dream experience really uh take it

00:47:20.700 --> 00:47:24.780
Taking Over By A Dream experience while

00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:27.599
you're awake and so

00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:28.980
um

00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:33.180
what what's interesting is that

00:47:33.180 --> 00:47:37.740
when you enter in the imaginal in the

00:47:37.740 --> 00:47:39.060
same way you're describing it because

00:47:39.060 --> 00:47:42.359
like one one point I was

00:47:42.359 --> 00:47:45.420
you know I this road was coming at me I

00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:47.460
was going down this road and I could see

00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:49.800
the picket fence and I could really I

00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:53.220
could feel the sound of the wind like I

00:47:53.220 --> 00:47:55.280
was going down this road and I kept

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:58.680
looking ahead to see I thought at the

00:47:58.680 --> 00:48:00.660
end of the road where is my power animal

00:48:00.660 --> 00:48:03.599
and then I realized I was the eagle like

00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:06.180
I was flying and that's what it would

00:48:06.180 --> 00:48:09.119
look like but for most of the beginning

00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.420
I kept them waiting I thought I get

00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:14.520
further down the road and I'll see a

00:48:14.520 --> 00:48:18.119
bunny or something there you know and uh

00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:21.240
she said this is quite often the case

00:48:21.240 --> 00:48:24.000
like one woman was a whale and she kept

00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:26.579
looking and looking for her power animal

00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:29.099
but then she realized she didn't take it

00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:32.579
over by what it felt like to be a whale

00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:35.700
and so so

00:48:35.700 --> 00:48:37.339
um so

00:48:37.339 --> 00:48:39.960
what are the

00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:43.400
um so so then the question is like

00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:46.319
uh what is the benefit

00:48:46.319 --> 00:48:48.300
of

00:48:48.300 --> 00:48:52.740
you know what is what is revealed uh

00:48:52.740 --> 00:48:54.960
during an imaginal trip like that like

00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.940
that I was the eagle I was actually a

00:48:56.940 --> 00:48:59.460
hawk because I knew exactly what Hawkeye

00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:02.520
was which is a hawk that was here uh

00:49:02.520 --> 00:49:04.980
that stared at me for many many days

00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:08.700
during this difficult time I had

00:49:08.700 --> 00:49:11.119
um so uh

00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:14.780
so to me

00:49:14.780 --> 00:49:17.520
something was crossing over from The

00:49:17.520 --> 00:49:20.160
Real World brought into this experience

00:49:20.160 --> 00:49:22.700
I had

00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:27.800
um yeah there's always a question so

00:49:28.740 --> 00:49:31.740
what does it mean

00:49:31.740 --> 00:49:33.859
um

00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:37.460
I don't know

00:49:37.780 --> 00:49:39.740
[Music]

00:49:39.740 --> 00:49:41.359
uh

00:49:41.359 --> 00:49:46.079
I think what it can do is you know it's

00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.380
certainly spending time in the imaginal

00:49:48.380 --> 00:49:50.720
uh uh

00:49:50.720 --> 00:49:54.060
breaks connections standard ways of

00:49:54.060 --> 00:49:55.859
thinking about things and then you come

00:49:55.859 --> 00:49:58.859
back and you might have intuitions

00:49:58.859 --> 00:50:02.760
um but it's also can be problematic

00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:04.560
because people can go into the imaginal

00:50:04.560 --> 00:50:06.660
and they come out with very strong

00:50:06.660 --> 00:50:08.640
abstract theories and interpretations

00:50:08.640 --> 00:50:10.440
and then they just get locked in into

00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:12.660
that you know so

00:50:12.660 --> 00:50:15.599
um uh

00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:20.119
um so it can it can be tricky

00:50:27.060 --> 00:50:29.280
somehow I don't think your power animal

00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.560
would be a bunny

00:50:31.560 --> 00:50:33.740
foreign

00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:41.540
hard to imagine

00:51:02.700 --> 00:51:04.619
you know if you listen to Charles

00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:06.720
eisenstein

00:51:06.720 --> 00:51:09.300
I feel like you know we're like adjacent

00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:11.160
to each other but

00:51:11.160 --> 00:51:15.000
he gives he would give a whole lot more

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:18.119
let's say Credence or power to the

00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.619
imaginal

00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:21.540
um and now I'm not always so sure we're

00:51:21.540 --> 00:51:24.900
as far apart as we are in terms of how

00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:26.880
we talk about things

00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.520
um and I think again

00:51:29.520 --> 00:51:33.119
um because we're working on different

00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:36.119
pieces of the puzzle you know

00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:37.559
um

00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:40.079
um I'm I'm pretty much work with

00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:42.780
imaginal people who I think need more

00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:45.780
science and and kind of concrete and he

00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:48.900
works a lot more with trying to convince

00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:51.839
people that the imaginal is real

00:51:51.839 --> 00:51:54.599
um and so so I think our emphasis is

00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:55.980
different

00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:59.220
um but certainly what he you know like

00:51:59.220 --> 00:52:01.020
someone asked him about

00:52:01.020 --> 00:52:03.119
aliens and he's like yeah you know

00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.800
they're real and uh even and and

00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:11.040
he can and even then I think what he

00:52:11.040 --> 00:52:15.540
would admit in private is

00:52:15.540 --> 00:52:19.140
um yeah it's a lot more imaginal

00:52:19.140 --> 00:52:21.119
um in nature

00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:21.960
um

00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:24.540
and

00:52:24.540 --> 00:52:26.099
um yeah

00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:29.040
so that would be actually an interesting

00:52:29.040 --> 00:52:33.059
conversation to have between him

00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:35.180
um

00:52:35.220 --> 00:52:37.500
Zoe

00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:39.300
hi

00:52:39.300 --> 00:52:40.319
um

00:52:40.319 --> 00:52:42.480
yeah there's something

00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:44.160
there's something maybe it was covered

00:52:44.160 --> 00:52:45.720
and I wasn't

00:52:45.720 --> 00:52:49.559
concentrating enough but um like in this

00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.380
situation where we have like these

00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:54.359
they're different states right so

00:52:54.359 --> 00:52:57.000
there's first the the state of I like

00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.280
the hunting example like there's a state

00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.559
of awareness and sensitivity to

00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:03.440
environment place

00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:05.160
sensation

00:53:05.160 --> 00:53:08.099
and all those perceptual things

00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:10.740
then there's like

00:53:10.740 --> 00:53:13.280
um another state of

00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:16.440
imagining that you're the animal you're

00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:17.940
hunting or

00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:20.900
shifting your perceptual

00:53:20.900 --> 00:53:24.780
perspective to another

00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:28.380
being that's not embodied in you

00:53:28.380 --> 00:53:31.200
and then I wonder like the question I

00:53:31.200 --> 00:53:33.599
have about that is then

00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:37.920
in terms of perceptual sensitivity

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:41.040
are we then opening ourselves up to

00:53:41.040 --> 00:53:43.800
receive other information in our

00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:46.380
perceptions and where is that

00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:48.780
in that

00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:51.359
in that relationship that's the thing

00:53:51.359 --> 00:53:53.760
that sort of intrigues me like

00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:55.859
you know we're opening ourselves up to

00:53:55.859 --> 00:53:59.579
to feel what it's like as the eagle and

00:53:59.579 --> 00:54:02.700
then we're experiencing a world like

00:54:02.700 --> 00:54:05.640
that that's working in

00:54:05.640 --> 00:54:07.500
yeah

00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:09.839
and and what

00:54:09.839 --> 00:54:13.140
does that change how we're perceiving

00:54:13.140 --> 00:54:16.400
and embodying

00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:21.059
the the imaginary space or like do you

00:54:21.059 --> 00:54:22.619
see what the question is it's kind of

00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:25.559
like where is that in there

00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:29.040
in terms of our senses so yeah it's in

00:54:29.040 --> 00:54:31.260
the imaginal it's the power of the

00:54:31.260 --> 00:54:33.480
imaginal this is and

00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.420
this is something that

00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:39.119
um you know we we start with the animal

00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.579
body and

00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:43.980
um uh

00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:46.859
I would imagine that this is not

00:54:46.859 --> 00:54:49.800
something animals do imagine themselves

00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:54.420
into other uh beings and

00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:57.359
um but

00:54:57.359 --> 00:54:59.540
um

00:55:00.240 --> 00:55:02.520
so this is like you've probably heard

00:55:02.520 --> 00:55:04.200
Apostle talk about

00:55:04.200 --> 00:55:06.540
um the zogen practice of imagining

00:55:06.540 --> 00:55:09.480
yourself you know you you've got some

00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:11.880
trauma you imagine it as a being you

00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.240
speak to it these or um insultan you

00:55:15.240 --> 00:55:18.839
imagine uh in Tantra you imagine light

00:55:18.839 --> 00:55:21.240
and then you become light and then you

00:55:21.240 --> 00:55:24.900
become deities and our ability to

00:55:24.900 --> 00:55:27.119
shape shift

00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.599
um this this notion this switch

00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:33.660
that happens when it becomes no longer

00:55:33.660 --> 00:55:35.819
imagination and becomes imaginal it's

00:55:35.819 --> 00:55:38.640
very powerful because if you constantly

00:55:38.640 --> 00:55:40.859
say well I just imagined it then it

00:55:40.859 --> 00:55:44.400
doesn't have the power you know uh but

00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:49.859
if you feel possessed by it then

00:55:49.859 --> 00:55:51.720
um

00:55:51.720 --> 00:55:54.599
it's definitely

00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:56.400
um

00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:59.640
has the stamp of being real but then we

00:55:59.640 --> 00:56:01.500
say it's a different realm because we

00:56:01.500 --> 00:56:03.420
know it's a different kind of real right

00:56:03.420 --> 00:56:06.000
it's a it's real in the imaginal realm

00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:07.740
we don't say

00:56:07.740 --> 00:56:12.680
yeah so we we

00:56:12.680 --> 00:56:16.079
have the the the these experiences are

00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:19.400
like that the imaginal

00:56:21.140 --> 00:56:23.520
is real

00:56:23.520 --> 00:56:26.280
it has the all the markings and

00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.200
stampings of real that we're not making

00:56:28.200 --> 00:56:29.880
it up

00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:33.119
um but that's why we always say it's in

00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:35.220
the imaginal realm because we know that

00:56:35.220 --> 00:56:37.440
that's not real in the Ordinary World

00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:40.200
right it's not the way we function

00:56:40.200 --> 00:56:43.079
in the Ordinary World World

00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:44.000
um

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:45.680
but

00:56:45.680 --> 00:56:48.780
the the

00:56:48.780 --> 00:56:50.700
you know I don't want to get into the

00:56:50.700 --> 00:56:52.619
scientists question so what's the

00:56:52.619 --> 00:56:55.079
evolutionary advantage of this you know

00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:58.380
why is I I don't think that comes from

00:56:58.380 --> 00:57:00.859
I don't think it comes from

00:57:00.859 --> 00:57:05.339
adapting adaptation I mean one could say

00:57:05.339 --> 00:57:07.920
that the advantages we can enter a

00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:10.140
social imaginary and it's very real to

00:57:10.140 --> 00:57:13.440
us I mean there's something about that

00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:16.579
um but you know animals don't need

00:57:16.579 --> 00:57:20.160
termites don't need to imagine that

00:57:20.160 --> 00:57:22.800
their term termite Colony there's other

00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.640
things that uh

00:57:25.640 --> 00:57:27.559
pro-social

00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:31.020
functions but I would say the imaginal

00:57:31.020 --> 00:57:35.940
is an expansion of what what of what we

00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:37.319
can

00:57:37.319 --> 00:57:39.960
imagine is possible

00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:43.740
and so we are incredible innovators we

00:57:43.740 --> 00:57:46.619
we shapeshift all the time from one

00:57:46.619 --> 00:57:49.380
one century to another

00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:54.960
um and because the they seem so real uh

00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:56.940
we think that it's out there in the

00:57:56.940 --> 00:57:59.579
future waiting for it us to go there

00:57:59.579 --> 00:58:01.680
versus on just imagining it and not

00:58:01.680 --> 00:58:03.960
going to do anything about it right

00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:05.819
so

00:58:05.819 --> 00:58:09.240
yeah I was really interested in how you

00:58:09.240 --> 00:58:11.339
use that word to describe that which was

00:58:11.339 --> 00:58:13.020
possession

00:58:13.020 --> 00:58:15.240
and it seemed like no other word was

00:58:15.240 --> 00:58:17.339
really going to fit into what that feels

00:58:17.339 --> 00:58:18.420
like

00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:20.579
and then it sent my mind to this place

00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:24.119
more like maybe we are in in

00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:26.819
contemporary Society being possessed by

00:58:26.819 --> 00:58:28.800
the imaginal but we're just not aware of

00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:31.800
it maybe the Cosmopolitan self is an

00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:35.520
imaginal possession of certain ways of

00:58:35.520 --> 00:58:37.740
being that was just where it sent me and

00:58:37.740 --> 00:58:39.299
I thought that was quite

00:58:39.299 --> 00:58:42.180
um it's not it's all the same

00:58:42.180 --> 00:58:44.520
um if

00:58:44.520 --> 00:58:45.240
um

00:58:45.240 --> 00:58:48.839
if you were in you know the 20th uh the

00:58:48.839 --> 00:58:53.040
the 1800s and you were talking about

00:58:53.040 --> 00:58:56.099
the kinds of things that we take for

00:58:56.099 --> 00:58:58.079
granted in our social imaginary today

00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.119
they would think you were entered an

00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:03.660
imaginal space right because

00:59:03.660 --> 00:59:07.500
it's just so non-conventional

00:59:07.500 --> 00:59:10.200
um we we can also use this word that one

00:59:10.200 --> 00:59:12.119
of the things you're talking about is in

00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:14.040
the Buddhist language they use this word

00:59:14.040 --> 00:59:16.640
absorption

00:59:16.640 --> 00:59:18.299
and

00:59:18.299 --> 00:59:23.760
um there are studies that

00:59:24.420 --> 00:59:25.400
um

00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:28.200
that show that there's different you

00:59:28.200 --> 00:59:30.119
know like these um there's different

00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:32.040
typologies there's certain types of

00:59:32.040 --> 00:59:36.420
people who are are very high on the

00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:38.640
ability to be absorbed by things is it

00:59:38.640 --> 00:59:42.420
it's a quality of attention where

00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:44.160
um

00:59:44.160 --> 00:59:48.000
like meditative absorption is

00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.220
um you're meditating on a part of your

00:59:50.220 --> 00:59:52.020
body that feels good and pretty soon

00:59:52.020 --> 00:59:55.020
that that feel-good state becomes

00:59:55.020 --> 00:59:57.180
completely you're completely absorbed

00:59:57.180 --> 00:59:59.700
into that that state

00:59:59.700 --> 01:00:02.579
um and so that's what the genres do

01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:04.319
eventually

01:00:04.319 --> 01:00:08.359
um you you are completely absorbed into

01:00:08.359 --> 01:00:11.760
the nothingness which is a part of

01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.520
ordinary experience but you can make it

01:00:14.520 --> 01:00:18.000
the whole and if you want to know if you

01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:21.540
your kid is the type of person that can

01:00:21.540 --> 01:00:24.200
have these

01:00:24.200 --> 01:00:27.299
spaces or be absorbed now all kids do

01:00:27.299 --> 01:00:28.380
this but

01:00:28.380 --> 01:00:32.119
it's a it's a relative thing

01:00:33.299 --> 01:00:35.400
and this is I'm saying this because I

01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:37.859
want to show that it's very it's this is

01:00:37.859 --> 01:00:38.700
a

01:00:38.700 --> 01:00:41.880
ordinary human capacity and maybe this

01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:43.140
has happened to you you're going

01:00:43.140 --> 01:00:45.299
shopping with your mom and you know

01:00:45.299 --> 01:00:46.799
you're looking at things down the aisle

01:00:46.799 --> 01:00:49.260
and then in these stores they always put

01:00:49.260 --> 01:00:51.559
like cool little toys low to the ground

01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:54.540
and then you know you're just going like

01:00:54.540 --> 01:00:56.400
this and then all of a sudden for some

01:00:56.400 --> 01:00:59.160
reason because they're very smart you're

01:00:59.160 --> 01:01:01.880
fascinated with this toy and you freeze

01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:05.040
and then your imagination takes over and

01:01:05.040 --> 01:01:07.200
you you this thing becomes very

01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:09.599
important to you and then you could be

01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:11.339
there for hours you know this is how

01:01:11.339 --> 01:01:13.920
kids I used to do this all the time and

01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:15.720
then I would get lost because I didn't

01:01:15.720 --> 01:01:17.760
know where my mom was and I would have a

01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:20.160
panic attack but like you become

01:01:20.160 --> 01:01:23.280
completely absorbed by something it's

01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:26.280
imaginal and then your mother comes and

01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:28.799
you know pulls your hand and you don't

01:01:28.799 --> 01:01:32.220
you you feel like how could she be doing

01:01:32.220 --> 01:01:34.559
this this is so important and to her

01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:36.960
it's just like come on we gotta go and

01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:39.780
you can't it's hard for you to

01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:43.740
understand how oblivious like because in

01:01:43.740 --> 01:01:46.079
not in the imaginal world with you and

01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:46.799
so

01:01:46.799 --> 01:01:49.020
if you have several different kids and

01:01:49.020 --> 01:01:53.400
you notice some and you know uh some get

01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:56.220
absorbed in ways that others don't well

01:01:56.220 --> 01:01:59.700
this child is on the path to have all

01:01:59.700 --> 01:02:02.579
kinds of emotional experiences and if

01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:05.220
they take up Buddhism they will be a

01:02:05.220 --> 01:02:08.880
genic uh junkie genre junkie

01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:10.740
um so

01:02:10.740 --> 01:02:13.319
Sandra's smiling she must have one like

01:02:13.319 --> 01:02:16.319
that or you know something like that

01:02:16.319 --> 01:02:18.720
have grandchildren like that I

01:02:18.720 --> 01:02:21.839
definitely had children like that yeah

01:02:21.839 --> 01:02:23.960
and the parents

01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:26.940
you know I didn't know what to do as a

01:02:26.940 --> 01:02:29.760
parent and I watch

01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:33.000
my children not know what to do as a

01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:35.099
parent and I can hang with those kids

01:02:35.099 --> 01:02:37.859
forever yeah because when you're you

01:02:37.859 --> 01:02:39.359
don't have time when you're a parent

01:02:39.359 --> 01:02:43.859
right like oh you just like really and

01:02:43.859 --> 01:02:45.480
um and

01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:50.099
yeah so so also just saying how

01:02:50.099 --> 01:02:54.180
extraordinary it is but it's also

01:02:54.180 --> 01:02:54.900
um

01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:58.500
you know very ordinary I had this like I

01:02:58.500 --> 01:03:01.500
don't know I kind of you know when I get

01:03:01.500 --> 01:03:05.880
a little pissed off uh and and when Jill

01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:07.859
nephew said something yesterday right at

01:03:07.859 --> 01:03:10.559
the end like she said something that I

01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:11.760
definitely that I thought definitely

01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:13.859
needed to look at but she said it at the

01:03:13.859 --> 01:03:15.599
end when there was no time to say it so

01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:18.000
kind of kind of triggered me and you

01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:19.740
know she brought in the world word

01:03:19.740 --> 01:03:22.260
transcends it and I'm like all these

01:03:22.260 --> 01:03:25.079
experiences come out of ordinary like

01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:28.260
you could see them in ordinary every day

01:03:28.260 --> 01:03:33.240
uh children and and life and what I

01:03:33.240 --> 01:03:38.220
think is what makes Cults is that you

01:03:38.220 --> 01:03:40.920
have these experiences under highly

01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:44.460
stylized conditions and you don't see

01:03:44.460 --> 01:03:46.400
them as just natural

01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:49.140
capacities of the human and like some

01:03:49.140 --> 01:03:51.599
okay some people are more absorptive

01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:53.760
personalities than others there's a

01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:56.579
spectrum but it doesn't come from the

01:03:56.579 --> 01:04:00.059
priest or the religion it comes from you

01:04:00.059 --> 01:04:01.799
know certainly the design of the

01:04:01.799 --> 01:04:04.319
technology but they never then say oh

01:04:04.319 --> 01:04:06.240
you know what you just did that's like a

01:04:06.240 --> 01:04:08.819
kid when it gets absorbed to a toy they

01:04:08.819 --> 01:04:11.700
there that would be blasphemy to tell as

01:04:11.700 --> 01:04:14.880
an teacher that that's what is actually

01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:17.220
happening right but that doesn't

01:04:17.220 --> 01:04:20.339
diminish it it makes it more cool it's

01:04:20.339 --> 01:04:24.240
like a mystery that were were composed

01:04:24.240 --> 01:04:26.880
this way that we function this way and

01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:30.079
then so the question is like

01:04:31.020 --> 01:04:33.839
I think what we're saying and we haven't

01:04:33.839 --> 01:04:35.579
answered the question I don't know if I

01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:38.400
can answer it it's like what is

01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:40.200
you know I don't want to instrumentalize

01:04:40.200 --> 01:04:41.599
it but

01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:44.819
why don't we support more

01:04:44.819 --> 01:04:48.900
uh activity in that direction outside of

01:04:48.900 --> 01:04:51.299
a spiritualized context because when

01:04:51.299 --> 01:04:53.220
it's inside of a spiritualized context

01:04:53.220 --> 01:04:57.119
it just it gets too trippy and you know

01:04:57.119 --> 01:04:59.640
and of course it is a Trippy experience

01:04:59.640 --> 01:05:01.380
but you know what I'm saying it's like

01:05:01.380 --> 01:05:03.599
it's it makes it

01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:05.700
uh

01:05:05.700 --> 01:05:08.460
it makes it seem like some people have

01:05:08.460 --> 01:05:11.819
are exceptional Buddhist exceptionalism

01:05:11.819 --> 01:05:15.299
they call it or something and

01:05:15.299 --> 01:05:17.339
um

01:05:17.339 --> 01:05:20.220
but isn't it like that

01:05:20.220 --> 01:05:23.339
there's certain rituals and behavior

01:05:23.339 --> 01:05:25.020
that are training those natural

01:05:25.020 --> 01:05:28.020
capacities so those natural capacities

01:05:28.020 --> 01:05:30.900
happen in the human world naturally

01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:32.880
and then there's like

01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:36.420
certain sets of

01:05:36.420 --> 01:05:42.140
ritual or exercises in you know

01:05:42.599 --> 01:05:45.799
or opening up that quality of attention

01:05:45.799 --> 01:05:49.500
that are kind of have to be within a

01:05:49.500 --> 01:05:51.599
particular context

01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:54.359
because you're training you're training

01:05:54.359 --> 01:05:56.400
and awareness of those dates that happen

01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:59.280
naturally for humans

01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:01.200
does that make sense when you said I

01:06:01.200 --> 01:06:02.640
thought that but the context is

01:06:02.640 --> 01:06:04.740
important and it's doing something else

01:06:04.740 --> 01:06:09.180
in in a religious setting or in a

01:06:09.180 --> 01:06:12.059
that goes deeper or more consciously

01:06:12.059 --> 01:06:15.740
into into those places

01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:28.079
it we have to go to a monastery to

01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:31.859
uh experience it and over time

01:06:31.859 --> 01:06:33.480
people have

01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:35.280
created

01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.700
you know stylized design or instruction

01:06:38.700 --> 01:06:41.220
or support

01:06:41.220 --> 01:06:45.119
um in order to elicit these experiences

01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:50.400
but then the question is uh okay this

01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:53.000
looks like something

01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:01.980
um but then the question is

01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:04.039
um

01:07:06.859 --> 01:07:10.619
yeah what what is what is there you know

01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:12.900
again it has to do with why does it

01:07:12.900 --> 01:07:14.760
matter what what what is that what do

01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:17.880
they feel is at stake and in some

01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:20.700
communities uh you know like a lot of

01:07:20.700 --> 01:07:22.020
times

01:07:22.020 --> 01:07:25.020
um these experiences are

01:07:25.020 --> 01:07:27.000
um thinking of Cheryl's participation

01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:30.539
Mystique you know it's it's it's

01:07:30.539 --> 01:07:33.299
um what's at stake is art art it's in

01:07:33.299 --> 01:07:35.579
service to Art you know to to just

01:07:35.579 --> 01:07:38.280
generate more imaginal

01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:38.960
um

01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:40.559
uh

01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:42.599
um spaces and

01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:46.940
um in some cases it's it's it's

01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:50.180
made prob it's problematized by

01:07:50.180 --> 01:07:53.220
Transcendent overtones and a hierarchy

01:07:53.220 --> 01:07:55.319
of the adequate

01:07:55.319 --> 01:07:57.119
um and

01:07:57.119 --> 01:07:59.880
um sometimes that's naive because the

01:07:59.880 --> 01:08:03.240
teachers might themselves uh be in this

01:08:03.240 --> 01:08:05.880
imaginary you know social imaginary area

01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:08.640
called The Cult and sometimes they're

01:08:08.640 --> 01:08:11.280
not sometimes they kind of know

01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:14.940
it's more of a business model you know

01:08:14.940 --> 01:08:18.560
um I know a lot of people who run

01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:22.140
ashrams who don't really believe the

01:08:22.140 --> 01:08:26.520
stuff themselves you know like

01:08:26.520 --> 01:08:30.540
um but people enjoy the experience and

01:08:30.540 --> 01:08:31.859
they just

01:08:31.859 --> 01:08:33.299
keep going

01:08:33.299 --> 01:08:35.759
I mean I have a friend he doesn't run in

01:08:35.759 --> 01:08:38.160
ashram anymore but you know used to have

01:08:38.160 --> 01:08:39.600
people like

01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:42.600
get into such states that they would

01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:44.520
he'd have to have someone like catch

01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:46.380
them when they fall when he touched them

01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:49.080
and all this stuff and he he just sees

01:08:49.080 --> 01:08:51.359
it as a psychotechnology now he's like

01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:53.580
the whole thing seems it seems

01:08:53.580 --> 01:08:55.679
ridiculous to him now so

01:08:55.679 --> 01:08:58.880
it's it's

01:09:02.100 --> 01:09:04.560
because it's a natural human capacity

01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:07.980
it's not necessarily

01:09:07.980 --> 01:09:10.380
more in the correct direction than

01:09:10.380 --> 01:09:12.480
having people

01:09:12.480 --> 01:09:15.359
um be good at running running or walking

01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:17.580
for thousands of miles is a natural

01:09:17.580 --> 01:09:21.060
human capacity too or

01:09:21.060 --> 01:09:26.339
um and so you know it'd be like having

01:09:26.339 --> 01:09:29.520
a society where everyone sits around and

01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.100
is all imaginal and then having some

01:09:32.100 --> 01:09:34.799
weird shamans trying to convince you to

01:09:34.799 --> 01:09:38.520
walk for 50 miles and you will have

01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:40.859
an interesting experience because it's

01:09:40.859 --> 01:09:42.600
it's rare and it's

01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:45.480
part of your human condition that you

01:09:45.480 --> 01:09:47.699
haven't exercised but

01:09:47.699 --> 01:09:50.279
it doesn't mean it's walking is closer

01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:52.739
to God any more than being in an

01:09:52.739 --> 01:09:55.199
imaginal space is closer to God and

01:09:55.199 --> 01:09:59.900
there's always this eschatology that one

01:09:59.900 --> 01:10:02.699
aspect is of your natural human

01:10:02.699 --> 01:10:04.620
condition is closer to God than others

01:10:04.620 --> 01:10:07.580
that's all I'm saying

01:10:08.219 --> 01:10:09.179
um

01:10:09.179 --> 01:10:11.460
if you're if you're a hardcore scientist

01:10:11.460 --> 01:10:13.920
you think science is closer to God you

01:10:13.920 --> 01:10:15.179
know

01:10:15.179 --> 01:10:17.280
um so that's that's all I'm saying I

01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:20.060
don't think there are

01:10:21.120 --> 01:10:23.460
the sum total The Human Condition is the

01:10:23.460 --> 01:10:25.620
some total The Human Condition

01:10:25.620 --> 01:10:27.420
and

01:10:27.420 --> 01:10:31.080
um and all that it's you know it's like

01:10:31.080 --> 01:10:33.780
perception all these these potentials

01:10:33.780 --> 01:10:36.480
work together

01:10:36.480 --> 01:10:37.500
um

01:10:37.500 --> 01:10:40.739
in in The Human Condition

01:10:40.739 --> 01:10:42.739
um

01:10:43.140 --> 01:10:46.199
but they all have their interdependent

01:10:46.199 --> 01:10:47.880
and they all work together but they're

01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:51.960
also semi semi-independent

01:10:52.320 --> 01:10:54.960
as we noticed the word intuition and

01:10:54.960 --> 01:10:58.260
imaginal Imagination they point to kind

01:10:58.260 --> 01:11:02.060
of different configurations of

01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:05.840
of the human

01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:12.239
can you unpack pragmatic imagination a

01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:14.540
little bit

01:11:14.699 --> 01:11:17.760
yeah so

01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:21.620
so it comes from uh and Pendleton Julian

01:11:21.620 --> 01:11:26.910
uh pragmatic imagination is

01:11:26.910 --> 01:11:27.480
[Music]

01:11:27.480 --> 01:11:28.560
um

01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:30.800
um

01:11:31.020 --> 01:11:35.100
I mean it's pragmatic so let's say you

01:11:35.100 --> 01:11:38.400
so the problem I have to just say set it

01:11:38.400 --> 01:11:41.159
up this way the problem we have today is

01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:43.620
that we

01:11:43.620 --> 01:11:46.199
have separated right we separate

01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:48.480
everything we have we've separated the

01:11:48.480 --> 01:11:49.860
imaginal

01:11:49.860 --> 01:11:51.960
and

01:11:51.960 --> 01:11:55.620
um and and and science so and Technology

01:11:55.620 --> 01:12:00.719
let's say so uh we think that we can fix

01:12:00.719 --> 01:12:04.320
real world problems by technology and

01:12:04.320 --> 01:12:06.480
scientific reasoning

01:12:06.480 --> 01:12:09.540
complex systems thinking that that stuff

01:12:09.540 --> 01:12:11.880
and then we think we can be Spiritual

01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:14.880
Beings or whatever

01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:18.600
um by entering the imaginal

01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:22.020
and what pragmatic imagination says no

01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:25.920
no we need to use the imagination

01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.020
in toward

01:12:28.020 --> 01:12:31.320
the goals that we usually put technology

01:12:31.320 --> 01:12:33.600
to

01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:34.380
um

01:12:34.380 --> 01:12:38.940
um the pragmatic side of it and so right

01:12:38.940 --> 01:12:41.520
now we often so yes it's the case you

01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:44.159
can enter an imaginal realm and then

01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:47.460
that when you go back to your your desk

01:12:47.460 --> 01:12:50.520
as a scientist you might get in get a

01:12:50.520 --> 01:12:54.239
new idea because you've you've uh

01:12:54.239 --> 01:12:55.679
you've

01:12:55.679 --> 01:12:58.440
taken time off to open up your mind a

01:12:58.440 --> 01:13:01.260
little but they're still separate and so

01:13:01.260 --> 01:13:06.120
pragmatic imagination is deals uh the

01:13:06.120 --> 01:13:08.640
easiest way to understand it to start is

01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:11.040
well specular speculation we talked

01:13:11.040 --> 01:13:13.620
about specular philosophy but counter

01:13:13.620 --> 01:13:15.600
factuals

01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:18.300
so what's a counter factual

01:13:18.300 --> 01:13:20.640
um so you see something

01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:21.540
um

01:13:21.540 --> 01:13:25.020
um today that

01:13:25.020 --> 01:13:29.219
um seems to be something that

01:13:29.219 --> 01:13:30.179
um

01:13:30.179 --> 01:13:33.780
you know this givenness of the world

01:13:33.780 --> 01:13:37.980
um so uh you you see something

01:13:37.980 --> 01:13:40.199
I'm trying to figure out one that's

01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:43.020
useful like Claudia's example you see

01:13:43.020 --> 01:13:44.159
that

01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:46.159
um

01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:50.460
um okay so here's one

01:13:50.460 --> 01:13:52.980
um people say that you know the whole

01:13:52.980 --> 01:13:56.219
point of the universe is

01:13:56.219 --> 01:13:56.940
um

01:13:56.940 --> 01:13:59.520
um the universe wants to grow toward

01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:01.860
more and more complexity all right so

01:14:01.860 --> 01:14:04.080
just about everybody believes that as a

01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:08.159
fact but then you can say but what if

01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:11.100
what if that's not true I'm gonna have a

01:14:11.100 --> 01:14:13.380
counter factual here I could probably

01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:18.719
find uh scientific facts that can be

01:14:18.719 --> 01:14:21.360
stored but equally that the Universe

01:14:21.360 --> 01:14:24.239
also eliminates complexity

01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:29.400
as much as it creates complexity and so

01:14:29.400 --> 01:14:29.940
um

01:14:29.940 --> 01:14:31.560
what are the things we have to

01:14:31.560 --> 01:14:33.600
understand is that science

01:14:33.600 --> 01:14:36.900
works with facts

01:14:36.900 --> 01:14:40.140
but they thread its threat has to thread

01:14:40.140 --> 01:14:44.580
the facts in a narrative right and so

01:14:44.580 --> 01:14:45.480
um

01:14:45.480 --> 01:14:47.600
um

01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:49.280
like

01:14:49.280 --> 01:14:51.719
here's here's a fact

01:14:51.719 --> 01:14:55.140
when an octopus you've seen probably the

01:14:55.140 --> 01:14:58.860
my octopus teacher okay so the octopus

01:14:58.860 --> 01:15:02.460
gets pregnant and then in the process of

01:15:02.460 --> 01:15:05.400
having babies it metabolizes itself

01:15:05.400 --> 01:15:07.260
okay

01:15:07.260 --> 01:15:11.880
and so the the mother octopus is just

01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:15.000
it gets composted it metabolizes itself

01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:17.280
and then the babies are born now I'm

01:15:17.280 --> 01:15:20.040
going to ask you is the is the mother

01:15:20.040 --> 01:15:24.560
octopus still around

01:15:25.980 --> 01:15:28.500
well it depends how you narrate the

01:15:28.500 --> 01:15:30.780
story now the mother octopus has become

01:15:30.780 --> 01:15:33.719
any octopuses so it's like saying is the

01:15:33.719 --> 01:15:37.260
first amoeba still around well when I

01:15:37.260 --> 01:15:39.120
when I say is the first amoeba still

01:15:39.120 --> 01:15:42.239
around you you tend to say yes you

01:15:42.239 --> 01:15:44.040
understand you can't point to it because

01:15:44.040 --> 01:15:49.140
an amoeba turns into two into four right

01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:52.560
but in a certain sense so is the octopus

01:15:52.560 --> 01:15:54.360
still around

01:15:54.360 --> 01:15:57.480
um just because not all of it gets

01:15:57.480 --> 01:15:59.340
metabolized there's something left over

01:15:59.340 --> 01:16:02.159
you say oh that's what's left over is

01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:04.260
the dead mother and this is something

01:16:04.260 --> 01:16:07.860
different if it metabolized all of

01:16:07.860 --> 01:16:10.739
itself then you would wonder well it's

01:16:10.739 --> 01:16:13.320
kind of still alive right so these are

01:16:13.320 --> 01:16:15.420
just working with facts

01:16:15.420 --> 01:16:18.300
but the narrative structure

01:16:18.300 --> 01:16:21.239
is completely different depend upon how

01:16:21.239 --> 01:16:23.520
you imagine it to be the case

01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:26.960
so pragmatic imagination

01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:30.840
works with facts

01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:34.500
but speculates that it could have been

01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.620
otherwise or it could be otherwise

01:16:37.620 --> 01:16:41.100
and shows that

01:16:41.100 --> 01:16:45.440
you can use these facts

01:16:45.440 --> 01:16:48.120
and see it in a completely different way

01:16:48.120 --> 01:16:50.280
and the ramifications are then you can

01:16:50.280 --> 01:16:52.800
see your way to inventing things in a

01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:56.219
New Direction so

01:16:56.820 --> 01:16:58.760
um I think we should teach

01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:02.880
counterfactual thinking in children and

01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:06.239
have them work in teams to

01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:08.040
um surf the Internet and see if it's

01:17:08.040 --> 01:17:10.260
actually maybe possible and if the

01:17:10.260 --> 01:17:12.000
internet says it's not possible then

01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:13.860
they get another fact and then while

01:17:13.860 --> 01:17:16.260
they have to run a counterfactual on

01:17:16.260 --> 01:17:18.659
that fact so they use their imagination

01:17:18.659 --> 01:17:21.060
it's very imaginative

01:17:21.060 --> 01:17:25.500
but it's Tethered to

01:17:25.500 --> 01:17:27.840
what we would call

01:17:27.840 --> 01:17:31.620
facts I mean you you know if you can

01:17:31.620 --> 01:17:33.659
beat me up on that term but it's

01:17:33.659 --> 01:17:36.659
Tethered to uh

01:17:36.659 --> 01:17:38.780
um

01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:42.060
building World building

01:17:42.060 --> 01:17:44.820
not just mind building you know

01:17:44.820 --> 01:17:47.880
imaginary spaces so

01:17:47.880 --> 01:17:49.380
so

01:17:49.380 --> 01:17:53.640
um what and uh what Ann Pendleton you

01:17:53.640 --> 01:17:54.960
could you could

01:17:54.960 --> 01:17:59.159
look up her talk uh what she does is she

01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:01.440
has she was an architect at MIT and then

01:18:01.440 --> 01:18:03.239
she became

01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:06.780
um a philosopher or something and and

01:18:06.780 --> 01:18:09.060
worked with artists in Michigan I think

01:18:09.060 --> 01:18:12.360
and what she has people do is look for

01:18:12.360 --> 01:18:16.679
what I called uh memorable objects

01:18:16.679 --> 01:18:18.179
um so

01:18:18.179 --> 01:18:21.120
um if if you

01:18:21.120 --> 01:18:23.120
um

01:18:23.940 --> 01:18:26.340
um I think she calls a memorable objects

01:18:26.340 --> 01:18:29.880
or so like something like this right so

01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:33.120
if you saw this in a magazine

01:18:33.120 --> 01:18:38.659
and then you say well imagine

01:18:39.260 --> 01:18:43.020
this is a piece of music or or building

01:18:43.020 --> 01:18:44.820
let's say this is a building or

01:18:44.820 --> 01:18:47.400
preschool you want to create

01:18:47.400 --> 01:18:49.320
and then

01:18:49.320 --> 01:18:51.300
I mean you don't just say well these are

01:18:51.300 --> 01:18:54.719
rooms you say what if

01:18:54.719 --> 01:18:58.739
a preschool building was like this you

01:18:58.739 --> 01:19:01.739
see how how this comes back in well what

01:19:01.739 --> 01:19:03.540
is this like

01:19:03.540 --> 01:19:06.600
well this is like

01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:08.940
you know there's a lot going on and

01:19:08.940 --> 01:19:12.080
there's energy from us a certain

01:19:12.080 --> 01:19:15.120
swirling energy and so then I start to

01:19:15.120 --> 01:19:17.280
say swirling energy and this and that

01:19:17.280 --> 01:19:20.280
and so I'm using my imagination and so

01:19:20.280 --> 01:19:23.219
what if a preschool was like energy

01:19:23.219 --> 01:19:26.520
could swirl and now I'm an architect you

01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:30.960
see so so uh this is

01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:34.199
um what how you use and so that's the

01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:36.360
com like kind of counter factual well

01:19:36.360 --> 01:19:39.000
what is a preschool well it's a place

01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:41.820
where energy swirls that's not hard to

01:19:41.820 --> 01:19:43.020
answer

01:19:43.020 --> 01:19:45.719
um you know that's not the fact of the

01:19:45.719 --> 01:19:49.800
matter conventionally and so so you're

01:19:49.800 --> 01:19:52.739
kind of just looking for things that

01:19:52.739 --> 01:19:54.840
significant object that's what she calls

01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:57.719
it that kind of I'm fascinated with this

01:19:57.719 --> 01:20:00.360
thing and yet why should I you know I'm

01:20:00.360 --> 01:20:03.480
I'm I I'm on the zoning commission well

01:20:03.480 --> 01:20:07.020
because she'll say because you know so

01:20:07.020 --> 01:20:11.040
this something of something like this is

01:20:11.040 --> 01:20:13.080
something like that

01:20:13.080 --> 01:20:15.000
and then she'll take you through this

01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:17.100
process of

01:20:17.100 --> 01:20:19.320
um and it's not trivial and sometimes

01:20:19.320 --> 01:20:20.880
they you know she showed different

01:20:20.880 --> 01:20:25.080
people's uh uh work they they they come

01:20:25.080 --> 01:20:28.080
up with ideas for educational courses

01:20:28.080 --> 01:20:29.940
and you know they take the teams work on

01:20:29.940 --> 01:20:31.920
these things and sometimes they're not

01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:33.540
that interesting and every once in a

01:20:33.540 --> 01:20:36.540
while something really interesting uh

01:20:36.540 --> 01:20:38.580
comes up and so

01:20:38.580 --> 01:20:41.300
what you notice is that the imagination

01:20:41.300 --> 01:20:44.699
is integrated with perception I look at

01:20:44.699 --> 01:20:48.179
this uh integrated within the felt sense

01:20:48.179 --> 01:20:54.000
in in synesthesia and uh has a real goal

01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:57.239
in the world uh a practical question so

01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:04.199
this I think is what I would uh say is

01:21:04.199 --> 01:21:07.199
how

01:21:07.739 --> 01:21:10.679
what I think is important and and I

01:21:10.679 --> 01:21:12.600
wouldn't you know a much less like

01:21:12.600 --> 01:21:16.260
Charles eisenstein in terms of um yeah

01:21:16.260 --> 01:21:19.380
it's so art is like that because you

01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:22.560
know as I say uh if you're an artist and

01:21:22.560 --> 01:21:24.719
you're producing something you have the

01:21:24.719 --> 01:21:26.699
burden of the world you know the paint

01:21:26.699 --> 01:21:29.699
is stubborn the the model you're doing

01:21:29.699 --> 01:21:32.880
is stubborn the the

01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:35.400
you know you can imagine creating this

01:21:35.400 --> 01:21:36.960
great thing and then you start to paint

01:21:36.960 --> 01:21:39.179
and you're like oh you know

01:21:39.179 --> 01:21:42.900
uh the the real it's resistant to your

01:21:42.900 --> 01:21:44.580
idea

01:21:44.580 --> 01:21:47.699
um and you have to keep working with the

01:21:47.699 --> 01:21:49.800
real world and

01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:51.179
so

01:21:51.179 --> 01:21:53.280
um yeah so

01:21:53.280 --> 01:21:54.060
um

01:21:54.060 --> 01:21:55.500
you know then there's people who are

01:21:55.500 --> 01:21:57.719
like artistic imaginations but they

01:21:57.719 --> 01:21:59.580
don't actually produce anything that's

01:21:59.580 --> 01:22:01.460
more like just being

01:22:01.460 --> 01:22:05.340
imaginal all the time or something so

01:22:05.340 --> 01:22:07.980
um yeah so we

01:22:07.980 --> 01:22:11.520
yeah I guess I guess this is for me one

01:22:11.520 --> 01:22:14.360
of the most closest

01:22:14.360 --> 01:22:18.060
modules to to my everyday life and the

01:22:18.060 --> 01:22:20.520
way that my mind works and a lot of the

01:22:20.520 --> 01:22:22.980
things you're talking about from from

01:22:22.980 --> 01:22:26.340
the perspective of someone who's engaged

01:22:26.340 --> 01:22:29.520
in imagination in a daily way on

01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:32.159
different levels like a lot of them I

01:22:32.159 --> 01:22:34.739
can I can feel like different sets of

01:22:34.739 --> 01:22:36.000
nuance

01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.360
perhaps within within those things

01:22:39.360 --> 01:22:41.400
and there was something that I I wanted

01:22:41.400 --> 01:22:43.940
to

01:22:45.900 --> 01:22:48.239
uh

01:22:48.239 --> 01:22:50.880
there was something I wanted to express

01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:53.540
and it's I've lost it

01:22:53.540 --> 01:22:58.560
I got lost it happens to me too

01:22:58.560 --> 01:23:00.659
where was it

01:23:00.659 --> 01:23:02.880
um yeah firstly there was that thing of

01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:05.640
like this is my practice basically

01:23:05.640 --> 01:23:07.739
imaginal practice on all different

01:23:07.739 --> 01:23:10.080
levels in terms of practices of

01:23:10.080 --> 01:23:13.679
embodiment in terms of like this

01:23:13.679 --> 01:23:17.880
pragmatic imagination like how when you

01:23:17.880 --> 01:23:19.980
imagine something and you're like well

01:23:19.980 --> 01:23:21.780
then how am I going to construct that

01:23:21.780 --> 01:23:24.000
and there's only a certain amount that

01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:27.780
you can do within your mind and the rest

01:23:27.780 --> 01:23:30.120
comes when you're when you're faced with

01:23:30.120 --> 01:23:32.520
the materiality of something that's the

01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:35.219
pragmatic imagination right exactly it's

01:23:35.219 --> 01:23:38.040
the materiality and you know what what

01:23:38.040 --> 01:23:41.580
and you know so what artists are doing

01:23:41.580 --> 01:23:44.460
are creating significant objects

01:23:44.460 --> 01:23:47.400
so that when an architect sees it and

01:23:47.400 --> 01:23:51.480
they're mesmerized by it then that why

01:23:51.480 --> 01:23:53.100
is this

01:23:53.100 --> 01:23:55.500
like the problem I'm trying to work on

01:23:55.500 --> 01:23:59.340
do you know what I'm saying so so so

01:23:59.340 --> 01:24:01.400
it is a

01:24:01.400 --> 01:24:03.840
a lot of what artists are doing are

01:24:03.840 --> 01:24:07.980
creating significant objects that then

01:24:07.980 --> 01:24:12.480
people say oh well that you know when

01:24:12.480 --> 01:24:13.980
you walk through a museum for some

01:24:13.980 --> 01:24:15.060
reason like

01:24:15.060 --> 01:24:17.219
like this is one thing that

01:24:17.219 --> 01:24:19.280
um

01:24:19.560 --> 01:24:20.880
goo shop

01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:22.219
did

01:24:22.219 --> 01:24:25.400
which is this this this

01:24:25.400 --> 01:24:31.580
glass pain with something in it okay

01:24:31.580 --> 01:24:36.840
fair by her Bachelors yes yes yeah it's

01:24:36.840 --> 01:24:39.480
that's what it is and I saw a book and

01:24:39.480 --> 01:24:42.000
it I was mesmerized with it then I had

01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:44.400
the opportunity I was in Stockholm and

01:24:44.400 --> 01:24:47.340
had a day off and someone took me two

01:24:47.340 --> 01:24:50.940
the museum unbeknownst to him or me and

01:24:50.940 --> 01:24:55.320
there it was like like there it

01:24:55.320 --> 01:24:56.640
was now

01:24:56.640 --> 01:24:59.420
so

01:25:00.060 --> 01:25:02.580
that's what I'm saying like that lives

01:25:02.580 --> 01:25:04.380
in my imagination there's something

01:25:04.380 --> 01:25:07.080
about that that you know there's

01:25:07.080 --> 01:25:09.000
something about me

01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:11.520
that's something like that you know and

01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:13.440
so so

01:25:13.440 --> 01:25:14.280
um

01:25:14.280 --> 01:25:18.000
um and then if I was in this was would

01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.280
be for This Woman's Work so why are you

01:25:20.280 --> 01:25:22.500
so interested in that and then

01:25:22.500 --> 01:25:26.520
now what we don't want to do is to it's

01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:29.880
not a metaphor like if if it's called

01:25:29.880 --> 01:25:32.280
that brags and you know I'm not just

01:25:32.280 --> 01:25:34.020
gonna like tell a story there's

01:25:34.020 --> 01:25:36.239
something about the physicality of the

01:25:36.239 --> 01:25:38.940
object itself the way it's put together

01:25:38.940 --> 01:25:42.239
that is like something I'm trying to

01:25:42.239 --> 01:25:46.380
figure out or and and you can work work

01:25:46.380 --> 01:25:48.659
on it that way so

01:25:48.659 --> 01:25:52.100
um what we would call that thing

01:25:52.100 --> 01:25:56.340
uh is a pure abstraction

01:25:56.340 --> 01:25:58.560
the bride stripped there before her

01:25:58.560 --> 01:26:02.100
bachelor's is a pure abstraction of

01:26:02.100 --> 01:26:03.300
something

01:26:03.300 --> 01:26:05.880
not of the bridester Bear by our

01:26:05.880 --> 01:26:08.280
Bachelors he's such a cheeky thing he

01:26:08.280 --> 01:26:09.600
does

01:26:09.600 --> 01:26:10.199
um

01:26:10.199 --> 01:26:12.179
so

01:26:12.179 --> 01:26:14.239
um

01:26:16.980 --> 01:26:18.239
so

01:26:18.239 --> 01:26:20.760
uh yeah

01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:23.340
so that's that's where a lot of this you

01:26:23.340 --> 01:26:26.280
know the significant objects come from

01:26:26.280 --> 01:26:29.940
I think he had a technique where he had

01:26:29.940 --> 01:26:33.840
that glass in his studio for a really

01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:36.300
long time into this he gathered loads of

01:26:36.300 --> 01:26:39.300
dust and someone shot a hole through it

01:26:39.300 --> 01:26:41.159
there was like this whole story about

01:26:41.159 --> 01:26:44.340
how that came about into being which was

01:26:44.340 --> 01:26:47.420
like a kind of mixture between

01:26:47.420 --> 01:26:50.820
observation it was very it was very what

01:26:50.820 --> 01:26:54.179
I remember about that was from you know

01:26:54.179 --> 01:26:55.880
art history

01:26:55.880 --> 01:26:59.300
was that it was very without intention

01:26:59.300 --> 01:27:03.659
in some sense like the making of of that

01:27:03.659 --> 01:27:04.920
piece

01:27:04.920 --> 01:27:07.320
yeah I'm also fascinated by that

01:27:07.320 --> 01:27:09.659
particular piece by the way yeah and he

01:27:09.659 --> 01:27:13.040
he started it and then it took him years

01:27:13.040 --> 01:27:17.639
because it lived in his imagination so

01:27:17.639 --> 01:27:20.460
um you know Sandra that's the thing it

01:27:20.460 --> 01:27:25.340
didn't just form from an idealization

01:27:25.940 --> 01:27:29.880
about through a relationship with time

01:27:29.880 --> 01:27:33.300
and materiality yeah that formed

01:27:33.300 --> 01:27:37.020
together with his hand something it was

01:27:37.020 --> 01:27:40.260
a significant object for him that he

01:27:40.260 --> 01:27:41.360
turned into

01:27:41.360 --> 01:27:43.679
made it more significant or something

01:27:43.679 --> 01:27:46.139
you know so Sandra you know when we read

01:27:46.139 --> 01:27:48.179
visited Ward this is the same kind of

01:27:48.179 --> 01:27:50.520
mentality right so

01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:54.179
um and and those things he created and

01:27:54.179 --> 01:27:57.360
showed us there's so much

01:27:57.360 --> 01:28:00.840
of significant objects in them they're

01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:03.120
they're pure abstractions

01:28:03.120 --> 01:28:05.040
um

01:28:05.040 --> 01:28:06.300
I know

01:28:06.300 --> 01:28:08.820
that was only for Sandra but just saying

01:28:08.820 --> 01:28:10.560
Claudia

01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:14.460
yeah really great as you as you were

01:28:14.460 --> 01:28:17.580
both speaking I what kept coming into my

01:28:17.580 --> 01:28:18.600
mind probably because I've been working

01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:20.520
on a farm a lot

01:28:20.520 --> 01:28:23.460
um is that nature is full of significant

01:28:23.460 --> 01:28:25.260
objects

01:28:25.260 --> 01:28:30.239
and I sometimes find that if I'm

01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:31.620
you know working on something or

01:28:31.620 --> 01:28:33.179
frustrated by something

01:28:33.179 --> 01:28:35.639
that you know the answer will come

01:28:35.639 --> 01:28:36.840
somehow

01:28:36.840 --> 01:28:39.719
through something that I've noticed

01:28:39.719 --> 01:28:43.739
in nature so and you know the words that

01:28:43.739 --> 01:28:45.480
we've been using is that nature is kind

01:28:45.480 --> 01:28:48.719
of the real but now you've brought in

01:28:48.719 --> 01:28:51.659
the idea that there's abstractions

01:28:51.659 --> 01:28:54.179
there too and I just wondered

01:28:54.179 --> 01:28:56.520
yeah I mean you know I mean there's a

01:28:56.520 --> 01:28:58.139
long history of this isn't there like

01:28:58.139 --> 01:29:00.420
even things like biomimicry are looking

01:29:00.420 --> 01:29:03.120
at significant in this case Technologies

01:29:03.120 --> 01:29:05.340
in nature to try and

01:29:05.340 --> 01:29:07.560
follow them but in on the more kind of

01:29:07.560 --> 01:29:10.260
artistic side or the more you know using

01:29:10.260 --> 01:29:12.780
the language of the course

01:29:12.780 --> 01:29:14.520
uh you know I haven't really made that

01:29:14.520 --> 01:29:16.139
that connection I don't know if it yeah

01:29:16.139 --> 01:29:18.719
so did are there abstractions in nature

01:29:18.719 --> 01:29:22.620
yeah DNA

01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:26.280
what do you what are you DNA is an

01:29:26.280 --> 01:29:28.920
abstraction of the historical evolution

01:29:28.920 --> 01:29:31.820
of the organism

01:29:32.639 --> 01:29:35.760
s it just has these codes they're codes

01:29:35.760 --> 01:29:37.679
right

01:29:37.679 --> 01:29:39.840
um so

01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:41.280
the way we're going to use abstraction

01:29:41.280 --> 01:29:42.420
so there's different ways to use

01:29:42.420 --> 01:29:46.980
abstractions like when I complain that

01:29:46.980 --> 01:29:47.600
um

01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:51.060
uh John is too abstract you know he just

01:29:51.060 --> 01:29:53.159
uses one abstraction to point to another

01:29:53.159 --> 01:29:55.320
obstruction these are kind of like

01:29:55.320 --> 01:29:57.960
linguistic abstractions

01:29:57.960 --> 01:30:01.820
um so we're going to talk so those those

01:30:01.820 --> 01:30:04.620
we can say the problem with abstractions

01:30:04.620 --> 01:30:06.960
is they abstract

01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:10.080
um the rest of the story from

01:30:10.080 --> 01:30:10.860
um

01:30:10.860 --> 01:30:12.780
from meaning

01:30:12.780 --> 01:30:15.540
um and and so

01:30:15.540 --> 01:30:17.699
um but those are linguistic or

01:30:17.699 --> 01:30:19.920
conceptual or linguistic abstractions

01:30:19.920 --> 01:30:21.120
we're going to talk about pure

01:30:21.120 --> 01:30:24.480
abstractions which I believe is the way

01:30:24.480 --> 01:30:27.060
the Mind enters the world directly

01:30:27.060 --> 01:30:31.139
without representational thought this is

01:30:31.139 --> 01:30:33.900
kind of uh so it's kind of like

01:30:33.900 --> 01:30:36.120
intuition what is intuition you're

01:30:36.120 --> 01:30:40.020
intuiting the world from a deep pattern

01:30:40.020 --> 01:30:41.280
recognition

01:30:41.280 --> 01:30:44.219
and it's the Deep patterns in nature

01:30:44.219 --> 01:30:47.639
that are abstractions right so like the

01:30:47.639 --> 01:30:51.659
Fibonacci squares a deep pattern

01:30:51.659 --> 01:30:55.440
it's in nature we're not idiots

01:30:55.440 --> 01:30:58.739
um but the mind can see that pattern

01:30:58.739 --> 01:31:02.400
they can see the obstruction it's a pure

01:31:02.400 --> 01:31:04.880
obstruction

01:31:05.760 --> 01:31:08.960
um so just like I can see

01:31:08.960 --> 01:31:12.860
the tree I can see the Practical

01:31:12.860 --> 01:31:15.480
branching structure

01:31:15.480 --> 01:31:18.360
what's the fractal branching structure

01:31:18.360 --> 01:31:21.540
is it it's it's not in my mind and it's

01:31:21.540 --> 01:31:24.960
not in the tree it's the it's the way

01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:27.840
the Mind enters the world it's an UPS it

01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:29.699
abstracts

01:31:29.699 --> 01:31:32.159
um so

01:31:32.159 --> 01:31:32.960
um

01:31:32.960 --> 01:31:36.300
there is there is some of this happening

01:31:36.300 --> 01:31:39.239
in the animals too but

01:31:39.239 --> 01:31:40.560
um people

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:42.480
are

01:31:42.480 --> 01:31:44.040
um

01:31:44.040 --> 01:31:48.300
very good at abstraction so we also talk

01:31:48.300 --> 01:31:50.460
about pure abstractions if you're an

01:31:50.460 --> 01:31:54.120
artist you work with color shape concept

01:31:54.120 --> 01:31:58.620
of flow Interruption uh

01:31:58.620 --> 01:32:02.340
um Rhythm all these things uh you're

01:32:02.340 --> 01:32:05.400
working with as an artist and

01:32:05.400 --> 01:32:08.040
um we would call them pure abstractions

01:32:08.040 --> 01:32:09.840
Claudia

01:32:09.840 --> 01:32:12.659
and and are they

01:32:12.659 --> 01:32:14.880
kind of pure because they're also in you

01:32:14.880 --> 01:32:16.080
somehow

01:32:16.080 --> 01:32:19.380
when you enter the world like that

01:32:19.380 --> 01:32:21.000
um

01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.520
yeah they're pure I mean I just use that

01:32:23.520 --> 01:32:27.360
word this is uh because I I also have

01:32:27.360 --> 01:32:29.520
written a lot in poo poo abstractions I

01:32:29.520 --> 01:32:32.159
want I want a different different word

01:32:32.159 --> 01:32:34.320
but they're pure because they're an act

01:32:34.320 --> 01:32:36.780
of perception now what's the perceptual

01:32:36.780 --> 01:32:40.500
organ this the mind uh

01:32:40.500 --> 01:32:42.600
um and this is the proper use of the

01:32:42.600 --> 01:32:44.460
Mind versus

01:32:44.460 --> 01:32:46.219
um you know some other other

01:32:46.219 --> 01:32:48.900
telling narrative delusions and stuff

01:32:48.900 --> 01:32:52.440
like that is probably not um so yes and

01:32:52.440 --> 01:32:54.600
that's what you see in nature sometimes

01:32:54.600 --> 01:32:56.699
you only Intuit them

01:32:56.699 --> 01:33:00.300
and sometimes you can

01:33:00.300 --> 01:33:03.120
pull them out like

01:33:03.120 --> 01:33:06.480
like uh the way cauliflower goes like

01:33:06.480 --> 01:33:08.820
the spirals you can pull it out right

01:33:08.820 --> 01:33:11.520
and then you see it in the seashells but

01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:13.860
sometimes you're actually only intuiting

01:33:13.860 --> 01:33:15.360
them

01:33:15.360 --> 01:33:17.340
um and

01:33:17.340 --> 01:33:18.000
um

01:33:18.000 --> 01:33:20.699
um and that's what I would say is part

01:33:20.699 --> 01:33:24.179
of intuition like it's not so obvious

01:33:24.179 --> 01:33:26.699
that now

01:33:26.699 --> 01:33:28.920
um but of course this is what people do

01:33:28.920 --> 01:33:30.960
there are people who work are working on

01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:33.360
why is why are we intuiting that and

01:33:33.360 --> 01:33:34.980
then they'll work out the math and the

01:33:34.980 --> 01:33:36.719
hidden structure and the crystalline or

01:33:36.719 --> 01:33:39.420
something and then you find out yes you

01:33:39.420 --> 01:33:41.940
were intuitively understanding a

01:33:41.940 --> 01:33:44.460
structural phenomenon that you needed

01:33:44.460 --> 01:33:46.920
Crystal radiography to see or something

01:33:46.920 --> 01:33:49.980
like that right but this is what we are

01:33:49.980 --> 01:33:52.460
going to call

01:33:52.679 --> 01:33:54.719
um pure obstructions math and pure

01:33:54.719 --> 01:33:56.460
abstractions

01:33:56.460 --> 01:33:59.460
um but like perception it's a perception

01:33:59.460 --> 01:34:01.620
is an interface between the body and the

01:34:01.620 --> 01:34:03.000
world

01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:04.440
um

01:34:04.440 --> 01:34:06.179
pure abstractions are the same thing

01:34:06.179 --> 01:34:08.880
they're not constructions they're not so

01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:12.600
they're less imaginative in a sense

01:34:12.600 --> 01:34:13.560
um

01:34:13.560 --> 01:34:15.640
yeah and

01:34:15.640 --> 01:34:16.020
[Music]

01:34:16.020 --> 01:34:17.760
um

01:34:17.760 --> 01:34:20.159
so you have people doing theoretical

01:34:20.159 --> 01:34:21.780
mathematics what is theoretical

01:34:21.780 --> 01:34:23.880
mathematics well they take abstractions

01:34:23.880 --> 01:34:26.400
and they imagine that

01:34:26.400 --> 01:34:29.040
you could

01:34:29.040 --> 01:34:32.460
have the square root of number one minus

01:34:32.460 --> 01:34:34.020
one we can we're going to look at that

01:34:34.020 --> 01:34:36.179
because it's a counterfactual and then

01:34:36.179 --> 01:34:38.880
they find out well so what maybe maybe

01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:40.500
there's a whole other Universal math

01:34:40.500 --> 01:34:42.120
that works like that and they create

01:34:42.120 --> 01:34:45.300
whole other mathematical structures so

01:34:45.300 --> 01:34:48.120
they've used their imagination to create

01:34:48.120 --> 01:34:50.639
pure abstractions and then it turns out

01:34:50.639 --> 01:34:52.860
that these pure obstructions are useful

01:34:52.860 --> 01:34:55.139
in science and then you wonder like what

01:34:55.139 --> 01:34:58.800
like how is that possible and I'm trying

01:34:58.800 --> 01:35:00.600
to show you why it's possible because

01:35:00.600 --> 01:35:01.760
it's all

01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:03.780
generate you know the generative

01:35:03.780 --> 01:35:06.360
function is the body

01:35:06.360 --> 01:35:09.360
um and the body is the generative

01:35:09.360 --> 01:35:12.659
function of the body is nature so

01:35:12.659 --> 01:35:14.400
um

01:35:14.400 --> 01:35:16.460
that's why it's possible you know it's

01:35:16.460 --> 01:35:19.860
neither a modernist stance or a

01:35:19.860 --> 01:35:23.060
post-modernist stance

01:35:23.400 --> 01:35:26.639
it's a strong naturalism

01:35:26.639 --> 01:35:29.219
foreign

01:35:29.219 --> 01:35:31.679
so this is good because you know a big

01:35:31.679 --> 01:35:34.139
part of this course is very modular but

01:35:34.139 --> 01:35:36.300
if when we're in the module we can start

01:35:36.300 --> 01:35:39.360
to see where we've come and this this

01:35:39.360 --> 01:35:41.219
gives us a sense of actually what we're

01:35:41.219 --> 01:35:44.300
trying trying to do

01:35:45.000 --> 01:35:47.179
um

01:35:51.860 --> 01:35:54.239
bye Zoe

01:35:54.239 --> 01:35:56.940
go create some significant objects so we

01:35:56.940 --> 01:35:59.639
can imagine new lives about them I've

01:35:59.639 --> 01:36:01.620
got a whole room full of significant

01:36:01.620 --> 01:36:04.320
objects here some of which I've created

01:36:04.320 --> 01:36:06.120
and some of which I've found and some of

01:36:06.120 --> 01:36:09.960
which are a mixture I know

01:36:09.960 --> 01:36:12.659
bye everybody

01:36:12.659 --> 01:36:17.040
so delusion Qatari were were using

01:36:17.040 --> 01:36:19.280
pragmatic uh

01:36:19.280 --> 01:36:22.560
imagination like imagining reality as

01:36:22.560 --> 01:36:25.679
folds and rhizomes and so that was stuff

01:36:25.679 --> 01:36:28.139
in the world that they were using as

01:36:28.139 --> 01:36:29.699
significant objects but they're trying

01:36:29.699 --> 01:36:32.159
to look at society and social systems

01:36:32.159 --> 01:36:34.880
into in history in different ways using

01:36:34.880 --> 01:36:39.120
using them so that's that's a a good uh

01:36:39.120 --> 01:36:42.840
example of that in recent times so

01:36:42.840 --> 01:36:44.900
um

01:36:45.420 --> 01:36:48.080
foreign

01:36:55.280 --> 01:36:58.679
conversation to you know to have as a

01:36:58.679 --> 01:37:01.139
recording because so people can

01:37:01.139 --> 01:37:04.800
see some of this kind of segue and how

01:37:04.800 --> 01:37:06.239
the

01:37:06.239 --> 01:37:10.760
how it holds within the larger project

01:37:28.739 --> 01:37:31.080
I'm thinking about how you started with

01:37:31.080 --> 01:37:33.600
John Lennon Bonnie

01:37:33.600 --> 01:37:36.239
and

01:37:36.239 --> 01:37:38.280
as I was listening to it it was almost

01:37:38.280 --> 01:37:39.719
like

01:37:39.719 --> 01:37:43.880
hearing it for the first time

01:37:44.699 --> 01:37:46.639
because I was

01:37:46.639 --> 01:37:50.040
sensing into what it has to do with what

01:37:50.040 --> 01:37:52.260
we're on about here

01:37:52.260 --> 01:37:55.199
and just uh

01:37:55.199 --> 01:37:58.500
you know the the radical nature of

01:37:58.500 --> 01:38:01.320
Imagine no country imagine know this

01:38:01.320 --> 01:38:06.000
imagine that like he's

01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:09.120
it's it's such a perfect

01:38:09.120 --> 01:38:12.300
theme song or especially for today's

01:38:12.300 --> 01:38:15.199
conversation

01:38:22.679 --> 01:38:24.480
and then the notion of making it

01:38:24.480 --> 01:38:25.980
practical

01:38:25.980 --> 01:38:28.440
you know I think you know that's maybe

01:38:28.440 --> 01:38:33.719
what's at stake is to to learn

01:38:33.719 --> 01:38:37.199
in in in in schools like this

01:38:37.199 --> 01:38:39.300
and then take action in the world

01:38:39.300 --> 01:38:42.900
somehow so yeah I love this notion of

01:38:42.900 --> 01:38:45.179
pragmatic

01:38:45.179 --> 01:38:47.219
imagination you know take the John

01:38:47.219 --> 01:38:49.739
Lennon song right

01:38:49.739 --> 01:38:54.320
um and make it real you know take action

01:38:58.560 --> 01:39:00.900
what's that line in the Beatles song

01:39:00.900 --> 01:39:02.110
okay

01:39:02.110 --> 01:39:04.100
[Music]

01:39:04.100 --> 01:39:07.020
take an imagination and make it real

01:39:07.020 --> 01:39:09.480
yeah so

01:39:09.480 --> 01:39:11.580
um I think you know

01:39:11.580 --> 01:39:13.739
the other thing we have to remember is

01:39:13.739 --> 01:39:15.179
these are deep

01:39:15.179 --> 01:39:16.800
deep

01:39:16.800 --> 01:39:19.320
aspects of The Human Condition it's

01:39:19.320 --> 01:39:22.020
happening anyways you know whether if

01:39:22.020 --> 01:39:23.820
you're at work and you're coding or

01:39:23.820 --> 01:39:26.100
you're making a sandwich

01:39:26.100 --> 01:39:28.380
um you're noticing significant objects

01:39:28.380 --> 01:39:30.900
you have small imagination you know I'm

01:39:30.900 --> 01:39:32.760
saying this is not possible it's not

01:39:32.760 --> 01:39:35.400
possible for it not to be happening it's

01:39:35.400 --> 01:39:37.320
the question of amplifying and

01:39:37.320 --> 01:39:40.080
augmenting it as a capacity because

01:39:40.080 --> 01:39:44.520
maybe that's that's what would afford US

01:39:44.520 --> 01:39:47.699
uh right now right so

01:39:47.699 --> 01:39:48.719
um

01:39:48.719 --> 01:39:50.820
um

01:39:50.820 --> 01:39:53.420
foreign

01:39:54.260 --> 01:39:57.060
forms you know if you get if you if if

01:39:57.060 --> 01:39:58.679
you're like me and you know you're such

01:39:58.679 --> 01:40:00.719
an observer of human nature you'll see

01:40:00.719 --> 01:40:02.400
it in

01:40:02.400 --> 01:40:06.120
um uh you know some some ways in which

01:40:06.120 --> 01:40:09.540
guys this is not very common anymore

01:40:09.540 --> 01:40:11.400
this is a whole I just realized it's a

01:40:11.400 --> 01:40:13.739
horrible example for the new world but

01:40:13.739 --> 01:40:16.020
guys working on their cars get

01:40:16.020 --> 01:40:19.860
completely absorbed sometimes into the

01:40:19.860 --> 01:40:23.100
mechanics and the feel of a nice tight

01:40:23.100 --> 01:40:26.760
you know loose soft but Loose like all

01:40:26.760 --> 01:40:29.760
this stuff these are all kinds of

01:40:29.760 --> 01:40:32.699
um imaginal absorptions

01:40:32.699 --> 01:40:34.260
um and

01:40:34.260 --> 01:40:37.679
um chefs like we see it we can see it as

01:40:37.679 --> 01:40:40.199
Talent when we see a chef or someone

01:40:40.199 --> 01:40:41.940
working

01:40:41.940 --> 01:40:44.760
um working that way

01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:45.719
um

01:40:45.719 --> 01:40:49.260
I used to also see it in um you know in

01:40:49.260 --> 01:40:52.020
my years of business uh

01:40:52.020 --> 01:40:54.360
um hiring bookkeepers

01:40:54.360 --> 01:40:55.440
um

01:40:55.440 --> 01:40:59.520
you you would look for there are some

01:40:59.520 --> 01:41:01.800
people when the two cents if they're

01:41:01.800 --> 01:41:03.719
bank accounts that didn't like just they

01:41:03.719 --> 01:41:05.940
just reconcile 11 million dollars of

01:41:05.940 --> 01:41:07.980
transactions they can't find the 32

01:41:07.980 --> 01:41:08.880
cents

01:41:08.880 --> 01:41:11.820
and they get absorbed into it now that's

01:41:11.820 --> 01:41:14.100
who you want to hire because for most

01:41:14.100 --> 01:41:16.320
people it's like it's just not it's just

01:41:16.320 --> 01:41:18.719
a nuisance and then just like

01:41:18.719 --> 01:41:21.120
you know and

01:41:21.120 --> 01:41:22.860
um and that's a kind of an absorption

01:41:22.860 --> 01:41:24.719
you know so

01:41:24.719 --> 01:41:26.280
so

01:41:26.280 --> 01:41:27.980
um

01:41:27.980 --> 01:41:29.659
understanding

01:41:29.659 --> 01:41:32.719
these things as as

01:41:32.719 --> 01:41:36.540
individual competencies also uh makes

01:41:36.540 --> 01:41:38.639
you notice

01:41:38.639 --> 01:41:40.760
um

01:41:41.880 --> 01:41:45.239
yeah you can observe the human

01:41:45.239 --> 01:41:47.639
uh condition

01:41:47.639 --> 01:41:49.760
um

01:41:50.100 --> 01:41:52.199
yeah like an archaeologist you know

01:41:52.199 --> 01:41:54.119
you're you're like

01:41:54.119 --> 01:41:56.179
um

01:42:02.639 --> 01:42:05.940
Bonnie I did a little experiment the

01:42:05.940 --> 01:42:07.619
other day with

01:42:07.619 --> 01:42:08.639
um

01:42:08.639 --> 01:42:10.980
I was getting really worked up about

01:42:10.980 --> 01:42:13.860
something and I I just

01:42:13.860 --> 01:42:16.080
did the what's it like to be me right

01:42:16.080 --> 01:42:17.280
now

01:42:17.280 --> 01:42:19.980
and just kind of kept following like

01:42:19.980 --> 01:42:21.840
it's like being in whole what's it like

01:42:21.840 --> 01:42:23.639
to be in a hole and then

01:42:23.639 --> 01:42:27.659
just the whole thing ended up

01:42:27.659 --> 01:42:30.480
it's like being in a Still Pond with the

01:42:30.480 --> 01:42:33.000
sunlight sparkling and I felt great it

01:42:33.000 --> 01:42:36.239
was like my dispositional state just

01:42:36.239 --> 01:42:38.580
transformed in like

01:42:38.580 --> 01:42:40.020
two seconds

01:42:40.020 --> 01:42:41.639
yeah big

01:42:41.639 --> 01:42:43.020
big in that it is

01:42:43.020 --> 01:42:47.119
people know it as clean language except

01:42:47.400 --> 01:42:51.239
is that you check you you disrupt the

01:42:51.239 --> 01:42:53.100
trigger mechanism of the narrative

01:42:53.100 --> 01:42:55.699
usually it must have come with a story

01:42:55.699 --> 01:43:00.300
and it's very important for people lean

01:43:00.300 --> 01:43:02.400
into the if it's an adjective the

01:43:02.400 --> 01:43:06.480
quality okay and then it's a noun

01:43:06.480 --> 01:43:09.260
um you're using so you're basically

01:43:09.260 --> 01:43:11.760
trans mute

01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:16.739
the energy by transferring it into a

01:43:16.739 --> 01:43:18.840
different path

01:43:18.840 --> 01:43:20.699
um and

01:43:20.699 --> 01:43:21.300
um

01:43:21.300 --> 01:43:24.540
and the narrative sequence which fuels

01:43:24.540 --> 01:43:27.060
these things it just not you're just not

01:43:27.060 --> 01:43:30.239
in that path so and it can be fun you

01:43:30.239 --> 01:43:32.880
know and you can surprise yourself like

01:43:32.880 --> 01:43:35.940
why did I say that you know and

01:43:35.940 --> 01:43:37.460
um

01:43:37.460 --> 01:43:41.780
it was totally fun and and

01:43:41.780 --> 01:43:44.580
so quickly

01:43:44.580 --> 01:43:48.119
shifted my dispositional state

01:43:48.119 --> 01:43:50.760
and it also can show you that your

01:43:50.760 --> 01:43:53.639
dispositional state will will can

01:43:53.639 --> 01:43:56.340
control a constrain what you can imagine

01:43:56.340 --> 01:43:58.080
right

01:43:58.080 --> 01:44:00.119
um and so

01:44:00.119 --> 01:44:01.320
um

01:44:01.320 --> 01:44:04.560
yeah I mean that it's certainly obvious

01:44:04.560 --> 01:44:08.940
for people who like even cooking like if

01:44:08.940 --> 01:44:12.060
I'm kind of like in a cranky mode I

01:44:12.060 --> 01:44:14.820
can't even like I I realize that the

01:44:14.820 --> 01:44:18.119
food doesn't come out good because

01:44:18.119 --> 01:44:20.940
I'm not imaginative about the way I put

01:44:20.940 --> 01:44:23.940
it together I just throw it in and get

01:44:23.940 --> 01:44:26.940
it done as fast as possible so

01:44:26.940 --> 01:44:29.520
um yeah that's a great story I'm glad

01:44:29.520 --> 01:44:34.820
you used it you know that it's so I mean

01:44:34.820 --> 01:44:37.560
kudos to you it's very hard to use the

01:44:37.560 --> 01:44:39.080
technology on yourself

01:44:39.080 --> 01:44:41.760
uh because

01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.219
you're in in the thing but you can see

01:44:44.219 --> 01:44:47.520
why it works on other people

01:44:47.520 --> 01:44:49.860
um because you're guiding them

01:44:49.860 --> 01:44:53.040
I had to write it I mean I had to like

01:44:53.040 --> 01:44:55.320
type it yeah you have to discipline

01:44:55.320 --> 01:44:58.260
yourself because part of you is like you

01:44:58.260 --> 01:45:01.739
swept away with the the trigger yeah

01:45:01.739 --> 01:45:05.940
um now you can hack this okay and the

01:45:05.940 --> 01:45:08.280
way you hack it and this is I can hear

01:45:08.280 --> 01:45:11.400
Claudia in this ear and maybe she's

01:45:11.400 --> 01:45:13.619
thinking of it but you did say it so

01:45:13.619 --> 01:45:16.219
maybe just because you've said it before

01:45:16.219 --> 01:45:20.280
so uh when you're triggered and you go

01:45:20.280 --> 01:45:22.380
out in nature and you just see where

01:45:22.380 --> 01:45:24.600
your eyes want to go it's doing the same

01:45:24.600 --> 01:45:27.600
thing oh this is like a piece of grass

01:45:27.600 --> 01:45:32.040
and it's like the and it it's following

01:45:32.040 --> 01:45:34.980
um where where your eyes are going are

01:45:34.980 --> 01:45:37.320
setting the same kind of

01:45:37.320 --> 01:45:40.560
path that distinguistic sequence does do

01:45:40.560 --> 01:45:41.820
you know what I'm saying

01:45:41.820 --> 01:45:44.880
like you go in and you look at Mud and

01:45:44.880 --> 01:45:47.280
you think I feel like you're not saying

01:45:47.280 --> 01:45:49.080
it but you're kind of and then the next

01:45:49.080 --> 01:45:50.760
thing you know their butterfly comes out

01:45:50.760 --> 01:45:52.320
of the mud and you've turned into oh

01:45:52.320 --> 01:45:54.600
it's like a butterfly and pretty soon

01:45:54.600 --> 01:45:56.880
you lost the thread so that's how you

01:45:56.880 --> 01:46:00.840
can use we used imaginative virtual

01:46:00.840 --> 01:46:02.699
perception

01:46:02.699 --> 01:46:05.760
um but you can go out in nature let your

01:46:05.760 --> 01:46:08.219
eyes and your external perception wander

01:46:08.219 --> 01:46:11.639
and it's a kind of clean language it's

01:46:11.639 --> 01:46:15.300
the same thing that nature does

01:46:15.300 --> 01:46:18.000
it so it requires less discipline it

01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:20.520
just requires you getting out and and

01:46:20.520 --> 01:46:23.340
well and and kind of relaxing your head

01:46:23.340 --> 01:46:27.960
but the other methodology is is is using

01:46:27.960 --> 01:46:32.159
it through linguistic prompts

01:46:32.159 --> 01:46:34.080
um

01:46:34.080 --> 01:46:36.780
and now you understand why it works why

01:46:36.780 --> 01:46:39.480
I say if you get an adjective when you

01:46:39.480 --> 01:46:42.420
get a noun now you're this is very

01:46:42.420 --> 01:46:46.340
important in the gestures are usually

01:46:46.340 --> 01:46:49.380
are too slippery you're basically

01:46:49.380 --> 01:46:52.080
looking for nouns because it grounds the

01:46:52.080 --> 01:46:55.020
experience and now what is it like to be

01:46:55.020 --> 01:46:58.139
a butterfly oh I forgot it's all about

01:46:58.139 --> 01:46:59.460
me like

01:46:59.460 --> 01:47:01.020
it's not about me at all I'm trying to

01:47:01.020 --> 01:47:02.100
figure out what it's like to be a

01:47:02.100 --> 01:47:04.199
butterfly so

01:47:04.199 --> 01:47:07.080
um yeah so that that that's a cool

01:47:07.080 --> 01:47:09.840
little uh methodology and we can

01:47:09.840 --> 01:47:13.040
understand why it works

01:47:20.340 --> 01:47:24.179
I use the um uh whenever that happens to

01:47:24.179 --> 01:47:25.440
me

01:47:25.440 --> 01:47:28.560
um I I use the I go out in nature and I

01:47:28.560 --> 01:47:31.940
use the eye gaze

01:47:32.219 --> 01:47:36.119
um pretty I'm pretty uh

01:47:36.119 --> 01:47:39.659
pretty used to having that completely uh

01:47:39.659 --> 01:47:41.400
disrupt the

01:47:41.400 --> 01:47:44.159
narrative sequence the story uh for me

01:47:44.159 --> 01:47:47.280
I've used it a lot for a lot

01:47:47.280 --> 01:47:49.380
um I know Claudia already used it like

01:47:49.380 --> 01:47:51.239
she figured it out

01:47:51.239 --> 01:47:51.960
um

01:47:51.960 --> 01:47:54.119
that's probably the most minimalist

01:47:54.119 --> 01:47:57.480
appointment uh

01:47:57.480 --> 01:48:00.600
approach but they're all all very

01:48:00.600 --> 01:48:03.020
similar

01:48:07.560 --> 01:48:09.300
this is great like we're putting all

01:48:09.300 --> 01:48:12.780
this stuff together

01:48:14.159 --> 01:48:16.320
what did you mean the eye case the the

01:48:16.320 --> 01:48:18.960
four posture meditation thing yeah the

01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:21.840
open straight eye guys I got nature and

01:48:21.840 --> 01:48:24.080
I

01:48:24.239 --> 01:48:27.540
and it disrupts the thought and then

01:48:27.540 --> 01:48:30.000
pretty soon I'm noticing this noticing

01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:32.040
that noticing this

01:48:32.040 --> 01:48:35.400
um but I've used that for a a lot a long

01:48:35.400 --> 01:48:37.440
time and you know different things work

01:48:37.440 --> 01:48:40.199
for different people or faster for

01:48:40.199 --> 01:48:42.719
different people uh what Sandra just

01:48:42.719 --> 01:48:45.060
described is actually like she said it's

01:48:45.060 --> 01:48:47.760
quite hard for a person to do on the but

01:48:47.760 --> 01:48:50.880
on their on themselves

01:48:50.880 --> 01:48:52.940
um

01:48:53.040 --> 01:48:56.100
um but it's it's much it's a good

01:48:56.100 --> 01:48:59.580
technology to do with

01:48:59.580 --> 01:49:02.100
with other people

01:49:02.100 --> 01:49:04.219
um

01:49:05.940 --> 01:49:08.159
and it actually and if you think about

01:49:08.159 --> 01:49:11.280
it it inter it interrupts the imaginal

01:49:11.280 --> 01:49:14.400
in a certain way it it

01:49:14.400 --> 01:49:16.500
um so when you're going in a narrative

01:49:16.500 --> 01:49:18.659
and you get absorbed by this whole thing

01:49:18.659 --> 01:49:21.060
you know it interrupts that and it asks

01:49:21.060 --> 01:49:22.639
you to

01:49:22.639 --> 01:49:25.320
work with empathic projection on

01:49:25.320 --> 01:49:28.940
different objects and stuff so

01:49:32.790 --> 01:49:36.260
[Music]

01:49:37.100 --> 01:49:40.020
we need to start like a therapeutic

01:49:40.020 --> 01:49:42.380
program

01:49:43.920 --> 01:49:48.060
just just on minimal on minimal postures

01:49:48.060 --> 01:49:48.719
um

01:49:48.719 --> 01:49:50.699
yesterday on the tennis court I found

01:49:50.699 --> 01:49:52.980
you know and I wasn't in the panic and I

01:49:52.980 --> 01:49:55.500
wasn't in some kind of deep anxiety but

01:49:55.500 --> 01:49:56.760
you know a little bit kind of annoyed

01:49:56.760 --> 01:49:59.100
about the previous shot let's say and I

01:49:59.100 --> 01:50:00.719
found that all I had to do was just open

01:50:00.719 --> 01:50:03.600
my eyes and almost take it from a slight

01:50:03.600 --> 01:50:06.179
slight kind of frown let's say or a clip

01:50:06.179 --> 01:50:08.699
just an open

01:50:08.699 --> 01:50:11.520
um and particularly on the receiving of

01:50:11.520 --> 01:50:13.320
serve because it's like an open and then

01:50:13.320 --> 01:50:14.880
then look at the ball

01:50:14.880 --> 01:50:17.940
and that felt really minimal and it kind

01:50:17.940 --> 01:50:19.980
of worked yesterday I haven't this is

01:50:19.980 --> 01:50:23.699
what I mean like people literally don't

01:50:23.699 --> 01:50:25.260
use their eyes

01:50:25.260 --> 01:50:29.460
you know we were with uh Ray who you

01:50:29.460 --> 01:50:31.080
know from the public school read the

01:50:31.080 --> 01:50:32.940
couple we rode his house the other day

01:50:32.940 --> 01:50:34.739
you know he's been teaching art for a

01:50:34.739 --> 01:50:36.840
long time and we were setting up some

01:50:36.840 --> 01:50:40.679
filming and he was looking

01:50:40.679 --> 01:50:43.080
at the you know the screen on the

01:50:43.080 --> 01:50:45.540
cameras it was looking intensively and

01:50:45.540 --> 01:50:48.480
I'm like you use your eyes too much you

01:50:48.480 --> 01:50:50.280
know because it we could we were

01:50:50.280 --> 01:50:52.980
witnessing how someone who really uses

01:50:52.980 --> 01:50:56.470
their eyes you know and it's and and

01:50:56.470 --> 01:50:57.719
[Music]

01:50:57.719 --> 01:51:01.199
like I hate to say this is so sad it

01:51:01.199 --> 01:51:03.560
makes me so you go into a classroom

01:51:03.560 --> 01:51:06.000
they're taught not to use their eyes

01:51:06.000 --> 01:51:10.320
like literally we were amputating the

01:51:10.320 --> 01:51:12.900
organs of perception or like literally

01:51:12.900 --> 01:51:18.780
this is not an imagination and so

01:51:18.780 --> 01:51:22.500
um it's really bad it's really bad and

01:51:22.500 --> 01:51:25.560
like this is why John traviki's after

01:51:25.560 --> 01:51:28.679
Socrates makes me really mad it's

01:51:28.679 --> 01:51:31.679
literally telling them don't use your

01:51:31.679 --> 01:51:35.340
eyes use this like whatever it's it's

01:51:35.340 --> 01:51:38.219
really bad

01:51:38.219 --> 01:51:41.760
and then he does introduce Merlot Ponte

01:51:41.760 --> 01:51:45.060
and he uses him as a metaphor Merlot

01:51:45.060 --> 01:51:48.300
Ponte was like no it is the body it's

01:51:48.300 --> 01:51:52.020
not like a body like

01:51:52.020 --> 01:51:55.080
um it's really sad it's really really

01:51:55.080 --> 01:52:00.239
sad uh for me that's you know

01:52:00.239 --> 01:52:01.560
um

01:52:01.560 --> 01:52:04.860
and children are easy to say you know

01:52:04.860 --> 01:52:07.139
teach them to open their eyes it's hard

01:52:07.139 --> 01:52:10.260
to convince an adult that that's a

01:52:10.260 --> 01:52:12.719
meaningful thing like in the complex

01:52:12.719 --> 01:52:14.760
world we live in

01:52:14.760 --> 01:52:16.040
um but if we could

01:52:16.040 --> 01:52:19.619
change this early childhood stuff is

01:52:19.619 --> 01:52:22.260
it's much easier for children you know

01:52:22.260 --> 01:52:24.659
but we're actually

01:52:24.659 --> 01:52:28.199
condition them away from reality

01:52:28.199 --> 01:52:29.820
and then they get on social media and

01:52:29.820 --> 01:52:33.000
they get absorbed they did they don't

01:52:33.000 --> 01:52:34.679
they don't

01:52:34.679 --> 01:52:36.360
it's not real

01:52:36.360 --> 01:52:40.460
and it's not in their best interests

01:52:42.600 --> 01:52:45.900
okay very good question I liked it

01:52:45.900 --> 01:52:48.900
because we got we still get pragmatic

01:52:48.900 --> 01:52:49.739
um

01:52:49.739 --> 01:52:52.260
and it'll be a really good video for

01:52:52.260 --> 01:52:54.300
people so thank you all for the great

01:52:54.300 --> 01:52:57.540
questions the great examples uh

01:52:57.540 --> 01:52:58.920
and

01:52:58.920 --> 01:53:00.920
um

01:53:01.380 --> 01:53:04.560
see you maybe next time or one more one

01:53:04.560 --> 01:53:10.020
more session and uh we'll move on to uh

01:53:10.020 --> 01:53:12.360
an interesting module

01:53:12.360 --> 01:53:13.380
um

01:53:13.380 --> 01:53:15.719
but maybe we'll all talk about that uh

01:53:15.719 --> 01:53:20.580
on on Thursday uh Friday okay thank you

01:53:20.580 --> 01:53:23.840
very much enjoy your day

## Cohort 6

00:00:00.420 --> 00:00:02.719
foreign

00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:06.960
I imagine you're all very excited

00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:10.490
for this oh I gotta put my ears

00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:13.529
[Music]

00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:22.020
when's the playlist coming out

00:00:22.020 --> 00:00:26.060
I'll put it in at the end of the year

00:00:30.900 --> 00:00:32.540
we'll be we're gonna go into

00:00:32.540 --> 00:00:36.380
representational thinking

00:00:36.540 --> 00:00:39.480
and the justification system next I have

00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:43.500
to find some I have to find some

00:00:43.500 --> 00:00:45.420
that

00:00:45.420 --> 00:00:46.440
um

00:00:46.440 --> 00:00:47.460
okay

00:00:47.460 --> 00:00:49.680
uh let's start with do we have any

00:00:49.680 --> 00:00:51.539
questions we have some good questions

00:00:51.539 --> 00:00:53.760
last time

00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:55.920
um I do have a little I do have some new

00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.079
material that we're going to consider

00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:00.120
today

00:01:00.120 --> 00:01:02.239
um

00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:04.559
um

00:01:04.559 --> 00:01:07.140
I also had an exercise but I think it's

00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:09.840
too hard it's a really hard exercise and

00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:11.760
I can I think it would be a distraction

00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:13.260
so

00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:15.000
um yeah so let's see do we have any

00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.340
questions last time Dave had a great

00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:18.720
question in terms of the difference

00:01:18.720 --> 00:01:21.659
between imagination intuition and then

00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:23.939
the imaginal

00:01:23.939 --> 00:01:25.560
um

00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:27.780
um we could go over that again if we

00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:29.159
need to

00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:29.820
um

00:01:29.820 --> 00:01:32.400
and then and then I'll uh we talked

00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:35.100
about pragmatic imagination

00:01:35.100 --> 00:01:37.259
um and we could talk a little more about

00:01:37.259 --> 00:01:39.720
that and then I have a little bit of

00:01:39.720 --> 00:01:41.880
stuff from

00:01:41.880 --> 00:01:42.720
um

00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:45.060
uh genuine

00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:47.119
um

00:01:47.180 --> 00:01:51.240
how genuine uses the imagination

00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:53.220
um because there's a lot of people

00:01:53.220 --> 00:01:55.740
practicing focusing but

00:01:55.740 --> 00:01:58.259
um you know there are some distinctions

00:01:58.259 --> 00:02:01.259
to be made in terms of like

00:02:01.259 --> 00:02:05.040
um being being true to his

00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.920
his methodology let's say

00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.020
um and talking again about the felt

00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:11.940
sense and stuff like that so that's and

00:02:11.940 --> 00:02:15.300
then I have a little treat

00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:16.379
um

00:02:16.379 --> 00:02:20.580
that keep keep aside until uh we get all

00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:23.280
the preliminaries uh

00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.200
done

00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:27.180
um yeah so

00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:29.520
that's what what's cooking in the

00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:31.379
kitchen

00:02:31.379 --> 00:02:33.420
you see how I said that it made sense to

00:02:33.420 --> 00:02:35.640
you right that's synesthesia metaphoric

00:02:35.640 --> 00:02:36.780
blending

00:02:36.780 --> 00:02:38.879
come on you completely understood it

00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:40.990
wasn't literal

00:02:40.990 --> 00:02:48.250
[Music]

00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.080
uh except I have had you make treats

00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:00.660
before I've enjoyed them so there's uh

00:03:00.660 --> 00:03:03.360
there's something real about that

00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.500
metaphor for me

00:03:07.019 --> 00:03:09.140
um

00:03:09.300 --> 00:03:12.620
so kidding aside

00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:18.200
um I'm most interested in

00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.920
how we can use

00:03:24.920 --> 00:03:30.680
and Pendleton Julian's construct around

00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.019
pragmatic imagination

00:03:34.019 --> 00:03:36.959
you kind of dropped it in it kind of

00:03:36.959 --> 00:03:40.799
floated in accidentally and

00:03:40.799 --> 00:03:43.340
um I've

00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:47.519
Googled her watched a little bit and I

00:03:47.519 --> 00:03:50.760
think it's really important for a new

00:03:50.760 --> 00:03:53.640
theory of the body

00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:57.060
what I think is most important

00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:00.680
is this idea of

00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:04.620
everything coming together

00:04:04.620 --> 00:04:08.420
in the arousal state

00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.620
you know not not like you know these

00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:17.280
these ideas that thinking Ain't So Good

00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:20.699
well we think you know I mean that's

00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:22.380
part of it all

00:04:22.380 --> 00:04:24.540
you know

00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:27.419
so anyway that's that's where my

00:04:27.419 --> 00:04:30.900
interest uh is

00:04:30.900 --> 00:04:33.120
yeah we'll talk a little bit about it

00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:34.979
but I also think it's very important and

00:04:34.979 --> 00:04:37.620
I do have a series of essays coming out

00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:39.240
on

00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:41.280
um I think she's got it in four parts

00:04:41.280 --> 00:04:43.440
and I think it comes out in four parts I

00:04:43.440 --> 00:04:46.620
gotta get over this this this this just

00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:49.680
before Socrates thing first

00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:50.699
um

00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:54.479
um but it's it's it's

00:04:54.479 --> 00:04:56.759
um comprehensive enough and she's she's

00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:59.400
got it laid out kind of like bullet-like

00:04:59.400 --> 00:05:01.440
so it makes it make for a good essay

00:05:01.440 --> 00:05:03.360
series you know

00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:06.419
um so they're all there in drafts

00:05:06.419 --> 00:05:08.520
um but let's but I think it's a very

00:05:08.520 --> 00:05:11.040
good question and

00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:13.320
um there's so much

00:05:13.320 --> 00:05:16.680
what I'm going to do is is is use what

00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.800
she's talking about and overlay it with

00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.199
the kinds of you know she doesn't really

00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:25.139
do phenomenology or or you know micro

00:05:25.139 --> 00:05:28.440
phenomenology and I want to show that

00:05:28.440 --> 00:05:30.600
she's actually working with stages of

00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.820
the phenomenology when she's working

00:05:32.820 --> 00:05:36.539
with pragmatic uh imagination so

00:05:36.539 --> 00:05:38.100
um

00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:39.120
um

00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:43.380
but for me that's that's

00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:45.440
um

00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.680
what I'm what I'm I might just go into

00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:54.060
what I was going to say because I'll

00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:56.580
show you how I'm going to map it over

00:05:56.580 --> 00:05:58.199
um but a big part of what we're talking

00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.440
about that's very pertinent today in her

00:06:01.440 --> 00:06:06.259
pragmatic imagination is you have to un

00:06:06.259 --> 00:06:10.020
Unbound it's called design Unbound

00:06:10.020 --> 00:06:13.620
um so you she wants to Unbound your

00:06:13.620 --> 00:06:15.960
imagination in a certain sense but also

00:06:15.960 --> 00:06:19.500
make it pragmatic and

00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:21.419
um the possibility for it being

00:06:21.419 --> 00:06:24.960
pragmatic is being in touch with you

00:06:24.960 --> 00:06:26.639
know what matters to you if it matters

00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:28.139
to you

00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:29.060
um

00:06:29.060 --> 00:06:34.380
then as you release your imagination

00:06:34.380 --> 00:06:36.960
um it should somehow

00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:40.860
um just like memory satisfies a present

00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:41.720
um

00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:45.539
situation your imagination should uh

00:06:45.539 --> 00:06:47.699
even though it's non-linear goes in all

00:06:47.699 --> 00:06:50.819
different ways if you can stay with the

00:06:50.819 --> 00:06:52.380
goal

00:06:52.380 --> 00:06:55.380
um then it should satisfy

00:06:55.380 --> 00:06:59.580
um that initial arousal state so

00:06:59.580 --> 00:07:01.740
um so that's what makes it pragmatic and

00:07:01.740 --> 00:07:04.500
yet it's Unbound at the same time so

00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:07.139
these are her she's trying to show how

00:07:07.139 --> 00:07:09.479
you can

00:07:09.479 --> 00:07:13.259
um be more imaginative and yet have it

00:07:13.259 --> 00:07:16.919
lead to practical application at this at

00:07:16.919 --> 00:07:18.840
the same time

00:07:18.840 --> 00:07:21.680
um so she

00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.199
works with for example and I know I said

00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.539
this the other day but just to reiterate

00:07:27.539 --> 00:07:30.720
she works with things called significant

00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.699
objects

00:07:32.699 --> 00:07:37.199
um and you might have picked up

00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.259
um oh we did this you know when you came

00:07:40.259 --> 00:07:42.840
over my house and Ray took that piece of

00:07:42.840 --> 00:07:46.199
bark over off the tree

00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:48.660
but remember that

00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:50.940
but I had all those dead trees and then

00:07:50.940 --> 00:07:52.259
you could peel the bark and you could

00:07:52.259 --> 00:07:54.360
see those patterns well for some reason

00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:57.000
it becomes a significant object like it

00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:59.039
captures what do we say it captures your

00:07:59.039 --> 00:08:01.860
imagination just by perceiving it you

00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:04.560
haven't made up a story yet or something

00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.660
but there's some kind of one-on-one

00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:08.400
correspondence with something that's

00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:11.520
living in you and what your pers and

00:08:11.520 --> 00:08:14.280
that your perception is like wow that's

00:08:14.280 --> 00:08:16.680
really interesting you know

00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.440
um and so a lot of the power of what she

00:08:19.440 --> 00:08:21.919
works with it are these things called

00:08:21.919 --> 00:08:24.180
significant objects

00:08:24.180 --> 00:08:27.240
um so like look at the the graphic

00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.539
painting uh behind Anna except that's

00:08:30.539 --> 00:08:32.760
like a significant object I'm not sure

00:08:32.760 --> 00:08:35.820
if it's it's actually a deer's head or

00:08:35.820 --> 00:08:39.599
not but it's like what you know the way

00:08:39.599 --> 00:08:45.240
you uh yeah the way you can notice

00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.959
in the in the perceptual field or if

00:08:48.959 --> 00:08:51.060
you're a drawer you draw all kinds of

00:08:51.060 --> 00:08:55.680
things and then you wonder like you know

00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:58.500
what is trying to merge let's say you

00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:01.320
know it's inherently non-dialogic which

00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.360
is what I like about it

00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:04.980
um because once you get into these

00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:06.899
practices

00:09:06.899 --> 00:09:09.540
it's very hard for people to be in

00:09:09.540 --> 00:09:12.680
biological space which is social space

00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:17.279
conceptual space and still stay close

00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:21.180
for long enough to the original impulse

00:09:21.180 --> 00:09:23.640
you know and so

00:09:23.640 --> 00:09:25.560
um this is

00:09:25.560 --> 00:09:28.200
closer to the bone bone in some sense

00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:32.700
you know you can see this uh with Ria

00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:34.920
Bach when she does

00:09:34.920 --> 00:09:37.560
every time I've seen her in Collective

00:09:37.560 --> 00:09:41.100
presence and she she's always doodling

00:09:41.100 --> 00:09:43.800
and somehow that's making that's making

00:09:43.800 --> 00:09:46.680
some sense to her you know so

00:09:46.680 --> 00:09:50.180
um yeah so

00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.920
it represents it's it's it's that course

00:09:55.920 --> 00:09:58.260
in aesthetic right so you're using your

00:09:58.260 --> 00:10:00.720
perception to Unbound your imagination

00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.300
but then it's pragmatic so it needs to

00:10:03.300 --> 00:10:07.260
lead to action and experimentation but

00:10:07.260 --> 00:10:09.480
this notion that

00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:11.700
um you have to move from sense making

00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:15.000
because you to sense breaking and you

00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.700
have to be able to live

00:10:16.700 --> 00:10:21.060
in that sense breaking mode

00:10:21.060 --> 00:10:23.339
um in order to

00:10:23.339 --> 00:10:25.740
exit

00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:29.339
um this the stable composition of

00:10:29.339 --> 00:10:31.980
previous thought let's say

00:10:31.980 --> 00:10:34.200
um and I thought that was interesting

00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.620
because a lot of you know the videos we

00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:39.779
watch and everything is all about the

00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:41.700
sense making crisis

00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:43.320
and

00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.920
one could actually sense or see or

00:10:46.920 --> 00:10:49.320
interpret that as

00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:53.040
what humans do when when they need new

00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:55.800
systems they forego though they're not

00:10:55.800 --> 00:10:58.200
you know we stubbornly keep to the old

00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.180
forms of sense making but on the other

00:11:00.180 --> 00:11:01.500
hand

00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:04.440
the crisis is that we know that we're

00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.300
letting them go too you know like

00:11:06.300 --> 00:11:09.300
there's it happens anyway

00:11:09.300 --> 00:11:11.100
um so

00:11:11.100 --> 00:11:12.959
so

00:11:12.959 --> 00:11:15.480
um one could

00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:16.339
um

00:11:16.339 --> 00:11:19.320
interpret that as

00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.959
collectively the species knows what what

00:11:21.959 --> 00:11:23.940
what it needs to do and that is to let

00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:27.120
go the old sense making and then so it's

00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:31.500
not so much of a crisis as a actually an

00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:34.800
important adequate response

00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:36.899
um so

00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:39.480
um so there's something about that and I

00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.180
and I like it because

00:11:41.180 --> 00:11:43.740
when you use your imagination there's

00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.380
always a leap and the leap between I

00:11:46.380 --> 00:11:47.940
gotta hold on the world doesn't make

00:11:47.940 --> 00:11:50.100
sense to like

00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:53.399
um we're in those periods where

00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.880
it you know we need to sense break and

00:11:56.880 --> 00:11:58.800
recompose

00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:01.380
um yeah that that's this natural human

00:12:01.380 --> 00:12:03.300
evolutionary thing it's something the

00:12:03.300 --> 00:12:06.540
Mind knows how to do it we surf the Edge

00:12:06.540 --> 00:12:09.000
of Insanity we've done that many times

00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.000
in the past before this is kind of you

00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:13.560
know we talked about the Psychedelic

00:12:13.560 --> 00:12:16.380
self it's a feature not a bug

00:12:16.380 --> 00:12:19.800
um and so uh yeah so it has to do with

00:12:19.800 --> 00:12:23.279
that too the Psychedelic self that that

00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:27.120
um it's a feature not a bug uh so that

00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.820
we're metastable and we have the ability

00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:31.500
to

00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:35.579
um linger at the edges of insanity in

00:12:35.579 --> 00:12:38.779
order to break

00:12:38.779 --> 00:12:43.019
with you know we we make so we get so

00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:45.000
embedded in structures because we make

00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.880
so many structures societal beliefs and

00:12:47.880 --> 00:12:50.579
the infrastructure and the social system

00:12:50.579 --> 00:12:54.540
and the capitalism we end up you know

00:12:54.540 --> 00:12:56.040
being like

00:12:56.040 --> 00:12:58.740
I can't remember the name of the worm is

00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:02.279
there's a worm that lives at the bottom

00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:04.920
of ponds and he sticks all these little

00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:07.079
stones and stuff to him makes a little

00:13:07.079 --> 00:13:08.040
like

00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:10.920
structure around it you know we're kind

00:13:10.920 --> 00:13:13.800
of like uh

00:13:13.800 --> 00:13:16.620
we're really good at building fortresses

00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:19.260
around our social systems and so then we

00:13:19.260 --> 00:13:24.060
have to suffer uh the crisis when when

00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:26.160
the walls come tumbling down so if we

00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:28.279
lived in a much more fluid environment

00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:30.899
uh where every day you had to go out and

00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:33.480
Hunt and Gather your food then when

00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.000
you're home at night and there's no food

00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:37.800
in the pantry you're not worried because

00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:39.480
you're just used to getting up when

00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.180
you're hungry and go get some food

00:13:42.180 --> 00:13:45.120
um but we start systematizing these

00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.220
things and

00:13:46.220 --> 00:13:49.500
yeah and don't think that we can switch

00:13:49.500 --> 00:13:53.339
into it a gear which is more flexible

00:13:53.339 --> 00:13:55.800
and fluid so

00:13:55.800 --> 00:13:59.220
um yeah so she draws on a lot of that

00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:00.079
um

00:14:00.079 --> 00:14:02.040
and

00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:02.940
um

00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:06.420
we're gonna use so so we're not going to

00:14:06.420 --> 00:14:09.060
really do better than her so I'm just

00:14:09.060 --> 00:14:10.920
going to write that series of essays

00:14:10.920 --> 00:14:13.139
where it's going to come back in our new

00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:14.660
theory of the body

00:14:14.660 --> 00:14:18.000
is the moral animal and we're going to

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.940
work with Johnson and Le Cox notion of

00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:23.700
the moral imagination

00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:25.620
um and

00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:27.600
um

00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.240
and then and then

00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.639
the notion of ontological design you

00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.760
know so to build a built environment

00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:40.139
based upon a moral imagination such that

00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:41.820
people who grow up in that built

00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:44.220
environment have a hunch the world is

00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:45.380
this way

00:14:45.380 --> 00:14:48.480
and then they just grow up go up like

00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.120
that so

00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.300
um but in that building of the built

00:14:54.300 --> 00:14:57.060
environment that's where her work on you

00:14:57.060 --> 00:15:00.779
know design and bound comes comes from

00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:03.899
um yeah

00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.560
so

00:15:13.970 --> 00:15:17.040
[Music]

00:15:17.040 --> 00:15:19.260
I don't know if you want to continue on

00:15:19.260 --> 00:15:22.279
this track but

00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.079
excuse me

00:15:25.079 --> 00:15:28.560
what I'm thinking about

00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:31.519
are

00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:35.459
the collective unfolding from yesterday

00:15:35.459 --> 00:15:37.920
with EVO

00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:42.720
and her mapping on top of what we've

00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.320
looked at

00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.120
the sage Hood

00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:52.399
mapping so in particular speculation of

00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:56.959
experiment and play

00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:01.139
so for me this week

00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:06.720
play has taken on a new definition

00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.760
to me

00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:12.060
this interchange with you

00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:14.959
is play

00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:22.800
and it seems to me sitting here now

00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:25.920
that a doorway

00:16:25.920 --> 00:16:30.060
to pragmatic imagination

00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:35.180
is simply sharing with another human

00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:43.800
when my imagination can be felt by you

00:16:43.800 --> 00:16:47.339
and reflected back to me it becomes

00:16:47.339 --> 00:16:52.579
pragmatic maybe even useful

00:16:54.060 --> 00:16:56.399
I don't know where I'm going right now

00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:58.800
but that's where I'm at

00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:01.259
with with that mapping I think her

00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:03.959
mapping is you know there's actually

00:17:03.959 --> 00:17:07.740
five stages of money but okay yeah yeah

00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.419
um because it's a it's the same you know

00:17:09.419 --> 00:17:13.760
perception reasoning yeah speculation

00:17:13.760 --> 00:17:18.240
experiment and play yeah I mean it's so

00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.520
close to what we've been talking about

00:17:20.520 --> 00:17:24.260
it really is it's a turn on for me yeah

00:17:24.260 --> 00:17:27.380
you know

00:17:27.540 --> 00:17:30.960
and so what we like about it is that

00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.640
it's close to what we're talking about

00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.559
and what we're talking about is what

00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.280
animals do and so again this constantly

00:17:38.280 --> 00:17:41.039
goes why you can trust imagination is

00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.679
because it's what animals do which means

00:17:43.679 --> 00:17:46.080
it's what nature does which means it's

00:17:46.080 --> 00:17:48.360
embedded in the real

00:17:48.360 --> 00:17:50.280
um now of course there are guidelines

00:17:50.280 --> 00:17:53.480
and we're assessing out like

00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.280
when we get into trouble and the things

00:17:56.280 --> 00:17:59.580
running on kind of like hyper Loop or

00:17:59.580 --> 00:18:00.840
something

00:18:00.840 --> 00:18:02.520
um but

00:18:02.520 --> 00:18:04.919
um yeah

00:18:04.919 --> 00:18:07.140
um yeah you know I'm all confused

00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:10.260
because I did the E I did the Ian McGill

00:18:10.260 --> 00:18:12.660
Christ I did the stowaway thing then I

00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:15.960
did Evo and then and then like my mind

00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:20.220
is just it's just so porous now but with

00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:22.740
EVO it's certainly like that we are on

00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.980
to an idea we have no no idea whether

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:28.260
it's useful or not

00:18:28.260 --> 00:18:32.280
um but you know he's very conceptual and

00:18:32.280 --> 00:18:35.820
um and it's fun and we see all these

00:18:35.820 --> 00:18:38.520
synergies and we're writing it together

00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:40.260
and

00:18:40.260 --> 00:18:43.140
um it's so it's very imaginal in this in

00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:45.179
the sense that

00:18:45.179 --> 00:18:46.380
um

00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:48.179
um

00:18:48.179 --> 00:18:49.140
um

00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:51.299
you know we feel like we're on to

00:18:51.299 --> 00:18:52.200
something

00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:53.700
um but we also know we have to create

00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:57.600
the linkages and and

00:18:57.600 --> 00:19:00.679
um but it's different than

00:19:00.679 --> 00:19:03.120
systematically and rationally trying to

00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:04.799
solve a problem

00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:07.020
we're trying to create a tool that may

00:19:07.020 --> 00:19:08.100
be useful

00:19:08.100 --> 00:19:10.919
across a broad swath of problems but we

00:19:10.919 --> 00:19:14.400
have no idea if it'll be useful right so

00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.320
there's a very

00:19:16.320 --> 00:19:17.360
um

00:19:17.360 --> 00:19:20.640
that's why I cautioned people during my

00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.980
conversation with EVO not to pay too

00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:24.799
much attention to

00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.660
exactly because the concepts are not

00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:28.919
threaded

00:19:28.919 --> 00:19:30.900
they're not like well this happens and

00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:32.460
then I haven't we got it all worked out

00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:35.160
like Wilbur it's not it's not

00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.059
but in in that stage yet you know or

00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:43.980
that phase and to notice so yeah so and

00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:45.900
that and it was really good because I

00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:48.720
Eva was very he can get very uh

00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.360
introverted so you notice at the

00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:53.700
beginning he asked me to more like hold

00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:55.860
you know talk a lot and then he got on

00:19:55.860 --> 00:19:57.840
you know like when he talks to me and he

00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:01.020
gets on a flow so it was nice to see him

00:20:01.020 --> 00:20:03.620
just being able to go on and on and on

00:20:03.620 --> 00:20:07.919
uh how about halfway through so uh I

00:20:07.919 --> 00:20:10.940
felt that it achieved it achieved that

00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:15.440
uh that goal too so

00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:17.660
um

00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:21.840
what is his problem

00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:25.980
um so it sounds like I left the

00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:28.320
conversation yesterday just as you were

00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:31.260
you were getting going and that's and

00:20:31.260 --> 00:20:34.620
and I haven't finished Evo's uh piece

00:20:34.620 --> 00:20:37.679
and so this idea that you're on about

00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:39.720
I'm wondering if you could kind of

00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.880
unpack that and say a little more about

00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.179
it

00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:46.860
um it's the same as in the school in the

00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:49.559
course and that is we in the course

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.679
we're going to look at uh in in the

00:20:52.679 --> 00:20:54.840
beginning of the course

00:20:54.840 --> 00:20:55.919
um

00:20:55.919 --> 00:20:57.840
he you know he he reads everything and

00:20:57.840 --> 00:21:00.660
of course he's my editor is why my my

00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:05.160
typos have been reduced but

00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:08.160
um uh

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.559
so it's this theory of action protocols

00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.080
habitat and habitats it's actually

00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:15.360
something that can

00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:16.080
um

00:21:16.080 --> 00:21:17.880
this is what we're working on we didn't

00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:19.679
talk a lot about it yesterday we we

00:21:19.679 --> 00:21:21.840
wanted to see the space with the term

00:21:21.840 --> 00:21:25.440
but it's which was we're seeing that it

00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.340
has

00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:29.700
a lot a very potentially has a big

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:31.980
contribution to make the Michael Evans

00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.620
work and we're going to try to write a

00:21:34.620 --> 00:21:37.260
monograph uh that he might be interested

00:21:37.260 --> 00:21:40.020
in because Michael Levin he hangs out

00:21:40.020 --> 00:21:42.480
with these

00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.480
foreign

00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:52.140
he actively seeks out people in the

00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:54.059
spiritual communities and the

00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:55.799
Consciousness community and the

00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:57.840
psychology communities because he's

00:21:57.840 --> 00:22:00.780
looking for a paradigm a new paradigm of

00:22:00.780 --> 00:22:02.460
cognition

00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:06.720
um he's got he and and he's he's you

00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.140
know he had if he had one he'd have uh

00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.020
articulated it by now and so we feel

00:22:13.020 --> 00:22:14.460
that

00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:17.460
um yeah we can we can we can dial in

00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:20.340
that and that will integrate many many

00:22:20.340 --> 00:22:22.320
theories and models across science

00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:23.780
psychology

00:22:23.780 --> 00:22:27.299
phenomenology theory of the body

00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:31.260
um so it's a ambitious project

00:22:31.260 --> 00:22:32.940
um but

00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:35.460
what makes it much less ambitious is

00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:37.799
that it's playful we don't have to prove

00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.080
anything it doesn't have to work in the

00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:42.600
real world it's speculative philosophy

00:22:42.600 --> 00:22:43.980
so

00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:45.720
um

00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.720
so it doesn't have that kind of heat you

00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.679
know

00:22:49.679 --> 00:22:51.679
um

00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:55.880
foreign

00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:06.840
but yeah now I thought the question you

00:23:06.840 --> 00:23:08.880
were going to ask is you know his essay

00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.640
was about the social imaginary and

00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:13.440
that's an interesting question in terms

00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.900
of what will get to the collective at

00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:18.000
the end of the year but

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.340
um uh you know Collective Consciousness

00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:22.919
or collective intelligence we're going

00:23:22.919 --> 00:23:25.620
to try to take all of these Concepts up

00:23:25.620 --> 00:23:27.600
like what is collective perception what

00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:29.580
is collective memory what is collective

00:23:29.580 --> 00:23:31.260
imagination what is collective

00:23:31.260 --> 00:23:34.679
justification those are ideologies right

00:23:34.679 --> 00:23:36.480
what is collective this what is

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.679
collective that we'll try to create some

00:23:40.679 --> 00:23:44.880
Theory what is a collective body right

00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.120
um we'll try to create some

00:23:48.120 --> 00:23:50.400
and that part of the project like in my

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.679
in terms of my work is not really

00:23:52.679 --> 00:23:56.159
written in and so that's that's what

00:23:56.159 --> 00:23:58.320
we're going to co-create more as we go

00:23:58.320 --> 00:23:59.760
on like what is

00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:02.340
if now we understand imagination and the

00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:05.880
liminal this way what is the collective

00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.780
versions of that

00:24:09.419 --> 00:24:11.880
and we will need a theory of action

00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:14.700
protocols I think two

00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:16.140
uh

00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:19.140
create that so

00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:21.799
um yeah

00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:29.400
you know look at the collective

00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.159
justification system are are just like

00:24:32.159 --> 00:24:34.799
National ideologies right

00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.919
that one's that one's pretty easy

00:24:37.919 --> 00:24:39.919
um

00:24:41.159 --> 00:24:43.980
but these are the ones are

00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:46.260
a little harder to

00:24:46.260 --> 00:24:49.440
to understand what is collective I mean

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.780
we're going to do they're two modules

00:24:51.780 --> 00:24:54.000
from now we're going to do uh reflexive

00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.000
reflection and recursivity what is the

00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:59.460
collective reflexivity

00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:03.419
that brings us to these strange work of

00:25:03.419 --> 00:25:06.659
this guy Barry Sandy well

00:25:06.659 --> 00:25:07.980
um yeah

00:25:07.980 --> 00:25:10.520
so

00:25:12.780 --> 00:25:14.640
you can start

00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:16.730
working on those problems now

00:25:16.730 --> 00:25:19.769
[Music]

00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:23.280
find out these

00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:26.600
he was like

00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:29.279
don't fly away

00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.539
on the ground yeah

00:25:34.500 --> 00:25:36.419
yeah Jesus

00:25:36.419 --> 00:25:41.400
like just I felt like

00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:44.100
just with what you just said like

00:25:44.100 --> 00:25:46.380
like I could just like there's an

00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:50.220
infinite amount of like

00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.400
studying or learning you what a person

00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:54.720
could do with that

00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:56.880
and often I find

00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.220
for me it's like

00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:00.900
it's like really cool and interesting

00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:02.340
but

00:26:02.340 --> 00:26:04.140
it's kind of like candy in a candy shop

00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:08.159
yeah you know it's like okay it's like

00:26:08.159 --> 00:26:11.820
oh like like yeah I don't know

00:26:11.820 --> 00:26:14.640
yeah it's crazy but what we're trying to

00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.799
do is in you know

00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.740
um you'll see that that I mean that's my

00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:22.140
function is to try to you know sort of

00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:25.919
unlike your chat GPT hello here's your

00:26:25.919 --> 00:26:29.520
your chat GPT who's here but because

00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:32.159
we're getting used to like what is the

00:26:32.159 --> 00:26:35.400
imagination versus memory in my body we

00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:36.840
can all think about these things

00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:40.740
together you know like like

00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:42.360
um

00:26:42.360 --> 00:26:43.799
foreign

00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.440
but it does you can get you can get very

00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:50.400
uh it can it can get you kind of High

00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:53.340
um when the energy goes up that way

00:26:53.340 --> 00:26:56.400
um but I'm going to explain to you why

00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.100
um Imagination I will I'll do this

00:26:59.100 --> 00:27:01.799
gently piece now

00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.020
um there's nothing to study no one you

00:27:04.020 --> 00:27:05.760
can't go read about anything we're doing

00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:08.100
here we're making we're just making it

00:27:08.100 --> 00:27:12.360
up so uh yeah

00:27:12.360 --> 00:27:14.220
um so

00:27:14.220 --> 00:27:16.200
um you know I started reading around a

00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:19.440
little and again this is actually my

00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.840
life there's so many different threads

00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:23.340
that I could bring in but I thought I'd

00:27:23.340 --> 00:27:25.260
bring in this little piece from gentling

00:27:25.260 --> 00:27:28.260
because it's it's something

00:27:28.260 --> 00:27:31.020
um very important

00:27:31.020 --> 00:27:32.760
and that is

00:27:32.760 --> 00:27:35.340
um he's talking about

00:27:35.340 --> 00:27:37.400
um

00:27:47.159 --> 00:27:49.740
he has very eclectic language but okay

00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:51.659
so

00:27:51.659 --> 00:27:55.380
he's talking about uh the productive

00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:57.539
imagination

00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:59.640
um

00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.039
um which comes before the reproductive

00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:03.059
one

00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:06.360
and that is kind of what we're saying is

00:28:06.360 --> 00:28:09.240
the productive imagination seems to come

00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:11.700
from nowhere like the unconscious and

00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:14.520
then you can do something with it right

00:28:14.520 --> 00:28:17.640
um but that's not the important part

00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.919
gently use this word can Nation

00:28:19.919 --> 00:28:22.919
k-i-n-a-t-i-o-n

00:28:24.360 --> 00:28:27.120
and because what he wants to do as

00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:30.419
jenslin always wants to do is

00:28:30.419 --> 00:28:33.779
um say that imagination comes from our

00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:35.940
animal body

00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:40.140
and so that part of imagination

00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:43.559
he calls kin Nation like because it has

00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:45.539
that word kinesthetic you're just moving

00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:47.580
in your environment

00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:48.720
um

00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:50.700
so

00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:54.799
what he's saying is

00:28:56.340 --> 00:29:01.159
just listen to how he's talking so

00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:09.360
he says the whole body is an interaction

00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:12.600
with the environment this is

00:29:12.600 --> 00:29:14.659
um

00:29:15.840 --> 00:29:18.059
um in traditional Western philosophy the

00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:21.260
whole body was ignored

00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.380
and then he says

00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:27.500
um

00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:31.500
if we look up how a situation an

00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.260
animal's behavior and context includes

00:29:34.260 --> 00:29:37.860
objects perceived and felt behind the

00:29:37.860 --> 00:29:40.020
body as much as in front

00:29:40.020 --> 00:29:42.720
Behavior space includes the Predator

00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.240
behind the escaping animal

00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:48.240
Behavior space does not consist of bits

00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:51.120
of color and smell but of the bodily

00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:54.480
implied behaviors and the objects

00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.419
so he's going to say that the body

00:29:57.419 --> 00:29:59.760
implies which means the body is

00:29:59.760 --> 00:30:02.520
imagining three-dimensional space as the

00:30:02.520 --> 00:30:04.020
animals running away from the Predator

00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:08.820
right the body is imagining what must be

00:30:08.820 --> 00:30:09.899
the case

00:30:09.899 --> 00:30:11.700
because they're going to turn around and

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:14.220
see the Predator so this is productive

00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:17.059
imagination

00:30:17.399 --> 00:30:20.820
he says the animals running carries

00:30:20.820 --> 00:30:24.000
forward a felt and perceived space of

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.940
many possible behaviors so as the

00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:29.220
animals running away and he's imagining

00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:32.100
what the situation might be he's

00:30:32.100 --> 00:30:35.220
imagining spaces of possibility and

00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:37.860
gentleman says this is what where

00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:39.899
imagination comes from

00:30:39.899 --> 00:30:41.760
just as we've been saying over and over

00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:43.919
again virtual perceptions

00:30:43.919 --> 00:30:47.399
run through perception systems virtual

00:30:47.399 --> 00:30:51.059
memory runs through you know like it is

00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:54.659
the body doing it at a virtual level

00:30:54.659 --> 00:30:56.820
and so he says that's so when we're

00:30:56.820 --> 00:30:58.140
imagining

00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:02.220
the body knows how to open search space

00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:06.000
open potential dimensions

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.940
in real time right so it's as it moves

00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.140
through the environment then it's

00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:12.000
updating its imagination and if you

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.919
think about it this is actually the

00:31:13.919 --> 00:31:16.140
process of imagination you open the

00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:18.779
search space you're imagining what the

00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:20.880
search space is like you imagine

00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:24.200
different threads and so he says

00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:26.279
imagining is not something that happens

00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.120
in the brain it happens in microactions

00:31:30.120 --> 00:31:32.220
in your body it's the same thing that's

00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:34.559
happening when the animal is moving in

00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:35.820
the environment

00:31:35.820 --> 00:31:38.820
so again this is important to us because

00:31:38.820 --> 00:31:41.419
we want to put even imagination

00:31:41.419 --> 00:31:45.860
into the animal body

00:31:48.659 --> 00:31:50.279
um

00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:51.840
the animal

00:31:51.840 --> 00:31:54.480
uh the running and the passing trees

00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.700
carry forward its bodily Escape

00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.340
motivation of course it feels and

00:31:59.340 --> 00:32:01.919
perceives the trees behind it the animal

00:32:01.919 --> 00:32:03.899
feels that if it were to back up at a

00:32:03.899 --> 00:32:06.240
slant it would hit the tree and it feels

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:09.559
this quiet without looking

00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.360
so this is uh like

00:32:15.360 --> 00:32:17.419
um

00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:22.320
this is all part of this notion so just

00:32:22.320 --> 00:32:25.320
keep that in mind and now he says if we

00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:27.659
now say that behavior space is

00:32:27.659 --> 00:32:30.559
Imagination

00:32:32.179 --> 00:32:35.760
the world the word would come to mean

00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:37.980
what is actually present in body

00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:41.480
environment interaction

00:32:41.940 --> 00:32:44.820
this is true of human imagination as

00:32:44.820 --> 00:32:47.120
well

00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:52.559
so then he says in focusing or in felt

00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.559
sense in his work this is the

00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:57.720
imagination he wants to develop further

00:32:57.720 --> 00:32:59.820
so it's not

00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:04.940
combining Concepts or images it's it's

00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:08.659
the bodilies the bodies

00:33:08.659 --> 00:33:12.000
emanation of spatial relationship

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.039
passing through time

00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:18.799
is the experience of the imagination

00:33:20.330 --> 00:33:21.659
[Music]

00:33:21.659 --> 00:33:24.299
I know it's it's not it's like it's hard

00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:25.860
I mean if I just read it it won't make

00:33:25.860 --> 00:33:27.539
sense either so then we write says

00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:29.820
imagination might be misleading if

00:33:29.820 --> 00:33:33.299
images are thought of only as visual or

00:33:33.299 --> 00:33:36.720
only of the senses the word kinesthetic

00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.740
from motion is still too poor if one

00:33:40.740 --> 00:33:42.899
thinks of motion as just a change of

00:33:42.899 --> 00:33:45.860
location in empty space

00:33:45.860 --> 00:33:48.779
we will see that pure motion involves a

00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:51.000
prior behavioral space and of course the

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:53.360
whole body I coined the word Kim Nation

00:33:53.360 --> 00:34:00.080
to use where imagination usually comes

00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:03.840
Ian is the doubled but I'm going to make

00:34:03.840 --> 00:34:06.000
this simpler for you in a second

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:06.190
um

00:34:06.190 --> 00:34:07.980
[Music]

00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:11.159
but I just wanted to ground this I mean

00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:14.879
this is brilliant work it's just that

00:34:14.879 --> 00:34:16.800
I'm just going to simplify it for you

00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.919
kin nation is the doubled bodily implied

00:34:19.919 --> 00:34:21.599
Behavior space

00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.300
for example the cat meows before the

00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:28.619
door she imagines running outside

00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:31.260
you see how see the connections he's

00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:34.619
making when she meows at the door she

00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:37.940
imagines running outside

00:34:41.700 --> 00:34:43.980
and this is important for our Theory the

00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:45.780
body again I'll say it again because we

00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:48.359
want to put the Mind into the body and

00:34:48.359 --> 00:34:50.540
so all these what we call mental

00:34:50.540 --> 00:34:53.040
phenomenon we're going to say oh no this

00:34:53.040 --> 00:34:55.500
is just comes I mean it's it's it's more

00:34:55.500 --> 00:34:58.140
complex than the cat but it it comes

00:34:58.140 --> 00:34:59.960
from the animal body

00:34:59.960 --> 00:35:03.060
directly it's not a metaphor This Is Us

00:35:03.060 --> 00:35:06.680
trying to explain to someone about John

00:35:06.680 --> 00:35:09.780
viveki you know for him the body is a

00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:13.020
metaphor that the mind then kind of is

00:35:13.020 --> 00:35:15.900
an analog for rather than like no the

00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:18.300
body is not a metaphor for the mind you

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:20.579
know like this is not a metaphor it's a

00:35:20.579 --> 00:35:21.300
direct

00:35:21.300 --> 00:35:24.780
a direct continuity

00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:27.780
the doors in Behavior space along with

00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:30.660
what is on both sides of the door

00:35:30.660 --> 00:35:32.940
the behavior space consists of many

00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.460
Behavior the cat does out there and what

00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:37.740
it does now in here

00:35:37.740 --> 00:35:39.900
there is no great division between the

00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:42.420
dorothies and the outdoors it does not

00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:45.060
see now you notice that location in

00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:48.900
space also made a big contribution to

00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:52.560
memory we organize memory as bodily

00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:54.720
spaces that we can go and we're coming

00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:56.400
and going and

00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:00.020
so this is a big part of why the body is

00:36:00.020 --> 00:36:03.359
the fundamental template for any mental

00:36:03.359 --> 00:36:04.680
activity

00:36:04.680 --> 00:36:07.440
the bodily implied connection is always

00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.119
vastly wider than what can be

00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.700
photographed as at the moment

00:36:11.700 --> 00:36:15.920
okay so so

00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:20.040
that's a leap of imagination but it's

00:36:20.040 --> 00:36:22.380
also an intuition right it's an

00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:26.220
intuition into like this deeper pattern

00:36:26.220 --> 00:36:28.850
um that is actually happening between

00:36:28.850 --> 00:36:29.940
[Music]

00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:32.760
um you know the animal body I'll just

00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:36.020
call it that and where where and then

00:36:36.020 --> 00:36:38.760
the human complexity carries it forward

00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.619
so

00:36:40.619 --> 00:36:43.339
um what I want to what I'm going to do

00:36:43.339 --> 00:36:47.119
what we're going to do is take that

00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:51.300
and design and pragmatic imagination and

00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:53.750
we are going to

00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:53.820
[Music]

00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:55.820
um

00:36:57.720 --> 00:37:04.400
make it simpler so we're going to say

00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:06.300
first

00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:10.440
there is The Situation Room so I'm going

00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:12.720
to use the word room

00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:15.119
so you can imagine I'm in a room because

00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:18.720
we're going to we're trying to uh

00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:22.200
capitalize on these spatial metaphors

00:37:22.200 --> 00:37:23.400
right

00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.200
so

00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:28.740
um in your situational room

00:37:28.740 --> 00:37:31.320
what what's there you have your

00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:34.320
dispositional state

00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:38.160
you have affect and

00:37:38.160 --> 00:37:39.300
um let's say

00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:40.980
um arousal

00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:43.980
and it's some kind of affects so the cat

00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:47.460
has a dispositional state it gets hungry

00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:50.460
or it's aroused by wanting to go outside

00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:53.820
whatever and and then that turns into an

00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:55.980
affect it's seeking movement or

00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:58.260
something right that's what we're just

00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:00.780
going to call the Situation Room

00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:03.079
foreign

00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.060
your search space

00:38:09.060 --> 00:38:12.420
so you're sitting in your situation room

00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:15.119
and with your imagination you open up

00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.460
search space

00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:18.780
where are you going to search you're

00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:20.520
going to search books are you going to

00:38:20.520 --> 00:38:22.560
search more on your imagination are you

00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:25.800
gonna doodle around are you gonna let

00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.680
your eyes gaze and see what's a

00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:29.839
significant

00:38:29.839 --> 00:38:36.000
object what's what is the the breadth of

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.220
your search space where are the places

00:38:38.220 --> 00:38:40.680
you can go

00:38:40.680 --> 00:38:43.680
and again using these spatial metaphors

00:38:43.680 --> 00:38:45.540
because of

00:38:45.540 --> 00:38:48.359
how we know how it works do you see what

00:38:48.359 --> 00:38:49.380
I'm saying

00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:51.900
so I've actually done this with

00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:55.500
Executives for ideation so the second

00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:57.839
thing is search space and that's when

00:38:57.839 --> 00:39:00.300
you and in your and that's the

00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:01.859
imagination

00:39:01.859 --> 00:39:04.980
so Situation Room it's dispositional

00:39:04.980 --> 00:39:07.500
you have some kind of arousal it turns

00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:09.720
into affect this is a state like okay

00:39:09.720 --> 00:39:12.119
this is my situation why am I worried

00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:13.920
about this why am I paying about this

00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:15.780
why do I want to do something about this

00:39:15.780 --> 00:39:19.320
uh why do I want this really bad

00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.140
um so that is and then you open your

00:39:22.140 --> 00:39:26.060
search space that's the imagination

00:39:28.160 --> 00:39:31.079
and this is all imaginal but it's

00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.859
actually exactly the sequence of our

00:39:34.859 --> 00:39:37.740
animal nature and then you build your

00:39:37.740 --> 00:39:41.180
possibility landscape

00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:47.460
so this is the the animal running

00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:49.680
through an actual landscape and seeing

00:39:49.680 --> 00:39:51.359
what I could run up this tree or if I do

00:39:51.359 --> 00:39:53.220
this I could do that and that's when you

00:39:53.220 --> 00:39:56.400
use synesthesia

00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.940
because you see in your search space you

00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:02.220
want to build up possibility landscape

00:40:02.220 --> 00:40:03.599
well I could use it's like cooking I

00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.640
could use this and this or I could use

00:40:05.640 --> 00:40:08.579
this and this or maybe that is like this

00:40:08.579 --> 00:40:10.859
I could use this like that

00:40:10.859 --> 00:40:12.780
you start to build up in your

00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:15.270
imagination a possibility landscape

00:40:15.270 --> 00:40:18.389
[Music]

00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:29.180
and then the fourth thing is goal tuning

00:40:29.180 --> 00:40:32.160
and this is when we experiment and play

00:40:32.160 --> 00:40:35.460
it's actionable right at a certain point

00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.800
you get close to your girl you're not

00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:39.359
quite there you have to then you have to

00:40:39.359 --> 00:40:40.980
maybe open your search base a little

00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:43.220
more it becomes iterative

00:40:43.220 --> 00:40:45.839
and then the goal to the what is the

00:40:45.839 --> 00:40:48.359
goal actions that satisfy

00:40:48.359 --> 00:40:53.000
the arousal state in the Situation Room

00:41:04.520 --> 00:41:07.920
these are actually the four sequences

00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.980
that Evo and I are working with in the

00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:13.619
action protocols that these are all what

00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:15.599
are the action protocols in these in

00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:17.400
these phases of

00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:22.079
of problem solving or building World

00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.920
building or something

00:41:32.099 --> 00:41:35.460
and the idea is the more you can train

00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:40.020
people to to actually imagine

00:41:40.020 --> 00:41:42.599
working through a problem as working

00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:45.420
through spaces like this the more you

00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:49.320
open up the native intelligence

00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:52.260
of the embodied experience that we've

00:41:52.260 --> 00:41:56.220
evolved we've evolved too

00:41:56.220 --> 00:41:58.760
foreign

00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.339
would you say that like

00:42:02.339 --> 00:42:04.920
some some people for different reasons

00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.260
are kind of better at certain things

00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:09.060
than others like certain parts of the

00:42:09.060 --> 00:42:10.800
sequence than others

00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:12.060
like

00:42:12.060 --> 00:42:15.200
yeah but and if you do this as a team

00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:19.859
then you can watch people you can you

00:42:19.859 --> 00:42:24.380
can easily meld with people moving like

00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:27.119
I've done this and then you feel like

00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:28.740
you made a big contribution then you get

00:42:28.740 --> 00:42:30.599
exhausted and then someone else picks it

00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:33.599
up and then it's not you can carry on

00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:34.980
the conversation you don't get left

00:42:34.980 --> 00:42:37.500
behind you see people

00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:39.780
um that are like a lot of people are

00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:41.940
really good at goal tuning and they just

00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:45.420
sit there like um uh

00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:46.980
um

00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:50.040
um in these big design firms the head

00:42:50.040 --> 00:42:52.380
designer doesn't do any of the ideation

00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.300
anymore it's just gold Tunes at the end

00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:56.040
he's got whole teams doing all this

00:42:56.040 --> 00:42:59.099
other you know all this other stuff so

00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:01.800
um yeah so if you if you create a

00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:05.640
collective uh process it's much it's

00:43:05.640 --> 00:43:07.980
much easier

00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:10.260
but this is one way to make this

00:43:10.260 --> 00:43:12.500
pragmatic so Dave asked that question

00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:16.500
and we are working with kin Nation you

00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:19.500
can say oh this is works with canation

00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:24.000
um anyways so uh that's something that I

00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:29.400
will put in uh the pragmatic imagination

00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:30.180
um

00:43:30.180 --> 00:43:30.960
um

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.540
part so does that kind of make sense

00:43:33.540 --> 00:43:35.400
like what you can do with this stuff

00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.680
all right

00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:40.440
are there any questions I have one other

00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.880
thing to put in the space but

00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.900
so if you're working with uh Collective

00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:51.900
presence and you're working on a problem

00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:57.480
um the this is a uh uh a way to create

00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.359
ideation rather than that's a you know

00:44:00.359 --> 00:44:02.760
put kind of like some kind of

00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:06.180
uh forward constraint on

00:44:06.180 --> 00:44:07.079
um

00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.579
on a process so

00:44:19.319 --> 00:44:20.819
this might be

00:44:20.819 --> 00:44:23.460
like I like how kind of simplified this

00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:26.220
is and this question might I don't know

00:44:26.220 --> 00:44:28.380
if it's it might just make it more

00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:30.839
complicated and I'm kind of not a

00:44:30.839 --> 00:44:32.760
necessary way but

00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.660
I'm kind of not seeing the canation part

00:44:36.660 --> 00:44:39.599
how that connects or

00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:42.119
like when you talked about it I was kind

00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.240
of Imagine like maybe getting it but I'm

00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:48.359
not really seeing where that fits so for

00:44:48.359 --> 00:44:52.160
me it's it's my uh you know

00:44:52.160 --> 00:44:54.540
gentlemen's very well established

00:44:54.540 --> 00:44:57.839
thinker so anytime you can take a new

00:44:57.839 --> 00:44:59.520
idea and say

00:44:59.520 --> 00:45:00.319
that

00:45:00.319 --> 00:45:02.940
his ideas already established the point

00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:04.380
so you don't need to know anything about

00:45:04.380 --> 00:45:07.200
canation any and like I said when I read

00:45:07.200 --> 00:45:08.940
it if you don't have it read a lot of

00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:11.040
jungling it's really hard to know what

00:45:11.040 --> 00:45:13.560
he's saying but basically that whole

00:45:13.560 --> 00:45:16.200
thing that when you cat is going to the

00:45:16.200 --> 00:45:18.720
door he's in arousal State and he

00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:21.420
imagines that the door there's there

00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:23.280
there's whatever my cats like to go out

00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.020
and eat grass and puke so he imagines

00:45:25.020 --> 00:45:27.180
that there's grass on the other side and

00:45:27.180 --> 00:45:29.339
he's saying it's not it's of course it's

00:45:29.339 --> 00:45:31.140
perception too he might smell it and

00:45:31.140 --> 00:45:33.420
stuff like that but there's also in this

00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:36.660
imaginative process any and so he calls

00:45:36.660 --> 00:45:39.599
all of that that connection to the our

00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:40.520
animal

00:45:40.520 --> 00:45:44.579
evolved animal uh embodied action he

00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:47.220
calls that connection and he says that's

00:45:47.220 --> 00:45:50.099
where human imagination comes from but

00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:52.740
he wants to use another word because

00:45:52.740 --> 00:45:55.619
people often think human imagination is

00:45:55.619 --> 00:45:58.619
like you know they've used one word and

00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:00.359
that makes it they think it's word

00:46:00.359 --> 00:46:01.800
association

00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:05.040
or just image Association he's not no

00:46:05.040 --> 00:46:07.079
you have to use your whole body like

00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.359
you're moving through spaces you're

00:46:09.359 --> 00:46:11.640
what's behind you like when you're

00:46:11.640 --> 00:46:13.680
imagining stuff then you work you could

00:46:13.680 --> 00:46:15.240
ask yourself the question wait what's

00:46:15.240 --> 00:46:17.880
behind me this is a very powerful move

00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:21.060
in an imaginative process so that's why

00:46:21.060 --> 00:46:23.220
I use the word canation just to show

00:46:23.220 --> 00:46:25.859
that it it's it's been explicated in the

00:46:25.859 --> 00:46:28.619
literature in a in a in a rigorous

00:46:28.619 --> 00:46:31.560
rigorous way I just want to simplify it

00:46:31.560 --> 00:46:34.800
so yeah it sounds almost like

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.520
like virtual reality basically like but

00:46:38.520 --> 00:46:40.920
just in your head like

00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.319
like when I when you started talking

00:46:43.319 --> 00:46:46.319
about it the image I got was like like

00:46:46.319 --> 00:46:48.660
Larry Bird throwing behind the back pass

00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:50.819
to someone he's not even looking at like

00:46:50.819 --> 00:46:52.859
that kind of like you you know like

00:46:52.859 --> 00:46:55.079
you're aware of where the hoop is where

00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:56.700
the other player is even though you're

00:46:56.700 --> 00:46:58.260
not looking there you're looking the

00:46:58.260 --> 00:47:00.599
opposite direction right and it would be

00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.480
hard for you to say he imagined the guy

00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:06.000
who's behind him but jenlyn says he

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:10.560
Canadian you know like like because so

00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:12.359
that's what he's trying to say you know

00:47:12.359 --> 00:47:15.960
it's in and anyways it doesn't matter if

00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:17.940
that word makes sense to you or not I

00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:19.920
just I know there's some people that are

00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.200
really into juggling and

00:47:22.200 --> 00:47:27.180
um yeah so and just try like and a lot

00:47:27.180 --> 00:47:29.520
of people use genuine's notion it felt

00:47:29.520 --> 00:47:34.079
sense but it's already to

00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:34.859
um

00:47:34.859 --> 00:47:37.920
too much imagery and metaphor and not

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.400
enough like

00:47:40.680 --> 00:47:43.500
staying longer lingering at the animal

00:47:43.500 --> 00:47:47.520
kind of Event Horizon

00:47:47.520 --> 00:47:49.260
um long enough

00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:50.160
um

00:47:50.160 --> 00:47:52.380
and and then entering search space

00:47:52.380 --> 00:47:56.339
instead of coming up with ideas from the

00:47:56.339 --> 00:47:59.040
felt sense you know then so it just it

00:47:59.040 --> 00:48:00.900
just helps people linger in the body

00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.060
before they do

00:48:03.060 --> 00:48:04.220
um ideation

00:48:04.220 --> 00:48:06.119
[Music]

00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.119
foreign

00:48:24.359 --> 00:48:27.180
this these four steps they make sense to

00:48:27.180 --> 00:48:29.520
me as kind of a

00:48:29.520 --> 00:48:33.000
a process for an individual to be able

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:34.800
to walk through but when you were

00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:36.720
talking about it did I understand

00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:39.060
correctly that you were you were

00:48:39.060 --> 00:48:42.480
thinking about this as a process of

00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:44.339
collective

00:48:44.339 --> 00:48:46.339
problem solving

00:48:46.339 --> 00:48:49.380
and it slows up everything down so for

00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:51.780
example I mean the easiest one to

00:48:51.780 --> 00:48:54.240
because it's pragmatic is to imagine a

00:48:54.240 --> 00:48:56.940
team in an organization okay

00:48:56.940 --> 00:48:57.540
um

00:48:57.540 --> 00:48:59.220
so

00:48:59.220 --> 00:49:02.520
um what happens is first you have to say

00:49:02.520 --> 00:49:04.619
what is The Situation Room look like

00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:08.040
right because people think they both

00:49:08.040 --> 00:49:10.560
everybody sees the same situation if

00:49:10.560 --> 00:49:12.359
they just talk it'll sound like

00:49:12.359 --> 00:49:15.180
everybody is saying the same thing but

00:49:15.180 --> 00:49:17.760
if you have them describe the situation

00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:19.680
from there for you know it's literally

00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:21.900
you're saying what does the room look

00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:24.540
like you see the difference

00:49:24.540 --> 00:49:27.780
it it's kind of like when I say we talk

00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:28.859
about

00:49:28.859 --> 00:49:32.160
um Society collapse and then I say what

00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:34.560
little mental model is running in your

00:49:34.560 --> 00:49:36.180
head when you're afraid of society

00:49:36.180 --> 00:49:38.099
collapse and then you might share that

00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:40.800
and then you see oh that word Society

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:42.960
collapse means completely different

00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.880
things to people so how can you work on

00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:47.460
the problem you're standing in different

00:49:47.460 --> 00:49:52.260
situation rooms now this is 99.9 of the

00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:54.180
time this is what actually where people

00:49:54.180 --> 00:49:56.099
start they're standing in different

00:49:56.099 --> 00:49:58.020
rooms trying to solve a problem but

00:49:58.020 --> 00:50:01.020
they're not even in the same room

00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:03.780
and when you ask them to be in the room

00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:05.339
you don't say

00:50:05.339 --> 00:50:08.579
you're asking them like look around what

00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:11.040
do you see what do you feel I'm afraid

00:50:11.040 --> 00:50:13.440
where what are you afraid of well you

00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.619
know like imaginatively look something's

00:50:16.619 --> 00:50:18.359
in the room that you're afraid of what

00:50:18.359 --> 00:50:19.800
is that

00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:23.220
this is so people never stop start here

00:50:23.220 --> 00:50:26.220
right but it's in it's it's impossible

00:50:26.220 --> 00:50:28.200
to have collective intelligence if

00:50:28.200 --> 00:50:30.599
you're not standing imaginatively in the

00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:33.859
same room it's not dialogical

00:50:33.859 --> 00:50:36.900
dialogue you can get away with people's

00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:38.520
sounding like they're made they're

00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:40.079
making sense it sounds like they're

00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:42.000
making sense but they're projecting

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.339
meaning on Concepts while they're

00:50:44.339 --> 00:50:47.099
standing in different rooms you know one

00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:49.440
person saying well the cat is after me

00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:51.480
and the other person's saying yeah I'm

00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:53.640
afraid too the cat is after me and the

00:50:53.640 --> 00:50:55.559
other person's saying yeah the cat is up

00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:57.780
to me but what they're looking at are

00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:00.619
three different complete cats

00:51:00.619 --> 00:51:04.680
and so this is this is you start this is

00:51:04.680 --> 00:51:07.760
where you have to start

00:51:07.859 --> 00:51:09.720
um it's very difficult to get people to

00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:11.040
start this way because they have to

00:51:11.040 --> 00:51:13.380
think imaginatively what they usually do

00:51:13.380 --> 00:51:15.599
is draw diagrams well he's mad at them

00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.480
and they're mad at them like no like use

00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.720
your body what does it feel like in this

00:51:21.720 --> 00:51:22.559
room

00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.559
so you're calling the Situation Room

00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:28.200
um so so that's how you can use it

00:51:28.200 --> 00:51:30.380
collectively now everybody's like

00:51:30.380 --> 00:51:33.900
imaginatively in this room

00:51:33.900 --> 00:51:37.500
and now you're gonna open the room like

00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:39.780
what's what where else can we go to

00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:40.920
search

00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:45.119
what's and then and then that builds you

00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:47.940
know so however you want to facilitate

00:51:47.940 --> 00:51:50.700
possibility Landscapes and then

00:51:50.700 --> 00:51:52.260
um so

00:51:52.260 --> 00:51:56.579
it's a it's a it's a sequence of

00:51:56.579 --> 00:51:59.700
pragmatic imagination

00:51:59.700 --> 00:52:03.240
so you can see Situation Room is her

00:52:03.240 --> 00:52:04.440
perception

00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:07.079
search base is her

00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:09.599
um Imagination or I think she even has

00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:11.160
search

00:52:11.160 --> 00:52:14.099
um possibility landscape is uh

00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:17.760
speculation and goal tuning is free play

00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:23.839
so it it it it maps onto

00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:27.660
what they came up with but I like

00:52:27.660 --> 00:52:30.780
my my but my terms

00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:33.000
are tied into

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:37.400
embodied felt sense practice

00:52:39.490 --> 00:52:42.650
[Music]

00:52:43.319 --> 00:52:45.960
funny

00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:48.900
um I I see something here or something

00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:51.540
arises when I think of the deductive

00:52:51.540 --> 00:52:53.760
inductive and the abductive sorry if I'm

00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:56.760
thinking of inductive and involution and

00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:58.020
ingression

00:52:58.020 --> 00:53:00.300
it's almost like coming home to Ground

00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:01.619
Zero

00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:03.660
is that it's almost like a homecoming

00:53:03.660 --> 00:53:05.940
party or remembrance of some sort by

00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:09.839
having those objects in and out

00:53:09.839 --> 00:53:12.720
is that making any sense yeah ingression

00:53:12.720 --> 00:53:14.880
is

00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:18.059
um ingression is I think I think mostly

00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:20.460
it's speculative

00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:22.200
um I I don't know people use the

00:53:22.200 --> 00:53:24.660
abduction differently she gets to

00:53:24.660 --> 00:53:27.000
speculative it gets to we're we're

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.240
working more with speculation

00:53:30.240 --> 00:53:33.359
um but in Russian is important because

00:53:33.359 --> 00:53:35.300
as you're imagining

00:53:35.300 --> 00:53:38.400
you're ingressing the sense of moving

00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.559
through that environment you know what

00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:42.720
you imagine is building some kind of

00:53:42.720 --> 00:53:44.700
muscle in you

00:53:44.700 --> 00:53:49.160
to to to carry that that

00:53:49.160 --> 00:53:51.839
forward you know

00:53:51.839 --> 00:53:56.180
um it's just a way to work work

00:53:57.540 --> 00:53:59.640
if you're going to enter into complete

00:53:59.640 --> 00:54:03.660
speculative speculative imagination

00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:06.300
if you ground them in steps that are

00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:09.960
already innate in the animal body

00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:13.079
then it's more likely that you come up

00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:15.780
with something real and less likely you

00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:17.819
come up with fantasy

00:54:17.819 --> 00:54:20.520
now fantasy is good too doesn't if

00:54:20.520 --> 00:54:22.800
that's you know you're building you

00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:24.720
might want to have another Marvel story

00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:27.000
and it's complete fantasy that's not

00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:28.680
what I'm saying

00:54:28.680 --> 00:54:31.619
um but if you keep connecting it to the

00:54:31.619 --> 00:54:34.680
lived body running it through what the

00:54:34.680 --> 00:54:38.280
body knows how to do then chances are

00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.540
what you come up with

00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:45.200
is more pragmatic

00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:48.420
you're constraining the mind the free

00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:51.359
play of the imagination to what the body

00:54:51.359 --> 00:54:54.000
knows how to do

00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:57.180
um so it makes it a little harder but I

00:54:57.180 --> 00:54:58.740
mean how many have you ever been in a

00:54:58.740 --> 00:55:00.660
brainstorming session people just

00:55:00.660 --> 00:55:02.160
brainstorm and then you go out and

00:55:02.160 --> 00:55:04.859
nothing I mean it's just brainstorming

00:55:04.859 --> 00:55:08.780
this is body storming

00:55:16.819 --> 00:55:19.500
and you can hear people come from that

00:55:19.500 --> 00:55:22.079
place when they speak so I wonder if

00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:23.819
you're in that space in the collective

00:55:23.819 --> 00:55:24.780
space

00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:27.240
as someone says something it's almost

00:55:27.240 --> 00:55:29.400
like everybody's nodding and saying yeah

00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:32.220
that's it and you don't even know what

00:55:32.220 --> 00:55:33.720
it is

00:55:33.720 --> 00:55:35.720
yeah

00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:38.700
yeah and then you might have to go and

00:55:38.700 --> 00:55:40.319
then you might have to go back to like

00:55:40.319 --> 00:55:42.540
what does it look like before you move

00:55:42.540 --> 00:55:44.640
too fast because you feel that that's it

00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:46.319
you got to make sure though you're now

00:55:46.319 --> 00:55:47.940
you're sitting in the same room the room

00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:50.339
has been carried forward but now you're

00:55:50.339 --> 00:55:51.780
sitting in the same room again you know

00:55:51.780 --> 00:55:53.700
it's an iterative process

00:55:53.700 --> 00:55:57.720
so you can get you can feel that you're

00:55:57.720 --> 00:55:59.819
starting to now because what you're

00:55:59.819 --> 00:56:02.000
trying to do is have one imaginative

00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:03.800
mind

00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:06.780
and individual Minds will start to

00:56:06.780 --> 00:56:09.359
diverge once you move faces so you have

00:56:09.359 --> 00:56:11.579
to make sure that

00:56:11.579 --> 00:56:14.400
you're creating the same imaginative

00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.440
space

00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:18.440
um

00:56:19.020 --> 00:56:21.839
and sometimes you'll get a deep resonant

00:56:21.839 --> 00:56:25.140
hit from your affects but the

00:56:25.140 --> 00:56:27.540
imaginative spaces have have diverged

00:56:27.540 --> 00:56:29.460
somewhat

00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:32.160
so how do you ground that how what are

00:56:32.160 --> 00:56:34.619
some do you are there some practices

00:56:34.619 --> 00:56:37.500
that you can say or recommend like when

00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:39.119
you're in that space and you know that

00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:40.740
there's a deep resonance it's almost

00:56:40.740 --> 00:56:43.200
like the one the one body that that

00:56:43.200 --> 00:56:45.359
comes up and where it starts to come out

00:56:45.359 --> 00:56:47.160
or everybody pops up with different

00:56:47.160 --> 00:56:49.079
things but

00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:51.300
I don't know there's I feel there's

00:56:51.300 --> 00:56:52.740
something here

00:56:52.740 --> 00:56:55.740
but I can't speak to it maybe you can I

00:56:55.740 --> 00:56:57.240
I wonder there's something like

00:56:57.240 --> 00:56:59.880
grounding that space like like that

00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:03.059
little uh mind the gap thing about a

00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:05.040
healthy dispositional State and ask is

00:57:05.040 --> 00:57:06.420
it about asking the right questions

00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:09.300
there or what else can we do to almost

00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.440
like stabilize that before we move away

00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:15.359
is that making any sense well what we're

00:57:15.359 --> 00:57:18.540
trying to do is make explicit what is

00:57:18.540 --> 00:57:22.619
already how we are right and and so for

00:57:22.619 --> 00:57:25.400
example imagine

00:57:26.220 --> 00:57:28.200
um as I know

00:57:28.200 --> 00:57:29.040
um

00:57:29.040 --> 00:57:31.559
I mean I think I would say I'm gonna I'm

00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:33.480
going to project but I think Marie and

00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:35.579
Ray are very good at this and maybe they

00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:37.619
could speak to it you you're trying to

00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:39.300
build or renovate a house with your

00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:40.260
husband

00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:42.059
and you both love the house and you're

00:57:42.059 --> 00:57:44.579
like yeah and you're both seeing

00:57:44.579 --> 00:57:46.819
something and it's not the same thing

00:57:46.819 --> 00:57:50.339
like this is what gets people into well

00:57:50.339 --> 00:57:52.619
when people get married they'll both see

00:57:52.619 --> 00:57:55.200
this this shared future and they're not

00:57:55.200 --> 00:57:57.119
looking at the same thing

00:57:57.119 --> 00:58:00.599
and then they're like oh my God like

00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:01.859
like

00:58:01.859 --> 00:58:05.579
it so so and that's okay because you

00:58:05.579 --> 00:58:07.680
can't just unless you're really really

00:58:07.680 --> 00:58:10.200
lucky you know

00:58:10.200 --> 00:58:13.260
be on the same page so there's this

00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:16.260
long-term process of

00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:17.220
um

00:58:17.220 --> 00:58:19.680
well part of it is what is it like to be

00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:22.140
you why do you want want it that way

00:58:22.140 --> 00:58:24.000
like it doesn't make any sense to me

00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:26.280
well because you have imagined this and

00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:30.059
I'm imagining that and so so this is

00:58:30.059 --> 00:58:32.460
very human and when you when you live

00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:34.800
with someone you're doing this anyways

00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:37.859
it's just implicit and it's like pulling

00:58:37.859 --> 00:58:39.960
teeth but if you're if you want to

00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:42.720
accelerate collective intelligence then

00:58:42.720 --> 00:58:46.500
you you know we try to make it more

00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:50.280
formulaic uh doesn't make it always less

00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:51.660
messy

00:58:51.660 --> 00:58:53.400
but

00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:55.559
um but

00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:58.079
um you know I know if you don't mind me

00:58:58.079 --> 00:58:59.880
using you as an example that Ray and

00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:01.020
Marie have done a lot of beautiful

00:59:01.020 --> 00:59:04.140
construction and it's extremely it's so

00:59:04.140 --> 00:59:05.760
obvious when they talk about the process

00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:07.980
that they talk about it

00:59:07.980 --> 00:59:10.380
a lot like what is it like to live in a

00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:12.240
space like this and then someone will

00:59:12.240 --> 00:59:15.000
say no but then that corner will be here

00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:18.599
and like like they've they've I don't

00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:21.180
know I you know you guys haven't told me

00:59:21.180 --> 00:59:23.280
your methodology but it's clear that

00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:25.280
there's a lot of

00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.980
co-imagination and very careful uh

00:59:28.980 --> 00:59:31.859
understanding of what's in each other's

00:59:31.859 --> 00:59:34.020
mind

00:59:34.020 --> 00:59:37.559
um and and that process takes

00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:40.200
you know it's it's it's slow going when

00:59:40.200 --> 00:59:42.720
you have to make it explicit but it's a

00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:45.359
lot less painful if you you know like

00:59:45.359 --> 00:59:47.160
God forbid you build the whole freaking

00:59:47.160 --> 00:59:49.319
house I mean this would happen to my

00:59:49.319 --> 00:59:51.660
friend who lives here now they've built

00:59:51.660 --> 00:59:54.059
a whole new they increase their house

00:59:54.059 --> 00:59:56.880
size by three and a half times and then

00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:58.680
they were divorced within the year you

00:59:58.680 --> 01:00:00.839
know like God forbid what you think

01:00:00.839 --> 01:00:04.559
you're imagining is not at all what the

01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:06.599
other person is imagining they just it

01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:08.880
was completely

01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:12.440
they weren't on the same page

01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:15.359
so

01:00:15.359 --> 01:00:18.540
Bonnie you're helping me

01:00:18.540 --> 01:00:20.220
think about

01:00:20.220 --> 01:00:23.160
the distinction between that search

01:00:23.160 --> 01:00:25.579
space

01:00:27.500 --> 01:00:30.900
under your imagination I got a job site

01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:34.220
starting hold on

01:00:35.099 --> 01:00:38.099
oh

01:00:42.299 --> 01:00:46.380
BB Gun BB Gun come

01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:49.280
comes

01:01:07.140 --> 01:01:09.059
sorry he was getting jealous of that

01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:11.400
other dog that came in and that's just

01:01:11.400 --> 01:01:13.920
two seconds before it's really ugly okay

01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:16.200
go ahead please

01:01:16.200 --> 01:01:17.400
so

01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:20.579
yeah I mean as you were

01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:26.400
evoking our process of how we do this I

01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:27.900
I was

01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:30.180
the distinction between

01:01:30.180 --> 01:01:33.660
like I know what happens for us in that

01:01:33.660 --> 01:01:37.260
in that imaginal search space

01:01:37.260 --> 01:01:40.619
but as you were talking it became less

01:01:40.619 --> 01:01:43.680
clear the distinction between that and

01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:46.079
what it means when we're in that step

01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:48.599
where we're building our possibility

01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:51.240
landscape is that where the constraints

01:01:51.240 --> 01:01:52.559
come in

01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:57.000
yeah so you know constraints but also

01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:59.520
affordances you have this big old

01:01:59.520 --> 01:02:02.940
take picnic table that's rotting why

01:02:02.940 --> 01:02:04.799
can't we take the legs off of that or

01:02:04.799 --> 01:02:06.839
something you know and the possibility

01:02:06.839 --> 01:02:09.780
landscape you're starting to to

01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:13.500
see what's at ready at hand

01:02:13.500 --> 01:02:15.420
um you know if you think of it the I

01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:17.880
it's like being at a store oh like it's

01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:19.200
been like being at one of those big

01:02:19.200 --> 01:02:20.940
open-air markets and wondering what

01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:22.799
you're gonna make for dinner and you

01:02:22.799 --> 01:02:25.980
pick and smell and you pick and you know

01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:28.559
it's like a picking

01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:31.859
picking order yeah so uh it's like

01:02:31.859 --> 01:02:34.079
hunting hunter gatherer thing once you

01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:36.599
get out in the landscape

01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:37.680
um

01:02:37.680 --> 01:02:39.859
and that's synesthetic too because

01:02:39.859 --> 01:02:43.559
you're combining things right

01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:46.140
um in novel ways usually if it's a

01:02:46.140 --> 01:02:47.940
creative act

01:02:47.940 --> 01:02:52.200
um so uh yeah and then goal tuning is is

01:02:52.200 --> 01:02:55.380
the actionable step the

01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:58.380
stop

01:03:05.819 --> 01:03:08.720
any other

01:03:09.780 --> 01:03:11.630
I don't know what it is with him today

01:03:11.630 --> 01:03:14.729
[Music]

01:03:21.299 --> 01:03:24.000
I want to say this

01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:27.000
relationships

01:03:27.020 --> 01:03:30.090
[Music]

01:03:32.180 --> 01:03:34.079
[Music]

01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:37.980
in relationships tonight always it's not

01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:40.140
always

01:03:40.140 --> 01:03:41.960
possible

01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:44.880
to make this process explicit they're

01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:46.160
much easier

01:03:46.160 --> 01:03:48.119
formal team

01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:51.119
everybody

01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.880
that's just

01:03:57.880 --> 01:04:00.969
[Applause]

01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:05.220
no

01:04:12.619 --> 01:04:16.520
good boy good

01:04:24.260 --> 01:04:26.819
that's not even put my mute on Can You

01:04:26.819 --> 01:04:29.059
Hear Me

01:04:29.059 --> 01:04:31.200
unfortunately okay

01:04:31.200 --> 01:04:33.420
he's having a conniption that I don't

01:04:33.420 --> 01:04:35.720
know why

01:04:37.220 --> 01:04:40.960
[Music]

01:04:43.700 --> 01:04:47.299
pragmatic imagination

01:04:49.859 --> 01:04:51.660
yeah it's

01:04:51.660 --> 01:04:54.119
interesting thing to think about

01:04:54.119 --> 01:04:57.480
you know how we make that work

01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:00.059
and and why it's actually really really

01:05:00.059 --> 01:05:01.559
fun

01:05:01.559 --> 01:05:04.500
to do it's like calling in certain

01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:08.400
constraints so that possibilities

01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:12.140
become more be more available

01:05:14.339 --> 01:05:17.460
you know you know this is the whole

01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:18.660
Sports thing

01:05:18.660 --> 01:05:21.059
is uh

01:05:21.059 --> 01:05:24.780
I I and writing I wrote down some notes

01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:28.819
and it became really apparent to me

01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:31.980
a couple of lifetimes ago I was a I went

01:05:31.980 --> 01:05:34.079
to college with a um football

01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:35.700
scholarship

01:05:35.700 --> 01:05:38.400
and I was a running back

01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.839
and so I was pray

01:05:42.380 --> 01:05:45.720
and thinking about

01:05:45.720 --> 01:05:50.220
that those experiences and kind of

01:05:50.220 --> 01:05:53.119
moving through this

01:05:53.819 --> 01:05:55.920
um we used to talk about

01:05:55.920 --> 01:05:59.700
we called it the landscape of chance

01:05:59.700 --> 01:06:01.440
because we knew we could either do

01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:04.140
something magical or get really badly

01:06:04.140 --> 01:06:05.839
hurt

01:06:05.839 --> 01:06:08.940
and we used to have conversations about

01:06:08.940 --> 01:06:12.180
what it was like to

01:06:12.180 --> 01:06:14.819
not to know but to know that someone was

01:06:14.819 --> 01:06:16.559
behind you

01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:19.559
and how to how to avoid

01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:22.619
certain postures that you could see out

01:06:22.619 --> 01:06:24.359
of your periphery and only out of your

01:06:24.359 --> 01:06:25.440
periphery

01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:28.380
and then and then moving into a creative

01:06:28.380 --> 01:06:29.880
space

01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:33.500
in relationship to that

01:06:34.020 --> 01:06:36.140
um

01:06:36.720 --> 01:06:39.839
yeah it's been it's I'm just sitting

01:06:39.839 --> 01:06:42.480
here kind of it's been a trip realizing

01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.299
why I used to love to do that

01:06:45.299 --> 01:06:48.480
like like that that sense of creativity

01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:52.200
sense of danger and then this kind of

01:06:52.200 --> 01:06:54.900
unknown landscape

01:06:54.900 --> 01:06:57.660
and and that in relationship to the cat

01:06:57.660 --> 01:07:00.480
at the door I mean it's so freaking

01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:02.280
perfect

01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:05.640
like the imaginal moment when the cat's

01:07:05.640 --> 01:07:08.760
at the door meowing it's like

01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:11.900
It's Kind of Perfect

01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:15.900
yeah I don't know

01:07:15.900 --> 01:07:18.000
if any of that makes sense

01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.460
but I can I can remember when Marie and

01:07:20.460 --> 01:07:22.500
I first met one of the first things we

01:07:22.500 --> 01:07:25.020
did was we got a couple napkins together

01:07:25.020 --> 01:07:28.440
and we started drawing this house

01:07:28.440 --> 01:07:30.720
and how the space would work and why it

01:07:30.720 --> 01:07:32.339
would work like that and who would sit

01:07:32.339 --> 01:07:35.099
where and situating ourselves physically

01:07:35.099 --> 01:07:37.680
in this imagination

01:07:37.680 --> 01:07:40.880
yeah cool

01:07:46.619 --> 01:07:49.220
it's also important when I remember

01:07:49.220 --> 01:07:51.960
working for my boss

01:07:51.960 --> 01:07:55.260
uh if the landscape firm here that we

01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:58.319
built and at first you know it was so

01:07:58.319 --> 01:08:00.480
hard and it was incredibly in debt and

01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:03.119
that thing was and then we started

01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:05.400
paying off our debt getting a good

01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:07.920
reputation started making money

01:08:07.920 --> 01:08:09.780
and

01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:12.299
then this thing Divergent thing happened

01:08:12.299 --> 01:08:15.119
like he was never satisfied he just

01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:16.980
wanted he got you know I thought then

01:08:16.980 --> 01:08:19.679
now we could start doing like uh some

01:08:19.679 --> 01:08:23.279
public works you know like because these

01:08:23.279 --> 01:08:25.259
things I was interested in

01:08:25.259 --> 01:08:27.839
and I just realized and I said I had to

01:08:27.839 --> 01:08:30.299
say to him you know like what you

01:08:30.299 --> 01:08:33.600
imagined what was going to happen and

01:08:33.600 --> 01:08:35.400
what I imagined they're two different

01:08:35.400 --> 01:08:38.460
things like this was a big shocker like

01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:40.620
I worked really really hard to like

01:08:40.620 --> 01:08:42.960
squeeze contractors to pay them so we

01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:44.160
could get to this place where we could

01:08:44.160 --> 01:08:45.719
do this more like I wanted to have a

01:08:45.719 --> 01:08:48.480
landscape Community Guild and

01:08:48.480 --> 01:08:50.460
this wasn't what he of course we never

01:08:50.460 --> 01:08:52.799
talked about it and I noticed I I

01:08:52.799 --> 01:08:54.179
realized like

01:08:54.179 --> 01:08:56.819
I was motivated by something that was

01:08:56.819 --> 01:08:58.400
completely

01:08:58.400 --> 01:09:00.179
uh

01:09:00.179 --> 01:09:01.799
um conflicting with what he was

01:09:01.799 --> 01:09:03.359
motivated by

01:09:03.359 --> 01:09:06.179
even though we were working compatibly

01:09:06.179 --> 01:09:09.120
together to build this thing you know

01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:11.460
um so then of course I just turned

01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:13.920
mid-course and I just tried to make as

01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.140
much money as I could because that's all

01:09:16.140 --> 01:09:18.420
I think that was the game that was being

01:09:18.420 --> 01:09:20.819
played I mean so we did good work we had

01:09:20.819 --> 01:09:22.319
to do good work but

01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:24.600
and then that turned into me imagining

01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:26.219
using the money to have a different

01:09:26.219 --> 01:09:27.719
place and that's why we bought this

01:09:27.719 --> 01:09:31.319
place so I had to I had to export what I

01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:34.460
wanted from my life from that

01:09:34.460 --> 01:09:39.000
imaginary trajectory to a different one

01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:40.679
so

01:09:40.679 --> 01:09:42.920
um

01:09:45.179 --> 01:09:47.160
and then you know that was really hard

01:09:47.160 --> 01:09:48.839
for Sandy at first he couldn't imagine

01:09:48.839 --> 01:09:51.239
it and he wasn't gonna come we were

01:09:51.239 --> 01:09:53.339
going to have two of us you know like

01:09:53.339 --> 01:09:56.699
so this is a big part of

01:09:56.699 --> 01:09:57.540
um

01:09:57.540 --> 01:09:58.800
um you know if you want to talk about

01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:00.900
the collective imaginary we haven't

01:10:00.900 --> 01:10:02.699
talked about the big social imaginary

01:10:02.699 --> 01:10:04.820
but this is a big part of understanding

01:10:04.820 --> 01:10:08.699
Collective imaginary like it's it's like

01:10:08.699 --> 01:10:11.880
it's not it can be a surprise about how

01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:15.179
how little is actually aligned

01:10:15.179 --> 01:10:18.420
in terms of you know you're both sitting

01:10:18.420 --> 01:10:19.980
there in good faith looking in the

01:10:19.980 --> 01:10:23.340
future imagining something and one's

01:10:23.340 --> 01:10:26.120
imagining an orange and the other ones

01:10:26.120 --> 01:10:29.460
imagining a concrete floor you know or

01:10:29.460 --> 01:10:31.699
something

01:10:32.699 --> 01:10:36.860
it seem this seems to like

01:10:37.219 --> 01:10:39.360
right right

01:10:39.360 --> 01:10:42.920
it seems to like uh

01:10:44.159 --> 01:10:47.219
um sort of

01:10:47.219 --> 01:10:50.760
I can see through this process of

01:10:50.760 --> 01:10:53.940
you know imagining and then you know

01:10:53.940 --> 01:10:55.320
making sure you're clear with other

01:10:55.320 --> 01:10:57.239
people about what you're co-imagining

01:10:57.239 --> 01:10:58.800
like

01:10:58.800 --> 01:11:01.260
I'm seeing I don't know if it's true but

01:11:01.260 --> 01:11:04.020
like I'm seeing the process of sort of

01:11:04.020 --> 01:11:05.760
like

01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:09.179
like individuation or like growth you

01:11:09.179 --> 01:11:11.280
know or like you're a person's sort of

01:11:11.280 --> 01:11:14.219
story like the different paths they go

01:11:14.219 --> 01:11:17.100
through and switch to and

01:11:17.100 --> 01:11:18.900
you know they're on this path and then

01:11:18.900 --> 01:11:22.140
oh no I gotta go this way or you

01:11:22.140 --> 01:11:24.060
know that's I don't know yeah

01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:25.860
it just seems to be a path there

01:11:25.860 --> 01:11:28.159
Tennessee

01:11:46.940 --> 01:11:51.239
okay so it's just this is a big part of

01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:54.000
this whole module on imagination it's

01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:57.000
how we

01:11:57.000 --> 01:12:00.000
it it's a big part of our lives that we

01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:02.820
just don't we just don't recognize

01:12:02.820 --> 01:12:06.000
um or talk about in in that way

01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:09.000
um but it is under this this module now

01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.920
I want to go on for another thing this

01:12:10.920 --> 01:12:13.739
is my treat that was the work this is my

01:12:13.739 --> 01:12:14.940
treat

01:12:14.940 --> 01:12:18.380
I could feel that was work right here

01:12:18.380 --> 01:12:22.880
think of all those Concepts okay

01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:25.800
one last thing that's really cool about

01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:28.699
imagination

01:12:29.400 --> 01:12:32.699
and it has actually uh been written

01:12:32.699 --> 01:12:35.040
about in the history of ideas in terms

01:12:35.040 --> 01:12:38.219
of math well we we know when we get to

01:12:38.219 --> 01:12:40.920
math we'll revisit the imagination

01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:44.159
because it's map imagined is it intuited

01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:46.500
these are interesting questions that's

01:12:46.500 --> 01:12:48.900
two modules ahead

01:12:48.900 --> 01:12:50.460
um

01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:51.659
um

01:12:51.659 --> 01:12:54.659
the next module is is much easier in

01:12:54.659 --> 01:12:56.940
terms of it's just more dialogical and

01:12:56.940 --> 01:13:01.080
and playful but math is in reflexivity

01:13:01.080 --> 01:13:03.060
is pretty hard but so we're going to ask

01:13:03.060 --> 01:13:06.060
these questions in terms of like is math

01:13:06.060 --> 01:13:08.699
imagined and stuff like that but one of

01:13:08.699 --> 01:13:10.280
the things that's

01:13:10.280 --> 01:13:12.900
uh very always comes up in the

01:13:12.900 --> 01:13:14.460
literature around

01:13:14.460 --> 01:13:19.620
uh Cosmic cognitive imagination is

01:13:19.620 --> 01:13:21.020
um

01:13:21.020 --> 01:13:25.580
that you can imagine what's not here

01:13:25.580 --> 01:13:29.400
this is something that Roy bashgar was

01:13:29.400 --> 01:13:32.040
fascinated with you can imagine like you

01:13:32.040 --> 01:13:35.880
can he called it you know absence uh and

01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:38.340
let me just give you an example and

01:13:38.340 --> 01:13:40.920
because I want to explain this in our

01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:43.440
animal nature so

01:13:43.440 --> 01:13:45.920
you can train a

01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:49.440
uh police dog

01:13:49.440 --> 01:13:51.840
to walk into a room there's a great I'm

01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:53.400
not going to read it but there's a great

01:13:53.400 --> 01:13:55.440
uh it's a great chapter in this book

01:13:55.440 --> 01:13:59.100
called Adam's task by this velocity Yale

01:13:59.100 --> 01:14:01.440
philosopher and dog trainer Vicki hurt

01:14:01.440 --> 01:14:04.080
and she talks about how you can train a

01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:06.420
police dog to walk into a room the scene

01:14:06.420 --> 01:14:10.260
of the crime this is the situation bro

01:14:10.260 --> 01:14:13.440
um and

01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:17.699
the dog will know who the criminal is

01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:21.420
but that criminal is not there

01:14:21.420 --> 01:14:23.640
and then you can have them go find the

01:14:23.640 --> 01:14:24.480
criminal

01:14:24.480 --> 01:14:27.000
so this is very interesting it's the

01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:30.179
beginning of the knowledge of zero

01:14:30.179 --> 01:14:33.000
the in that you can imagine what is not

01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:36.179
there this sounds trivial because it's

01:14:36.179 --> 01:14:39.480
so easy for us but it's huge in

01:14:39.480 --> 01:14:42.000
cognitive development of through the

01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:43.980
animal kingdom

01:14:43.980 --> 01:14:44.820
um

01:14:44.820 --> 01:14:48.659
and so it takes it's it takes again it's

01:14:48.659 --> 01:14:51.239
like it's a whole body thing it's like

01:14:51.239 --> 01:14:54.360
what is missing

01:14:54.360 --> 01:14:57.080
in the room and

01:14:57.080 --> 01:14:59.940
you know if you say okay you come home

01:14:59.940 --> 01:15:02.159
and you notice that there's a couch is

01:15:02.159 --> 01:15:03.840
not there we're not talking about that

01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:05.760
it's not deductive we're not just

01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:08.400
talking about logical deduction we're

01:15:08.400 --> 01:15:10.199
talking about something quite mysterious

01:15:10.199 --> 01:15:12.900
and wonderful about

01:15:12.900 --> 01:15:16.699
this this

01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:19.560
topic imagination right to imagine

01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:21.120
what's not there

01:15:21.120 --> 01:15:23.820
and so

01:15:23.820 --> 01:15:24.719
um

01:15:24.719 --> 01:15:28.380
um and you see it has to do with

01:15:28.380 --> 01:15:32.100
synesthesia like the smell is there but

01:15:32.100 --> 01:15:34.080
I don't see you know all these things

01:15:34.080 --> 01:15:36.719
we've been talking about it's it's like

01:15:36.719 --> 01:15:40.140
this aesthetically it's not there's

01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:42.780
something not there let's say and then

01:15:42.780 --> 01:15:46.140
there's this great uh work on this guy

01:15:46.140 --> 01:15:49.140
this uh woman did with this parrot named

01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:51.320
Alex

01:15:51.380 --> 01:15:53.600
and um

01:15:53.600 --> 01:15:56.400
she she could

01:15:56.400 --> 01:15:59.280
she could teach Alex she taught him

01:15:59.280 --> 01:16:01.860
colors shapes and numbers

01:16:01.860 --> 01:16:05.460
and she would do she would have like

01:16:05.460 --> 01:16:08.159
let's say two

01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:11.159
two triangles

01:16:11.820 --> 01:16:15.540
and a ball and one of the triangles in

01:16:15.540 --> 01:16:17.580
one of the balls were yellow and the

01:16:17.580 --> 01:16:20.460
other triangle was red

01:16:20.460 --> 01:16:23.280
so when she say

01:16:23.280 --> 01:16:24.239
um

01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:27.719
uh how how how many yellow

01:16:27.719 --> 01:16:30.659
see what she would say two how many ball

01:16:30.659 --> 01:16:33.600
it would say one how many triangle two

01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:37.320
so we could it could cross categories

01:16:37.320 --> 01:16:40.219
right it could it could understand

01:16:40.219 --> 01:16:43.380
categories across types

01:16:43.380 --> 01:16:46.440
this is soon static at its core and she

01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:48.420
got it so it could do five different

01:16:48.420 --> 01:16:51.300
categories in five different shapes and

01:16:51.300 --> 01:16:53.940
five different colors okay those of you

01:16:53.940 --> 01:16:55.800
have played my card game

01:16:55.800 --> 01:16:59.239
will understand this is the foundation

01:16:59.239 --> 01:17:03.719
of pure abstractions okay

01:17:03.719 --> 01:17:08.040
so but the Breakthrough came when let's

01:17:08.040 --> 01:17:09.840
say she'd have

01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:12.480
three triangles

01:17:12.480 --> 01:17:15.239
two of which you know a truck a truck

01:17:15.239 --> 01:17:17.340
yeah let's say she had three triangles

01:17:17.340 --> 01:17:19.380
two of which were blue and one was

01:17:19.380 --> 01:17:20.760
yellow

01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:23.400
and she would say Alex

01:17:23.400 --> 01:17:25.920
how many red

01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:29.420
and he learned the word nothing

01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:35.179
and then one day

01:17:36.120 --> 01:17:39.239
I forget how it goes but one day he she

01:17:39.239 --> 01:17:42.179
he was fussy sometimes he'd get fussy it

01:17:42.179 --> 01:17:44.760
because she was working with data she

01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:47.040
would reproduce many many many times

01:17:47.040 --> 01:17:48.980
because she had to prove it was

01:17:48.980 --> 01:17:52.500
statistically correct and he'd get fussy

01:17:52.500 --> 01:17:55.920
and one day he said she would ask and he

01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:58.679
kept on saying nothing nothing they were

01:17:58.679 --> 01:18:01.739
all wrong answers and she realized he

01:18:01.739 --> 01:18:04.920
was saying nothing I don't I don't want

01:18:04.920 --> 01:18:06.120
to play

01:18:06.120 --> 01:18:08.880
so he had a metaphorical blend with a

01:18:08.880 --> 01:18:13.739
pure abstraction so we can see in the

01:18:13.739 --> 01:18:16.020
animal body

01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:19.260
now the thing that you know all and this

01:18:19.260 --> 01:18:21.719
is what excites me there's so much more

01:18:21.719 --> 01:18:24.000
to explore the animals but we don't know

01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:26.219
how to translate the question into their

01:18:26.219 --> 01:18:29.880
language right so she that's what was

01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:32.400
the beauty of her work he could pack and

01:18:32.400 --> 01:18:35.040
say certain words you know he's actually

01:18:35.040 --> 01:18:37.140
smarter than animals who can sign

01:18:37.140 --> 01:18:41.520
language because his his abstract level

01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:43.860
was deeper than sign language because

01:18:43.860 --> 01:18:46.320
they that's all menaces they learn

01:18:46.320 --> 01:18:47.760
mimetics

01:18:47.760 --> 01:18:50.219
so

01:18:50.219 --> 01:18:54.239
um signing uh chimpses like cha GPT they

01:18:54.239 --> 01:18:57.300
just learn uh the appropriate

01:18:57.300 --> 01:18:58.140
um

01:18:58.140 --> 01:19:01.260
sentence stems to put together it's not

01:19:01.260 --> 01:19:04.140
abstraction and this this this but we

01:19:04.140 --> 01:19:05.400
don't know if they can do abstraction

01:19:05.400 --> 01:19:07.860
because very hard to figure out how to

01:19:07.860 --> 01:19:09.960
ask the question

01:19:09.960 --> 01:19:13.380
okay so we but but this level of

01:19:13.380 --> 01:19:18.000
abstraction is in in the world Okay so

01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:21.900
this that's one little treat to just

01:19:21.900 --> 01:19:23.699
think about

01:19:23.699 --> 01:19:25.380
um and

01:19:25.380 --> 01:19:30.120
um but Roy bashgar said that

01:19:30.120 --> 01:19:33.480
because we live in the real

01:19:33.480 --> 01:19:36.920
we can perceive

01:19:37.500 --> 01:19:42.679
what is not here that should be here

01:19:43.739 --> 01:19:48.780
or we want you know it's not like oh we

01:19:48.780 --> 01:19:51.179
should have it's not a deductive thing

01:19:51.179 --> 01:19:55.140
it's it's it's an arousal state

01:19:55.140 --> 01:19:59.100
it moves you on because there's some

01:19:59.100 --> 01:20:02.040
implicit knowing that

01:20:02.040 --> 01:20:04.260
you have that you have the presence in

01:20:04.260 --> 01:20:06.300
absence he called it it's because we

01:20:06.300 --> 01:20:09.179
live in the real but we they but we

01:20:09.179 --> 01:20:11.340
construct human worlds

01:20:11.340 --> 01:20:13.860
and it's never a perfect match and we

01:20:13.860 --> 01:20:18.659
can imagine we can perceive and it felt

01:20:18.659 --> 01:20:20.460
sense the absence and then we can use

01:20:20.460 --> 01:20:21.960
imagination

01:20:21.960 --> 01:20:24.960
to give it to give it form

01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:27.920
and this is the possibility for

01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:30.300
societal change let's say

01:20:30.300 --> 01:20:33.480
and the the human the human

01:20:33.480 --> 01:20:37.500
um project but again it comes from our

01:20:37.500 --> 01:20:39.900
animal nature it's deeply evolved in our

01:20:39.900 --> 01:20:42.120
animal nature

01:20:42.120 --> 01:20:44.300
um

01:20:52.679 --> 01:20:54.360
does that make sense I mean it's just

01:20:54.360 --> 01:20:56.159
kind of a fact toy that's kind of cool

01:20:56.159 --> 01:20:57.420
Marie yeah

01:20:57.420 --> 01:21:01.260
is it like the more beautiful world our

01:21:01.260 --> 01:21:05.659
hearts know is possible yes

01:21:05.900 --> 01:21:07.560
that's

01:21:07.560 --> 01:21:10.380
and the important thing about like

01:21:10.380 --> 01:21:12.840
putting having a new fear of the body is

01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:13.679
that

01:21:13.679 --> 01:21:16.620
for most people who are cynics they'll

01:21:16.620 --> 01:21:18.480
just say well that's just his imagining

01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:20.820
you know do you see what I'm saying

01:21:20.820 --> 01:21:23.640
we're trying to make people take this

01:21:23.640 --> 01:21:26.520
kind of thing more seriously

01:21:26.520 --> 01:21:29.159
by attempting to

01:21:29.159 --> 01:21:32.159
yeah have a new theory of the body

01:21:32.159 --> 01:21:33.620
yeah

01:21:33.620 --> 01:21:37.260
which is a imaginative but we need a new

01:21:37.260 --> 01:21:38.820
theory of the body

01:21:38.820 --> 01:21:41.580
so

01:21:41.580 --> 01:21:42.840
um

01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:43.980
yeah

01:21:43.980 --> 01:21:46.140
so Roy Bhaskar actually you know

01:21:46.140 --> 01:21:47.880
critical realist that was his big

01:21:47.880 --> 01:21:50.100
critique about Wilbur's system because

01:21:50.100 --> 01:21:53.520
Wilbur only had a taxonomy of what was

01:21:53.520 --> 01:21:56.159
he had no way to have a taxonomy of what

01:21:56.159 --> 01:21:59.120
could be the case

01:22:00.120 --> 01:22:03.480
so he he called uh interval Theory

01:22:03.480 --> 01:22:06.739
metaphysics of presence

01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:18.540
in this Maps directly on

01:22:18.540 --> 01:22:21.060
our theory of complex potential States

01:22:21.060 --> 01:22:23.640
because potentials

01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:25.920
are what could have been historically

01:22:25.920 --> 01:22:30.380
otherwise but are not yet

01:22:47.940 --> 01:22:51.179
I might be jumping ahead again but it

01:22:51.179 --> 01:22:53.640
feels like

01:22:53.640 --> 01:22:58.219
what's not here is a moral body

01:23:04.800 --> 01:23:08.580
a collective moral body yes and of

01:23:08.580 --> 01:23:12.360
course you're very you're very uh you're

01:23:12.360 --> 01:23:14.040
very clever you're very intuitive

01:23:14.040 --> 01:23:15.719
because

01:23:15.719 --> 01:23:20.159
what do people think what faculty

01:23:20.159 --> 01:23:22.199
do people think

01:23:22.199 --> 01:23:25.520
morality comes from

01:23:30.719 --> 01:23:34.440
well I think it comes from up top but

01:23:34.440 --> 01:23:37.140
I'm feeling sitting here that it comes

01:23:37.140 --> 01:23:40.040
from down low

01:23:40.140 --> 01:23:42.780
yeah it has an intuitive kind of talked

01:23:42.780 --> 01:23:44.760
about the moral intuition that's for

01:23:44.760 --> 01:23:49.080
sure but it also is we have to use our

01:23:49.080 --> 01:23:50.340
imagination

01:23:50.340 --> 01:23:52.739
and this is not what people think about

01:23:52.739 --> 01:23:54.719
like what do you mean you do you make it

01:23:54.719 --> 01:23:57.540
up no that's not what we're saying you

01:23:57.540 --> 01:24:00.360
don't it's not right

01:24:00.360 --> 01:24:02.100
um

01:24:02.100 --> 01:24:04.380
well you have to use empathic projection

01:24:04.380 --> 01:24:06.719
which is in the imagination for one

01:24:06.719 --> 01:24:08.040
thing

01:24:08.040 --> 01:24:09.120
um

01:24:09.120 --> 01:24:15.739
um so there's a lot in this foreign

01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:20.820
we have to make the distinction because

01:24:20.820 --> 01:24:22.800
if we're if we're going to say along

01:24:22.800 --> 01:24:24.960
with the post-modernists yeah there's a

01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:27.420
lot of imagination in that we don't want

01:24:27.420 --> 01:24:29.280
it to be debunked because it's just

01:24:29.280 --> 01:24:31.500
imagination it's just your imagination

01:24:31.500 --> 01:24:34.219
they would say

01:24:40.080 --> 01:24:44.659
but neither is more morality scientific

01:24:45.360 --> 01:24:48.360
or like you know the way it's going out

01:24:48.360 --> 01:24:50.880
AI is going to adjudicate all moral

01:24:50.880 --> 01:24:53.880
social questions

01:24:53.880 --> 01:24:55.860
because they think it's information and

01:24:55.860 --> 01:24:58.679
data driven and utilitarian

01:24:58.679 --> 01:25:00.900
that's what the self-driving cars do do

01:25:00.900 --> 01:25:02.699
I kill this one or do I go over here and

01:25:02.699 --> 01:25:03.960
kill the driver

01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:06.960
I think the only way to make

01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:10.560
self-driving cars moral is for the car

01:25:10.560 --> 01:25:14.540
to always kill the car owner

01:25:16.199 --> 01:25:18.000
because that means the car owners should

01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:21.020
drive the car

01:25:21.020 --> 01:25:24.540
no it's true this is actually the only

01:25:24.540 --> 01:25:26.120
moral

01:25:26.120 --> 01:25:28.739
more a choice

01:25:28.739 --> 01:25:31.679
it should always choose to kill the car

01:25:31.679 --> 01:25:34.080
owner you see what happens then right

01:25:34.080 --> 01:25:37.679
not saying that I'm saying then you

01:25:37.679 --> 01:25:39.239
would take responsibility for driving

01:25:39.239 --> 01:25:41.880
the car and not abdicated to the

01:25:41.880 --> 01:25:45.260
AI that's the only moral stance for

01:25:45.260 --> 01:25:48.679
self-driving cars

01:25:51.120 --> 01:25:53.100
everything else is just computational

01:25:53.100 --> 01:25:55.380
trade-offs to kill you know you can

01:25:55.380 --> 01:25:58.320
Google ran one when they were into first

01:25:58.320 --> 01:26:00.300
into self-driving cars you could go

01:26:00.300 --> 01:26:01.980
online they have crowdsourcing answers

01:26:01.980 --> 01:26:04.440
do you kill the young guy with a

01:26:04.440 --> 01:26:07.800
criminal record those the local

01:26:07.800 --> 01:26:13.380
librarian with severe arthritis or the

01:26:13.380 --> 01:26:15.659
uh immigrant

01:26:15.659 --> 01:26:18.420
um the legal immigrant pushing uh you

01:26:18.420 --> 01:26:21.360
know pushing a baby across who do you

01:26:21.360 --> 01:26:23.639
kill and people would just like you

01:26:23.639 --> 01:26:25.380
should see the data I mean people would

01:26:25.380 --> 01:26:27.179
actually be able to make choices I'm

01:26:27.179 --> 01:26:29.520
like what the why doesn't that just

01:26:29.520 --> 01:26:31.920
blow your mind like I don't know who I

01:26:31.920 --> 01:26:33.960
kill I'd wait till the moment comes up

01:26:33.960 --> 01:26:36.060
and then the situation would present

01:26:36.060 --> 01:26:37.100
itself

01:26:37.100 --> 01:26:41.219
this is why the the thinking around this

01:26:41.219 --> 01:26:43.380
is crazy it was crowdsourced what people

01:26:43.380 --> 01:26:45.480
think well they're gonna kill like the

01:26:45.480 --> 01:26:47.280
black guy with the Crim that walked out

01:26:47.280 --> 01:26:50.460
of out of prison a thousand times before

01:26:50.460 --> 01:26:52.440
they killed the suited accountant

01:26:52.440 --> 01:26:56.400
because this is a completely biased

01:26:56.400 --> 01:26:59.940
Society you can't crowdsource that but

01:26:59.940 --> 01:27:02.580
so that only moral choice is for the car

01:27:02.580 --> 01:27:04.320
to kill

01:27:04.320 --> 01:27:07.020
the owner of the car

01:27:07.020 --> 01:27:09.840
it's it's it's simple it doesn't come

01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:13.020
from from logic it comes from moral

01:27:13.020 --> 01:27:15.500
intuition

01:27:19.440 --> 01:27:22.400
does that make sense

01:27:24.300 --> 01:27:26.760
but we get all caught up in the in the

01:27:26.760 --> 01:27:29.100
frame of the debate and we think let's

01:27:29.100 --> 01:27:31.560
do this calculus and it's Democrat it's

01:27:31.560 --> 01:27:34.159
ridiculous

01:27:40.020 --> 01:27:41.880
it's just like who should be the first

01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:44.580
person to get killed in a war

01:27:44.580 --> 01:27:47.159
the president United States

01:27:47.159 --> 01:27:49.739
it's a no-brainer

01:27:49.739 --> 01:27:52.440
it makes sense but the person in the car

01:27:52.440 --> 01:27:54.000
if he dies is going to go on and kill

01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:56.460
that other person too

01:27:56.460 --> 01:27:58.440
yeah but then you could you could make

01:27:58.440 --> 01:28:01.280
some safety no no what would happen is

01:28:01.280 --> 01:28:04.260
no that's not what I mean the car would

01:28:04.260 --> 01:28:07.500
drive itself into an embankment or over

01:28:07.500 --> 01:28:10.100
a cliff or something like that yeah yeah

01:28:10.100 --> 01:28:14.280
rather than you know exactly in these

01:28:14.280 --> 01:28:15.960
type of medical situations yeah it's not

01:28:15.960 --> 01:28:18.260
like you give them a heart attack

01:28:18.260 --> 01:28:21.320
no no

01:28:21.980 --> 01:28:25.040
or something

01:28:27.540 --> 01:28:29.699
so that's part of a different kind of

01:28:29.699 --> 01:28:32.100
moral imagination it's not a calculus

01:28:32.100 --> 01:28:33.960
it's like feeling Into The Human

01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:36.179
Condition going through these processes

01:28:36.179 --> 01:28:39.000
being skeptical about

01:28:39.000 --> 01:28:41.820
the mentalization or deductive logic

01:28:41.820 --> 01:28:46.199
with morality it's not it's it's not how

01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:48.900
it works it's not Evolution doesn't make

01:28:48.900 --> 01:28:51.300
any evolutionary sense it's not grounded

01:28:51.300 --> 01:28:54.540
in The evolutionary native intelligence

01:28:54.540 --> 01:28:57.860
of the human animal

01:29:01.679 --> 01:29:03.780
so I don't know if this is the same

01:29:03.780 --> 01:29:08.120
thing but what you're what I'm

01:29:08.760 --> 01:29:12.120
um becoming curious about are the ways

01:29:12.120 --> 01:29:15.179
in which certain cultural codes have

01:29:15.179 --> 01:29:16.980
evolved

01:29:16.980 --> 01:29:17.940
um

01:29:17.940 --> 01:29:19.560
specifically on thinking about

01:29:19.560 --> 01:29:23.159
traditional societies that have

01:29:23.159 --> 01:29:27.600
um a certain order to who eats

01:29:27.600 --> 01:29:30.120
um that if

01:29:30.120 --> 01:29:33.960
if if if like unpacked you get a system

01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:36.120
for

01:29:36.120 --> 01:29:40.860
um knowing in times of famine that the

01:29:40.860 --> 01:29:43.739
the the cultural the culture will be

01:29:43.739 --> 01:29:45.659
able to

01:29:45.659 --> 01:29:48.719
um perpetuate itself and carry on

01:29:48.719 --> 01:29:50.400
and

01:29:50.400 --> 01:29:55.139
is that is that a similar thing

01:29:55.139 --> 01:29:58.500
yeah except it's you know it's evolved

01:29:58.500 --> 01:30:01.679
through unconscious processes and then

01:30:01.679 --> 01:30:04.380
ritualized in the it you know so like

01:30:04.380 --> 01:30:07.020
maybe they're rich people now but they

01:30:07.020 --> 01:30:09.659
still follow this this cultural ritual

01:30:09.659 --> 01:30:13.139
order so it becomes symbolic

01:30:13.139 --> 01:30:14.639
um

01:30:14.639 --> 01:30:17.880
it's not computational in the sense that

01:30:17.880 --> 01:30:20.340
it's just evolved through long

01:30:20.340 --> 01:30:22.679
progression

01:30:22.679 --> 01:30:24.739
um

01:30:25.199 --> 01:30:27.540
but

01:30:27.540 --> 01:30:29.940
um like my grandmother who would always

01:30:29.940 --> 01:30:33.480
take the wing for herself yeah

01:30:33.480 --> 01:30:36.000
yeah but she she probably didn't know

01:30:36.000 --> 01:30:37.699
why she was doing that

01:30:37.699 --> 01:30:40.920
that's just the way it was done but if

01:30:40.920 --> 01:30:44.159
it could be traced back to the The

01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:49.800
Source was there it yeah I guess I'm

01:30:49.800 --> 01:30:54.840
I'm trying to think of and how the moral

01:30:54.840 --> 01:31:00.920
intuition was at play in creating these

01:31:01.260 --> 01:31:02.340
um

01:31:02.340 --> 01:31:05.760
like before it became ritualized yeah so

01:31:05.760 --> 01:31:09.480
we would call this that there's very

01:31:09.480 --> 01:31:14.159
strong pro-social Norms in animals and

01:31:14.159 --> 01:31:16.340
in people

01:31:16.340 --> 01:31:18.300
and

01:31:18.300 --> 01:31:21.139
um these Norms become codified

01:31:21.139 --> 01:31:25.679
as moral rules or taboos a lot of times

01:31:25.679 --> 01:31:28.739
they're codified as negatives you don't

01:31:28.739 --> 01:31:32.340
eat before or you know as taboos and

01:31:32.340 --> 01:31:36.120
then they become ritualized as culture

01:31:36.120 --> 01:31:39.300
um so nowhere here have we talked about

01:31:39.300 --> 01:31:41.940
moral imagination

01:31:41.940 --> 01:31:43.800
um but

01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:47.400
if the situation changes you see if we

01:31:47.400 --> 01:31:52.580
had no moral imagination then eventually

01:31:53.699 --> 01:31:55.860
our the culture would do what it would

01:31:55.860 --> 01:31:58.199
have to do because only those things

01:31:58.199 --> 01:32:02.760
that made sense would survive but we're

01:32:02.760 --> 01:32:05.400
trying to use other faculties we have

01:32:05.400 --> 01:32:08.880
today to make what was implicit

01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:12.060
the evolution of pro-social norms

01:32:12.060 --> 01:32:15.239
explicit can we use our imaginations

01:32:15.239 --> 01:32:18.480
because everything is is accelerated and

01:32:18.480 --> 01:32:20.159
maybe it doesn't make sense for this one

01:32:20.159 --> 01:32:23.520
to eat the wing anymore

01:32:23.520 --> 01:32:27.420
um but normal cultural Evolution

01:32:27.420 --> 01:32:28.500
um

01:32:28.500 --> 01:32:30.840
you know biological evolution is still

01:32:30.840 --> 01:32:33.000
slow so we're trying to use moral

01:32:33.000 --> 01:32:35.159
imagination to accelerate

01:32:35.159 --> 01:32:37.800
the process but still use our bodily

01:32:37.800 --> 01:32:40.860
felt sin so it still got this natural

01:32:40.860 --> 01:32:43.699
intelligence

01:32:48.960 --> 01:32:52.340
so is it like

01:32:52.679 --> 01:32:55.260
I'm just looking at this this sequence

01:32:55.260 --> 01:32:57.659
we went through earlier and

01:32:57.659 --> 01:33:02.780
I can see how potentially like this

01:33:02.780 --> 01:33:05.400
moral piece

01:33:05.400 --> 01:33:08.219
if if we follow

01:33:08.219 --> 01:33:10.020
that sequence from The Situation Room

01:33:10.020 --> 01:33:14.219
search space Etc if we follow it from

01:33:14.219 --> 01:33:17.100
like a dispositional state or two to an

01:33:17.100 --> 01:33:18.060
affect

01:33:18.060 --> 01:33:20.760
that the moral part would be based on

01:33:20.760 --> 01:33:22.980
some sort of

01:33:22.980 --> 01:33:26.699
um up hierarchy that is is is fitting

01:33:26.699 --> 01:33:28.739
with what's actually happening

01:33:28.739 --> 01:33:30.480
like and that goes back to what you said

01:33:30.480 --> 01:33:32.100
with those cars like

01:33:32.100 --> 01:33:33.600
you don't know what you're going to do

01:33:33.600 --> 01:33:35.340
in the situation unless you're there and

01:33:35.340 --> 01:33:37.199
then that's the most accurate place to

01:33:37.199 --> 01:33:39.500
go from

01:33:42.020 --> 01:33:44.580
yeah and of course

01:33:44.580 --> 01:33:46.679
it's good to do thought of thought

01:33:46.679 --> 01:33:48.659
experience when you're first learning

01:33:48.659 --> 01:33:51.239
how to drive you can tell you have these

01:33:51.239 --> 01:33:52.920
little ideas like if that happened to me

01:33:52.920 --> 01:33:56.219
then I would do this like God forbid I

01:33:56.219 --> 01:33:58.500
would kill so you know you you you set

01:33:58.500 --> 01:34:00.900
up little scenarios but what's

01:34:00.900 --> 01:34:03.420
impossible to do is what Google was

01:34:03.420 --> 01:34:06.179
trying to do is codify all the scenarios

01:34:06.179 --> 01:34:08.340
for all time so that they could train

01:34:08.340 --> 01:34:11.159
the AI to do that and and so that's what

01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:15.060
makes it ridiculous not not that we

01:34:15.060 --> 01:34:16.380
don't

01:34:16.380 --> 01:34:19.679
um we don't

01:34:19.679 --> 01:34:22.620
um I remember for example learning that

01:34:22.620 --> 01:34:24.600
when you're skating on ice we used to

01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.540
have to go down this really uh steep

01:34:27.540 --> 01:34:30.600
curvy Road my father told me like every

01:34:30.600 --> 01:34:32.460
impulse in your body is going to want to

01:34:32.460 --> 01:34:35.820
put on your brakes but don't just just

01:34:35.820 --> 01:34:38.219
if you have to go fast just go fast and

01:34:38.219 --> 01:34:39.600
remember that happened to me one time I

01:34:39.600 --> 01:34:40.920
put it on breaks and it started to

01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:43.020
swerve and I just rode that roller

01:34:43.020 --> 01:34:44.340
coaster down I mean that's not like

01:34:44.340 --> 01:34:46.920
killing somebody but you do go through

01:34:46.920 --> 01:34:48.320
some

01:34:48.320 --> 01:34:50.719
Preparatory uh

01:34:50.719 --> 01:34:54.540
reflexivity so that you can prepare that

01:34:54.540 --> 01:34:56.820
simulating hypothetical environments so

01:34:56.820 --> 01:35:00.179
but but Google thoughts if you put train

01:35:00.179 --> 01:35:03.120
the AI on it and it crowdsourced it then

01:35:03.120 --> 01:35:05.760
of course this is what you have to do to

01:35:05.760 --> 01:35:08.639
you have to you have to cut you have to

01:35:08.639 --> 01:35:11.580
code into the car what it should do in

01:35:11.580 --> 01:35:13.520
all possible cases because it can't

01:35:13.520 --> 01:35:16.739
imagine what it should do on the spot

01:35:16.739 --> 01:35:19.980
like Ray was saying just like just get a

01:35:19.980 --> 01:35:22.020
Gestalt of what's happening and then do

01:35:22.020 --> 01:35:23.580
something

01:35:23.580 --> 01:35:24.719
um

01:35:24.719 --> 01:35:30.000
um so now power all these AI assisted

01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:31.440
things like

01:35:31.440 --> 01:35:33.600
um the computer helps the brakes not

01:35:33.600 --> 01:35:36.300
lock and all this stuff is is good but

01:35:36.300 --> 01:35:38.880
it's just the the thought of trying to

01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:42.960
train AI to make moral decisions uh for

01:35:42.960 --> 01:35:44.820
once and for all

01:35:44.820 --> 01:35:45.600
um

01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:47.940
it just doesn't understand the human

01:35:47.940 --> 01:35:49.980
condition or what it is to be a moral

01:35:49.980 --> 01:35:52.199
animal you know which is Our obligation

01:35:52.199 --> 01:35:53.880
so

01:35:53.880 --> 01:35:56.540
um yeah

01:35:58.020 --> 01:35:59.930
I got one other three

01:35:59.930 --> 01:36:03.169
[Music]

01:36:04.800 --> 01:36:06.719
with this module

01:36:06.719 --> 01:36:08.780
uh

01:36:14.639 --> 01:36:18.659
okay so so this notion of absence right

01:36:18.659 --> 01:36:21.540
is kind of interesting and then go so

01:36:21.540 --> 01:36:25.500
now I want to say one other thing

01:36:25.500 --> 01:36:27.179
um

01:36:27.179 --> 01:36:29.520
this kind of happens has to be with

01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.159
perception

01:36:32.159 --> 01:36:33.480
um but

01:36:33.480 --> 01:36:35.400
so

01:36:35.400 --> 01:36:36.780
um

01:36:36.780 --> 01:36:39.600
I don't have my my hardcore Buddhists in

01:36:39.600 --> 01:36:42.120
the room so No One's Gonna push back on

01:36:42.120 --> 01:36:44.040
what I'm gonna say

01:36:44.040 --> 01:36:48.300
um but there's an esoteric

01:36:48.300 --> 01:36:49.500
um

01:36:49.500 --> 01:36:53.639
debate in the traditions of whether or

01:36:53.639 --> 01:36:56.900
not you can experience

01:36:56.900 --> 01:36:59.280
the void

01:36:59.280 --> 01:37:02.820
whether you imagine you experience the

01:37:02.820 --> 01:37:04.560
void

01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:08.280
um and it's unresolved even in the

01:37:08.280 --> 01:37:09.780
Traditions

01:37:09.780 --> 01:37:10.860
um

01:37:10.860 --> 01:37:13.020
um so for example

01:37:13.020 --> 01:37:15.300
when you wake up from Deep dream with

01:37:15.300 --> 01:37:19.739
sleep you know you've been sleeping

01:37:19.739 --> 01:37:22.980
because you experience

01:37:22.980 --> 01:37:25.199
the waking up

01:37:25.199 --> 01:37:27.780
you don't know you experienced it until

01:37:27.780 --> 01:37:30.239
you wake up but the body goes through

01:37:30.239 --> 01:37:32.580
the waking up process and hence your

01:37:32.580 --> 01:37:36.000
mind can infer that you were sleeping

01:37:36.000 --> 01:37:37.980
and

01:37:37.980 --> 01:37:40.440
um some people

01:37:40.440 --> 01:37:44.639
say that you can be you can lucid dream

01:37:44.639 --> 01:37:46.020
and stuff but

01:37:46.020 --> 01:37:50.400
in deep meditative States you actually

01:37:50.400 --> 01:37:54.360
um so the the the there's there's h on

01:37:54.360 --> 01:38:00.179
us the the genre before the last one is

01:38:00.179 --> 01:38:03.480
the perception of nothing in the last

01:38:03.480 --> 01:38:05.400
genre is neither perception or

01:38:05.400 --> 01:38:07.920
non-perception anyways I just want to

01:38:07.920 --> 01:38:12.540
say this is that one of the things

01:38:12.540 --> 01:38:15.000
like I said this is not really

01:38:15.000 --> 01:38:16.320
I think

01:38:16.320 --> 01:38:18.060
helpful for people who aren't here

01:38:18.060 --> 01:38:19.440
because I don't have my hardcore police

01:38:19.440 --> 01:38:20.760
here but

01:38:20.760 --> 01:38:22.620
one of the things we need to know is

01:38:22.620 --> 01:38:25.920
that the perception of an absence

01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:29.219
is not the same as the absence of a

01:38:29.219 --> 01:38:33.900
perception okay so I may be

01:38:33.900 --> 01:38:36.960
um not perceiving

01:38:36.960 --> 01:38:40.500
my car down in the driveway right now

01:38:40.500 --> 01:38:44.040
I'm imagining it right so there's many

01:38:44.040 --> 01:38:46.320
things we're not perceiving right now

01:38:46.320 --> 01:38:49.560
that's the absence of a perception

01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:52.520
there's many many things that are absent

01:38:52.520 --> 01:38:55.580
right now

01:38:55.800 --> 01:38:58.199
but we do have this

01:38:58.199 --> 01:39:00.540
quality that we talked about of

01:39:00.540 --> 01:39:03.840
perceiving an absence

01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:06.600
so the app the perception of an absence

01:39:06.600 --> 01:39:08.880
what we were talking about before what

01:39:08.880 --> 01:39:10.320
is not here

01:39:10.320 --> 01:39:12.719
uh it's not the same as the absence of

01:39:12.719 --> 01:39:15.560
perception

01:39:16.020 --> 01:39:19.020
um so just gonna leave you with that's

01:39:19.020 --> 01:39:21.480
like a co-on

01:39:21.480 --> 01:39:23.600
um

01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:26.460
but

01:39:26.460 --> 01:39:28.639
okay

01:39:33.080 --> 01:39:36.360
like the dog does not

01:39:36.360 --> 01:39:38.520
see the person there

01:39:38.520 --> 01:39:41.219
that is absent the visual perception of

01:39:41.219 --> 01:39:44.040
the person but he perceives

01:39:44.040 --> 01:39:45.900
the absence

01:39:45.900 --> 01:39:49.199
with this other quality of

01:39:49.199 --> 01:39:51.780
it's just the way the imagination works

01:39:51.780 --> 01:39:54.739
with perception

01:39:55.620 --> 01:39:57.320
like the cat

01:39:57.320 --> 01:39:59.820
imagining what's on the other side of

01:39:59.820 --> 01:40:02.120
the door

01:40:05.580 --> 01:40:08.000
oh

01:40:10.159 --> 01:40:12.239
anyways that's a little just a

01:40:12.239 --> 01:40:13.800
dingleberry

01:40:13.800 --> 01:40:15.860
um

01:40:25.520 --> 01:40:29.280
no go go so I can imagine

01:40:29.280 --> 01:40:33.120
being part of the one root system

01:40:33.120 --> 01:40:35.820
of all the trees

01:40:35.820 --> 01:40:39.120
and while and I'm absent so it's it's

01:40:39.120 --> 01:40:42.659
the in and the outer almost that I'm the

01:40:42.659 --> 01:40:45.300
in out in out and boundaries

01:40:45.300 --> 01:40:48.420
non-boundary dual non-dual it's almost

01:40:48.420 --> 01:40:51.780
that movement of in and out that I don't

01:40:51.780 --> 01:40:53.639
know if that's what I'm sensing but I'm

01:40:53.639 --> 01:40:58.260
also wondering something here about them

01:40:58.520 --> 01:41:01.440
the the perception

01:41:01.440 --> 01:41:04.500
and the intuition there's almost like um

01:41:04.500 --> 01:41:06.960
a movement between those and an

01:41:06.960 --> 01:41:09.659
attention point between intention and

01:41:09.659 --> 01:41:12.179
perception it's like a it's a it can be

01:41:12.179 --> 01:41:14.300
wide and it can be very narrow almost

01:41:14.300 --> 01:41:18.600
overlapping I don't know and yeah we're

01:41:18.600 --> 01:41:20.760
talking about biomarkers last time and

01:41:20.760 --> 01:41:22.320
you were talking about your upper lip

01:41:22.320 --> 01:41:24.900
that and I think Holly was talking about

01:41:24.900 --> 01:41:29.280
that when something arises she was her

01:41:29.280 --> 01:41:31.620
senses were heightened and you were

01:41:31.620 --> 01:41:33.540
talking about your upper lip that it was

01:41:33.540 --> 01:41:35.880
something happening in that area so I'm

01:41:35.880 --> 01:41:39.239
very curious here about something that

01:41:39.239 --> 01:41:42.600
it's almost like an alignment of one one

01:41:42.600 --> 01:41:45.600
alignment that it's like and then it's

01:41:45.600 --> 01:41:47.159
there

01:41:47.159 --> 01:41:49.739
and then you can separate it again

01:41:49.739 --> 01:41:52.199
I don't know yeah no there's this

01:41:52.199 --> 01:41:53.760
interesting we didn't talk about there

01:41:53.760 --> 01:41:56.040
are biomarkers

01:41:56.040 --> 01:41:58.080
um like so

01:41:58.080 --> 01:42:01.199
I mean if I'm working on a painting how

01:42:01.199 --> 01:42:03.420
do I know it's not finished

01:42:03.420 --> 01:42:04.739
like

01:42:04.739 --> 01:42:07.860
I don't know what it's lacking

01:42:07.860 --> 01:42:11.940
but I kind of know it's not finished

01:42:11.940 --> 01:42:14.159
um and that's that's a feeling there's a

01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:17.100
biomarker for that I'm not very good at

01:42:17.100 --> 01:42:19.800
it like like

01:42:19.800 --> 01:42:23.820
I don't have a very strong intuition for

01:42:23.820 --> 01:42:27.239
I usually under do it

01:42:27.239 --> 01:42:30.000
um because then I get I'm a coward and

01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:33.300
I don't want to I don't want to put some

01:42:33.300 --> 01:42:35.760
another mistake up

01:42:35.760 --> 01:42:38.880
um but that's so there's a for me

01:42:38.880 --> 01:42:40.860
there's a strong biomarker in that

01:42:40.860 --> 01:42:42.540
process

01:42:42.540 --> 01:42:45.260
um and and I I'm I'm having

01:42:45.260 --> 01:42:47.520
satisfactorily figured out

01:42:47.520 --> 01:42:51.719
how to get to the state of satisfaction

01:42:51.719 --> 01:42:53.760
um so

01:42:53.760 --> 01:42:54.840
um

01:42:54.840 --> 01:42:57.360
if I would suspect that when you train a

01:42:57.360 --> 01:42:59.340
dog the interesting thing about training

01:42:59.340 --> 01:43:02.820
a dog to scent is that people don't have

01:43:02.820 --> 01:43:05.400
the the they don't we don't have we

01:43:05.400 --> 01:43:08.100
don't scent we smell we don't scent

01:43:08.100 --> 01:43:10.860
and so you have to communicate in

01:43:10.860 --> 01:43:12.780
interesting ways but

01:43:12.780 --> 01:43:15.719
I'm I because we don't have a biomarker

01:43:15.719 --> 01:43:18.179
for something so I assume the dog has a

01:43:18.179 --> 01:43:20.699
strong biomarker oh that's that's what

01:43:20.699 --> 01:43:22.380
it feels like when what I'm looking for

01:43:22.380 --> 01:43:23.840
is not here

01:43:23.840 --> 01:43:26.880
right so

01:43:26.880 --> 01:43:29.340
um yeah and then when that happens when

01:43:29.340 --> 01:43:31.320
you have very strong biomarkers and you

01:43:31.320 --> 01:43:32.400
know what they mean that's called

01:43:32.400 --> 01:43:34.139
intuition

01:43:34.139 --> 01:43:36.900
I have a very strong biomarker

01:43:36.900 --> 01:43:39.719
this biomarker every time it shows up

01:43:39.719 --> 01:43:42.179
it's related to this kind of thing so I

01:43:42.179 --> 01:43:44.280
know this kind of thing is

01:43:44.280 --> 01:43:47.159
in The Situation Room

01:43:47.159 --> 01:43:49.560
yeah it's like becoming sick I became

01:43:49.560 --> 01:43:51.179
sick last week because I was swimming

01:43:51.179 --> 01:43:53.699
for two hours in the pool and the water

01:43:53.699 --> 01:43:56.400
was cold and I felt in my body I have to

01:43:56.400 --> 01:43:58.380
stop now but I just went off for another

01:43:58.380 --> 01:44:01.380
hour and I got sick I was my biomarker

01:44:01.380 --> 01:44:05.639
it's like just it hits me like a like a

01:44:05.639 --> 01:44:07.860
lightning and it's that deep knowing you

01:44:07.860 --> 01:44:10.320
have to stop now and then pushing

01:44:10.320 --> 01:44:12.179
through that with strong will actually

01:44:12.179 --> 01:44:15.840
just screws me up and I'm realizing how

01:44:15.840 --> 01:44:19.739
how subtle that space actually is and

01:44:19.739 --> 01:44:23.699
how much space there is to actually

01:44:23.699 --> 01:44:27.659
listen to It's very yeah those those are

01:44:27.659 --> 01:44:29.580
I used to ride the train into New York

01:44:29.580 --> 01:44:33.900
City and coming home if I was tired I

01:44:33.900 --> 01:44:37.260
knew I was going to get sick I I had a

01:44:37.260 --> 01:44:38.940
certain it was like tiredness but it was

01:44:38.940 --> 01:44:41.100
something else so that's what intuition

01:44:41.100 --> 01:44:44.300
is is is a deep pattern in a situation

01:44:44.300 --> 01:44:47.400
that you recognize the feeling tone of

01:44:47.400 --> 01:44:49.199
it and it's reliable because we talk

01:44:49.199 --> 01:44:52.320
about intuition being reliable

01:44:52.320 --> 01:44:56.219
and then sometimes you even say okay

01:44:56.219 --> 01:44:58.739
ah there's actually

01:44:58.739 --> 01:45:01.080
um make a distinction it this feels a

01:45:01.080 --> 01:45:02.460
little different than this and that's

01:45:02.460 --> 01:45:04.139
why this is associated with something a

01:45:04.139 --> 01:45:06.060
little different than that

01:45:06.060 --> 01:45:10.080
um but uh yeah

01:45:10.080 --> 01:45:14.400
um and that's the that's you know why

01:45:14.400 --> 01:45:16.199
don't we talked a lot today but one of

01:45:16.199 --> 01:45:18.360
the purposes of doing the initial

01:45:18.360 --> 01:45:21.119
exercises and Imagination is so you can

01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:22.940
know when you're using your imagination

01:45:22.940 --> 01:45:27.659
versus using your intuition versus

01:45:27.659 --> 01:45:28.560
um

01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:29.400
um

01:45:29.400 --> 01:45:31.860
you know I think we all know when we're

01:45:31.860 --> 01:45:34.020
even like Matt said he could tell he's

01:45:34.020 --> 01:45:35.880
getting all heady like we know when the

01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:39.239
mind is is gotten like mind candy over

01:45:39.239 --> 01:45:40.560
something

01:45:40.560 --> 01:45:44.400
um so that we we have some some

01:45:44.400 --> 01:45:47.699
uh technique over the instrument that

01:45:47.699 --> 01:45:50.360
that we are

01:45:50.760 --> 01:45:52.560
um but in the end like you were saying

01:45:52.560 --> 01:45:54.420
once you start looking if you're really

01:45:54.420 --> 01:45:56.520
really sensitive there everything's

01:45:56.520 --> 01:45:57.600
functioning

01:45:57.600 --> 01:45:59.159
when everything's functioning at the

01:45:59.159 --> 01:46:02.880
same time in in a very aligned way uh

01:46:02.880 --> 01:46:05.280
it's not easy to separate them we're

01:46:05.280 --> 01:46:08.159
doing we're consciously separating them

01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:10.619
by using terms and pointing instructions

01:46:10.619 --> 01:46:12.900
and stuff like that

01:46:12.900 --> 01:46:14.900
um

01:46:17.840 --> 01:46:20.219
do you have time for one more question

01:46:20.219 --> 01:46:23.400
on the intuition yeah

01:46:23.400 --> 01:46:26.159
dude does it

01:46:26.159 --> 01:46:27.239
um

01:46:27.239 --> 01:46:29.040
like is there

01:46:29.040 --> 01:46:31.380
in terms of learning about it and

01:46:31.380 --> 01:46:32.639
learning

01:46:32.639 --> 01:46:36.480
um developing it I guess like is there

01:46:36.480 --> 01:46:39.719
I assume it works both ways where if you

01:46:39.719 --> 01:46:42.719
follow your intuition you learn oh this

01:46:42.719 --> 01:46:46.020
is the way to follow it or if you don't

01:46:46.020 --> 01:46:47.699
follow it that also

01:46:47.699 --> 01:46:50.460
helps you learn about your intuition but

01:46:50.460 --> 01:46:53.580
is there like a more preferable one like

01:46:53.580 --> 01:46:55.260
yeah

01:46:55.260 --> 01:46:57.239
okay

01:46:57.239 --> 01:46:59.580
okay you can't you can follow your

01:46:59.580 --> 01:47:01.619
imagination you can't follow your

01:47:01.619 --> 01:47:03.840
intuition

01:47:03.840 --> 01:47:07.320
what you what you do is you recognize

01:47:07.320 --> 01:47:10.560
that this feeling is correlated to this

01:47:10.560 --> 01:47:12.119
kind of situation

01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:14.760
so when you enter that kind of situation

01:47:14.760 --> 01:47:17.639
when the feeling comes up you know in

01:47:17.639 --> 01:47:20.400
what kind of situation you're in

01:47:20.400 --> 01:47:24.239
so it's a kind of expertise

01:47:24.239 --> 01:47:30.119
um so if you have a situation where

01:47:30.119 --> 01:47:32.179
um

01:47:32.699 --> 01:47:35.400
where just in general you grow up people

01:47:35.400 --> 01:47:37.920
lie to you right like sales person wise

01:47:37.920 --> 01:47:40.080
to your business and you have you

01:47:40.080 --> 01:47:42.360
develop this sense of what it feels like

01:47:42.360 --> 01:47:45.000
when someone's lying to you then you can

01:47:45.000 --> 01:47:47.699
go into an interview with someone who's

01:47:47.699 --> 01:47:48.900
not

01:47:48.900 --> 01:47:51.900
really lying to you in the sense they

01:47:51.900 --> 01:47:53.400
want to lie to you but they're deceiving

01:47:53.400 --> 01:47:55.739
themselves and you can say that this is

01:47:55.739 --> 01:47:58.739
 because what's arising me is

01:47:58.739 --> 01:48:00.659
that same feeling that always comes when

01:48:00.659 --> 01:48:02.580
I'm being lied to

01:48:02.580 --> 01:48:04.380
so you're not following in your

01:48:04.380 --> 01:48:06.659
intuition you're using it as an

01:48:06.659 --> 01:48:09.780
information tool as radar but you have

01:48:09.780 --> 01:48:12.119
to cultivate it and you make mistakes

01:48:12.119 --> 01:48:14.119
and then sometimes

01:48:14.119 --> 01:48:16.980
even like what I said the biomarker

01:48:16.980 --> 01:48:18.540
being lied to

01:48:18.540 --> 01:48:21.360
now you can make a discernment but this

01:48:21.360 --> 01:48:23.880
feels a little different when I what's

01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:26.040
really happening is the guys deceiving

01:48:26.040 --> 01:48:28.199
himself and deceiving me at the same

01:48:28.199 --> 01:48:30.480
time it's in the realm of

01:48:30.480 --> 01:48:35.159
the not real but and so it's basically

01:48:35.159 --> 01:48:37.020
understanding that the body has

01:48:37.020 --> 01:48:39.600
biomarkers for different types of

01:48:39.600 --> 01:48:42.119
situations and you can get really good

01:48:42.119 --> 01:48:44.880
but David see David didn't start off by

01:48:44.880 --> 01:48:46.580
knowing exactly where I was going to go

01:48:46.580 --> 01:48:49.380
but he's been paying attention to his

01:48:49.380 --> 01:48:52.199
body so he knows when I'm here Sandra

01:48:52.199 --> 01:48:54.600
does the same thing they know what the

01:48:54.600 --> 01:48:56.460
next logical step is because they can

01:48:56.460 --> 01:48:58.440
Intuit there's some pattern that I've

01:48:58.440 --> 01:49:00.900
been carrying over that neither of us

01:49:00.900 --> 01:49:03.600
could say that he can tell he can tell

01:49:03.600 --> 01:49:05.280
Lord now we're at this crossfields and

01:49:05.280 --> 01:49:06.900
Bonnie usually does that

01:49:06.900 --> 01:49:11.940
so it's he then and and so

01:49:11.940 --> 01:49:14.159
um it's a it's a kind of knowing that's

01:49:14.159 --> 01:49:16.560
in your body that's very trustworthy and

01:49:16.560 --> 01:49:18.780
the thing is that

01:49:18.780 --> 01:49:21.179
and sometimes you're wrong and sometimes

01:49:21.179 --> 01:49:24.300
you know you're not sure and and you you

01:49:24.300 --> 01:49:27.659
have to you know run an experiment but

01:49:27.659 --> 01:49:29.400
but

01:49:29.400 --> 01:49:31.500
um that's what intuition is you can't

01:49:31.500 --> 01:49:33.840
really follow your intuition you have to

01:49:33.840 --> 01:49:36.360
listen to your intuition

01:49:36.360 --> 01:49:38.340
now

01:49:38.340 --> 01:49:41.100
how do you know if you're following your

01:49:41.100 --> 01:49:43.380
imagination well your intuition will

01:49:43.380 --> 01:49:45.480
tell you what it feels like to be

01:49:45.480 --> 01:49:47.580
imagining

01:49:47.580 --> 01:49:50.100
oh is this is this real or is it my

01:49:50.100 --> 01:49:51.780
imagination well there's a certain

01:49:51.780 --> 01:49:55.139
biomarker for your when you're imagining

01:49:55.139 --> 01:49:57.440
something

01:49:58.860 --> 01:50:00.239
right

01:50:00.239 --> 01:50:02.040
like

01:50:02.040 --> 01:50:04.980
like I have a opportunity like

01:50:04.980 --> 01:50:07.380
like to give an example I have enough to

01:50:07.380 --> 01:50:10.080
like go to Italy right

01:50:10.080 --> 01:50:12.659
I have a little intuition like logically

01:50:12.659 --> 01:50:16.619
it's like duh just go right

01:50:16.619 --> 01:50:18.540
but I've had this sort of weird feeling

01:50:18.540 --> 01:50:21.060
about it and

01:50:21.060 --> 01:50:23.820
one thing came up was like oh no I want

01:50:23.820 --> 01:50:25.320
to travel someplace in nature and that

01:50:25.320 --> 01:50:28.380
was kind of like a little piece

01:50:28.380 --> 01:50:29.159
um

01:50:29.159 --> 01:50:31.560
but I'm still like it's still like I

01:50:31.560 --> 01:50:32.940
don't know like I still feel weird about

01:50:32.940 --> 01:50:35.520
it and just questioning whether

01:50:35.520 --> 01:50:38.040
yeah that feeling is maybe part of it is

01:50:38.040 --> 01:50:40.679
just my imagination

01:50:40.679 --> 01:50:43.380
yeah I don't know no you can't really

01:50:43.380 --> 01:50:45.719
tell unless you do enough experiments I

01:50:45.719 --> 01:50:46.980
mean you have to know when your

01:50:46.980 --> 01:50:48.659
intuition is wrong you know what I mean

01:50:48.659 --> 01:50:49.980
you can't

01:50:49.980 --> 01:50:52.380
you can't really tell

01:50:52.380 --> 01:50:54.540
um you have to pay attention and then

01:50:54.540 --> 01:50:58.320
you have to act and see and and build

01:50:58.320 --> 01:51:01.500
that build that muscle so

01:51:01.500 --> 01:51:03.119
um

01:51:03.119 --> 01:51:04.800
some people are more intuitive than

01:51:04.800 --> 01:51:06.119
others because they've been paying

01:51:06.119 --> 01:51:08.820
attention since they were children

01:51:08.820 --> 01:51:11.460
they're highly sensitive to these things

01:51:11.460 --> 01:51:14.780
because they've been they've been

01:51:14.960 --> 01:51:17.280
understanding the world that way since

01:51:17.280 --> 01:51:18.840
they were children

01:51:18.840 --> 01:51:22.440
and a lot of kids at risk have a highly

01:51:22.440 --> 01:51:24.480
intuitive because they had to pay

01:51:24.480 --> 01:51:27.780
attention to the biomarkers is is he he

01:51:27.780 --> 01:51:29.880
comes home is he mad I better know

01:51:29.880 --> 01:51:31.980
before I find out

01:51:31.980 --> 01:51:34.260
I need an intuition of whether he's mad

01:51:34.260 --> 01:51:37.880
I need to be able to smell it

01:51:42.179 --> 01:51:44.520
because he says come over sit on my lap

01:51:44.520 --> 01:51:46.679
is he in a playful mood or is he gonna

01:51:46.679 --> 01:51:49.380
fondle me I gotta I gotta know so people

01:51:49.380 --> 01:51:50.820
who are highly intuitive is because

01:51:50.820 --> 01:51:53.100
they've had they've had to

01:51:53.100 --> 01:51:55.880
they've had to uh

01:51:55.880 --> 01:51:58.739
use that very well

01:51:58.739 --> 01:51:59.940
um

01:51:59.940 --> 01:52:02.760
um this is also by the way that that

01:52:02.760 --> 01:52:06.239
animals and all

01:52:06.239 --> 01:52:08.420
um um

01:52:08.820 --> 01:52:10.260
um

01:52:10.260 --> 01:52:12.420
oppressed people in society are

01:52:12.420 --> 01:52:13.679
intuitive

01:52:13.679 --> 01:52:16.500
because they have to they have to

01:52:16.500 --> 01:52:18.719
they have to use their intuition to

01:52:18.719 --> 01:52:21.199
survive

01:52:22.320 --> 01:52:25.739
and why people Elites and who have a lot

01:52:25.739 --> 01:52:29.100
of power they have no intuition

01:52:29.100 --> 01:52:31.619
they have Instinct instinct to kill and

01:52:31.619 --> 01:52:33.960
this that but it's always

01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:38.780
it's it's it's not picking up on things

01:52:44.460 --> 01:52:47.219
okay my friend sorry about the dog no no

01:52:47.219 --> 01:52:50.159
he's now he's really quiet but

01:52:50.159 --> 01:52:53.480
I don't know what was wrong with them

01:52:54.659 --> 01:52:58.739
he was he he was imagining being outside

01:52:58.739 --> 01:53:02.420
instead of locked in the room

01:53:03.360 --> 01:53:05.400
those intuitions were wrong you didn't

01:53:05.400 --> 01:53:07.580
get out

01:53:07.580 --> 01:53:10.619
okay my friends excellent I know it was

01:53:10.619 --> 01:53:12.659
a little bit of conceptual but it's good

01:53:12.659 --> 01:53:15.560
we got it in there

01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:21.619
thank you